Leadership

[Yonivore]

http://boortz.com/images/funny/093005_leadership.jpg

[mookie2001]

please oh Republican leaders
lead me
for i must be lead

[Hook Dem]

http://boortz.com/images/funny/093005_leadership.jpg
Damn! You would have to bring up those busses again. Dan and Boutons were hoping they would just go away! :lol

[mookie2001]

i guess taking over control of school buses wasnt a provision in the Patriot Act

[Hook Dem]

i guess taking over control of school buses wasnt a provision in the Patriot Act
Besides, Dan pointed out that those busses weren't suitable for long distance travel. They didn't have bathrooms and air conditioning. ie....."I don't want to be rescued without all the conviences".

[Spurminator]

Which leadership are we talking about, Mayor or Governor?

Wouldn't the mayor be in charge of the buses? Bill White is a Democrat.

[Hook Dem]

i guess taking over control of school buses wasnt a provision in the Patriot Act
Besides, Dan pointed out that those busses weren't suitable for long distance travel. They didn't have bathrooms and air conditioning. ie....."I don't want to be rescued without all the conveniencies.

[Hook Dem]

Which leadership are we talking about, Mayor or Governor?

Wouldn't the mayor be in charge of the buses? Bill White is a Democrat.
He is also the mayor of Houston. We're talking about Galveston.

[Spurminator]

Isn't the Galveston Mayor a Democrat also?

If anything, she's an unaffiliated liberal, I believe.

[Yonivore]

The Governor is in charge during a disaster...

[Spurminator]

Then why all the criticism for Nagin?

If anything, the Rita response shows the power of bipartisan teamwork as well as the advantage of learning lessons from a previous disaster. Political exploitation of the two disasters is as irrelevant as it is predictable.

I suppose you could make the same picture saying "Male Leadership" and "Female Leadership".

[Yonivore]

Then why all the criticism for Nagin?
Because of his "Henny Penny" sky-is-falling approach to emergency management. And, because he was uncooperative with the State Leadership. Trust me, New Orlean's evacuation plan was developed in conjuntion with the State's Emergency Management Office and signed off on by the Governor or her Emergency Management State Coordinator. At that point, it became a state plan. Nagin deserves the jeers for failing to properly execute the State-sanctioned evacuation plan and the State deserves jeers for not making damn sure he did.


If anything, the Rita response shows the power of bipartisan teamwork as well as the advantage of learning lessons from a previous disaster. Political exploitation of the two disasters is as irrelevant as it is predictable.
I agree to an extent. But, knowing State Emergency Operations as well as I do, I can safely say the Texas Plan was minimally influenced by Katrina. These plans are drawn up over the course of years, then they are drilled and drilled.

Texas didn't go better than Louisiana because they learned from Louisiana's mistakes; Louisiana went worse than Texas because they didn't follow their plan.

I suppose you could make the same picture saying "Male Leadership" and "Female Leadership".
Nah, it had nothing to do with Blanco's sex.

[mookie2001]

Texas didn't go better than Louisiana because they learned from Louisiana's mistakes; Louisiana went worse than Texas because they didn't follow their plan

and the hurricane was much weaker, and didnt hit such a populated area

[Yonivore]

and the hurricane was much weaker, and didnt hit such a populated area
Texas evacuated more people in less time than did Louisiana -- before the magnitude and landfall location, of the storm was known.

[Nbadan]

:lol

Those buses went from Galveston to Houston - a total of 30 miles! If that's republican leadership, just leave me at home to die in peace. 104 Texans died in the Rita evacuation.

[Vashner]

:lol

Those buses went from Galveston to Houston - a total of 30 miles! If that's republican leadership, just leave me at home to die in peace. 104 Texans died in the Rita evacuation.
Nice try to spin. The bus evac worked. They where taken to a shelter that had food water and was safe. VS the lack of use by the Democrats in N.O.

Sorry dude this ain't west wing. Your spin attempt has failed.

[Spurminator]

104 Texans died in the Rita evacuation.

Assuming 2.5 million people evacuated, that's a death rate of 0.0000416.

The national death rate is 0.00825.

Try again.

[mookie2001]

oh so the hurricane saved peoples lives

[Nbadan]

Damn! You would have to bring up those busses again. Dan and Boutons were hoping they would just go away! :lol

Umm,no.

I have already explained that the N.O. buses were not owned by Mayor Nagin but by the NO Parish school district. About one third of the buses in the picture(what about the buses?) were not working, 78-300 to be exact. There was no regional plan in place to secure drivers, a safe passage out of the city, or even gas for these buses. Two days before Katrina struck Mayor Nagin asked FEMA for 700 commercial buses to evacuate the old, sick, and feeble - he got 100.

[SpursWoman]

Nice try to spin. The bus evac worked. They where taken to a shelter that had food water and was safe. VS the lack of use by the Democrats in N.O.



And it looks like the bus that burned up with all of those people in it was one of the nice ones with a/c & a toilet.

:fro

[MiNuS]

????

"dead or alive"
"WmD"

blah,blah,blah!


$200 billion of tax payer money to pay for N.O.

There's no leadership!

its like Glenn Beck said this morning: its like walking to the soft drink isle and all you find is Coke and Pepsi. One is sweeter than the other but their both colas and full of gas!

[Nbadan]

Assuming 2.5 million people evacuated, that's a death rate of 0.0000416.

The national death rate is 0.00825.

Try again.

Your assumming a lot. It's not like natural death just magically stopped in Houston because a few people evacuated. These are the deaths directly attributed to just Rita.

[Vashner]

We are expecting 12,000 new survivors of Rita in the next couple of days... So Texas is still workin'..

Dan get off your Neolib ass and do something... Go to East texas and save the people.. let them touch those things just once...

[mookie2001]

once you get on that bus
youre immortal

[Nbadan]

And it looks like the bus that burned up with all of those people in it was one of the nice ones with a/c & a toilet.

:fro

Yes, and after the Republican leadership were shamed into acting in NO by the national media, NO local officials finally received the commericial buses they requested before the storm to evacuate the convention center and Superdome, so what?

[SpursWoman]

Your assumming a lot. It's not like natural death just magically stopped in Houston because a few people evacuated. These are the deaths directly attributed to just Rita.


So, Dan...are you honestly saying that you believe that that 2 year old that got run over is directly the result of some government screw up?

I don't think the government's responsibility extends to babysitting someone's child. Where were the child's parents?

[SpursWoman]

Yes, and after the Republican leadership were shamed into acting in NO by the national media, NO local officials finally received the commericial buses they requested before the storm to evacuate the convention center and Superdome, so what?


Whatever. I thought that was very sad irony.

[Spurminator]

Your assumming a lot. It's not like natural death just magically stopped in Houston because a few people evacuated. These are the deaths directly attributed to just Rita.

