Best "two way" player

[Keepin' it real]

Why does the media keep calling Kawhi the best "two way player" in the NBA? I don't recall other superstars being described this way. It's disrespectful.

Basketball is about offense AND defense. If Kawhi is the best when considering both, just call him the best player in the NBA. Or else call Curry the best "one way" player in the NBA.

[TXstbobcat]

If I had to pick 1 player to build an NBA ream around, it would be Leonard.

[RD2191]

OP is just keeping it real tbh. And you make a very good point.

[apalisoc_9]

Op making a case for best poster under 1500 post, imo

[PopTheGOAT]

Why does the media keep calling Kawhi the best "two way player" in the NBA? I don't recall other superstars being described this way. It's disrespectful.

Basketball is about offense AND defense. If Kawhi is the best when considering both, just call him the best player in the NBA. Or else call Curry the best "one way" player in the NBA.
This needs to be a thing

[dabom]

OP is correct but 2 way player is in no way offensive. It is supposed to mean versatility as a player.

[steeledl]

Meaning he is great or very good on both ends of the court. Maybe top 2 on defense and maybe top 10 on offense. While Curry is #1 on offense and probably not in the top 50 on defense but his offense and game changing ability still make him the best overall player while not being great on both ends. Nothing to be offended by.

[spursparker9]

has Lebron ever called the best 2 way player?

[steeledl]

has Lebron ever called the best 2 way player?

He has been called the best player.

[skulls138]

You can look at it as disrespectful or respectful. Yes they are seemingly saying that he needs all of his intangibles and not just his one on one ability to make a great player...which somehow is lesser...glad to be a Spurs fan, but in reality thats a compliment...so fuck em

[midnightpulp]

OP is right in that the media is speaking out of both sides of its mouth. If you're the best two way player in the league, you're usually the best player in the league. Media just doesn't want to commit here.

That said, Kawhi is neck and neck with Wardell right now. It's a lot closer between them than people think, as I've been saying for the past month.

[100%duncan]

For sure but I dont mind it. Since, it means he's one of the most unique in our league. MVP candidate as well. I enjoy it tbh

[AZK619]

OP with the truth nukes. Media loves to use cute words, Kawhi is one of the best players in the NBA, period, tbh.

[KenziE]

For sure but I dont mind it. Since, it means he's one of the most unique in our league. MVP candidate as well. I enjoy it tbh

not as much as i enjoy ur sig bro J Mendiola freshness


how did u escape the bombscare last week ? All good ?

[100%duncan]

not as much as i enjoy ur sig bro J Mendiola freshness


how did u escape the bombscare last week ? All good ?

I was at my apartment tbh but I could see people evacuating to the field :lol

[KenziE]

I was at my apartment tbh but I could see people evacuating to the field :lol

nice hahaha

ill be in UP this aftrnun riding my bike i hope they dont burn another building hehe

[100%duncan]

nice hahaha

ill be in UP this aftrnun riding my bike i hope they dont burn another building hehe

yeah man what's with fucking up with campuses

[apalisoc_9]

yeah man what's with fucking up with campuses

Jessy is a fine babe, but my favourite filipino beauty of all time is the muzzies wife. I forgot her name. I had a huge crush on her brownish skin and beautiful smile. I was 13-14..my mum would watch wowoowee and I and Id shrink...

Right now that half girl, i dont know her name..but shes got brownish skin and black hair and weird accent.

Real beauties.

[Arcadian]

I see your point, but it's really quite simple why they do it: they don't want to say he's better than Curry, but they know he's a better defensive player, so they give him this title. In other words, they think Curry's offensive advantage outweighs Leonard's defensive advantage.

Does it? We'll see in the playoffs.

[KDKSpurs24]

Well t's basically saying that he's a 'jack of all trades'. Good at everything. Great in a few categories.

I really want Kawhi to be the best player in the NBA and he's close. But if you look at Curry on the offensive end, he commands so much attention because of his range and what he can do. What that does for his team is incomparable. He creates so much open space and room for everyone to operate and it wrecks a defense. He literally makes everyone on the court better. Not many can really compare in that regard. For example, when you look at LeBron on offense he makes others better but at the same time he also turns his guys into ball watchers which hurts the team. And also I don't care what people say but I think Curry is a good defender as well. So yeah for now he's definitely the best player.

But look out because I can't even see Kawhi's ceiling. He's amazing already at 24. At 26-27 I'm almost certain he'll be capable of being the best player!

[Obstructed_View]

Scottie Pippen and Gary Payton were called two-way players. Not sure how people looking for a way to call him the best in the NBA constitutes disrespect, tbh.

Some of you guys are in danger of turning into little playerfans just like the Kobe wonks.

[Obstructed_View]

I see your point, but it's really quite simple why they do it: they don't want to say he's better than Curry, but they know he's a better defensive player, so they give him this title. In other words, they think Curry's offensive advantage outweighs Leonard's defensive advantage.

Does it? We'll see in the playoffs.

There are also guys like Durant and Harden that are offensive juggernauts, and it's hard to make a case that Leonard's better than they are to casual NBA fans unless you point out how important defense is.

[100%duncan]

Jessy is a fine babe, but my favourite filipino beauty of all time is the muzzies wife. I forgot her name. I had a huge crush on her brownish skin and beautiful smile. I was 13-14..my mum would watch wowoowee and I and Id shrink...

Right now that half girl, i dont know her name..but shes got brownish skin and black hair and weird accent.

Real beauties.

you mean mariel rodriguez? cuz of the weird accent :lol

[100%duncan]

Well t's basically saying that he's a 'jack of all trades'. Good at everything. Great in a few categories.

I really want Kawhi to be the best player in the NBA and he's close. But if you look at Curry on the offensive end, he commands so much attention because of his range and what he can do. What that does for his team is incomparable. He creates so much open space and room for everyone to operate and it wrecks a defense. He literally makes everyone on the court better. Not many can really compare in that regard. For example, when you look at LeBron on offense he makes others better but at the same time he also turns his guys into ball watchers which hurts the team. And also I don't care what people say but I think Curry is a good defender as well. So yeah for now he's definitely the best player.

But look out because I can't even see Kawhi's ceiling. He's amazing already at 24. At 26-27 I'm almost certain he'll be capable of being the best player!

Kawhi is not great in a few categories. He's the best player on one of the 2 dimensions of basketball.

[apalisoc_9]

Mariel!..yup thats her name

The other girl os some teen star..dont know her name. Shes got a weird filipino accent. Apperrently shes half. Forgot her name.

[100%duncan]

Mariel!..yup thats her name

The other girl os some teen star..dont know her name. Shes got a weird filipino accent. Apperrently shes half. Forgot her name.

I dont dig mariel tbh

[KDKSpurs24]

Kawhi is not great in a few categories. He's the best player on one of the 2 dimensions of basketball.
Um.. That's already established. I'm talking offense of course. Best player on defense plus combined with top 10 or so offensive talent makes him the best "two way" "all-around". That's why I then talked about Curry's immeasurable offensive ability which put him over the top.

I'm just simply saying why they use the title "best two way/all around player in the league" but don't have him #1.

[will_spurs]

Scottie Pippen and Gary Payton were called two-way players. Not sure how people looking for a way to call him the best in the NBA constitutes disrespect, tbh.

Some of you guys are in danger of turning into little playerfans just like the Kobe wonks.

This.

[SouthernFried]

OP makes perfect sense to me.

Curry is the best offensive player in the league. But, he's a one trick pony...like Iverson was. Just with a better team around him.

The talking heads are like most NBA fans. They give a nod to D. They'll even say "D wins championships." Then they turn around and focus 90% of their attention on O.

It is what it is...lol

[UZER]

Because chicks did the long ball.

Edit: Now that I think about it, would that commercial be allowed today?

[SPURt]

Kawhi's D is equal to prime Lebron and his shooting is better than Lebron has ever been. It's going to be about consistency over time. The media is pushing the Curry narrative, but Kawhi leads Curry in a lot of key stats including 3 pt percentage. For my money, the Warriors record isn't so much better than the Spurs that Kawhi shouldn't be MVP.

With that said, I don't want the media reporting on Kawhi and spotlighting him constantly. There's a lot of rumblings that Kerr is struggling to manage the young sensitive egos in their locker room. Whenever Curry queefs the media reports that Curry dousched with a strawberry scented vinager solution because Draymond left his uterus full. I don't want that for Kawhi.

Edit: I intended to say Kawhi leads Steph in a lot of key "defensive" stats. More appropriately I should say "all key defensive stats"

[T_L_P]

OP makes perfect sense to me.

Curry is the best offensive player in the league. But, he's a one trick pony...like Iverson was. Just with a better team around him.

The talking heads are like most NBA fans. They give a nod to D. They'll even say "D wins championships." Then they turn around and focus 90% of their attention on O.

It is what it is...lol

What's his one trick? Leading the league in scoring on historic efficiency while receiving more defensive attention that any other player on the planet?

[r0drig0lac]

Scottie Pippen and Gary Payton were called two-way players. Not sure how people looking for a way to call him the best in the NBA constitutes disrespect, tbh.

