It's official Tim retires

[Killakobe81]

Killa I need some advice about this chic...I think I'm losing it at times...so Heres the situation....I follow her on Instagram and Snap chat and she's always posting pictures of her and her man kissing, partying, and all hugged up....why should I care when I've been Fucking her non stop behind his back...and can get it anytime I want....but still the shit pissss me off to see....I don't like it because he thinks he's a bad ass white boy and all that shit...but she knows I'm a baller and so I hit that shit at least 1-2 times per week.. But still it pisses me off to see her with that clown and everyone always congratulating them and liking their pics on Instagram....man I be wanting to say something to that clown so bad but I keep quiet....I will say though these hoes out here are fucking scandalous like its no ones business... This is just a weird feeling for me....seems like my heart is kind of changing and I don't like it...I've always prided myself on being devoid of emotion when it comes to bitches..I've always been very diabolical so I'm getting scared for myself....I need to step back and remember these hoes aint loyal...if she will cheat with you she will cheat on you...use your fucking OG brain Kool....you already know this shit....it sucks being human at times....:bang

Time to get my Kobe on...:lol

I was in a a similar situation once ...it was before snapchat and IG though so I never saw things they did on the daily
But bad Ecuadorian I was hitting in my younger days (cars, hotel rooms my place even a place they kind of shared once ...I am not proud just being honest)
You should NOT care unless you do. I found myself starting to care as well it wasnt just the great sex we had great conversations loved to shop watching her try on clothes jeans, dresses shoes it did not matter ...huge turn on. I didnt even mine spending $ on her. Because she used to model the shit out of it and wear it well. But we were both starting relationships that were better "fits". her family were Jehova's witness and she ended up marrying a dude from her Kingdom hall. I had started to date my now wife and her family is Belizean like both my parents.
But back to your case. We crossed paths once at a Music festival and another time at a community event her church was doing.
She and I worked together and the workplace started to swirl with rumors that we were involved because the sexual tension was obvious.
Dude was a corny ass out of shape dude. And I could tell he was sizing me up and doing extra PDA to show me that was his.
I knew it was not and if I pushed hard enough I could have her ... but that shit bothered me. I wanted to say something to his ass too.
But I did not. What would I gain? I got her and had her at Lunch after work etc. HE got to play boyfriend on the weekend and go to family functions ...
Ids that what I wanted to be the trophy or the be the N.IG.G.A?
He was sprung and proposed and wifed her down. I think I could have broken that up but to what end?
IF i was not ready to wife her why stop him?
You already know what to do Kool I dont even need to say it ...

But to remind you throw on All eyez on me and skip to track #23 Some highlights:

you fuken with niccas that's insecure, watered down my shit is pure ...
When you met me you wouldnt let me an now you straight begging to sex me ...
you might THINk you happy with him but that's a lie ...so give this thug a try ...

You can ride out the spoke coke, to get your lobster and crab ... cause I all I got is conversation and a gang of stab ...
Im gonna listen when it hurts, I gonna hang out but never save, I leave them stunts up to Super dave

He wine and dine but me and you we wind and grind ...and when I'm ON the FIELD keep him on the sidelines ....

Id rather be your N_I_G_G_A so we can drunk and smoke weed all day (not a fan of weed or smoking)
It dont matter if your lonely baby, you need a thug in your life ...
Them BUSTAS aint loving you right ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SVCdkwK3TY

PAc and Richie Rich laid it out for you to play it out, Kool ...you know what to do.

[Killakobe81]

Oh and I forgot about the Pac's best line to the chick ...

Now it's time for the moment of truth ..I got u naked
... if it's ALL MINE let me know ...scream my name out (wont lie I did get off on making the ecudaorian do this that is how I got back at that dude in my head ...petty I know)
Do you want it fast or should I hit it slow?
Not to mention the multiple positions I inflict
A boss player, freaky motherfunker can addict ...

and Richie rich ...
It's on and poppin now you see what I was seeing ...
I aint going nowhere let's let that SUCKA STAY out there ...
while he stressed out and knock, I streched out the cock
Hold the boots and let a nicca execute ....

So much game on one track, kool. Hadnt played this in a while but your question popped this track in my head. fun times.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SVCdkwK3TY

[Koolaid_Man]

Thanks for posting this reminder Killa...I needed to hear it...


You can ride out the spoke coke, to get your lobster and crab ... cause I all I got is conversation and a gang of stab ...
Im gonna listen when it hurts, I gonna hang out but never save, I live them stunts up to Super dave

Sometimes playas get weak too....we need to be reminded who and what we are to fight against the lovey dovey feelings that can fuck with us on occasion...

Like Snoop said:
" So turn off the lights and close the door, but for what we don't love them hoes...so we gone smoke an ounce to this G's up Hoes down while you muthafuckers bounce to this."

Man I'm awake now:lol

[Killakobe81]

Thanks for posting this reminder Killa...I needed to hear it...


Sometimes playas get weak too....we need to be reminded who and what we are to fight against the lovey dovey feelings that can fuck with us on occasion...

Like Snoop said:

Man I'm awake now:lol

Dont get me wrong im no player ...at least not lime the homeys i grew up with ...there was a brief 2 year window ...and that was my anthem for that time in my life.
I was just saying if you dont want to wife her up ...
Enjoy the sex, check the feelings. We all are human and can catch feelings but if you not ready to choose her let her go.
Remember he is paying for it when she is giving it 2 you for free...
Its like leasing a Benz ...and after you done put some miles and excess wear and tear he gonna buy it used. While you lease a new Jaguar or Audi.

[Koolaid_Man]

Oh and I forgot about the Pac's best line to the chick ...

Now it's time for the moment of truth ..I got u naked
... if it's ALL MINE let me know ...scream my name out (wont lie I did get off on making the ecudaorian do this that is how I got back at that dude in my head ...petty I know)
Do you want it fast or should I hit it slow?
Not to mention the multiple positions I inflict
A boss player, freaky motherfunker can addict ...

and Richie rich ...
It's on and poppin now you see what I was seeing ...
I aint going nowhere let's let that SUCKA STAY out there ...
while he stressed out and knock, I streched out the cock
Hold the boots and let a nicca execute ....

So much game on one track, kool. Hadnt played this in a while but your question popped this track in my head. fun times.



Yeah the dude thinks he's a boss....I think she posts that shit to try and make me jealous because she wants me .....and I told her I'm not into being in a serious relationship.. But I do care for her....I can have her if I wanted to...she is a stunna bit also a slut...we had a falling out recently because I told her she was disgusting....:lol I know I should never say that to a bitch them nuclear words :lmao but I said it :lol any way I'm just gonna keep taxing that ass for as long as I feel it ...and move on....

[Killakobe81]

Yeah the dude thinks he's a boss....I think she posts that shit to try and make me jealous because she wants me .....and I told her I'm not into being in a serious relationship.. But I do care for her....I can have her if I wanted to...she is a stunna bit also a slut...we had a falling out recently because I told her she was disgusting....:lol I know I should never say that to a bitch them nuclear words :lmao but I said it :lol any way I'm just gonna keep taxing that ass for as long as I feel it ...and move on....

Enjoy ...

[cobbler]

Never knew Derek fisher is so high on your all time list.

Never implied Fisher was anywhere on my list. Read the post. Maybe after a few tries you might even comprehend it along with the context from where it came. :bang

[ambchang]

You are a tad sensitive today DPG but thanks for the insightful reply. My post simply states the truth. There is weight and merit that comes with defending a championship. It's extremely difficult to do. I could explain it in detail for you but I really don't think it would sink in so I choose not to waste my time. Simply put Jordan was a master at defending the throne. Timmy, not so much.

And I for one am a TD fan. Great and astonishing career! For me thought, not defending a single title is a blemish. If that's a sh*t opinion, then so be it.


Really? Well, it's first and foremost a team accomplishment. It's a team sport duh. As individuals you comprise the team therefore it also becomes an individual accomplishment. That's what being a team is about. Individuals accomplishing team goals. Being the team captain/leader brings more responsibility and with it, as always, more individual accolades/criticisms depending on the outcome. It's not rocket science.


Never implied Fisher was anywhere on my list. Read the post. Maybe after a few tries you might even comprehend it along with the context from where it came. :bang

Fisher was the captain of b2b champions. B2b was extremely difficult to do, and being the captain brings a lot of accolades. How many b2b champion captains were there in the history of the league.

Based on your criteria, fisher ranks high on your list.

You either were a horrible communicator earlier on or is trying to make things up as you go.

[cobbler]

Fisher was the captain of b2b champions. B2b was extremely difficult to do, and being the captain brings a lot of accolades. How many b2b champion captains were there in the history of the league.

Based on your criteria, fisher ranks high on your list.

You either were a horrible communicator earlier on or is trying to make things up as you go.

Context ambchang. The caption/leader reference was directly with Kobe and Tim in the context of the discussion. You only brought Fisher into it because you seem to think that invalidates my comments when they were clearly pointing to Kobe's leadership. Wrong again per the usual.

Its just common sense ambchang. We all know that the leaders and captains of teams get more accolades (warranted or not) and take more blame (warranted or not) than the average player. Fisher is higher on my list that other equivalently skilled point guards indeed because he helped defend 3 titles in a captains role. And yes he got well publicized accolades for being the glue in the locker room etc. Are you saying he didn't?

But to say he is high on my list of overall players is just you tying to bait some little grade school argument out of me with no base in fact. Heck, to be honest, my list doesn't even go that low. :) I have better things to do but if we were discussing point guards and listing them you bet Fisher gets points in my book for being the captain of 3 title defending champions.

[140]

Context ambchang. The caption/leader reference was directly with Kobe and Tim in the context of the discussion. You only brought Fisher into it because you seem to think that invalidates my comments when they were clearly pointing to Kobe's leadership. Wrong again per the usual.
:lmao

[ambchang]

Context ambchang. The caption/leader reference was directly with Kobe and Tim in the context of the discussion. You only brought Fisher into it because you seem to think that invalidates my comments when they were clearly pointing to Kobe's leadership. Wrong again per the usual.

Its just common sense ambchang. We all know that the leaders and captains of teams get more accolades (warranted or not) and take more blame (warranted or not) than the average player. Fisher is higher on my list that other equivalently skilled point guards indeed because he helped defend 3 titles in a captains role. And yes he got well publicized accolades for being the glue in the locker room etc. Are you saying he didn't?

But to say he is high on my list of overall players is just you tying to bait some little grade school argument out of me with no base in fact. Heck, to be honest, my list doesn't even go that low. :) I have better things to do but if we were discussing point guards and listing them you bet Fisher gets points in my book for being the captain of 3 title defending champions.

Why are you talking about Kobe? You were talking about Jordan and I was talking about fisher.

And no, we were talking about Duncan's place in league history and you explicitly stated captain of a b2b champion is something of merit, which makes Duncan lesser than Jordan. Which in and of itself retarded because Jordan could have won 6 titles every other year and still be regarded the way he is regarded right now.

[phyzik]

In case you bottom dwellers didnt see it....

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/watch-tim-duncan-gives-lengthy-post-retirement-interview/

Really insightful interview since it was done by a friend of his... he opens up a lot more than what you see in the big media.

It's a long one though, the video in this link is 44 minutes long, the live interview was actually almost an hour and a half. I'm just assuming it was cut to 44 minutes due to some technical difficulties during the live interview.

[cobbler]

Why are you talking about Kobe? You were talking about Jordan and I was talking about fisher.

And no, we were talking about Duncan's place in league history and you explicitly stated captain of a b2b champion is something of merit, which makes Duncan lesser than Jordan. Which in and of itself retarded because Jordan could have won 6 titles every other year and still be regarded the way he is regarded right now.

We all know why you brought up Fisher. I'll not go down that grade school path with you. I should have simply said "leaders" and left the "captain" part off since you seem to have difficulty with concepts.

And you are right. If Jordan had won six titles every other year he would still be held in high regard. That's a no brainer. But if you think not defending one of those titles wouldn't be brought up in every legacy discussion then you are a fool. Seriously, you cannot see the merit in winning 10 in a row over 10 in 20 years? Enough...

[Thread]

In case you bottom dwellers didnt see it....

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/watch-tim-duncan-gives-lengthy-post-retirement-interview/

Really insightful interview since it was done by a friend of his... he opens up a lot more than what you see in the big media.

It's a long one though, the video in this link is 44 minutes long, the live interview was actually almost an hour and a half. I'm just assuming it was cut to 44 minutes due to some technical difficulties during the live interview.

Did he talk about having to go thru Bexar County authorities to set up visitation with his children?

