life on other planets infinitely impossible or rather, probable?

[z0sa]

Life on earth emerged very quicky after the mass collisions of the early solar system ended. Other than an RNA history to our DNA exclusive world, there is no evidence any other spontaneous form of life ever competed with our earliest ancestors. Why is this? Is it because life emerging is so incredibly rare as to be essentially miraculous in nature? If not, I submit DNA must therefore be proof of the opposite, a common denominator all potentially life bearing planets - making extraterrestrial life not only probable, but related on a fundamental level to life here on earth.

Yet then why can we not replicate abiogenesis in the laboratory? Im just a layman, perhaps some of the more educated folk here can share their ideas on why DNA has always dominated here, even in our earliest microbial incestors.

[Avante]

The mistake we humans make is thinking because we need this n' that to sustain life everyone/everything else does. We can't live underwater but fish can, we can't fly but birds can.

While I do doubt there is any life on the planets in our solar system, I have no doubts that somewhere out there we find other life forms totally different than what we find here on earth.

The real mystery to me is how they travel from far out in space to earth. Is there a way station along the way? Sort of a truck stop.


Way Station is a 1963 science fiction (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Science_fiction) novel (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Novel) by Clifford D. Simak (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Clifford_D._Simak), originally published as Here Gather the Stars in two parts in Galaxy Magazine (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Galaxy_Magazine) in June and August 1963. Way Station won the 1964 Hugo Award for Best Novel (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Hugo_Award_for_Best_Novel).

[z0sa]

The mistake we humans make is thinking because we need this n' that to sustain like everyone/everything else does. We can't live underwater but fish can, we can't fly but birds can.

While I do doubt there is any life on the planets in our scolar system, I have no doubts that somewhere out there we find other life forms totally different than what we find here on earth.

The real mystery to me is how they travel from far out in space to earth. Is there a way station along the way? Sort of a truck stop.


Way Station is a 1963 science fiction (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Science_fiction) novel (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Novel) by Clifford D. Simak (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Clifford_D._Simak), originally published as Here Gather the Stars in two parts in Galaxy Magazine (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Galaxy_Magazine) in June and August 1963. Way Station won the 1964 Hugo Award for Best Novel (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Hugo_Award_for_Best_Novel).

The whole e=mc2 thing kinda ruins most sci fi propositions. And time of course. The greatest civilization in universal history may have pasted 1 billion years, and what does that concern us five billion or even just 500,000 years in the future?

[Avante]

The whole e=mc2 thing kinda ruins most sci fi propositions. And time of course. The greatest civilization in universal history may have pasted 1 billion years, and what does that concern us five billion or even just 500,000 years in the future?

Right there is the big mistake we make. We try to use our limitations and knowledge about things that might not be governed by the same laws and limitations. We see 24 hours as a day, maybe there is no such thing as an hour/day etc where they exist. Time is something totally different, as is reproduction, cold, hot etc etc. A whole other set of rules and laws.

I do believe some of those UFO sigthings are legit, so they obviously are on a whole other level than we are when it comes to galactic travel. So they do know something we don't.

[z0sa]

I agree it is impossible finding a sense of scale when you only have yourself to make a comparison and contrast. As NDT points out in Cosmos, apes stacking boxes to a banana in a zoo seems highly advanced for them. But they are unaware theyre in a zoo or being studied. Could not the same situation exist for us? Being totally unaware of our cage, or the studies being performed by higher intelligences.

[Avante]

I agree it is impossible finding a sense of scale when you only have yourself to make a comparison and contrast. As NDT points out in Cosmos, apes stacking boxes to a banana in a zoo seems highly advanced for them. But they are unaware theyre in a zoo or being studied. Could not the same situation exist for us? Being totally unaware of our cage, or the studies being performed by higher intelligences.

No studies on us as individuals like the monkey in a zoo situation but as a tribe/race (earthlings) yes, I can see that. Which brings up the question of what is the motivation there? And how many years (not that time is the same to them) is this going to take and what results are they looking for? And, are things going as they anticipated or are we a huge disappointment?

Is there a competition going on out there between the globetrotters, using us (nations) as their chess pieces?

[RD2191]

Fermi Paradox imo. Where is everybody?

[SpursforSix]

Fermi Paradox imo. Where is everybody?

In your mom's goat vag

[RD2191]

In your mom's goat vag

Pay me child support.

[Xevious]

I'll just post what I said in the other thread.

I have no comment on whether or not alien life has ever been to earth or not. But to think that of the trillions and trillions of stars/planetary systems out there that Earth would be the only rock capable of sustaining life... that's just retarded.
And I somewhat agree with Avante here. If we did somehow encounter complex, intelligent organisms from another planet, I think the way they communicate, travel, etc would be incomprehensible to us.

[SpursforSix]

Pay me child support.

Disinfect your mom's vag.

[pgardn]

Life on earth emerged very quicky after the mass collisions of the early solar system ended. Other than an RNA history to our DNA exclusive world, there is no evidence any other spontaneous form of life ever competed with our earliest ancestors. Why is this? Is it because life emerging is so incredibly rare as to be essentially miraculous in nature? If not, I submit DNA must therefore be proof of the opposite, a common denominator all potentially life bearing planets - making extraterrestrial life not only probable, but related on a fundamental level to life here on earth.

Yet then why can we not replicate abiogenesis in the laboratory? Im just a layman, perhaps some of the more educated folk here can share their ideas on why DNA has always dominated here, even in our earliest microbial incestors.

The bolded is not entirely clear.

Its kind of like saying bacteria were the only forms of life because they were able to leave cellular traces of themselves. Before there were organized cells there may have been a multitude of different types of molecules working together that could self replicate. This gets complicated enough that one really needs a clearer definition of what life is.

[pgardn]

The mistake we humans make is thinking because we need this n' that to sustain life everyone/everything else does. We can't live underwater but fish can, we can't fly but birds can.

While I do doubt there is any life on the planets in our solar system, I have no doubts that somewhere out there we find other life forms totally different than what we find here on earth.

The real mystery to me is how they travel from far out in space to earth. Is there a way station along the way? Sort of a truck stop.


Way Station is a 1963 science fiction (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Science_fiction) novel (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Novel) by Clifford D. Simak (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Clifford_D._Simak), originally published as Here Gather the Stars in two parts in Galaxy Magazine (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Galaxy_Magazine) in June and August 1963. Way Station won the 1964 Hugo Award for Best Novel (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Hugo_Award_for_Best_Novel).

And you sir, are still an idiot.

[z0sa]

The bolded is not entirely clear.

Its kind of like saying bacteria were the only forms of life because they were able to leave cellular traces of themselves. Before there were organized cells there may have been a multitude of different types of molecules working together that could self replicate. This gets complicated enough that one really needs a clearer definition of what life is.

Absolutely true, both points. That said, why are there living single celled bacteria of ancient origin with many times the dna of vastly more complex organisms? To me, in my admittedly layman understanding, that seems to point to the possibility of DNA actually forming independently numerous times, reinforcing the hypothesis all life in the universe ultimately uses DNA. A grand leap, sure, but not a completely unfounded one.

[pgardn]

Absolutely true, both points. That said, why are there living single celled bacteria of ancient origin with many times the dna of vastly more complex organisms? To me, in my admittedly layman understanding, that seems to point to the possibility of DNA actually forming independently numerous times, reinforcing the hypothesis all life in the universe ultimately uses DNA. A grand leap, sure, but not a completely unfounded one.

We think the first forms of life on earth were RNA based.

What about more DNA?

Some of the easiest organisms to study are bacteria solely because they have so little DNA?

[z0sa]

We think the first forms of life on earth were RNA based.

What about more DNA?

Some of the easiest organisms to study are bacteria solely because they have so little DNA?

Honestly cant answer those questions. The rna world stuff sounds cool but is beyond me

[pgardn]

Honestly cant answer those questions. The rna world stuff sounds cool but is beyond me

Actually I'm just saying that on the level bacteria don't have much DNA which is why we study them. The first organism to be completely sequenced was E.Coli. We understand this bacteria better than any other living thing.

[z0sa]

Actually I'm just saying that on the level bacteria don't have much DNA which is why we study them. The first organism to be completely sequenced was E.Coli. We understand this bacteria better than any other living thing.

I misspoke, single celled amoebas are to what i was referring. As for e coli, the definitive proof of evolution can be found when studying the growth and mutation of a colony. I think colonys the right term.

[pgardn]

I misspoke, single celled amoebas are to what i was referring. As for e coli, the definitive proof of evolution can be found when studying the growth and mutation of a colony. I think colonys the right term.

So your talking about Eukaryotic cells and how they evolved from presumably simple prokaryotic cells (bacteria). This is an area of intense research. The leader in the field was a lady named Lynn Margulis. Still a lot of debate last I visited the subject.

And yes bacteria are also easy to study for evolutionary purposes as they multiply and mutate quite rapidly. This includes of course E. coli as well as more species than we can identify.

[Avante]

I don't think anyone is referring to bacteria and such when talking about life in the great unknown, it's intelligent life we are talking about.

To think we are all alone in that vastness is simply naive, that cannot be the case and it should be obvious.

[TE]

Read an article on panspermia. A while back. Very interesting.

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/80018/20150827/panspermia-scientists-mull-if-alien-life-can-travel-between-stars-like-epidemic-outbreak.htm

[z0sa]

I'll just post what I said in the other thread.

And I somewhat agree with Avante here. If we did somehow encounter complex, intelligent organisms from another planet, I think the way they communicate, travel, etc would be incomprehensible to us.

Im not a big fan of the incomprehensible technology perspective personally, though its as good an answer as any. Just seems like a self defeating concept that is by definition illogical since the technology IS comprehensible at some level of existence or evolution or whatever. Lol. Jm2c.

[pgardn]

I don't think.

Then don't propose what you don't have a clue about.

[z0sa]

So your talking about Eukaryotic cells and how they evolved from presumably simple prokaryotic cells (bacteria). This is an area of intense research. The leader in the field was a lady named Lynn Margulis. Still a lot of debate last I visited the subject.

And yes bacteria are also easy to study for evolutionary purposes as they multiply and mutate quite rapidly. This includes of course E. coli as well as more species than we can identify.

Ah, i see. Thanks for clarifying. Still, it is certainly strange seeing single celled creatures full of junk DNA.

[Avante]

Then don't propose what you don't have a clue about.

Why the aggression, be cool and relax.

This thread has some potential no need for you to spoil it, ok?

Other life forms in the galaxies an interesting topic, something most of us have considered.

[Xevious]

Im not a big fan of the incomprehensible technology perspective personally, though its as good an answer as any. Just seems like a self defeating concept that is by definition illogical since the technology IS comprehensible at some level of existence or evolution or whatever. Lol. Jm2c.
I suppose what I mean to say is that aliens would be completely different than any preconceived notions we currently have.

[Avante]

I suppose what I mean to say is that aliens would be completely different than any preconceived notions we currently have.

Yes, I think we would encounter something we had never even considered if we came in contact with space travelers. No little grey/green men at all, actually...men....can't even fit their discription. We'd be stunned.

[z0sa]

I suppose what I mean to say is that aliens would be completely different than any preconceived notions we currently have.

That could very well be true. Lacking evidence to the contrary however, I say that if you follow these creatures back to their humble origins, youll find DNA or something extremely similar.

[Avante]

That could very well be true. Lacking evidence to the contrary however, I say that if you follow these creatures back to their humble origins, youll find DNA or something extremely similar.

We just can't seem (all of us) to realize things might be 100% different with whatever is out there. They have nothing at all to do with anything we know of. No DNA, or RNA or anything remotely similiar to what we know of.