Source? I'm going to assume that your number includes people who died of natural causes while on the road unless you show me otherwise.

[Spurminator]

oh so the hurricane saved peoples lives

Ha.

[Nbadan]

So, Dan...are you honestly saying that you believe that that 2 year old that got run over is directly the result of some government screw up?

I don't think the government's responsibility extends to babysitting someone's child. Where were the child's parents?

No, accidents happen, but what wasn't a accident was the FEDS slow reaction to Hurricane Katrina. Just look at the differences between the two hurricanes - W was at the strategic control center next to Rummy monitoring the FEDS, state and local reaction, W federalized the National response to Hurricane Rita before she struck (gee, imagine that!), FEMA prepositioned trucks loaded with supplies ready to go into the disaster area, the FEDS actively advised Governor Perry on how to best receive FED assistance. The difference are night and day.

[SpursWoman]

Then I don't think you should *gloat* about those 104 people that the Republicans killed during Hurricane Rita if those types of deaths are included in that number.


As for the difference between the two, all I really care about is that someone, somewhere learned something.

[MiNuS]

No, accidents happen, but what wasn't a accident was the FEDS slow reaction to Hurricane Katrina. Just look at the differences between the two hurricanes - W was at the strategic control center next to Rummy monitoring the FEDS, state and local reaction, W federalized the National response to Hurricane Rita before she struck (gee, imagine that!), FEMA prepositioned trucks loaded with supplies ready to go into the disaster area, the FEDS actively advised Governor Perry on how to best receive FED assistance. The difference are night and day.
the disaster happenned way before hurricanes Katrina,Rita and all the Margaritas.
It happenned before Tom Delay,before the NO WMDs,before 09/11.
Before Brown was appointed to be head of FEMA.

The disaster happenned in the 2000 elections when the Supreme Court elected
BUSH.

[Spurminator]

Huhuhhuhuhuhuhuh

[SpursWoman]

the disaster happenned way before hurricanes Katrina,Rita and all the Margaritas.
It happenned before Tom Delay,before the NO WMDs,before 09/11.
Before Brown was appointed to be head of FEMA.

The disaster happenned in the 2000 elections when the Supreme Court elected
BUSH.




Wow...I bet that sounded really poetic when you read that back to yourself, didn't it? How long did it take you?

[Dos]

the disaster happenned way before hurricanes Katrina,Rita and all the Margaritas.
It happenned before Tom Delay,before the NO WMDs,before 09/11.
Before Brown was appointed to be head of FEMA.

The disaster happenned in the 2000 elections when the Supreme Court elected
BUSH.


yes you all better learn from 2000.... bah haha....

Didn't gore concede the election?
Wasn't W re-elected in 2004?

[Spurminator]

This might be the worst thread in Political Forum history, start to finish.

Then again, it's pretty representative of the usual discourse in the forum. I mean, really, it's got a little bit of everything.

[Nbadan]

Then I don't think you should *gloat* about those 104 people that the Republicans killed during Hurricane Rita if those types of deaths are included in that number.


As for the difference between the two, all I really care about is that someone, somewhere learned something.

Yes, but had their been a real evacuation plan in place rather than the Republican's plan which seems to be, "RUN!", think of the lives that probably wouldn't have been lost.

[MannyIsGod]

This thread is a perfect example of how common sense has died in this country. Congrats to NBADan and Yonivore.

[MannyIsGod]

This might be the worst thread in Political Forum history, start to finish.

Then again, it's pretty representative of the usual discourse in the forum. I mean, really, it's got a little bit of everything.
I should have read before posting, Spurminator called it before I did.

[Nbadan]

This might be the worst thread in Political Forum history, start to finish.

Then again, it's pretty representative of the usual discourse in the forum. I mean, really, it's got a little bit of everything.

The discourse here may at times be monochromatic (he, he!), but overall it's not bad. If we all agreed all the time this forum would last about a month.

[Nbadan]

This thread is a perfect example of how common sense has died in this country. Congrats to NBADan and Yonivore.

Yes, the same common sense that has brought us a quaqmire in Iraq, $7,000 in new debt per person in the U.S., and a Federal government stuck on stupid, right? Shut-up!

[MiNuS]

I guess I must agree with Spurswoman and Mannyisgod on everything they write?
I don't even agree with everything Dan writes and copy and pastes.

I,I,I,me,me,me.

[SpursWoman]

I guess I must agree with Spurswoman and Mannyisgod on everything they write?
I don't even agree with everything Dan writes and copy and pastes.

I,I,I,me,me,me.


Of course you don't have to agree... :lol

[mookie2001]

i dont like it when nbadan and manny argue
im like

whoah
huh
what?
its like im watching a tennis match between srv and hendrix

[MannyIsGod]

The discourse here may at times be monochromatic (he, he!), but overall it's not bad. If we all agreed all the time this forum would last about a month.
No, the views here of certain individuals are monochromatic. Specifically, you and yonivore with a few quiter but equally idiotic minions following you around.

There are people here who can look at the situations with an obvjective eye and come to a conclustion that was not predetermined before looking at the facts.

People like Scott, Spurminator, FromWayDowntown, ExtraStout, and others.

You could learn a lot from them, but learning is pretty difficult when you refuse to listen.

[MiNuS]

Of course you don't have to agree... :lol
Spurswoman,do you agree that Spurs Women are the smartest? And have the most basketball savvy?

I bet you anything once the preseason games start and 11/01 starts teh political forum will be dead!

[MannyIsGod]

i dont like it when nbadan and manny argue
im like

whoah
huh
what?
its like im watching a tennis match between srv and hendrix
Please. NBADan isn't even in my league. I use my brain beyond right click, copy, and paste. He reminds me a lot of some of the student "progressives" I have to deal with in the PSO. They want to rant and rave about how bad captialism is and it reeks or regurgitated propaganda.

[MannyIsGod]

You know what? My participation in this forum has waned to a large degree, but it is about to come back big time. I'm making it my Spurstalk.com Political Forum Mission to destroy NBADan in every stupid thread he starts.

It is so fucking on.

[mookie2001]

well i like dan because he deals with getting scoffed a lot and always comes back with pretty good replies, instead of "youre antiamerican" or "go fuck yourself"
and very often agree with him, even though naturally he's the TRO of the left
he's like Howard Dean in the way he'll sacrifice himself to say what needs to be said because he knows all he can do is try to get people the information

[Useruser666]

Spurswoman,do you agree that Spurs Women are the smartest? And have the most basketball savvy?

I bet you anything once the preseason games start and 11/01 starts teh political forum will be dead!

You act like that's a bad thing? :lol

Seriously, you can still read here without posting. Sometimes it's just not worth it.

