Can the Spurs win it all without the "Beautiful Game"?

[313]

and by that, I mean the passing and shooting that came with and made up the beautiful game. Even with Prime porker in 2012/2013, the team struggled to score against long athletic teams, that swarmed on defense. The only way to attack a swarming defense like that is to be a great passing team and catch them on their heels.

In 2014, the teams passing and shooting was better than it ever was the previous two years and we also went away from isos a bit. We saw the emergence of Mills, Marco was a big contributor, Diaw 2.0, etc etc

Now the team has changed its offense to more of a slow paced, post oriented offense. It's efficient, sure, but our main threats, OKC, GS, and CLE, still have the defensive make up that gave us fits in 2012/2013...can our new offense effectively attack this defense? If OKC or GS pick up the pace and start a track meet, can the team hope to stay competitive? Or will the teams defense be enough to weather offensive dry spells?

Obviously we'll find out in the next few weeks, but I'd thought it'd be a decent topic of discussion, while we wait for this terribly boring first round to end.

[cascaders]

we can, and we will

[dabom]

Uhhhh yeah.

[DMC]

No. Without crisp ball movement and moving without the ball the Spurs cannot win a championship. They won't out-shoot the Warriors, they would then have to be more efficient, protect the ball more, play slightly better defense. The one-two punch of KL and LMA will provide the bulk of the offense and that's going to by and large be 2pt shots. At the other end every 3rd trip will be a 3pt attempt. Combating the 3 with a long 2 isn't going to put us in a good spot. We are going to play hell beating at healthy Warriors team without immaculate ball movement, hard screens and decisive shot attempts. Defense is going to be there.

We can win round 2 without it.

If we make the Finals, it's no guarantee of a ring. If all three stars make it that far healthy for Cleveland, I still take GS over them, but I don't know how our system would match up against theirs. We'd need that beautiful game for sure. Any team other than Cleveland will be toast either way but we all know Cleveland is going to be in the Finals.

[gambit1990]

^ if we make the finals, it's a guarantee as long as the spurs are healthy. we would destroy the cavs.

[BillMc]

we can, and we will

Hell yeah!:bobo

[DMC]

^ if we make the finals, it's a guarantee as long as the spurs are healthy. we would destroy the cavs.
No.

[313]

^ if we make the finals, it's a guarantee as long as the spurs are healthy. we would destroy the cavs.
News flash; the Cavs are pretty good. Dropped 117 on us back in January. Kevin Love used to give us tons of problems in Minny iirc. I think we would be favorites, with home court and all, but it wouldn't be a lock.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

IMO no, which is why I see our ceiling as losing to GSW in 6 in the WCF.

[313]

No. Without crisp ball movement and moving without the ball the Spurs cannot win a championship. They won't out-shoot the Warriors, they would then have to be more efficient, protect the ball more, play slightly better defense. The one-two punch of KL and LMA will provide the bulk of the offense and that's going to by and large be 2pt shots. At the other end every 3rd trip will be a 3pt attempt. Combating the 3 with a long 2 isn't going to put us in a good spot. We are going to play hell beating at healthy Warriors team without immaculate ball movement, hard screens and decisive shot attempts. Defense is going to be there.

We can win round 2 without it.

If we make the Finals, it's no guarantee of a ring. If all three stars make it that far healthy for Cleveland, I still take GS over them, but I don't know how our system would match up against theirs. We'd need that beautiful game for sure. Any team other than Cleveland will be toast either way but we all know Cleveland is going to be in the Finals.Agreed. I feel if we meet GS, all of our shooters would have to get hot at the same time to keep up, or GS would have to get cold, which isn't completely out of the question with Playoff Klay and Playoff Harrison Barnes looking like their usual playoff selves. But you just know some scrub like Brandon Rush will have a couple games where he hits 3/4 threes to offset it :lol

[DMC]

Agreed. I feel if we meet GS, all of our shooters would have to get hot at the same time to keep up, or GS would have to get cold, which isn't completely out of the question with Playoff Klay and Playoff Harrison Barnes looking like their usual playoff selves. But you just know some scrub like Brandon Rush will have a couple games where he hits 3/4 threes to offset it :lol
Shawn Livingston is going to pound Me Matey's billabong into Vegemite paste.