[z0sa]

We just can't seem (all of us) to realize things might be 100% different with whatever is out there. They have nothing at all to do with anything we know of. No DNA, or RNA or anything remotely similiar to what we know of.

Maybe now, at their current evolutionary/technological state. But even assuming this as truth, still, at one time the grays or whatever were naked half beasts chilling in three dimensions.

[Avante]

Maybe now, at their current evolutionary/technological state. But even assuming this as truth, still, at one time the grays or whatever were naked half beasts chilling in three dimensions.

I see no reason to assume "they" had to do anything like we had to deal with. I see it as someting 100% different and unique to us. Something we can't even fathom right now.

[z0sa]

I see no reason to assume "they" had to do anything like we had to deal with. I see it as someting 100% different and unique to us. Something we can't even fathom right now.

That seems pretty fuckin far fetched if you ask me, but hey, what the hell do I know?

[Avante]

That seems pretty fuckin far fetched if you ask me, but hey, what the hell do I know?

Try talking the cell phone, computers, the TV, radio to the Gro Magnon, they'd think that's all pretty far fetched. Who would have believed back in 1963 that someday we'd have a black president?

We want to put our limitations on everything and that's where we make our mistake. When we start dealing with alien life forms the key word there is....alien.

[z0sa]

Try talking the cell phone, computers, the TV, radio to the Gro Magnon, they'd think that's all pretty far fetched. Who would have believed back in 1963 that someday we'd have a black president?

We want to put our limitations on everything and that's where we make our mistake. When we start dealing with alien life forms the key word there is....alien.

True, but all those things could have been built back then with the proper tools, materials and means of production. What youre talking about seems more metaphysical in nature.

[Avante]

True, but all those things could have been built back then with the proper tools, materials and means of production. What youre talking about seems more metaphysical in nature.

The point is those things were never thought of back then. Putting sounds on a record/anything was never thought of as ancient man huddled around a fire in as cave. A satellite dish? The airplane?

Where do you think we'll be 1000 years from now?

Maybe "they" see that we aren't ready for them yet, too immature in our thinking.

[z0sa]

The point is those things were never thought of back then. Putting sounds on a record/anything was never thought of as ancient man huddled around a fire in as cave. A satellite dish? The airplane?

Where do you think we'll be 1000 years from now?

Maybe "they" see that we aren't ready for them yet, too immature in our thinking.

Sure, its possible, and at the same time they could still have DNA in every cell of their body.

[Avante]

Sure, its possible, and at the same time they could still have DNA in every cell of their body.

Life as we know it....why? Why would beings/things from the vastness of outer space be governed by our laws and rules? How come no other planets are like this one? So why would "they" be like us when where "they' come from isn't?

[z0sa]

Life as we know it....why?

Because thats all we have as evidence to draw conclusions from.

[Avante]

Because thats all we have as evidence to draw conclusions from.

Which goes back to those cave dwellers and their limitations at the time. So unless we have evidence of something we can't imagine something else without any evidence?

It's been many times, it's called Sci fi and fantasy.

[z0sa]

Which goes back to those cave dwellers and their limitations at the time. So unless we have evidence of something we can't imagine something else without any evidence?

It's been many times, it's called Sci fi and fantasy.

And before that it was called religion.

[Avante]

And before that it was called religion.

That's right, all those ancients had their Gods with ....0...evidence of their existence. And those Gods were not limited like they were. They had superhuman powers, they were different and lived by a different set of laws and limitations.

All dwelling high above their lowly followers.

[pgardn]

Why the aggression, be cool and relax.

This thread has some potential no need for you to spoil it, ok?

Other life forms in the galaxies an interesting topic, something most of us have considered.

I do not come in anger little one. This board is a ridiculously funny place.

So consider this:

I think you should just stay on Earth instead of treading into deep water. It's tough to take you seriously when you don't even wish to understand the basics. You are like a frustrated child wishing to write a book yet you do not believe in letters, words or phrases. Anyone can scribble on a piece of paper.

So scribble away as if it were a masterpiece of thought.

[pgardn]

Ah, i see. Thanks for clarifying. Still, it is certainly strange seeing single celled creatures full of junk DNA.

Yep. Part of the beauty of how complex life is. That is part of why current ideas on the mechanisms of evolution are so interesting. We have psuedogenes that appear to do nothing but coattail functional regions of DNA for generation after generation. The "Selfish Gene" , by Richard Dawkins, looks like it was overstated but some of the ideas were very compelling and still hold sway. This book explained junk DNA before it was even identified. Now we have found that some of the junk is has a regulatory function. The big surprise continues to be how few genes it takes to build an organism and how just changing some regulatory regions can lead to a vastly different organism from a morphological point of view. This of course makes evolution even more interesting as it shows the great unity of life as we know it on Earth.

BTW. Dawkins, sadly, used most of his time after his insights into baiting anti evolution preachers into debates that went nowhere instead of adding to the actual science. Another example of a science guy who understood the difference between science and religion and decided to put efforts into nonproductive encounters. IMO of course.

[Avante]

I do not come in anger little one. This board is a ridiculously funny place.

So consider this:

I think you should just stay on Earth instead of treading into deep water. It's tough to take you seriously when you don't even wish to understand the basics. You are like a frustrated child wishing to write a book yet you do not believe in letters, words or phrases. Anyone can scribble on a piece of paper.

So scribble away as if it were a masterpiece of thought.

So you believe those basics would be universal? No matter how far away "they" are they would be ruled by the same laws and principles that we abide by? It isn't possible we see a whole other set of laws and principles where "they" come from?

Us earthlings are different as we know, skin pigment is different, hair texture, eyes, size, intelligence. Then we have the different sexes. To think "they" won't be totally different than we are would be naive.

[pgardn]

So you believe those basics would be universal? No matter how far away "they" are they would be ruled by the same laws and principles that we abide by? It isn't possible we see a whole other set of laws and principles where "they" come from?

Us earthlings are different as we know, skin pigment is different, hair texture, eyes, size, intelligence. Then we have the different sexes. To think "they" won't be totally different than we are would be naive.


What basics? The ones you refuse to believe.

Who is they?

[Avante]

What basics?

Who is they?

The basics would be what it takes to sustain life on planet earth. And they would be those not from planet earth.

[pgardn]

The basics would be what it takes to sustain life on planet earth. And they would be those not from planet earth.

What are the basics that it takes to sustain life on Earth?

[Avante]

What are the basics that it takes to sustain life on Earth?


http://www.livescience.com/32983-what-are-ingredients-life.html

There you go.

Now, why do you think those of another galaxy would be under the same laws that we are under? Why must we be similiar in anything? They could be totally diferent in everything.

[pgardn]

http://www.livescience.com/32983-what-are-ingredients-life.html

There you go.

Now, why do you think those of another galaxy would be under the same laws that we are under? Why must we be similiar in anything? They could be totally diferent in everything.


Cool.

So we are almost certain these same atoms are found in other galaxies. Do you know why? So yes, in other galaxies absolutely yes I can see CHONP as being the elements of life. Possibly silicon based as well. This assumes that we have the same definition of life.

In another UNIVERSE with totally different physical principals at work I would not even know where to begin as I know what we think about this universe we are in. We are able to make observations, conduct experiments, and test ideas in this universe. This allows for legitimate discussion about this universe. If you wish to make up a universe in which neither energy or atoms exist fell free to do so. It's like scribbling incoherently on paper. Anyone can do it and there is no discussion as its make your own rules that don't have to be followed when YOU deem it appropriate not to follow rules.

[Avante]

Cool.

So we are almost certain these same atoms are found in other galaxies. Do you know why? So yes, in other galaxies absolutely yes I can see CHONP as being the elements of life. Possibly silicon based as well. This assumes that we have the same definition of life.

In another UNIVERSE with totally different physical principals at work I would not even know where to begin as I know what we think about this universe we are in. We are able to make observations, conduct experiments, and test ideas in this universe. This allows for legitimate discussion about this universe. If you wish to make up a universe in which neither energy or atoms exist fell free to do so. It's like scribbling incoherently on paper. Anyone can do it and there is no discussion as its make your own rules that don't have to be followed when YOU deem it appropriate not to follow rules.

Are you capable of talking about any topic without the aggression? Why do you need to play that? Stick to the topic, ok?

It's this assumption that all things must be as we know them that gets me. We just can't seem to grasp the concept that things out there might be totally different. If we are being visited they are far superior to us when it comes to flight, so why should it stop there?

[DMC]

The mistake we humans make is thinking because we need this n' that to sustain life everyone/everything else does. We can't live underwater but fish can, we can't fly but birds can.

While I do doubt there is any life on the planets in our solar system, I have no doubts that somewhere out there we find other life forms totally different than what we find here on earth.

The real mystery to me is how they travel from far out in space to earth. Is there a way station along the way? Sort of a truck stop.


Way Station is a 1963 science fiction (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Science_fiction) novel (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Novel) by Clifford D. Simak (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Clifford_D._Simak), originally published as Here Gather the Stars in two parts in Galaxy Magazine (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Galaxy_Magazine) in June and August 1963. Way Station won the 1964 Hugo Award for Best Novel (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Hugo_Award_for_Best_Novel).
Yet you use the same understanding of life that we know to form your opinion that it must be out there somewhere in the same basic form that we would categorize as life. You can call a rock "life" if you redefine the term.

[DMC]

Life as we know it....why? Why would beings/things from the vastness of outer space be governed by our laws and rules? How come no other planets are like this one? So why would "they" be like us when where "they' come from isn't?

Out of the 7 other planets we know of, none are like ours. You better hope if you ever need a liver transplant they look at more than 7 possible candidates.

[Avante]

Yet you use the same understanding of life that we know to form your opinion that it must be out there somewhere in the same basic form that we would categorize as life. You can call a rock "life" if you redefine the term.

I totally agree and thought of that. Just not sure how to talk about this in any other way.

[Avante]

Out of the 7 other planets we know of, none are like ours. You better hope if you ever need a liver transplant they look at more than 7 possible candidates.

I seriously doubt "they" know what a liver is.

[pgardn]

Are you capable of talking about any topic without the aggression? Why do you need to play that? Stick to the topic, ok?

It's this assumption that all things must be as we know them that gets me. We just can't seem to grasp the concept that things out there might be totally different. If we are being visited they are far superior to us when it comes to flight, so why should it stop there?

What?

You gave me an article and I explained it. If that's aggression sorry about that.

What do you mean " all things as we know them" ? We are constantly making up new particles with new theories to explain how they might work? What are you saying? There are a tremendous number of phenomena we can't explain thoroughly or that defy rules we have already made which means the rules might need changing. Science is very dynamic.

[DMC]

I totally agree and thought of that. Just not sure how to talk about this in any other way.
You can't get in that boat and throw stones at this one, since that boat doesn't really exist. We all use basically the same perspective on life and if you argue that something is above anyone's understanding, you're using a logical fallacy called amazing familiarity. It's basically standing on an argument that relies on knowing things that you claim cannot be known.

[DMC]

I seriously doubt "they" know what a liver is.
Unless you're expecting aliens to do a liver transplant, the "they" is obviously referring to doctors.

[Avante]

You can't get in that boat and throw stones at this one, since that boat doesn't really exist. We all use basically the same perspective on life and if you argue that something is above anyone's understanding, you're using a logical fallacy called amazing familiarity. It's basically standing on an argument that relies on knowing things that you claim cannot be known.

When asked about what you or me or anyone thinks is out there, how can we answer that question?

[Avante]

Unless you're expecting aliens to do a liver transplant, the "they" is obviously referring to doctors.

Can we even talk aliens and livers?

[pgardn]

Are you capable of talking about any topic without the aggression? Why do you need to play that? Stick to the topic, ok?

