RIP GOAT ALI

[Ghazi]

USA wanted Iraq to win the war. It didnt happen. cause we staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacked USA and Israel fuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked

[Ghazi]

USA is 1-2 in Iraq wars lifetime :lol ... :lol USA cant even win a war against IrQ these

[midnightpulp]

USA wanted Iraq to win the war. It didnt happen. cause we staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacked USA and Israel fuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked

All the Western Powers did. Hell, most of the World did. I don't think necessarily for any long term political reason, but because Saddam was a big arms buyer, so there was a lot of profit to be made.


The know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained by Saddam's regime from foreign sources.[23] Most precursors for chemical weapons production came from Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and West Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics, sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. Singapore-based firm Kim Al-Khaleej, affiliated to the United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.[24] Dieter Backfisch, managing director of West German company Karl Kolb GmbH, was quoted by saying in 1989 that "for people in Germany poison gas is something quite terrible, but this does not worry customers abroad."[23]

I'm simply busting the retarded moonbat myth that WE alone armed him. Like I said, I would estimate 1-5%

And see bolded. I hope you decry your fellow Musilims here.

[midnightpulp]

USA is 1-2 in Iraq wars lifetime :lol ... :lol USA cant even win a war against IrQ these

Yeah, what did it take, a couple of hours to oust Saddam and his regime in 2003? We occupied the country and installed a leader of our choosing. That means War=Won. The rest is just cleaning up insurgent cockroaches.

Iraq 1 was also won basically overnight.

That said, I was against the Iraq War, but to say we lost it is complete bullshit.

[Ball Buster]

:lol Faggots that live in the United States, that passionately hate the United States
:lol Having to leave your home country because of terrible incompetence and corruption
:lol Shitting on the U.S. for it's terrible incompetence and corruption

[midnightpulp]

:lol Faggots that live in the United States, that passionately hate the United States
:lol Having to leave your home country because of terrible incompetence and corruption
:lol Shitting on the U.S. for it's terrible incompetence and corruption

Thing is we're just held to a much, much ridiculously higher moral standard than the rest of the world. We're like the Lebron James of geopolitics.

Take my "Arming Iraq" example.

In arming Saddam, we're a blip on the radar. As proven, a German company built his chemical weapons plant, and thereafter companies from Singapore, the Netherlands, Egypt, and West Germany were the primary suppliers of agents that were used to gas the Kurds, Bombs that were dropped by Russian and French planes.

But "Murka armed Saddam."

Or take the Snowden whisteblowing. He even stated that the British Intelligence agency GCHQ spies on its citizens far more comprehensively than the US does, but every headline after the leak read, "Snowden reveals spying on citizens by US!" No mention of the GCHQ or Canada or Australia or NZ, whose agencies were all implicated.

I know our hands are dirty, I just rally against the rest of the world finger pointing when their own hands are covered in fuckin' mud.

[apalisoc_9]

Thing is we're just held to a much, much ridiculously higher moral standard than the rest of the world. We're like the Lebron James of geopolitics.

Take my "Arming Iraq" example.

In arming Saddam, we're a blip on the radar. As proven, a German company built his chemical weapons plant, and thereafter companies from Singapore, the Netherlands, Egypt, and West Germany were the primary suppliers of agents that were used to gas the Kurds, Bombs that were dropped by Russian and French planes.

But "Murka armed Saddam."

Or take the Snowden whisteblowing. He even stated that the British Intelligence agency GCHQ spies on its citizens far more comprehensively than the US does, but every headline after the leak read, "Snowden reveals spying on citizens by US!" No mention of the GCHQ or Canada or Australia or NZ, whose agencies were all implicated.

I know our hands are dirty, I just rally against the rest of the world finger pointing when their own hands are covered in fuckin' mud.

Thats delusional.

The US isnt held ina higher moral standard. They dont have one. Thats the benefit of being the powerhouse and a PR powerhouse.

How many people have the US killed in the name of collateral damage? More than anyone in the world. More than any terrorist group that is starioned in their country fighting against the US, more than russia, more than china, more than iran, more than israel, more than North Korea.

More innocent have died with American BS wars than all of those mentioned combined.

The US have basically been on murder spree after WW2.

[spurraider21]

Thats delusional.

The US isnt held ina higher moral standard. They dont have one. Thats the benefit of being the powerhouse and a PR powerhouse.

How many people have the US killed in the name of collateral damage? More than anyone in the world. More than any terrorist group that is starioned in their country fighting against the US, more than russia, more than china, more than iran, more than israel, more than North Korea.

More innocent have died with American BS wars than all of those mentioned combined.
more than china? :lol

[midnightpulp]

Thats delusional.

The US isnt held ina higher moral standard. They dont have one. Thats the benefit of being the powerhouse and a PR powerhouse.

How many people have the US killed in the name of collateral damage? More than anyone in the world. More than any terrorist group that is starioned in their country fighting against the US, more than russia, more than china, more than iran, more than israel, more than North Korea.

More innocent have died with American BS wars than all of those mentioned combined.

The US have basically been on murder spree after WW2.

You're the one who is fuckin' delusional.

North Korea starves, kills, and enslaves its own people, to the count of untold millions while the Kim family lives in fuckin' luxury.

Yeah, defending OUR ALLY the South Koreans against their war of aggression was a "BS War." I guess South Koreans and the collateral damage they suffered don't count because "ebil Murka" was on their side.

