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baseline bum
03-24-2016, 07:21 AM
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2016-in-theory-playstation-4k-is-real-but-why-is-sony-making-it
We know PlayStation 4.5 is real - but why is Sony making it?
Digital Foundry on three possible scenarios: the successor, the upgrade and the hardware tweak.
By Richard Leadbetter Published 24/03/2016

So what do we know about the rumoured PlayStation 4.5? In the wake of last week's post-GDC outing of the hardware by Kotaku, we have independently established that it's real and that Sony's R&D labs have prototype devices, and we also have more than one source referring to it as PlayStation 4K, the name we'll be using for now. And this is where things become slightly strange - because while more GPU power is being offered to developers, realistically it is nowhere near enough to provide native 4K gaming at the same quality level as current 1080p titles. The full extent of the spec is a current focus of enquiry for us, but realistically, it is simply impossible to cram the equivalent of today's top-end PC graphics hardware into a console-sized, mass-market box.

Everything we've heard positions PlayStation 4K as a machine capable of playing current and next-generation ultra HD media, while also offering support for other aspects of the 4K spec, such as high-dynamic range and a wider colour gamut - aspects of the 4K spec that could be introduced to gaming. However, in terms of additional computational power, we've got be realistic about what Sony can deliver with a mid-generation refresh.

We can say that with some degree of certainty because PlayStation 4K will almost certainly use an evolved version of the APU technology used in the current console. Once again we will see semi-custom versions of AMD's CPU and GPU technology integrated into a single, console-friendly processor, and thanks to the firm's openness with its technology roadmaps, we have a good idea of the base building blocks Sony has access to in building its next PlayStation.

We also know about the fabrication technologies available. PlayStation 4 and Xbox One arrived when 28nm microprocessors were firmly established, and right now the industry is moving on to 14nm and 16nm chips using 3D 'FinFET' transistors. Shrinking transistors and innovative new architecture are what make generational leaps in computational power possible.

http://images.eurogamer.net/2015/articles//a/1/8/2/0/0/5/9/process_shrinks.jpg.jpg/EG11/resize/600x-1/quality/80/format/jpg
Current-gen became possible owing to multiple shrinks in microprocessor design - but as you can see here, the pace is slowing down. Only four years after the release of PS4 does AMD's next available process - 14nm FinFET - become viable for a console. And PC graphics tech was restricted to 28nm for five years.

Knowledge of both of these areas, along with the idea that the device has to fit into a console form-factor, not to mention the compatibility required with the existing PlayStation 4, narrows the amount of options Sony has available significantly. But the real question is why both Sony and Microsoft are seemingly open to the idea of producing mid-generation refreshes of their consoles. Perhaps the answer can be found in the slide above produced by AMD, showing the major generational improvements in silicon chip production technologies over the last decade. The bottom line is clear - the ability to shrink microprocessors and cram more transistors onto them, making them more powerful, is slowing down. By necessity, consoles may need to move onto a refresh cycle - a process of gradual improvement as opposed to generational leaps in performance. Just like PC hardware, in other words.

From our perspective, we see three viable routes forward for a potential PlayStation mid-generation refresh.

Option #1: A new, more powerful PlayStation

The current-gen console processors are an assemblage of off-the-shelf AMD components with some level of customisation requested by Sony. In the move to 14/16nm production technology, there's a 2x increase to transistor density compared to 28nm, meaning that Sony can produce a microprocessor the same size as PS4's current Liverpool chip, but theoretically twice as powerful. Sony could also stand to benefit from AMD's advances in both CPU and GPU technology - its upcoming Zen CPU cores and Polaris GPU architecture.

However, the question of which parts are available to Sony comes down to timelines. Polaris is viable but difficulties may arise in terms of the new APU's CPU component. AMD's Zen architecture releases first as a performance desktop part towards the latter end of this year - consoles rely on low-power mobile technology, and the PC equivalents remain unclear, with no mention on AMD's roadmaps. There's a very strong possibility that a 2017 revised PlayStation could feature a relatively big jump in GPU performance, but conversely, the CPU component could remain much the same.

We know a little - but still not much - about Polaris, AMD's new GPU component, due later this year. We know that it's based on a fourth generation iteration of its GCN architecture, we know that AMD is promising a radical improvement in performance per watt (a mixture of design improvements, plus the move to 14nm FinFET fabrication technology), and we know that two processors have been designed - Polaris 10 and 11 - aimed at mainstream and higher-end markets. Think of them as today's equivalents to GCN's initial launch in 2011/2012 with the arrival of the Radeon HD 7970/7950 (codename Tahiti) and Radeon HD 7870/7850 (Pitcairn).

http://images.eurogamer.net/2015/articles//a/1/8/2/0/0/5/9/polaris.jpg.jpg/EG11/resize/600x-1/quality/80/format/jpg
AMD's given away some basics on its new Polaris graphics architecture. It's an evolution of the GCN technology found in PlayStation 4, but radically evolved in some areas. The question is whether it's so advanced that compatibility with existing PS4 titles could be an issue.

But here's the rub - everything we're hearing suggests that Sony is expecting this console to be paired with a UHD display. However, realistically, achieving even a 2x increase in GPU power compared to the current PS4 would be a remarkable achievement. To fit into a console-sized box, even this may be too optimistic.

Making life more difficult is the need for a bump to the surrounding memory architecture. More memory would be required to get more out of 4K resolution (higher quality textures), but more than that - faster RAM is required to service a more potent GPU. We aren't hopeful of a massive bump here, owing to cost issues. Other faster technologies - like HBM for example - exist but remain too expensive and aren't ready right now for show-time in a console.

From the media side of things, we would expect Sony to support HDMI 2.0, offering 4K video output at 60Hz along with the HDCP 2.2 content protection scheme - so Netflix at 4K on this unit would be no problem. We would not be surprised to see a next-gen 4K Blu-ray player in there either.

What we might expect:

-- An APU with a higher-end Polaris would push graphics on - a 2x performance boost in GPU power compared to PS4 is achievable in a console form-factor. Possibly more - we really need to see the desktop PC equivalent parts first.
-- By default, Polaris has support for 4K, HDMI 2.0, HDCP 2.2 and HDR.
-- Console would not be cheap owing to the size of the processor - conceivably on par with PS4's £359/$399 launch price.
-- Possibly higher depending on how much Sony pushes the boat out in terms of processor size and memory allocation.
-- This PS4K could co-exist with a cheaper 'PS4 Slim' based on the older APU, again using 14nm/16nm technology.

