self driving cars for real?

[CosmicCowboy]

I think the manufacturers will have self driving cars figured out (technically) long before the legal system figures out how to deal with them. Those deep pockets building those cars aren't going to want to be involved in litigation every time a self driving car is in an accident but how is it the occupants fault if the car gets in an accident? Thomas J Henry is gonna get filthy stinking rich suing Google. If I have a BAC of 2.0 and get in my self driving car to go home is it a DWI? There are tons of legal issues that will have to be resolved before self driving cars for the public become a reality.

[ChumpDumper]

Google says 2019.

I believe them.

[DMX7]

I enjoy driving... I don't want a self driving car.

[CosmicCowboy]

Google says 2019.

I believe them.

I believe they will have self driving down technically by 2019. Seriously doubt that all 50 states will have all the legal issues settled by 2019.

[CosmicCowboy]

I enjoy driving... I don't want a self driving car.

Me too. It will be like a great video game passing all those speed limit driving cars. Lets face it...google isn't gonna program them to drive limit + 10.

[SpursforSix]

I believe they will have self driving down technically by 2019. Seriously doubt that all 50 states will have all the legal issues settled by 2019.

There's no way. They'll pad enough pockets to make sure they're covered. But this is different from having the technical side down pat. I don't know how they can get around the vehicle swerving one object to possibly run into a crowd of people further down. Or what if it's got to choose between hitting a white or black person. It'll be a clusterfuck. Not to mention all the idiot drivers that might try to swerve and force the Google car to fuck up.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

While, I am not surprised that dimwit OP is surprised this discussion is about 5 years old at this point.

SURPRISE!

[CosmicCowboy]

While, I am not surprised that dimwit OP is surprised this discussion is about 5 years old at this point.

SURPRISE!

Go fuck yourself.

Still not settled after 5 years too, asshole.

[CosmicCowboy]

There's no way. They'll pad enough pockets to make sure they're covered. But this is different from having the technical side down pat. I don't know how they can get around the vehicle swerving one object to possibly run into a crowd of people further down. Or what if it's got to choose between hitting a white or black person. It'll be a clusterfuck. Not to mention all the idiot drivers that might try to swerve and force the Google car to fuck up.

Yeah...pump faking google cars will be a new sport.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Go fuck yourself.

Still not settled after 5 years too, asshole.

:lol Your legal and ethical questions are about 5 years old in Congress. They are in the information gathering stage. Nice job keeping up.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I imagine there will eventually be automated car lanes and the like. You guys aren't particularly imaginative.

[CosmicCowboy]

:lol Your legal and ethical questions are about 5 years old in Congress. They are in the information gathering stage. Nice job keeping up.

I posted it because it is a topic of interest, not that I just thought about it.

and you say CONGRESS is dealing with it? Information gathering?

:lmao

Last I checked driving regulations were left to the States.

[SpursforSix]

Yeah...pump faking google cars will be a new sport.

Not to mention the damn motorcycles zooming between cars. They only way this will work is to mandate that everyone have a Goolge car and they're all networked. Along with every pedistrian carrying an Android device. Or maybe just Google chip everyone.

[CosmicCowboy]

I imagine there will eventually be automated car lanes and the like. You guys aren't particularly imaginative.

What you imagine is what you imagine. Dedicated lanes (taken from existing lanes) are a LONG way off and in most cases there isn't room or budgets for additional lanes.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I posted it because it is a topic of interest, not that I just thought about it.

and you say CONGRESS is dealing with it? Information gathering?

:lmao

Last I checked driving regulations were left to the States.

If you cannot figure out how transport wouldn't require federal regulation as well then you are about as dumb as I think you are.

States first started passing legislation back in 2013. They started polling in 2011. It's all but fait accompli.

for reals!

[CosmicCowboy]

If you cannot figure out how transport wouldn't require federal regulation as well then you are about as dumb as I think you are.

States first started passing legislation back in 2013. They started polling in 2011. It's all but fait accompli.

for reals!

Funny you think I'm so dumb. I probably paid more in taxes this year than your net worth, mamas boy.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Funny you think I'm so dumb. I probably paid more in taxes this year than your net worth, mamas boy.

:lol Big timing on the irrelevant and unprovable. Typical CC account nonsense.

You still couldn't figure it out.

[CosmicCowboy]

Fuzzy sounds like the prof from the worthless "Psychology for Engineers" class I had to take in College. He swore by the year 2000 Texans would all use mass transit and not own cars.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy sounds like the prof from the worthless "Psychology for Engineers" class I had to take in College. He swore by the year 2000 Texans would all use mass transit and not own cars.

I just said that the news about self driving cars and the legal and ethical questions involved is 5 years old.

You're dumb and extrapolating that from what I said which is not surprising but you're just wrong. I'm well aware of the political circumstance in Texas just as I was aware of self driving cars for real 5 years ago.

[ElNono]

I enjoy driving... I don't want a self driving car.