Vietnam? Yeah, Ho Chi Minh was leading such a peaceful socialist society in the North that over 800K citizens fled into the South after he immediately took power, with another 2 total million fleeing to the US and Europe. And it was the NVA who invaded, wanting to turn the entire country Communist. Yeah, defending the South Vietnamese was a BS war. South Vietnamese people don't count, I suppose.

Iraq 1? Saddam invaded Kuwait, using weapons (as proven) supplied by your tolerant and friendly Europeans. So the Kuwaitis don't count?

Iraq 2? Indeed started on false pretenses, but is anyone mourning the loss of Saddam?

Again, "follow the money."

https://www.quandl.com/data/SGE/IRQGPCP-Iraq-GDP-per-capita-PPP.png?dataset%5Bcollapse%5D=monthly&dataset%5Bgraph_title%5D=GDP+per+Capita+%28PPP%29+-+Iraq&dataset%5Bheight%5D=300&dataset%5Bwidth%5D=450

Yeah, Iraq was just flourishing under the European armed Saddam Hussein.

I also guess we should've stayed out of Bosnia and let Milosevic complete his genocidal goals. Yeah, that conflict was also "BS."

You're also welcome for the US liberating the Philippines from the Japanese. Yeah, the Japanese treated your people exceptionally, so I guess defeating them there was also "BS."

"But you dropped bombs on them :cry"

I can't argue with the results.

Japan before the bomb:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Chinese_to_be_beheaded_in_Nanking_Massacre.jpg

Japan after:

http://wallpaperswa.com/thumbnails/detail/20121022/cityscapes%20architecture%20urban%20buildings%20to wn%20skyscrapers%20modern%201920x1080%20wallpaper_ wallpaperswa.com_37.jpg

Now, I'm not claiming we don't have blood on our hands, but we've protected our interests and allies with no worse violence than other historic superpowers, and since the US's hegemony, it is statistically the most peaceful time in human history.

[midnightpulp]

more than china? :lol

Apa is brainwashed. He takes the "millions of civilian casualties" statistic cited by non-reliable sources with no grains of salt.

The death toll from the Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Kim regimes checks in about 150 million. But yeah, it's the United States who is on the killing spree :lol

[midnightpulp]

The combined death toll of civilians for the battle of Manila was approximately 100,000 to 500,000, most of which was attributed to massacres by Japanese forces. Some historians, citing a higher civilian casualty rate for the entire battle, suggest that 100,000 to 500,000 died as a result of the Manila massacre on its own, exclusive of other causes

You're welcome, Apa.

[apalisoc_9]

You're the one who is fuckin' delusional.

North Korea starves, kills, and enslaves its own people, to the count of untold millions while the Kim family lives in fuckin' luxury.

Yeah, defending OUR ALLY the South Koreans against their war of aggression was a "BS War." I guess South Koreans and the collateral damage they suffered don't count because "ebil Murka" was on their side.

Vietnam? Yeah, Ho Chi Minh was leading such a peaceful socialist society in the North that over 800K citizens fled into the South after he immediately took power, with another 2 total million fleeing to the US and Europe. And it was the NVA who invaded, wanting to turn the entire country Communist. Yeah, defending the South Vietnamese was a BS war. South Vietnamese people don't count, I suppose.

Iraq 1? Saddam invaded Kuwait, using weapons (as proven) supplied by your tolerant and friendly Europeans. So the Kuwaitis don't count?

Iraq 2? Indeed started on false pretenses, but is anyone mourning the loss of Saddam?

Again, "follow the money."

https://www.quandl.com/data/SGE/IRQGPCP-Iraq-GDP-per-capita-PPP.png?dataset%5Bcollapse%5D=monthly&dataset%5Bgraph_title%5D=GDP+per+Capita+%28PPP%29+-+Iraq&dataset%5Bheight%5D=300&dataset%5Bwidth%5D=450

Yeah, Iraq was just flourishing under the European armed Saddam Hussein.

I also guess we should've stayed out of Bosnia and let Milosevic complete his genocidal goals. Yeah, that conflict was also "BS."

You're also welcome for the US liberating the Philippines from the Japanese. Yeah, the Japanese treated your people exceptionally, so I guess defeating them there was also "BS."

"But you dropped bombs on them :cry"

I can't argue with the results.

Japan before the bomb:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Chinese_to_be_beheaded_in_Nanking_Massacre.jpg

Japan after:

http://wallpaperswa.com/thumbnails/detail/20121022/cityscapes%20architecture%20urban%20buildings%20to wn%20skyscrapers%20modern%201920x1080%20wallpaper_ wallpaperswa.com_37.jpg

Now, I'm not claiming we don't have blood on our hands, but we've protected our interests and allies with no worse violence than other historic superpowers, and since the US's hegemony, it is statistically the most peaceful time in human history.

:lmao

Typical american narrative...we had to go to war and save the people( that didnt want to be saved our be put in war)

Vietnam was in a worse situation after the war and so is Iraq.

Fact of the matter is that these puppet governments havent done any good to its people. If you're going murder civilians in the name of saving them, you better fucking come up with shit to help it.

Posting a japanese beahing to prove a point :lmao

I'm also clearly talking about post 50's when the US started to become the clear international powerhouse...Russian had nothing since they actuallynhad millions die in ww2.