[Killakobe81]

:lol
they all holding on though ...


Not gonna debate today but tim has his decorated college career to add to his HOF resume ...
But Kobe has two gold medals while tim has none.

Both are HOf'ers of the highest order

BUMP For splits ass ..

[Killakobe81]

Well spoken. Td is an all time great ...
Goat pf arguably best career since Jordan.
Not sure he is the greatest player since Mj and thats different
Hakeem, Shaq, Lebron definitely and even Kobe could make a case as the better individual player, but career wise its Duncan.however i do think magic and Jordan for leading a repeat do have an edge on Duncan and Kareem had the better career period.
Spur fan be overly sensitive on that count but its my honest and biased opinion.

Bump for Splits ass as well

[DMC]

Bump for Splits ass as well
An old man, a cripple and an autistic man go into a bar....

[Thread]

An old man, a cripple and an autistic man go into a bar....

....the tired old shit bag Duncan: 2nd 5th

[Mark Celibate]

The possibility or difficulty of repeating depends to a good extent on the competitive level of the context imho. If you got the best team in a rather weak era with no close runner up, chance is you can win two or more championships in a row without facing much contest. But if you play among a host of good teams during a period of time like the mid 2000s, winning 3 championships within the time span of 5 years was easily more impressive than winning consecutive 3 when the 2nd best player on the opposing team was either Dekembe Mutombo or Richard Jefferson :lol

[ambchang]

We all know why you brought up Fisher. I'll not go down that grade school path with you. I should have simply said "leaders" and left the "captain" part off since you seem to have difficulty with concepts.

And you are right. If Jordan had won six titles every other year he would still be held in high regard. That's a no brainer. But if you think not defending one of those titles wouldn't be brought up in every legacy discussion then you are a fool. Seriously, you cannot see the merit in winning 10 in a row over 10 in 20 years? Enough...

Who is we? So you know the reason I brought up Fisher is to say that you are retarded? It's like saying, "I know why you brought up Jordan. I'll not go down that grade school path with you." I mean, does Jordan really have to win those 6 b2b2b and then b2b2b? Not really, he'd still be goat if he won 4 or 5, every other year. It's like saying a Bugatti is a better car than a BMW M3 because the Bugatti's got better bucket seats.

Bird not repeating never brought any issue to his legacy discussion, and nobody would rank Hakeem ahead of either Bird of Duncan because Hakeem repeated. Russell won 11 in 13 years, he won freaking 8 in a row, do you rank him #1 all time?

[cobbler]

Who is we? So you know the reason I brought up Fisher is to say that you are retarded? It's like saying, "I know why you brought up Jordan. I'll not go down that grade school path with you." I mean, does Jordan really have to win those 6 b2b2b and then b2b2b? Not really, he'd still be goat if he won 4 or 5, every other year. It's like saying a Bugatti is a better car than a BMW M3 because the Bugatti's got better bucket seats.

Bird not repeating never brought any issue to his legacy discussion, and nobody would rank Hakeem ahead of either Bird of Duncan because Hakeem repeated. Russell won 11 in 13 years, he won freaking 8 in a row, do you rank him #1 all time?

This will be my last post on the topic since you obviously have a difficult time comprehending and I have better things to do. Bird has an awesome legacy and well deserved. The Lakers 80's team trumps his team simply because they won 2 more championships and that is after all the ultimate decider. However, let's toss out a hypothetical here and delete the 80 and 82 championships. Now it's Celt and Lakers with 3 each. How do you break down which was the better team when the ultimate qualifier (championships) is the same? Some, obviously not you, would find that the Lakers 3 titles were greater than the Celts 3 because they managed to defend their title in the process. If it wasn't so difficult to do then it would happen a lot more often. Because it is so difficult some consider it relevant. I can understand with you being a Spurs fan why you would discount such an accomplishment.

When did I ever say repeating is my number one qualifier when comparing individuals or teams? You are just making shit up Arm. Russel definitely gets points for not only the number of ships but also the title defenses.

When considering teams the only thing that ultimately matters is championships. The Celts are number 1 on the teams list. I hate it but facts are facts. The lakers are 2nd with no other team close. Again, facts.

Now if you want to split up eras and compare teams we could argue until the cows come home but everyone has differing criteria on how they rate teams as well as individuals. For me in the team realm it's championships, head to head series, head to head playoff wins, and you guessed it, title defenses.

That's why if i go even further and take the 72 title off the scale and leave just the last 5 Laker championships the scale still tilts towards the P&G. 5 = 5 so my next criteria is head to head series. Check Lakers. Head to head game wins. Check Lakers. Was there a title defense involved. Triple check Lakers.

Sure, you can bring up that the Lakers missed the playoffs more over the time span. You can absolutely say the Spurs were more consistent over the 20 years as well. Kudos to them for their regular season prowess! It's remarkable and note worthy. But when it's all said and done, it's about who is holding the trophy at the end of the season and should there be any ties my qualifiers as listed above are playoff driven. I again have no doubt yours are different.

As for how I rate individuals all the above has importance with respect to their roles in accomplishing the team goals ALONG with their individual stats. Again, not rocket science. Just some plain ole common sense.

Oh, and by the way, Jordan isn't the goat on my list. OMG, the internet is going to collapse now! :lol

[scanry]

Did he talk about having to go thru Bexar County authorities to set up visitation with his children?

Aren't they watching your old wrinkly ass considering your history.

[ambchang]

This will be my last post on the topic since you obviously have a difficult time comprehending and I have better things to do. Bird has an awesome legacy and well deserved. The Lakers 80's team trumps his team simply because they won 2 more championships and that is after all the ultimate decider. However, let's toss out a hypothetical here and delete the 80 and 82 championships. Now it's Celt and Lakers with 3 each. How do you break down which was the better team when the ultimate qualifier (championships) is the same? Some, obviously not you, would find that the Lakers 3 titles were greater than the Celts 3 because they managed to defend their title in the process. If it wasn't so difficult to do then it would happen a lot more often. Because it is so difficult some consider it relevant. I can understand with you being a Spurs fan why you would discount such an accomplishment.

The good ole “I painted myself in the corner so I will say you are slow and I am too important for you move”. Perhaps it could be better comprehended by any one reading what you wrote if you actually wrote what you meant in the first place. Or admit you didn’t think through before you wrote (which is fine). Better yet, you should have actually just thought through your criteria before posting instead of pulling these stupid takes on how repeating is so important in a player’s legacy, and continue to contradict yourself over and over.

And you are probably the only person who would rank the Lakers 3 championships over the Celtics ones because they repeated. The 85, 87 and 88 titles were arguably better than the Celtics ones because the lakers beat the Celtics twice, while the Celtics beat the Lakers once, and even then, it’s an iffy statement because the 86 Celtics team was viewed as one of the best teams of all time.


When did I ever say repeating is my number one qualifier when comparing individuals or teams? You are just making shit up Arm. Russel definitely gets points for not only the number of ships but also the title defenses.

And yet you pulled the Jordan > Duncan because he repeated card, which is stupid.


When considering teams the only thing that ultimately matters is championships. The Celts are number 1 on the teams list. I hate it but facts are facts. The lakers are 2nd with no other team close. Again, facts.
Yeah, sure, whatever you want to say.


Now if you want to split up eras and compare teams we could argue until the cows come home but everyone has differing criteria on how they rate teams as well as individuals. For me in the team realm it's championships, head to head series, head to head playoff wins, and you guessed it, title defenses.

And yet you used b2b to compare individuals between Jordan and Duncan.


That's why if i go even further and take the 72 title off the scale and leave just the last 5 Laker championships the scale still tilts towards the P&G. 5 = 5 so my next criteria is head to head series. Check Lakers. Head to head game wins. Check Lakers. Was there a title defense involved. Triple check Lakers

And yet you used b2b to compare individuals between Jordan and Duncan.


Sure, you can bring up that the Lakers missed the playoffs more over the time span. You can absolutely say the Spurs were more consistent over the 20 years as well. Kudos to them for their regular season prowess! It's remarkable and note worthy. But when it's all said and done, it's about who is holding the trophy at the end of the season and should there be any ties my qualifiers as listed above are playoff driven. I again have no doubt yours are different.

And yet you used b2b to compare individuals between Jordan and Duncan.


As for how I rate individuals all the above has importance with respect to their roles in accomplishing the team goals ALONG with their individual stats. Again, not rocket science. Just some plain ole common sense.

And yet you used it to compare individuals between Jordan and Duncan.




Oh, and by the way, Jordan isn't the goat on my list. OMG, the internet is going to collapse now! :lol
Not sure who is, because from an importance to team goals along with individual stats perspective, Jordan is really second to none. The only other person with any sort of argument is Kareem.

[cobbler]

The good ole “I painted myself ... is Kareem.

Defending a championship is both a team and individual accomplishment. Period. How much importance one puts on the accomplishment is subjective. I find it relevant. You obviously find no value in it. You can try to twist my comments all you want. I could not care less. And by the way, thank you for pointing out that I left out the Lakers head to head victories over those Celtics teams. Fits right in to my weighted criteria posted earlier. I could have stated that better no doubt. Also, since you brought it up you must believe the Lakers were the better team vs the Spurs over the last two decades. :)

And I really cannot fathom how you can argue that Jordan's 2 title defenses and 2 three-peats don't factor into his legacy or that TD and the Spurs lack to do so is a blemish in some peoples opinions.

Enough already.... Have a good day.

[Killakobe81]

Defending a championship is both a team and individual accomplishment. Period. How much importance one puts on the accomplishment is subjective. I find it relevant. You obviously find no value in it. You can try to twist my comments all you want. I could not care less. And by the way, thank you for pointing out that I left out the Lakers head to head victories over those Celtics teams. Fits right in to my weighted criteria posted earlier. I could have stated that better no doubt.

And I really cannot fathom how you can argue that Jordan's 2 title defenses and 2 three-peats don't factor into his legacy or that TD and the Spurs lack to do so is a blemish in some peoples opinions.

Enough already....

Amb just loves to argue the inarguable ...
l

[cobbler]

Amb just loves to argue the inarguable ...
l

I don't know him that well to be honest. I don't come by here too often anymore. He sure seems to have a comprehension problem though. Or hey, maybe I don't express myself well enough to get through to him. Regardless, my opinions on the topic are not that difficult to understand. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it that's for sure.

[Killakobe81]

I don't know him that well to be honest. I don't come by here too often anymore. He sure seems to have a comprehension problem though. Or hey, maybe I don't express myself well enough to get through to him. Regardless, my opinions on the topic are not that difficult to understand. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it that's for sure.

He is mostly cool but the thing I dont get is why does he keep going on, on the subject?
He can establish his opinion explain why he thinks he is right bit on these kinda subjective topics no way to prove something so definitive. He can post a wall of words are crunch data but if you or entrenched in your argument you are not gonna change so he should just move on.

[cobbler]

He is mostly cool but the thing I dont get is why does he keep going on, on the subject?
He can establish his opinion explain why he thinks he is right bit on these kinda subjective topics no way to prove something so definitive. He can post a wall of words are crunch data but if you or entrenched in your argument you are not gonna change so he should just move on.

Agreed. And I shall follow that advice as well. I didn't think I was obtuse or misrepresenting how I value team and individual accomplishments. I'm definitely not a very skilled writer but I'm pretty sure my comments were understood by most.

[Killakobe81]

Agreed. And I shall follow that advice as well. I didn't think I was obtuse or misrepresenting how I value team and individual accomplishments. I'm definitely not a very skilled writer but I'm pretty sure my comments were understood by most.


Nah you were clear.
I love Amb but he just refuses to let things die sometimes ...especially related to Kobe.
Plenty have joked he wouldnt have much to talk about once kobe retired, but he has managed to stretch that material for all it's worth.
since splits was also confused let me sum up my stance:

1. duncan had the more consistently great career. Less Lows and as much or more highs than Kobe from a team and in some cases individual perspective. s
2. duncan was the more reliable Finals performer (he had some struggles too but less than Kobe)
3. Duncan seemed like the better team-mate ...leadership is subjective but I would give the nod there as well.
4. Kobe was more dynamic and when he put it together like in 2001 (pre Lebron) there were times I thought he was the best all around player since jordan. Never felt that way about Tim but he was close. That is why I said I would take peak Kobe. At his best when he was unselfish, dominating as a scorer in ways that Duncan never could or did nolt want to ... I just thought Kobe was better.

Again I am not using numbers just my opinion. Not just on eye test but what I felt as a biased observer.

[Thread]

Aren't they watching your old wrinkly ass considering your history.