I hate driving... once they work out the kinks, I'm probably getting one, tbh...

[DarrinS]

http://www.cnet.com/news/google-self-driving-car-partly-responsible-for-its-first-accident/

[DMX7]

I hate driving... once they work out the kinks, I'm probably getting one, tbh...

If you had a cool car you would like it. When you have a Corolla it sucks. I have a cool car, and I love driving.

[baseline bum]

I hate driving... once they work out the kinks, I'm probably getting one, tbh...

Yeah, driving blows, even in San Antonio where the traffic is pretty light.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If you had a cool car you would like it. When you have a Corolla it sucks. I have a cool car, and I love driving.

I imagine 'cool cars' will eventually be able to do both.

[DMX7]

I imagine 'cool cars' will eventually be able to do both.

Yes, I assume all self-driving cars would have a manual mode.

[DarrinS]

I'll take the human visual cortex over sensors and CV algorithms, tbh.

[ElNono]

If you had a cool car you would like it. When you have a Corolla it sucks. I have a cool car, and I love driving.

Previous car was a Benz E series, now I drive a Lexus... Also drove a Porsche 911 quite a bit... I just don't like driving, has nothing to do with the ride.

[DarrinS]

Previous car was a Benz E series, now I drive a Lexus... Also drove a Porsche 911 quite a bit... I just don't like driving, has nothing to do with the ride.

Why not take public transportation?

[ElNono]

Why not take public transportation?

I do when I go to Manhattan, but around here it's drive or drive... :\

[ElNono]

Yeah, driving blows, even in San Antonio where the traffic is pretty light.

Some people find it relaxing, I don't at all. I just want to get to point B and move on. I guess it's just me.

[DarrinS]

I do when I go to Manhattan, but around here it's drive or drive... :\

You spend a lot on cars for someone who hates driving.

[baseline bum]

Some people find it relaxing, I don't at all. I just want to get to point B and move on. I guess it's just me.

I love driving outside of cities, that's fucking awesome. I don't know how anyone could find city driving relaxing though.

[DMX7]

E Series and most Lexus sedans are really passengers' cars if you ask me. Modern 911s are awesome driver's cars... the thought of not liking to drive these is almost sacrilegious to me.

[ElNono]

You spend a lot on cars for someone who hates driving.

The 911 was a great car when I was single :)

The rest simply because I appreciate the comfort. Sometimes I gotta drive down to Philly, which is about a 1:30 drive, and I much prefer a comfy ride.

But about your public transportation comment, I do think there's some of that. I grew up using public transportation. Only really started driving here in the US.

[Wild Cobra]

I think the manufacturers will have self driving cars figured out (technically) long before the legal system figures out how to deal with them. Those deep pockets building those cars aren't going to want to be involved in litigation every time a self driving car is in an accident but how is it the occupants fault if the car gets in an accident? Thomas J Henry is gonna get filthy stinking rich suing Google. If I have a BAC of 2.0 and get in my self driving car to go home is it a DWI? There are tons of legal issues that will have to be resolved before self driving cars for the public become a reality.

There was a lawyer TV series that had an episode with a self driving car. Turns out, since it was too passive, and waited for everyone at a four way stop, as other cars didn't come to a full stop. They made it a bit more aggressive like a typical driver, and the car caused an accident...

Sure, not real life, and "it was in the script."

But... How do you really work out all the problems?

[baseline bum]

The 911 was a great car when I was single :)


And now you're double? LOL fat Mexican.

[ElNono]

E Series and most Lexus sedans are really passengers' cars if you ask me. Modern 911s are awesome driver's cars... the thought of not liking to drive these is almost sacrilegious to me.

My associate has two 911, a 1984 which is a classic now, and a 956 type. He goes to the track, etc. I'm just not into cars like that, but I know people that really appreciate that stuff.

[ElNono]

And now you're double? LOL fat Mexican.

:lol now I'm married. At least I have a Lexus, and not a dodge caravan, tbh

[Wild Cobra]

:lol now I'm married. At least I have a Lexus, and not a dodge caravan, tbh

Why not support your new homeland of unionized workers, and buy something made in the USA?

[ElNono]

Why not support your new homeland of unionized workers, and buy something made in the USA?

I just had a great deal on it... plus, don't they manufacture those in Toyota plants in San Antonio?

[Wild Cobra]

I just had a great deal on it... plus, don't they manufacture those in Toyota plans in San Antonio?

Hard to say. They do both for some import brand names. The only way to know is if the cars registration number starts with a "1," "4," or "5".

1A to 10 = USA
2A to 20 = Canada
3A to 37 = Mexico
38 to 30 = Cayman Islands
4A to 50 = USA
...
8A to 8E = Argentina
...
JA to J0 = Japan
...
KL to KR = S. Korea
...
LA = China
...
SA to SM = UK
...
WA to W0 = West Germany

etc...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_identification_number#Country_codes

I was surprised to see "4" and "5" for the USA. These are probably things like Caterpillar, Freightliner, etc. Maybe motorcycles too.