It's this assumption that all things must be as we know them that gets me. We just can't seem to grasp the concept that things out there might be totally different. If we are being visited they are far superior to us when it comes to flight, so why should it stop there?

Another thing we as humans do is use metaphor and analogy to describe phenomena that don't really fit anything we are able to experience. You and I are human and we must have some basis to understand each other to discuss things we observe. So we do rely on similar experience and use agreed upon analogy( which we often don't realize). IWe must fall short in this area though math can help a bit. We are limited. We don't know everything and never will IMO. We just shift our modeling and our math to describe things a bit better. Which then seem to lead to new questions.

[Avante]

Another thing we as humans do is use metaphor and analogy to describe phenomena that don't really fit anything we are able to experience. You and I are human and we must have some basis to understand each other to discuss things we observe. So we do rely on similar experience and use agreed upon analogy( which we often don't realize). IWe must fall short in this area though math can help a bit. We are limited. We don't know everything and never will IMO. We just shift our modeling and our math to describe things a bit better. Which then seem to lead to new questions.

Yes, which is my song n' dance, we are just too limited right now to understand things we haven't experienced as you mentioned. So we have to fall back on what we know. Using our experiences as the guidlines when we really shouldn't. We need to look outside our perimeters/boundaries and try to realize we are unique and others will be also.

[pgardn]

Yes, which is my song n' dance, we are just too limited right now to understand things we haven't experienced as you mentioned. So we have to fall back on what we know. Using our experiences as the guidlines when we really shouldn't. We need to look outside our perimeters/boundaries and try to realize we are unique and others will be also.

What I mean is we must use descriptors such as "it's like a ball rolling down the hill" it's like, it's like... This is where math becomes very important. If we can describe phenomena using math exclusively then we don't have to rely on metaphor and analogy. But nonetheless the math also might be flawed.

What I don't get is what you are trying to propose we do to get around this.

When you are inside watching leaves move you should have a model of molecules of air striking the leaves, the leaves getting pushed, orienting in such a way that catches less wind, and then sprining back again due to elastic tension in the cells of the petiole or branch of the leave only to get rammed by air again. This model works fairly well. But the only reason we can understand this or agree to disagree is based upon a bunch of modeling and analogy and belief in atoms we can't see.

So how do you propose we attempt to describe things that can't be described. I'm not following. You are following a fallacy DMC mentioned?

[Avante]

What I mean is we must use descriptors such as "it's like a ball rolling down the hill" it's like, it's like... This is where math becomes very important. If we can describe phenomena using math exclusively then we don't have to rely on metaphor and analogy. But nonetheless the math also might be flawed.

What I don't get is what you are trying to propose we do to get around this.

When you are inside watching leaves move you should have a model of molecules of air striking the leaves, the leaves getting pushed, orienting in such a way that catches less wind, and then sprining back again due to elastic tension in the cells of the petiole or branch of the leave only to get rammed by air again. This model works fairly well. But the only reason we can understand this or agree to disagree is based upon a bunch of modeling and analogy and belief in atoms we can't see.

So how do you propose we attempt to describe things that can't be described. I'm not following. You are following a fallacy DMC mentioned?

So many sci fi novels written about aliens, little green/gray beings. Barsoom in ERB epic Mars saga. So many have had no problems coming up with far distant worlds and planets and space dwelllers. I'm just curious as to what your sci fi novel would have. Not really too concerned with dealing with things known, this is about the unknown. So do you have a world, a civilization to talk about or are you too limited with our limitations we have spoke of? And I don't mean that as a slam.

[pgardn]

So many sci fi novels written about aliens, little green/gray beings. Barsoom in ERB epic Mars saga. So many have had no problems coming up with far distant worlds and planets and space dwelllers. I'm just curious as to what your sci fi novel would have. Not really too concerned with dealing with things known, this is about the unknown. So do you have a world, a civilization to talk about or are you too limited with our limitations we have spoke of? And I don't mean that as a slam.

No this is a very interesting point.

I find sci fi very boring as our own world is much more inventive than a writers mind. The numbers of strange organisms that exist and are studied by scientists are much more interesting than what movie makers can come up with. I have a number of friends that love old sci fi just because they find it so... I guess juvenile. But they really like them. I won't watch them, they seem so much the same.

From a more physical science point of view I am very interested in the types of moons and planets that might exist based on the great diversity we have already found (The pictures and evaluation of Pluto being the most recent surprise) but trying to put some form of life into a certain situation... Nahh.

I mean for Fck sakes we can't even make aliens that are not bilateral in movies, it's so lame... For me. Head and feet arms... Jesus, get some creativity. The Blob was much better.

[DMC]

When asked about what you or me or anyone thinks is out there, how can we answer that question?

If you answer with anything besides "I don't know" you're blowing smoke. Why do you need to answer it? We are ignorant of these things, so if we form an opinion on something we know nothing about, we're basically building dogma around what should be science. Let's wait until we know something and then speculate just a bit further to build predictive models based on scientific method instead of front porch chatter.

[DMC]

Can we even talk aliens and livers?
Sure we can. We know livers exist and I've seen a few aliens recently, mostly in the Home Depot parking lot looking for day work.

[DMC]

Yes, which is my song n' dance, we are just too limited right now to understand things we haven't experienced as you mentioned. So we have to fall back on what we know. Using our experiences as the guidlines when we really shouldn't. We need to look outside our perimeters/boundaries and try to realize we are unique and others will be also.
You cannot talk outside of your boundaries. You might think you can but how do you get mentally there if it's outside your boundaries? More amazing familiarity. You're approaching epistemology from a 3rd person perspective but you're not a remote viewer. You're actually part of the experiment.

[MultiTroll]

Here is some more solid evidence for life on other planets.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/03/27/odell-beckham-jr-gets-huge-planet-of-the-apes-inspired-tattoo-of-new-York/

[Avante]

No this is a very interesting point.

I find sci fi very boring as our own world is much more inventive than a writers mind. The numbers of strange organisms that exist and are studied by scientists are much more interesting than what movie makers can come up with. I have a number of friends that love old sci fi just because they find it so... I guess juvenile. But they really like them. I won't watch them, they seem so much the same.

From a more physical science point of view I am very interested in the types of moons and planets that might exist based on the great diversity we have already found (The pictures and evaluation of Pluto being the most recent surprise) but trying to put some form of life into a certain situation... Nahh.

I mean for Fck sakes we can't even make aliens that are not bilateral in movies, it's so lame... For me. Head and feet arms... Jesus, get some creativity. The Blob was much better.

Who have you actually read when it comes to sci fi? I take it you really haven't read any of the classic authors and books. If you did I think you'd change your mind. No way this world comes close to comparing to what Arthur C. Clarke, Isacc Asimov, Frank Hebert wrote, but you won't know that until you change your opinion about the sci fi novel. Some of the greatest minds we find in the literary world are in this field.

Olaf Stapledon's "Star Maker" a must read.

Star Maker is a science fiction novel by Olaf Stapledon (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Olaf_Stapledon), published in 1937. The book describes a history of life in the universe, dwarfing in scale Stapledon's previous book, Last and First Men (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Last_and_First_Men) (1930), a history of the human species over two billion years. Star Maker tackles philosophical themes such as the essence of life, of birth, decay and death, and the relationship between creation and creator. A pervading theme is that of progressive unity within and between different civilizations. Some of the elements and themes briefly discussed prefigure later fiction concerning genetic engineering (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Genetic_engineering) and alien life forms. Arthur C. Clarke (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke) considered Star Maker to be one of the finest works of science fiction ever

[Avante]

If you answer with anything besides "I don't know" you're blowing smoke. Why do you need to answer it? We are ignorant of these things, so if we form an opinion on something we know nothing about, we're basically building dogma around what should be science. Let's wait until we know something and then speculate just a bit further to build predictive models based on scientific method instead of front porch chatter.

Well when you take into consideration nobody can prove you wrong why not take a stab at it. And your guess is as good as anyones elses, which is a rarity. Few things find everyone on the same level of ignorance.

I see alien beings that resemble a large snake, a snake with intelligence. Tall and lean, with large eyes and elongated limbs. Very slow in movement but precise and calculated in those movements. They find us amusing in appearance and are totally baffled at our warlike attitudes and aggresive behavior. Curious about why we are no different when it comes to violence than what we were a 1000 years ago when they first discovered us. In their world violence towards a fellow Amonian is unheard of. Only in the swamps and jungles on Zamboria and Tauras where the wild life dwell do they see something similiar to an earthling.

[RandomGuy]

Life on earth emerged very quicky after the mass collisions of the early solar system ended. Other than an RNA history to our DNA exclusive world, there is no evidence any other spontaneous form of life ever competed with our earliest ancestors. Why is this? Is it because life emerging is so incredibly rare as to be essentially miraculous in nature? If not, I submit DNA must therefore be proof of the opposite, a common denominator all potentially life bearing planets - making extraterrestrial life not only probable, but related on a fundamental level to life here on earth.

Yet then why can we not replicate abiogenesis in the laboratory? Im just a layman, perhaps some of the more educated folk here can share their ideas on why DNA has always dominated here, even in our earliest microbial incestors.

Since life has proved possible here, it is definitely possible elsewhere.

Chemistry and physics being what it is, we may be getting some glimmer about how probable.

Organic chemistry follows certain patterns, and those reactions are fairly well understood.

Given the right conditions, i.e. planet in "sweet spot" for liquid water in a cluster of space created from a supernovae there is a pretty good chance there is life elsewhere. I base this on the fact that we are discovering a LOT of planets orbiting stars. That is a lot of lottery tickets.

We have several models of abiogenesis. Remember that DNA has a more primitive version, RNA.

All that requires is a certain amount of organic acids pooling around to have some basic versions start forming. There is more to it of course, such as a lipid bubble that would constitute a very primitive cell membrane for the primitive prokaryotes. Prokaryotes are simply blobs of protoplasm/DNA with no nucleus, and arose before the eukarotes that really started off the chain reaction with the first real specialized structures. Lipids (fats) tend to clump and form naturally as well.

A bit on unicellular organisms:
http://www.ck12.org/biology/Prokaryotic-and-Eukaryotic-Cells/lesson/Prokaryotic-and-Eukaryotic-Cells/


A bit on some of the things about lipid formation
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

More links to other explanations here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/

Both of the above have put it into context of creationism/evolution controversy, but if you filter that out, there are some good links to the underlying science.

[Blake]

"After determining that the ocean beneath the icy surface of Saturn’s moon Enceladus has roughly the same pH as Windex or soapy water -- an indication that the water has been in contact with rock, creating potentially life-friendly chemistry -- scientists are moving on to the trickier hunt for evidence of hydrothermal venting............... "

http://news.discovery.com/space/alien-life-exoplanets/life-friendly-chemistry-revealed-inside-enceladus-151215.htm

[RandomGuy]

No this is a very interesting point.

I find sci fi very boring as our own world is much more inventive than a writers mind. The numbers of strange organisms that exist and are studied by scientists are much more interesting than what movie makers can come up with. I have a number of friends that love old sci fi just because they find it so... I guess juvenile. But they really like them. I won't watch them, they seem so much the same.

From a more physical science point of view I am very interested in the types of moons and planets that might exist based on the great diversity we have already found (The pictures and evaluation of Pluto being the most recent surprise) but trying to put some form of life into a certain situation... Nahh.

I mean for Fck sakes we can't even make aliens that are not bilateral in movies, it's so lame... For me. Head and feet arms... Jesus, get some creativity. The Blob was much better.

Good sci-fi, like any good fiction or art, asks important questions. TV and movies tend to be entertainment and drama overlaid onto the basic questions.

There is some reason to think that life will develop some symmetry, as even primitive life on our planet has such.