[Spurminator]

I bet you anything once the preseason games start and 11/01 starts teh political forum will be dead!

Nah, there's always Politics to talk about. The season livens up every forum because more people are visiting the site.

[MiNuS]

You know what? My participation in this forum has waned to a large degree, but it is about to come back big time. I'm making it my Spurstalk.com Political Forum Mission to destroy NBADan in every stupid thread he starts.

It is so fucking on.
Manny I am guessing you're taking the RIGHT.You'll be the Hannity of the forum?

this is going to be amusing.

[Useruser666]

well i like dan because he deals with getting scoffed a lot and always comes back with pretty good replies, instead of "youre antiamerican" or "go fuck yourself"
and very often agree with him, even though naturally he's the TRO of the left
he's like Howard Dean in the way he'll sacrifice himself to say what needs to be said because he knows all he can do is try to get people the information

Uh, being the cold hard opposite of someone is not always a good thing. And as far as getting "the information out to people', he also likes to edit "the information" or only report one side of the story. He is the antithesis of TRO/Yonni. That's not really a good thing, other than having a balance.

[MannyIsGod]

Manny I am guessing you're taking the RIGHT.You'll be the Hannity of the forum?

this is going to be amusing.
I'm not going to take any particular leaning. I have never done that. I'll be taking the common sense and objective side.

[Spurminator]

NBADan and Yoni are necessary to the forum. I wouldn't have them leave. Having the endpoints on the political spectrum means you can have the entire political spectrum represented... I just think there are some holes in the middle.

But the country is getting to be like that as well thanks to Prime Time Pundit Wrestling on the news networks.

[MiNuS]

I'm not going to take any particular leaning. I have never done that. I'll be taking the common sense and objective side.

what is "common sense or objective" to you is not always what other people believe.

Its "common sense" to take the right lane on a two lane street.

Tell that to a Brit!

[Useruser666]

what is "common sense or objective" to you is not always what other people believe.

Its "common sense" to take the right lane on a two lane street.

Tell that to a Brit!

If the Brit was here in the US, common sense would tell him to drive on the right side.

[JoeChalupa]

Touche'

[Nbadan]

what is "common sense or objective" to you is not always what other people believe

Bingo. Too many believe that everyone thinks the way they do, but I'm not against being moderate, just don't expect it from me.

[MiNuS]

how about a Saudi flying a plane?

how about a Saudi training to fly a plane?


where is the common sense there?

[Nbadan]

how about a Saudi flying a plane?

how about a Saudi training to fly a plane?


where is the common sense there?

Shit, what about Mahammed Atta dealing cocaine out of the Florida training school? Don't go down that road.

[MiNuS]

so why are the "minute men" patrolling the border 4 years after 09/11?Is that coincidence?

BTW,I commend property owners for not allowing the minute men on their property here in the RGV.

I don't mind Homeland Security hiring 2000 more agents.


common sense?

[Useruser666]

how about a Saudi flying a plane?

how about a Saudi training to fly a plane?


where is the common sense there?

That has no connection to the common sense discussion. What does racial profiling have to do with common sense? Most people know about driving on the right side in the US and the left in places in Europe.

[spurster]

The picture of Republican leadership should be 2000 coffins.

Neither party is exactly swimming in glory.

[JoeChalupa]

Well I don't if this equates to leadership but I just went on a cruise to Cozumel and was shocked by the lack of security on boarding and re-entering the country.

Leaving I could understand but on the way back in our luggage never left our sight.
We did the self-embark routine where we carried our own luggage and it was not scanned or sniffed by drug dogs or explosive sniffing dogs.

I could have had a few pounds of good smoke or coke or plastic explosives for all they knew. We didn't even have passports and all we did was show our TX ID's and birth certificates, were told okay..we picked up our bags which were not scanned or searched and went right to our car.

WTF is up with that!?!?! Is this the new and powerful Homeland Security in action?

Yeah, I feel safer now.

[Useruser666]

so why are the "minute men" patrolling the border 4 years after 09/11?Is that coincidence?

BTW,I commend property owners for not allowing the minute men on their property here in the RGV.

I don't mind Homeland Security hiring 2000 more agents.


common sense?

That situation was sprung from a local problem that escilated recently. And is better to draw attention to a problem later rather than never? I hate to compare it to the Sheehen debate, but why did it take her sons death to make her such an anti-war supporter? Why didn't she protest so much while her son was over there and was ACTUALLY ALIVE? Why draw attention to it now? See how thinking is fundementally flawed?

[Useruser666]

Well I don't if this equates to leadership but I just went on a cruise to Cozumel and was shocked by the lack of security on boarding and re-entering the country.

Leaving I could understand but on the way back in our luggage never left our sight.
We did the self-embark routine where we carried our own luggage and it was not scanned or sniffed by drug dogs or explosive sniffing dogs.

I could have had a few pounds of good smoke or coke or plastic explosives for all they knew. We didn't even have passports and all we did was show our TX ID's and birth certificates, were told okay..we picked up our bags which were not scanned or searched and went right to our car.

WTF is up with that!?!?! Is this the new and powerful Homeland Security in action?

Yeah, I feel safer now.


You just look trustworthy Joe! :lol

[MiNuS]

That has no connection to the common sense discussion. What does racial profiling have to do with common sense? Most people know about driving on the right side in the US and the left in places in Europe.so okay the Republicans were faster to act for hurricane Rita after everthing that happenned after Katrina. You are right!

there is alot of racial profiling at airports,in mosques,on the street!
After 09/11 even dark Mexicans were being profiled as terrorists!

How come these minute men aren't going to the Canadian border?

So a Saudi comes to a AirFlight training school but wants to learn how to manuever a plane but not how to land it? So we learned a lesson and now
profile them. Too bad!

Do you think I feel bad everytime I cross the Mexican-American bridge and the US Customs agent asks for my ID and nationality and opens the door and teh K-9 sniffes my SUV,even though I have light skin.


I understand why they do it. Am I being profiled?

[Useruser666]

so okay the Republicans were faster to act for hurricane Rita after everthing that happenned after Katrina. You are right!

there is alot of racial profiling at airports,in mosques,on the street!
After 09/11 even dark Mexicans were being profiled as terrorists!

How come these minute men aren't going to the Canadian border?

So a Saudi comes to a AirFlight training school but wants to learn how to manuever a plan but not how to land it? So we learned a lesson and now
profile them. Too bad!

Do you think I feel bad everytime I cross the Mexican-American bridge and the US Customs agent asks for my ID and nationality and opens the door and teh K-9 sniffes my SUV,even though I have light skin.


I understand why they do it. Am I being profiled?