[ElNono]

VIN starts with 2T, actually. Canada?

[Wild Cobra]

VIN starts with 2T, actually

Wow.

Made in Canada. That surprises me, for a Lexus.

At least they are part of the USA... Sort of...

I'm OK with buying cars from Canada. They have a similar economy to ours. I still buy USA when I can, but the Z28 and WS6 I bought were both made in Canada.

[SpursforSix]

I love driving outside of cities, that's fucking awesome. I don't know how anyone could find city driving relaxing though.

A few gin and tonics with some cool tunes. Pretty chill.

[SpursforSix]

There was a lawyer TV series that had an episode with a self driving car. Turns out, since it was too passive, and waited for everyone at a four way stop, as other cars didn't come to a full stop. They made it a bit more aggressive like a typical driver, and the car caused an accident...

Sure, not real life, and "it was in the script."

But... How do you really work out all the problems?

Knight Rider. But he wasn't an attorney iirc.

[hater]

Lol at the old guys hanging on to their antiquated steering wheels. I'm sure when cars were invented, some old geezers said, but I enjoy walking.

Truth is people will be able to do amazing things while in a self.driving car:
Brush teeth
Put on makeup
Shave
Change clothes
Read a book
Watch a movie
Skype with someone
Knock some boots
Work
Take a nap


The possibilities are endless. U damn right I'm getting one. Possibilities are endless.

[DarrinS]

Lol at the old guys hanging on to their antiquated steering wheels. I'm sure when cars were invented, some old geezers said, but I enjoy walking.

Truth is people will be able to do amazing things while in a self.driving car:
Brush teeth
Put on makeup
Shave
Change clothes
Read a book
Watch a movie
Skype with someone
Knock some boots
Work
Take a nap


The possibilities are endless. U damn right I'm getting one. Possibilities are endless.


You go ahead and do those things.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLOG1bw3vSM


Lmao at people out there experimenting with this shit

[DarrinS]

Elnono,

What do you think of this algorithm? If Tesla can't see the lanes, it will dutifully follow the vehicle in front of it.

Wow. Just wow.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTtLGP4cRaQ

[DarrinS]

Big product liability lawsuits ahead.

[hater]

You go ahead and do those things.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLOG1bw3vSM


Lmao at people out there experimenting with this shit

um, we are not even at Beta stage yet of a "real self driving" car

:rolleyes


I am talking about in 5-10 years from now. WE WILL BE ABLE TO DO THOSE THINGS. ENDLESS POSSIBILITIES

[ElNono]

Elnono,

What do you think of this algorithm? If Tesla can't see the lanes, it will dutifully follow the vehicle in front of it.

Wow. Just wow.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTtLGP4cRaQ

From what I read, Tesla's algo is the least developed one. But there's a reason they don't advertise and sell this stuff yet as the real deal. AFAIK, the auto-pilot feature is really a toy with all sorts of disclaimers.

They have a ton of work ahead of them, tbh. Google apparently are the guys further ahead, and from what I've seen, they don't really just track lanes.

Like I said earlier, you don't wanna pick up the 1st gen of these things. Let them work out the kinks and pick it up later on.

[Wild Cobra]

I'll never trust one.

call me a control freak of you must...

[DarrinS]

From what I read, Tesla's algo is the least developed one. But there's a reason they don't advertise and sell this stuff yet as the real deal. AFAIK, the auto-pilot feature is really a toy with all sorts of disclaimers.

They have a ton of work ahead of them, tbh. Google apparently are the guys further ahead, and from what I've seen, they don't really just track lanes.

Like I said earlier, you don't wanna pick up the 1st gen of these things. Let them work out the kinks and pick it up later on.


I'm with WC on this one. I don't think I'd ever fully trust the technology. I'm fine with adaptive cruise control, but I don't want it steering for me.

[DarrinS]

Isn't Tesla exposing themselves to major liability risk?

[ElNono]

Isn't Tesla exposing themselves to major liability risk?

Depends on what you agree to when you click the "Accept" button, tbh... I would suspect the turn-on button is behind heaps of disclaimers.

[DarrinS]

Depends on what you agree to when you click the "Accept" button, tbh... I would suspect the turn-on button is behind heaps of disclaimers.

Makes sense

[ElNono]

I'm with WC on this one. I don't think I'd ever fully trust the technology. I'm fine with adaptive cruise control, but I don't want it steering for me.

IMO, this has to be reliable or it's never gonna work. So if it's ever offered as a mainstream thing, it gotta be at that point, and really, at that stage it's no different than autopilot on a plane.

Frankly, humans aren't all that great driving either. And I don't mean grandma in front driving 20mph on a 45mph street. I'm talking the casualty count of car accidents every year.

I actually expect people to bitch when insurance companies start giving you a discount for using the auto-pilot instead of driving manually, tbh... that's coming.