I implore you not to go down this path. If you persist you'll never leave it.

[ambchang]

Defending a championship is both a team and individual accomplishment. Period. How much importance one puts on the accomplishment is subjective. I find it relevant. You obviously find no value in it. You can try to twist my comments all you want. I could not care less. And by the way, thank you for pointing out that I left out the Lakers head to head victories over those Celtics teams. Fits right in to my weighted criteria posted earlier. I could have stated that better no doubt. Also, since you brought it up you must believe the Lakers were the better team vs the Spurs over the last two decades. :)

So it's one of those "I feel like it" arguments, which really, holds no weight. If you want to argue Jordan > Duncan, it's pretty easy to do, and even the more ardent DUncan fan would probably say that is true, but to use the repeat stick just speaks to a hidden agenda. Basically, you want to troll, got called out, and backfired, and now you are saying that I just cannot understand you (even though it was you who is speaking in circles), and that you can entitled to what you feel. No shit, everybody is entitled to what they feel, just be prepared to be called out when you are feel something incredibly stupid.

And you could care less, when you respond time after time, even after saying you wouldn't respond speak otherwise.

And no, I don't think Lakers > Spurs over the last 2 decades because the Lakers missed the playoffs 4 times during that span, and for someone who stressed comprehension so much:

""The 85, 87 and 88 titles were arguably better than the Celtics ones because the lakers beat the Celtics twice, while the Celtics beat the Lakers once, and even then, it’s an iffy statement because the 86 Celtics team was viewed as one of the best teams of all time."


And I really cannot fathom how you can argue that Jordan's 2 title defenses and 2 three-peats don't factor into his legacy or that TD and the Spurs lack to do so is a blemish in some peoples opinions.

Jordan would have been GOAT without the repeats, so yeah, it did nothing to his legacy.


Enough already.... Have a good day.

I thought you said the last time it was the last time you want to respond, and yet here you are, so I am not sure how seriously to take this comment.

[ambchang]

Amb just loves to argue the inarguable ...
l

I am the arguable side, you are on the inarguable side to say Kobe peak > Duncan's peak. There is absolutely NOTHING that can back you up ... oh wait, or are you saying you feel that way.

Apologize, I can't argue you feeling some retarded crap.

[ambchang]

Nah you were clear.

Clear how? That Jordan > Duncan because Jordan won b2b and Duncan didn't? it's about the stupidest things I have ever heard.


I love Amb but he just refuses to let things die sometimes ...especially related to Kobe.
Plenty have joked he wouldnt have much to talk about once kobe retired, but he has managed to stretch that material for all it's worth.
since splits was also confused let me sum up my stance:

1. duncan had the more consistently great career. Less Lows and as much or more highs than Kobe from a team and in some cases individual perspective. s

Pretty obvious, and Duncan's most definitely had more highs.


2. duncan was the more reliable Finals performer (he had some struggles too but less than Kobe) So was Pierce.


3. Duncan seemed like the better team-mate ...leadership is subjective but I would give the nod there as well. Seemed like a better teammate? I wasn't in the locker room and neither were you, but based on what we have read and heard, this is like saying it seems like Gandhi is a better guy that Stalin.


4. Kobe was more dynamic and when he put it together like in 2001 (pre Lebron) there were times I thought he was the best all around player since jordan. Never felt that way about Tim but he was close. That is why I said I would take peak Kobe. At his best when he was unselfish, dominating as a scorer in ways that Duncan never could or did nolt want to ... I just thought Kobe was better.

So peak Kobe was higher than Duncan, peak Shaq was higher than Duncan, and when peak Shaq and peak Kobe were together (2001 as you noted), they were 3-2 Duncan? How does that work? Is end of prime Robinson > peak Shaq? I am confused here. There is absolutely no logic flow to your statement.


Again I am not using numbers just my opinion. Not just on eye test but what I felt as a biased observer.

:lol at least you admit you are being biased and have no objective argument. Based on eye test, I can say that TMac > Jordan. It's that stupid.

[Killakobe81]

Clear how? That Jordan > Duncan because Jordan won b2b and Duncan didn't? it's about the stupidest things I have ever heard.



Pretty obvious, and Duncan's most definitely had more highs.

So was Pierce.

Seemed like a better teammate? I wasn't in the locker room and neither were you, but based on what we have read and heard, this is like saying it seems like Gandhi is a better guy that Stalin.



So peak Kobe was higher than Duncan, peak Shaq was higher than Duncan, and when peak Shaq and peak Kobe were together (2001 as you noted), they were 3-2 Duncan? How does that work? Is end of prime Robinson > peak Shaq? I am confused here. There is absolutely no logic flow to your statement.



:lol at least you admit you are being biased and have no objective argument. Based on eye test, I can say that TMac > Jordan. It's that stupid.

You have some pretty stupid and shitty eyes tbh
Need to have them shits checked, yo ...

[cobbler]

Clear how? That Jordan > Duncan because Jordan won b2b and Duncan didn't? it's about the stupidest things I have ever heard.


Nobody said that. Certainly not me! That was all made up by YOU so now I have to go back on my word and reply based on your outright lying here.

Jordan is greater than Duncan for a multitude of reasons that have been discussed ad nauseam around here and there is no reason to rehash them. My comment of "he's lightyears behind in defending championships" was a tongue-in-cheek jab at midget, who I have had many discussions with over the years, and his "So career wise, there's an argument. Duncan still remains massively underrated, and isn't really all that far behind Jordan in overall team impact." And even though it was a tongue-in-cheek jab it's the absolute truth. It's a FACT. I pointed out very well that repeating is simply ONE of many factors, and not even close to the most definitive, on who has has been greater in my opinion. And regardless of what you may think, I know quite a few people that place value on the ability to defend your title. And that goes for all sports.

So you may find it one of the stupidest things you have ever heard but you must have been listening to that inner retard because the entire statement was made up again... by YOU.

Not surprising though coming from someone who values making the playoffs over head to head victories in the playoffs. But hey, when you can say something is arguably better followed directly by it's iffy in the very same sentence then who's to argue with you? :lol Yikes!

So if you want to call my ACTUAL comments stupid, feel free to do so. However, fabricating comments and attributing them to me is at the very least disingenuous.

[ambchang]

You have some pretty stupid and shitty eyes tbh
Need to have them shits checked, yo ...

Ditto for you to have Kobe prime > Duncan prime.

Like I said, of any player in the conversation of top 10 all time kobes prime is the worst of them all.

[ambchang]

Nobody said that. Certainly not me! That was all made up by YOU so now I have to go back on my word and reply based on your outright lying here.

Jordan is greater than Duncan for a multitude of reasons that have been discussed ad nauseam around here and there is no reason to rehash them. My comment of "he's lightyears behind in defending championships" was a tongue-in-cheek jab at midget, who I have had many discussions with over the years, and his "So career wise, there's an argument. Duncan still remains massively underrated, and isn't really all that far behind Jordan in overall team impact." And even though it was a tongue-in-cheek jab it's the absolute truth. It's a FACT. I pointed out very well that repeating is simply ONE of many factors, and not even close to the most definitive, on who has has been greater in my opinion. And regardless of what you may think, I know quite a few people that place value on the ability to defend your title. And that goes for all sports.

Oh, so it's now tongue in cheek! Backtrack some more. You also said you had no intentions of trolling, and yet this is a tongue in cheek jab? How is that not trolling?


So you may find it one of the stupidest things you have ever heard but you must have been listening to that inner retard because the entire statement was made up again... by YOU.

See ... wouldn't have been a problem if it wasn't for the fact that your entire post was about repeats.


You are a tad sensitive today DPG but thanks for the insightful reply. My post simply states the truth. There is weight and merit that comes with defending a championship. It's extremely difficult to do. I could explain it in detail for you but I really don't think it would sink in so I choose not to waste my time. Simply put Jordan was a master at defending the throne. Timmy, not so much.

And I for one am a TD fan. Great and astonishing career! For me thought, not defending a single title is a blemish. If that's a sh*t opinion, then so be it.


Not surprising though coming from someone who values making the playoffs over head to head victories in the playoffs. But hey, when you can say something is arguably better followed directly by it's iffy in the very same sentence then who's to argue with you? :lol Yikes!

You are really that special that you don't even realize you are showing me how truly incredibly stupid you are. You some how manage to cram two points that are absolutely fine and say they are incorrect as some sort of "proof" to say how wrong I am.

I would imagine most people would understand, but since it's you, here you go:

1) As an individual player, a superstar, all time great player shouldn't have any problems hauling a below average, or even horrible team to the playoffs in his prime. We have seen Jordan haul those aweful Bulls teams to the playoffs starting his rookie year, before he hit his prime. We have seen lebron drag those awful Cavs teams to the playoffs, and even the Finals. We have seen Robinson do it, we have seen Duncan led deeply flawed teams to 50+ seasons, year after year after year, and even to a championship in 2003. We have seen Hakeem do it in the late 80s, we have seen Moses do it to the Rockets (and even led them to the finals) . The only exceptions are Kareem and Kobe, and Kareem should have made it easily as well, just that the divisional rules stopped him with such a small number of teams from each division eligible. Kobe though, had Caron Butler and Lamar Odom in their respective primes, and finished so far out of the playoffs the year Pau Gasol led a similar talent level with the Grizzlies to an 8th seed in the same year.

On the other hand, h2h victories in the playoffs are about timing and supporting casts. Wow! Kobe is 4-2 vs. Duncan, never mind Kobe had Shaq for 3 of those victories (I mean, two supposedly top 10 player of all time together had a 3-2 playoff record vs. another team with one top10 player of all time? How does that work?) and the other year had a very strong team with him vs. a supporting cast where Udoka and Brent Barry were some sort of lynch pin on the team, and never mind Duncan was arguably the best player in the series.

And not only that, Kobe couldn't even get to face Duncan in their respective primes because he was missing the playoff and getting kicked out the 1st round in his three absolute peak years. He also had the Achilles injury in 2013 and missed the date with Duncan, and in all likelihood, finish the h2h at 4-3.

Is Magic > Bird because of h2h records? No, it's because Magic had a longer prime. Bird's peak was higher than Magic (pretty clear), but Bird actually had that 1-2 record vs. the Lakers during the peak of his prime.

Is Nash > Kobe because of h2h records? no, because that is a retarded take.

Is Duncan > Lebron because of h2h records? No, Duncan had longevity on his side, and Lebron was just dominant.

H2H is about one of the worst criteria to use in comparing individual players.

2) Saying something is an iffy argument is absolutely totally acceptable. Your narrow mind may not comprehend it, but it's true. There is an argument that Kobe is on the same level as, say TMac, the arguments are there, but they would be iffy. There is an argument that Kobe is on the same level as Paul Pierce, the arguments are there, but ... oh wait, they are not iffy according to you, because they are 1-1 h2h, and Pierce outplayed Kobe in BOTH of those series.


So if you want to call my ACTUAL comments stupid, feel free to do so. However, fabricating comments and attributing them to me is at the very least disingenuous.

Fabricating? You write it right out there, and I quoted it multiple times. And I am going to quote it TWICE in this thread.


You are a tad sensitive today DPG but thanks for the insightful reply. My post simply states the truth. There is weight and merit that comes with defending a championship. It's extremely difficult to do. I could explain it in detail for you but I really don't think it would sink in so I choose not to waste my time. Simply put Jordan was a master at defending the throne. Timmy, not so much.

And I for one am a TD fan. Great and astonishing career! For me thought, not defending a single title is a blemish. If that's a sh*t opinion, then so be it.

You said not defending pull Duncan down a notch, and used it as a comparison to Jordan directly. I never said that was the SOLE reason you used, but it was the one you used. You tried to troll, got called out, and is now throwing a hissy fit.

[cobbler]

Oh, so it's now tongue in cheek! Backtrack some more. You also said you had no intentions of trolling, and yet this is a tongue in cheek jab? How is that not trolling?

On iPhone now, so will get back more with the other retarded takes in your post above.

Don't waste your time. I will not be reading it. You ARM made me realize why I don't visit here much anymore. After spending a few hours over the last couple days perusing and commenting it all came back to me today seeing your ignorance in full bloom. You, like DPG, DMC and a few others are so damn sensitive when anyone points out any faults your precious Spurs or TD might have. It's both sad and comical. One little truthful comment that TD is light years behind jordan with respect to defending titles and all this ensues. You outright lied and put words in my mouth and then made arguments against them. Absolutely pathetic. I'll waste no more of my time discussing anything with you since you just cannot grasp simple concepts.