Some of you guys are in danger of turning into little playerfans just like the Kobe wonks.

[Keepin' it real]

In his prime, was Tim Duncan called the best two way player (or one of the best)? Is he called the best two way power forward of all time? I think not. I don't recall those words used even once to describe Tim.

And to be clear, I'm not "defending" Kawhi from a player fan perspective as some have alleged. I'm a fan of the Spurs team and all Spurs players. What I'm saying is I don't care for the term "two way" player. When you compliment someone by calling him the best "two way" player, you're actually trivializing the compliment.

If someone is the best player when you consider offense and defense, just go ahead and delete the words "two way" ... because that person IS the best player.

[Raven]

op is right, it pissed me off many times too.

[Raven]

Kawhi's D is equal to prime Lebron and his shooting is better than Lebron has ever been. It's going to be about consistency over time. The media is pushing the Curry narrative, but Kawhi leads Curry in a lot of key stats including 3 pt percentage. For my money, the Warriors record isn't so much better than the Spurs that Kawhi shouldn't be MVP.

With that said, I don't want the media reporting on Kawhi and spotlighting him constantly. There's a lot of rumblings that Kerr is struggling to manage the young sensitive egos in their locker room. Whenever Curry queefs the media reports that Curry dousched with a strawberry scented vinager solution because Draymond left his uterus full. I don't want that for Kawhi.
prime lebron wasn't half the defender leonard is.

[spursistan]

Again that antiquated PPG thingy will keep undercutting Kawhi even by advancted stats types..kawhi will need to be up 23-25 ppg, which means 34 MPG-36 mpg playing for Pop (good luck with that!!), while sprinkling his season with few 40-point games-- just for him to win MVP in the future despite destroying his competitors in advancted metrics...

[resistanze]

Kawhi's D is equal to prime Lebron and his shooting is better than Lebron has ever been. It's going to be about consistency over time. The media is pushing the Curry narrative, but Kawhi leads Curry in a lot of key stats including 3 pt percentage. For my money, the Warriors record isn't so much better than the Spurs that Kawhi shouldn't be MVP.

With that said, I don't want the media reporting on Kawhi and spotlighting him constantly. There's a lot of rumblings that Kerr is struggling to manage the young sensitive egos in their locker room. Whenever Curry queefs the media reports that Curry dousched with a strawberry scented vinager solution because Draymond left his uterus full. I don't want that for Kawhi.

Kawhi is actually a better and more consistent defender than LeBron ever was, but the shooting argument is silly. LeBron shot 56.5% in a season, and was just an overall superior offensive player and playmaker regardless.

And Kawhi leads Curry in 3P% by .001...and Curry has taken 3X as many 3 pointers. Why is that a key stat?

[SPURt]

Kawhi is actually a better and more consistent defender than LeBron ever was, but the shooting argument is silly. LeBron shot 56.5% in a season, and was just an overall superior offensive player and playmaker regardless.

And Kawhi leads Curry in 3P% by .001...and Curry has taken 3X as many 3 pointers. Why is that a key stat?
Lebron shot great from the field, but not from 3. It's been the one part of Lebron's offensive game that hurt his team. The comment Curry was Kawhi has a huge statistical advantage defensively but in the one category Curry is hailed as the greatest ever he trails Kawhi. I'll take the advantage Kawhi brings defensively over what Curry brings offensively. Especially considering the Spurs offense doesn't require Kawhi carry/bail out teammates.

[cjw]

Given it's baseball opening day - and I know nobody in here watches it until October (including myself), but Curry is basically giving you 2004 Barry Bonds level offense but relegated to playing subpar defense in left field (we know Bonds himself was a good defensive player).

Kawhi is putting together offensive stats that would otherwise be MVP level if Curry weren't around but playing like Pudge Rodriguez or Ozzie Smith defensively at a key position.

[SpursFan86]

Meh, I'm fine with the distinction. Curry is the best player IMO, but he doesn't contribute to both sides like Kawhi does. He's just so insane offensively (having arguably the greatest offensive season ever) that his overall impact still ends up edging out Kawhi's despite not doing a whole lot defensively.

When looking at guys who consistently impact both sides of the ball though, Kawhi is probably the best. I'm still not quite ready to write off LeBron just yet...even with his jumper being broken he has still been fantastic this year, and the numbers point to him getting back to playing great defense (he fell off on that end in 2014/2015).

[DMC]

It has to do with the impact they have on their respective teams and the NBA in general. You could put all the two way players on one team, that's how few there are of them. However guys who are basically unstoppable on offense often create more havok than guys who are stawlarts on defense. That's because one guy can kill you on offense, but it takes a team to stop you on defense. No matter how good Kawhi is, if the rest of the team can't play defense, we won't win. On the flipside, no matter how shitty his teammates are, Steph Curry is likely going to cause serious issues for the other team with his ability to score off the high pick or just beyond half court, James Harden is going to cause problems with penetration, FT shooting and his 3pt shot. Westbrook is going to run all over you, and KD is going to shoot you out of the gym. None of those I mentioned are particularly a problem on defense.

You shouldn't be mad when someone calls your 16th overall pick that you traded George Hill for the "best two way player in the game". That's a huge compliment.

[Obstructed_View]

In his prime, was Tim Duncan called the best two way player (or one of the best)? Is he called the best two way power forward of all time? I think not. I don't recall those words used even once to describe Tim.

And to be clear, I'm not "defending" Kawhi from a player fan perspective as some have alleged. I'm a fan of the Spurs team and all Spurs players. What I'm saying is I don't care for the term "two way" player. When you compliment someone by calling him the best "two way" player, you're actually trivializing the compliment.

If someone is the best player when you consider offense and defense, just go ahead and delete the words "two way" ... because that person IS the best player.

There's no law preventing any of you from going ahead and saying that Leonard is the best player in the league. If you guys think he's better than Curry and Lebron, then go right ahead and announce it to the world. In a couple of years when he's the best player in the league you can tell everyone how smart you were.

When he hasn't been the best player in the league, Duncan has been called the best power forward, which is a qualification. In his prime, Duncan was actually the best player in the league and he didn't need a throng of teenage girls on a message board to defend his honor by dissecting every compliment in print about him to find the hidden insult.

The fact is, Leonard is not the best player in the league right now yet he has a few prominent people, like Barkley, saying that he is. He's getting a lot of credit for being a key part of a Spurs defense that's full of guys playing great defense. If he's really that good, and if you really believe that he's going to get better, then all you have to do is wait around for it to happen.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I see your point, but it's really quite simple why they do it: they don't want to say he's better than Curry, but they know he's a better defensive player, so they give him this title. In other words, they think Curry's offensive advantage outweighs Leonard's defensive advantage.


This.

Also, O > D when it comes to player value. Tony Allen is great defensively and terrible offensively, while Lillard is the opposite, but O > D when it comes to impact.

[Dro210]

Kawhi's BEEN the best player. Calling it like it is, is just calling it like it is.

[Obstructed_View]

This.

Also, O > D when it comes to player value. Tony Allen is great defensively and terrible offensively, while Lillard is the opposite, but O > D when it comes to impact.

Maybe they know he's not better than Curry, but he's so impressive and impactful that they are going out of their way to make a case for him.

By the way, offense will always have more impact, as the game is not called preventtheotherguyfrommakingabasketball.

[NameLess Scrub]

Maybe they know he's not better than Curry, but he's so impressive and impactful that they are going out of their way to make a case for him.

By the way, offense will always have more impact, as the game is not called preventtheotherguyfrommakingabasketball.

Might be Defenseball, as short version.

I agree. They call him best 2 way player in order to put him in the top somehow.

Curry is ruining the game by treating a shot that is difficult to get and make into a regular shot. He scores 30 pts a game and makes it look like 4 vs 5 some times. He's giving Draymond a chance to show his upbringing issues. It's hard to top that.

[daslicer]

There's no law preventing any of you from going ahead and saying that Leonard is the best player in the league. If you guys think he's better than Curry and Lebron, then go right ahead and announce it to the world. In a couple of years when he's the best player in the league you can tell everyone how smart you were.

When he hasn't been the best player in the league, Duncan has been called the best power forward, which is a qualification. In his prime, Duncan was actually the best player in the league and he didn't need a throng of teenage girls on a message board to defend his honor by dissecting every compliment in print about him to find the hidden insult.

The fact is, Leonard is not the best player in the league right now yet he has a few prominent people, like Barkley, saying that he is. He's getting a lot of credit for being a key part of a Spurs defense that's full of guys playing great defense. If he's really that good, and if you really believe that he's going to get better, then all you have to do is wait around for it to happen.

I agree with your post just like to add to it which is prime Duncan was a big time playoff performer. He had games where he would get 30-20,40-10, and ridiculous triple doubles. If people want Kawhi to get respect and be anointed the best player in the league then he's going to have to have dominant playoff games.

[Obstructed_View]

Curry is ruining the game by treating a shot that is difficult to get and make into a regular shot. He scores 30 pts a game and makes it look like 4 vs 5 some times. He's giving Draymond a chance to show his upbringing issues. It's hard to top that.