I mean, this has to be good enough to allow even blind people to drive around (which, from a humanitarian aspect, it's pretty dope, IMO)

[ElNono]

Even my Lexus gives me a page of disclaimer before it lets me use the GPS. Worst car UI ever, tbh

[DarrinS]

IMO, this has to be reliable or it's never gonna work. So if it's ever offered as a mainstream thing, it gotta be at that point, and really, at that stage it's no different than autopilot on a plane.

Frankly, humans aren't all that great driving either. And I don't mean grandma in front driving 20mph on a 45mph street. I'm talking the casualty count of car accidents every year.

I actually expect people to bitch when insurance companies start giving you a discount for using the auto-pilot instead of driving manually, tbh... that's coming.

I mean, this has to be good enough to allow even blind people to drive around (which, from a humanitarian aspect, it's pretty dope, IMO)


Yeah, people suck at driving and have lousy reaction time, but are superior at recognizing an object. Something falls out of a truck or an animal runs across the road, there's no telling what some computer vision algorithm will make of it.

[ElNono]

Yeah, people suck at driving and have lousy reaction time, but are superior at recognizing an object. Something falls out of a truck or an animal runs across the road, there's no telling what some computer vision algorithm will make of it.

It'll probably make it's an obstacle. Much more likely to stop in time or dodge than your average human.

But sensors do play a major role in all this. You don't want a car to be swerving because of a plastic bag flying on the road.

So, yeah, it's challenging. But this isn't new either. Robotics have been dealing with a lot of this stuff for a while, even more complicated stuff like uneven terrain, etc.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yeah, people suck at driving and have lousy reaction time, but are superior at recognizing an object. Something falls out of a truck or an animal runs across the road, there's no telling what some computer vision algorithm will make of it.

:lol I'm sure the designers never thought of this. . . .

You don't even know what the algorithm is. You just fear it.

[DarrinS]

It'll probably make it's an obstacle. Much more likely to stop in time or dodge than your average human.

But sensors do play a major role in all this. You don't want a car to be swerving because of a plastic bag flying on the road.

So, yeah, it's challenging. But this isn't new either. Robotics have been dealing with a lot of this stuff for a while, even more complicated stuff like uneven terrain, etc.


The robotics comparison doesn't give me much more confidence.

This one looks drunk.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVlhMGQgDkY


And why is the engineer being such a dick? :lmao

[ElNono]

The robotics comparison doesn't give me much more confidence.

This one looks drunk.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVlhMGQgDkY


And why is the engineer being such a dick? :lmao

lol...

I was referring to more akin robotics like the Opportunity or Curiosity Mars rovers, when it comes to object tracking and obstacle avoidance...

[DarrinS]

:lol I'm sure the designers never thought of this. . . .

You don't even know what the algorithm is. You just fear it.

Wrong. I'm actively developing computer vision algorithms, so I can speak with experience. They're very good at some tasks, surprisingly poor at others.

[DarrinS]

Fuzzy is right about one thing -- I do fear these algorithms. But it's a fear based on an understanding of the technology's current limitations.

[ElNono]

Wrong. I'm actively developing computer vision algorithms, so I can speak with experience. They're very good at some tasks, surprisingly poor at others.

I've been itching to play around with Rprop on OpenCV, but haven't had the time. I read Google making some really nice advances with that + GPU hardware, both on voice and image recognition.

[baseline bum]

The robotics comparison doesn't give me much more confidence.

This one looks drunk.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVlhMGQgDkY


And why is the engineer being such a dick? :lmao

I was hoping that robot was going to punch him at 1:28

[DarrinS]

I've been itching to play around with Rprop on OpenCV, but haven't had the time. I read Google making some really nice advances with that + GPU hardware, both on voice and image recognition.


There are some good libraries out there, like OpenCV. Kitware has some good stuff, too.

I'm sure Google has the best people in the world working on these problems. I remember when they had to scrub all Google Earth images to blur out all license plates and signs. No telling how long that took, but it was pretty impressive.

[DarrinS]

I was hoping that robot was going to punch him at 1:28

What about 2:06?

Robot like "Oh no you didn't!" :lol

[baseline bum]

What about 2:06?

Robot like "Oh no you didn't!" :lol

I like when the robot says fuck you, I'm going home at the end. :lol

[ElNono]

That robot is pretty amazing, tbh... Amazon warehouse workers probably shitting their pants right now...

[DarrinS]

I like when the robot says fuck you, I'm going home at the end. :lol

He's like, fuck this job lifting boxes -- I ain't even getting paid.

AI and robots freak me out a little. There's nothing preventing a malicious robot. Drones still have man-in-the-loop, but it won't be long before fully autonomous.

[DarrinS]

That robot is pretty amazing, tbh... Amazon warehouse workers probably shitting their pants right now...

