Another tone-deaf fnck up by the Repubs

[boutons]

1. All we need to do spin how wonderful America is, tell our beautiful story of freedom to do whatever the fuck we want without any responsibility, and the Muslims will understand, will change into what we think they should be.

2. Let's send somebody who knows fuck all about international affairs, about the Arab region, about Muslims (we can cram her full in one night), is not professional diplomat or even have any diplomatic experience.

3. Let's send a woman (even in pants, even a mannish woman, we don't want to excite the Muslims) do spin our story to Muslim men who treat women as 3rd dogs, deny.

4. Basically, let's send an incompetent insult to plead our case to extremely macho, honor-obsessed Muslim men.


=====================================


washingtonpost.com

Turkish Women Blast Karen Hughes With Iraq War Criticism

By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, September 28, 2005; 1:45 PM

ISTANBUL, Sept. 28 -- A group of Turkish female activists confronted Undersecretary of State Karen Hughes Wednesday with heated complaints about the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, turning a session designed to highlight the empowering of women into a raw display of the anger at U.S. policy in the region.

"This war is really, really bringing your positive efforts to the level of zero," said Hidayet Sefkatli Tuksal, an activist with the Capital City Women's Forum. She said it was difficult to talk about cooperation between women in the United States and Turkey as long as Iraq was under occupation.

Hughes, a longtime confidant of President Bush tasked with burnishing the U.S. image overseas, has generally met with polite audiences -- many of whom received U.S. funding or consisted of former exchange students -- during a tour of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey this week.

In this case the U.S. Embassy asked Kader, an umbrella group that supports woman candidates, to assemble the guest list. None of the activists currently receive U.S. funds and the guests apparently had little desire to mince words. Six of the eight women who spoke at the session, held in Ankara, the capital, focused on the Iraq war.

"War makes the rights of women completely erased and poverty comes after war -- and women pay the price," said Fatma Nevin Vargun, a Kurdish women's rights activist. Vargun denounced the arrest of Cindy Sheehan, the activist mother of a soldier killed in Iraq, in front of the White House Monday at an antiwar protest.

Hughes, looking increasingly pained, defended the decision to invade Iraq as a difficult and wrenching moment for President Bush, but necessary to protect America.

"You're concerned about war, and no one likes war," she said. But, she said, "to preserve the peace sometimes my country believes war is necessary." She also asserted that women are faring much better in Iraq than under the rule of deposed president Saddam Hussein.

"War is not necessary for peace," shot back Feray Salman, a human rights advocate. She said countries should not try to impose democracy through war, adding that "we can never, ever export democracy and freedom from one country to another."

Tuksal said she was "feeling myself wounded, feeling myself insulted here" by Hughes' response. "In every photograph that comes from Iraq there is that look of fear in the eyes of women and children. . . . This needs to be resolved as soon as possible."

Turkey, a member of NATO, has long been a close ally of the United States, but relations have soured during the Bush administration, especially after the Turkish parliament blocked a request to allow U.S. troops to stage an invasion of northern Iraq via Turkey. National Security Adviser Stephen J. Hadley visited Ankara last week as part of a new effort by the White House to mend ties.

The Turkish public has also become rattled by an increase in attacks by the PKK, or Kurdistan Workers' Party, a Kurdish militant group operating out of northern Iraq, amid accusations that the United States has not done enough to rein in the group.

Nurdan Bernard, a journalist participating in the panel, raised concerns about the PKK, prompting Hughes to respond that it was "somewhat an irony." She added: "Sometimes you have to engage in combat in order to confront terrorists who want to kill you."

Hughes later flew to Istanbul for meetings with religious leaders -- part of an effort to promote interfaith dialogue -- and with Turks who have participated in U.S. exchange programs. She returns to Washington Thursday.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

[Vashner]

They have no idea how the Arab world is.. you don't send a woman. that's an insult..

Women are to remain silent on issues.. and speak only with the husband permission..

Right guys? After all who needs freedom? They don't... let the book of allah guide you. it is the blueprint for all they need.

Women go away put your burka back on and get your ass into the kitchen..