Yeah, that's kind of the definition of what the best player in the league does. He's also an above average passer and a pretty damn good defender.

[will_spurs]

In his prime, was Tim Duncan called the best two way player (or one of the best)? Is he called the best two way power forward of all time? I think not. I don't recall those words used even once to describe Tim.

No because Duncan was much more of a force offensively than Leonard right now, and in the 5th season at age 25 (same as Leonard) Duncan was actually voted MVP.


If someone is the best player when you consider offense and defense, just go ahead and delete the words "two way" ... because that person IS the best player.

No, it means he's the best on average. Right now that means Kawhi is the best defender, and tier 2 offensively (tier 1 = Curry, Lebron and so on), and to show that he's more than "just" the best defender in the league, people say he's the best 2-way player.

[SPURt]

No because Duncan was much more of a force offensively than Leonard right now, and in the 5th season at age 25 (same as Leonard) Duncan was actually voted MVP.



No, it means he's the best on average. Right now that means Kawhi is the best defender, and tier 2 offensively (tier 1 = Curry, Lebron and so on), and to show that he's more than "just" the best defender in the league, people say he's the best 2-way player.

You think Kawhi is a tier below scoring wise than Lebron and Curry?

Kawhi doesn't need to contribute the same amount offensively as those two nor does Pop play a system that relies on one scorer.

Beyond that, Kawhi is a more complete scorer than Curry or Lebron. Curry is taking and making an insane amount of threes and can finish at the rim, but Curry isn't going to post anyone up. Kawhi can also finish at the rim and hit threes at a slightly better percentage than Curry. Lebron is a great post player and finisher but his three ball has abandoned him.

Curry's biggest advantage are the teammates that can all hit shots. Even Speights is hitting threes (though not so much lately). When Curry breaks a double team he has Klay, Barnes, Draymond, and a rolling Bogut. Danny Green, Patty Mills, Parker, basically anyone not named Aldridge has been wildly inconsistent this year shooting wise.

To say Kawhi is a tier below Lebron and Curry is overstating it.

[Brazil]

OP has a point tbh

[will_spurs]

Beyond that, Kawhi is a more complete scorer than Curry or Lebron.

:lmao

[Brazil]

No because Duncan was much more of a force offensively than Leonard right now, and in the 5th season at age 25 (same as Leonard) Duncan was actually voted MVP.



No, it means he's the best on average. Right now that means Kawhi is the best defender, and tier 2 offensively (tier 1 = Curry, Lebron and so on), and to show that he's more than "just" the best defender in the league, people say he's the best 2-way player.

I kinda disagree... if he is the best 2-way player he is the best player period... he is or he is not. I don't like this 2 way player it's like saying he is good at everything but elite at nothing which is dumb.

[SPURt]

:lmao
you're one of those, got it

[will_spurs]

you're one of those, got it

Well that's what you get for saying shit.

[daslicer]

I kinda disagree... if he is the best 2-way player he is the best player period... he is or he is not. I don't like this 2 way player it's like saying he is good at everything but elite at nothing which is dumb.

I would say he's definitely an elite defender but is he an elite scorer that's tough but I will say no. He's a pretty good scorer now and is efficient but he's not in the same realm as Durant, prime Lebron, prime Wade. Kawhi has the best combo of offense and defense of any player in the league and that's why he's referred constantly as a great two way player. I would rate Kawhi's defense 10, and his scoring an 8. You'll have guys like Durant and Curry who are 10 on offense, but are like a 6 on defense. I feel Durant when he wants to be can be an 8 on defense while Curry can't go beyond being a 6 on defense. Lebron this year has been a 9 on offense and a 7 on defense. IF you rank any other stars by this method you will see Kawhi come's out overall the best.

[SPURt]

Well that's what you get for saying shit.
You're doing great at the internet today, thumbs up!

[SPURt]

I would say he's definitely an elite defender but is he an elite scorer that's tough but I will say no. He's a pretty good scorer now and is efficient but he's not in the same realm as Durant, prime Lebron, prime Wade. Kawhi has the best combo of offense and defense of any player in the league and that's why he's referred constantly as a great two way player. I would rate Kawhi's defense 10, and his scoring an 8. You'll have guys like Durant and Curry who are 10 on offense, but are like a 6 on defense. I feel Durant when he wants to be can be an 8 on defense while Curry can't go beyond being a 6 on defense. Lebron this year has been a 9 on offense and a 7 on defense. IF you rank any other stars by this method you will see Kawhi come's out overall the best.
What part of Kawhi's game precludes him from being considered an elite scorer? People are coming on and saying Kawhi just isn't a great scorer without any real analysis.

[Brazil]

I would say he's definitely an elite defender but is he an elite scorer that's tough but I will say no. He's a pretty good scorer now and is efficient but he's not in the same realm as Durant, prime Lebron, prime Wade. Kawhi has the best combo of offense and defense of any player in the league and that's why he's referred constantly as a great two way player. I would rate Kawhi's defense 10, and his scoring an 8. You'll have guys like Durant and Curry who are 10 on offense, but are like a 6 on defense. I feel Durant when he wants to be can be an 8 on defense while Curry can't go beyond being a 6 on defense. Lebron this year has been a 9 on offense and a 7 on defense. IF you rank any other stars by this method you will see Kawhi come's out overall the best.

By your post then Kawhi is a 10+8 player Curry a 6+10 player so you are saying Kawhi > Curry ?

[will_spurs]

By your post then Kawhi is a 10+8 player Curry a 6+10 player so you are saying Kawhi > Curry ?

Basically, except O > D as has been explained in this thread, so Curry gets the nod. Also because giving Kawhi a 8 on offense is already quite generous.

[will_spurs]

You're doing great at the internet today, thumbs up!

Come on, you're making a ludicrous claim that Kawhi should be compared offensively to one guy who is having maybe the best offensive season of all time, and another guy who his a 4x NBA MVP with > 27ppg career average. You've got to back it up with something a bit more convincing than "a SF can post up while a PG can't" and "he can shoot the 3 better than another SF who's never been known for shooting the 3".

[SpursFan86]

Acting like Curry's offense and Kawhi's defense are a wash (or even close to it) is pretty ridiculous. The whole "Kawhi's defense is a 10 and Curry's offense is a 10" is a terrible argument. Curry has a good argument for having the best offensive season ever. I don't think anyone here would argue that Kawhi is having one of the best defensive seasons ever and is on the same level as prime Hakeem/Russell/Duncan/Ben Wallace/etc when it comes to defensive impact.

http://bkref.com/tiny/5BPH3

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/obpm_season.html (Curry right now is sitting at 12.4...so he's on pace to be #1 by a good margin)

Also, have others have said, Kawhi needs to prove he can dominate for an entire playoff run. I think he can do it, but he needs to show it. Last year he started off great and then fizzled out for the last few games of the series. In 2014 he had his moments but again, it's about proving he can do it night in and night out. LeBron has proven it time and time again, and Curry proved it last year.

It's not a slight to put a 25 year-old Kawhi a little behind Curry/LeBron. It's actually a hell of a compliment. I don't see why some people are acting like it's disrespectful to refer to Kawhi as the best 2-way player in the league.

[SPURt]

Come on, you're making a ludicrous claim that Kawhi should be compared offensively to one guy who is having maybe the best offensive season of all time, and another guy who his a 4x NBA MVP with > 27ppg career average. You've got to back it up with something a bit more convincing than "a SF can post up while a PG can't" and "he can shoot the 3 better than another SF who's never been known for shooting the 3".
This is a thoughtful response, thank you.

Look, I agree Curry has a bigger impact on offense. But saying Kawhi is a tier below Lebron (especially 2016 Lebron) and Curry isn't true to me. Kawhi doesn't have the green light to take the same type of shots or the same volume of shots as Curry. If Kawhi tried to pull up from 35+ feet Pop would automatically bench him regardless of whether or not it goes in.

On top of that, we saw what happens when the Spurs switch on Curry and make his life miserable from three. That's because Curry isn't going to be as effective without his best offensive asset by far, the three ball. You can take Kawhi's three away and he can still hurt teams in a variety of ways.

I don't care what Lebron was in the past, this year Kawhi has been a better offensive player. We've already seen what happens between Lebron and Kawhi head to head. Your statement Kawhi is a tier below Lebron I just don't agree with.

The player I think can score from 3, post ups, finish at the rim, and draw fouls is Kevin Durant. I think Durant is the most complete offensive player in the league right now. That's not to say that Curry's style of play hasn't changed the game but that comes back to his range. He takes what would be considered a bad shot for almost any other player.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I don't care what Lebron was in the past, this year Kawhi has been a better offensive player. We've already seen what happens between Lebron and Kawhi head to head. Your statement Kawhi is a tier below Lebron I just don't agree with.


How has Kawhi been a better offensive player? LeBron beats him by all traditional and advanced offensive stats.

Also, head to head this season he's been better than Kawhi - 25 PPG on 55% vs 22 PPG on 45% for Kawhi.

[SPURt]

How has Kawhi been a better offensive player? LeBron beats him by all traditional and advanced offensive stats.