Every BS fake lie war that resulted in millions dying and displaced by the US was never to protect the civilians but rather is its interest. The turn a blind eye on killers if it serves them. Dont be delusional

[midnightpulp]

:lmao

Typical american narrative...we had to go to war and save the people( that didnt want to be saved our be put in war)

Vietnam was in a worse situation after the war and so is Iraq.

Fact of the matter is that these puppet governments havent done any good to its people. If you're going murder civilians in the name of saving them, you better fucking come up with shit to help it.

Posting a japanese beahing to prove a point :lmao

I'm also clearly talking about post 50's when the US started to become the clear international powerhouse...Russian had nothing since they actuallynhad millions die in ww2.

Every BS fake lie war that resulted in millions dying and displaced by the US was never to protect the civilians but rather is its interest. The turn a blind eye on killers if it serves them. Dont be delusional

Nice citation of sources.

"W-We really didn't want to be saved from the Japanese who were slaughtering us by the hundreds of thousands. I swear!"

Yeah, um, Vietnam obviously was in worse shape after the war, since Ho Chi Minh was able to fully seize power across the country. If those "people didn't need saving," then why did millions flee instead of live in his regime?

Oh, so the people who Milosevic was massacring didn't need saving, either?

Again, you're welcome.

[apalisoc_9]

Nice citation of sources.

"W-We really didn't want to be saved from the Japanese who were slaughtering us by the hundreds of thousands. I swear!"

Yeah, um, Vietnam obviously was in worse shape after the war, since Ho Chi Minh was able to fully seize power across the country. If those "people didn't need saving," then why did millions flee instead of live in his regime?

Oh, so the people who Milosevic was massacring didn't need saving, either?

Again, you're welcome.

No thank you at all. Iraq and Vietnam is in a worse situation. Run by US puppets.

The Serbs Murederd and attempted Bosnian genocide. They were muzzies so its ok to kill them and the croats were nothing...if the US really wanted to serve other peoples interest they would have had a more aggressive approach against the Genocidal serbs..instead thousands possibly Millions of Boniaks and Croats died...and your average american doesnt even know about these kind of shit.

That was a real massacre post 60s that the us didnt give a shit about. It was the world that had millseviv on the ropes...but the deed has been done ( allowed to be done) instead...the war the us chooses to go are fake wars with fake nuclear warheads and Bs propaganda.

[K...]

No thank you at all. Iraq and Vietnam is in a worse situation. Run by US puppets.

The Serbs Murederd and attempted Bosnian genocide. They were muzzies so its ok to kill them and the croats were nothing...if the US really wanted to serve other peoples interest they would have had a more aggressive approach against the Genocidal serbs..instead thousands possibly Millions of Boniaks and Croats died...and your average american doesnt even know about these kind of shit.

That was a real massacre post 60s that the us didnt give a shit about. It was the world that had millseviv on the ropes...but the deed has been done ( allowed to be done) instead...the war the us chooses to go are fake wars with fake nuclear warheads and Bs propaganda.

Uh, you're acting like we killed the prophets ninth successor or something and caused the Sunni Shiite split. Iraq sucks because we're fighting regional powerhouse Iran. Libya sucks because al aqueda.

You know how the spurs have had random scrubs try to pride themselves against us? That's every war we fight, people come to smash us.





Yes, the us did tons of shitty things. But it's not like it wasn't business as usual.


Who the fuck cares about Serbs? We show up late to lots of wars where there's nothing to fight for. Syria isn't our client state. Sudan isn't. Libya isn't. Iraq is. But Iraq was about one man fucking up. George gave Iraq to Iran. Epic self own by America.

[K...]

Also? Who is the puppet in Iraq? It's been Iran all the way


Same with Afghanistan, that's the ISI. These strongmen you cite is out of fashion in America. We do other things now like corporate pressure, sanctions, etc. They kicked out Bush's Georgian lackey pretty quickly. I can't think of another obvious modern U.S. shill in power anywhere

[K...]

The Serbs Murederd and attempted Bosnian genocide. They were muzzies so its ok to kill them and the croats were nothing...if the US really wanted to serve other peoples interest they would have had a more aggressive approach against the Genocidal serbs..instead thousands possibly Millions of Boniaks and Croats died...and your average american doesnt even know about these kind of shit.


Lmao and in 2016 we won't even bomb Assad. Even before Russian jets came. Apo is just silly sometimes. The U.S. Has obviously not been perfect, but it's not the cause of every problem in the world (we are the leading historical carbon producer though :(

[midnightpulp]

No thank you at all. Iraq and Vietnam is in a worse situation. Run by US puppets.

The Serbs Murederd and attempted Bosnian genocide. They were muzzies so its ok to kill them and the croats were nothing...if the US really wanted to serve other peoples interest they would have had a more aggressive approach against the Genocidal serbs..instead thousands possibly Millions of Boniaks and Croats died...and your average american doesnt even know about these kind of shit.

That was a real massacre post 60s that the us didnt give a shit about. It was the world that had millseviv on the ropes...but the deed has been done ( allowed to be done) instead...the war the us chooses to go are fake wars with fake nuclear warheads and Bs propaganda.

How the fuck was Ho Chi Minh a US "puppet?" :lol Furthermore, we imposed sanctions on the country for 20 years following the war. You really don't know what you're talking about.