Yea.. who needs Iraq war and freedom. we just need it here in America .. and forget other places it's not our business...

[Useruser666]

"War makes the rights of women completely erased and poverty comes after war -- and women pay the price," said Fatma Nevin Vargun, a Kurdish women's rights activist. Vargun denounced the arrest of Cindy Sheehan, the activist mother of a soldier killed in Iraq, in front of the White House Monday at an antiwar protest.

That is such a load. I wonder how many times she went to the presidential palace of Saddam and protested him? Or how about protesting Osma? Oh wait, you say she can't be out in public without a male family member present or she might be stoned? Oh well.....

[Dos]

I will let the article speak for itself..

Turkey

AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL
PRESS RELEASE


AI Index: EUR 44/018/2005 (Public)
News Service No: 105
22 April 2005

Turkey: Justice denied to tortured teenage girls

Amnesty International today called for Turkey's Court of Appeal to urgently re-examine the case of four police officers acquitted of the torture and rape of two teenage girls after a massively delayed and grossly inadequate investigation and trial.

"This trial has already taken over four years and has been postponed more than 30 times," said James Logan, researcher on Turkey at Amnesty International. "For it to be dismissed at this stage over an entirely bogus technicality is abominable. Justice has not been served."

The police officers had been charged with subjecting Nazime Ceren Salmanoglu, then 16 years old, and Fatma Deniz Polattas, then 19 years old, to horrific torture including rape with serrated objects, beatings, suspension by the arms, and forced "virginity tests" in early March 1999. The women say they were also denied food and drink, prevented from sleeping or using the toilet, and forced to strip and remain naked in a cold room. Confessions regarding their membership in the Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) obtained during the torture, were used to sentence both women to long prison terms. Nazime Ceren Salmanoglu was released at the end of last year under changes made to the Turkish penal code. Fatma Deniz Polattas is still in prison.

The court today dismissed the case against the police officers because of "insufficient evidence", based on the General Board of the Forensic Medical Institute's assessment that the psychiatric reports submitted did not constitute valid evidence. This is unacceptable for several reasons: first and most critically because at least one of the doctors on the Board had previously received disciplinary punishment for covering up torture. In addition, many members of the Board are not specialists in these types of cases, and in any case an expert committee from the Institute had previously determined that this evidence was indeed valid.

Extraordinary delays have marked the judicial proceedings from the outset and only after extensive psychiatric evaluations corroborated the allegations did the trial finally begin on 14 April 2000. The court then waited 28 months for medical reports to be forwarded from Turkey's Forensic Medical Institute.

Amnesty International urges the Court of Appeals to reverse this decision to allow investigations and prosecution to take place and bring those responsible for these violent crimes to justice.

"The Turkish justice system has failed victims of human rights violations once again," said James Logan. "If the Court allows this decision to stand, it will be sending the clearest message yet that the state sanctions violence and brutality committed by police and security officers."

For background information please see press releases Turkey: Kurdish girls raped and sexually abused in police custody,19 November 1999, and Turkey: Insufficient and inadequate -- judicial remedies against torturers and killers, 16 November 2004

[boutons]

the article says some Turkish police raped some girls and justice system is not pursuing it.

what does that say about Karen Hughes spinning America apparently with little success in Turkey?

Don't you think a "Turkish Dos" could list pages and pages of atrocities committed by US law enforcement and military people with little or no reaction from the US justice system? And it would just be as irrelevant to this thread as your dumbass post.

[Dos]

apparently the article has spoken for itself, it's reduced you down again to insulting other poster... bah

[Dos]

these turkish women and boutons should speaking out against it's own nations policies.

Turkey accused of torturing mentally disabled
Wed Sep 28, 9:05 AM ET
ISTANBUL (AFP) - An international human rights group that campaigns for the mentally disabled denounced the treatment of handicapped people in Turkey, saying some patients were subjected to torture and inhumane treatment.

ADVERTISEMENT

Presenting an in-depth report on Turkey, the chairman of Mental Disability Rights International (MDRI), Eric Rosenthal, said some practices in Turkey contravened a European convention on torture.

"We have identified a practice of torture: the use of electroconvulsive treatments (ECT) without anaesthesia," he told a news conference.