[313]

Shawn Livingston is going to pound Me Matey's billabong into Vegemite paste.
Forgot about him lol there's really no where to hide our tiny ass guards against GS. Hopefully Pop has something in mind.

[cutewizard]

hope springs eternal

[cutewizard]

technique is masterful, but sometimes it comes down to DESIRE...........

do we want to be World Champions again? how bad do we want it? hmmmm

[ezau]

Forgot about him lol there's really no where to hide our tiny ass guards against GS. Hopefully Pop has something in mind.

Pop can replace either TP or Patty with Manu to give more size in the backcourt.

[mudyez]

We can't but our beautiful game isn't dead.

In former years we used TPs penetrations and PnR's to trigger the BG, now we give it to LMA and Kawhi to do so. Some teams might choose not to double/collapse, thus not setting up the BG. But if they do, you can see the crisp passing. In former yeaars it just seemed to be more movement because of TP beeing the faciliator. Just passing it into the post is less chaotic these days (even though I think, sometimes we should at least have some action prior to doing so...hoping it's just Pop saving his stuff for OKC/GS).

I made it a habit to watch the BG tribute video at least once a month, but I'm aware of it being a highlight video. It's not like we scored all of our points this way.

Especially vs the Dubs we somewhat have to accept beeing a power team, that can slow it down. Just doesn't make sense to force chaos, speed and movement especially when they put their death lineup on the court (and in order to win the Championship, any them has to be able to hold your own against just this).

[GSH]

The "beautiful game" didn't come along with the "beautiful D". This team has been playing elite defense. The old saying is that "defense wins championships".

So, yeah.

[TheDoctor]

Beautiful game is nice but overrated. Anyway, the Spurs can still play both types of ball as we saw in Friday's game 4th quarter. That lineup of Manu, Green, Kawhi, Boris, LMA played a hard nosed D along with a very happy, multiple passes offense.

[UZER]

The Beautiful Game won't work against GS. They will out Beautiful Game you if you try to place at that pace.

You've got to slow it down and make it a grind. You got to have crisp passes with purpose to get shots at the right spot. You can't just blinding swing the ball around over and over because The GS defense is quick enough to keep up and turn overpassing into a bad shot.

[doobs]

The Spurs are playing historically great defense, which often means on offense not wearing themselves out or crashing the boards. I personally don't see this as necessarily worse than the Beautiful Game of 2014. The penetration just isn't there like it used to be, so the Spurs adapted and found a style of play that works. Unless Parker and Manu turn back the clock, I don't expect to see the Beautiful Game.

If this style of play doesn't get them past GSW, then this just isn't the year for 6.

[DarrinS]

The Spurs can play with good ball movement and higher pace when needed. For certain match ups, it's better to slow things down and take advantage of our good post and midrange players.

[Arcadian]

Yeah, it's possible. I mean, they won 67 games with Dynamic Duo offense.

[AFMadison]

We can't but our beautiful game isn't dead.

In former years we used TPs penetrations and PnR's to trigger the BG, now we give it to LMA and Kawhi to do so. Some teams might choose not to double/collapse, thus not setting up the BG. But if they do, you can see the crisp passing. In former yeaars it just seemed to be more movement because of TP beeing the faciliator. Just passing it into the post is less chaotic these days (even though I think, sometimes we should at least have some action prior to doing so...hoping it's just Pop saving his stuff for OKC/GS).

I made it a habit to watch the BG tribute video at least once a month, but I'm aware of it being a highlight video. It's not like we scored all of our points this way.

Especially vs the Dubs we somewhat have to accept beeing a power team, that can slow it down. Just doesn't make sense to force chaos, speed and movement especially when they put their death lineup on the court (and in order to win the Championship, any them has to be able to hold your own against just this).
This. GS will not double that's the problem. I can't stand the offense this year, but let's just pray that Kawhi and LMA go beast mode against GS.

[sexinthatsx]

If Pop was able to make the "beautiful game" from scratch, he knows what needs to be done to dismantle it tbh. Pounding it in the paint and post-up with a point forward in Diaw is the way to go.