Also, head to head this season he's been better than Kawhi - 25 PPG on 55% vs 22 PPG on 45% for Kawhi.
I am referring to total offensive game and Lebron has been horrible from three this year. I don't think the Cavs scare anyone on this board and a lot has to do with Lebron transitioning out of his prime.

[SpursFan86]

I don't care what Lebron was in the past, this year Kawhi has been a better offensive player. We've already seen what happens between Lebron and Kawhi head to head. Your statement Kawhi is a tier below Lebron I just don't agree with.

What happened? As far as I'm concerned they were pretty even in their matchups this year with LeBron having a bit of an edge.

Kawhi isn't on LeBron's level offensively. I think you could argue he's as good of a scorer as LeBron is now that LeBron's jumper seems to be MIA, but the gap in their playmaking abilities is too wide to put them on the same tier offensively. LeBron's ability to run an offense and create for others is what separates him from Kawhi.

[SpursFan86]

I don't think the Cavs scare anyone on this board and a lot has to do with Lebron transitioning out of his prime.

I think it has more to do with that team not being anything special outside of LeBron. Kyrie hasn't looked the same since coming back from injury. Love is a complete liability on defense and even his offense hasn't been anything special. JR Smith? Shumpert? Dellavedova? Tristan Thompson? Those guys don't look very good when you compare them to Manu, Duncan, Green, Diaw, Parker, etc.

I mean I agree that LeBron's lack of a jumper is an issue, but he's still a ridiculous player. It's crazy how much people take him for granted. Dude is putting up 25/7/7 on a 58 TS% and people act like he's completely fallen off or something.

Like I said in that last post, if you want to argue that Kawhi is on LeBron's level when it comes to scoring, I could buy that. But when you're looking at their total offensive impact, LeBron still has the clear edge because of his playmaking abilities.

[Brazil]

Basically, except O > D...

well it was true when bb in O was played around superstar with high usage... the duncan 4down in the 00s then as D has always been more a team effort, D was less valuable. Basically it was more difficult to find a high volume scorer (kobe, MJ style) than stabilizing a defense. Thinking of the past imo.... there is a reason why good defender being offensive liability don't exist anymore ala Bruce.

now winning bb on O is/was (?) more a team effort than before, almost as much as collective than defense... so the whole O > D is a bit antiguated as some krew members would say

[SPURt]

I think it has more to do with that team not being anything special outside of LeBron. Kyrie hasn't looked the same since coming back from injury. Love is a complete liability on defense and even his offense hasn't been anything special. JR Smith? Shumpert? Dellavedova? Tristan Thompson? Those guys don't look very good when you compare them to Manu, Duncan, Green, Diaw, Parker, etc.

I mean I agree that LeBron's lack of a jumper is an issue, but he's still a ridiculous player. It's crazy how much people take him for granted. Dude is putting up 25/7/7 on a 58 TS% and people act like he's completely fallen off or something.

Like I said in that last post, if you want to argue that Kawhi is on LeBron's level when it comes to scoring, I could buy that. But when you're looking at their total offensive impact, LeBron still has the clear edge because of his playmaking abilities.
I agree with you in that Lebron has a greater impact on offense but I think that is a byproduct of your first point being Lebron plays on a flawed team. Danny Green, Bobo, Patty, Manu, Slomo, and the whole gang have been frustratingly inconsistent but it'd be awful to watch Shump, JR, Frye, Delli, and his crew.

Kawhi has the luxury of playin with LMA and playing for Pop. You are right about the stats though. That's my bad, I too have taken his season for granted. I think it might be the constant negative press coming out of Cleveland.

Kawhi being able to defend the way he does puts him higher on the MVP list for me over Lebron.

[will_spurs]

IKawhi being able to defend the way he does puts him higher on the MVP list for me over Lebron.

Yes but that's a different story (and argument).

Kawhi is not (yet) recognized at the same level offensively as Curry, Lebron, Westbrook, Durant, Harden... I agree that Pop might never give him the green light (or rather might never even need to give him the green light) or even the minutes. It would not be the first Spurs player being held back for the good of the team. As long as it's the case, though, we're only talking about potential and that isn't going to cut it with the media and casual fans.

To put it another way, let's say you HAVE to score a basket and you can pick any player in the NBA, who are you picking? I don't think many people would say Kawhi, mostly because he's not particularly good at scoring off the dribble (although I feel he's improving).

I'd pick Curry or Harden, personally (Harden because he'd be going to the line no matter what).

[SPURt]

Yes but that's a different story (and argument).

Kawhi is not (yet) recognized at the same level offensively as Curry, Lebron, Westbrook, Durant, Harden... I agree that Pop might never give him the green light (or rather might never even need to give him the green light) or even the minutes. It would not be the first Spurs player being held back for the good of the team. As long as it's the case, though, we're only talking about potential and that isn't going to cut it with the media and casual fans.

To put it another way, let's say you HAVE to score a basket and you can pick any player in the NBA, who are you picking? I don't think many people would say Kawhi, mostly because he's not particularly good at scoring off the dribble (although I feel he's improving).

I'd pick Curry or Harden, personally (Harden because he'd be going to the line no matter what).
I wonder how prime Tim would be embraced by the media/NBA fandom at large in today's NBA? I hope Pop eventually gives Kawhi the legend treatment in three years after Kawhi hits his prime.

I agree with you on the last shot point. I think Harden is the best last shot taker, he is cold blooded. Luckily he is a turnover machine this year.

[daslicer]

By your post then Kawhi is a 10+8 player Curry a 6+10 player so you are saying Kawhi > Curry ?

I would say yes overall Kawhi is better than Curry but it's not a travesty that Curry is ranked above him. In the past the best player in the league usually has been a perfect 10 on offense and defense. Jordan,Shaq,Hakeem,Duncan,Lebron were all perfect 10's in both categories when they were at their peaks. I think if anything it shows both Curry and Kawhi are not overall dominant like the previous best players in the league.

[will_spurs]

I wonder how prime Tim would be embraced by the media/NBA fandom at large in today's NBA?

It's important to remember that Tim was better in his rookie year than Kawhi is now. That's how legendary Tim is.

And to put his MVP years in perspective, he was averaging over 25 & 12. Actually there's only one player this season (DeMarcus Cousins with 27 & 11.6) who is averaging more than Duncan's career numbers (let's not even mention peak). Duncan was a monster in an era with legit HoF bigs. Prime Duncan now would be killing everybody. I'm quite sure the media and fans would react exactly the same way they did before, maybe even more as there would be no competition.

[daslicer]

What part of Kawhi's game precludes him from being considered an elite scorer? People are coming on and saying Kawhi just isn't a great scorer without any real analysis.

When I watch Kawhi play his game reminds me of MJ from '95-'98 just less athletic and not as good of a ball handler. The first part there's not much Kawhi can do to fix that. He has above average athletic ability but not super athletic ability. Athleticism is very important for a perimeter player when it comes to being a dominant scorer. The greatest perimeter scorers tended to be super athletic freaks. Guys like Lebron,Durant,Wade,Kobe,Tmac,Westbrook all have that super athletic ability that gave them a quick first step along with being great finishers around the rim. I will say Kawhi has learned to make great acrobatic lay ups around the rim but he can't get up as high as those guys. Kawhi no matter how hard he works will never have the leaping ability or the great quickness those guys had that allows for infinite opportunities to score. When it comes to ball handling skills Kawhi has gotten a lot better but he still has room for improvement. There are times when he drives I have notice he gets stripped or loses the ball. I think that's the part where Kawhi will get better at knowing his work ethic. Kawhi's offensive game as it is right now I don't believe he could be a guy who could score 27-30 per a game consistently even if Pop let him go unhinged.

[SpursforSix]

When I watch Kawhi play his game reminds me of MJ from '95-'98 just less athletic and not as good of a ball handler. The first part there's not much Kawhi can do to fix that. He has above average athletic ability but not super athletic ability. Athleticism is very important for a perimeter player when it comes to being a dominant scorer. The greatest perimeter scorers tended to be super athletic freaks. Guys like Lebron,Durant,Wade,Kobe,Tmac,Westbrook all have that super athletic ability that gave them a quick first step along with being great finishers around the rim. I will say Kawhi has learned to make great acrobatic lay ups around the rim but he can't get up as high as those guys. Kawhi no matter how hard he works will never have the leaping ability or the great quickness those guys had that allows for infinite opportunities to score. When it comes to ball handling skills Kawhi has gotten a lot better but he still has room for improvement. There are times when he drives I have notice he gets stripped or loses the ball. I think that's the part where Kawhi will get better at knowing his work ethic. Kawhi's offensive game as it is right now I don't believe he could be a guy who could score 27-30 per a game consistently even if Pop let him go unhinged.

Kawhi and Durant have roughly the same vertical.

[daslicer]

It's important to remember that Tim was better in his rookie year than Kawhi is now. That's how legendary Tim is.