"We have found children in orphanages and rehabilitation centres tied down to their beds, denied medical treatment, left without rehabilitation and left without the support they need to get food to keep them alive."

Rosenthal also said that many people without disabilities had been locked up in psychiatric institutions or rehabilitation centres because of a lack of guidelines on internment.

The report, researched over two years in specialised centres in Turkey, comes days before Turkey is set to begin talks with the European Union about becoming a member of the 25-member bloc.

Rosenthal insisted that the findings of the report should not be used to prevent the mainly Muslim country joining the EU, but he seemed aware of the pressures on Turkey to improve its record on human rights and accountability.

"I want to emphasise that there is no reason why these abuses should stand in the way of Turkey's accession because Turkey has every ability to end the most serious abuses tomorrow," he said.

[Useruser666]

Hasn't anyone else heard of a Turkish prison?

[SpursWoman]

"War makes the rights of women completely erased and poverty comes after war -- and women pay the price," said Fatma Nevin Vargun, a Kurdish women's rights activist.

I think she needs to go chat with the very first woman to vote in Afganistan a couple of months ago...or the ones that now get to go to school and learn how to read.

[Ocotillo]

That is such a load. I wonder how many times she went to the presidential palace of Saddam and protested him? Or how about protesting Osma? Oh wait, you say she can't be out in public without a male family member present or she might be stoned? Oh well.....

I doubt she went to Saddam's palace like, ever because she lives in Turkey.

I find it humorous that some here are busting Turkey's chops over their human rights. If Iraq evolves to what Turkey is now, it would be a NeoCon's wet dream. For all it's shortcomings, Turkey has elections, women have more rights then other Islamic countries, the government itself is somewhat pro U.S. and in the context of the Muslim world they are wildly pro U.S.

They have concerns that the Kurds within Turkey would be emboldened by the Iraqi Kurds gaining status and power within Iraq or worse, independence should a civil war totally explode and the Kurds end up with their own country.

Karen Hughes is a Republican P.R. hack, she is no diplomat. The Busheviks have the right idea here in reaching out to the Muslim world but as is their nature, their execution is one major screw up.

Maybe Brownie could lend a hand. At least he has some experience with Arabians.....even if they are of the equine variety.

[SpursWoman]

If Iraq evolves to what Turkey is now, it would be a NeoCon's wet dream. For all it's shortcomings, Turkey has elections, women have more rights then other Islamic countries, the government itself is somewhat pro U.S. and in the context of the Muslim world they are wildly pro U.S.


Shouldn't that be everyone's wet dream? Or are the wild far-right ramblings about how the *left* wants to see us & Iraq fail so they don't look like big fucking jackasses by saying to war is a quagmire, etc., and that all of those soldiers haven't died in vain? I used to think they were nuts, but comments like that make me wonder.

A Freudian slip?

[Useruser666]

I doubt she went to Saddam's palace like, ever because she lives in Turkey.

I find it humorous that some here are busting Turkey's chops over their human rights. If Iraq evolves to what Turkey is now, it would be a NeoCon's wet dream. For all it's shortcomings, Turkey has elections, women have more rights then other Islamic countries, the government itself is somewhat pro U.S. and in the context of the Muslim world they are wildly pro U.S.

They have concerns that the Kurds within Turkey would be emboldened by the Iraqi Kurds gaining status and power within Iraq or worse, independence should a civil war totally explode and the Kurds end up with their own country.

Karen Hughes is a Republican P.R. hack, she is no diplomat. The Busheviks have the right idea here in reaching out to the Muslim world but as is their nature, their execution is one major screw up.

Maybe Brownie could lend a hand. At least he has some experience with Arabians.....even if they are of the equine variety.


I know where she lives. But she is speaking out on Iraq, so therefore, it is absolutely relevant. To reiterate my point, she calls the arresting of Sheehan wrong, yet would expect far worse from the government we disposed of in Iraq. She also fails to realise that Sheehan was breaking the law. A law that is not in violation of her rights.

[Ocotillo]

A Freudian slip?