[RandomGuy]

"After determining that the ocean beneath the icy surface of Saturn’s moon Enceladus has roughly the same pH as Windex or soapy water -- an indication that the water has been in contact with rock, creating potentially life-friendly chemistry -- scientists are moving on to the trickier hunt for evidence of hydrothermal venting............... "

http://news.discovery.com/space/alien-life-exoplanets/life-friendly-chemistry-revealed-inside-enceladus-151215.htm

Eyup. We will probe, and eventually someone will get some samples back.

What happens if/when the samples include primitive organisms?

[pgardn]

Who have you actually read when it comes to sci fi? I take it you really haven't read any of the classic authors and books. If you did I think you'd change your mind. No way this world comes close to comparing to what Arthur C. Clarke, Isacc Asimov, Frank Hebert wrote, but you won't know that until you change your opinion about the sci fi novel. Some of the greatest minds we find in the literary world are in this field.

Olaf Stapledon's "Star Maker" a must read.

Star Maker is a science fiction novel by Olaf Stapledon (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Olaf_Stapledon), published in 1937. The book describes a history of life in the universe, dwarfing in scale Stapledon's previous book, Last and First Men (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Last_and_First_Men) (1930), a history of the human species over two billion years. Star Maker tackles philosophical themes such as the essence of life, of birth, decay and death, and the relationship between creation and creator. A pervading theme is that of progressive unity within and between different civilizations. Some of the elements and themes briefly discussed prefigure later fiction concerning genetic engineering (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Genetic_engineering) and alien life forms. Arthur C. Clarke (http://www.spurstalk.com/wiki/Arthur_C._Clarke) considered Star Maker to be one of the finest works of science fiction ever


They dont come close for me. Especially if you are specifically interested in life. Assimov was very good at explaining science to the masses. His fiction is a reflection of this.

There is a difference in appreciating the art of film making and story telling compared to the absolute incredible diversity of oddities that many will never appreciate without understanding biology. No human I have ever read comes close to creating what nature has actually given us. So I guess we need to separate these.

One has to attempt to understand biology to really appreciate life and evolution. I suggest you read Stephen J. Goulld's collection of Natural History Articles concerning life on Earth. Hen's Teeth And Horses Toes, As a starter, then the Pandas Thumb.

[pgardn]

Well when you take into consideration nobody can prove you wrong why not take a stab at it. And your guess is as good as anyones elses, which is a rarity. Few things find everyone on the same level of ignorance.

I see alien beings that resemble a large snake, a snake with intelligence. Tall and lean, with large eyes and elongated limbs. Very slow in movement but precise and calculated in those movements. They find us amusing in appearance and are totally baffled at our warlike attitudes and aggresive behavior. Curious about why we are no different when it comes to violence than what we were a 1000 years ago when they first discovered us. In their world violence towards a fellow Amonian is unheard of. Only in the swamps and jungles on Zamboria and Tauras where the wild life dwell do they see something similiar to an earthling.

Always a vertebrate... A snake. Never been used before (Bible go figure)

This is yet again such a colloquial view of life. And honestly I would never read or watch something so washed out and used time and time again.

[pgardn]

Good sci-fi, like any good fiction or art, asks important questions. TV and movies tend to be entertainment and drama overlaid onto the basic questions.

There is some reason to think that life will develop some symmetry, as even primitive life on our planet has such.

No, actually there is not. Bilateral symmetry was a very late and possibly unlikely "invention"

The really interesting question is why it took so long to go from Prokayotic cells to Eukaryotes. This must be an extremely difficult evolutionary step based on the amount of time it appeared to take.

Based on Earth's history we should not be looking for bilateral organisms, we should look specifically for something like bacteria. Which is exactly what we do.

[pgardn]

"After determining that the ocean beneath the icy surface of Saturn’s moon Enceladus has roughly the same pH as Windex or soapy water -- an indication that the water has been in contact with rock, creating potentially life-friendly chemistry -- scientists are moving on to the trickier hunt for evidence of hydrothermal venting............... "

http://news.discovery.com/space/alien-life-exoplanets/life-friendly-chemistry-revealed-inside-enceladus-151215.htm

The moon stuff has become stunning. The 4 moons around Pluto totally unexpected, and 3 of the 4 appear to be very different from each other.

[Blake]

The moon stuff has become stunning. The 4 moons around Pluto totally unexpected, and 3 of the 4 appear to be very different from each other.

What's stunning to me is Saturn being a heat source, almost like it's it's own solar system

[Avante]

They dont come close for me. Especially if you are specifically interested in life. Assimov was very good at explaining science to the masses. His fiction is a reflection of this.

There is a difference in appreciating the art of film making and story telling compared to the absolute incredible diversity of oddities that many will never appreciate without understanding biology. No human I have ever read comes close to creating what nature has actually given us. So I guess we need to separate these.

One has to attempt to understand biology to really appreciate life and evolution. I suggest you read Stephen J. Goulld's collection of Natural History Articles concerning life on Earth. Hen's Teeth And Horses Toes, As a starter, then the Pandas Thumb.

I'm not however interested in the known that's why alien life forms are so compelling this is the unknown which will always trump the known. Going where we haven't gone before is intriguing, simply glossing over old news, nay.

To think that somewhere out there there are planets and beings so different that anything we can imagine is exciting.

[Blake]

Eyup. We will probe, and eventually someone will get some samples back.

What happens if/when the samples include primitive organisms?

The probability of life existing elsewhere in the universe increases exponentially for starters

[Blake]

I'm not however interested in the known that's why alien life forms are so compelling this is the unknown which will always trump the known. Going where we haven't gone before is intriguing, simply glossing over old news, nay.

To think that somewhere out there there are planets and beings so different that anything we can imagine is exciting.

Yeah, it'd be real fascinating to see how other life forms evolved throughout the universe

[Avante]

Yeah, it'd be real fascinating to see how other life forms evolved throughout the universe

Yes it would be and their belief in their Gods also fascinating.

[pgardn]

What's stunning to me is Saturn being a heat source, almost like it's it's own solar system

Gravity is strong and pulls the insides of moons, pretty neat stuff. Pluto apparently has/had an active moon as well.
Truly fascinating.

[Blake]

Yes it would be and their belief in their Gods also fascinating.

No reason to assume they would believe in gods

Or that they're as intelligent as us

[pgardn]

Yes it would be and their belief in their Gods also fascinating.

Why would you expect life elsewhere to contemplate itself? And therefore have beliefs in any thing. Nervous systems really don't need to have this ability, in fact it maybe a disadvantage. It could be argued We are manipulating our world to an extent as to be harmful.

I totally don't get why we think life elsewhere would develop this way. We are close to a "miracle" if you look at the history of life on Earth.

[pgardn]

No reason to assume they would believe in gods

Or that they're as intelligent as us

Beat at me to it.

[Avante]

No reason to assume they would believe in gods

Or that they're as intelligent as us

There is also no reason to assume they don't have Gods or are less intelligent than earthlings. As we all know something is going on with all these UFO sightings, just too many of them. And if they are capable of coming from other galaxies they are far superior to us when it comes to flight. Which would take superior intellect.

[baseline bum]

Fermi Paradox imo. Where is everybody?

I don't think it's much of a paradox. The universe mostly empty space, so the distances between intelligent life forms are likely to be enormous. When you factor in that information can't travel faster than light, it's not really surprising that there would be no contact.

[Blake]

There is also no reason to assume they don't have Gods or are less intelligent than earthlings. As we all know something is going on with all these UFO sightings, just too many of them. And if they are capable of coming from other galaxies they are far superior to us when it comes to flight. Which would take superior intellect.

Yeah, if they're fast superior to us, they're probably shaking their heads and laughing at us in an alien way that we can't comprehend for believing in gods.

Like how we shake our heads and laugh that we all used to think the earth was flat.

[Avante]

Yeah, if they're fast superior to us, they're probably shaking their heads and laughing at us in an alien way that we can't comprehend for believing in gods.

Like how we shake our heads and laugh that we all used to think the earth was flat.


I think it would be more about them seeing us as confused inferiors with our misunderstandings about the Gods. Something they never questioned or had divided ways of worship. A global understanding of the Gods. Yes a group of superior beings.

[Blake]

I think it would be more about them seeing us as confused inferiors with our misunderstandings about the Gods. Something they never questioned or had divided ways of worship. A global religion.

Neh, my way makes sense. Yours relies on them proving that gods exist.

[Avante]

Neh, my way makes sense. Yours relies on them proving that gods exist.

Who said they had to prove anything? This thing about a hide and seek God is what we play. No reason to assume they have to.

I said they never questioned it, why would they when their Gods dwell among them?

[pgardn]

Here is another problem with the Fermi Paradox and why Physicists need to study the history of life on Earth:



With high probability, some of these stars will have Earth (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth)-like planets, and if the Earth is typical, some might develop intelligent (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_intelligence) life.




Enrico, big fella, the history of life on Earth really shows us how improbable intelligent life should be. If you look at the history of just vertebrates it shows how improbable they most likely are. Re run the history of life over and over and the highest form of life is most likely bacteria at the very most. It took over 2 billion years just to get eukaryotic cells.
The universe is only about what, 13 billion years old. Just getting single cells that are precursors to multicellularity with differentiation in function... Why? This clearly indicates to me Eukaryotic cells are extremely unlikely to create through evolutionary processes.

[Avante]

Here is another problem with the Fermi Paradox and why Physicists need to study the history of life on Earth:



With high probability, some of these stars will have Earth (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth)-like planets, and if the Earth is typical, some might develop intelligent (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_intelligence) life.




Enrico, big fella, the history of life on Earth really shows us how improbable intelligent life should be. If you look at the history of just vertebrates it shows how improbable they most likely are. Re run the history of life over and over and the highest form of life is most likely bacteria at the very most. It took over 2 billion years just to get eukaryotic cells.
The universe is only about what, 13 billion years old. Just getting single cells that are precursors to multicellularity with differentiation in function... Why? This clearly indicates to me Eukaryotic cells are extremely unlikely to create through evolutionary processes.

Once again how do we know any of that would pertain to beings from another demension or a galaxy far far away. Everything about other life forms could be totally different. To try and use our understanding of things when we actually have no idea how things might be when dealing with alien life forms....why?

[pgardn]

Once again how do we know any of that would pertain to beings from another demension or a galaxy far far away. Everything about other life forms could be totally different. To try and use our understanding of things when we actually have no idea how things might be when dealing with alien life forms....why?

Give me a definition of life then.

I must have this in order to discuss other life forms. What makes something alive?

[pgardn]

If you answer with anything besides "I don't know" you're blowing smoke. Why do you need to answer it? We are ignorant of these things, so if we form an opinion on something we know nothing about, we're basically building dogma around what should be science. Let's wait until we know something and then speculate just a bit further to build predictive models based on scientific method instead of front porch chatter.

[clambake]

a bunch of superior beings creating life on different planets, sorta like a league, which means we're the shithole.

[pgardn]

If you answer with anything besides "I don't know" you're blowing smoke. Why do you need to answer it? We are ignorant of these things, so if we form an opinion on something we know nothing about, we're basically building dogma around what should be science. Let's wait until we know something and then speculate just a bit further to build predictive models based on scientific method instead of front porch chatter.


You cannot talk outside of your boundaries. You might think you can but how do you get mentally there if it's outside your boundaries? More amazing familiarity. You're approaching epistemology from a 3rd person perspective but you're not a remote viewer. You're actually part of the experiment.

[Avante]

Give me a definition of life then.

I must have this in order to discuss other life forms. What makes something alive?

We really don't know what makes other life forms alive thats why this is a great topic. No need to wander off into why we are alive, that means nothing here. We are the known, they are the unknown. And being the unknown how can we possibly use our/earthlings/human limitations/laws and rules to explain anything about these unknown species of whatever life is in their relm?