Because you don't understand what was going on in the whole minutemen situation you are prone to making unjust comparrisons. The minutemen are not going to go to the Canadian border because it's not anywhere near where they live. A good portion of the people who made up the minutemen were actually residents near the areas they patrolled. They were concerned for their own welfare and that's why they started the patrols. They can't possibly be held accountable for a border over a 100 miles away. They seemed to simply be trying to do their part and raise awarness of the problems that concerned them the most at their local level.

Racial profiling is a whole nother can of worms.

[Nbadan]

Because you don't understand what was going on in the whole minutemen situation you are prone to making unjust comparrisons. The minutemen are not going to go to the Canadian border because it's not anywhere near where they live. A good portion of the people who made up the minutemen were actually residents near the areas they patrolled. They were concerned for their own welfare and that's why they started the patrols. They can't possibly be held accountable for a border over a 100 miles away. They seemed to simply be trying to do their part and raise awarness of the problems that concerned them the most at their local level.

Racial profiling is a whole nother can of worms.

It's my understanding that there is a chapter of minute men in almost every State and they have tried to patrol the Canadian border, but when they didn't get the media exposure they got down South so they all went home.

[RandomGuy]

:lol

Those buses went from Galveston to Houston - a total of 30 miles! If that's republican leadership, just leave me at home to die in peace. 104 Texans died in the Rita evacuation.


I would ask simply:

What happened to the busses in Houston? Surely they would have made the parking-lot that was I-10 flow a little faster...

[RandomGuy]

Yes, the same common sense that has brought us a quaqmire in Iraq, $7,000 in new debt per person in the U.S., and a Federal government stuck on stupid, right? Shut-up!
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/images/attack_1.jpg


It isn't a normal thread until I throw in a picture.

Mission accomplished. :hat

[RandomGuy]

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/angry.jpg

[jochhejaam]

The picture of Republican leadership should be 2000 coffins.

Neither party is exactly swimming in glory.

I guess you would have preferred if we had sat on our butts and just continued to add to the 3,000 coffins generated by the terrorist attacks on 9/11.
That would have been strong leadership. :rolleyes

[ChumpDumper]

Had those guys come from Iraq, you might have a point.

[mookie2001]

no joke

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Manny what makes you so capable of being totally objective, noone is perfect.

If there was no NBADan here, Yonivore would have like 20 converts.

[jochhejaam]

Had those guys come from Iraq, you might have a point.



I keep forgetting the gassing of the 30,000 Kurdish men, women and children was a humanitarian act. :rolleyes
They're called Fanatical Islamist Extremists, aka terrorists, and it should be crystal clear to all that they inhabit most countries (certainly Iraq) in the middle east.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

so why are the "minute men" patrolling the border 4 years after 09/11?Is that coincidence?

BTW,I commend property owners for not allowing the minute men on their property here in the RGV.

I don't mind Homeland Security hiring 2000 more agents.


common sense?


If they put those agents on the border to clear up the mess happening near Nuevo Laredo, then fuck yeah.

[ChumpDumper]

I keep forgetting the gassing of the 30,000 Kurdish men, women and children was a humanitarian act. :rolleyes
They're called Fanatical Islamist Extremists, aka terrorists, and it should be crystal clear to all that they inhabit most countries (certainly Iraq) in the middle east.Once again, you're getting your bad guys confused.

Not surprising.

[jochhejaam]

Once again, you're getting your bad guys confused.

Not surprising.


Only for political expediencies sake do you try to divide the terrorists into separate factions having separate agendas and differing enemies.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Only for political expediencies sake do you try to divide the terrorists into separate factions having separate agendas and differing enemies.


God forbid the real world be different than:


Republicans vs every possible non-republican

[ChumpDumper]

Only for political expediencies sake do you try to divide the terrorists into separate factions having separate agendas and differing enemies.When they have diametrically opposed beliefs and are killing each other there's a pretty clear difference. Only a fool trying to make up a justification for a war would say they are the same.

Get back to me when you find out why the Kurds were gassed and who was working with them.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

When they have diametrically opposed beliefs and are killing each other there's a pretty clear difference. Only a fool trying to make up a justification for a war would say they are the same.

And with that, jochehehhchcajadm has been officially DUMPED.

[jochhejaam]

When they have diametrically opposed beliefs and are killing each other there's a pretty clear difference.

The terrorist are not killing each other and just what diametrically opposed beliefs do the terrorists have?





Only a fool trying to make up a justification for a war would say they are the same

Obviously the pacifist posting this reply hasn't as of yet been directly affected by terrorism. Do you know how to empathize are you too wrapped up in your own selfish little protected world to do so?



Get back to me when you find out why the Kurds were gassed and who was working with them.

No, you get back with me when you can tell me why the gassing of men, women and children was justified!

[ChumpDumper]

The terrorist are not killing each other and just what diametrically opposed beliefs do the terrorists have? Yeah, everyone over there lives in complete harmony -- no one has ever killed anyone else.
Obviously the pacifist posting this reply hasn't as of yet been directly affected by terrorism.I have been, so go fuck yourself.
No, you get back with me when you can tell me why the gassing of men, women and children was justified!So you can't read either. Not surprising. In no way did I say there was any justification, so your little straw man ploy to cover your own ignorance didn't work. Nice try though.

[jochhejaam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoolakaknownasChumpDumper When they have diametrically opposed beliefs and are killing each other there's a pretty clear difference.


Reply posted by jochhejaam: The terrorist are not killing each other and just what diametrically opposed beliefs do the terrorists have?


Yeah, everyone over there lives in complete harmony -- no one has ever killed anyone else.

Way to totally avoid the question. .

[ChumpDumper]

Way to totally avoid the question. .Ever hear of the Iran-Iraq war?

Sunnis?

Shiites?

Ba'athists?

Islamic fundamentalists?

Nah, they're all the same to you.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

He's assuming that just because the dominant religion is Islam that they're all the same.

Theres divisions within Islam and theres more to idealogies than just religion.

[jochhejaam]

Quote jochhejaam: Obviously the pacifist posting this reply hasn't as of yet been directly affected by terrorism.


I have been, so Go FuckYourself



"I have been" How so?
GFY?, that would be your forte, enjoy.

[ChumpDumper]

Take a big fat guess, fuckwad.

Any bites on the terms listed above? You've had plenty of time to google them.

[ChumpDumper]

Don't think for a second that I don't want the terrorists stopped. That's precisely why the invasion was such a bad idea. Those weren't the guys. All we did was step on a neck that was already under our boot.

[jochhejaam]

Original question by jochhejaam: The terrorist are not killing each other and just what diametrically opposed beliefs do the terrorists have?



Ever hear of the Iran-Iraq war?

Sunnis?

Shiites?

Ba'athists?

Islamic fundamentalists?

Nah, they're all the same to you.

We're tallking about TODAYS terrorists, not suprising that you can't comprehend that even though it's clearly implied.