Not at all. This is the Neo Con war, that is their goal or at least the latest one. I want my fellow Americans out of Iraq. It was a pre-emptive war that should never have been waged. What happens when we withdraw, will happen when we withdraw. That is whether we withdraw within the next 12 montsh or if we stay the next 12 years.

[SpursWoman]

So, because you don't believe in the war, you're basically saying you want them to fail (i.e. nothing good to come out of it) so you can have bragging rights over all of the Republicans you know.

Gottcha.

[boutons]

Someone being against STARTING this war and the lying Repub bastards who started it does not mean that someone wants the Repubs to lose the war (I respect and pity the troops being wasted), nor wants to bring the troops home immediately.

I do want the Repubs to pay dearly for their crime.

Repubs NO-NOT-EQUAL USA.

But I realize these distinctions are probably way too fine for the garden-variety, narrow-minded red-stater to perceive.

Did I say "narrow-minded"? Sorry, an understatement. CLOSE-minded.

[boutons]

washingtonpost.com

Vastness of Karen Hughes's Task Looms Larger

By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, September 29, 2005; 3:39 PM

ISTANBUL, Sept. 29 -- When Karen Hughes met with Egyptians on a boat floating on the Nile River on the second day of her Middle East tour, she wore a piece of jewelry she had just purchased from noted Egyptian designer Azza Fahni -- a pearl necklace with a medallion inscribed with the Arabic words for "Love, sincerity, friendship."

The inscription echoed the relentless themes that Hughes -- the undersecretary of state and Bush confidant charged with burnishing the U.S. image in the Muslim world -- stressed at every public forum during her five-day trip to Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Hughes focused on common love of family, her sincere effort to reach out to bridge gaps in perception and the long history of friendship and exchanges between peoples.

Indeed, Hughes brought the tactics of a U.S. political campaign to the world of diplomacy, mixing evocative images with simple and sometimes hokey lines -- "I am a mom and I love kids" -- designed to strike an emotional chord with Muslim audiences.

But as Hughes completed her trip and flew back to Washington Thursday, the vastness of her task loomed even larger than when she left. The local media attention -- which appeared to grow in the course of the week -- mixed pictures of her holding smiling children with skeptical and dismissive reports. Her audiences, especially in Egypt, often consisted of elites with long ties to the United States, but many said the core reason for the poor American image remained U.S. policies, not how those policies were marketed or presented.

Abdel-Rahman Rashid, a prominent writer and head of al-Arabiya satellite network, wrote in the London-based Arabic newspaper Asharq Al-Awsat that, in the Arab world, the United States "resembles a woman of ill-repute whom everyone wants to court but only in secret." He said Hughes "will face an important decision: repair the U.S.'s reputation, which is nearly impossible, or modify the country's policies, also almost unfeasible."

For many in the region, the United States is considered both scary -- because of the war in Iraq -- and hypocritical, because the administration calls for democracy while funneling $2 billion a year to an autocratic regime like Egypt, with much of that devoted to the military and infrastructure projects.

Aly Abdel Fatah, an activist in the Muslim Brotherhood -- which is officially banned by the Egyptian government -- said in a telephone interview that if Hughes had met with him, he would have asked her to "support real reform in the Middle East, not a cosmetic one but a real one that would allow the people to participate." He added that the United States needed to be an "honest broker" in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and let the "Iraqis govern themselves."

Hughes, assessing the trip for reporters traveling with her, said she was not taken aback or surprised by some of the tough criticism of U.S. policy.

"I heard a lot of heartfelt concerns," she said. "I think it is important to talk about those tough issues."

Hughes said it struck her that in Egypt and especially Saudi Arabia, people were worried that Americans hold a low opinion or distorted perspective of their own cultures, which she said was an important issue. Hughes said she is pressing for a significant boost in funds to promote exchange programs between the Muslim world and the United States.

She also said she had not realized how people overseas can get so riled by U.S. television programs or newspaper columns that have nothing to do with the administration. In Turkey, for instance, a number of people told her they were very upset about a recent newspaper opinion article critical of Turkey's efforts to join the European Union.