Imagine ancient man the first time he encountered a lake/river/ocean. Obviously nothing could live there.

[pgardn]

If you answer with anything besides "I don't know" you're blowing smoke. Why do you need to answer it? We are ignorant of these things, so if we form an opinion on something we know nothing about, we're basically building dogma around what should be science. Let's wait until we know something and then speculate just a bit further to build predictive models based on scientific method instead of front porch chatter.


We really don't know what makes other life forms alive that why this is a great topic. No need to wander off into why we are alive, that means nothing here. We are the known, they are the unknown. And being the unknown how can we possibly use our/earthlings/human limitations/laws and rules to explain anything about these unknown species of whatever life is in their relm?

Why do you refer to these other things as life then, use something else. I have a definition of what makes life.

So do these things in your mind reproduce? Just one of many questions that are possible to try to understand what you or others propose to invent.

[Blake]

We really don't know what makes other life forms alive thats why this is a great topic.

Discussing this with you is like discussing it with a freshman firing up some herb. ,

Difference is you're fat and old.

When we say we're looking for life, we're going on the definition we know.

[Avante]

Why do you refer to these other things as life then, use something else. I have a definition of what makes life.

So do these things in your mind reproduce? Just one of many questions that are possible to try to understand what you or others propose to invent.

You have a definition of what we know as life. Whatever definition they have might be totally different. They wouldn't need oxygen or blood or any of those things we need to sustain life as we undertand it. An intelligent vapor? Fog like beings?

I have no reason to believe they would reproduce as we understand it.

[Blake]

An intelligent vapor? Fog like beings?


Whoa it could be in your bong, dude.

[Avante]

Discussing this with you is like discussing it with a freshman firing up some herb. ,

Difference is you're fat and old.

When we say we're looking for life, we're going on the definition we know.

Let's rise above the juvenile and immature Blake, it's distracting.


I agree about how can we talk about alien life forms unless we go with our understanding of life. Which is part of the mystery and what makes this so interesting.

[pgardn]

You have a definition of what we know as life. Whatever definition they have might be totally different. They wouldn't need oxygen or blood or any of those things we need to sustain life as we undertand it. An intelligent vapor? Fog like beings?

I have no reason to believe they would reproduce as we understand it.

So it does not reproduce.

Can it sense it's environment?

[Avante]

Whoa it could be in your bong, dude.

Or it could be the first stage of evolution on some far off planet?

[Avante]

So it does not reproduce.

Can it sense it's environment?

Not saying it doesn't reproduce, I am saying it's nothing remotely similiar to what we think of as reproduction.

Absolutely aware of everything in it's world.

[pgardn]

Not saying it doesn't reproduce, I am saying it's nothing remotely similiar to what we think of as reproduction.

Absolutely aware of everything in it's world.

Does it make more of itself? not asking for a mechanism.

How does it sense it's environment? What does it use?
Can it sense energy (ex. Light waves, IR "heat", microwaves)?
Can it sense chemical structures? (Gases, liquids of different types)?

[Avante]

Does it make more of itself? not asking for a mechanism.

How does it sense it's environment? What does it use?
Can it sense energy (ex. Light waves, IR "heat", microwaves)?
Can it sense chemical structures? (Gases, liquids of different types)?

That would depend on what planet/dimension/relm the different "life?" forms are from. Obviously there would be differences.

I however have no problems seeing beings able to muliple when they see fit. Things that need the proper temp to survive. But this could be frigid to scorching for us. Or even unbearable.

Sight, hearing, feel, smell, something different than what we think of. And unique to whatever world we are on.

[Blake]

Let's rise above the juvenile and immature Blake, it's distracting.


It's just a matter of time before you get angry and act childish because of your frustration at thinking you're right while everyone else with at least an average IQ tells you you're not.

[pgardn]

That would depend on what planet/dimension/relm the different "life?" forms are from. Obviously there would be differences.

I however have no problems seeing beings able to muliple when they see fit. Things that need the proper temp to survive. But this could be frigid to scorching for us. Or even unbearable.

Sight, hearing, feel, smell, something different than what we think of.

So what exactly can it sense?

Energy?

You said it was aware of everything, got a mechanism of how its aware? And what it's aware of?

[Avante]

It's just a matter of time before you get angry and act childish because of your frustration at thinking you're right while everyone else with at least an average IQ tells you you're not.

There is no right or wrong here, how could there be? We have no answers just questions, this should be obvious.

[SpursforSix]

There is no right or wrong here, how could there be? We have no answers just questions, this should be obvious.

I've got answers.

[Avante]

So what exactly can it sense?

Energy?

What are you considering....it.....to be? And if you say alien life forms, then we are talking about alot of differences.

[Avante]

I've got answers.

The only question we can really answer right now is we don't have a clue what might really be out there far beyond our boundaries.

[I. Hustle]

Maybe this is our bigfoot explanation. We see something odd and different and think of it as an apelike creature. Whose to say that it isn't some sort of insulated suit. Maybe their planet is of a much hotter temperature and it's freezing here on earth. Their suit might be made to keep them warm. It's what could also be slowing them down. We never see them because they have learned to travel through portals.

Find the bigfoot, find your alien.

[pgardn]

What are you considering....it.....to be? And if you say alien life forms, then we are talking about alot of differences.

You said it was aware of everything, please elaborate.
Im the one with the difficulty of imagining world's without energy and or atoms, because this is the basis of everything I attempt to understand. These are my models to work with. These are the basics. I don't know of anything outside of this. You create. This is your baby. So help me out.

[pgardn]

Maybe this is our bigfoot explanation. We see something odd and different and think of it as an apelike creature. Whose to say that it isn't some sort of insulated suit. Maybe their planet is of a much hotter temperature and it's freezing here on earth. Their suit might be made to keep them warm. It's what could also be slowing them down. We never see them because they have learned to travel through portals.

Find the bigfoot, find your alien.

Whats a portal?

[Avante]

Maybe this is our bigfoot explanation. We see something odd and different and think of it as an apelike creature. Whose to say that it isn't some sort of insulated suit. Maybe their planet is of a much hotter temperature and it's freezing here on earth. Their suit might be made to keep them warm. It's what could also be slowing them down. We never see them because they have learned to travel through portals.

Find the bigfoot, find your alien.

Bigfoot being those who crash landed here eons ago, hmmmm?

[SpursforSix]

Whats a portal?

bend over, I'll fucking show you a portal

[SpursforSix]

Maybe this is our bigfoot explanation. We see something odd and different and think of it as an apelike creature. Whose to say that it isn't some sort of insulated suit. Maybe their planet is of a much hotter temperature and it's freezing here on earth. Their suit might be made to keep them warm. It's what could also be slowing them down. We never see them because they have learned to travel through portals.

Find the bigfoot, find your alien.

I was thinking this and then realized it didn't make a lick of sense. Most likely, Bigfoot is a hologram or just simple image projection. Probably just by some people.

[pgardn]

bend over, I'll fucking show you a portal

This would require you bending over Im thinkin .

[SpursforSix]

This would require you bending over Im thinkin .

I know. But the joke doesn't work that way.

Bend me over, I'll show you a fucking portal.

hahaha....maybe it does work after all.

[I. Hustle]

Whats a portal?

A doorway. A way for them to travel. Maybe this whole time we are looking for flying saucers and, instead, they just use portals. Kind of like teleportation.

[Avante]

You said it was aware of everything, please elaborate.
Im the one with the difficulty of imagining world's without energy and or atoms, because this is the basis of everything I attempt to understand. These are my models to work with. These are the basics. I don't know of anything outside of this. You create. This is your baby. So help me out.

Why would they need "our" atoms and "our" energy when everything else is totally different? In their world things could come from something else, which is why they are so different. They aren't under out same restrictions and principles.

And, we aren't suppose to be able to understand the unknown.

My tune is when it comes to UFO/aliens/little grey/green men, the first thing we doi is what yoiu are doing, trying to explain/understand things using our law/rules/principles. How can that be done when it's pretty obvious they will be totally different from us?

[pgardn]

I know. But the joke doesn't work that way.

Bend me over, I'll show you a fucking portal.

hahaha....maybe it does work after all.

I wish to pass on observing portals then in either joke.

[Avante]

Interesting topic, now that we see the arrival of those who don't share the interest. It's time to move on.

[pgardn]

A doorway. A way for them to travel. Maybe this whole time we are looking for flying saucers and, instead, they just use portals. Kind of like teleportation.

So it's a way to start at one place in the universe and end up in a completely different location without having to take into account travel and such details as not being able to travel faster than the speed of light. And so how are these portals connected?

[SpursforSix]

So it's a way to start at one place in the universe and end up in a completely different location without having to take into account travel and such details as not being able to travel faster than the speed of light. And so how are these portals connected?

the same way any entrance and exit are connected. If you walk out a movie exit, you're going from one place to another. There really isn't anything connecting the two spaces. One second, you're inside, the next, you're outside.

[pgardn]

Why would they need "our" atoms and "our" energy when everything else is totally different? In their world things could come from something else, which is why they are so different. They aren't under out same restrictions and principles.

And, we aren't suppose to be able to understand the unknown.

My tune is when it comes to UFO/aliens/little grey/green men, the first thing we doi is what yoiu are doing, trying to explain/understand things using our law/rules/principles. How can that be done when it's pretty obvious they will be totally different from us?

So we are basically going nowhere if we can't begin to describe the very basics of your unknown except it's different.

Can we have a hint as to how it's different? A comparison of some sort. This is like running into a large barrier if the inventors of these completely different worlds can't even describe them.

[pgardn]

the same way any entrance and exit are connected. If you walk out a movie exit, you're going from one place to another. There really isn't anything connecting the two spaces. One second, you're inside, the next, you're outside.

So what exactly the difference from being inside and outside?

[SpursforSix]

So what exactly the difference from being inside and outside?

you're in the movie theater and then you're in the parking lot

[pgardn]

you're in the movie theater and then you're in the parking lot

As it pertains to wookies or whatever I Hustle hairy thing was?
In going from the movie theatre to the parking lot we just walled off the space that was already present when we built the theatre.

[SpursforSix]

As it pertains to wookies or whatever I Hustle hairy thing was?
In going from the movie theatre to the parking lot we just walled off the space that was already present when we built the theatre.

I don't know how IHustle used it. Be careful when reading his posts. They are mostly jibberish. He once told me he was working on a basketball rim that had magnets and would draw the ball in to the hoop.

[I. Hustle]

As you see it, it's impossible. For someone who has learned to bend the rules, it might not be that difficult. It might be as easy as "going from inside to outside". It could be as easy as a type of factory where the portals are held. When one is needed they just call it down and go where they need to go. For all we know, the portals can be powered by something intangible.

[DMC]

Well when you take into consideration nobody can prove you wrong why not take a stab at it. And your guess is as good as anyones elses, which is a rarity. Few things find everyone on the same level of ignorance.
Sure, if you just feel like you need to say something on the matter, knock yourself out.


I see alien beings that resemble a large snake, a snake with intelligence. Tall and lean, with large eyes and elongated limbs. Very slow in movement but precise and calculated in those movements. They find us amusing in appearance and are totally baffled at our warlike attitudes and aggresive behavior. Curious about why we are no different when it comes to violence than what we were a 1000 years ago when they first discovered us. In their world violence towards a fellow Amonian is unheard of. Only in the swamps and jungles on Zamboria and Tauras where the wild life dwell do they see something similiar to an earthling.
So they pronounce actual words and use the human phonetic alphabet. Way to think outside the box.

[pgardn]

As you see it, it's impossible. For someone who has learned to bend the rules, it might not be that difficult. It might be as easy as "going from inside to outside". It could be as easy as a type of factory where the portals are held. When one is needed they just call it down and go where they need to go. For all we know, the portals can be powered by something intangible.