Take care and always cherish those regular season accolades!!!! :toast

[djohn2oo8]

Did Amb really just say based on the eye test, that t-mac is better than jordan? :lol

[K...]

Did Amb really just say based on the eye test, that t-mac is better than jordan? :lol

He did, but mainly to show that if you define peak performance to be, say best regular season, you have tmac and Jordan beck and neck. But career t Mac is a sad story. And playoffs t MAc.


The idea that Kobe has a better peak is for idiots who only watch one side of the ball and ignore pace. Statistics show it. Duncan didn't need another dominant big to win a ring, he won with Jackie Elson and fabby oberto. Parker and gino are nice, but it's a big three like Cleveland has a big two. LeBron is much better than kyrie.


Again, Kobe had a great career. But Duncan was just on another level as a player.

[K...]

Duncan also didn't hit the lottery between David Robison retiring and Parker and gino blossoming. Yeah spurs had slightly more talent, but here you mention kobes effect on teammates, and again, Duncan is just on another level.

[djohn2oo8]

He did, but mainly to show that if you define peak performance to be, say best regular season, you have tmac and Jordan beck and neck. But career t Mac is a sad story. And playoffs t MAc.




Except he cannot make the case Tmac's peak is better than MJ's peak based on the eye test...Eye test or numbers test. They aren't even neck and neck.

[Killakobe81]

He did, but mainly to show that if you define peak performance to be, say best regular season, you have tmac and Jordan beck and neck. But career t Mac is a sad story. And playoffs t MAc.


The idea that Kobe has a better peak is for idiots who only watch one side of the ball and ignore pace. Statistics show it. Duncan didn't need another dominant big to win a ring, he won with Jackie Elson and fabby oberto. Parker and gino are nice, but it's a big three like Cleveland has a big two. LeBron is much better than kyrie.


Again, Kobe had a great career. But Duncan was just on another level as a player.

Was still a dumb analogy which Amb is prone to pull out when he gets fustrated.

[djohn2oo8]

Was still a dumb analogy which Amb is prone to pull out when hw gets fustrated.
Yep. Jordan's peak season, he almost averaged 40 a game.

[scanry]

I implore you not to go down this path. If you persist you'll never leave it.

Wouldn't dream of it tbh. I just find it ironic that you bring up Tim's kids.

[Thread]

Wouldn't dream of it tbh. I just find it ironic that you bring up Tim's kids.

Wise decision.

[ambchang]

Don't waste your time. I will not be reading it.

I am sure you won't, it's just the second time you said you won't.


You ARM made me realize why I don't visit here much anymore.

What did me ARM do? Honestly, no idea what you are trying to say.


After spending a few hours over the last couple days perusing and commenting it all came back to me today seeing your ignorance in full bloom. You, like DPG, DMC and a few others are so damn sensitive when anyone points out any faults your precious Spurs or TD might have. It's both sad and comical. One little truthful comment that TD is light years behind jordan with respect to defending titles and all this ensues. You outright lied and put words in my mouth and then made arguments against them. Absolutely pathetic. I'll waste no more of my time discussing anything with you since you just cannot grasp simple concepts.

Take care and always cherish those regular season accolades!!!! :toast

Oh, wait, you don't troll, why are you taking jabs at people every other post?

I mean, never mind you put an entire post about the importance of b2b to talk about how Jordan > Duncan, and now, after being called it, it's all "I didn't say Jordan > Duncan was because of repeats". You are pretty bad at trolling, and you are even worse in lying, but that doesn't seem to stop you from doing either.

And :lol about calling anyone sensitive. You are throwing your little tantrum around like a 6 year old princess because your "jabs" got called out and you can't defend it. If you want to jab people, be ready when people jab you back. if you can't defend it, don't say you are not trying to troll.

[ambchang]

Did Amb really just say based on the eye test, that t-mac is better than jordan? :lol

I always knew you are a retard, and you have proven it yet again.

[ambchang]

He did, but mainly to show that if you define peak performance to be, say best regular season, you have tmac and Jordan beck and neck. But career t Mac is a sad story. And playoffs t MAc.


The idea that Kobe has a better peak is for idiots who only watch one side of the ball and ignore pace. Statistics show it. Duncan didn't need another dominant big to win a ring, he won with Jackie Elson and fabby oberto. Parker and gino are nice, but it's a big three like Cleveland has a big two. LeBron is much better than kyrie.


Again, Kobe had a great career. But Duncan was just on another level as a player.

It was actually to point out how subjective and retarded the "eye test" is, especially when there are no other objective measures to back it up.

[ambchang]

Except he cannot make the case Tmac's peak is better than MJ's peak based on the eye test...Eye test or numbers test. They aren't even neck and neck.


Yep. Jordan's peak season, he almost averaged 40 a game.

Which is the same as saying Kobe's peak > Duncan's peak with the eye test. They are equally stupid.

[140]

I always knew you are a retard, and you have proven it yet again.
:lol

[djohn2oo8]

Which is the same as saying Kobe's peak > Duncan's peak with the eye test. They are equally stupid.

Saying Kobe's peak was better than Duncan's isn't stupid for this reason. Kobe was regarded as the best player in the league at a point in his career. It was Kobe then LeBron, until LeBron surpassed him. Duncan was never regarded as a dominant force like Kobe was.

[djohn2oo8]

I always knew you are a retard, and you have proven it yet again.

I quoted your dumbass post. You are asshurt that Kobe's peak, based on the eye test, was better than Tim's peak. That doesn't take away from Tim. You are just way too goddamn sensitive.

[ambchang]

Saying Kobe's peak was better than Duncan's isn't stupid for this reason. Kobe was regarded as the best player in the league at a point in his career. It was Kobe then LeBron, until LeBron surpassed him. Duncan was never regarded as a dominant force like Kobe was.

I can pretty much respond to all your posts wit this now. You are just making it easy.


I always knew you are a retard, and you have proven it yet again.

:lol Duncan was never regarded as a dominant force like Kobe was. How dominant, leading his team to miss the playoffs?


I quoted your dumbass post. You are asshurt that Kobe's peak, based on the eye test, was better than Tim's peak. That doesn't take away from Tim. You are just way too goddamn sensitive.

:lol accusing me of being sensitive while acting like a princess losing her barbie doll.

Kobe's peak was by far the worst of anyone considered in the top 10, or even top 20 of all time.

My eye test is showing that you are dumber than an eggplant, but then, I have your posts to back that up.

[Killakobe81]

I quoted your dumbass post. You are asshurt that Kobe's peak, based on the eye test, was better than Tim's peak. That doesn't take away from Tim. You are just way too goddamn sensitive.

yep. and because I have some numbers ... anyone that disagrees with me is retarded, stupid, antiquated etc. ...

[Killakobe81]

It was actually to point out how subjective and retarded the "eye test" is, especially when there are no other objective measures to back it up.

You dont need objective measures for something subjective, genius.
I think the WIRE is a better series than breaking bad.
the numbers disagree.
BB has higher TV ratings, better Streaming #'s, more emmys more golden Globes.
Does that make BB better?

I prefer andre 3000 and Black thought more than Drake.
Drake sells more records. Sells more shows. has more Grammys does that mean he is a better artist?

Life is not all about numbers but here are some ...

Most 30 pt games regular season:
Michael Jordan -- 562
Wilt Chamberlain -- 515
Karl Malone -- 435
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 429
Kobe Bryant -- 408
Oscar Robertson -- 387
Jerry West -- 350
Dominque Wilkins -- 346
Allen Iverson -- 345
Elgin Baylor -- 343
Adrian Dantley -- 313
Shaquille O'Neal -- 313
Lebron James -- 304
George Gervin -- 296
Bob Pettit - 284
Alex English - 276
Elvin Hayes -- 253

Of all the top 20 Players one guy is "notoriously absent. This is by far the worst showing for scoring dominance by any player considered in the top 5 except pass first Magic. Lebron has played much fewer seasons and is there, so is malone who played teh same position and whose era crossed with duncan's.

Playoffs are little more kind ...

30 point games Playoffs

Michael Jordan -- 109
Kobe Bryant -- 88
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 75
Jerry West -- 74
Elgin Baylor -- 60
Shaquille O'Neal -- 55
Karl Malone -- 54
Lebron James -- 53
Hakeem Olajuwon -- 53
Rick Barry -- 48
Dirk Nowitzki -- 45
Larry Bird -- 43
Wilt Chamberlain -- 42
Allen Iverson -- 36
Tim Duncan -- 35
Bob Pettit -- 33
George Gervin -- 32
Dwyane Wade -- 31

Despite 19 years of making the playoffs Tim is about 15th behind Dirk, Rick freaking Barry and of course Olajawon ...who some people here act as though he only dominated for two seasons ...how the hell does he have 18 more 30 point games?! :lol

Oh what about pace? Sure the game has changed. But duncan also got the benefit of more playoff games.

Well he is not a scorer like Dirk ... Karl Malone played the same position for a similar number of years with high defensive metrics and has 19 more of those games.
It's 30 points nothing crazy ...like 40, 50, 60 or even 80.

Not saying that Kobe is better than Duncan.
Duncan's career resume trumps his.
Duncan was the more consistent more reliable the more impactful two-way player overall.

But when both were balling at their best Kobe just dominated games in ways I dont think duncan did.
That does not make me stupid retarded etc.
I may be wrong because I freely admit there is some bias here. how could there not be?

But amb acting like he cant understand the logic because he does not agree is asinine.

It's subjective like choosing Mozart over Chopin.
Prince over Micheal

[K...]

You dont need objective measures for something subjective, genius.
I think the WIRE is a better series than breaking bad.
the numbers disagree.
BB has higher TV ratings, better Streaming #'s, more emmys more golden Globes.
Does that make BB better?

I prefer andre 3000 and Black thought more than Drake.
Drake sells more records. Sells more shows. has more Grammys does that mean he is a better artist?

Life is not all about numbers but here are some ...

Most 30 pt games regular season:
Michael Jordan -- 562
Wilt Chamberlain -- 515
Karl Malone -- 435
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 429
Kobe Bryant -- 408
Oscar Robertson -- 387
Jerry West -- 350
Dominque Wilkins -- 346
Allen Iverson -- 345
Elgin Baylor -- 343
Adrian Dantley -- 313
Shaquille O'Neal -- 313
Lebron James -- 304
George Gervin -- 296
Bob Pettit - 284
Alex English - 276
Elvin Hayes -- 253

Of all the top 20 Players one guy is "notoriously absent. This is by far the worst showing for scoring dominance by any player considered in the top 5 or top ten ..

Lebron has played much fewer seasons and is there ..in fact only guys in most top 10's who are not are pass first PG Magic johnson and the unselfish Larry bird.

Playoffs are little more kind ...

30 point games Playoffs

Michael Jordan -- 109
Kobe Bryant -- 88
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 75
Jerry West -- 74
Elgin Baylor -- 60
Shaquille O'Neal -- 55
Karl Malone -- 54
Lebron James -- 53
Hakeem Olajuwon -- 53
Rick Barry -- 48
Dirk Nowitzki -- 45
Larry Bird -- 43
Wilt Chamberlain -- 42
Allen Iverson -- 36
Tim Duncan -- 35
Bob Pettit -- 33
George Gervin -- 32
Dwyane Wade -- 31

Despite 19 years of making the playoffs Tim is about 15th behind Dirk, Rick freaking Barry and of course Olajawon ...who some people here act as though he only dominated for two seasons ...how the hell does he have 18 more 30 point games?! :lol

Oh what about pace? Sure the game has changed. But duncan also got the benefit of more playoff games.

Well he is not a scorer like Dirk ... Karl Malone played the same position for a similar number of years with high defensive metrics and has 19 more of those games.
It's 30 points nothing crazy ...like 40, 50, 60 or even 80.

Not saying that Kobe is better than Duncan.
Duncan's career resume trumps his.
Duncan was the more consistent more reliable the more impactful two-way player overall.

But when both were balling at their best Kobe just dominated games in ways I dont think duncan did.
That does not make me stupid retarded etc.
I may be wrong because I freely admit there is some bias here. how could there not be?

But amb acting like he cant understand the logic because he does not agree is asinine.

It's subjective like choosing Mozart over Chopin.
Prince over Micheal

:cry offense only...:cry pace

[Killakobe81]

:cry offense only...:cry pace

Excuses.
Numbers can be adjusted or juked to make your argument.
that is why this is subjective.
Dirk played int he same era.
IF duncan' or his team plays at a slower pace because he is slow that is on him ...:downspin:


Kidding btw :lol

[Killakobe81]

:cry offense only...:cry pace

Nothing more dominant (to some) than scoring over someone one on one or on over a double team ...