That video is a tutorial on how to defeat them. Only need a broom. :lol

[ElNono]

That video is a tutorial on how to defeat them. Only need a broom. :lol

"In the good old days, robots were programmed to punch back. Sad!"

[DarrinS]

"In the good old days, robots were programmed to punch back. Sad!"

Just needs the right code, tbh. Asimov's laws? Laughable

[boutons_deux]

Driven cars vs self-driving cars? driven cars will eventually be seen like horse and buggy. And seriously disadvantaged by tax and insurance.

you adolescents who think "my car is my dick", "my gun is my dick", "I can drive drunk and/or at high speeds safely", "my lifted, over-powered, noisy pipes truck is my dick" will become even more ridiculous in a few years.

you will order a car, it shows up by itself, you get in, and it drives to your destination. road infrastructure will be modified to assist self-driving cars (if Repugs don't obstruct, and they will surely try. Fucking up is ALL the Repugs do).

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wrong. I'm actively developing computer vision algorithms, so I can speak with experience. They're very good at some tasks, surprisingly poor at others.

:lol Even if that were true, I have spoken to you on modeling and system integration before in the climate threads and you have demonstrated not the first clue.

So far in this discussion, you have googled up an article on Tesla and waved your hands. Outside of that we have the above cliche that is so meaningless it can be applied to anything.

So please outside of incredulity and your assistance on being an authority do you have any basis at all whatsoever?

[DarrinS]

:lol Even if that were true, I have spoken to you on modeling and system integration before in the climate threads and you have demonstrated not the first clue.

So far in this discussion, you have googled up an article on Tesla and waved your hands. Outside of that we have the above cliche that is so meaningless it can be applied to anything.

So please outside of incredulity and your assistance on being an authority do you have any basis at all whatsoever?


Are you like this in real life?

[RandomGuy]

I think the manufacturers will have self driving cars figured out (technically) long before the legal system figures out how to deal with them. Those deep pockets building those cars aren't going to want to be involved in litigation every time a self driving car is in an accident but how is it the occupants fault if the car gets in an accident? Thomas J Henry is gonna get filthy stinking rich suing Google. If I have a BAC of 2.0 and get in my self driving car to go home is it a DWI? There are tons of legal issues that will have to be resolved before self driving cars for the public become a reality.

A bit on the legal issues:
http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/02/23/467836500/should-self-driving-cars-have-drivers-ready-to-take-over

I wonder if you get to sue the software company if you get runned over and hurticated.

[RandomGuy]

He's like, fuck this job lifting boxes -- I ain't even getting paid.

AI and robots freak me out a little. There's nothing preventing a malicious robot. Drones still have man-in-the-loop, but it won't be long before fully autonomous.

X-47. Already there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_X-47B

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Rc2k6G8LuqY/maxresdefault.jpg

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--BGbvldqR--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/hwqpwt7tuohuy5fbd8eq.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Wrong. I'm actively developing computer vision algorithms, so I can speak with experience. They're very good at some tasks, surprisingly poor at others.

Oddly enough this is where biology and technology collide. Studies of how human brains think are providing insight to software engineers and vice versa.

[boutons_deux]

one of the infrastructure changes I expect is some kind of computer vision/laser-friendly/RFID markers on the road, road-side items, and on cars.

The austerity freaks Repugs will say "we're broke, we can't spend money on the 99%"

but we can spend this

Staggering toll: Car crashes cost $871 billion a year

The total includes $277 billion in economic costs – nearly $900 for each person living in the USA – and $594 billion in societal harm from the loss of life and the pain and decreased quality of life because of injuries.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/29/steep-economic-toll-of-crashes/9715893/

[DarrinS]

Oddly enough this is where biology and technology collide. Studies of how human brains think are providing insight to software engineers and vice versa.

There's no doubt that a computer would have faster reaction time than a human, but would it make better decisions? The technology will be ready, eventually.

[hater]

It's not a matter of IF but just a matter of time when cars will drive circles around us old geezers. Probably 5-10 years.

Can't wait to see robocars competing and winning every single circuit race vs slow stupid humans :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

Driven cars vs self-driving cars? driven cars will eventually be seen like horse and buggy. And seriously disadvantaged by tax and insurance.

you adolescents who think "my car is my dick", "my gun is my dick", "I can drive drunk and/or at high speeds safely", "my lifted, over-powered, noisy pipes truck is my dick" will become even more ridiculous in a few years.

you will order a car, it shows up by itself, you get in, and it drives to your destination. road infrastructure will be modified to assist self-driving cars (if Repugs don't obstruct, and they will surely try. Fucking up is ALL the Repugs do).

Ill take my truck dick over your tiny Internet warrior dick any day.

[boutons_deux]

Ill take my truck dick over your tiny Internet warrior dick any day.

proving your identity, dick are defined by your dick truck

[hater]

:lol bouttocks has a point this time. :lol old geezers will be driving miss daisy and get laughed at while modern humans do amazing things while in their self driving cars.