Hughes met with a range of pre-selected audiences -- female Saudi students, working mothers in Istanbul, former exchange students in Egypt -- but generally had few encounters with people in the street, except for the occasional child she would stop and talk to. She said on future trips -- she expects to go to Indonesia in October -- she wants to reach out to a broader range of people.

Former President Bill Clinton elevated the "public diplomacy" post to one of the top levels of the State Department in 1999, and Hughes is the fourth person to hold the position. But it has had an unhappy history in the Bush administration, and was largely unfilled for two years. Hughes' close association with President Bush has given the job new visibility -- and helped her arrange meetings with officials far above her rank, including the Egyptian prime minister and the king of Saudi Arabia.

Hughes was instrumental in Bush's 2000 campaign, and she demonstrated the tools of an experienced political operative during the trip. She even took along two "citizen-ambassadors" -- a Muslim American intern at the State Department and a Democratic school teacher from Wisconsin -- to demonstrate the diversity of the United States and the bipartisan nature of her mission.

In her public statements, she stressed common support for goals -- such as a Palestinian state and ending the violence in Iraq -- while ignoring or downplaying deep concerns over U.S. tactics to achieve those objectives. And Hughes used the power of repetition, saying almost the same thing, word for word, in almost every interview and public forum.

Sometimes the result was banality: In Ankara, she gushed, "I love all kids. And I understand that is something I have in common with the Turkish people -- that they love children."

Hughes repeatedly said -- such as three times during a brief interview with the al-Jazeera satellite news network -- that Bush was the "very first president" to support a Palestinian state. Hughes told reporters traveling with her that she was surprised that Bush didn't get more credit in the region for calling for a Palestinian state. But several people who met with Hughes said they consider the Bush administration to be biased in favor of Israel, and they believe that it has done little in five years to support the goal.

Hughes, a former television journalist, also kept an eye on the media images. After a tense confrontation with Turkish women over the Iraq war, for instance, she overrode her security detail to take a stroll through the cobblestone streets of old Ankara. The result was video of her entering stores and greeting shopkeepers, the perfect antidote to the clash that had just occurred.

In Egypt, when she asked for a show of hands by college students who had voted in the recent presidential election, only one hand shot up. Yet by the next day, she had worked into her standard speech a heartwarming story about meeting someone who had participated in the first multiparty election in Egypt's history.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

[Useruser666]

You have the audacity to call me closed minded? :lol x million!

You sir are one of the most closed minded people on this forum. You can't even begin to see the other side of an argument. To you there is no other side but the one you stand behind and yell about. You make a fool of yourself with every aimless rant you start here. The only people who run with you are those that rant in the same relentless and self absorbed fashion. There are two types of people in this world, those that complain about things, and those that do something about them. Guess where you fit in?

[boutons]

washingtonpost.com

Over Here, an Earful

By Al Kamen
Friday, October 7, 2005; A21

Undersecretary of State Karen P. Hughes just finished her "listening" tour of the Middle East, and the reviews are coming in.

"Preachy, culturally insensitive, superficial PR blitz." -- USA Today.

"Faux Pas Trifecta; saying too much, saying the wrong thing, saying anything at all." -- the Washington Times op-ed page.

"Non-answers, canned message, macabre." -- the Los Angeles Times.

"Fiasco, lame attempt at bonding." -- Slate.com

"Painfully clueless . . . pedestrian . . . vapid . . . gushy." -- Arab News ("The Middle East's Leading English Language Daily")

"The marquee clown [in] America's circus diplomacy . . . total ineptitude . . . total disconnect." Al-Jazeerah.

This is harsh. The trip was, after all, styled a "listening tour," a chance to chat with people over there and gain some insight into their views.

And that's what she did. En route home, Hughes singled out to reporters "a really interesting meeting" with Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul , who urged her to try to look at the Iraq war from the perspective of "a common man in Turkey."

"And he said: 'You know, for you all, when you're talking about Iraq, war in Iraq, and Iran and Syria, you're talking about countries over there. We're talking about our next-door neighbors,' " Hughes recalled, according to a transcript on the State Department Web site.

"And it's an interesting perspective and an important perspective that I will now try to bring to our policy debate," she said. "Not that it hasn't been present, but I consider it my job to make sure that it's really highlighted and considered."