And to put his MVP years in perspective, he was averaging over 25 & 12. Actually there's only one player this season (DeMarcus Cousins with 27 & 11.6) who is averaging more than Duncan's career numbers (let's not even mention peak). Duncan was a monster in an era with legit HoF bigs. Prime Duncan now would be killing everybody. I'm quite sure the media and fans would react exactly the same way they did before, maybe even more as there would be no competition.

I would also add that Duncan could have scored 30-10 per game in his prime but didn't do it because he knew overall how to win games. Duncan always had the perfect balance when it came to scoring. He knew when he had to score 30 plus to win a game and when to dial back and just drop 20. I remember a good friend of mine whose a Laker fan used to call Duncan the great quota machine back in his prime because according to him you knew if Tim only had 2 points after 3 quarters he was going to go ham in the 4 quarter and get at least 20.

[daslicer]

Kawhi and Durant have roughly the same vertical.

I looked it up you are almost right but Durant edges out Kawhi by .5 plus he's a legit 6'10 which helps when it comes to scoring. If you look up the verticals of all those other guys they are all greater than Kawhi's by several inches.

[SPURt]

It's important to remember that Tim was better in his rookie year than Kawhi is now. That's how legendary Tim is.

And to put his MVP years in perspective, he was averaging over 25 & 12. Actually there's only one player this season (DeMarcus Cousins with 27 & 11.6) who is averaging more than Duncan's career numbers (let's not even mention peak). Duncan was a monster in an era with legit HoF bigs. Prime Duncan now would be killing everybody. I'm quite sure the media and fans would react exactly the same way they did before, maybe even more as there would be no competition.
I'm not arguing Kawhi is better than prime Tim. I was referencing Tim's demeanor. I almost feel like the wrong team would've tried to push a rookie Tim Duncan to add a three to his game.

[SPURt]

When I watch Kawhi play his game reminds me of MJ from '95-'98 just less athletic and not as good of a ball handler. The first part there's not much Kawhi can do to fix that. He has above average athletic ability but not super athletic ability. Athleticism is very important for a perimeter player when it comes to being a dominant scorer. The greatest perimeter scorers tended to be super athletic freaks. Guys like Lebron,Durant,Wade,Kobe,Tmac,Westbrook all have that super athletic ability that gave them a quick first step along with being great finishers around the rim. I will say Kawhi has learned to make great acrobatic lay ups around the rim but he can't get up as high as those guys. Kawhi no matter how hard he works will never have the leaping ability or the great quickness those guys had that allows for infinite opportunities to score. When it comes to ball handling skills Kawhi has gotten a lot better but he still has room for improvement. There are times when he drives I have notice he gets stripped or loses the ball. I think that's the part where Kawhi will get better at knowing his work ethic. Kawhi's offensive game as it is right now I don't believe he could be a guy who could score 27-30 per a game consistently even if Pop let him go unhinged.
I agree that Kawhi's greatest weakness compared to other great players now is his handles, though much improved. I do think he could get over 27 ppg though. The last few weeks Kawhi has gotten over that mark a lot and it's within the offense. It would be weird however to see him go off for 50+

[will_spurs]

I almost feel like the wrong team would've tried to push a rookie Tim Duncan to add a three to his game.

Well it's a different league today...

[daslicer]

Just looked up Manu's vertical which is 38 inches pretty amazing.

[Obstructed_View]

What part of Kawhi's game precludes him from being considered an elite scorer? People are coming on and saying Kawhi just isn't a great scorer without any real analysis.

He's an elite defender, and an elite rebounder for his position. As for scoring, you'd have to say he's an incredibly consistent good scorer, which is a step down from a great scorer, and another step down from an elite scorer. Not a terribly complicated analysis.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't care what Lebron was in the past, this year Kawhi has been a better offensive player. We've already seen what happens between Lebron and Kawhi head to head. Your statement Kawhi is a tier below Lebron I just don't agree with.

And this is why I dread having these kinds of conversations, because the new crop of Kawhi fans are completely and utterly fucking delusional.

[Obstructed_View]

I would also add that Duncan could have scored 30-10 per game in his prime but didn't do it because he knew overall how to win games. Duncan always had the perfect balance when it came to scoring. He knew when he had to score 30 plus to win a game and when to dial back and just drop 20. I remember a good friend of mine whose a Laker fan used to call Duncan the great quota machine back in his prime because according to him you knew if Tim only had 2 points after 3 quarters he was going to go ham in the 4 quarter and get at least 20.

Duncan's record when he scores over 35 points in a game is just under .500.

[daslicer]

And this is why I dread having these kinds of conversations, because the new crop of Kawhi fans are completely and utterly fucking delusional.

Agreed they really believe he's going to be like a Duncan GOAT type of player when he's far from it.

[daslicer]

Duncan's record when he scores over 35 points in a game is just under .500.

That is true I remember a lot of times when he scored 40 plus the Spurs would lose but still the point is when Duncan had to get 30 or more he could do it. The Lakers and Mav's series are the best example of that.

[Obstructed_View]

Agreed they really believe he's going to be like a Duncan GOAT type of player when he's far from it.

I have no problem with someone saying that he could be, or predicting that he will be, but we've got people saying that he's as good as Duncan or Robinson or Lebron NOW, which is fucking ludicrous. I gave him a nod over Pippen based on intangibles, but I'm probably going to regret it because now the Kobhi Leonard fans are going to think he's already a fucking hall of famer.

[SpursFan86]

And this is why I dread having these kinds of conversations, because the new crop of Kawhi fans are completely and utterly fucking delusional.

Kawhi is already better than D-Rob, tbh...good chance he passes Tim within the next few years as well...

[Obstructed_View]

That is true I remember a lot of times when he scored 40 plus the Spurs would lose but still the point is when Duncan had to get 30 or more he could do it. The Lakers and Mav's series are the best example of that.

Yeah, the most I think I ever saw Duncan score in a game I attended was the Dairy Queen game, and I think he had 29 and 17 before fouling out.

[tonight...you]

Kawhi Leonard is THE total package on par with nobody.
That guy takes over games as much as Curry and affects game-plans even more-so than Curry since coaches have to account for both his offense and his historic defense.
Curry's own coach has to game-plan Curry's defense to mitigate his limitations.

Curry is out of this solar system on offense. It's insane, but Kawhi influences the game just as much as Curry on a more per second/per second level since he has to accounted for on both sides of the floor every single possession.
That priceless.

[Dro210]

we're only talking about potential and that isn't going to cut it with the media and casual fans.

It's not potential, it's very, very real... and who cares what casuals and the media think? Popular opinion is generally an idiots opinion, because people are generally idiots. I don't need some media talkinghead or faggot from reddit, who watch highlights and think they're smart because they found out about advanced stats, to agree with me before what I know is validated.... I listened to dumbasses try to tell us Kobe was better than Timmy for 16 years before they finally had to shut up. It was never true tho, ever. Anybody who tries to tell me they'd rather have any player in the world over Kawhi Leonard gets laughed at in their face, especially the ones that say Curry. Where those Anthony Davis peeps at right now? They still taking him over Kawhi? lol. I'd rather have Towns... Hypetrains tend to derail, Kawhi is a rocketship. It's in the work ethic. Curry has the work ethic, it's why he is where he is now, but his body limits him on the other end and he's also topped out. This is the tippy top of the peak, and it's aided by unreasonable factors.... LeBron is and always has been incredible, but Kawhi IS better now. That's not a knock on LeBron. He's in his 30s and has played a million games. Kawhi is entering his prime, LeBron is leaving his (he's far from done being elite tho, not saying that at all). Kawhi shoots 50% from deep, LeBron couldn't throw it in the ocean from 23' these days. I kinda hope the Cavs can make it, so Kawhi and the Spurs can get the best of him yet again, but I don't think they'll even get there..... And for those that still constantly underrate Kawhi's playmaking, you're wrong. It's just not true anymore that that's a hole in his game. Just because he's not running point forward and showing it off all the time, doesn't mean it's not there. He's erasing all the flaws, he gets better every night. WATCH. All you have to do is go back to Saturday night to see it plain as day. 2 of the plays he made feeding LaMarcus alone were among the prettiest I've seen out of the team all year. He's not LeBron level in that category, but LeBron is one of the greatest/smartest, most natural playmakers to ever pick up the rock. (It's always been such a wasted advantage to play him at SF imo, even if he was the defacto ballhandler. Just asinine to put a 6' scoring guard out there (Boobie, Jones, Mo, Kyrie, etc) with that guy. At least Rio could play a little defense, but still a huge waste. Put somebody with size and a decent outside shot at the 3, and have a 6'9 270lb greatest PG of all-time)

As for not being an elite scorer... Don't confuse his usage for his effectiveness. I'd say his percentages say otherwise. He's basically 50/50/90 and has become one of the best finishers around the rim, that's the rarest air there is. He's creating his own buckets too, he can still hardly even get our boy Tony to pass him the ball. Curry has everybody's sense of reality warped right now, because he's allowed to play in a way no other player has been allowed to play. I've been saying that since 2013. He's not the only one that can do it, he's the only one that has the green light to do it. It's been a cause for great success, but it'll be their downfall too. It's not how the game is played. It would have gotten them beat last year if they had played anybody worth even half a shit.