[Sean Cagney]

News flash; the Cavs are pretty good. Dropped 117 on us back in January. Kevin Love used to give us tons of problems in Minny iirc. I think we would be favorites, with home court and all, but it wouldn't be a lock.

True.

[313]

Yeah, it's possible. I mean, they won 67 games with Dynamic Duo offense.
They won 67 games with historic defense tbh

[PopTheGOAT]

IMO no, which is why I see our ceiling as losing to GSW in 6 in the WCF.
So you think the Spurs will get closed out at home? Nah

[mudyez]

... (whoops...wrong thread)

[313]

Beautiful game is nice but overrated. Anyway, the Spurs can still play both types of ball as we saw in Friday's game 4th quarter. That lineup of Manu, Green, Kawhi, Boris, LMA played a hard nosed D along with a very happy, multiple passes offense.
I do like that lineup. I'm excited to see how much pop plays it and how effective it is against tougher competition


The Spurs are playing historically great defense, which often means on offense not wearing themselves out or crashing the boards. I personally don't see this as necessarily worse than the Beautiful Game of 2014. The penetration just isn't there like it used to be, so the Spurs adapted and found a style of play that works. Unless Parker and Manu turn back the clock, I don't expect to see the Beautiful Game.

If this style of play doesn't get them past GSW, then this just isn't the year for 6.
Agreed. Can't win em all :tu

[Arcadian]

They won 67 games with historic defense tbh

That too. They won with an all-time great frontline.

[Hoops Czar]

They won 67 games with historic defense tbh

:lmao ElNono (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8054) gonna love you. But seriously, they won 67 games on the strength of their home record and because the league was historically bad.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

So you think the Spurs will get closed out at home? Nah

Yeah im just not confident at all against golden state. I think we're in over our head but I'm enjoying the ride! I know we probably won't win this year but it's fine I'm mentally prepared for it.

[DPG21920]

The BG is gone & not coming back with this team. That's ok, all year they won with defense and for most of the year still had a top offensive team by all metrics. They still rack up assists and play unselfishly but the system is no longer try free flowing, crazy cutting offense.

The defense is great and if the Spurs can just hit open looks then they have a shot. The offense has struggled lately but showing signs of life. Should still create a good amount of open looks which is all you can ask for. Make shots.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

So you think the Spurs will get closed out at home? Nah

Yeah im just not confident at all against golden state. I think we're in over our head but I'm enjoying the ride! I know we probably won't win this year but it's fine I'm mentally prepared for it.

[PopTheGOAT]

Yeah im just not confident at all against golden state. I think we're in over our head but I'm enjoying the ride! I know we probably won't win this year but it's fine I'm mentally prepared for it.
I give them about a 40% chance with Curry playing, 80-90% chance without curry

[DJR210]

^ if we make the finals, it's a guarantee as long as the spurs are healthy. we would destroy the cavs.

They're dangerous when Kyrie is firing on all cylinders

[ElNono]

They won 67 games with historic defense tbh

[ceperez]

Well I'm trusting that Pop has another set of cards up his sleeve. Defense has been really stingy, but the offense is not impressive.

[GSH]

They still rack up assists and play unselfishly but the system is no longer try free flowing, crazy cutting offense.


Why do you think that is? The lack of movement without the ball just drives me crazy at times. Worse is when guys aren't making good hard cuts. It's hard to believe that Pop would put up with them just being lazy. Do you think it's because they're expending so much energy on the defensive end?

The old saying is that when you want to slow down a great offensive player, you make him play defense. So if the Spurs are focusing on playing defense, does it have this much effect on their offense? The offense still uncorks for stretches, and the bench seems to bring a lot more energy and movement when they come in. But the starters drag on offense while holding opponents to crazy-low scoring output. Maybe you just can't have it both ways.

[Obstructed_View]

Why do you think that is?

Post ups and Boris 1.9

[DPG21920]

Why do you think that is? The lack of movement without the ball just drives me crazy at times. Worse is when guys aren't making good hard cuts. It's hard to believe that Pop would put up with them just being lazy. Do you think it's because they're expending so much energy on the defensive end?