The bottom line: In 2017, production technologies on 14/16nm should be more mature, and a significantly more powerful PlayStation could be released. But the pace of technological progress in the PC space isn't as rapid as it is on mobile. It took four dramatic leaps in chip production technology to make the generation leap between PS3 and PS4 possible. By 2017, there will have only been one viable jump in fabrication technology available to console manufacturers, and expectations should be limited. Actual 4K games will be in very short supply.

Option #2: PlayStation 4 evolved

Sony is sitting pretty with this console generation. PlayStation 4 is effectively the lead platform for developers on multi-platform titles. A potential danger in making PS4K too different from the older model is that developmental resources would be split, and software quality for the existing PS4 could slip. PS4K has to walk a tightrope - it has to offer something new to the core enthusiasts that propelled the original model to success, but at the same time, a 40m-strong userbase can't be left behind.

On a more practical level, there's also the question of compatibility. Sony offers low-level access to the PS4 graphics hardware via its GNM API - the danger in moving across to a new Radeon architecture is that incompatibilities may be introduced. Therefore, an option open to Sony with 14/16nm microprocessor technology is the ability to scale up the existing chip and bolt on some 4K-friendly features.

Short of an increase in clock-speeds, there's not a great deal that can be done with PlayStation 4's existing Jaguar CPU cores. However, there is much more fertile ground in the GPU component. The existing PlayStation 4's GPU is a semi-custom version of the Radeon HD 7870 - down-clocked and with two deactivated compute units. Other, larger GCN parts of the same generation are available - the 7970's Tahiti processor is the obvious example, offering up a 60 per cent increase in compute power. This could be combined with an overclock, faster RAM - and possibly more of it (though we suspect that cost issues may be a concern here). AMD's Tonga processor - Tahiti's replacement - may also be compatible enough, offering up some useful new features the PlayStation could really use, like delta compression to get more out of the memory bandwidth.

http://images.eurogamer.net/2015/articles//a/1/8/2/0/0/5/9/keyfeatures.jpg.jpg/EG11/resize/600x-1/quality/80/format/jpg
AMD's next-generation display engine and multimedia features are a part of the upcoming Polaris graphics hardware - but they are standalone blocks within the design and could be added to a new console APU based on older graphics technology.

By PC graphics standards, this would be a highly conservative design - but it can be matched with 4K media functionality, HDR and wider colour gamut support - all the goodies we expect to see as standard in 4K screens due in 2017. And it must be remembered that both PS4 and Xbox One were considered conservative by PC enthusiasts at launch. Whenever a new console is mooted, there's always the temptation to look at the best of the best in terms of available PC parts - but these simply cannot be integrated into a console form-factor, or else they are simply not cost-effective.

What we might expect:
-- We'd see a new PlayStation playing host to the same titles as the current one, but with visual improvements.
-- Conceivably, older games may run more smoothly by default, or could be patched to access the newer hardware.
-- Resolution could be pushed beyond 1080p and could look good on a 4K screen, but native UHD visuals for triple-A titles are off the table.
-- Wouldn't be as expensive as the first option.
-- State-of-the-art 4K media support, but harder to sell to all but the most hardcore gamers.

The bottom line: Scaling up and enhancing the current PlayStation doesn't sound particularly exciting and we do have to wonder what the point would be of a PS4K with very little chance of servicing 4K gaming. However, this is the design that stands the best chance of offering a decent bump to system capabilities without introducing too much in the way of compatibility issues. Our gut feeling right now (nothing more) is that this is the form the current prototypes take.

Option #3: PlayStation plus

A potential PlayStation 4K could very well be a PS4 Slim, with the existing APU shrunk to a 14/16nm production process, enhanced with minor boosts to functionality.

Since the processor needs to be redesigned anyway for the node shrink, Sony could take this opportunity to modernise some of the fixtures and fittings in the APU to provide better support for 4K displays - so a wider gamut, HDR, HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 could be added to the existing APU relatively easily.

Assuming Sony is simply refining its existing processor, as opposed to creating a newer, larger one, an alternative option would be to rule out a Slim chassis, keeping the current form-factor instead. The option exists to simply overclock the existing chip once it has been shrunk to 14/16nm. Less likely - but still doable, depending on chip yield - is the idea of unlocking the two blocked-off compute units on the current design of the APU, adding an additional 11 per cent of computational power to the GPU. To maximise any increase in graphics power, Sony would likely switch up its GDDR5 memory to faster modules - just as AMD does with its higher-end desktop graphics cards.

What we might expect:
-- Full compatibility with 4K screens, including next-gen media.
-- Complete 'no worries' compatibility with existing PlayStation 4 library.
-- HDR support for gaming on 4K displays - even if gaming resolution remains at 1080p.
-- Opportunity to lower cost as 14/16nm chips become cheaper.
-- Unlikely to alienate the existing userbase - any performance upgrade would be more 'nice to have' as opposed to essential.

The bottom line: PS4K could simply be a smaller, leaner version of the existing hardware, with revised 4K media and (potentially) HDR support. The option exists to overclock the existing architecture and perhaps unlock the full potential of PS4's APU. It would be like an 'Elite' version of the existing console - nice to have, but not a generational or even half-generational upgrade in terms of processing power. The question is, assuming a 2017 launch, would that be enough?

http://images.eurogamer.net/2015/articles//a/1/8/2/0/0/5/9/roadmap.jpg.jpg/EG11/resize/600x-1/quality/80/format/jpg
AMD's projection for performance per watt efficiency over the next few years on its GPU roadmap. The question is to what extent further process shrinks are factored into this curve. 10nm technology is due to go into production this year, but bearing in mind the immense delay with 14nm, it's hard to say when it may actually be available to AMD or indeed Sony.

What's the point of a mid-generation refresh?

In truth, when we first read the reports of a new PlayStation, we couldn't quite believe that Sony would already be calling time on what is shaping up to be its most successful console yet, especially when it seems that the current generation still has so much to offer. But regardless, this seems to be the way forward and Microsoft has already put its cards on the table.