I like to hear a reasonable argument that the US were on the wrong moral side during the Vietnam War.

Timeline of events:

- Ho Chi Minh's communist forces drive out the French in the North. During this conflict, the Viet Minh killed assassinated 100,000 civilians. This wasn't "collateral damage," but straight murder.

- Ho Chi Minh confiscates land and wantonly carries out assassinations:


More than 172,000 people died during the North Vietnam campaign after being classified as landowners and wealthy farmers, official records of the time show.

- There's a mass exodus from the North and the subsequent communist controlled Vietnam. An exodus that continued for 45 years (1950-1995).


The number of boat people leaving Vietnam and arriving safely in another country totaled almost 800,000 between 1975 and 1995.


The boat people comprised only part of the Vietnamese resettled abroad from 1975 until the end of the twentieth century. A total of more than 1.6 million Vietnamese were resettled between 1975 and 1997.

- US doesn't like commies, domino theory, Tonkin, etc, so we fly in and assist the South (who were being PERSECUTED).

Tell me with a straight face we were the "bad guy" in this instance?

And if you think we were the bad guy in the Korean War, then it's obvious you're simply an irrational anti-American. I know it's cool and hip to be one, though.

If Iraq is in a worse situation, how come the numbers don't show it?

http://www.middleeasteye.net/sites/default/files/styles/wysiwyg_large/public/images/Iraq_Graph_01.jpg

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/farewell-growth-iraq-unit-when-1250653765

Even with the ISIS situation affecting the economy there, Iraq is still projected to economically grow over the next few years.

But yeah, they were better off under Saddam concentrating the wealth in his family's hands :lol

So we hate Saddam when he's an ally of the US, but justify his existence when he's an enemy?

Yeah, you're simply anti-American no matter what.

Also, I'm not taking credit for Serbia. It was a full NATO operation. I just provided it as an example of a "non-BS war."

[midnightpulp]

Lmao and in 2016 we won't even bomb Assad. Even before Russian jets came. Apo is just silly sometimes. The U.S. Has obviously not been perfect, but it's not the cause of every problem in the world (we are the leading historical carbon producer though :(

It's cause we're on the top. The Lakers of the modern era, so the rest of the world hates us for irrational reasons and places moral fault on us for everything that goes wrong in the world in the hopes of knocking us down a peg.

I mean, Apa is here calling the Korean War a "BS War." :lol

Let's see:

- Soviet and Chinese backed North Korean military invades South Korea, decimating them to the point where the North nearly controls the entire country. See:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Korean_war_1950-1953.gif

- The US joins, and helps the South drive the North back.

- Back and forth for a few years, until a stalemate is reached and the DMZ is drawn.

Apa: "Every country the US has defended in its BS wars is worse off."

Yeah, okay.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/TCdViAeIYDI/AAAAAAAAAUk/vD37hJxpNg8/s1600/north.jpg

[whitemamba]

I know about the Riegle report. I did understate how many US companies were involved, but like I said, we basically sold him a few more rounds of ammunition after the friendly and enlightened Germans built his plant.

I am willing to concede based on your research (for now) that we did not exactly fully arm him and build him up. Although I do believe a government secret such as knowing about and possibly funding chemical weapons to a dictator is not exactly going to get leaked. Especially for how vocal we are against it, i.e. "Red Line" in Syria. As for your media claim, whether its CNN or FOXNews or BBC that you follow, they are all agenda driven, its all about ratings and points. Thus meaning small market media are usually the truthful ones. So attacking me by saying i read something else besides the mainstream is a bit immature and silly imho. My question to you is this, how can we know about and support something like this? Isn't knowing about it, and allowing it just as bad as paying for it?

[whitemamba]

It's cause we're on the top. The Lakers of the modern era, so the rest of the world hates us for irrational reasons and places moral fault on us for everything that goes wrong in the world in the hopes of knocking us down a peg.

I mean, Apa is here calling the Korean War a "BS War." :lol

Let's see:

- Soviet and Chinese backed North Korean military invades South Korea, decimating them to the point where the North nearly controls the entire country. See:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Korean_war_1950-1953.gif

- The US joins, and helps the South drive the North back.

- Back and forth for a few years, until a stalemate is reached and the DMZ is drawn.

Apa: "Every country the US has defended in its BS wars is worse off."

Yeah, okay.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_-EMpadQx4hM/TCdViAeIYDI/AAAAAAAAAUk/vD37hJxpNg8/s1600/north.jpg

The world hates the US because we since the modern military age, have started meaningless wars, constantly trying to overthrow governments for the sake of "democracy", lying and causing the world economic crisis. You really need to read more mid.

[midnightpulp]

I am willing to concede based on your research (for now) that we did not exactly fully arm him and build him up. Although I do believe a government secret such as knowing about and possibly funding chemical weapons to a dictator is not exactly going to get leaked. Especially for how vocal we are against it, i.e. "Red Line" in Syria. As for your media claim, whether its CNN or FOXNews or BBC that you follow, they are all agenda driven, its all about ratings and points. Thus meaning small market media are usually the truthful ones. So attacking me by saying i read something else besides the mainstream is a bit immature and silly imho. My question to you is this, how can we know about and support something like this? Isn't knowing about it, and allowing it just as bad as paying for it?

Is knowing about a murder just as bad as murdering someone?

No.