The old saying is that when you want to slow down a great offensive player, you make him play defense. So if the Spurs are focusing on playing defense, does it have this much effect on their offense? The offense still uncorks for stretches, and the bench seems to bring a lot more energy and movement when they come in. But the starters drag on offense while holding opponents to crazy-low scoring output. Maybe you just can't have it both ways.

I think there are moments of lack of effort/hard cutting, but that is just very one off. I really think it's boiled down to the new offense. There's not room nor the same lanes to cut consistently like there was with the beautiful game. With guys operating out of the elbow and defenses now geared in position to stop that angle of attack, you get heavy strong side/weak side layouts that aren't nearly as conducive to swings of the ball and heavy motion .

Sure, there are times where cutting harder helps, but I don't think that is the "problem". I think it's more scheme and what's open now vs the then with the very, very different offenses.

The Spurs own game plan has shrunk the court. Look no further than the massive drop in the percentage of shots from 3 compared to before and the huge uptick (to the tune of the Spurs being number one in the league in % of shots from mid-range) in mid-range shots.

With the old offense not being so ISO-initiated heavy (less PnR now & less drive and kick now) and coming from different spots, the game was more spread out (all the way across the court & to the 3PT line). With that much space & the defense spread, it's easier and more open to cut/pick and drive/kick.

Those lanes just aren't there now and everyone is mostly inside the 3PT line, and weighting sides of the floor vs being a more even spread.

I don't know all of the terminology but that's what I visually see.

[SouthernFried]

Why do you think that is? The lack of movement without the ball just drives me crazy at times. Worse is when guys aren't making good hard cuts. It's hard to believe that Pop would put up with them just being lazy. Do you think it's because they're expending so much energy on the defensive end?

The old saying is that when you want to slow down a great offensive player, you make him play defense. So if the Spurs are focusing on playing defense, does it have this much effect on their offense? The offense still uncorks for stretches, and the bench seems to bring a lot more energy and movement when they come in. But the starters drag on offense while holding opponents to crazy-low scoring output. Maybe you just can't have it both ways.

We just don't have "moving" personnel anymore. . Tim and LMA are not movers. Kawhi is an ISO, dribble guy. Parker rarely does anything "without" the ball...sits in corner. Danny Green stands at 3 point line. If Parker were more a facilitator/passing guard, I think we'd get some more movement. But, Parker is either trying to get his own shot off now, or just doing basically nothing. Parker is actually killing us in this area.

I don't like watching the new game we have either. I miss the beautiful game a lot. But, it ain't suited to LMA and Kawhi. Kawhi is not a pick and pop kinda guy or a driver. He likes to dribble and make moves. Just different personnel. For this reason, I actually like watching the 2nd unit, when they are on a roll, over the 1st unit.

Oh, and I forgot the most important aspect of our "beautiful game." Manu Ginobili. He, more than anyone else on our team, was responsible for it. As Manu goes, so does the BG.

[Capt Bringdown]

The clunky offense and scoring droughts are discouraging. We should be better at this point.

[Ice009]

I'm defense first, so that has kept most of my focus throughout the season and I haven't thought too much about the offense, but really, I was expecting the offense to come together late in the season. I really did think it would be fine tuned at this point of the season and peaking going into the playoffs. I was more worried about a drop off in defense when the offense started to get rolling. Maybe the resting has played a part in it being so disjointed and also Pop not wanting to show many of his cards with the number 2 seed being locked up so early towards the end of the season.

I don't know the reason/s, but what I do know is that the offense needs to start being better and the defense needs to be the constant we build everything off of if we're going to have a chance going forward.

[DenialTwist]

The analysts all say that the Warriors can play the spurs style (slow and grind it out) along with their own fast paced style but the spurs can't play the warriors style which is what differentiates them.

[DMC]

You never know which Spurs team is going to show up. If they play as well as they can, I'd give them a better than 50% chance to beat a healthy Warriors team, but lately it's been spotty and the old grey mule just aint what she used to be.

[EVAY]

I think there are moments of lack of effort/hard cutting, but that is just very one off. I really think it's boiled down to the new offense. There's not room nor the same lanes to cut consistently like there was with the beautiful game. With guys operating out of the elbow and defenses now geared in position to stop that angle of attack, you get heavy strong side/weak side layouts that aren't nearly as conducive to swings of the ball and heavy motion .