[ambchang]

You dont need objective measures for something subjective, genius.
I think the WIRE is a better series than breaking bad.
the numbers disagree.
BB has higher TV ratings, better Streaming #'s, more emmys more golden Globes.
Does that make BB better?
It actually does. You are mixing up personal preferences with subjective measures. Hey, you can feel anything you want, but when most measures disagree with you, then you don’t have a leg to stand on to defend your feelings.

I prefer andre 3000 and Black thought more than Drake.
Drake sells more records. Sells more shows. has more Grammys does that mean he is a better artist?
From a popularity and success perspective? Yes. Hey, I prefer dre3000 as well, but the numbers speak for themselves. I like Manu Ginobili more than I like Duncan, doesn’t make Manu a better player than Duncan.

Life is not all about numbers but here are some ...
Most 30 pt games regular season:
Michael Jordan -- 562
Wilt Chamberlain -- 515
Karl Malone -- 435
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 429
Kobe Bryant -- 408
Oscar Robertson -- 387
Jerry West -- 350
Dominque Wilkins -- 346
Allen Iverson -- 345
Elgin Baylor -- 343
Adrian Dantley -- 313
Shaquille O'Neal -- 313
Lebron James -- 304
George Gervin -- 296
Bob Pettit - 284
Alex English - 276
Elvin Hayes -- 253

Of all the top 20 Players one guy is "notoriously absent. This is by far the worst showing for scoring dominance by any player considered in the top 5 except pass first Magic. Lebron has played much fewer seasons and is there, so is malone who played teh same position and whose era crossed with duncan's.
So you are talking about scoring and scoring only, which really isn’t what basketball is all about, and is a horrible list to rank players. Not sure what you are trying to prove here, because how “good” a player is should be about how much he helps his team win, and that is that. Exclusion of Magic and inclusion of Gervin, Iverson, English, Hayes, and such pretty much invalidates this list.
To go a little further, you are saying a player who scores 29 points in every single game for 500 games is worse than a player who scored 1 30 point game with 499 games scoring 20 points a game.

Playoffs are little more kind ...

30 point games Playoffs

Michael Jordan -- 109
Kobe Bryant -- 88
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -- 75
Jerry West -- 74
Elgin Baylor -- 60
Shaquille O'Neal -- 55
Karl Malone -- 54
Lebron James -- 53
Hakeem Olajuwon -- 53
Rick Barry -- 48
Dirk Nowitzki -- 45
Larry Bird -- 43
Wilt Chamberlain -- 42
Allen Iverson -- 36
Tim Duncan -- 35
Bob Pettit -- 33
George Gervin -- 32
Dwyane Wade -- 31

Despite 19 years of making the playoffs Tim is about 15th behind Dirk, Rick freaking Barry and of course Olajawon ...who some people here act as though he only dominated for two seasons ...how the hell does he have 18 more 30 point games?! :lol
Same as above.

Oh what about pace? Sure the game has changed. But duncan also got the benefit of more playoff games.
Well he is not a scorer like Dirk ... Karl Malone played the same position for a similar number of years with high defensive metrics and has 19 more of those games.
It's 30 points nothing crazy ...like 40, 50, 60 or even 80.
Yeah, and Magic, being a top 5 player, doesn’t HAVE to score 30 points a game to help you win. Duncan, a top 5-10 player, doesn’t HAVE to score 30 points a game to help you win. He goes out, and provide predictable, consistent production, and that, to you, is somehow worse.
Not to mention your single-minded look with scoring as some kind of measure.
Again, if you want to say Kobe is a better volume scorer than Duncan? Sure, I will agree to that. Doesn’t make Kobe a better player though.

Not saying that Kobe is better than Duncan.
Duncan's career resume trumps his.
Duncan was the more consistent more reliable the more impactful two-way player overall.

I am glad you somehow stumbled into consistency, because a player have lots of peaks and valleys is somehow better than a player who have consistent production.

But when both were balling at their best Kobe just dominated games in ways I dont think duncan did.
That does not make me stupid retarded etc.
I may be wrong because I freely admit there is some bias here. how could there not be?
Dominant is not scoring a lot of points. Maybe you should think about that.

But amb acting like he cant understand the logic because he does not agree is asinine.
I certainly cannot understand how two top 10 player in their primes, together, can only have a 3-2 record against another top 10 player, on his own, when the first two top 10 players had higher peaks than the lone top 10 player. Please explain that to me.

It's subjective like choosing Mozart over Chopin.
Prince over Micheal
Too bad they don’t have advanced stats to measure musicians.

[ambchang]

Nothing more dominant (to some) than scoring over someone one on one or on over a double team ...

So Bernard King had a higher peak than magic?

[Killakobe81]

It actually does. You are mixing up personal preferences with subjective measures. Hey, you can feel anything you want, but when most measures disagree with you, then you don’t have a leg to stand on to defend your feelings.

From a popularity and success perspective? Yes. Hey, I prefer dre3000 as well, but the numbers speak for themselves. I like Manu Ginobili more than I like Duncan, doesn’t make Manu a better player than Duncan.

So you are talking about scoring and scoring only, which really isn’t what basketball is all about, and is a horrible list to rank players. Not sure what you are trying to prove here, because how “good” a player is should be about how much he helps his team win, and that is that. Exclusion of Magic and inclusion of Gervin, Iverson, English, Hayes, and such pretty much invalidates this list.
To go a little further, you are saying a player who scores 29 points in every single game for 500 games is worse than a player who scored 1 30 point game with 499 games scoring 20 points a game.

Same as above.

Yeah, and Magic, being a top 5 player, doesn’t HAVE to score 30 points a game to help you win. Duncan, a top 5-10 player, doesn’t HAVE to score 30 points a game to help you win. He goes out, and provide predictable, consistent production, and that, to you, is somehow worse.
Not to mention your single-minded look with scoring as some kind of measure.
Again, if you want to say Kobe is a better volume scorer than Duncan? Sure, I will agree to that. Doesn’t make Kobe a better player though.


I am glad you somehow stumbled into consistency, because a player have lots of peaks and valleys is somehow better than a player who have consistent production.

Dominant is not scoring a lot of points. Maybe you should think about that.

I certainly cannot understand how two top 10 player in their primes, together, can only have a 3-2 record against another top 10 player, on his own, when the first two top 10 players had higher peaks than the lone top 10 player. Please explain that to me.

Too bad they don’t have advanced stats to measure musicians.

I dont have to defend anything. I also dont think scoring is all that matters. But its a stat nonetheless and an important one.
Its subjective who was better at their best but an opinion you think im wrong on so move on. You made your case and the majority here will agree with you. Even I agree with you as well career-wise.
But dont act as though you cannot understand ...you disagree and dont want to see the other side and that is cool i dont judge you for it ...but stop acting holier than holy.

[Koolaid_Man]

Ditto for you to have Kobe prime > Duncan prime.

Like I said, of any player in the conversation of top 10 all time kobes prime is the worst of them all.


Hey you sick simpleton Fuck who likes writing fucking paragraphs with each post....suck on this....:lol



I actually FaceTimed Kobe after the game as soon as I got in the locker room. Other than seeing my dad and my sister right after we won, FaceTiming him was just a great thing, knowing how he has won five and I just won my first. Then realizing how hard it is just to win one, my respect for him is already high, but it went to another level knowing that he's got five of them. I'm trying to get a second one. - [B]Kyrie Irving

[Koolaid_Man]

That is kinda gay of Kyrie though....niggas seem like they are infactuated with my nigga :lol

[TDMVPDPOY]

why doesnt killakobe posts up the amount of rs and po wins?

whats the point of scoring 35pts and not gettin the win?

[Killakobe81]

why doesnt killakobe posts up the amount of rs and po wins?

whats the point of scoring 35pts and not gettin the win?

I dont have to post anything tbh,
I only did that because amb was talking numbers so I provided one.
The point I was making is the same as the Wire you can find numbers to back up whatever story you want to "sell" that is why I dont trust them.
Duncan had the better career.
at their best I preferred Kobe, not because of "numbers" or scoring but just a feel. It's definitely an opinion not a fact because it's subjective.
Pretty easy logic to follow.

[140]

Sorry killa but equating stats to TV ratings is just retarded tbh :lol Stats are used as a way to objectively quantify a players impact, while ratings are just a way to measure the popularity of a show. And as we both know a show being popular does not necessarily mean it's good or better (I'm on the same boat as you regarding The Wire/BB by the way). A better analogy would be All Star votes/Twitter followers/Facebook likes or whatever tbh

So yeah you can say you like Kobe better than Duncan for subjective reasons and no one can say anything about that. Objectively speaking you have no case though because the stats just don't back up your argument.

[ambchang]

I dont have to defend anything.

Of course you don't have to, it's not like I am going to eat your children if you can't defend your stance. It's just puzzling, that's all. Not to mention that you put it out there, and just pull the "I don't have to defend anything" card when challenged.


I also dont think scoring is all that matters. But its a stat nonetheless and an important one.

But you just used it to rank players all time. not only that, you used a random cutoff point of number of 30 point games.


Its subjective who was better at their best but an opinion you think im wrong on so move on. You made your case and the majority here will agree with you. Even I agree with you as well career-wise.
But dont act as though you cannot understand ...you disagree and dont want to see the other side and that is cool i dont judge you for it ...but stop acting holier than holy.

I am not sure why you are saying that I cannot understand is an act, because I really failing to see the logic all. So far, I only have the eye test and the number of 30 point games.

[ambchang]

Hey you sick simpleton Fuck who likes writing fucking paragraphs with each post....suck on this....:lol

You act like Duncan didn't have five.

But Irving is right reaching out to Kobe though, both were 2nd banana's on championship teams. Parker and Worthy are probably on Irving's speed dial.

[djohn2oo8]

I dont have to defend anything. I also dont think scoring is all that matters. But its a stat nonetheless and an important one.
Its subjective who was better at their best but an opinion you think im wrong on so move on. You made your case and the majority here will agree with you. Even I agree with you as well career-wise.
But dont act as though you cannot understand ...you disagree and dont want to see the other side and that is cool i dont judge you for it ...but stop acting holier than holy.

Amb likes to downplay scoring when it doesn't favor Tim. But when Kobe shoots 6 for 24 now its a topic for discussion. He likes to have it both ways.

[Killakobe81]

Sorry killa but equating stats to TV ratings is just retarded tbh :lol Stats are used as a way to objectively quantify a players impact, while ratings are just a way to measure the popularity of a show. And as we both know a show being popular does not necessarily mean it's good or better (I'm on the same boat as you regarding The Wire/BB by the way). A better analogy would be All Star votes/Twitter followers/Facebook likes or whatever tbh

So yeah you can say you like Kobe better than Duncan for subjective reasons and no one can say anything about that. Objectively speaking you have no case though because the stats just don't back up your argument.

1. Points are a stat. the one I posted shows Kobe was more dominant scoring wise which is generally the most important stat
2. Yep I do like Kobe better mostly for subjective reasons.
3. Thinig that is funny 140 tbh as a player I was more duncan ...had a great bankshot, unselfish, great defender, rim protector more than like Kobe. Maybe that is why I appreciate him because he did the shit I could not ...
4. Love BB but the Wire is better period. I chose those two shows because not only did BB have more rating but it got more awards a spinoff etc. Not saying Kobe = wire and duncan = BB just saying that numbers, awards etc can lie.

[K...]

Amb likes to downplay scoring when it doesn't favor Tim. But when Kobe shoots 6 for 24 now its a topic for discussion. He likes to have it both ways.

Lmao what other function was Kirby doing when he went 6-24? Kobe stopped paying defense like ten years ago. Everyone knows that. You don't have to say it because it's like fact one about Kobe ....

[Thread]

Lmao what other function was Kirby doing when he went 6-24? Kobe stopped paying defense like ten years ago. Everyone knows that. You don't have to say it because it's like fact one about Kobe ....

Went to work &&& went down into the paint at Fisher's mandate. Passed the ball to Artest on that 3. Everybody figured he'd launch it out of frustration & selfishness. Uh, uh. There ain't been a better double cross since Amy walked Tim to the rocks in the '13 Finals.

[K...]

1. Points are a stat. the one I posted shows Kobe was more dominant scoring wise which is generally the most important stat
2. Yep I do like Kobe better mostly for subjective reasons.
3. Thinig that is funny 140 tbh as a player I was more duncan ...had a great bankshot, unselfish, great defender, rim protector than Kobe. Maybe that is why I appreciate him because he did the shit I could not ...
4. Love BB but the Wire is better period. I chose those two shows because not only did BB have more rating but it got more awards a spinoff etc. Not saying Kobe = wire and duncan = BB just saying that numbers, awards etc can lie.