"We see on other platforms whether it be mobile or PC that you get a continuous innovation that you rarely see on console," Phil Spencer said recently. "Consoles lock the hardware and the software platforms together at the beginning of the generation. Then you ride the generation out for seven or so years, while other ecosystems are getting better, faster, stronger. And then you wait for the next big step function.

"When you look at the console space, I believe we will see more hardware innovation in the console space than we've ever seen. You'll actually see us come out with new hardware capability during a generation allowing the same games to run backward and forward compatible because we have a Universal Windows Application running on top of the Universal Windows Platform that allows us to focus more and more on hardware innovation without invalidating the games that run on that platform."

It's not a particularly compelling argument up against all the advantages we've come to expect from the concept of coding to a fixed platform console - and we can't help but feel sceptical. Based on the technologies available, the tangible benefits seem unclear - it's unlikely that 30fps PS4 games will transform into 60fps PS4K games, and while we may see enhanced visuals and a push to extract the best from next-gen 4K displays, actual UHD native resolution gaming is simply not possible on cutting-edge titles, based on the technologies available to Sony now or in the next couple of years. True innovation on the newer hardware will also be held back by the need to the service the existing console, where the majority of the userbase will be.

Fundamentally, what new gameplay experiences can a revised console offer? At what point do you stop supporting the older PlayStation 4? We can perhaps see the case for an 'elite' version of a games machine - a love-letter to the hardest of the hardcore, with enhanced performance and visuals on the same games. But it reeks of niche appeal - and some might say that the PC already does a better job of servicing this need. When and if refreshed console hardware is officially revealed, it's going to need one hell of a killer app.

Reck
03-24-2016, 07:25 AM
I actually might.

My PlayStation 4 acts retarded half the time. Randomly beeping, ejecting discs and so on.

I have been thinking about buying a new one but this version may actually make me want to get it. Fuck the VR though.

apalisoc_9
03-24-2016, 07:44 AM
Not getting one of its not offering anything different game wise. I'm of a minority here that dont really give a fuck about graphics

Sony should.focus more on games...not the fucking hardware.

0s4 has hardly any games.

lefty
03-24-2016, 07:53 AM
:lol still rocking a PS3


:cry

DJR210
03-24-2016, 03:43 PM
:lol "next gen" consoles
:lol console purchasers
:lol Playstation VR won't run without more power
:lol "next gen" console can't push 4K
:lol sells a $400 piece of shit APU based console and now has to drop the bombshell on it's customers that more power is needed
:lol 400 bucks on a system that only took not even 2 1/2 years to hit a wall
:lol Xbox has it even worse
:lol Dark Souls 3 at 900p with stuttering issues the devs could do nothing about

In this day and age of gaming, it's just not realistic to game with a non-modular solution. You can't charge 400.00 dollars anymore and expect that to provide the customer with a system that will allow the developers to develop games to their potential.

DJR210
03-24-2016, 03:45 PM
Not getting one of its not offering anything different game wise.

They're doing it to be able to push VR and 4K.. Both are a pretty big deal going forward

ElNono
03-24-2016, 03:56 PM
will probably be underpowered for 4k gaming anyways... pass...

baseline bum
03-24-2016, 04:00 PM
:lol "next gen" consoles
:lol console purchasers
:lol Playstation VR won't run without more power
:lol "next gen" console can't push 4K
:lol sells a $400 piece of shit APU based console and now has to drop the bombshell on it's customers that more power is needed
:lol 400 bucks on a system that only took not even 2 1/2 years to hit a wall
:lol Xbox has it even worse
:lol Dark Souls 3 at 900p with stuttering issues the devs could do nothing about

In this day and age of gaming, it's just not realistic to game with a non-modular solution. You can't charge 400.00 dollars anymore and expect that to provide the customer with a system that will allow the developers to develop games to their potential.

In the last gen the consoles were awesome because they were state of the art hardware and the manufacturers were selling them at pretty big losses. In 2006 an XBox 360 with a hard drive for $400 was amazing. But this gen the better console (PS4) has two shitty quadcores that were AMD's answer to Intel's Atom (another crap cpu for gaming) and then an HD 7850 for the gpu. I mean the HD 7850 wasn't even that good a gpu back in 2012, much less 2016. :lmao

DJR210
03-24-2016, 04:29 PM
In the last gen the consoles were awesome because they were state of the art hardware and the manufacturers were selling them at pretty big losses. In 2006 an XBox 360 with a hard drive for $400 was amazing. But this gen the better console (PS4) has two shitty quadcores that were AMD's answer to Intel's Atom (another crap cpu for gaming) and then an HD 7850 for the gpu. I mean the HD 7850 wasn't even that good a gpu back in 2012, much less 2016. :lmao

Agreed.. Firing up Oblivion and 2K6 on the 360 when it dropped was truly next level shit.. Funny thing is this time around is Microsoft charging an extra 100 at launch for that piece of shit..

TBH, I expect the next wave of consoles (assuming these companies don't adopt a PC based modular business model) to be priced around 700 bucks.. this PS4.5 shit is funny though, takes me back to a time of Sega CD's and 32X's :lol My console looked more like a tank

baseline bum
03-24-2016, 04:34 PM
Agreed.. Firing up Oblivion and 2K6 on the 360 when it dropped was truly next level shit.. Funny thing is this time around is Microsoft charging an extra 100 at launch for that piece of shit..


:cry But you could watch television on it :cry


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbWgUO-Rqcw

baseline bum
03-24-2016, 04:35 PM
But yeah, Oblivion was amazing even with the macro stutter on 360 :lmao

DJR210
03-24-2016, 04:35 PM
:cry But you could watch television on it :cry


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbWgUO-Rqcw

:lol they had to scrap their entire plan initially


But yeah, Oblivion was amazing even with the macro stutter on 360 :lmao

Clear the cache before every game son.. Lol the stuttering really got bad after 200+ hours, 26K dead NPC's, 8 million objects scatted across the world.. good thing the glitches never allowed me to go that far

baseline bum
03-24-2016, 04:39 PM
:lol they had to scrap their entire plan initially



Clear the cache before every game son

:cry ¿Why u no like Kinect to your television? :cry

And clearing the cache worked on Oblivion? The first time I played it I remember getting those 2 second loading pauses walking through the forest.