Carrying a map of the region also might come in handy.

Hughes also defended President Bush . "I had one person at one lunch raise the issue of the president mentioning God in his speeches," she told reporters. "And I asked whether he was aware that previous American presidents have also cited God, and that our Constitution cites 'one nation under God.' "

Carrying a copy of the Constitution -- maybe also the Pledge of Allegiance -- might come in handy.

[boutons]

User, I don't see you fightin for your boy dubya in Iraq, "doing something about it".

You don't know what I see or don't see.

The eternally pissed-off right-wing red-staters set the tone and took the initiative for the polarization. If you can't stand somebody taking it back atcha, get out of the kitchen.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm confused, are we invading Turkey now?

[smeagol]

I'm confused, are we invading Turkey now?
Are there any WMDs there?

Links to AQ?

No? Then Turkey should be safe.

[Dos]

boutons is upset cause we are listening to them... and not bombing them... doh!

[boutons]

"boutons is upset cause we are listening to them"

Dos Can't Handle The Truth, so he makes up BS.

It's very clear that Hughes was on a SALES promotion, was wasn't BUYING anything those people have to say.

And if she were listening rather running around with her head stuck up her large American-super-sized ass, do you really think what she heard would get any play in dubya's administration, would have the slightest impact on the the Repub international policies? GMAFB

The USA is the oil-driven invader over there. THAT pisses off the Arabs and Muslims, just as the Muslims invading the USA would piss off the USA.

There is no fucking way the Muslims, Arabs are gonna buy any BS sales pitch about how great the USA is, never mind from a lost-in-the-woods, in-over-her-head nobody like a Karen Hughes.

[Duff McCartney]

"This war is really, really bringing your positive efforts to the level of zero," said Hidayet Sefkatli Tuksal, an activist with the Capital City Women's Forum.

http://www.atasc.org/images/hedo.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

So, because you don't believe in the war, you're basically saying you want them to fail (i.e. nothing good to come out of it) so you can have bragging rights over all of the Republicans you know.

Gottcha.
Thats not what he said at all. He said he wants Americans home. How did you get that he wants Iraq to fail out of that?

[Clandestino]

knew a guy who was married to a turkish woman.. her parents told him he was supposed to beat her ass on their wedding night so she would know she is to never betray him...

[Dos]

so boutons what should the adminstration do to engage the educated muslims that aren't strapping bombs to their chest.... just forget about them, consider them nill... are they not going to be the future of that region.. the scholars and intelluects of the region.. or do you think all muslims just want to destroy us and the west...?


Hughes, a longtime confidant of President Bush tasked with burnishing the U.S. image overseas, has generally met with polite audiences -- many of whom received U.S. funding or consisted of former exchange students -- during a tour of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey this week.

[boutons]

"so boutons what should the adminstration do to engage the educated muslims"

I don't know what the answer is, but sending
1) a fucking woman to engage Muslim men and
2) provincial dumbshit hick of a woman like Karen Hughes,

is certainly not a high-percentage play.

I really don't think there is ANYTHING the US can do to influence Muslims cultures, so we had better go after a geo-political solution:

1) reduce US gasoline consumption (70+% of oil goes to US transportation)

2) import NO oil from the Middle East so we don't give fuck what goes on over there

3) we can get the fuck out of there, since being the invading, murderous fucktards over there REALLY pisses the jahidi/suicdical shit out of the Muslims. Wouldn't being invaded piss the shit out of you? It would piss me off violently, and I'm not even a wannbe-macho right-wing gun nut.

Note that dubya and dickhead have DONE ABSO FUCKING LUTELY NOTHING in 5 years to reduce US oil consumptinon because that would reduce the windfall profits of their buddies at the oilcos.

[xrayzebra]

"so boutons what should the adminstration do to engage the educated muslims"

I don't know what the answer is, but sending






Dont know what the answer is, but know what NOT to do. hmmmmmm, very interesting.

[boutons]

The big, incompetent, inexperienced hick bitch from Texas, standard dubya dreck, fucks up again.