In the NFL left tackles are paid well despite accruing no meaningful stats. Do you know why?

No one is going to argue that Kobe wasn't a gifted scorer or a better scorer than Duncan. But you are arguing that your less comprehensive view view of what makes a dominant player is better than spurs fans more comprehensive view. It's not 100% wrong but it's not right. The key us how much weight do you give to efficiency, defense distribution, etc.

[ambchang]

Amb likes to downplay scoring when it doesn't favor Tim. But when Kobe shoots 6 for 24 now its a topic for discussion. He likes to have it both ways.

6 for 24 in a game 7 of the finals with your team getting a win means that you really aren't that big of a scoring deal in the first place. Really, if you are supposedly the top 5 scorer in league history, and your team can STILL win with you sucking at the best thing you do means that either:

a) You really aren't that good in what you do, or
b) Your team is so stacked that it can still beat it's most formidable opponent in a pressure packed situation with you playing like crap

Scoring is important for sure, and there are many games Duncan stunk at scoring in the playoffs as well, but then Duncan really isn't known as a top 5 scorer of all time, he is just known as a top 5 basketball player of all time. So if there is a Finals game where Duncan didn't play in his prime, or play like total crap, and the Spurs still won, let me know.

[ambchang]

1. Points are a stat. the one I posted shows Kobe was more dominant scoring wise which is generally the most important stat

It is ONE of the stats. You never see me say Duncan > Kobe because he had more rebounds, did you?



2. Yep I do like Kobe better mostly for subjective reasons.

That's pretty much the only reasons you can have.


3. Thinig that is funny 140 tbh as a player I was more duncan ...had a great bankshot, unselfish, great defender, rim protector than Kobe. Maybe that is why I appreciate him because he did the shit I could not ...

All NBA players can do things we cannot, that is why we are not in the league.


4. Love BB but the Wire is better period. I chose those two shows because not only did BB have more rating but it got more awards a spinoff etc. Not saying Kobe = wire and duncan = BB just saying that numbers, awards etc can lie.

Didn't realize TV shows have stats.

[Killakobe81]

In the NFL left tackles are paid well despite accruing no meaningful stats. Do you know why?

No one is going to argue that Kobe wasn't a gifted scorer or a better scorer than Duncan. But you are arguing that your less comprehensive view view of what makes a dominant player is better than spurs fans more comprehensive view. It's not 100% wrong but it's not right. The key us how much weight do you give to efficiency, defense distribution, etc.

I do weigh those too ... hence why I think duncan had the better career.

[ambchang]

Went to work &&& went down into the paint at Fisher's mandate. Passed the ball to Artest on that 3. Everybody figured he'd launch it out of frustration & selfishness. Uh, uh. There ain't been a better double cross since Amy walked Tim to the rocks in the '13 Finals.

Shriveled under pressure and need Artest to bail him out, that's Kobe.

[Killakobe81]

It is ONE of the stats. You never see me say Duncan > Kobe because he had more rebounds, did you?




That's pretty much the only reasons you can have.



All NBA players can do things we cannot, that is why we are not in the league.



Didn't realize TV shows have stats.

1. you could have used rebounds, blocks whatever you want and if they mattered more to YOU than that is fine.

[Killakobe81]

Shriveled under pressure and need Artest to bail him out, that's Kobe.

Still talkin' Kobe, that is Amb ...

[ambchang]

1. you could have used rebounds, blocks whatever you want and if they mattered more to YOU than that is fine.

Buddy, I am not trying to pull a it's all about me view of the world. You are really confusing personal preference against widely accepted rankings. You can put weightings on pointless and mundane things all you want, but that is not going to make your point convincing.

When you go to your boss on a business case, do you put in assumptions that only work for you? Of course not! Boss, I want to hire 16 more people for my group because I feel that we would need them all to process all those emails we have. May seem like a mundane function to everyone else, but to me, that's what I feel. Try bringing that to your boss and see what happens.

I am sure you will pull the "I am not here to convince you" card, but too bad, you are on a discussion forum to discuss things, and without anything to back you up, you have nothing to discuss.

[ambchang]

Still talkin' Kobe, that is Amb ...

Did I bring him up?

[Killakobe81]

Buddy, I am not trying to pull a it's all about me view of the world. You are really confusing personal preference against widely accepted rankings. You can put weightings on pointless and mundane things all you want, but that is not going to make your point convincing.

When you go to your boss on a business case, do you put in assumptions that only work for you? Of course not! Boss, I want to hire 16 more people for my group because I feel that we would need them all to process all those emails we have. May seem like a mundane function to everyone else, but to me, that's what I feel. Try bringing that to your boss and see what happens.

I am sure you will pull the "I am not here to convince you" card, but too bad, you are on a discussion forum to discuss things, and without anything to back you up, you have nothing to discuss.

A forum post with an opinion doesnt require proof. I didnt posit a ranking per se. Either ... I said at their peak best I prefer, would choose Kobe. not a ranking just a personal choice.

[ambchang]

A forum post with an opinion doesnt require proof. I didnt posit a ranking per se. Either ... I said at their peak best I prefer, would choose Kobe. not a ranking just a personal choice.

That's a ranking, you ranked Kobe's peak above Duncan's peak.

[Killakobe81]

That's a ranking, you ranked Kobe's peak above Duncan's peak.

the action or process of giving a specified rank or place within a grading system.

[Killakobe81]

Buddy, I am not trying to pull a it's all about me view of the world. You are really confusing personal preference against widely accepted rankings. You can put weightings on pointless and mundane things all you want, but that is not going to make your point convincing.

When you go to your boss on a business case, do you put in assumptions that only work for you? Of course not! Boss, I want to hire 16 more people for my group because I feel that we would need them all to process all those emails we have. May seem like a mundane function to everyone else, but to me, that's what I feel. Try bringing that to your boss and see what happens.

I am sure you will pull the "I am not here to convince you" card, but too bad, you are on a discussion forum to discuss things, and without anything to back you up, you have nothing to discuss.

Seriously? :lmao
you are so cute when Kobe gets you all riled up ...

[Killakobe81]

Of course you don't have to, it's not like I am going to eat your children if you can't defend your stance. It's just puzzling, that's all. Not to mention that you put it out there, and just pull the "I don't have to defend anything" card when challenged.



But you just used it to rank players all time. not only that, you used a random cutoff point of number of 30 point games.



I am not sure why you are saying that I cannot understand is an act, because I really failing to see the logic all. So far, I only have the eye test and the number of 30 point games.

Are you sure you know what this word means?
I did not rank player by scoring that was a list I found online.
It might not even be up to date tbh ...
I was just proving a point ...

[ambchang]

the action or process of giving a specified rank or place within a grading system.

You want to go dictionary on me?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/rank?s=t
to assign to a particular position, station, class, etc.:

[ambchang]

Seriously? :lmao
you are so cute when Kobe gets you all riled up ...

Riled up how? You are avoiding the point of this discussion by somehow assigning emotions to me through the internet. You are just confusing me more and more.

[ambchang]

Are you sure you know what this word means?
I did not rank player by scoring that was a list I found online.
It might not even be up to date tbh ...
I was just proving a point ...

Yeah, I just pulled the definition online, which is consistent with how I have viewed it.

What point were you trying to prove? If you have one other than what I thought you were, you didn't do a good job conveying that point.

[Killakobe81]

Riled up how? You are avoiding the point of this discussion by somehow assigning emotions to me through the internet. You are just confusing me more and more.

I am not avoiding anything.
I have said repeatedly why I prefer Kobe ...you just dont like that answer so you choose to try engaging in a debate no one even wants. No spur fan is choosing Kobe career, peak or otherwise.
I have said repeatedly why I RANKED Duncan over Kobe career wise and I listed how I came about with that ranking previously and how I list with Tim on the 1st team and Kobe on the 2nd.

YOu are the only person still with an issue.
djohn agreed and left. No one cares. About my personal list except you.
It's flattering but you already won all you can.

Let it go ...Let it go.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZCSUdFmtew

[Killakobe81]

I know what you are feeling. .. let it go ...let it go ... :bang

[AlexJones]

Duncan's probably the one guy in all of sports to actually be disrespected when people regard him as the best all-time at his own position. He's been the GOAT PF since 2003, folks. It's laughable that he isn't universally considered to be top 5.

[Killakobe81]

Duncan's probably the one guy in all of sports to actually be disrespected when people regard him as the best all-time at his own position. He's been the GOAT PF since 2003, folks. It's laughable that he isn't universally considered to be top 5.

he is in mine!

C Kareem
PF Duncan
SF Lebron
SG Jordan
PG Magic

Top 5 no doubt about it ... on this we agree.

[ambchang]

I am not avoiding anything.
I have said repeatedly why I prefer Kobe ...you just dont like that answer so you choose to try engaging in a debate no one even wants. No spur fan is choosing Kobe career, peak or otherwise.
I have said repeatedly why I RANKED Duncan over Kobe career wise and I listed how I came about with that ranking previously and how I list with Tim on the 1st team and Kobe on the 2nd.

YOu are the only person still with an issue.
djohn agreed and left. No one cares. About my personal list except you.
It's flattering but you already won all you can.

Let it go ...Let it go.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZCSUdFmtew

I can't stand lack of logic, and that's it. Kobes peak is horrifically bad for a supposed top 10 player.

[cobbler]

I can't stand lack of logic, and that's it.

And yet you cannot grasp that 5.3>5.0, 4>3, 18>16, and in the case of TD vs MJ defenses 4>0. But hey you get a point for knowing 19>15 so your not a complete retard! :bang

[HarlemHeat37]

Cobbler!!!!

[ambchang]

And yet you cannot grasp that 5.3>5.0, 4>3, 18>16, and in the case of TD vs MJ defenses 4>0. But hey you get a point for knowing 19>15 so your not a complete retard! :bang

What the hell is 5.3? I am not even sure what is 4>3. And 18>16 is true, but then the lakers were more consistent over the years while Celtics had a lot of valleys.
I am of entirely sure what those numbers are. What you showed are a bunch of simple arithmetical facts, can't really tie it to basketball prominence.

[cobbler]

What the hell is 5.3? I am not even sure what is 4>3. And 18>16 is true, but then the lakers were more consistent over the years while Celtics had a lot of valleys.
I am of entirely sure what those numbers are. What you showed are a bunch of simple arithmetical facts, can't really tie it to basketball prominence.

Let me tie it to basketball for ya. 5.3 is 5 titles with 3 title defenses among them. Do I have to explain the 5.0? :)

The 4>3 is head to head playoff series between the Lakers and Spurs. Let's talk about those for a minute. Of the 4 Laker series victories 2 were in conf semi's and 2 were conf finals. The 3 Spurs series wins were 1 first rounder and 2 conf semi finals. Let's look at the two times the teams met in the conf finals which obviously is the highest bracket level the two teams can play in. Both Laker victories and the game W/L is 8 to 1 Lakers. Yes. that is correct, when the two teams met in the conference finals the Spurs managed to only win one game.

The 18>16 has nothing to do with the Celtics. You really are dimwitted. The Laker/Celtic titles are 16 and 17. 18>16 is the head to head playoff wins. Lakers take that too.

The 19>15 is the amount of years the teams made the playoffs over the 19 years. You know, the reason you gave that trumped all the above in your reasoning why the Spurs were the better team.

Capeesh?

[midnightpulp]

:lmao "Title defenses."

[cobbler]

:lmao "Title defenses."

Spoken like a faithful Spurs fan! Well done and entirely expected.

[djohn2oo8]

I can't stand lack of logic, and that's it. Kobes peak is horrifically bad for a supposed top 10 player.
Using the "eye test", that absolutely makes you a liar and i'm not the biggest Kobe fan.

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I know it's fun to hate on Kobe, but peak Kobe was dominant.

[Sean Cagney]

Using the "eye test", that absolutely makes you a liar and i'm not the biggest Kobe fan.

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I know it's fun to hate on Kobe, but peak Kobe was dominant.
Peak KOBE was a monster..... Period.

[ambchang]

Let me tie it to basketball for ya. 5.3 is 5 titles with 3 title defenses among them. Do I have to explain the 5.0? :)

The 4>3 is head to head playoff series between the Lakers and Spurs. Let's talk about those for a minute. Of the 4 Laker series victories 2 were in conf semi's and 2 were conf finals. The 3 Spurs series wins were 1 first rounder and 2 conf semi finals. Let's look at the two times the teams met in the conf finals which obviously is the highest bracket level the two teams can play in. Both Laker victories and the game W/L is 8 to 1 Lakers. Yes. that is correct, when the two teams met in the conference finals the Spurs managed to only win one game.