ElNono
03-24-2016, 07:29 PM
Plus one of the major advantages for consoles was the direct access to GPU, etc... but with stuff like Vulcan and DX12, you can get that close to the hardware on PCs themselves...

Eventually, it's going to be about the software ecosystem, much like Apple with the iPhones than anything else.

TDMVPDPOY
03-24-2016, 07:35 PM
these consoles, u cant built it and hope it to match the latest pc offerings, they just make it to meet the standard requirement to play game title

everything else will either be rendered/upscale on the console..

now if they make a console like a pc, where you can upgrade certain parts....then again allowing this means people would just buy a gaming pc instead

z0sa
03-24-2016, 09:12 PM
:lol still rocking a PS3


:cry

same :(

Bitch done me right for 6 years now... in about half that time I went through 5 xbox 360s

Reck
03-24-2016, 09:59 PM
I dont get the PC warriors.

I dont care about a mega powerful machine. I just want to unwind and play a game and be done with it. Most of us come from the 80s 8-bit powered games so I dont get why you PC warriors get all high and mighty. We come from the same generation of gaming so fuck off assholes. :lol

baseline bum
03-24-2016, 11:01 PM
I dont get the PC warriors.

I dont care about a mega powerful machine.

I do. When the XBox 360 came out it just made my 4 year old gaming PC seem like a total piece of shit in comparison even though I bought nothing but bleeding edge high end parts when I built it. I mean the 360 was a $400 system that wrecked my $2000 gaming PC. DJR210 is absolutely right about Oblivion and NBA 2k6. Those were the two games I bought when I got my 360 and I couldn't believe how much better the graphics were, the gameplay, and the AI. But then when this generation of consoles came out the PS4 wasn't even on par with a lower midrange 2012 gaming pc almost two years later. Then the XB1 was even worse. When I saw how little of an improvement they were over my 360 in 2014 and how crappy the hardware was there was no way I was going to dump $400 into getting one, not when PC was where I could go to get that big jump in graphics that made me love my 360.

I have always loved graphics in games, and I think most gamers would agree. It's why I never got Double Dragon on NES, I'd much rather go to the ice house down the street and play it on arcade where it looked and sounded 100x better. It's why I hated DOS and loved Commodore 64. It's why I loved the Super Nintendo and later the PS2, they were such huge leaps graphically. The consoles this generation suck, no wow factor like you'd see with the new consoles most generations before. But Witcher 3 or GTA V on a GTX 970, that shit's impressive. It's like going back to playing Oblivion the first time on 360, Double Dragon the first time on arcade, Super Mario World on SNES, games that just blew me away.

DJR210
03-24-2016, 11:54 PM
I dont get the PC warriors.

I dont care about a mega powerful machine. I just want to unwind and play a game and be done with it. Most of us come from the 80s 8-bit powered games so I dont get why you PC warriors get all high and mighty. We come from the same generation of gaming so fuck off assholes. :lol

So what games are you currently playing on your NES?

Reck
03-25-2016, 12:03 AM
So what games are you currently playing on your NES?

Is that the point?

DJR210
03-25-2016, 12:04 AM
Is that the point?

It's what you just said.. Sit down and unwind with some Excitebike since power and graphics make no difference

ElNono
03-25-2016, 12:26 AM
I have a PC with a GTX960 and a PoorStation 4 (2 actually), and it's not THAT big of a leap... I mean, there's a huge leap between say NBA2K16 XPoor360 and the PS4/PC version.

The PC is certainly more modular, but cost-wise I don't know you're going to be saving much anyways. The next big leap is probably decent 4K gameplay, and that's going to cost you another $300-$400 on a next gen videocard. That's probably what the PoorStation 5 might end up costing anyways when it comes out with the same 4K abilities.

Frankly, the PS4 hides pretty well with the OS and software the "underpowered" (compared to a haswell/skylake anyways) aspect of it. The XBox One is the one that's really shameful.

Reck
03-25-2016, 01:21 AM
It's what you just said.. Sit down and unwind with some Excitebike since power and graphics make no difference

Yeah. I don't care whether a game has insanely good graphics.

As as a matter of fact, my favorite games are from way back in the day. I can appreciate the graphics but it's not a deal breaker for me. So meh

baseline bum
03-25-2016, 06:49 AM
I have a PC with a GTX960 and a PoorStation 4 (2 actually), and it's not THAT big of a leap... I mean, there's a huge leap between say NBA2K16 XPoor360 and the PS4/PC version.

The PC is certainly more modular, but cost-wise I don't know you're going to be saving much anyways. The next big leap is probably decent 4K gameplay, and that's going to cost you another $300-$400 on a next gen videocard. That's probably what the PoorStation 5 might end up costing anyways when it comes out with the same 4K abilities.

Frankly, the PS4 hides pretty well with the OS and software the "underpowered" (compared to a haswell/skylake anyways) aspect of it. The XBox One is the one that's really shameful.

I think there is a pretty big difference between systems with a GTX 970 / R9 390 and up and the PS4. You're playing at double the framerate at 1080p with better lighting effects, better textures, and better draw distance. Now that performance isn't free, you're paying double the launch price of a PS4 for that system that performs twice as much, but I think it's a pretty huge difference.

$300-$400 for 4k gameplay seems like a pipe-dream though. The $650 GTX 980 Ti isn't very good at 4k, so I doubt the $300-$400 Pascal or Polaris GPUs coming out in a couple of months will be able to play 4k very well either.

ElNono
03-25-2016, 09:54 AM
Visually, at 1080p, it's not THAT big of a leap though. I've played games like GTA V, Witcher 3, Battlefield: Hardline, SW: Battlefront on both, and gameplay and visuals are pretty darn smooth on the PS4... the PC version is certainly better, but it's not a huge leap, and frankly, as long as the game plays smooth and without stutters, it's hard to notice (unlike the XBox One which is visually shittier at a lower res AND stutters the fuck everywhere)

Obviously that gap will grow as newer GPUs come on the PC side, while the PS4 (or 4.5) remains somewhat the same, that's why I did build a PC after all this time around :)

I think 4k gaming will eventually come at that price-point, but it might be 3-4 years away. Probably not the next gen, but the one afterwards...

baseline bum
03-25-2016, 10:15 AM
Visually, at 1080p, it's not THAT big of a leap though. I've played games like GTA V, Witcher 3, Battlefield: Hardline, SW: Battlefront on both, and gameplay and visuals are pretty darn smooth on the PS4... the PC version is certainly better, but it's not a huge leap, and frankly, as long as the game plays smooth and without stutters, it's hard to notice (unlike the XBox One which is visually shittier at a lower res AND stutters the fuck everywhere)

Obviously that gap will grow as newer GPUs come on the PC side, while the PS4 (or 4.5) remains somewhat the same, that's why I did build a PC after all this time around :)

I think 4k gaming will eventually come at that price-point, but it might be 3-4 years away. Probably not the next gen, but the one afterwards...