The creativity is indeed astounding.
Its almost like I wished I never learned anything, not even language, and had never been around other humans.
Cleansing myself of all perceived realities and human endeavor to understand, I too might have come up with universes in the dirt under my fingernails. One of the greatest thinkers of all time, Albert Einstein, of course never thought about problems with clocks in proposing special relativity. It just came to him from a clean slate.

Christ...

powering intangible portals, wow... They need to be powered, you just can't walk through an undercharged intangible portal... This would make all positive charges turn negative and atoms would blow apart. Pieces of atoms could end up traveling so slowly they would chew on space-time and create an envelope of plasma approaching infinite temperatures.
We would no longer call them atoms, they would basically be antispace.

Im getting the hang of it I think. No thinking, antithetical anti thinking. Letting loose here, be careful, you might be astounded and drown in drivel.

[baseline bum]

Whats a portal?

You aim the orange one where you wanna go in and the blue one where you wanna come out. Or sometimes you just dick around.

https://49.media.tumblr.com/9a5e8d10cf6cf732a14a2be0cd50e5a5/tumblr_n4ehi3rkiV1rf9eyuo1_500.gif

[MultiTroll]

Do other planets have Trader Joes?

[RandomGuy]

We really don't know what makes other life forms alive thats why this is a great topic. No need to wander off into why we are alive, that means nothing here. We are the known, they are the unknown. And being the unknown how can we possibly use our/earthlings/human limitations/laws and rules to explain anything about these unknown species of whatever life is in their [realm]?

Imagine ancient man the first time he encountered a lake/river/ocean. Obviously nothing could live there.

The laws of physics are, as far as we can tell, universal.

That will dictate a great deal.

[RandomGuy]

You aim the orange one where you wanna go in and the blue one where you wanna come out. Or sometimes you just dick around.

https://49.media.tumblr.com/9a5e8d10cf6cf732a14a2be0cd50e5a5/tumblr_n4ehi3rkiV1rf9eyuo1_500.gif

One of the best games ever made, IMO.

[SpursforSix]

One of the best games ever made, IMO.

x2. I hope they come out with Portal 3.

[I. Hustle]

The creativity is indeed astounding.
Its almost like I wished I never learned anything, not even language, and had never been around other humans.
Cleansing myself of all perceived realities and human endeavor to understand, I too might have come up with universes in the dirt under my fingernails. One of the greatest thinkers of all time, Albert Einstein, of course never thought about problems with clocks in proposing special relativity. It just came to him from a clean slate.

Christ...

powering intangible portals, wow... They need to be powered, you just can't walk through an undercharged intangible portal... This would make all positive charges turn negative and atoms would blow apart. Pieces of atoms could end up traveling so slowly they would chew on space-time and create an envelope of plasma approaching infinite temperatures.
We would no longer call them atoms, they would basically be antispace.

Im getting the hang of it I think. No thinking, antithetical anti thinking. Letting loose here, be careful, you might be astounded and drown in drivel.


That's what I'm saying though. You're thinking of travel, time, atoms etc. has a ceiling. What I am talking about is beings that have seen that ceiling and just completely crashed through it.

It's like all these people that have been abducted. They are usually brought back. At least the ones we hear about. I'm thinking that these other beings bring them because they don't understand us and are more than likely scared of us in a way. Almost like, because of disease and pollutants, we could contaminate them.

You laugh because I mentioned Bigfoot. They could be a variety of types. For all I know there could be a Cyclops or a half humanoid half spider type or maybe they can camouflage themselves so that they appear invisible. We have no idea.

[RandomGuy]

It's like all these people that have been abducted. They are usually brought back. At least the ones we hear about. I'm thinking that these other beings bring them because they don't understand us and are more than likely scared of us in a way. Almost like, because of disease and pollutants, we could contaminate them.


We don't really have any good evidence that these people were abducted.

First hand experience counts little toward that, if unsupported by corroborating lines of evidence.

There are people that claim to exist on nothing but air. Should we believe that too?

[I. Hustle]

We don't really have any good evidence that these people were abducted.

First hand experience counts little toward that, if unsupported by corroborating lines of evidence.

There are people that claim to exist on nothing but air. Should we believe that too?

Just because you don't believe it to be true, doesn't mean that it is.
These portals would explain a lot. Heck I bet we've benefited from them and vice versa. If we were to stumble across one of their portals I bet we would see a lot of similarities. They probably have "jobs", restaurant type of places, vehicles to get around in, etc.

We don't have evidence for those that came back. Maybe some just styed. There are TONS of unexplained disappearances.

I know you don't believe it but that doesn't make it not so. They could be coming back to our dimension, planet or whatever just to refuel. Maybe we have something here that they need to power their world. Like methane, water, fear, a child's laughter. Who knows?!

[SpursforSix]

We don't really have any good evidence that these people were abducted.

First hand experience counts little toward that, if unsupported by corroborating lines of evidence.

There are people that claim to exist on nothing but air. Should we believe that too?

that's different. I sort of understand what IHustle is getting at. And there have been abductions. The most credible account I heard was about this little girl that was abducted at night and her description of how she was moved sounded like the portal idea. And she came back through the same thing.

[I. Hustle]

that's different. I sort of understand what IHustle is getting at. And there have been abductions. The most credible account I heard was about this little girl that was abducted at night and her description of how she was moved sounded like the portal idea. And she came back through the same thing.

Exactly! It's been documented! The problem was, she was too young to really explain the things she saw. From her accounts, one of the beings actually looked after her while she was there.

It sounds crazy but I don't see how it can just be dismissed because it doesn't jive with time and space as we know it. I don't think we are the be all end all.

[SpursforSix]

Exactly! It's been documented! The problem was, she was too young to really explain the things she saw. From her accounts, one of the beings actually looked after her while she was there.

It sounds crazy but I don't see how it can just be dismissed because it doesn't jive with time and space as we know it. I don't think we are the be all end all.

I think the fact that she was young is what makes this the most compelling account. She wasn't motivated by money or trying to get press. And little kids are less likely to mentally block out the event as an adult might. One of the more chilling parts of her account was that this parallel world she went to somehow fed on human emotion or energy. Not in her words but that's what some of the podcast guys have interpreted. And more and more it seems like there is some link between aliens and the paranormal.

[pgardn]

That's what I'm saying though. You're thinking of travel, time, atoms etc. has a ceiling. What I am talking about is beings that have seen that ceiling and just completely crashed through it.

It's like all these people that have been abducted. They are usually brought back. At least the ones we hear about. I'm thinking that these other beings bring them because they don't understand us and are more than likely scared of us in a way. Almost like, because of disease and pollutants, we could contaminate them.

You laugh because I mentioned Bigfoot. They could be a variety of types. For all I know there could be a Cyclops or a half humanoid half spider type or maybe they can camouflage themselves so that they appear invisible. We have no idea.


You are calling them beings.

Why?

You just made a ceiling.

[I. Hustle]

You are calling them beings.

Why?

You just made a ceiling.

That's because I have no other words to describe them. You can feel how you want but it is what it is. From what I have read and what I have heard, it's only a matter of time before we make contact. There seem to be two factions. One is intent on taking what they can from us and the other is a more understanding group.

[MultiTroll]

After the encounter with these beings, will new ice cream flavors emerge?

[TDMVPDPOY]

After the encounter with these beings, will new ice cream flavors emerge?

its called tentacle porn, the japs already know something we dont know

[pgardn]

That's because I have no other words to describe them. You can feel how you want but it is what it is. From what I have read and what I have heard, it's only a matter of time before we make contact. There seem to be two factions. One is intent on taking what they can from us and the other is a more understanding group.


Why do they even care about us?

This seems to be a very human way of dealing with us. Get creative, you have sullied your reputation with the last few posts.

[pgardn]

This evolved into one of silliest threads I can remember.

We got people on here thinking they are so flexible and unique in their thinking presenting some of the most mundane, colloquial ideas while absolutely astounding themselves. This is entertaining. Please don't stop.

[Avante]

Alien dreams, hmmmm?

If the "life?" we think we are encountering with the overwelming amount of UFO sightings we have experienced are any indication of what we are really up against then "they" can't be all that different than humans. They can't fly*** themselves, aren't overly large, and do have sight and can survive in our atmosphere (could have some sort of breathing device). So do they look at success and failure like we do, do they celebrate holidays, music? Do they elect their leaders?

Then there's always a chance they do nothing even remotely similiar to what humans do. And are as different from us as it can possibly get. It does appear they aren't aggressive, at least the ones with the technology to travel the distance they must be traveling to get here and back. Of course there could be a world where they are barbaric and vicious, but lack the intellect to do much more than slay and eat.

*** remote control? Sending out robot craft to see what our reaction is? Roswell a plot to watch how we act to those from other places. While the little beings found there were legit they were just crash dummies, planted to look like what we expect to see.

[MultiTroll]

its called tentacle porn, the japs already know something we dont know
Sick.
No mention of ice cream either.

[I. Hustle]

Why do they even care about us?

This seems to be a very human way of dealing with us. Get creative, you have sullied your reputation with the last few posts.

You have sullied your reputation for going back and forth with me. I was just describing Monsters Inc. :)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/film/MonstersInc/monsters%20inc-xlarge.jpg

[pgardn]

You have sullied your reputation for going back and forth with me. I was just describing Monsters Inc. :)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/film/MonstersInc/monsters%20inc-xlarge.jpg

Exactly.

Dead ended. You basically rely on pictures because the ideas won't carry the day.

And you could not find words to describe your possibilities.
Of course you could not.

[pgardn]

Alien dreams, hmmmm?

If the "life?" we think we are encountering with the overwelming amount of UFO sightings we have experienced are any indication of what we are really up against then "they" can't be all that different than humans. They can't fly*** themselves, aren't overly large, and do have sight and can survive in our atmosphere (could have some sort of breathing device). So do they look at success and failure like we do, do they celebrate holidays, music? Do they elect their leaders?

Then there's always a chance they do nothing even remotely similiar to what humans do. And are as different from us as it can possibly get. It does appear they aren't aggressive, at least the ones with the technology to travel the distance they must be traveling to get here and back. Of course there could be a world where they are barbaric and vicious, but lack the intellect to do much more than slay and eat.

*** remote control? Sending out robot craft to see what our reaction is? Roswell a plot to watch how we act to those from other places. While the little beings found there were legit they were just crash dummies, planted to look like what we expect to see.

I have often wondered if relatives will be able to look up our musings after we are dead and gone and feel shamed.

[I. Hustle]

Exactly.

Dead ended. You basically rely on pictures because the ideas won't carry the day.

And you could not find words to describe your possibilities.
Of course you could not.

Wait, did you just flip the script? Are you messing with me now? I just admitted that everything I said was a joke and that I was just describing a kids movie. Are YOU now living rent free?

[pgardn]

Wait, did you just flip the script? Are you messing with me now? I just admitted that everything I said was a joke and that I was just describing a kids movie. Are YOU now living rent free?

Oh go that route.
Yeah of course your description with words had to be a kids movie.
How could I have missed it?

Of course you were always just joking. It was so obvious. But it wasn't.
Please continue.

[I. Hustle]

Oh go that route.
Yeah of course your description with words had to be a kids movie.
How could I have missed it?

Of course you were always just joking. It was so obvious. But it wasn't.
Please continue.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!

[Avante]

I have often wondered if relatives will be able to look up our musings after we are dead and gone and feel shamed.

Then you do have an imagination.

[I. Hustle]

I have often wondered if relatives will be able to look up our musings after we are dead and gone and feel shamed.

Will they look at our porn and be disgusted or will they think it's lame? Like the black and white stuff they used to have.