But will say this. Research studies have shown young people are not into cars as much anymore. Fewer are applying for licenses and more and more prefer services like ride share our uber. Your time is coming car nuts :lol

[RandomGuy]

There's no doubt that a computer would have faster reaction time than a human, but would it make better decisions? The technology will be ready, eventually.

35,000 plus Americans die on the road every year.

I have no doubt that computers and software could do better. None. Zip. Zilch, etc.

[DarrinS]

35,000 plus Americans die on the road every year.

I have no doubt that computers and software could do better. None. Zip. Zilch, etc.


If they interpret the environment correctly, I agree.

[RandomGuy]

If they interpret the environment correctly, I agree.

Yeah. It is rather obvious that the application would have to be fairly limited for the first few years. Have to keep the environment limited with fewer variables, i.e. large freeways.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Are you like this in real life?

Are you going to add something to the discussion other than your supposed appeal to authority and meaningless cliches?

[DarrinS]

Are you going to add something to the discussion other than your supposed appeal to authority and meaningless cliches?

I already did. At least, with those willing to have a civil discussion and not accuse me of being a liar.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I already did. At least, with those willing to have a civil discussion and not accuse me of being a liar.

I never said you were a liar. I just said that you have given no indication that you have any expertise outside of your claim.

You tried to reverse engineer the algorithm from the tesla article and got as far as lanes and following the car in front. Additionally, as EN was kind enough to point out they are the least advanced. That tells me you have no meaningful practical experience in what the industry is trying to do. Instead you are resorting to google fu.

[DarrinS]

I never said you were a liar. I just said that you have given no indication that you have any expertise outside of your claim.

You tried to reverse engineer the algorithm from the tesla article and got as far as lanes and following the car in front. Additionally, as EN was kind enough to point out they are the least advanced. That tells me you have no meaningful practical experience in what the industry is trying to do. Instead you are resorting to google fu.


I didn't claim expertise in self-driving algorithms -- just familiarity with computer vision algos. And I didn't try to reverse-engineer anything. I just pointed out what the Tesla driver was saying.

[DarrinS]

And Fuzzy, what specific expertise do you bring to this discussion?

[DarrinS]

Wrong. I'm actively developing computer vision algorithms, so I can speak with experience. They're very good at some tasks, surprisingly poor at others.


:lol Even if that were true, I have spoken to you on modeling and system integration before in the climate threads and you have demonstrated not the first clue.

So far in this discussion, you have googled up an article on Tesla and waved your hands. Outside of that we have the above cliche that is so meaningless it can be applied to anything.

So please outside of incredulity and your assistance on being an authority do you have any basis at all whatsoever?


Glad you didn't call me a liar, tho. :lol

[ElNono]

It's true that computer vision isn't "outstanding" at this point, but there's more to it than just that. Don't forget the Google car also includes laser and radar sensors, and uses GPS navigation also for situational awareness.

I wouldn't be surprised if additional sensors are added. I can see IR sensors or even heat sensors to be potentially useful.

But there's no doubt it's a big challenge.

[DarrinS]

It's true that computer vision isn't "outstanding" at this point, but there's more to it than just that. Don't forget the Google car also includes laser and radar sensors, and uses GPS navigation also for situational awareness.

I wouldn't be surprised if additional sensors are added. I can see IR sensors or even heat sensors to be potentially useful.

But there's no doubt it's a big challenge.


I include LASER, LIDAR iR, etc. in computer vision technology. They are just active as opposed to passive signals.

[DarrinS]

Based on the complexity of the problem and current technology, it's pretty amazing that they have stuff that kinda works right now. I'd just have my hands very close to the wheel. :lol

[ElNono]

I include LASER, LIDAR iR, etc. in computer vision technology. They are just active as opposed to passive signals.

It's just makes sense for something like this. You don't need to have a camera doing image recognition for side objects when all you need is a sonar.

[CosmicCowboy]

My wife's Mercedes knows the difference between a yellow line and a white line. It gives her a "bump" if she gets close to a yellow one.

[DarrinS]

http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/newsrelease/consumer-watchdog-tells-congress-not-grant-safety-exemptions-self-driving-robot-cars

[Winehole23]

the self-driving Uber that killed a pedestrian disabled the on-board emergency braking system:


As to why the software did not engage the brakes on its own, NTSB noted that this passive approach is actually an intentional part of the design. The agency explained that the vehicle, a modified 2017 Volvo XC90, comes "factory equipped" with automatic emergency braking — but that Uber's system disables this function and others when it's in use.https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/24/614200117/ntsb-uber-self-driving-car-had-disabled-emergency-brake-system-before-fatal-cras

[Winehole23]

"According to Uber," the agency said, "emergency braking maneuvers are not enabled while the vehicle is under computer control, to reduce the potential for erratic vehicle behavior. The vehicle operator is relied on to intervene and take action. The system is not designed to alert the operator."