Again you totally avoided a direct answer to the question. Rather you don't have an intelligent response. Don't think yourself into a corner next time.

[ChumpDumper]

We're tallking about TODAYS terrorists,So which one are today's terrorists? Why are they terrorists today? Are yesterday's terrorists not terrorists anymore? What happened?

[jochhejaam]

Take a big fat guess, fuckwad.
Any bites on the terms listed above? You've had plenty of time to google them.


FW? You watch your mouth CD!!! :lol


:lol Your posts don't call for googling representation. I can handle them quite well myself.

[ChumpDumper]

Laughing at my loss. How nice of you.

[jochhejaam]

So which one are today's terrorists? How have yesterday's terrorists changed? Why are they terrorists today? Are yesterday's terrorists not terrorists anymore? What happened?

Paraphrase what ChumpDumper just said; 'I don't have an appropiate or intellligent reply to your question, if I post enough nonsense will you tire of resposting the question and drop it so I can save face'?




Of course I will, no problemo. :lol

[Cant_Be_Faded]

FW? You watch your mouth CD!!! :lol


:lol Your posts don't call for googling representation. I can handle them quite well myself.


But that is an obvious lie....you still have not even acknowledged the iraq iran war

[jochhejaam]

Laughing at my loss. How nice of you.


I don't laugh at anyones loss CD.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Paraphrase; 'I don't have an appropiate or intellligent reply to your question, if I post enough nonsense will you tire of resposting the question and drop it so I can save face'?

Of course I will, no problemo. :lol



Dude do you eat paint chips? You've gotten stupider and stupider ever since you first showed up here. You're worse than Clandestino!

[ChumpDumper]

Here's your answer:

Once upon a time there was a war between a country controlled by Ba'athists and a country controlled by Islamic fundamentalists.

Millions died.

The US helped both sides because they couldn't decide which was worse. Even those they called terrorists back then.

[jochhejaam]

Originally posted by jochhejaam :lol Your posts don't call for googling representation. I can handle them quite well myself.



But that is an obvious lie....you still have not even acknowledged the iraq iran war

????

I acknowledge that Iran and Iraq had a war, now go away CBF. :lol

[ChumpDumper]

So, who are today's terrorists?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

????

I acknowledge that Iran and Iraq had a war, now go away CBF. :lol


No, you didnt. Cuz you're spewing garbage. Theres no way you dont need to google what he's saying. If you knew, then you'd realize how ignorant and racist it is to lump all of the middle east as one big group of people with the word "terrorism" on their banner.

[jochhejaam]

Dude do you eat paint chips? You've gotten stupider and stupider ever since you first showed up here. You're worse than Clandestino!


Worse than clan? Link please :lol

Oh BTW, stupider is not a word. :nope :lmao

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Worse than clan? Link please :lol

Oh BTW, stupider is not a word. :nope :lmao


then why did you just use it

[jochhejaam]

Dude do you eat paint chips? You've gotten stupider and stupider ever since you first showed up here. You're worse than Clandestino!


Originally Posted by jochhejaam
Oh BTW, stupider is not a word. :nope :lmao


Cantbefaded: then why did you just use it

You're ignorant kid, not worthy of any more replies :lol

[mookie2001]

i like johnny depp!



he's a good leader!
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[MannyIsGod]

Manny what makes you so capable of being totally objective, noone is perfect.

If there was no NBADan here, Yonivore would have like 20 converts. Obviously I'm not perfect and I can never be 100% objective. But I don't think thats where I'm setting the bar, CBF.

NBADan isn't stopping anyone from thinking anything and he's not converting anyone into anything.

His main accomplishment is to annoy people who can conceed points to an oppsing viewpoint with his constant spin and propaganda. As much as I hate Yonivore, he's conceeded far more points than Dan will ever do. And thats pretty damn sad.

If you want to view Dan as some great poster, by all means feel free. But when he posts idiocy that is easily proved false or has holes poked in it very quickly, don't be suprised.

There is a difference between differing in opinions of a situation, and posting half truths and leaving out crucial information in an attempt to make a point in favor of your view.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

There is a difference between differing in opinions of a situation, and posting half truths and leaving out crucial information in an attempt to make a point in favor of your view.

If you don't think Yonivore's posts are full of the same thing you are sadly mistaken.

[Nbadan]

If you don't think Yonivore's posts are full of the same thing you are sadly mistaken.

Seems to me that for some reason Manny feels threatened by both sides of an issue coming out. Yes, sometimes I post articles, news, and pictures that can be misconstrued many different ways, especially depending on your particular political leaning. Other threads are plainly intended for fun and/or shock value.

The internet has made it possible for people with different political orientations to share opinions on a sometimes daily basis and on timely topics. This is why the Spurs Talk Political Forum was created. Sometimes it's difficult for even the most experienced Politico to determine between what is political rhetoric, spin and fact. So consequently, a lot of spin gets debunked around here. Hell, I have even been known to debunk myself a time or two.

It would be a shame and self-defeating if before anything was posted around here, it would have to be verified with ABC News or MNBC or any of the other corporate news networks, or news-affiliates that Manny curries. The whole purpose of the forum being, after all, to beat the big guys to the punch.

So if Manny wants to step up to the forum plate and start adding more of his relevant 'facts' and what he terms 'his unbiased, moderate' opinion to threads, I say bring it ON! Just as long as he and others who would like to contribute more stop haphazardly demeaning people who post here just because they don’t agree with their opinions.

[RandomGuy]

As much as I hate Yonivore, he's conceeded far more points than Dan will ever do. And thats pretty damn sad.



I haven't seen any yet...

[RandomGuy]

There is a difference between differing in opinions of a situation, and posting half truths and leaving out crucial information in an attempt to make a point in favor of your view.

That is all Bush has done since day one and people have bought it.

Let me put out a few examples:

1/2 truth
"We created 1.5M jobs in four years"
the OTHER 1/2:
During the same period 1.4M jobs were lost, AND those jobs didn't pay as much as the ones they were replaced with"

1/2 truth
"Tax cuts stimulate the economy"
the OTHER 1/2
Tax cuts stimulate the economy, but the tax raises down the road to pay for the debt you have piled up because you didn't balance your budgets don't.

1/2 truth
"Iraq is a terrorist state with WMDs that represents a direct threat to us"
the OTHER 1/2
Quadaffi had more WMD's than Saddam did, and astoundingly enough the sanctions were working.

1/2 truth
"If we took our Social Security system private we can earn more money"
the OTHER 1/2
return=risk

1/2 truth
"We don't need to conserve energy and become more efficient"
the OTHER 1/2
"Americans should conserve..."