Just looked up Manu's vertical which is 38 inches pretty amazing.

Yea, Manu was a freak... I remember reading a scouting report back then that said he had Ray Allen's scoring ability with dunk contest hops. I was excited from that day forward, and he didn't disappoint.... He doesn't still get up that high tho, lol, those are likely draft numbers

[Obstructed_View]

Kawhi Leonard is THE total package on par with nobody.
That guy takes over games as much as Curry and affects game-plans even more-so than Curry since coaches have to account for both his offense and his historic defense.
Curry's own coach has to game-plan Curry's defense to mitigate his limitations.

Curry is out of this solar system on offense. It's insane, but Kawhi influences the game just as much as Curry on a more per second/per second level since he has to accounted for on both sides of the floor every single possession.
That priceless.

Except that the Spurs' historic defense fell off a cliff when Duncan sat out. Wah wah.

[tonight...you]

Except that the Spurs' historic defense fell off a cliff when Duncan sat out. Wah wah.
Takes more than one player to make a team have a "historic defense" and I was talking about his individual defense, not the team. Good show on that goof.
Of course Duncan sitting would affect the Team's D. Tell me more!

[GSH]

I don't get how it's an insult. Everybody loves offense, and Curry is the best offensive player in the game right now. The people saying "two-way" are reminding everyone that defense counts, too. They're giving him credit for at least being in the running for best player. If judged on offense alone, Curry wins hands-down.

As for those talking about what a good defender Curry is (and everyone "knows" that Draymond is a DPOY contender, right?) - the Spurs are blowing away the league with 92.6 opponent PPG. Try doing that with Curry and Draymond, but without Kawhi. Oh, wait... they are. The Warriors are giving up 12 PPG more than the Spurs.

The Spurs' defense isn't just about Kawhi. But the Warriors' aren't giving up that many PPG because Curry is such a great defender, either.

[will_spurs]

coaches have to account for [Kawhi's] offense.

Nobody is changing their gameplan based on Kawhi's offense. Nobody. Defense is another thing entirely.


Curry has everybody's sense of reality warped right now, because he's allowed to play in a way no other player has been allowed to play.

Curry has exactly the same green light (or license to kill) than the rest of the elite players. Same as Kobe had, same as Lebron, Durant, Westbrook.

The difference is that he's actually making shots (and especially contested shots) that nobody has ever made in the history of basketball. Being "allowed to play in a way no other player has been allowed to play" didn't give him range...

[dabom]

Takes more than one player to make a team have a "historic defense" and I was talking about his individual defense, not the team. Good show on that goof.
Of course Duncan sitting would affect the Team's D. Tell me more!

:wow

[tonight...you]

Nobody is changing their gameplan based on Kawhi's offense. Nobody. Defense is another thing entirely.

Total BS. That is just stupid. He gets double teamed in multiple ways. Tell me that's not planned. Holy crap...

Curry has exactly the same green light (or license to kill) than the rest of the elite players. Same as Kobe had, same as Lebron, Durant, Westbrook.

The difference is that he's actually making shots (and especially contested shots) that nobody has ever made in the history of basketball. Being "allowed to play in a way no other player has been allowed to play" didn't give him range...

No argument here.

[Dro210]

Curry has exactly the same green light (or license to kill) than the rest of the elite players. Same as Kobe had, same as Lebron, Durant, Westbrook.

The difference is that he's actually making shots (and especially contested shots) that nobody has ever made in the history of basketball. Being "allowed to play in a way no other player has been allowed to play" didn't give him range...

Nah brotha, not even close, nobody has taken the shots he takes. It's a credit to him that he's such a cold shooter that he can rightfully get away with it in the big picture, but it's still bad basketball a lot of the time..... I never saw The Pistol live, and the game was different then, but Gilbert Arenas for a stretch was the only guy in my lifetime even close to similar when it comes to pulling some of the stuff he does.

No ones gonna denying his range, or that he's a great shooter.

[SPURt]

I have no problem with someone saying that he could be, or predicting that he will be, but we've got people saying that he's as good as Duncan or Robinson or Lebron NOW, which is fucking ludicrous. I gave him a nod over Pippen based on intangibles, but I'm probably going to regret it because now the Kobhi Leonard fans are going to think he's already a fucking hall of famer.
that's not what we're saying. We're saying this year 2016 Lebron. The above quote you called me fucking delusional in was me saying I don't care what Lebron was in his prime but referring to this year. I'm saying I would prefer Kawhi this year to Lebron on offense. In a three point happy NBA Lebron is shooting like balls from 3.

In no way am I saying Kawhi is better at 24 than prime Lebron, Tim, or D Rob.

[tonight...you]

that's not what we're saying. We're saying this year 2016 Lebron. The above quote you called me fucking delusional in was me saying I don't care what Lebron was in his prime but referring to this year. I'm saying I would prefer Kawhi this year to Lebron on offense. In a three point happy NBA Lebron is shooting like balls from 3.

In no way am I saying Kawhi is better at 24 than prime Lebron, Tim, or D Rob.
Yeah, some of us can continue to live in the present while still embracing the past.

[will_spurs]

Total BS. That is just stupid. He gets double teamed in multiple ways. Tell me that's not planned. Holy crap...

Double teams on the opponent's top player is not changing your game plan. Nobody is entering a game thinking "omg we're playing Kawhi we're fucked he's unguardable".

[Benoit]

[/I]Double teams on the opponent's top player is not changing your game plan. Nobody is entering a game thinking "omg we're playing Kawhi we're fucked he's unguardable".

nice posts in this thread brother

spot on

[baseline bum]

nice posts in this thread brother

spot on

You rushed the floor for Jordan when he rang in your building. I spit on you.

http://i.imgur.com/J0Z5dcN.jpg

[tonight...you]

[/I]Double teams on the opponent's top player is not changing your game plan. Nobody is entering a game thinking "omg we're playing Kawhi we're fucked he's unguardable".
Who, besides Curry, is unguardable (sic)? LMA? You think he's game-planned? No?
How about Paul George? That guy unguardable (sic)?
Think he's not game-planned?

Kawhi is game-planned because his success is integral to the Spurs Offense and coaches actually care about shit like that.
Get that concept?
Just like LMA is too.
WHOA! WHOA!

LMA is too?!!!

Did I just blow your mind?

[Obstructed_View]

that's not what we're saying. We're saying this year 2016 Lebron. The above quote you called me fucking delusional in was me saying I don't care what Lebron was in his prime but referring to this year. I'm saying I would prefer Kawhi this year to Lebron on offense. In a three point happy NBA Lebron is shooting like balls from 3.

In no way am I saying Kawhi is better at 24 than prime Lebron, Tim, or D Rob.

And you're still saying that he's better than Lebron right now, which is why I called you fucking delusional.

[tholdren]

And you're still saying that he's better than Lebron right now, which is why I called you fucking delusional.
both players suffer from the same disregard of iq for the game. for a personally anointed 'high iq player' le choke suffers from shying away from the basket in crunch time, relying on fadeaway threes at the buzzer.... wtf is wrong with the nba?

[tonight...you]

both players suffer from the same disregard of iq for the game. for a personally anointed 'high iq player' le choke suffers from shying away from the basket in crunch time, relying on fadeaway threes at the buzzer.... wtf is wrong with the nba?
Very astute. It's in our best collective interests that Mr. New-Torch-Bearer takes this on with as much fervor as the physical side of the game.

[Arcadian]

Nobody is changing their gameplan based on Kawhi's offense.

How could they not be? He's the team's leading scorer, and he's now a threat from long range. If they're not preparing for Kawhi, they're prepared to lose.

[SPURt]

And you're still saying that he's better than Lebron right now, which is why I called you fucking delusional.
A lot of people are saying Kawhi is better than Lebron this year. You just got done saying he is better than prime Pippen in another thread. Though I do enjoy your sass mister!

[resistanze]

So Kawhi > Lebron and = Curry? Jfc.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

As for those talking about what a good defender Curry is (and everyone "knows" that Draymond is a DPOY contender, right?) - the Spurs are blowing away the league with 92.6 opponent PPG. Try doing that with Curry and Draymond, but without Kawhi. Oh, wait... they are. The Warriors are giving up 12 PPG more than the Spurs.

The Spurs' defense isn't just about Kawhi. But the Warriors' aren't giving up that many PPG because Curry is such a great defender, either.

PPG allowed is a poor measure of team defense because Warriors play much faster. Warriors are 4th in Def. Efficiency, less than 5 points per 100 possessions worse than the Spurs. Opponents shoot the same FG% and 3P% against them. They're good on defense and Curry is too.


A lot of people are saying Kawhi is better than Lebron this year. You just got done saying he is better than prime Pippen in another thread. Though I do enjoy your sass mister!

Certainly not because of offense, it's because LeBron's defense has fallen off significantly. His DRPM is sub top-50, whereas his ORPM beats Kawhi's by more than a full point.

[GSH]

PPG allowed is a poor measure of team defense because Warriors play much faster. Warriors are 4th in Def. Efficiency, less than 5 points per 100 possessions worse than the Spurs. Opponents shoot the same FG% and 3P% against them. They're good on defense and Curry is too.