But like I said, we're not morally "clean" in that regard, since American companies did sell Saddam agents, but it's a huge stretch to claim that we "armed" him, which suggests his military capability was non-existent until Uncle Sam helped out.

I've showed you photo ops dated from the early 70s of Chirac and Hussein hanging out, one even at a nuclear facility. It's a stone cold fact that, other than the USSR, France sold him most of his conventional weapons. Then in the late 70's, a German firm built his chemical weapons plant. And then the bank was open for defense contractors. Here's who sold Saddam the most:


The know-how and material for developing chemical weapons were obtained by Saddam's regime from foreign sources.[23] Most precursors for chemical weapons production came from Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and West Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics, sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. Singapore-based firm Kim Al-Khaleej, affiliated to the United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.[24] Dieter Backfisch, managing director of West German company Karl Kolb GmbH, was quoted by saying in 1989 that "for people in Germany poison gas is something quite terrible, but this does not worry customers abroad."

So why do you place the primary moral blame on us?

As for media bias, it's all agenda driven. I really hope you don't think supposed small market outlets like Russia Today are "truthful," when it's basically the media arm of the Kremlin. Or Rense or Alternet, which are run by far-far-left moonbats. Or Breitbert, which is the opposite of Rense and Alternet. That's why I try to follow the money in this regard.

[midnightpulp]

The world hates the US because we since the modern military age, have started meaningless wars, constantly trying to overthrow governments for the sake of "democracy", lying and causing the world economic crisis. You really need to read more mid.

I think you need to read more. You seem to only consider the superficial reality of these situations ("The US funded a coup against Allende in Chile, who the people wanted. The US is evil!") without digging deeper into the context.

Now, I'm not justifying everything the United States does (I was fervently against Iraq 2, and think Bush and all of his cronies should be in jail. And I'm against the War on Terror, since I think the end result of that will just create more terrorists. I think terror should be fought like the FBI fought the mafia. Clandestine, using intel, arrest/assassinate key figures and leaders, etc), but these situations aren't as black-and-white as you make them seem, and each side can mount a convincing argument for their position.

[Ghazi]

USA won the actual 2nd Gulf War in a matter of 3 weeks but the aftermath was a complete disaster, IMO... they underestimated the guerilla tactics of insurgents and the draining effect of occupying a country thousands of miles away... It was just poorly planned as far as the long term. to me, that is a lost war when the major objectives are not accomplished

[Ghazi]

I can only speak for Iran in that the beloved homeland is justified in hating Americas policies...1953, 25 years of a dictator, support for Saddam in Iraq war, sanctions and major media bias... a book of crimes by UsA against Iran

[K...]

I can only speak for Iran in that the beloved homeland is justified in hating Americas policies...1953, 25 years of a dictator, support for Saddam in Iraq war, sanctions and major media bias... a book of crimes by UsA against Iran

And yet once this supreme leader dies the memories of the revolution are gone (ok they'll replace him with another old hardliner but they'll run out soon). Iran will have to modernize or be dragged into the Arabs lost century (no oil demand, global warming, no security, no strong Arab leadership).

[whitemamba]

Is knowing about a murder just as bad as murdering someone?

No.

But like I said, we're not morally "clean" in that regard, since American companies did sell Saddam agents, but it's a huge stretch to claim that we "armed" him, which suggests his military capability was non-existent until Uncle Sam helped out.

I've showed you photo ops dated from the early 70s of Chirac and Hussein hanging out, one even at a nuclear facility. It's a stone cold fact that, other than the USSR, France sold him most of his conventional weapons. Then in the late 70's, a German firm built his chemical weapons plant. And then the bank was open for defense contractors. Here's who sold Saddam the most:



So why do you place the primary moral blame on us?

As for media bias, it's all agenda driven. I really hope you don't think supposed small market outlets like Russia Today are "truthful," when it's basically the media arm of the Kremlin. Or Rense or Alternet, which are run by far-far-left moonbats. Or Breitbert, which is the opposite of Rense and Alternet. That's why I try to follow the money in this regard.

In my opinion it's primarily on us because we are so used to playing big brother and enforcing the world. We always seem to be in the spotlight.We need to set a better example. Following the constitution would be a good start. I think US politics need a major change. This government is not run for Americans , it's fun for Israelis if you ask me. I could give two shits about the Palestinian conflict, I'm talking inside the US.

[whitemamba]

I think you need to read more. You seem to only consider the superficial reality of these situations ("The US funded a coup against Allende in Chile, who the people wanted. The US is evil!") without digging deeper into the context.

Now, I'm not justifying everything the United States does (I was fervently against Iraq 2, and think Bush and all of his cronies should be in jail. And I'm against the War on Terror, since I think the end result of that will just create more terrorists. I think terror should be fought like the FBI fought the mafia. Clandestine, using intel, arrest/assassinate key figures and leaders, etc), but these situations aren't as black-and-white as you make them seem, and each side can mount a convincing argument for their position.
i try to I really do. I completely agree with what you said , but mine does further , I genuinely don't believe we should of been in any of these wars , not even the Cuban missile crisis with the soviets , not even WW1. You nailed it when you said we create more terrorists. I actually think we have been doing that and continue to do that to make majority of the population constantly fearful. We always need a boogie man, and a "terrorist" is perfect it a never ending image , they can constantly keep doing for ever. I mean can you actually get me to believe Bin Laden was actually killed by the US? Lol we threw him into the ocean. As for RUSSIAN TODAY, it's the same shit as CNN or FOX, but worse it's apparently completely run by the government, VICE did an episode on it. From time to time they drop a truth bomb though.