I find doubling the framerate from 30 to 60 to be an enormous leap.

ElNono
03-25-2016, 11:11 AM
I don't. But whatever the fps, gotta be smooth. I actually rather have a locked 30fps than something that jumps between 40 and 60 everywhere.

baseline bum
03-25-2016, 12:02 PM
I actually rather have a locked 30fps than something that jumps between 40 and 60 everywhere.

I agree 100% on that, but I'd much rather have a locked 60 fps than a locked 30 fps. Besides, lots of PS4 games still jump around and can't give a locked 30 fps either. Witcher 3, for instance.

DJR210
03-25-2016, 04:01 PM
Visually, at 1080p, it's not THAT big of a leap though. I've played games like GTA V, Witcher 3, Battlefield: Hardline, SW: Battlefront on both, and gameplay and visuals are pretty darn smooth on the PS4... the PC version is certainly better, but it's not a huge leap, and frankly, as long as the game plays smooth and without stutters, it's hard to notice (unlike the XBox One which is visually shittier at a lower res AND stutters the fuck everywhere)

Obviously that gap will grow as newer GPUs come on the PC side, while the PS4 (or 4.5) remains somewhat the same, that's why I did build a PC after all this time around :)

I think 4k gaming will eventually come at that price-point, but it might be 3-4 years away. Probably not the next gen, but the one afterwards...

Uhmm.. nope, GTA V PC vs PS4 is a GIANT difference.. How you gonna say you can't notice half or more less frames per second? Not to mention the dynamic lighting, PCSS shadows, draw detail distance, 8X MSAA, etc :lol

baseline bum
03-25-2016, 04:07 PM
Uhmm.. nope, GTA V PC vs PS4 is a GIANT difference.. How you gonna say you can't notice half or more less frames per second? Not to mention the dynamic lighting, PCSS shadows, draw detail distance, 8X MSAA, etc :lol

8xMSAA? :lol

You'd need a 980 Ti minimum to do that shit. I actually can't notice a difference between 2xMSAA and 8xMSAA on that game, though 2xMSAA vs FXAA is pretty easy to tell since just FXAA leaves a lot of jaggies on NPCs. But getting 60 fps locked with just 2xMSAA requires a lot on that game. I needed to upgrade to DDR3-2400 RAM to be able to do it with my E3-1231v3 and OC GTX 970.

DJR210
03-25-2016, 04:10 PM
8xMSAA? :lol

You'd need a 980 Ti minimum to do that shit. I actually can't notice a difference between 2xMSAA and 8xMSAA on that game, though 2xMSAA vs FXAA is pretty easy to tell since just FXAA leaves a lot of jaggies on NPCs. But getting 60 fps locked with just 2xMSAA requires a lot on that game. I needed to upgrade to DDR3-2400 RAM to be able to do it with my E3-1231v3 and OC GTX 970.

Comparing max to max not taking into consideration anyone's GPU

ElNono
03-25-2016, 07:35 PM
Uhmm.. nope, GTA V PC vs PS4 is a GIANT difference.. How you gonna say you can't notice half or more less frames per second? Not to mention the dynamic lighting, PCSS shadows, draw detail distance, 8X MSAA, etc :lol

:lol I didn't say the PC version isn't better, I said the difference isn't that HUGE of a leap visually... check out GTA V on the xbox 360 vs the PC/PS4... THAT is a huge leap.

I really can't tell much of a difference with MSAA, tbh... the framerate is legit, BUT if you can keep the 60fps steady. IIRC, you have a GSync monitor, which actually helps with that, but a lot of people don't.

baseline bum
03-25-2016, 07:45 PM
I really can't tell much of a difference with MSAA

It's hard to notice on most things, as GTA V is such an amazing pc port. But when you're in the city 2xMSAA really does clean up the lines on the people walking around, especially on their heads.

DJR210
03-25-2016, 11:40 PM
It's hard to notice on most things, as GTA V is such an amazing pc port. But when you're in the city 2xMSAA really does clean up the lines on the people walking around, especially on their heads.

Power lines look like ass without MSAA

z0sa
03-26-2016, 04:06 AM
Actually, BB, youve often pointed out before the underlying problem before: console developers being ever reluctant passing on exponentially rising inflation and development costs.

Xevious
03-26-2016, 01:10 PM
Will I be buying? No. I do own a PS4, but didn't pay $400. It was more in the 200-250 range because of a Target sale + other discounts.

I buy/play maybe three games or so a year. And with the shift towards mobile platforms, I haven't spent much money on a desktop or laptop in probably a decade or more. I used to build my own systems and play PC games almost exclusively but priorities change. The reason I play games is more for the story/experience. Would I like better performance? Sure, but not at a higher price point. At the end of the day, I'm a cheap motherfucker.

hater
03-26-2016, 05:57 PM
:lol still rocking a PS3


:cry

Same her nigggga

TDMVPDPOY
03-31-2016, 10:14 AM
SHITSTAION4.5 is going to be able output 4k

Cry Havoc
04-01-2016, 06:55 PM
The Ps4 can't manage 1080p @ 60fps, but the PS4.5 is going to be able to handle 4k at 60fps? Hell, most PCs can't do that yet.

And in 2 years it's going to be a mess trying to cram games on limited hardware to run @ 4k. Consoles are falling farther and farther behind the arms race.

ElNono
04-01-2016, 08:13 PM
The Ps4 can't manage 1080p @ 60fps

This isn't true, tbh... the stuff we work on runs at 60fps @ 1080p... now, that it can keep up with that on new games with a lot of shit going on is a different story, lol

Cry Havoc
04-01-2016, 09:40 PM
This isn't true, tbh... the stuff we work on runs at 60fps @ 1080p... now, that it can keep up with that on new games with a lot of shit going on is a different story, lol

There were launch titles titles that were 720p. The PS4 has never been a reliable 1080p system for 60fps.