[Blake]

Will they look at our porn and be disgusted or will they think it's lame? Like the black and white stuff they used to have.

It'll be like a national geographic special to them

[Avante]

If "they?" were here on earth long ago why did they leave and go into hiding when they come back to visit? Are they afraid of us?

[SpursforSix]

If "they?" were here on earth long ago why did they leave and go into hiding when they come back to visit? Are they afraid of us?

If you're doing an experiment on some animals and want to observe them, you don't just pop into the jungle and say, "hi". You let the experiment/manipulation run its course.

[Avante]

If you're doing an experiment on some animals and want to observe them, you don't just pop into the jungle and say, "hi". You let the experiment/manipulation run its course.

Which takes us back to time and how it could be totally different out there.

[RandomGuy]

This evolved into one of silliest threads I can remember.

We got people on here thinking they are so flexible and unique in their thinking presenting some of the most mundane, colloquial ideas while absolutely astounding themselves. This is entertaining. Please don't stop.

Thank you internets. :D

My remark earlier regarding bilateral symmetry was driven by an article regarding fractals and earths organic patterns. I would be hard pressed to find the article years after reading it.


That said, I wouldn't care to speculate that there are any gaurantees, given how small our sample size is, relative to the universe. I would guess that any life forms would be very different.

Even speculating what forms naturally would occur is silly, IMO, because a species capable of bridging interstellar distances is unlikely to be restricted by their original natural form. They could look like anything they want to, barring any deep cultural disposition to original forms.

We would likely be of marginal interest to such beings, given our very limited energy/technology base. Probably about as interesting as the proverbial anthill.

[pgardn]

Which takes us back to time and how it could be totally different out there.

Time is different out there. There is no such thing as simultaneity when large distances are considered.

The constant is the speed of light. Time is not a constant, neither is space. Have you heard of Einstein?
Have you heard of the twin thought experiment. Do you know we have set atomic clocks so they are synchronized and then moved one of them away quickly and then back to its synchronized partner and the clock that has traveled is behind? Ie it's younger?

Hello McFly... Avante has sort of found Einstein.
I think the above is an apt movie quote in this case.

[pgardn]

Thank you internets. :D

My remark earlier regarding bilateral symmetry was driven by an article regarding fractals and earths organic patterns. I would be hard pressed to find the article years after reading it.


That said, I wouldn't care to speculate that there are any gaurantees, given how small our sample size is, relative to the universe. I would guess that any life forms would be very different.

Even speculating what forms naturally would occur is silly, IMO, because a species capable of bridging interstellar distances is unlikely to be restricted by their original natural form. They could look like anything they want to, barring any deep cultural disposition to original forms.

We would likely be of marginal interest to such beings, given our very limited energy/technology base. Probably about as interesting as the proverbial anthill.

Neither would I.

But based on the experiment of life already run for us I'm thinking its very difficult to make eukaryotic cells. (2 billion years to make eukaryotic cells in a universe~13 billion years old?, damn) And if you don't make eukaryotic you won't end up with bilateral. And if you don't end up bilateral you will never end up with a nervous system that is complex... And if you don't end up with complex nervous systems you are not going to get creatures strange enough to contemplate their own existence and or make up amusing stories about little green men in New Mexico.

I find this interesting. But it could be entirely wrong. For now, I'm running with the above and enjoying the perceived thinking out side box in which the interest of the limitations of said box completely escape some. I mean if one has no idea how big the box is how do think outside of it?

I bet some have the answers without giving the box a second thought.

[Avante]

Time is different out there. There is no such thing as simultaneity when large distances are considered.

The constant is the speed of light. Time is not a constant, neither is space. Have you heard of Einstein?
Have you heard of the twin thought experiment. Do you know we have set atomic clocks so they are synchronized and then moved one of them away quickly and then back to its synchronized partner and the clock that has traveled is behind? Ie it's younger?

Hello McFly... Avante has sort of found Einstein.
I think the above is an apt movie quote in this case.

Did you miss the word...might? And you must stop with this ridiculous ...we. Stop thinking the answers have been found when it's real obvious they haven't been.

Things ..might....be completely different way out there and yes one of those....might...be time. Stop being so simple and limited, this is not simple or limited.

[pgardn]

Did you miss the word...might? And you must stop with this ridiculous ...we. Stop thinking the answers have been found when it's real obvious they haven't been.

Things ..might....be completely different way out there and yes one of those....might...be time. Stop being so simple and limited, this is not simple or limited.

Why don't you read what others, with far more interest about the idea of time than you, have to say about the subject?

If someone just walked into your room and stated that the Blues were created from the foundations of new wave and punk rock would you object? You would not question theirTIMING of events?

[Avante]

Why don't you read what others, with far more interest about the idea of time than you, have to say about the subject?

If someone just walked into your room and stated that the Blues were created from the foundations of new wave and punk rock would you object? You would not question theirTIMING of events?

I don't care what anyone says about time, they live here not out there.

Look at what we have today compared to 1000 years ago. Where was science then compared to today? Now where will things be 1000 years from now. Will there be new discovers, if not then why not stop searching? We don't know how things might be like out in the vastness of space.

Think how puny we are when looking at the big picture but we know how it all works :rolleyes Did we know how it all worked 1000 years ago?

Speaking of Einstein, he did say this....



Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.



Speaking of spirits....


We live in a physical world with its four known space-time dimensions of length, width, height (or depth) and time. The God of the Bible, however, dwells in a different dimension—the spirit realm—beyond the natural perception of our physical senses. It’s not that God isn’t real; it’s a matter of Him not being limited by the physical laws and dimensions that govern our world (Isaiah 57:15 Isaiah 57:15For thus said the high and lofty One that inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
American King James Version (http://www.spurstalk.com/help/AKJV)×). He is spirit (John 4:24 John 4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
American King James Version (http://www.spurstalk.com/help/AKJV)×).


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I get this isn't about the existence of God, but we are talking about things that like God we don't know the answers. No God ever perceived time like us humans do, so just maybe............................................. ..

[pgardn]

I don't care what anyone says about time, they live here not out there.

Look at what we have today compared to 1000 years ago. Where was science then compared to today? Now where will things be 1000 years from now. Wil there be new discovers, if not then why not stop searching? We don't know how things might be like out in the vastness of space.

Think how puny we are when looking at the big picture but we know how it all works :rolleyes Did we know how it all worked 1000 years ago?

Speaking of Einstein, he did say this....



Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.



That's exactly the point, out there. So you don't care what anyone says yet you quote Einstein. But don't give a damn about how his theories are incredibly and increasingly PREDICTIVE. So by observing modeling and experimenting, actual finding something predictive does not impress you at all?
What does the idea that we will learn to change our ideas about the way we perceive phenomenon change have to do with anything? This is how we appear to work, we will change our ideas after actually attempting to observe, model, and experiment. You can't handle this and think it's all useless?

Yes Einstein said this. Because when he saw that phenomenon could be fit to math he got very excited and tried to unify things using his ideas and it did not work.

He also said God does not play dice.

What in your opinion was he referring to?

[Avante]

That's exactly the point, out there. So you don't care what anyone says yet you quote Einstein. But don't give a damn about how his theories are incredibly and increasingly PREDICTIVE. So by observing modeling and experimenting, actual finding something predictive does not impress you at all?
What does the idea that we will learn to change our ideas about the way we perceive phenomenon change have to do with anything? This is how we appear to work, we will change our ideas after actually attempting to observe, model, and experiment. You can't handle this and think it's all useless?

Yes Einstein said this. Because when he saw that phenomenon could be fit to math he got very excited and tried to unify things using his ideas and it did not work.

He also said God does not play dice.

What in your opinion was he referring to?

Isn't it....God does not play dice with the Universe? But I've never delved into that so..? I would suppose it's something about being a non gambler.

My thing is how can we really think mere man has the answers to to the vastness of something we can't even fathom the size of? There could be places out there so far off what we know it's ridiculous. Their day is a month by our standards, the beings? drink but don't eat and they never age.....and on and on...

This idea that we have found the answers to how things are out there is silly. I am talking about other galaxies.

Barsoom in the Tureaud galaxy is ruled by a warrior tribe called the Venuatians. They move about on gliders and require no sleep as we know it. They evolved from what we think of as seaweed........Einstein?

[pgardn]

Isn't it....God does not play dice with the Universe? But I've never delved into that so..? I would suppose it's something about being a non gambler.

My thing is how can we really think mere man has the answers to to the vastness of something we can't even fathom the size of? There could be places out there so far off what we know it's ridiculous. Their day is a month by our standards, the beings? drink but don't eat and they never age.....and on and on...

This idea that we have found the answers to how things are out there is silly. I am talking about other galaxies.

Barsoom in the Tureaud galaxy is ruled by a warrior tribe called the Venuatians. They move about on gliders and require no sleep as we know it. They evolved from what we think of as seaweed........Einstein?

First of all we know A decent amount about other galaxies. They are observable. Do you mean other universes?

Einstein did not like the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics so he was in a way dissatisfied that the stuff actually worked in predicting behavior of nature on the level of the tiny. Which seems not to interest you. you like "way out there", "vastness"... what about the other way round? How about reducing things to the tiniest? Why no interest? Where is the creativity? Why don't you bother to think about this level?

We don't have all the answers and never will IMO.

But that does not mean we just make shit up while inebriated.
Or pontificate upon topics that we have not even bothered to read what others, who have spent their lifetime thinking about, have had to say about it. I guess I should just go into a session with the greatest guitarists gathered and tell them how they have got it all wrong having never even picked up an instrument. You feel comfy with this.

[Avante]

Einstein did not like the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics so he was in a way dissatisfied that the stuff actually worked in predicting behavior of nature on the level of the tiny. Which seems not to interest you. you like "way out there", "vastness"... what about the other way round? How about reducing things to the tiniest? Why no interest? Where is the creativity? Why don't you bother to think about this level?

We don't have all the answers and never will IMO.

But that does not mean we just make shit up while inebriated.
Or pontificate upon topics that we have not even bothered to read what others, who have spent their lifetime thinking about, have had to say about it. I guess I should just go into a session with the greatest guitarists gathered and tell them how they have got it all wrong having never even picked up an instrument. You feel comfy with this.

Now that's interesting....the tiniest....hmmm? That has never crossed my mind, but now that it has, what do I do with it?

I do play the harmonica and can manage some slide guitar:hat

[pgardn]

...enjoying the perceived thinking "outside the box" in which the interest of the limitations of said box completely escape some. I mean if one has no idea how big the box is how do think outside of it?

I bet some on this board take their big step without giving the box a second thought.

[Avante]

Not sure we are talking about the same box. You are going off into things that have little to do with the topic.

[pgardn]

Now that's interesting....the tiniest....hmmm? That has never crossed my mind, but now that it has, what do I do with iT?

Maybe try reading about it as others have spent their lifetime thinking about something that has not crossed your mind?

Nahhh, just make something up... Just walk into the middle of the movie.

[pgardn]

Not sure we are talking about the same box. You are going off into things that have little to do with the topic.

Understanding the box is understanding what/ how we can sense the world around us, how we filter and process that information, and how we react and use what we have already altered.
How we think.
You imagine that might be important?
Trying to understand ourselves?
Before we just start making shit up.

[Avante]

Maybe try reading about it as others have spent their lifetime thinking about something that has not crossed your mind?

Nahhh, just make something up... Just walk into the middle of the movie.

Why are you so aggressive about things, relax, ok?

Since you can't be cool, I'll wrap this up with you. I was looking for some real talk not internet silliness because you can.

See ya!

[pgardn]

Why are you so aggressive about things, relax, ok?

Since you can't be cool, I'll wrap this up with you. I was looking for some real talk not internet silliness because you can.