That's a good point, and you're right. I was reaching.

The point I was trying to get to - Curry is better on offense, but Kawhi closes some of the value gap with better defense. I still think that's true. It's always hard to quantify defensive contribution, and that's sort of frustrating. It's the same with people underestimating the defense of prime LeBron. But if defense still wins championships, it will be a case for the value of Kawhi's defense vs. Curry's offense.

[Russo21]

I suppose when people say that they take into account something like this: 4 Examples

Curry offense 100%, Curry Defence 70%= 170%
LeBron offense 90%, LeBron Defence 80%= 170%
Durant offense 100%, Durant Defence 70%= 170%
Leonard offense 80% Leonard Defence 100%= 180%

Hence, Kawhi is the best 2 way player in the game. But take into account Curry and Durant's offense is more like a 120% in the scheme of things giving them 190%. But as there's no such thing as 120% they 'only' get 100% so Kawhi gets the nod for best 2 way payer. Maybe that's a formulation they take into account when saying that. But yes it's a bullshit thing to say anyway.

[Obstructed_View]

A lot of people are saying Kawhi is better than Lebron this year.
Since a lot of the people you're referring to are saying that Kawhi is better than Curry in this thread, I'm sure they're saying he's better than Lebron. Dude just bypasses the breakout year and goes right to superstardom. Amazing.


You just got done saying he is better than prime Pippen in another thread.
Mostly because of Pippen's refusal to go into that game, tbh.

[Keepin' it real]

I suppose when people say that they take into account something like this: 4 Examples

Curry offense 100%, Curry Defence 70%= 170%
LeBron offense 90%, LeBron Defence 80%= 170%
Durant offense 100%, Durant Defence 70%= 170%
Leonard offense 80% Leonard Defence 100%= 180%

Hence, Kawhi is the best 2 way player in the game. But take into account Curry and Durant's offense is more like a 120% in the scheme of things giving them 190%. But as there's no such thing as 120% they 'only' get 100% so Kawhi gets the nod for best 2 way payer. Maybe that's a formulation they take into account when saying that. But yes it's a bullshit thing to say anyway.

Exactly. I've watched NBA basketball for more than 3 decades. I don't recall anyone else being called the best two way player. But now, whether it's ESPN, TNT or NBA TV, they all say the same thing, and they say it EVERY TIME they mention him: "Kawhi Leonard is the best two way player in the game." I guess they made it up specifically for Kawhi.

Maybe they made it up because the"best" player today (Curry) is a defensive liability. But if that's the case, why wasn't anyone called the best two way player while Steve Nash was winning his MVPs?

[Obstructed_View]

Exactly. I've watched NBA basketball for more than 3 decades. I don't recall anyone else being called the best two way player.

You guys are just getting stupid now.

The term has been used to describe players forever. Walt Frazier, Joe Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Artis Gilmore, Dave Cowens, Ron Artest, Rasheed Wallace, Andre Iguodala.

And it's NOT an insult. You'll see guys like Garnett, Duncan and Kobe (when he used to play defense) called two-way players, even though they were top players without any qualification.

Don't take my word for it. The internet was around before the 2011 draft. Do a search. I'm sure there are thousands of articles about the above guys being "two-way" players.

[Obstructed_View]

I went ahead and created a Google search for you guys. I put -NFL in there because there were a few football links that made the front pages.

Best two-way players in the nba prior to Kawhi leonard being drafted. (https://www.google.com/search?q=best+two-way+nba+players+history&espv=2&biw=1680&bih=949&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1980%2Ccd_max%3A5%2 F30%2F2011&tbm=#tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min:1%2F1%2F1980%2Ccd_max:5%2F 30%2F2011&q=best+%22two-way%22+nba+players+history+-nfl)

[San Antonio Slayer]

You guys are just getting stupid now.

Walt Frazier, Joe Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Artis Gilmore, Dave Cowens, Ron Artest, Rasheed Wallace, Andre Iguodala.



Dumars wasn't a top defender at his position though he had an A offense. Artest didn't have a serious offensive impact even in his prime in Indy. Did you know Iggy was a top defender before last year finals? I didn't...Kawhi is called "two way" just because his offense isn't good enough to call it a top level compared to Durant or Lebron though he is a major offensive option in the NBA second best team, but his defense is on the top level compared to anyone in the league now.
Kawhi dominates defensively on small forward position having a very efficient offensive arsenal. Last one who did that was Pip. Artest, Prince, Bowen, Battier, Iggy, Johnson, Frazier are just from another league.

[lilbthebasedgod]

Because they are giving him credit.

He's not good enough to be talked about with curry, but he's a better defender, so they want to give him credit where credit is due and use that as a talking point.

[Spurtacular]

Meaning he is great or very good on both ends of the court. Maybe top 2 on defense and maybe top 10 on offense. While Curry is #1 on offense and probably not in the top 50 on defense but his offense and game changing ability still make him the best overall player while not being great on both ends. Nothing to be offended by.

Analysis not for the krew of heart.

[will_spurs]

I just had a quick look at the Mock Draft app by ESPN and in my scenario the Lakers draft Brandon Ingram at #2. The draft analysis states: "He's 20 pounds away from being a devastating two-way player."

But hey, nobody has ever been called a two-way player in the history of the NBA apart from (disrespecting) Kawhi :lol

[Keepin' it real]

I went ahead and created a Google search for you guys. I put -NFL in there because there were a few football links that made the front pages.

Best two-way players in the nba prior to Kawhi leonard being drafted. (https://www.google.com/search?q=best+two-way+nba+players+history&espv=2&biw=1680&bih=949&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1980%2Ccd_max%3A5%2 F30%2F2011&tbm=#tbs=cdr:1%2Ccd_min:1%2F1%2F1980%2Ccd_max:5%2F 30%2F2011&q=best+%22two-way%22+nba+players+history+-nfl)

Groovy!

[YGWHI]

And this is why I dread having these kinds of conversations, because the new crop of Kawhi fans are completely and utterly fucking delusional.

Well, they seem more realistic than these old fans who keep saying these crazy things in 2016.


Tony has to be that guy who can potentially go off for 25 points in a key game and average 15-17ppg over the series.

At least, they know that Kawhi's just 24 years old and has a lot of room for improvement...

[Obstructed_View]

Dumars wasn't a top defender at his position...

Aaaaand I stopped reading right there. Not sure anything else in your post could possibly be any dumber.

[resistanze]

Dumars wasn't a top defender at his position though he had an A offense. Artest didn't have a serious offensive impact even in his prime in Indy. Did you know Iggy was a top defender before last year finals? I didn't...Kawhi is called "two way" just because his offense isn't good enough to call it a top level compared to Durant or Lebron though he is a major offensive option in the NBA second best team, but his defense is on the top level compared to anyone in the league now.
Kawhi dominates defensively on small forward position having a very efficient offensive arsenal. Last one who did that was Pip. Artest, Prince, Bowen, Battier, Iggy, Johnson, Frazier are just from another league.

There's a lot of 'WTF' in this post.

Just ignoring the Dumars comments...no comment

Artest was averging 18-20 ppg in his prime, and was at 24+ before the Malice in the Palace.

Also: Iguodala makes mark as one of NBA's best two-way players (2009) (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/john_schuhmann/11/11/iguodala.defense/)

[SPURt]

All these "two way" players like Ron Artest, Joe Dumars, and Iggy were not the best players (both offensively and defensively) on a team that will finish with 65 plus wins. Curry won the MVP last year largely because he was on the NBA's best team, his numbers were solid last year but not eye popping as an MVP.

The Warriors are breaking records this year and Curry has hit shooting Nirvana. Curry, deservedly, will be MVP again this year. But Kawhi and the Spurs are the 2nd best team in the NBA by almost 10 games. Kawhi is excelling in a system that doesn't facilitate incredible individual achievement. By grouping Kawhi in with Artest and Iggy undermines Kawhi's role and accomplishments this year. Kawhi deserves to be in the conversation for MVP not diminished by buzzwords.

Would Curry or Lebron do better statistically in the Spurs system?

[YGWHI]

Nobody is changing their gameplan based on Kawhi's offense. Nobody.

The Spurs offense has turned in some type of two-ISO/mid-range/post-up/-players, Kawhi's one of those two guys and the team-leading scorer...not sure why you think other teams aren't game-planning for him as a big part of our offense.

But hopefully you're right, and teams don't care about him on that end...that could mean first Kawhi's 150 point-game in playoffs.

[apalisoc_9]

The Spurs offense has turned in some type of two-ISO/mid-range/post-up/-players, Kawhi's one of those two guys and the team-leading scorer...not sure why you think other teams aren't game-planning for him as a big part of our offense.

But hopefully you're right, and teams don't care about him on that end...that could mean first Kawhi's 150 point-game in playoffs.

Yeah that was a dumb comment. You're talking to one of the most vanilla low basketball iq posters though.

[will_spurs]

The Spurs offense has turned in some type of two-ISO/mid-range/post-up/-players, Kawhi's one of those two guys and the team-leading scorer...not sure why you think other teams aren't game-planning for him as a big part of our offense.