[midnightpulp]

In my opinion it's primarily on us because we are so used to playing big brother and enforcing the world. We always seem to be in the spotlight.We need to set a better example. Following the constitution would be a good start. I think US politics need a major change. This government is not run for Americans , it's fun for Israelis if you ask me. I could give two shits about the Palestinian conflict, I'm talking inside the US.

I don't disagree with that. I'm a non-interventionist who believes in a "National Defense," not a "National Offense," so that means I'm in favor of closing down the 200 or whatever bases around the world. Most of those bases are holdovers from World War 2 and the Cold War. Our allies in Europe are fully capable of defending themselves now. I'd rather put those bases in struggling US cities that could use an economic boost. I'm from a town that went from flourishing to shit-hole overnight because a base closed (and with it, 11,000 jobs).

I'm also tired of babysitting Israel. That whole conflict is none of our business. Let them sort it out.

But even though I'm a non-interventionist, I don't automatically believe we were always in the "moral wrong" during our conflicts. And my biggest irk is when "the rest of the world" points self-righteous fingers at us (especially those from Europe) when their hands our covered with as much, if not, more blood. For example, I bet the average Dutch citizen doesn't know firms in their country sold Saddam over 4000 tons of chemicals. Or the average German knowing that they pretty much built Saddam's chemical weapons programs.

Ask them, and it's "Murkadidit." It just pisses me off. Then they go as far to denigrate our Vietnam War (we were on the right side) and Korean War (we were on the right side) efforts. It's an insult to those who died.

It's a double-standard. After the attacks in France, the French turned on the jets and bombed the fuck out of ISIS. And I'm sure "innocents" were killed in those bombing runs. But the world cheered. Terrorists fly planes into our buildings, killing 3000 of not just Americans, but from people all around the world, our intelligence leads us to the Taliban. We go bomb, and yet we're decried as war criminals.

[whitemamba]

I don't disagree with that. I'm a non-interventionist who believes in a "National Defense," not a "National Offense," so that means I'm in favor of closing down the 200 or whatever bases around the world. Most of those bases are holdovers from World War 2 and the Cold War. Our allies in Europe are fully capable of defending themselves now. I'd rather put those bases in struggling US cities that could use an economic boost. I'm from a town that went from flourishing to shit-hole overnight because a base closed (and with it, 11,000 jobs).

I'm also tired of babysitting Israel. That whole conflict is none of our business. Let them sort it out.

But even though I'm a non-interventionist, I don't automatically believe we were always in the "moral wrong" during our conflicts. And my biggest irk is when "the rest of the world" points self-righteous fingers at us (especially those from Europe) when their hands our covered with as much, if not, more blood. For example, I bet the average Dutch citizen doesn't know firms in their country sold Saddam over 4000 tons of chemicals. Or the average German knowing that they pretty much built Saddam's chemical weapons programs.

Ask them, and it's "Murkadidit." It just pisses me off. Then they go as far to denigrate our Vietnam War (we were on the right side) and Korean War (we were on the right side) efforts. It's an insult to those who died.

It's a double-standard. After the attacks in France, the French turned on the jets and bombed the fuck out of ISIS. And I'm sure "innocents" were killed in those bombing runs. But the world cheered. Terrorists fly planes into our buildings, killing 3000 of not just Americans, but from people all around the world, our intelligence leads us to the Taliban. We go bomb, and yet we're decried as war criminals.

This post is gold. Everything is money, my question to you is how do we get back to our founding fathers ways?

[midnightpulp]

i try to I really do. I completely agree with what you said , but mine does further , I genuinely don't believe we should of been in any of these wars , not even the Cuban missile crisis with the soviets , not even WW1. You nailed it when you said we create more terrorists. I actually think we have been doing that and continue to do that to make majority of the population constantly fearful. We always need a boogie man, and a "terrorist" is perfect it a never ending image , they can constantly keep doing for ever. I mean can you actually get me to believe Bin Laden was actually killed by the US? Lol we threw him into the ocean. As for RUSSIAN TODAY, it's the same shit as CNN or FOX, but worse it's apparently completely run by the government, VICE did an episode on it. From time to time they drop a truth bomb though.

We were attacked in both WWI and WWII, though. German U-Boats were targeting ocean liners, sinking the Lusitania, which claimed 130 American lives. Still, Wilson want to keep out the war, but the UK really turned up their PR campaign stateside and we were eventually "guilted" into joining the effort. That said, I would probably agree we should've stayed out WWI, but the UK was the power at the time, our greatest ally, so we had to join to "keep them happy."

And obviously Pearl Harbor in the 2nd instance.

As for Korea, I don't know. I'm not sure Korea falling into Soviet hands (Stalin wanted Korea) would've been the best thing. Stalin was a maniac and not some peaceful Marxist who was for "the people." What happens if Stalin captured Korea? Would Japan be next on his radar?

That's what I'm saying, none of these situations are ever black-and-white with obvious solutions.

[midnightpulp]

This post is gold. Everything is money, my question to you is how do we get back to our founding fathers ways?

Merciless checks-and-balances on our government. I don't think there should be "terms," a political leader should be in danger of losing his position at any time, just like an employee at a regular job.