[Pavlov]

Disabling the safety equipment in your car isn't a flaw, it's a feature!

[Winehole23]

transportation monopoly on a global scale would be quite a prize, but at some point you'd think investors would get tired of flushing billions down the toilet:


The critical characteristic of ridesharing companies (such as US based Uber and Lyft, or Asian based Didi, Grab or Ola) has nothing to do with smartphone apps or competitive advantage or operational efficiency. It is the fact that they are backed by billions in cash from venture capitalists who have been willing to subsidize years of massive losses. Instead of consumers choosing the most efficient car service, those subsidies led them to choose the company that didn’t charge them for the actual cost of the service, and provided far more capacity than could be economically justified. Instead of funding the companies with the strongest sustainable competitive advantage, those subsidies led investors to fund the companies with the artificially inflated growth rates that suggested a path to quasi-monopoly market dominance.


Under private ownership, the claims that the ridesharing companies had created unprecedented levels of economic value ($70 billion for Uber, $15 billion for Lyft) had never been subject to any broad-based analyst or investor scrutiny. This series has argued that the unprecedented accomplishment of ridesharing is that its entire valuation was manufactured out of thin air. The valuation of other large Silicon Valley based companies (Amazon, Facebook) may be seriously inflated, but they had clearly established legitimate economic foundations, including powerful product and operational innovations, profits and strong cash flow.

This series has documented that Uber has no economic foundation, aside from its predatory use of billions in subsidies. None of its claimed technological innovations allowed it to produce car service at lower cost than incumbents, or create sustainable advantages over future competitors. It would still require billions in new efficiencies to reach operational breakeven, and billions more to economically justify the funding its investors provided
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/03/hubert-horan-can-uber-ever-deliver-part-eighteen-lyfts-ipo-prospectus-tells-investors-no-idea-ridesharing-ever-profitable.html

[Winehole23]

Hubert Horan's takedown of the Lyft IPO prospectus is ruthless.

[CosmicCowboy]

Hubert Horan's takedown of the Lyft IPO prospectus is ruthless.

thanks for that link.

[boutons_deux]

U been repeatedly losing $4B / year

L been repeatedly losing $1B / year

Where will U/L get the revenue to go profitable?

============

2017 Uber Driver Survey Results: Earnings, Satisfaction, and Demographics

https://therideshareguy.com/rsg-2017-survey-results-driver-earnings-satisfaction-and-demographics/

Drivers love to think their gross is what they make, minus gas, and badly underestimate expenses.

IRS, other orgs place TCO of car ownership at $0.50 - $0.60 / mile.

[Winehole23]

thanks for that link.most welcome, CC

[CosmicCowboy]

speaking of Uber/Lyft, I went to Fleetwood Mac at the Erwin center a few weeks ago. Those cocksuckers completely gridlocked all traffic including themselves. Lyft/Uber assholes were three deep on the 35 access road at Red River waiting for pickups and nobody could move.

[midnightpulp]

Heh. Just wrote about these in the AOC thread. One of the biggest vaporware situations of our time.


While on the self-driving car subject, one of the main criticisms of my original AI winter post was that I omitted Waymo from my discussion, them being the unquestionable leader in autonomy. This criticism was a bit unjustified in that I did include and discussed Waymo extensively in my other posts [1], but in these circumstances it appears prudent to mention what is going on there. Luckily a recent very good piece of investigative journalism shines some light on the matter. Apparently Waymo cars tested in Phoenix area had trouble with the most basic driving situations such as merging onto a freeway or making a left turn, [1].

Some independent observations appear to confirm this assessment. As much as I agree that Waymo is probably the most advanced in this game, this does not mean they are anywhere near to actually deploying anything seriously, and even further away from making such deployment economically feasible (contrary to what is suggested in occasional puff pieces such as this one). Aside from a periodic PR nonsense, Waymo does not seem to be revealing much, though recently some baffling reports of past shenanigans in google chauffeur (which later became Waymo) surfaced, involving Anthony Levandowski who is responsible for the whole Uber-Waymo fiasco. To add some comical aspect to the Waymo-Uber story, apparently an unrelated engineer managed to invalidate the patent that Uber got sued over, spending altogether 6000 dollars in fees. This is probably how much Uber payed their patent attorneys for a minute of their work...

https://blog.piekniewski.info/2018/10/29/ai-winter-update/

:lol And these test conditions are typically optimal.

[Will Hunting]

U been repeatedly losing $4B / year

L been repeatedly losing $1B / year

Where will U/L get the revenue to go profitable?

============

2017 Uber Driver Survey Results: Earnings, Satisfaction, and Demographics

https://therideshareguy.com/rsg-2017-survey-results-driver-earnings-satisfaction-and-demographics/

Drivers love to think their gross is what they make, minus gas, and badly underestimate expenses.

IRS, other orgs place TCO of car ownership at $0.50 - $0.60 / mile.