See ya!

Have you ever thought that what you perceive about the mood of someone typing on basketball message board might be completely wrong?

Sorry. I must apologize. You are not interested.
I was under the impression that you liked to read about and learn everything you could.


But that was only track.

[Avante]

Ok, moving on.

When "they" were here long ago, as some think, imagine just how far superior they must be today than back then. Did they find us so inferior they lost interest? Those UFO's we see today are others who are just now figuring us out.

[RandomGuy]

We live in a physical world with its four known space-time dimensions of length, width, height (or depth) and time. The God of the Bible, however, dwells in a different dimension—the spirit realm—beyond the natural perception of our physical senses. It’s not that God isn’t real; it’s a matter of Him not being limited by the physical laws and dimensions that govern our world

Soooo how do you know all this? Seems like a pretty big claim.

BTW, there are more than four dimensions.

Where is the spirit realm? Can we go there?

If we can't, why not?

How do we differentiate your bullshit claim about a "spirit realm" from all the other bullshit claims?

[TDMVPDPOY]

they say the universe is like a sphere, like how the early historians thought the earth was flat

now why dont they shoot a light left and see if it comes back to the other side?

[Avante]

Soooo how do you know all this? Seems like a pretty big claim.

BTW, there are more than four dimensions.

Where is the spirit realm? Can we go there?

If we can't, why not?

How do we differentiate your bullshit claim about a "spirit realm" from all the other bullshit claims?

That was a quote showing another way to go with this. In a room of 50 people we will have 40 different opinions. Sure a few agreeing.

[RandomGuy]

How do we differentiate your bullshit claim about a "spirit realm" from all the other bullshit claims?


That was a quote showing another way to go with this. In a room of 50 people we will have 40 different opinions. Sure a few agreeing.

That is generally why I treat such claims as bullshit. Everybody always claims to have THE right opinion about their unfalsifiable, unscientific claims.

Science is the only way we really have to sort through what is true or not in any meaningful way.

[RandomGuy]

they say the universe is like a sphere, like how the early historians thought the earth was flat

now why dont they shoot a light left and see if it comes back to the other side?

yq4uCWtQE24

[Avante]

How do we differentiate your bullshit claim about a "spirit realm" from all the other bullshit claims?



That is generally why I treat such claims as bullshit. Everybody always claims to have THE right opinion about their unfalsifiable, unscientific claims.

Science is the only way we really have to sort through what is true or not in any meaningful way.

Don't do that, you know as well as we all do how many times science has been wrong. We don't know what's really out there so we guess and speculate. And it's fun, do you ever have any fun, you come off as a robot. You ever smile?

[Avante]

We are like a pebble on a beach thinking we have the answers to all those other pebbles, ha~~~ We can only use the info we have available to us right now. And as we have learned over the years we never have it all. There are things we will learn in the future as we always have. Who thinks things will be the same 100 from now when it comes to anything?

The size of the Universe alone tells us just how puny we are. But we know it all, no we don't and never will. So for anyone to play, well Einstein said, hell the guy couldn't even figure out his family life.

We have no idea what's really going on out there when it comes to time, distance, alien beings etc and it should be obvious. All we know is what our limitations are, and how many times have those changed?

[Blake]

Don't do that, you know as well as we all do how many times science has been wrong.

Therefore, your opinion is as good as scientific research.

You're so stupid.

[Avante]

To those out there.

I apologize for Blake, I simply can't deal with his stupidity and need to be a pest any longer, so I have decided to ignore him. So expect to see him tagging along behind me everywhere I go now. Sorry gang.

[RandomGuy]

Don't do that, you know as well as we all do how many times science has been wrong. We don't know what's really out there so we guess and speculate. And it's fun, do you ever have any fun, you come off as a robot. You ever smile?

Science has been wrong about things yes.

The part that makes it useful is the self-correcting mechanism.

That has made it a lot more right about shit than religion ever has been. The earth goes around the sun these days, not vice versa, and it took science clobbering religion over the head to get religion to piss off into a deserved corner with a dunce cap, so that it would STFU about trying to describe the universe.

[Avante]

Science has been wrong about things yes.

The part that makes it useful is the self-correcting mechanism.

That has made it a lot more right about shit than religion ever has been. The earth goes around the sun these days, not vice versa, and it took science clobbering religion over the head to get religion to piss off into a deserved corner with a dunce cap, so that it would STFU about trying to describe the universe.

Religion is just another option, it's no more certain of anything than science is. I'm not religious I assumed you knew that. I just point out how others do see things differently..

[RandomGuy]

Religion is just another option, it's no more certain of anything than science is.

Not to hear people like RD and Phenomanul talk. They KNOW for 100% certain all sorts of things, or claim they do.

Science is far superior in getting shit right than religion. Unless you still think the sun goes around a flat earth?

:lol

[pgardn]

they say the universe is like a sphere, like how the early historians thought the earth was flat

now why dont they shoot a light left and see if it comes back to the other side?

No "they" don't. Not the science theys...

Yes. Go suggest your experiment. Off to the left.

[Avante]

Not to hear people like RD and Phenomanul talk. They KNOW for 100% certain all sorts of things, or claim they do.

Science is far superior in getting shit right than religion. Unless you still think the sun goes around a flat earth?

:lol

I know a few people who would take you to school drop you off then pick you up and bring you home in a debate about religion vs science....trust me. Just think you vs me talking 1928 Alabama blues.

Science doesn't have all the answers if they did then they could stop being scientists, right?

[RandomGuy]

I know a few people who would take you to school drop you off then pick you up and bring you home in a debate about religion vs science....trust me. Just think you vs me talking 1928 Alabama blues.

Science doesn't have all the answers if they did then they could stop being scientists, right?

Dude, I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and shit a better argument than that.

I already took you to town on the blues. All you did was regurgitate stuff. The instant you were asked to think about even something you know well... you failed. Kinda makes your "your so dumb" statements ring more than a bit hollow.

[RandomGuy]

“If you are scientifically literate the world looks very different to you. Its not just a lot of mysterious things happening. There is a lot we understand out there. And that understanding empowers you to, first, not be taken advantage of by others who do understand it. And second there are issues that confront society that have science as their foundation. If you are scientifically illiterate, in a way, you are disenfranchising yourself from the democratic process, and you don’t even know it.”

[pgardn]

I know a few people who would take you to school drop you off then pick you up and bring you home in a debate about religion vs science....trust me. Just think you vs me talking 1928 Alabama blues.

Science doesn't have all the answers if they did then they could stop being scientists, right?

So invite them to your slaughter.
Have em join. If you have been getting your thoughts from them, things are going to get ugly.

[pgardn]

Now that's interesting....the tiniest....hmmm? That has never crossed my mind, but now that it has, what do I do with it?

play

[Avante]

Dude, I could eat a bowl of alphabet soup and shit a better argument than that.

I already took you to town on the blues. All you did was regurgitate stuff. The instant you were asked to think about even something you know well... you failed. Kinda makes your "your so dumb" statements ring more than a bit hollow.

Actually you were wrong the second you said Lightnin' Hopkins was more revered in the blues world than John Lee Hooker, after that you became a waste of my time. No he isn't.

I don't think you understand what I'm telling you here. You would stand no chance of any kind against my MIL. She would make you look even more ridiculous than you already do, trust me.

[Avante]

So invite them to your slaughter.
Have em join. If you have been getting your thoughts from them, things are going to get ugly.

You really do need to work on those reading comphension skills. I said I'm not into religion. But, I do see where they are coming from and those who really understand all that would toy with you, as I would talking football, music, track, literature, etc etc etc etc.

[pgardn]

You really do need to work on those reading comphension skills. I said I'm not into religion. But, I do see where they are coming from and those who really understand all that would toy with you, as I would talking football, music, track, literature, etc etc etc etc.

And so you are into science?


Since you know them so well invite them to discuss the two with the board.
I promise you they won't toy with anything with the exception of fooling you about their prowess since you have decided to make this a contest. The way you discuss football, etc... all you have done is to show me that you lie. And that you completely don't understand betting. "I'll take Carolina 110". "No I never made that bet, ask the guys"

[Avante]

And so you are into science?


Since you know them so well invite them to discuss the two with the board.
I promise you they won't toy with anything with the exception of fooling you about their prowess since you have decided to make this a contest. The way you discuss football, etc... all you have done is to show me that you lie. And that you completely don't understand betting. "I'll take Carolina 110". "No I never made that bet, ask the guys"

Follow me over to my thread on the football board if you want to talk football and betting, all I will say here is I have been winning ATS for over 20 years, as you saw I had another winning season in 2015.


Moving on....

No contest just tired of you thinking everything can be explained right now today when it comes to the mysteries of the universe. When even you must know that a 1000 years from now if we looked back on 2016, we knew nothing. Just like it would be looking back 1000 years ago. You are a fool if you think we have it all figured out right now.

[clambake]

Follow me over

yikes

[DMC]

It's only a matter of time before anything possible becomes a reality. That doesn't mean we need to pretend it's tomorrow. There's life here we don't know about. Finding life elsewhere is way down the actual scientific "to do" list where space travel is concerned.

[Findog]

Fermi Paradox imo. Where is everybody?

My guess is that intelligent life exists or has existed elsewhere than here, but even with trillions of Earth-like planets, it still doesn't happen very often. We might be the only intelligent life in the Milky Way. There might be another Type 1 or Type 2 Civilization but they're in a very distant galaxy and they died out upon hitting the Great Filter.

[TDMVPDPOY]

My guess is that intelligent life exists or has existed elsewhere than here, but even with trillions of Earth-like planets, it still doesn't happen very often. We might be the only intelligent life in the Milky Way. There might be another Type 1 or Type 2 Civilization but they're in a very distant galaxy and they died out upon hitting the Great Filter.

now this is what i dont get, astronomers keep on talkin about this 3 belt lines that the further your out there is no life or cant sustain life, but if the universe is still expanding from the big bang outwards, then wouldnt that mean whatever milkyway/planets keep on moving outwards should be cease to exist life?

[pgardn]

Amazing.

Relying on economists (the great filter) and physicists (Fermi making theories before we even knew about DNA or the history of life on Earth) If this discussion does not get run past evolutionary biologists we are missing some really important ideas.

[z0sa]

My guess is that intelligent life exists or has existed elsewhere than here, but even with trillions of Earth-like planets, it still doesn't happen very often. We might be the only intelligent life in the Milky Way. There might be another Type 1 or Type 2 Civilization but they're in a very distant galaxy and they died out upon hitting the Great Filter.

But what if life even spontaneously emerging is the Great Filter? Or, eukaryotic cells developing?

[RandomGuy]

Actually you were wrong the second you said Lightnin' Hopkins was more revered in the blues world than John Lee Hooker, after that you became a waste of my time. No he isn't.



No, actually I didn't say that. You're welcome to beat up that strawman all you want, though. It's what you are good at.

http://www.pixteller.com/pdata/t/l-59673.jpg


Lightning Hopkins was a superior artist overall to John Lee Hooker.

True or not?

[justify your answer, citing examples and why you think it is]

I merely asked a question in a subject you [say you] know a lot about, and requested you to justify your answer with something approaching critical thinking.

Which you failed to do.


That's shocking

[pgardn]

No, actually I didn't say that. You're welcome to beat up that strawman all you want, though. It's what you are good at.

http://www.pixteller.com/pdata/t/l-59673.jpg



I merely asked a question in a subject you [say you] know a lot about, and requested you to justify your answer with something approaching critical thinking.

Which you failed to do.

And the diversions of our beloved Avante continue. Problem is I sometimes think he is actually willing to try and understand what is being presented. Disagreement with merit is very informing. But then... No. It's just all a ruse to find a way to present a list.