Non-Interventionist foreign policy. Let the rest-of-world sort their own shit out.

[whitemamba]

We were attacked in both WWI and WWII, though. German U-Boats were targeting ocean liners, sinking the Lusitania, which claimed 130 American lives. Still, Wilson want to keep out the war, but the UK really turned up their PR campaign stateside and we were eventually "guilted" into joining the effort. That said, I would probably agree we should've stayed out WWI, but the UK was the power at the time, our greatest ally, so we had to join to "keep them happy."

And obviously Pearl Harbor in the 2nd instance.

As for Korea, I don't know. I'm not sure Korea falling into Soviet hands (Stalin wanted Korea) would've been the best thing. Stalin was a maniac and some peaceful Marxist who was for "the people." What happens if Stalin captured Korea? Would Japan be next on his radar?

That's what I'm saying, none of these situations are ever black-and-white with obvious solutions.
You don't buy those rumors about Pearl Harbor ? We knew the attack was coming but purposely did nothing to get us into the war? I think Wolfowitz said in the project for a new American century, "we need another Pearl Harbor " that's for 9/11 obviously but if we did that recently why wouldn't we do it in the past? I just find it so hard to believe that we couldn't see a fucking army of airplanes coming towards one of our biggest bases. Blows my mind away. Immediately after that tragedy we jumped right in with full public support, sound familiar ? I feel bad for all those lives lost, I genuinely do. The government I feel doesn't value our soldiers.

[whitemamba]

Merciless checks-and-balances on our government. I don't think there should be "terms," a political leader should be in danger of losing his position at any time, just like an employee at a regular job.

Non-Interventionist foreign policy. Let the rest-of-world sort their own shit out.

basically a Ron Paul style foreign policy?

[midnightpulp]

You don't buy those rumors about Pearl Harbor ? We knew the attack was coming but purposely did nothing to get us into the war? I think Wolfowitz said in the project for a new American century, "we need another Pearl Harbor " that's for 9/11 obviously but if we did that recently why wouldn't we do it in the past? I just find it so hard to believe that we couldn't see a fucking army of airplanes coming towards one of our biggest bases. Blows my mind away. Immediately after that tragedy we jumped right in with full public support, sound familiar ? I feel bad for all those lives lost, I genuinely do. The government I feel doesn't value our soldiers.

Until confirmed, they are just rumors. Also, if they knew the attack was coming then that means Japan was obviously an enemy who probably would've succeeded at some point by either attacking a domestic target or attacking US ships in open water. Another rumor is that Churchill and Co. withheld intelligence of the attack so that Japan would succeed and thus bait us into the war (this is another reason European self-righteousness pisses me off to no end. We were dragged/baited into the two most violent wars in history by European bullshit).

I guess until we have definitive evidence, we have to take the "official truth" at face value. But ideally, I would've preferred we support our European allies against the Nazis with money and manufacturing rather than a commitment of ground forces.

[whitemamba]

Until confirmed, they are just rumors. Also, if they knew the attack was coming then that means Japan was obviously an enemy who probably would've succeeded at some point by either attacking a domestic target or attacking US ships in open water. Another rumor is that Churchill and Co. withheld intelligence of the attack so that Japan would succeed and thus bait us into the war (this is another reason European self-righteousness pisses me off to no end. We were dragged/baited into the two most violent wars in history by European bullshit).

I guess until we have definitive evidence, we have to take the "official truth" at face value. But ideally, I would've preferred we support our European allies against the Nazis with money and manufacturing rather than a commitment of ground forces.

Fair enough. But I mean radars , technology etc.. How do we miss a fleet , it just baffles me.

[DMC]

Until confirmed, they are just rumors. Also, if they knew the attack was coming then that means Japan was obviously an enemy who probably would've succeeded at some point by either attacking a domestic target or attacking US ships in open water. Another rumor is that Churchill and Co. withheld intelligence of the attack so that Japan would succeed and thus bait us into the war (this is another reason European self-righteousness pisses me off to no end. We were dragged/baited into the two most violent wars in history by European bullshit).

I guess until we have definitive evidence, we have to take the "official truth" at face value. But ideally, I would've preferred we support our European allies against the Nazis with money and manufacturing rather than a commitment of ground forces.

Also there's a slippery slope (no pun intended) here. If we knew the Japs were coming, they knew we knew but came anyhow so were they complicit? Was it a collusion?


That's how conspiracy theories fail. The theorist gives one party unrealistic ability and denies it to anyone else. 9/11, for example... if the government was in on it, then we're to believe that information is only ever leaked when it's for a purpose that suits the government, that our government with all its failures has futuristic understanding and abilities where clandestine information is concerned. As if a group of people could go in and plant explosives, another group could fly in planes, and yet no one ever came forward to leak the information.

All this pulled off under the everlasting veil of secrecy, but the POTUS can't cum on an interns dress without the world finding out.

Right.

Sounds like too much free time for the theorists.

[midnightpulp]

Also there's a slippery slope (no pun intended) here. If we knew the Japs were coming, they knew we knew but came anyhow so were they complicit? Was it a collusion?


That's how conspiracy theories fail. The theorist gives one party unrealistic ability and denies it to anyone else. 9/11, for example... if the government was in on it, then we're to believe that information is only ever leaked when it's for a purpose that suits the government, that our government with all its failures has futuristic understanding and abilities where clandestine information is concerned. As if a group of people could go in and plant explosives, another group could fly in planes, and yet no one ever came forward to leak the information.