ElNono
04-01-2016, 10:01 PM
There were launch titles titles that were 720p. The PS4 has never been a reliable 1080p system for 60fps.

I think you're mistaken with the XBox One... the very worst PS4 titles did 900p @ 30fps... (Trine 3D might be the sole exception)

http://www.ign.com/wikis/xbox-one/PS4_vs._Xbox_One_Native_Resolutions_and_Framerates

Again, the hardware itself is more than capable of doing 1080p @ 60fps (while recording your gameplay, etc). It's not powerful enough to do 1080p@60fps when you have a ton of shaders and geometry going on. Definitely underpowered compared to a Haswell/GTX 9xx combo (My game box right now is a PC with a i5 and GTX 960, work machine is an i5/GTX 970). What they do have that's much nicer is they use a lower-level 3D API that's not quite OpenGL and not quite Vulcan, and it gives you fairly good access to compute units.

Disclaimer: I'm working with Sony on PS4 stuff ATM, and have a PS4 devkit sitting right next to me in the office.

TDMVPDPOY
04-01-2016, 10:38 PM
both consoles 4k upscaled rendered shit?

ElNono
04-01-2016, 11:56 PM
Cry, I thought you meant the hardware was not designed to do 1080p. If what you meant is that it's woefully underpowered compared to your current $300-$400 videocard lineups, I agree.

Reck
04-05-2016, 11:57 AM
Cry, I thought you meant the hardware was not designed to do 1080p. If what you meant is that it's woefully underpowered compared to your current $300-$400 videocard lineups, I agree.

LOL these niggas always comparing top of the line PC videocards to non- upgradeable streamline consoles that are only meant for gaming. :lol

Cry Havoc
04-08-2016, 02:29 PM
Cry, I thought you meant the hardware was not designed to do 1080p. If what you meant is that it's woefully underpowered compared to your current $300-$400 videocard lineups, I agree.

Well, my point is that THOSE video cards are unable to handle 4k with today's games, let alone next years. I just don't see any possible way.

Clipper Nation
04-08-2016, 03:35 PM
Anyone else remember the scam that was the Genesis 32X? Sony (and possibly Microsoft) are making the same mistake that Sega did. If they actually start with this bullshit of expecting people to buy pricey new hardware every two years, people will go running to PCs. After all, if you're going to be nickle-and-dimed, might as well get the best possible hardware. Hell, even Nintendo might get a boost from this, since they aren't quite as greedy as Sony and Microsoft.

DJR210
04-08-2016, 03:48 PM
Anyone else remember the scam that was the Genesis 32X? Sony (and possibly Microsoft) are making the same mistake that Sega did. If they actually start with this bullshit of expecting people to buy pricey new hardware every two years, people will go running to PCs. After all, if you're going to be nickle-and-dimed, might as well get the best possible hardware. Hell, even Nintendo might get a boost from this, since they aren't quite as greedy as Sony and Microsoft.

Bro.. No scam.. without the 32X there would be no Doom on console.. I had the 32X and the Sega CD

Clipper Nation
04-08-2016, 04:20 PM
Bro.. No scam.. without the 32X there would be no Doom on console.
How so? Doom came out for the SNES a few months later, and it was the superior version. It had more levels and better music than the rushed 32X port.

Plus Sega did jack shit else with that thing. It was literally just a cash-grab to precede the Saturn cash-grab. Apparently the American side of the company wanted nothing to do with it, but the Japanese side forced them to release it.

DJR210
04-08-2016, 04:43 PM
How so? Doom came out for the SNES a few months later, and it was the superior version. It had more levels and better music than the rushed 32X port.

Plus Sega did jack shit else with that thing. It was literally just a cash-grab to precede the Saturn cash-grab. Apparently the American side of the company wanted nothing to do with it, but the Japanese side forced them to release it.

The 32X was released a full year sooner.. plus, the SNES was pure garbage.. that shit was played in a tiny window and the textures looked way worse than 32x

But believe me.. the 32X was complete shit, no denying that. I had Doom and Virtua Racing, that's it.. SEGA fucked their userbase on every system except Genesis

baseline bum
04-19-2016, 07:46 PM
So PoorStation Neo gets a 30% bump in clockspeed on the cpu and a 2.3x stronger gpu, as well as faster RAM.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JJbWo8y58M

ElNono
04-19-2016, 11:11 PM
Yup, SDK went out today... there's actually some more details about the 4k support I can't comment on, but I'm sure it would give you a laugh or two :lol

baseline bum
04-19-2016, 11:17 PM
Yup, SDK went out today... there's actually some more details about the 4k support I can't comment on, but I'm sure it would give you a laugh or two :lol

So it can run what, Super Mario 3 at 4k?

ElNono
04-19-2016, 11:29 PM
So it can run what, Super Mario 3 at 4k?

It should run most games (will require patches to support 4K, and there's no Neo exclusive games), but there's some trickery going on...

apalisoc_9
04-20-2016, 01:52 AM
Whats the point of this? I barely play my ps4 but i cant imagine wanting more with Graphics. I mean..shit i can probably play theae games in ps3 graphics and not care..

Why so determined for an upgrade?

ElNono
04-20-2016, 07:57 AM
I think it makes sense for Sony financially, tbh... 4K TVs are getting so cheap, they're begging for content. Early adopters are also people that have no qualms forking off money in order to get whatever.

Plus, this puts even more pressure on the XPoor One, tbh...

Clipper Nation
04-20-2016, 02:43 PM
Whats the point of this?

Part of it is because the VR headset they're coming out with needs more power to work, IIRC. The other reason is that Sony is a bunch of faggots who want to milk the shit out of their customers while they're on top.

baseline bum
04-20-2016, 02:47 PM
I think it makes sense for Sony financially, tbh... 4K TVs are getting so cheap, they're begging for content. Early adopters are also people that have no qualms forking off money in order to get whatever.

Plus, this puts even more pressure on the XPoor One, tbh...

Since no one bought XPoor One they should release a whole new console with an i5-6400 and one of those new Polaris 11 GPUs in it. That shit would rape PoorStation Neo.