The 18>16 has nothing to do with the Celtics. You really are dimwitted. The Laker/Celtic titles are 16 and 17. 18>16 is the head to head playoff wins. Lakers take that too.

The 19>15 is the amount of years the teams made the playoffs over the 19 years. You know, the reason you gave that trumped all the above in your reasoning why the Spurs were the better team.

Capeesh?

:lol .1 for repeats? Where did that come from. Did they get a ring 10% bigger? Why stop at 10%. Why. It make it 100%? 10000%. I decide that rings won in small markets are worth 500% more than those in big markets, so the Spurs actually have the equivalent of 25 big market rings. Even better, there's an additional 50% just because it's Texas, so the Spurs have 37.5 rings. Spurs are simply the most successful franchise in nba history.

And 18>16 is about as cryptic as it comes. It has nothing to do with my intelligence but everything to do with your I ability to communicate. It's a pattern. You can't express the Jordan vs Duncan bit and now you can't talk about playoff h2h.

The lakers Spurs playoff records are actually 34-22 lakers, and series 8-4. So 18-16 and 4-3 isn't something that is apparent to anyone but you. You just have learned to lost your ability to communicate when you lost your ability to walk S well.

I'm not sure what you are trying to compare. Are you trying to compare players franchise? These numbers are meaningless In comparing players which is what has been discussed. If you want to talk about comparing franchises, please make it clear.

[ambchang]

Using the "eye test", that absolutely makes you a liar and i'm not the biggest Kobe fan.

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I know it's fun to hate on Kobe, but peak Kobe was dominant.

Did I say he wasn't dominant? He just was the least dominant of all players that are widely considered in the top 10.

Btw, i can post YouTube highlights that can make tmac and Vince carter look dominant.

[ambchang]

Spoken like a faithful Spurs fan! Well done and entirely expected.

As opposed to saying title defenses are 10% more valuable? So how about three peats? Three peats are even rarer! Why are those only worth 10% more as well? So your stance is not only arbitrary but also inconsistent.

[djohn2oo8]

Did I say he wasn't dominant? He just was the least dominant of all players that are widely considered in the top 10.

Btw, i can post YouTube highlights that can make tmac and Vince carter look dominant.

Peak Kobe was more dominant than Tim. That is for sure. Accept it and move on.

[djohn2oo8]

Post videos of Tmac getting past the first round. And Vince as dominant as Kobe in the playoffs in their peaks.

[cobbler]

:lol .1 for repeats? Where did that come from. Did they get a ring 10% bigger? Why stop at 10%. Why. It make it 100%? 10000%. I decide that rings won in small markets are worth 500% more than those in big markets, so the Spurs actually have the equivalent of 25 big market rings. Even better, there's an additional 50% just because it's Texas, so the Spurs have 37.5 rings. Spurs are simply the most successful franchise in nba history.

And 18>16 is about as cryptic as it comes. It has nothing to do with my intelligence but everything to do with your I ability to communicate. It's a pattern. You can't express the Jordan vs Duncan bit and now you can't talk about playoff h2h.

The lakers Spurs playoff records are actually 34-22 lakers, and series 8-4. So 18-16 and 4-3 isn't something that is apparent to anyone but you. You just have learned to lost your ability to communicate when you lost your ability to walk S well.

I'm not sure what you are trying to compare. Are you trying to compare players franchise? These numbers are meaningless In comparing players which is what has been discussed. If you want to talk about comparing franchises, please make it clear.

The .3 was just a silly way to denote the accomplishment. I suppose, since I am dealing with a simpleton, I should have just said 5 tiles with 3 defenses > 5 titles with none. Of course you don't believe that has any relevance and it's understandable since it's something your team has never achieved.

I know damn well what the total records are numbskull. I was only giving you the numbers during the Timmy and Kobe era. You know, the players we were discussing. And no, we weren't just discussing players. We were also discussing which team we felt was better than the other over the last 19 years. Remember, when you said your deciding factor that the Spurs were better because the Lakers missed the playoffs 4 times and dismissed the head to head stats? Your attention span is just as terrible as your logic. Funny though how when you were talking lakers vs celts that the head to head competition was your deciding factor in favor of the Lakers. But hey, that reasoning doesn't hold up with the lakers vs spurs so you flip flop as usual when it's convenient for you and use a lame missing the playoffs reasoning. You sir, are an imbecile.

[cobbler]

Did I say he wasn't dominant? He just was the least dominant of all players that are widely considered in the top 10.

Btw, i can post YouTube highlights that can make tmac and Vince carter look dominant.

Who's top 10? There is a widely considered top ten? Really? Because every top ten list I see from people here, broadcasters, and even execs and players all differ. So please enlighten us on this "widely considered" list. And if this widely considered list isn't exactly like yours is it retarded too? :lol

[cobbler]

As opposed to saying title defenses are 10% more valuable? So how about three peats? Three peats are even rarer! Why are those only worth 10% more as well? So your stance is not only arbitrary but also inconsistent.

As I pointed out in my previous response. It was just a simply way to denote it. Nothing more. And you are correct. 3 peats are rarer and more difficult so I should have come up with a better way to denote that as well since it would have only tipped the scale even more. Do I have to tell you which direction? :) Beause I am getting the sense here that your comprehension skills are about on par with your intelligence and logic skills.

[ambchang]

Peak Kobe was more dominant than Tim. That is for sure. Accept it and move on.

Great arguments.

You are an idiot. Accept it and move on.

[ambchang]

Post videos of Tmac getting past the first round. And Vince as dominant as Kobe in the playoffs in their peaks.

Carter vs iverson was a classic series.

I am having trouble finding a series of Kobe being dominant in the finals either. I mean, tmac was great in a few series can't help it his team sucked. It's. It like he had Lamar odom and Caron butler carrying him past the first round.

[ambchang]

Who's top 10? There is a widely considered top ten? Really? Because every top ten list I see from people here, broadcasters, and even execs and players all differ. So please enlighten us on this "widely considered" list. And if this widely considered list isn't exactly like yours is it retarded too? :lol

There can be more than 10 players for Players that are widely considered within the top 10. Comprehend?

[StrengthAndHonor]

Great arguments.

You are an idiot. Accept it and move on.

SMH...

[ambchang]

The .3 was just a silly way to denote the accomplishment. I suppose, since I am dealing with a simpleton, I should have just said 5 tiles with 3 defenses > 5 titles with none. Of course you don't believe that has any relevance and it's understandable since it's something your team has never achieved.

1) You are so complex, I mean, who would have thought of that. If you want to say 5 titles with 3 defenses > 5 non-consecutive titles, you could have just said, but since you want to dumb it down to a simpleton's level, you put in something that is absolutely nonsensical and somehow expected people to understand.

2) You should have said it, but you didn't so too bad.

3) I don't really have a team, neither do you.

4) I do find title defenses to be impressive, it's a great team accomplishment.


I know damn well what the total records are numbskull. I was only giving you the numbers during the Timmy and Kobe era. You know, the players we were discussing. And no, we weren't just discussing players. We were also discussing which team we felt was better than the other over the last 19 years. Remember, when you said your deciding factor that the Spurs were better because the Lakers missed the playoffs 4 times and dismissed the head to head stats? Your attention span is just as terrible as your logic. Funny though how when you were talking lakers vs celts that the head to head competition was your deciding factor in favor of the Lakers. But hey, that reasoning doesn't hold up with the lakers vs spurs so you flip flop as usual when it's convenient for you and use a lame missing the playoffs reasoning. You sir, are an imbecile.

Why are you talking about Kobe vs. Duncan now? Weren't you talking about Jordan vs. Duncan with me earlier on? Or even Lakers vs. Spurs? You were talking about Jordan vs. Duncan, i was talking Kobe vs. Duncan with KK81, not you, so you can't expect me to somehow grasp that you have leeched off of another conversation.

Hey, you even said this earlier on:


No trolling intended. It was a simple retort to a post by the Midget who was comping TD and MJ.

I said no such thing. You guys are the ones that obsess about the individual player. The obsession with Kobe by some around here is almost pathetic. I never once mentioned Kobe. My post was referencing Midgets post and was about MJ and TD. Why does it always have to be about Kobe with you guys? Get over it. I am a Laker fan. Kobe was a great player that helped add 5 titles to the quiver. He's not even one my top 5 lakers.
...

Why the sudden change of mind?

And I would imagine someone as complex as you would have been able to grasp the concept that 7 series over a span of 19 years is a little over a third of the representative accomplishments, and that the other 12 years are also relevant.

Your two major arguments have already been addressed:
1) Title defenses are great and all, but for a fan, winning 3 straight then 2 straight, with playoffs but no titles in 10 years, plus missing the playoffs for 4 years, including three straight vs. 5 titles in 19 years, with the other 14 years making the playoffs, with the best overall record over the 19 years in not only the NBA, but all four major sports, are comparatively great. If you want to pick team A, I can understand, if you want to pick team B, I can understand too.

2) H2H are about timing and matchups more than how good the teams are. Hey, are the Suns a better team between 2003 and 2008 than the Lakers during the same period? Arguable. The Lakers made 2 finals in those years (lost both), missed a playoff, and lost to the Suns twice in those years. The Suns didn't win anything in that time frame either, but did hold a 2-0 h2h on the Lakers.


As I pointed out in my previous response. It was just a simply way to denote it. Nothing more. And you are correct. 3 peats are rarer and more difficult so I should have come up with a better way to denote that as well since it would have only tipped the scale even more. Do I have to tell you which direction? :) Beause I am getting the sense here that your comprehension skills are about on par with your intelligence and logic skills.

Then you have pretty high regard for my intelligence and my "logic skills", whatever that is. My comprehension doesn't seem to be the issue here, your composition really is. It's like I am talking to the riddler here, and is expected to somehow grasp your topic of the moment.

And yeah, you should ahve came up with a better way to denote things, you should have actually came up with a better way of expressing every thought you try to express in this thread too, because no one other than you can understand what topic you are trying to stay on at any given point.

[djohn2oo8]

SMH...

Amb is really sensitive. He backs himself into a corner each time and loses.

[cobbler]

Then you have pretty high regard for my intelligence and my "logic skills", whatever that is.

True, we finally agree on something.. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I clearly admit I was wrong. You're just some guy who thinks he knows it all and when someone shows you your wrong you get all flustered and start arguing nonsense. The only reason I have stuck round the last couple days is the humor your stupidity is supplying.

Logical thinking skills dumbass. Again, I suppose I should not have given you the benefit of the doubt. In the future, when dealing with your ignorance, i'll dumb down things to the grade school level since that seems to be where you reside.

After reading a bit here over the last few days I see all these threads where you take on arguments with many only to get penned into a corner with your idiotic "logical thinking skills". It always ends the same way too. You calling the others retards when you have nothing left in the quiver. (gosh I'm hoping the quiver reference isn't too abstract for you to get the point. :lol

[cobbler]

There can be more than 10 players for Players that are widely considered within the top 10. Comprehend?

BRILLIANT logic there I tell ya!!!! :lol

Your not very good at this are you?

[K...]

Cobbler just broke open a huge can of worms.

We've been assuming that Kobe and Duncan and compared apples to apples, ie indiv stats only.

Since cobbler wants to brag about repeats then we have to qualify whether Kobe is a star alpha, star beta, or role player and assign values to it, but because Cobbler and Djohn are too dumb to even acknowledge that you have to play defense to be an all time great i doubt they'll be able to present an unbiased account of what it's like playing alongside a HOF top center vs two top 200 guards

[K...]

Amb is really sensitive. He backs himself into a corner each time and loses.

you failed at reading comprehension, Amb is pretty sensitive and dramatic, true, but he is winning this conversation. Cobbler is throwing dead straw men out. You agree Kobe had a more dominant peak yet you've let cobbler do all the spainin there.

[K...]

I mean Kobe is just a rich man's Tony Parker at this point

Volume shooter, the least valuable, least irreplaceable position.

Faded in the playoffs, not clutch at all.

Not a good team mate, killed several coaches.

Touched the lottery 3 times? Is that the right number? Each lottery trip probably erases a repeat. After all, both Duncan and lebron have had better peaks as far as team success, Durant too (years they missed playoffs due to injury don't count). And the lakers weren't even tanking during the mid 2000's.