But hopefully you're right, and teams don't care about him on that end...that could mean first Kawhi's 150 point-game in playoffs.

I'm not talking about a defensive assignment or thinking about how they're going to defend the Spurs. I'm talking about changing their whole defense, sometimes doing something completely different from what they've been doing all season long, just because of one player. It happens with Curry, it happens with Lebron and fewer than 10 players in the league. Kawhi is simply not one of them right now.

[YGWHI]

I'm not talking about a defensive assignment or thinking about how they're going to defend the Spurs. I'm talking about changing their whole defense, sometimes doing something completely different from what they've been doing all season long, just because of one player.
Can't remember when Doc started to try to keep Kawhi away from his favorite spots and letting other Spurs players free... That Clips-team-covering Kawhi...It was in last playoffs right?

The good thing? Kawhi's far better now than he was in 2015 playoffs.


It happens with Curry, it happens with Lebron and fewer than 10 players in the league. Kawhi is simply not one of them right now.
I wonder how your ten-players-list looks...If you put Harden there I'm gonna laugh so hard.

[J_Paco]

All these "two way" players like Ron Artest, Joe Dumars, and Iggy were not the best players (both offensively and defensively) on a team that will finish with 65 plus wins. Curry won the MVP last year largely because he was on the NBA's best team, his numbers were solid last year but not eye popping as an MVP.

The Warriors are breaking records this year and Curry has hit shooting Nirvana. Curry, deservedly, will be MVP again this year. But Kawhi and the Spurs are the 2nd best team in the NBA by almost 10 games. Kawhi is excelling in a system that doesn't facilitate incredible individual achievement. By grouping Kawhi in with Artest and Iggy undermines Kawhi's role and accomplishments this year. Kawhi deserves to be in the conversation for MVP not diminished by buzzwords.

Would Curry or Lebron do better statistically in the Spurs system?

Being a great "two-way" player isn't some "buzzword" or meant to disrespect Kawhi at all. Matter of fact, being considered the best two-way player is no different than Mike Trout or Bryce Harper being considered the best "5-tool" player in baseball.

And Kawhi should feel immensely proud that he's considered this great so early on especially when you consider who else's (Duncan, Jordan, Olujawon, David Robinson, etc.) company he's keeping. Iguodala, and Artest were elite defenders that could give you solid output on offense in their prime, but Dumars was a HOF level talent , while being undersized at 6'3" - 6'4," on the court and shouldn't be lumped in with those two.

It makes sense to compare Kawhi to Artest and Iguodala (same position and similar body type), but Kawhi has a "drive" that those two lacked. His temperament is similar to James Worthy or Scottie Pippen, yet Kawhi (thus far) is proving that he can be "the man" or "Alpha" on an elite or championship level team. If he can capture another DPOY - looks like he will too - while somehow leading his team passed Golden State and LeBron (again) in the NBA Finals then the comparisons must move onto Bird, Baylor, James, Erving, Barry, Durant and the other all-time great SF's.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Between 2003 and 2007 you could have called Bruce Bowen the league's best "one-way" player.....on defense. He was the league's version of Curry on the defensive side of the ball. His defense was key to 3 championships in 5 years. Of course that wasn't going to win him any MVPs but it didn't make him any less valuable a piece to the Spurs championship teams during that era than Curry is to the Warriors. Take Bruce off those teams and they don't win championships just like the Warriors don't advance past round 1 without Curry. Maybe by saying Leonard is the best "two-way" player in the league folks are just acknowledging that Leonard would have a stronger case to win MVP if defense counted in the voting as much as offense does. I think it's just a way of validating his overall game.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

The Greek freak will soon be the best two-way player in the NBA.

[San Antonio Slayer]

There's a lot of 'WTF' in this post.

Just ignoring the Dumars comments...no comment

Artest was averging 18-20 ppg in his prime, and was at 24+ before the Malice in the Palace.

Also: Iguodala makes mark as one of NBA's best two-way players (2009) (http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/john_schuhmann/11/11/iguodala.defense/)

I guess the Jordan Rules were invented just because Dumars was very good at D.

Artest 24+ in first 7 games of the regular season. Only one full season with 45% FG, the rest is below. His best 3 PT % is 39. Just an average offensive SF.

I checked all the boxscores in 2008-2009 for Iggy against strong opposition. He just managed to held under 35% Kobe, Pierce, Wade and T-mac only once. Well done but not enough to be nba's best two-way player IMO. and that John Shumann's article...Com'on man

[100%duncan]

Can't remember when Doc started to try to keep Kawhi away from his favorite spots and letting other Spurs players free... That Clips-team-covering Kawhi...It was in last playoffs right?

The good thing? Kawhi's far better now than he was in 2015 playoffs.


I wonder how your ten-players-list looks...If you put Harden there I'm gonna laugh so hard.

Aaaand no response was made after that. :lol

Idiot.

[midnightpulp]

Well, they seem more realistic than these old fans who keep saying these crazy things in 2016.



At least, they know that Kawhi's just 24 years old and has a lot of room for improvement...

There's nothing crazy about that comment. We ain't beating the Warriors without a 3rd threat. If you don't want it to be Tony, fine. Then Manu or Mills. But someone other than the big 2 is going to have to step up with an 18-20 point (or more) performance in a key game.

[AFMadison]

There's nothing crazy about that comment. We ain't beating the Warriors without a 3rd threat. If you don't want it to be Tony, fine. Then Manu or Mills. But someone other than the big 2 is going to have to step up with an 18-20 point (or more) performance in a key game.
Do people actually think the opposite?

[spurraider21]

Do people actually think the opposite?
no, all season mid has basically been saying tony HAS to be that guy whereas most other people were saying we can rely on any one of manu/green/mills/parker/diaw to step up in each game

[YGWHI]

There's nothing crazy about that comment. We ain't beating the Warriors without a 3rd threat. If you don't want it to be Tony, fine. Then Manu or Mills. But someone other than the big 2 is going to have to step up with an 18-20 point (or more) performance in a key game.

It's crazy because you're living in the past, expecting that Parker has to be that guy dropping 25 pts or averaging 17 ppg in the WCF. And it's not about what I want...I just try to stay realistic.

[Keepin' it real]

The best two way player in the NBA must shoot more than 12 times against quality opponents.

[UZER]

Kawhi needs to assert himself earlier in games.

[YGWHI]

Kawhi needs to assert himself earlier in games.

Or Pop can involve him more on offense early...In the last three games the first quarter has been all about LMA-Parker P&Rs, LMA post-ups and Parker driving to the hoop with mixed results.

It's pretty obvious that Pop wants to establish LMA and Parker in the first minutes but more calls for Kawhi won't kill him or the Spurs. Just mix it up, Pop. LMA's plays with same Kawhi's...

[Kawhitstorm]

Kawhi needs to assert himself earlier in games.

Kawhi is the "Closer" & LMA is a rhythm player that needs touches.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Kawhi is a great defensive player but struggles on the offensive side. His low post moves and multiple fakes doesn't fool the defense. His inability to pass out of the post is keeping the Spurs offense from flowing.

[YGWHI]

These trolls...:lmao


Kawhi is a great defensive player but struggles on the offensive side.

Of course he does. He's so inefficient just 51 FG% in the season, one of the best post-up players in the game, 3's shooter, 8-12 tonight...But but "the Jazz didn't respect him, they put Ingles on him... " or it was Hayward? :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Kawhi is a great defensive player but struggles on the offensive side. His low post moves and multiple fakes doesn't fool the defense. His inability to pass out of the post is keeping the Spurs offense from flowing.

Do you think Pop cared about the "offensive flow" when he was FORCE feeding LMA?:lol

[resistanze]

Meaning he is great or very good on both ends of the court. Maybe top 2 on defense and maybe top 10 on offense. While Curry is #1 on offense and probably not in the top 50 on defense but his offense and game changing ability still make him the best overall player while not being great on both ends. Nothing to be offended by.

[spursistan]

last night was a reality check..Yeah, Kawhi is still that far away removed from taking over big games (much less on the road).. That's why Curry should be a unanimous MVP..

[K...]

LMAO..."mid your an idiot Parker isn't number three"

Losers take the field. The field has been dead and empty all season.

But sure, it'll happen. A full season of bad shooting. But it won't be Parker! ! ! , it won't. Lmao

[Keepin' it real]

723770026105405440

Zbo clearly hasn't gotten the memo. How dare he call Kawhi a top 3 player in the league. Kawhi's only a "two way" player. :hat

[DMC]

Someone doesn't understand what a compliment "2 way" is. That's called "rare air".

[Obstructed_View]

Someone doesn't understand what a compliment "2 way" is. That's called "rare air".

Agree. The ignorance is voiced loud and often in this forum.

[PopTheGOAT]

Someone doesn't understand what a compliment "2 way" is. That's called "rare air".
To an educated fan/player that values defense, it should be a compliment. The fact that people have to say "two way" just shows how much people value offense over defense. Since the game is made up of scoring the ball and stopping your opponent from scoring, you would think it wouldn't even be necessary to say "two way."