===========================

The New York Times
October 22, 2005

Bush's Designated Hitter Strikes Out With Indonesian Students
By RAYMOND BONNER

JAKARTA, Indonesia, Oct. 21 - President Bush's designated hitter for America's image in the Muslim world, Karen P. Hughes, and 16 students from Indonesia's largest Islamic university shared a stage here on Friday morning. But that was about all they shared.

Ms. Hughes, the under secretary of state for public diplomacy, began by inviting the students to tell her what they were studying and what their hopes were.

The students wanted no such small talk. They wanted to talk about Iraq and America's role in the world, offering comments, opinions and questions marked by charges that the United States was "two-faced" and "unfair."

"Why does America always act as if they are the policeman of the world?" asked 20-year-old Barikatul Hikmah, wearing a black-and-white-striped head scarf, bright yellow pumps and blue jeans.

The question was met with applause from the 100 or so students in the audience.

"America feels an obligation to stand up for our founding values," Ms. Hughes answered. She quickly added that the United States was not trying to impose its system on any country, and that the values of human rights and freedom were not only American, but universal.

This is the second major foray into Islamic territory for Ms. Hughes. Last month, she met with groups in Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Turkey.

Indonesia has the world's largest Muslim population, and by and large, Islam here is moderate and tolerant. Indonesians bristle at the oft-held view from abroad that it is a country of Islamic extremists. To be sure, there is a fundamentalist element that would like to impose Islamic law, but it is small and, Indonesians argue, not unlike evangelical Christians in the United States.

The students who shared the stage with Ms. Hughes were told they could ask any questions, "even tough questions," said 20-year old Supenih, who like many Indonesians uses only one name. She was carrying a translated copy of "Power and Terror" by Noam Chomsky, the fierce critic of American foreign policy, which she politely tucked away before taking a seat near Ms. Hughes.

"Stop the war in Iraq," Ms. Supenih said when she got a chance to speak on the stage. "Who are the terrorists?" she asked, suggesting Mr. Bush was, because of the war. There was applause in the audience.

But Ms. Hughes said there was a difference between terrorists who have vowed to kill all Americans, Jews and even moderate Muslims, and the democratically elected leader of a country who goes to war to protect his country's Constitution.

"I want you all to come to America," Ms. Hughes said, ending the dialogue to applause that was almost too brief even to be called polite.

Meeting with foreign correspondents afterward, Ms. Hughes said she was not surprised by the students' views. In their strong opposition to the war in Iraq, they were much like university students in the United States, she said.

The students made clear that they distinguish between Americans as individuals, whom they like, and America as a country, where they want to go, as opposed to American foreign policy, which they abhor.

Ms. Supenih, the Chomsky reader, said she wanted to become an English teacher. Why English? "I care for my brothers and sisters in Indonesia," she said. Most reference books are in English, she said, and "America is the center for study."

Would she like to go to America? "Of course," she said, her eyes brightening. "That's my dream."

* Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

[Dos]

The students made clear that they distinguish between Americans as individuals, whom they like, and America as a country, where they want to go, as opposed to American foreign policy, which they abhor.

Ms. Supenih, the Chomsky reader, said she wanted to become an English teacher. Why English? "I care for my brothers and sisters in Indonesia," she said. Most reference books are in English, she said, and "America is the center for study."

Would she like to go to America? "Of course," she said, her eyes brightening. "That's my dream."

of course they want to go to america and enjoy the freedoms that US service men and women have died for .... bah....

[boutons]

US service men and women are dying for the Repubs, not for USA.

[boutons]

The competence of dubya's crony appointees continues to flabbergast the planet:


=====================

washingtonpost.com

Hughes Misreports Iraqi History

Envoy Vastly Overstates Fact in Justifying War to Indonesian Students

By Alan Sipress
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, October 22, 2005; A15

JAKARTA, Indonesia, Oct. 21 -- Bush administration envoy Karen Hughes visited Indonesia on Friday as part of her campaign to repair U.S. standing with the world's Muslims and defended the invasion of Iraq by telling skeptical students that deposed president Saddam Hussein had gassed hundreds of thousands of his own people.