In the Bush administration "the negation of truth is so systematic. Dishonest accounting, willful scientific illiteracy, bowdlerized federal fact sheets, payola paid to putative journalists, 'news' networks run by right-wing apparatchiks, think tanks devoted to propaganda rather than thought, the purging of intelligence gatherers and experts throughout the bureaucracy whose findings might refute the party line -- this is the machinery of mendacity...The point here is not the hypocrisy involved, though that is egregious. The point is the downgrading of truth and honesty from principles with universal meaning to partisan weapons to be sheathed or drawn as necessary. No wonder the Bush administration feels no compunction to honor the truth or seek it; it conceives truth as a tactic, valuable only insofar as it is useful against one's enemies." Russ Rymer

[MannyIsGod]

Seems to me that for some reason Manny feels threatened by both sides of an issue coming out. Yes, sometimes I post articles, news, and pictures that can be misconstrued many different ways, especially depending on your particular political leaning. Other threads are plainly intended for fun and/or shock value.

That is flat out spin and lying! It isn't about posting different sides of an arguement. It is about posting half truths! I flat out said that above, and you come here and ADMIT to it and continue on ignoring my point and trying to morph it into something else. But I guess thats your style, isn't it?



The internet has made it possible for people with different political orientations to share opinions on a sometimes daily basis and on timely topics. This is why the Spurs Talk Political Forum was created. Sometimes it's difficult for even the most experienced Politico to determine between what is political rhetoric, spin and fact. So consequently, a lot of spin gets debunked around here. Hell, I have even been known to debunk myself a time or two.

:lmao link? Oh please provide a link to that.



It would be a shame and self-defeating if before anything was posted around here, it would have to be verified with ABC News or MNBC or any of the other corporate news networks, or news-affiliates that Manny curries. The whole purpose of the forum being, after all, to beat the big guys to the punch.

Don't try to make me into something I'm not. I've never asked for you to back things up based upon major media sources.

I ask for unbaised objective FACTS. That is something you have trouble comprehending.



So if Manny wants to step up to the forum plate and start adding more of his relevant 'facts' and what he terms 'his unbiased, moderate' opinion to threads, I say bring it ON! Just as long as he and others who would like to contribute more stop haphazardly demeaning people who post here just because they don’t agree with their opinions.
I never said moderate. I have many opinions that are far from the mainstream, but they don't involve manipulating the available information.

And as far as forum contributions, I'm quite certain I've done far more useful contribution than you have Dan.

[MannyIsGod]

That is all Bush has done since day one and people have bought it.

Let me put out a few examples:

1/2 truth
"We created 1.5M jobs in four years"
the OTHER 1/2:
During the same period 1.4M jobs were lost, AND those jobs didn't pay as much as the ones they were replaced with"

1/2 truth
"Tax cuts stimulate the economy"
the OTHER 1/2
Tax cuts stimulate the economy, but the tax raises down the road to pay for the debt you have piled up because you didn't balance your budgets don't.

1/2 truth
"Iraq is a terrorist state with WMDs that represents a direct threat to us"
the OTHER 1/2
Quadaffi had more WMD's than Saddam did, and astoundingly enough the sanctions were working.

1/2 truth
"If we took our Social Security system private we can earn more money"
the OTHER 1/2
return=risk

1/2 truth
"We don't need to conserve energy and become more efficient"
the OTHER 1/2
"Americans should conserve..."

In the Bush administration "the negation of truth is so systematic. Dishonest accounting, willful scientific illiteracy, bowdlerized federal fact sheets, payola paid to putative journalists, 'news' networks run by right-wing apparatchiks, think tanks devoted to propaganda rather than thought, the purging of intelligence gatherers and experts throughout the bureaucracy whose findings might refute the party line -- this is the machinery of mendacity...The point here is not the hypocrisy involved, though that is egregious. The point is the downgrading of truth and honesty from principles with universal meaning to partisan weapons to be sheathed or drawn as necessary. No wonder the Bush administration feels no compunction to honor the truth or seek it; it conceives truth as a tactic, valuable only insofar as it is useful against one's enemies." Russ Rymer

When you can tell me how that is relevant in this discussion, let me know.

[RandomGuy]

When you can tell me how [Bush half truths are] relevant in this discussion, let me know.

It is relevant, because Bush apologists pick up those half truths/talking points and present them as unvarnished truth, as I have seen here quite a bit.

The apologistas take the administration spin and pooh-pooh anything that is inconvienient for them.

That is relevant to the discussion at hand, yes?

[RandomGuy]

http://www.jobwatch.org/ima/20041008differenceactproj650.gif


Are the 2003 Bush tax cuts creating jobs?

Job growth in September indicates weak economy
Job growth was a weak 96,000 in September, some 50,000 short of the number of jobs needed to absorb the increase in working-age population and too small to actually lower unemployment (unless the labor force shrinks again, as it has the last two months). September's tepid job growth matches the average job growth of 103,000 over the June to August 2004 period and is far less than the 295,000 per month job spurt in March, April, and May. As discussed in the next section, current job growth is substandard by a reasonable set of benchmarks and far slower than what the Bush Administration said would follow as a result of its 2003 tax cuts.


Source article (http://jobwatch.org/creating/index.html)

[MannyIsGod]

It is relevant, because Bush apologists pick up those half truths/talking points and present them as unvarnished truth, as I have seen here quite a bit.

The apologistas take the administration spin and pooh-pooh anything that is inconvienient for them.

That is relevant to the discussion at hand, yes?
Right, so this is relevant to the current discussion that NBADan does nothign but spin how?

By pointing out there are people that do it as well on the otherside?

Is anyone arguing that?

Or are you simply taking any chance you get to morph the discussion into something anti-Bush?

[MannyIsGod]

http://www.jobwatch.org/ima/20041008differenceactproj650.gif


Are the 2003 Bush tax cuts creating jobs?

Job growth in September indicates weak economy
Job growth was a weak 96,000 in September, some 50,000 short of the number of jobs needed to absorb the increase in working-age population and too small to actually lower unemployment (unless the labor force shrinks again, as it has the last two months). September's tepid job growth matches the average job growth of 103,000 over the June to August 2004 period and is far less than the 295,000 per month job spurt in March, April, and May. As discussed in the next section, current job growth is substandard by a reasonable set of benchmarks and far slower than what the Bush Administration said would follow as a result of its 2003 tax cuts.


Source article (http://jobwatch.org/creating/index.html)
Totally irrelevant and inconsistent with the current discussion.

[mookie2001]

alright whottt

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, I'm fucking whottt now because I don't blindly follow fucking rhetoric. Right.

[mookie2001]

Or are you simply taking any chance you get to morph the discussion into something anti-Bush?
that could not sound anymore like him

[MannyIsGod]

that could not sound anymore like him
Well, then call me Whottt Jr.

[RandomGuy]

Totally irrelevant and inconsistent with the current discussion.