ElNono
04-20-2016, 06:30 PM
Since no one bought XPoor One they should release a whole new console with an i5-6400 and one of those new Polaris 11 GPUs in it. That shit would rape PoorStation Neo.

They could probably make a Skylake i3 + GTX960 + RAM + HD for $400 at this point, tbh... probably even fit in a 970 if they stretch it a bit.

But, they're Microsoft, so they're probably going to buy up HTC for 60 trillion just for the Vive tech...

baseline bum
04-20-2016, 07:38 PM
They could probably make a Skylake i3 + GTX960 + RAM + HD for $400 at this point, tbh...

I would love to see that, pc ports could really go up in quality if devs start doing metal level programming targeting Skylake and the 960.

Reck
04-20-2016, 07:39 PM
Part of it is because the VR headset they're coming out with needs more power to work, IIRC. The other reason is that Sony is a bunch of faggots who want to milk the shit out of their customers while they're on top.

Nah. The reason they did this (And even Microsoft is planning on doing an upgrade) is because they realized they fucked up releasing the next gen underpowered as hell. They knew that as it is, the PS4 wouldn't even last 3 years. This bump gives them a few more years before they come out with a new next gen.

DJR210
04-20-2016, 09:30 PM
:lol consoles

:lol "I'd NEVER build a PC, they're too expensive"

:lol "I'd rather just buy a new 400 dollar console every other year"

:lol

baseline bum
04-20-2016, 11:06 PM
:lol consoles

:lol "I'd NEVER build a PC, they're too expensive"

:lol "I'd rather just buy a new 400 dollar console every other year"

:lol

Steam sales really allow you to make up a lot of that money going pc. And then nosteam sales are even better.

ElNono
04-20-2016, 11:33 PM
Looks I might be getting a devkit of one of those... already have the 60" UHD TV for it at the office...

DJR210
04-21-2016, 01:14 AM
Steam sales really allow you to make up a lot of that money going pc. And then nosteam sales are even better.

:claw

DJR210
04-21-2016, 01:15 AM
Looks I might be getting a devkit of one of those... already have the 60" UHD TV for it at the office...

The info leak on the system so far is saying they won't be doing games in 4k if the frame rate sucks because of it.. I don't see this slightly faster PS4 pushing 4K tbh

gambit1990
04-21-2016, 05:28 PM
i might. never bought a ps4, so it works out.

baseline bum
04-21-2016, 07:54 PM
The info leak on the system so far is saying they won't be doing games in 4k if the frame rate sucks because of it.. I don't see this slightly faster PS4 pushing 4K tbh

Isn't this supposed to have a Polaris gpu? That would likely be an enormous step up in graphical power.

baseline bum
04-21-2016, 09:22 PM
Digital Foundry is reporting Sony wants all games released October 2016 and later to have enhancements for the Neo, so I guess it's being released for the Christmas 2016 season.

Reck
04-23-2016, 12:28 AM
This might be Sony's last game console.


“I said, ‘Well, what does the PlayStation 5 look like?’ And he said, ‘You mean if…’ And I was like, ‘Whoa. Are you willing to say that on stage?’ And he said, ‘Yeah, it’s an if.'”

http://bgr.com/2016/04/21/will-sony-make-a-ps5/

apalisoc_9
04-23-2016, 02:28 AM
This might be Sony's last game console.



http://bgr.com/2016/04/21/will-sony-make-a-ps5/

Why would it be their last? :lol

They are murdering everyone.right now with the ps4 with 45 million sales in about 2 years and 8 months. If not for the dumb decision to do the neo the base ps4 would have most likely sold 100 million consoles during its possible 6 year life span. :lol

Would be stupid to not make another ps5 in around 2020. Thats money loss..Sony's biggest cash cow now is their console iirc so no idea why they would not make another one.

Until the competition xbox and wii gives up, sony will always try to take the lead on wverything.

baseline bum
04-23-2016, 07:44 AM
They're just saying that shit to get people to buy PoorStation Neo, they don't want people sitting out this console to wait for the real successor to PS4. They're like Nvidia trying to double dip in a generation.

ElNono
04-23-2016, 09:07 AM
This is an area where Sony is making a killing right now, tbh... unlike their mobile divisions or TV divisions where the margins are way slimmer...

So yeah, you can bet $$$ there will be a PS5...

Reck
04-23-2016, 08:29 PM
I think it makes sense for them to stop at 4.

Technology is moving far too quickly for consoles to be a viable thing these days. The current gen is already outdated less than 4 years in.

Sony has the streaming deal which isn't so bad at all and doesn't even require a console to play so I can definitely see them going that route if things dont line up.

baseline bum
04-23-2016, 11:17 PM
I think it makes sense for them to stop at 4.

Technology is moving far too quickly for consoles to be a viable thing these days. The current gen is already outdated less than 4 years in.

Sony has the streaming deal which isn't so bad at all and doesn't even require a console to play so I can definitely see them going that route if things dont line up.

The technology is moving pretty slowly, this isn't the 1990s or early 2000s. Right now a $200 i5-2500k released in January 2011 is still a really strong cpu for gaming, ask Cry Havoc. CPU improvement has been glacial the last five years. Whereas a $300 cpu from the early 2000s was obsolete in two years. DJR210's GTX 680 from early 2012 is still a really capable 1080p 60 fps gaming card. Hell, a GTX 580 from late 2010 is still a decent 1080p card. Sony just put shitty hardware in their console this generation. The cpus they use are laughably bad.

Cry Havoc
04-23-2016, 11:35 PM
The technology is moving pretty slowly, this isn't the 1990s or early 2000s. Right now a $200 i5-2500k released in January 2011 is still a really strong cpu for gaming, ask Cry Havoc. CPU improvement has been glacial the last five years. Whereas a $300 cpu from the early 2000s was obsolete in two years. DJR210's GTX 680 from early 2012 is still a really capable 1080p 60 fps gaming card. Hell, a GTX 580 from late 2010 is still a decent 1080p card. Sony just put shitty hardware in their console this generation. The cpus they use are laughably bad.

I mean, it depends. Yes, older cards can still push 1080p at acceptable framerates, but a lot of the newer games are really pushing the envelope. Some of the more modern effects like tessellation and ambient occlusion are absolutely destroying cards right now and add a ton of detail to an image.