Her remark was an impassioned answer to familiar criticisms of U.S. policy raised by her audience at one of Indonesia's leading Islamic universities. But it was also wrong.

State Department officials later acknowledged that Hughes, tapped by President Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to set the record straight on U.S. policies in the Muslim world, had misreported history.

Although at least 300,000 Iraqis are reported to have died during Hussein's 24 years in office, his government's use of chemical weapons against Iraqi Kurds cost the lives of only a small proportion, most notoriously an estimated 5,000 people who died in a 1988 military campaign in the northern town of Halabja.

Hughes, who is undersecretary of state for public diplomacy, made her remarks at Syarif Hidayatullah State Islamic University, south of Jakarta, one of several stops during her three-day visit to the world's most populous Muslim country. The students at the prestigious institution confronted her with emotional objections about the U.S. rationale for war in Iraq, similar to those she faced last month in Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey.

"The consensus of the world intelligence community was that Saddam was a very dangerous threat," she said. "After all, he used weapons of mass destruction against his own people. He had murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people using poison gas."

Hours later, Hughes was asked twice for the basis for her numbers during a meeting with journalists from foreign news organizations.

"It's something that our U.S. government has said a number of times in the past. It's information that was used very widely after his attack on the Kurds. I believe it was close to 300,000," Hughes said when questioned the first time. She added, "That's something I said every day in the course of the campaign. That's information that we talked about a great deal in America."

When asked again several minutes later, she said, "I think it was almost 300,000. It's my recollection. They were put in mass graves."

By late in the day, Hughes's aide, Gordon D. Johndroe, offered a correction.

"She was referring to Saddam Hussein having killed hundreds of thousands of people. The gassing part of that was a fraction," said Johndroe, director of strategic communications and planning in the State Department's public affairs bureau. "She was combining two numbers and two situations. She wasn't trying to rewrite the story or make a new claim."

Though a longtime political adviser and confidante of Bush, Hughes is a relative newcomer to international affairs. She was appointed this year to energize the State Department's public affairs efforts and burnish the U.S. image, which has been badly tarnished in the Muslim world by the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan and support for Israel in its conflict with the Palestinians.

The students Friday repeatedly challenged her on all three fronts. But Iraq -- and, in particular, unproven U.S. claims about Iraq stockpiling weapons of mass destruction -- drew the most ire.

Hughes later told reporters she recognized that those issues resonate in Muslim countries, especially with the young.

"I'm not questioning at all that the views are deeply held. I understand they're deeply held," she said. "In the case of Iraq, I've both heard people around the world express concern. I've also been in the room and watched as our policymakers made the decision that they felt as a matter of very deep conviction was exactly the right thing that we needed to do."

Hughes was scheduled to leave Jakarta on Saturday for the Indonesian province of Aceh, devastated in the massive tsunami late last year, before visiting Malaysia, another predominantly Muslim country.

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

[ChumpDumper]

In the case of Iraq, I've both heard people around the world express concern.

[Dos]

yes boutons we shouldn't be in the business of removing dictators.. kind of like milosivic during the clinton admin.. or castro during the kennedy admin... or keep a country from getting taken over by friendly communist like vietnam during the kennedy/LBJ administrations.... no we shouldn't be in the business of liberating people.. we should just let the world screw itself... thats seems to be the new democratic mantra... typical isolationist dribble...

[ChumpDumper]

If we're going to sell the war to muslims, we should get our facts straight.

[boutons]

Dos goes off a tangent, into a ditch.

The point is yet another incompetent crony appointed by the incompetent dubya from his inner circle of incompetents.

The prioriity now is terrorism, not removing terror-free, impotent dictators with lots of oil.

[Dos]

boutons .. you know nothing on how to wins wars... you always protect your stretegic energy supplies... if not the economy goes in the tank .. you and I and everyone you know except the super rich become instantly poor... can you get that fact through your head... that without oil we go into a deep depression in this country... yes this war is about oil it's about protecting our economy and energy supplies.. .sheesh.. do you know anything about how life really operates... do you think of the distribution system in this country and what fuels it.... OIL buddy alot of people will die for it.. because without it you and I are left with nothing...