(puzzled)
Ok then, I seem to be missing the point of the discussion.

Please outline it for me.

[RandomGuy]

http://boortz.com/images/funny/093005_leadership.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/WEATHER/09/22/rita/story.thurs.traffic.ap.jpg'

I don't see any busses headed out of Houston...

[RandomGuy]

Then I don't think you should *gloat* about those 104 people that the Republicans killed during Hurricane Rita if those types of deaths are included in that number.


As for the difference between the two, all I really care about is that someone, somewhere learned something.


Hallelujah.

Between 9-11 and now, I can only hope we will get off our collective, "oh that costs too much tax money" butts and do things right for once.

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, I'm fucking whottt now because I don't blindly follow fucking rhetoric. Right.Nah, using that word makes you hussker. For the record I don't know where this is going either.

[RandomGuy]

Well I don't if this equates to leadership but I just went on a cruise to Cozumel and was shocked by the lack of security on boarding and re-entering the country.

Leaving I could understand but on the way back in our luggage never left our sight.
We did the self-embark routine where we carried our own luggage and it was not scanned or sniffed by drug dogs or explosive sniffing dogs.

I could have had a few pounds of good smoke or coke or plastic explosives for all they knew. We didn't even have passports and all we did was show our TX ID's and birth certificates, were told okay..we picked up our bags which were not scanned or searched and went right to our car.

WTF is up with that!?!?! Is this the new and powerful Homeland Security in action?

Yeah, I feel safer now.

US infrastructure is hideously vulnerable in many ways. 9-11 was bad, but had the terrorists been smarter, they could have done much worse.

The only good things about the pyschopaths attracted to violent ideologies, is that rationality and mental stability are not in great supply.

[RandomGuy]

I keep forgetting the gassing of the 30,000 Kurdish men, women and children was a humanitarian act. :rolleyes
They're called Fanatical Islamist Extremists, aka terrorists, and it should be crystal clear to all that they inhabit most countries (certainly Iraq) in the middle east.

Um, Saddam's government was a secular, Stalinist dictatorship.

Just thought I might point that out.

[RandomGuy]

The terrorist are not killing each other and just what diametrically opposed beliefs do the terrorists have?

Obviously the pacifist posting this reply hasn't as of yet been directly affected by terrorism. Do you know how to empathize are you too wrapped up in your own selfish little protected world to do so?

No, you get back with me when you can tell me why the gassing of men, women and children was justified!

:wtf

http://www.trephination.net/gallery/macros/wtf-lightning.jpg


I have rarely seen such a disconnect between the reply and the source. Stunning.

Tell me where oh where, did anyone say that the gassing of the Kurds was justified.

[RandomGuy]

Original question by jochhejaam: The terrorist are not killing each other and just what diametrically opposed beliefs do the terrorists have?

We're tallking about TODAYS terrorists, not suprising that you can't comprehend that even though it's clearly implied.

Again you totally avoided a direct answer to the question. Rather you don't have an intelligent response. Don't think yourself into a corner next time.


Ah so you are talking about TODAY'S terrorists, as in the new ones we created by going into Iraq?

Those terrorists?

[RandomGuy]

Totally irrelevant and inconsistent with the current discussion.


I figured it out.

The thread is about "leadership", and I was pointing out the quality of information coming out of the Republican leadership in the executive.

I think that is more relevant to the thread than dumping on people who post here.

[jochhejaam]

Ah so you are talking about TODAY'S terrorists, as in the new ones we created by going into Iraq?
Those terrorists?


And just how did we "create these new" terrorists, by removing a brutal dictator from power? Were terrorists created because we interferred with Saddams brutal torture and murder of all who dared to oppose him in any manner? Were terrorists created because the women of Iraq are now allowed to once again educate themselves and teach the children of Iraq? Were they created because their vise-like grip on the freedoms we take for granted in our Country are being slowly restored to the people of Iraq?

Which of the above would you say is a justifiable trigger mechanism for creating a terrorist?

You blame the Americans for the newly created terrorists? Thank God you are no longer an active member of our miltary, you are an egotistical disgrace!

[RandomGuy]

jochhejaam--italics

And just how did we "create these new" terrorists, by removing a brutal dictator from power?

Indirectly, yes. The removal of Saddam didn't create the new terrorists, the mismanagement of the subsequent occupation did.

Were terrorists created because we interferred with Saddams brutal torture and murder of all who dared to oppose him in any manner?

No.

Were terrorists created because the women of Iraq are now allowed to once again educate themselves and teach the children of Iraq?

No.

Were they created because their vise-like grip on the freedoms we take for granted in our Country are being slowly restored to the people of Iraq?

No.

Which of the above would you say is a justifiable trigger mechanism for creating a terrorist?

You are asking this question, yes?:
Is it ok to create new terrorists if we rid the world of a really bad dictatorship?

Yes. I believe so. I am willing to accept the price to really, truly better the world.

Was invading Iraq about freedom? Only after we didn't find WMD, and the administration had to change the spin so we didn't look like asses.

You blame the Americans for the newly created terrorists? Thank God you are no longer an active member of our miltary, you are an egotistical disgrace!

I am not sure what you mean by "the Americans". I DO blame the mismanagement of this war for creating far more terrorists and sympathizers than there were before we went in. This mismanagement is criminal in my opinion, because a lot of our best are dying for it.

(shrugs)
What is disgraceful is someone who unabashedly accepts any administration's spin as the 100% unvarnished truth. If you really do some critical thinking, then I applaud that.

If you aren't willing to accept that this invasion has had any negative effects, then you are not being intellectually honest.


[EXERPT FROM A RANDOMGUY BLOG ON MYSPACE.COM]

Think Iraq was about "freedom"?

Congressional Resolution on Iraq (Passed by House and Senate October 2002) Whereas ....Iraq unequivocally agreed, among other things, to eliminate its nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons programs ... ....Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program... and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program... Whereas Iraq... attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's , weapons of mass destruction stockpiles, and development capabilities... Whereas in 1998 Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security... Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States ...by... continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability , actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability... Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people.. Whereas the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001, underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction, by international terrorist organizations... Whereas Iraq's demonstrated capability and willingness to use , weapons of mass destruction... Whereas [UN] Resolution 660 [calls for] Iraq to cease... the development of, weapons of mass destruction... Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups combined with its development of , weapons of mass destruction... ANYBODY SEE A RECURRING THEME...? Sigh.

[RandomGuy]

OK, back to my paper on the Impairment of Goodwill. Jeez, how do they expect me to write 3-5 pages on this? Heh, I would rather argue on the internet.

[RandomGuy]

You are asking this question, yes?:
Is it ok to create new terrorists if we rid the world of a really bad dictatorship?

Yes. I believe so. I am willing to accept the price to really, truly better the world.