Sure, there are times where cutting harder helps, but I don't think that is the "problem". I think it's more scheme and what's open now vs the then with the very, very different offenses.

The Spurs own game plan has shrunk the court. Look no further than the massive drop in the percentage of shots from 3 compared to before and the huge uptick (to the tune of the Spurs being number one in the league in % of shots from mid-range) in mid-range shots.

With the old offense not being so ISO-initiated heavy (less PnR now & less drive and kick now) and coming from different spots, the game was more spread out (all the way across the court & to the 3PT line). With that much space & the defense spread, it's easier and more open to cut/pick and drive/kick.

Those lanes just aren't there now and everyone is mostly inside the 3PT line, and weighting sides of the floor vs being a more even spread.

I don't know all of the terminology but that's what I visually see.

I think you have said it quite well, tbh. The iso-heavy post-up offensive set that we have gone with this year really slows down the movement off the ball, and clogs the lanes for any potential cutting, so there is not much point in the guys doing any hard cutting. This year's offensive set for the SL matches the skills of the two main scorers, and I'm sure that is why they do it, but all of us breathe a sigh of relief when the second unit comes in and plays the old style offensive sets. Some folks believe that our enjoyment of the second unit means they should be the starters, but if they played the same way the SL offense is set up this year, they would have the same result.

[DPG21920]

I think you have said it quite well, tbh. The iso-heavy post-up offensive set that we have gone with this year really slows down the movement off the ball, and clogs the lanes for any potential cutting, so there is not much point in the guys doing any hard cutting. This year's offensive set for the SL matches the skills of the two main scorers, and I'm sure that is why they do it, but all of us breathe a sigh of relief when the second unit comes in and plays the old style offensive sets. Some folks believe that our enjoyment of the second unit means they should be the starters, but if they played the same way the SL offense is set up this year, they would have the same result.

Agreed, and the good news is that despite it not looking visually appealing like the BG, it was a top 5 offense for the entire year. It was producing very efficient, high percentage looks. What changed is TP's level of play & shooting. Spurs, for the most part (especially against GS) were still generating more uncontested looks than they were giving up.

They simply had too many guys missing good looks. The defense stayed strong, but with Patty/Manu/Danny all slumping from 3 and then mid-range shots not falling, it started to look really bad.

I am cautiously optimistic in looking at the series. I wasn't thrilled the first 3 games (outside of the 2nd half of game 1) with the offense. I was pretty worried. But they came out focused, played engaged defense & did what they had to do to maximize their chances to win round 2.

Then the offense in game 4 looked much better.

[SAGirl]

In one of the in game interviews in the last game Pop said he wasn't worried about our defense but he wanted to see better pace, sharper cuts, and better offensive execution. Manu being the honest player he is, said they need this too, that they hadn't been that sharp, they were for a few minutes but didn't sustain it. They had too many TO in a couple of the games so the defensive pressure did get to them.

It's not the BG, but I don't think they are meant to struggle so much either.

The bench has better passing bc they only have one Iso player in Boris and he likes to pass out of iso anyways. They need to screen for each other and pass to score.

[313]

Beautiful game is nice but overrated. Anyway, the Spurs can still play both types of ball as we saw in Friday's game 4th quarter. That lineup of Manu, Green, Kawhi, Boris, LMA played a hard nosed D along with a very happy, multiple passes offense.
:lol did we see this lineup once against OKC

[DenialTwist]

It's not about the beautiful game, they need three point shooting because that's the way the league is going. Aside from Danny and Kawhi, they don't attempt enough threes as a team. It's not the 90s anymore. Low post scoring and mid range shots are not going to beat the elite Warriors, OKC and Cavs. Spurs need to get some versatility ala Warriors. 6'7 and above players who can shoot, dribble and pass so they can switch on defenses. Position-less basketball in the small ball era.

[TheDoctor]

:lol did we see this lineup once against OKC

Yeah, I don't get it. With all the statistical info those mofos have. It was like, "damn this lineup worked awesomely good, let's save it for the next round!".