Yeah Uber is a ponzi scheme that targets drivers who don't know how to manage money.

I'm not sure why Uber doesn't just raise its prices. When I need to get to the airport and my alternatives are either pay out the ass for terminal parking or call some shitty taxi company with a moron behind the wheel who takes some longer route in order to increase the charge, I'm still calling Uber.

[Winehole23]

Great Cory Doctorow thread

1336317546862014464

1336317551958102020

[Winehole23]

Great Cory Doctorow thread

1336317546862014464

1336317551958102020Uber still shows no signs of profitability


Last Thursday, Uber announced a full year 2020 GAAP loss of $6.8 billion with a GAAP net margin of (-60%). As discussed in the context of the mid-year results presented in Part 23, [1] Covid-19 significantly reduced Uber revenues, just as the pandemic has devasted dozens of other urban services and transport businesses.

The huge ($4.7 billion, 43%) year-over-year decline in Uber’s core car service revenue was partially offset by a 93% increase in delivery revenue, but the central story here remains unchanged. Uber’s rides business never had any hope of earning sustainable profits, even without the virus. The delivery volumes added have substantially worse margins and have done nothing to create a path to future profitability.

2020 losses would have been much worse but for massive cost cutting. Uber abandoned its entire “Advanced Technology Group” (robotcars, flying cars, etc.). Uber’s investments in new businesses had been the centerpiece of its long-term growth narrative but had no profit potential, Uber had to provide $400 million in funding to the startup that took it off its hands. [2] It also slashed expenditures not directly supporting its current car service and delivery operations. Research and Development spending was reduced by $2.6 billion (54%) and overall operating expense fell 30%.
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/02/hubert-horan-can-uber-ever-deliver-part-twenty-four-uber-loses-another-6-8-billion.html

[Winehole23]

As previous posts in this series have discussed, Uber projections use deliberately misleading metrics. Discussions of the overall company use a measure improperly called “EBITDA” which excludes lots of expenses other than interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization, such as the $4.7 billion in stock-based employee compensation. Discussions of rides, delivery and other business segments use an “Adjusted EBITDA” measure which excludes a wide range of other expenses including marketing incentives, Uber’s IT infrastructure and all general corporate support functions.

One can determine the real meaning of these mislabeled metrics if one examines the footnotes in Uber’s SEC filings, but Uber knows reporters for mainstream business publications will not do that. These reporters continue to tell readers that “Uber has said it expects to become profitable by that measure by year-end” since they do not understand the difference between “profitability” and “contribution after a large portion of actual operating expenses have been excluded.” Nor do any of these reporters make any attempt to explain how Uber might achieve the billions in P&L improvements needed to achieve even these badly flawed “profit” targets.

Unsurprisingly for a company that has never made a profit in twelve years and cannot explain how it ever could become profitable in the future, Uber’s stock value has increased nearly 90% in the last three months.

[spurraider21]

Funny you think I'm so dumb. I probably paid more in taxes this year than your net worth, mamas boy.
:lol

[Winehole23]

Everyone knows the true test of human intelligence is after-tax income.

[Winehole23]

1555557014130069511

1555557017489707009

1555557019054227457

[Winehole23]

1555557030429081600

[vy65]

Uber drivers aren't Uber owners. There's no causation here.

[Winehole23]

Uber drivers aren't Uber owners. There's no causation here.not sure what you mean. the claims made are that:

1. Uber's Q1 claimed profits depend on financial chicanery
2. Uber's Q2 profits were made by ripping off drivers and fares to the extent that Uber is now worse than the system it broke.

[vy65]

not sure what you mean. the claims made are that:

1. Uber's Q1 claimed profits depend on financial chicanery
2. Uber's Q2 profits were made by ripping off drivers and fares to the extent that Uber is now worse than the system it broke.

"In Q2 alone, Uber transferred $2.8b from its drivers to its shareholders."

[Winehole23]

"In Q2 alone, Uber transferred $2.8b from its drivers to its shareholders."seems consistent to me, still not sure what your point is.

[hater]

6 years later and not even close to self driving cars :lmao

[hater]

It's not a matter of IF but just a matter of time when cars will drive circles around us old geezers. Probably 5-10 years.

Can't wait to see robocars competing and winning every single circuit race vs slow stupid humans :lol

I was off by 10 years imo

[MultiTroll]

Part of the problem is not the technical know how but hackers with evil intent.

[hater]

Part of the problem is not the technical know how but hackers with evil intent.

Not yet

Self driving cars still crash at double the rate of regular cars.

Technology is not there yet. We are 90% there but that last 10% is a doozie

[vy65]

seems consistent to me, still not sure what your point is.

The point is that there was nothing the driver's had that could or was transferred to shareholders.

[Winehole23]

The point is that there was nothing the driver's had that could or was transferred to shareholders.sure there was, Uber cut their per ride share -- their pay

[DMC]

I usually tip Uber drivers pretty well but in cash.