Was invading Iraq about freedom? Only after we didn't find WMD, and the administration had to change the spin so we didn't look like asses.


THAT said, if the purpose of Iraq was to somehow make us safer and more secure: I don't think it did. The bungled occupation so far has created more people willing to kill us or help those who do. We are losing a PR battle so far, and only the stupidity of the al-Qaeda types in indescriminantly killing muslim civilians is keeping the PR battle from being a rout.

I hope Iraq turns out well, I really do. Either way, I think this administrations failures have directly increased the number and severity of future attacks against us on our own soil.

[RandomGuy]

Ok, now I am REALLY going back to my paper... :oops

[jochhejaam]

THAT said, if the purpose of Iraq was to somehow make us safer and more secure: I don't think it did. The bungled occupation so far has created more people willing to kill us or help those who do. We are losing a PR battle so far, and only the stupidity of the al-Qaeda types in indescriminantly killing muslim civilians is keeping the PR battle from being a rout.
We can't prove one way or another that we are more or less safer because of Iraq. We are in their terrority so they do have more opportunity to kill us, I would say that those who would like to kill us now would have done so before if given the opportunity.
I'm not going so far as to say the war is justified, the fact is we are there and we are fighting terrorists and we need to make the best of it until Iraq can form a somewhat stable government. At that point, and I hope it's sooner rather than later, perhaps the U.N. can form a peace keeping military presence that will allow us to pull out the majority of our troops.




RAndomGuy: I hope Iraq turns out well, I really do.
That's good to hear, there are Americans that don't feel that way and with that being said I retract the egotistical disgrace comment. (I know, you shrugged it off anyway, I don't usually take others insults too seriously either)




RG:Either way, I think this administrations failures have directly increased the number and severity of future attacks against us on our own soil
Future as in starting when? I don't see how what you perceived as the present administrations failures equals an increased number of attacks against us on our own soil. That hasn't been the case to this point so the burden of proving that point with something resembling sensible facts rests with you.

[jochhejaam]

OK, back to my paper on the Impairment of Goodwill. Jeez, how do they expect me to write 3-5 pages on this? Heh, I would rather argue on the internet.


If you post it we'll happily critique it for free. :lol

[RandomGuy]

Heh, you would have to read through the accounting standards board (FASB) ruling on goodwill (SFAS #142) first and then apply that to the case "A & B Companies: Impairment of Goodwill" from the August 2004 issue of "Issues in Accounting Education"

http://www.fasb.org/pdf/fas142.pdf

Be warned it is a pdf file 110 pages long, and um, rather technical. And by technical, I mean icky. :shootme

[RandomGuy]

We can't prove one way or another that we are more or less safer because of Iraq. We are in their terrority so they do have more opportunity to kill us, I would say that those who would like to kill us now would have done so before if given the opportunity.
I'm not going so far as to say the war is justified, the fact is we are there and we are fighting terrorists and we need to make the best of it until Iraq can form a somewhat stable government. At that point, and I hope it's sooner rather than later, perhaps the U.N. can form a peace keeping military presence that will allow us to pull out the majority of our troops.

"Prove one way or another" is a bit of a high standard for such things.

We can stack up evidence and weigh it just as people must do in a variety of ambiguous situations. So let's try putting up some things that support our arugments.

It is reasonable to expect that the pictures out of Abu Gharaib and elsewhere make it easier for those who hate us to recruit new members. We made their argument that we are out to get muslims for them.

It is reasonable to expect that we aren't going to be able to kill or capture all the jackasses that are organizing and arming the insurgents. This will leave some of them to train the next generation of bomber in the type of IED warfare seen in Madrid and London.

Intelligence estimates (open source ones) list the al-Qaeda organization and the ideology behind it as "flattening" their structure. This will make them a bit less effective to be sure, but it will make them just as hard to catch. They are indeed reacting to what we are doing. It is reasonable to expect them to do so.

So, we have provided the people we are fighting with a training ground and propaganda to recruit new people to their cause who woulnd't have done so otherwise. These are reasonable conclusions based on what is going on.

The coalition casualty figures seem to back up the assertion that the insurgency is getting better over time at producing casualties. (The figures have remained flat despite the increasing reliance on both armored vehicles and burden sharing with the Iraqi security forces).

There are indeed some good things going on. They are irrelevant to the overall perception that the US is the bad guy. The message is just not making it through the clutter. We may have a list of all the good things we are doing and make that available on the internet, but most muslims in the world, have little or no access to the internet. They know what is in their local newspaper or what is told to them by their local mullahs.

THIS is why I believe we are less safe. The war has been mismanaged and ill-planned.




That's good to hear, there are Americans that don't feel that way and with that being said I retract the egotistical disgrace comment. (I know, you shrugged it off anyway, I don't usually take others insults too seriously either)

'salright. I usually try not to respond in kind, but am just as human as the next guy sometimes.



Future as in starting when? I don't see how what you perceived as the present administrations failures equals an increased number of attacks against us on our own soil. That hasn't been the case to this point so the burden of proving that point with something resembling sensible facts rests with you.

Further terrorist attacks on American soil are a 100% inevitability. Ask that of any terrorism expert.

That means the future as in starting yesterday. Since they are unavoidable, we can only judge our foreign policy by the metric of whether it creates more or fewer people who are motivated to carry out those attacks and whether it will lead to better or worse overall training for those people, making them more or less effective at whatever it is they will do.

These are not immutable incontivertable laws of physics, but they are reasonable assumptions with reasonable conclusions with as much evidence as possible weighed in making them. New evidence may produce new conclusions, but based on what we know now, that's what I think.

[RandomGuy]

This means that invading Afghanistan was a very good thing, as it eliminated a lot of training bases and no few number of fanatics, with very little PR damage.

The same can't be said of Iraq.

Sudan would have been a better place to start, in my opinion.

[RandomGuy]

While I have your attention:

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24908&page=5

I sent you a message about this, but don't think you read it. See post #121

(the "pics you won't see on TV thread")

[SpursWoman]

Heh, you would have to read through the accounting standards board (FASB) ruling on goodwill (SFAS #142) first and then apply that to the case "A & B Companies: Impairment of Goodwill" from the August 2004 issue of "Issues in Accounting Education"

http://www.fasb.org/pdf/fas142.pdf

Be warned it is a pdf file 110 pages long, and um, rather technical. And by technical, I mean icky. :shootme



Been there, done that. "Icky" isn't the word I would have used. :wow ;)

[RandomGuy]

Been there, done that. "Icky" isn't the word I would have used. :wow ;)


I say "icky" more for humorous effect. Believe it or not, I really like this stuff and find it all interesting. Not that I find it an easy read, but it is my cup 'o tea.
:nerd

[RandomGuy]

Here's another good one to bump.