I would argue that the largest reason for CPUs staying viable so long is due to the fact that so much more of the graphic calculations are being offloaded to the video card these days. In 2010, your system was probably about 50/50 for some games as far as how much your CPU mattered vs GPU. Now it's more like 10/90, as long as you have a modern quad core it's going to be able to handle most of what's going on in games because it's supplemental to the card.

Also consider the 580 at launch was a monster $500 card. It will run Witcher 3 on low @ 1080 and get around 40fps. Definitely impressive that it can still run the game, but I would argue it's on the verge of being obsolete. That said, a GTX580 is still capable of more floating point operations than a PS4. :lol

baseline bum
04-23-2016, 11:47 PM
I mean, it depends. Yes, older cards can still push 1080p at acceptable framerates, but a lot of the newer games are really pushing the envelope. Some of the more modern effects like tessellation and ambient occlusion are absolutely destroying cards right now and add a ton of detail to an image.

I would argue that the largest reason for CPUs staying viable so long is due to the fact that so much more of the graphic calculations are being offloaded to the video card these days. In 2010, your system was probably about 50/50 for some games as far as how much your CPU mattered vs GPU. Now it's more like 10/90, as long as you have a modern quad core it's going to be able to handle most of what's going on in games because it's supplemental to the card.

Also consider the 580 at launch was a monster $500 card. It will run Witcher 3 on low @ 1080 and get around 40fps. Definitely impressive that it can still run the game, but I would argue it's on the verge of being obsolete. That said, a GTX580 is still capable of more floating point operations than a PS4. :lol

A 580 is still on par with or better than lower midrange cards like the GTX 960, GTX 950, R7 370, etc. You can still sync to 30 fps on Witcher 3 at mostly medium settings with it, and Witcher 3 is a real outlier for how much it kicks gpu's asses. Tessellation and ambient occlusion don't hit me too hard man, those are AMD problems. :lol

apalisoc_9
04-24-2016, 01:30 AM
But this could be a brilliant move if they decrease.the base model price by 100 dollars. That 45-50 million will most likely double in a year. I dont see why they wont if the neo is priced around 399...

Imagine a ps4 base model of 299 dollars and Neo at 399. Sony is going to make an ever bigger killing and drown xbox and the next nintendo.

Sucks for consumers who just brought the base model in the last 6 months though.

Reck
04-24-2016, 02:11 AM
Who needs a playstation 4? I am selling mine imo.

There is only one little problem though. It has that random ejection problem which doesn't happen often but it does. :lol

DJR210
04-24-2016, 10:26 AM
I think the PS4/Xbox one is gonna be their last traditional console.. They're gonna have to go modular and allow people to customize their components like a PC with as fast as graphics tech is evolving.

baseline bum
04-24-2016, 12:06 PM
I think the PS4/Xbox one is gonna be their last traditional console.. They're gonna have to go modular and allow people to customize their components like a PC with as fast as graphics tech is evolving.

You think it's evolving fast now? I thought it was way faster in the past. Look at how huge a jump the 680 was over the 580 at a little more than half the die size and then the 580 successor (GTX Titan Black) offered more than twice the performance.

DJR210
04-24-2016, 03:02 PM
You think it's evolving fast now? I thought it was way faster in the past. Look at how huge a jump the 680 was over the 580 at a little more than half the die size and then the 580 successor (GTX Titan Black) offered more than twice the performance.

Yeah, with DX12 and VR and shit I expect things to continue to push graphics tech.. gone are the days of 8 year console lifespans IMO

baseline bum
04-24-2016, 03:17 PM
Yeah, with DX12 and VR and shit I expect things to continue to push graphics tech.. gone are the days of 8 year console lifespans IMO

The XBox 360 had amazing hardware for its time, that's why it lasted so long.

DJR210
04-24-2016, 03:23 PM
The XBox 360 had amazing hardware for its time, that's why it lasted so long.

Yup.. the good old days

Speaking of the good old days.. love this site..

www.retromags.com (http://www.retromags.com)

You can download all the old EGM's, Gamepros, Game Players, etc in .cbz or cbr format and view with a comic book viewer app like Perfect Viewer for Android.. :lol at seeing them rave about sound and graphics and "3D" graphics on some shitty SNES games

z0sa
04-24-2016, 03:48 PM
After seeing that youtube i think im gonna wait for the neo

ElNono
04-24-2016, 10:41 PM
I can see another hardware rev in the future... the CPU is basically the same as the old one, clocked higher, but it still have some perf issues (cache/SIMD unit is kinda crappy, etc).

The GPU gets an overhaul now, but they can definitely do better.

I just don't know if they'll call it PS5...

DJR210
04-26-2016, 01:07 AM
On a side note, Outlast 2 looks fucking amazing IMO.. I could see myself shitting my pants in VR with a good sound system for sure


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a58xhkF1O5w

Reck
04-26-2016, 04:55 AM
On a side note, Outlast 2 looks fucking amazing IMO.. I could see myself shitting my pants in VR with a good sound system for sure


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a58xhkF1O5w

Can you actually hit something this time?

I have the first game. The stealthing was kind of cool at first but a few hours in I wanted to put a hatchet in someone's brain.

DJR210
04-26-2016, 12:18 PM
Can you actually hit something this time?

I have the first game. The stealthing was kind of cool at first but a few hours in I wanted to put a hatchet in someone's brain.

I doubt it.. The game is twisted, the environments and atmosphere are among the creepiest in any horror game I've played, and the immersion for me in this game was on point.. I honestly didn't miss having a weapon. Later in the game though you do fight back, but by using the environment. Still probably not gonna cut it for you.

The new one looks to be taking a satanic angle too, I can imagine the twisted satanic imagery they're gonna have in this one.

ElNono
07-01-2016, 12:04 AM
Just got my Neo devkit... working on a title that does 4k res right now..

baseline bum
07-01-2016, 12:36 AM
Just got my Neo devkit... working on a title that does 4k res right now..

No shit, Minecraft is getting ported to PoorStation?

ElNono
07-01-2016, 12:42 AM
No shit, Minecraft is getting ported to PoorStation?

:lol

Actually, I was just thinking they got bought out by Microsoft for likely an insane amount of money, right?... then they released Minecraft 1st person? :lmao