All this pulled off under the everlasting veil of secrecy, but the POTUS can't cum on an interns dress without the world finding out.

Right.

Sounds like too much free time for the theorists.

:tu

[whitemamba]

Also there's a slippery slope (no pun intended) here. If we knew the Japs were coming, they knew we knew but came anyhow so were they complicit? Was it a collusion?


That's how conspiracy theories fail. The theorist gives one party unrealistic ability and denies it to anyone else. 9/11, for example... if the government was in on it, then we're to believe that information is only ever leaked when it's for a purpose that suits the government, that our government with all its failures has futuristic understanding and abilities where clandestine information is concerned. As if a group of people could go in and plant explosives, another group could fly in planes, and yet no one ever came forward to leak the information.

All this pulled off under the everlasting veil of secrecy, but the POTUS can't cum on an interns dress without the world finding out.

Right.

Sounds like too much free time for the theorists.

I dont think that made a difference, it was a suicide mission was it not? These crazy fuckers nose diving their planes into our military. Clearly they didn't give a shit, at least that's what it seems like, so it really did not matter, the result would of been the same. As for 9/11, they need to do an investigation on it again. I mean when the families of the victims are calling for it, that should be enough, there are a few unanswered questions that raise concern. I mean the fact that if it is even mentioned, people get ridiculed and called crazy? What kind of democracy is that? If the government has nothing to hide they should be willing. Which leads me to thinking about those dick Saudi's. How can we keep such a tight friendship with them when every supposed hijacker was from Saudi. Did they withhold intelligence?Why did we not punish them? Think about it. The FastTrack Visa program, this and that, we need answers.

[Ghazi]

Merciless checks-and-balances on our government. I don't think there should be "terms," a political leader should be in danger of losing his position at any time, just like an employee at a regular job.

Non-Interventionist foreign policy. Let the rest-of-world sort their own shit out.


USA would not be hated in the world if it adopted a non-interventionist policy. The problem is they intervene EVERYWHERE, literally every continent... and often times the results aren't good.

[apalisoc_9]

I hate the japanese, but mid trying to make a case against them in ww2 because nmy roots are there? :lol

Literly after the US kicked the japanese away..The Americans invaded the philippines policy so much so that ot avtually led to a mini war between the US and pinoys.

Everywhere the US goes they fuck the country up.

The only ones benefiting from a fucked up world is America.

[K...]

I hate the japanese, but mid trying to make a case against them in ww2 because nmy roots are there? :lol

Literly after the US kicked the japanese away..The Americans invaded the philippines policy so much so that ot avtually led to a mini war between the US and pinoys.

Everywhere the US goes they fuck the country up.

The only ones benefiting from a fucked up world is America.

Oh cmon, the Philippines never were anything special and if we hadn't dicked u, Japan would have. China would have. Asia is just as warmongering as Europe and peace there is temporary.

The US isn't about nation building. It was about kicking the Communist state to death. That required us to punish the small countries who tried to play it two ways. Since the defeat of Russia , us power had opened up the world. The post war order doesn't benefit everyone, but it allows modernization. If you thought the corrupt Russians were going to invest in your country look at Cuba and what they got.


Y

[midnightpulp]

I hate the japanese, but mid trying to make a case against them in ww2 because nmy roots are there? :lol

Literly after the US kicked the japanese away..The Americans invaded the philippines policy so much so that ot avtually led to a mini war between the US and pinoys.

Everywhere the US goes they fuck the country up.

The only ones benefiting from a fucked up world is America.

That isn't true. We've occupied West Germany and Japan to the point where, if we wanted to honor our English ancestors, could've absorbed them into our "empire" and made them defacto US states. Japan was a war-mongering nation whose people worshipped the Emperor as a literal God. After we gave them a much needed punch in the mouth with the two atomic bombs, we occupied the country, built up their industry, imported goods from them, and started businesses there.

"So what. Japan is just a US puppet state."

:lol Yeah, that's why they basically singlehandedly killed the Detroit auto industry. They also killed our consumer electronics industry. Not out of spite or anything, but because they simply made better products for cheaper.

And you're really going to claim that South Korea is worse off? Or Vietnam? Fun fact about Vietnam: Their economy stagnated for 20 plus years after the Communist take over until they softened on hardline socialism and employed a market economy. Before the Communist takeover, South Vietnam was becoming something of an international economic player.


Pre-1965 period saw a rather rapid GDP growth rate of the South Vietnam's economy, accompanied by a reasonable CPI rise. The state budget of the Republic of Vietnam enjoyed a surplus in the early stage but soon turned into deficit from 1961. Investment remained strong, industry and agriculture generally retained a high gr

Economy of the Republic of Vietnam in this period proved to be progressive, however, political conflicts and unrests (armed conflicts between factions, continuous coup d'état, emergence of the Viet Cong) confined the efficiency of those policies.

Give me some reading on the US-Philippine situation, but it's a huge, huge stretch to claim you better off before the US intervened, when the Japanese were killing Filipinos for fun.

C'mon bro, you have to be fair. I know we have some blood on our hands, but compare us to the British Empire, the French Empire, the Nazis, the Soviets, and we're by far the most "benevolent" superpower in history.