I mean which is harder, staying out of the lottery for ten years straight or repeating?

[K...]

Damn, Durant probably needs just 3 chips to pass Kobe.

[djohn2oo8]

you failed at reading comprehension, Amb is pretty sensitive and dramatic, true, but he is winning this conversation. Cobbler is throwing dead straw men out. You agree Kobe had a more dominant peak yet you've let cobbler do all the spainin there.

No he is not winning. He said using the eye test, Kobe had a terrible peak even though that is bullshit. Three titles in a row is a horrible peak? :lol

[djohn2oo8]

I mean Kobe is just a rich man's Tony Parker at this point

Volume shooter, the least valuable, least irreplaceable position.

Faded in the playoffs, not clutch at all.

Not a good team mate, killed several coaches.

Touched the lottery 3 times? Is that the right number? Each lottery trip probably erases a repeat. After all, both Duncan and lebron have had better peaks as far as team success, Durant too (years they missed playoffs due to injury don't count). And the lakers weren't even tanking during the mid 2000's.

I mean which is harder, staying out of the lottery for ten years straight or repeating?

And Duncan lost to him 4 times in the playoffs...

[cobbler]

And Duncan lost to him 4 times in the playoffs...

And two of those four where in the conf finals (the highest bracket they can ever play in barring a conference realignment).

But hey, let's look at the bright side. They did manage to win ONE of those games it the two series.

[djohn2oo8]

And two of those four where in the conf finals (the highest bracket they can ever play in barring a conference realignment).

But hey, let's look at the bright side. They did manage to win ONE of those games it the two series.
yep

[djohn2oo8]

Faded in the playoffs, not clutch at all.


zjr2kNQVbXg

C7Lp5aQq4zI

[K...]

No he is not winning. He said using the eye test, Kobe had a terrible peak even though that is bullshit. Three titles in a row is a horrible peak? :lol

No he said using stats Kobe has the worst peak, then amb did a terrible bit of sarcasm bringing in mcgrady.

I think everyone agrees Kobe was 10x more fun to watch at his peak but fun is not dominance. Dominance is defense and offense. Kobe was great offensive talent, decent defender at times. Tim is a top 5 defensive big and when pace corrected a good offensive player.

[K...]

And two of those four where in the conf finals (the highest bracket they can ever play in barring a conference realignment).

But hey, let's look at the bright side. They did manage to win ONE of those games it the two series.

Look at you again, using team stats to debate an individual leadership. You can't win citing stats, so you use team stats. No shit Kobe Shaq Lakers are a historic team. Duncan gets credit for beating them with less talent. Kobe gets less credit for beating Tim with more talent.



If your argument is that the 5th best all time player couldn't beat number 8 and 10 well that's a team issue.

[cobbler]

I mean which is harder, staying out of the lottery for ten years straight or repeating?

That's actually a really good point. And not only 10 straight but 19 straight for the Spurs. That is a phenomenal achievement and they deserve tons of accolades for being so consistent. It really is a remarkable accomplishment. Points to them. But it's not the best ever. Streaks of 10 or more consecutive playoff experiences have been accomplished by 15 teams by my count. Might be off by one or two but you get my point.

Only 6 teams have repeated.

And regardless, I place playoff achievements WAY above regular season accolades. You obviously differ. It's OK.

[K...]

Y'all are gonna be sorry when amchang learns to control their temper.

Like I said amb won the argument when he said Duncan had a better statistic peak.

And first laker fan said " but Kobe scored more :cry

Then laker fan went "but Tim didn't repeat" :cry

[K...]

That's actually a really good point. And not only 10 straight but 19 straight for the Spurs. That is a phenomenal achievement and they deserve tons of accolades for being so consistent. It really is a remarkable accomplishment. Points to them. But it's not the best ever. Streaks of 10 or more consecutive playoff experiences have been accomplished by 15 teams by my count. Might be off by one or two but you get my point.

Only 6 teams have repeated.

And regardless, I place playoff achievements WAY above regular season accolades. You obviously differ. It's OK.

That's the thing though, if staying in the playoffs was so easy why couldn't Kobe do it? Major red Mark on his legacy.

That's why we bring up daddy Shaq and daddy gasol because when Kobe was the clear number one option his team sucked more than Iverson.

[cobbler]

Y'all are gonna be sorry when amchang learns to control their temper.

Like I said amb won the argument when he said Duncan had a better statistic peak.

And first laker fan said " but Kobe scored more :cry

Then laker fan went "but Tim didn't repeat" :cry

Take things out of context much? :bang

[cobbler]

That's the thing though, if staying in the playoffs was so easy why couldn't Kobe do it? Major red Mark on his legacy.

That's why we bring up daddy Shaq and daddy gasol because when Kobe was the clear number one option his team sucked more than Iverson.

I'll let you answer that.


If your argument is that the 5th best all time player couldn't beat number 8 and 10 well that's a team issue.

[K...]

I'll let you answer that.

Sure, but I'm setting a minimum bar. Win enough in the regular season to make the playoffs every year. Almost all the all time greats did it. Kobe is the outlier.

So you bring repeating, another team issue, and Duncan isn't the only all time great not to repeat. Hmmm.


Maybe making the playoffs every year is more important than repeating, especially considering Duncan lost to some very good teams in 2000, 2004, 2006, 2008. Do you think they should have won those series?

Then we have injury excuses (hi cub) for 2000 and 2015.

Yeah Kobe played with some shit teams, but the bar was so low...make the playoffs

[K...]

I mean maybe it's just possible that every time you saw Tim play he was the best player on the floor except against LeBron. THis I think is true from 1999 to 2007.

[cobbler]

Sure, but I'm setting a minimum bar. Win enough in the regular season to make the playoffs every year. Almost all the all time greats did it. Kobe is the outlier.

I'm sure there are many greats that have missed the playoffs. Heck, you previously brought up Pau insinuating he lead Kobe to the promised land. Well, prior to landing on the Lakers he never made the playoffs. Hmmmmmm You can't have it both ways my friend.


So you bring repeating, another team issue, and Duncan isn't the only all time great not to repeat. Hmmm.
Absolutely true. That solidifies my point about the difficulty to do so.


Maybe making the playoffs every year is more important than repeating, especially considering Duncan lost to some very good teams in 2000, 2004, 2006, 2008. Do you think they should have won those series?

Absolutely making the playoffs is important. It's the number one regular season goal. It's a stain on the Laker tradition no doubt and lot's of circumstances lead to it but no excuses, it's been a terrible few years trying to right the ship. Overall though, the Laker history of playing in nearly half the NBA finals somehow overshadows that negativity. I just happen to put more value on championships, head to head playoff series/game records, and defending titles above making the playoffs and subsequently becoming one of the 29 losers. No worries.

[cobbler]

I mean maybe it's just possible that every time you saw Tim play he was the best player on the floor except against LeBron. THis I think is true from 1999 to 2007.

Nope. Not possible. Sorry. I've seen Tim play when he wasn't even the best player on his own team. Silly comment.

Heck, simply scroll up a few posts and look at the vids. Unless of course you are saying that while the Spurs were getting spanked 8-1 in two conference finals TD was still the best player on the floor in each of the games by "reputation" as kobe was cleaning the spurs clocks.

[midnightpulp]

Spoken like a faithful Spurs fan! Well done and entirely expected.

No. It's because title defenses are meaningless. You don't get any extra hardware at the end of the day.

What matters is the count. And I take 6 titles won every other year over 5 with a repeat.

Tell with a straight face you take the Lakers winning 2 in the 80's via a repeat over the Celtics winning 3 here and there? You know you wouldn't. All anyone would remember is that the Celtics won 3 in the decade to the Lakers 2.

[midnightpulp]

Peak Kobe was more dominant than Tim. That is for sure. Accept it and move on.

Not even close, unless you only consider one side of the ball.

[midnightpulp]

Oh, and if Cobbler wants to pump up the value of title defenses, I've already proven that Tim played better than Kobe in title defense years.


As we all know, titles are team accomplishments, as are the invented accomplishment of a back-to-back. That said, I was wondering who plays better during the playoffs between the the two players with the most rings of their generation when going for a repeat. Not trolling. Nor am I attempting to shit on Kobe. I think their raw stats are very to close to a wash, but Duncan simply has more floor impact defensively with his rebounding, shotblocking, interior presence and much superior +/- stats, not to mention is more clutch. In any event, both players raise their games during a repeat year, which should be commended (Kobe does see a slight drop in RAPM from his playoff average, however).

Tim Duncan

22ppg, 12.4rpg, 3.4apg, 2.0bpg, .518 FG%. +6.4 RAPM, 25.1PER

Clutch stats. (I think these are important to include because they illustrate how a player performs under pressure in the defense of his title). I'm using the accepted, mainstream definition of "clutch" here: Last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter or OT, no team ahead by more than 5 points.

35 made shots on .514% shooting.

Kobe Bryant

28.0ppg, 5.5rpg, 4.9apg, 1.36spg .447 FG%. +3.98 RAPM, 22.6 PER.

Clutch stats.

39 made shots on on .367 shooting. I find Kobe's relatively poor clutch time performance interesting. As if the pressure got to him in these situations, the pressure of defending your team's title. Basketball is indeed a team game, so Kobe's shaky late game play wasn't enough to doom the Lakers.

[cobbler]

No. It's because title defenses are meaningless. You don't get any extra hardware at the end of the day.

What matters is the count. And I take 6 titles won every other year over 5 with a repeat.

Tell with a straight face you take the Lakers winning 2 in the 80's via a repeat over the Celtics winning 3 here and there? You know you wouldn't. All anyone would remember is that the Celtics won 3 in the decade to the Lakers 2.

You don't get extra hardware for making the playoffs either. So just as meaningless in your opinion I guess?

Absolutely what matters is the count!!!!! Could not agree more. I also would take 6 titles over 5 anyway you cook it. On the other hand, I think if you take a 5 year span winning 3 in a row is a better accomplishment than winning 3 every other year over that 5 years.

And I can tell you with a straight face I would take the 3. Total trumps all. Just like us and the Celts. 17 trumps 16 any way you cut it. The lakers have been more consistent over the years and the celts had A more dominant extended run but many many very bad years without making the playoffs. No way I am going to say the lakers are on top even though they were more consistent. And even if we tie them they still get the title in my opinion until we surpass them because they beat us head to head IN THE PLAYOFFS. I find that a much more important qualifier than making the playoffs. Sorry, it is what it is.

[cobbler]

Oh, and if Cobbler wants to pump up the value of title defenses, I've already proven that Tim played better than Kobe in title defense years.

Can't argue with any of that and kudos to Tim. And as you said, those numbers are close to a wash. But also as you and I agreed on above, what matters is count and it's 3-0. Team, individual, or otherwise.

I do find it interesting though that you put so much value on the pressure of defending your title in clutch moments yet find no value on the overall title defense. But you are entitled to your opinions. Just don't call me a retard for placing more value on head to head playoff stats and title defenses over making the playoffs. It's all subjective and up for interpretation.

Bottom line. My original comment that MJ was lightyears ahead of TD in title defenses, which unbelievably has led to pages and pages of banter, is accurate. Is it a team accomplishment, of course, but it also get applied to individuals achievements and leaders of said teams, right or wrong, tend to get the credit/blame for team accomplishments more often than not. AMB asks me to explain how a team goal is an individual one and gets all flustered and now we are on the merry go round between teams, individuals etc.

[K...]

When your ranking 5 against 5 you end up in a pudding match. I mean one guy is to top ten the other is top 15 we're not talking a huge gap.


Again, the central premise is that in no year did Kobe have better advanced stats than Tim.


Title defense does matter. But again, team issue. Making playoffs is also a team issue.

But spurs fans are insisting that any discussion of " most dominant peak" include the radical notion that defense should be included. Lakers f fighting like dogs with rabies to not concede this point. Straw man after straw man have been thrown.


Next thing to appear in this thread is Duncan's divorce.

[ambchang]

True, we finally agree on something.. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I clearly admit I was wrong.
You clearly admit you are wrong how? By following me around?


You're just some guy who thinks he knows it all and when someone shows you your wrong you get all flustered and start arguing nonsense. The only reason I have stuck round the last couple days is the humor your stupidity is supplying.

Thank you for your charity. A few post ago, you were talking about why you left this place is because of people like me, then now, all of a sudden, you are sticking around because you are humoring me? Which one is it?


Don't waste your time. I will not be reading it. You ARM made me realize why I don't visit here much anymore. After spending a few hours over the last couple days perusing and commenting it all came back to me today seeing your ignorance in full bloom. You, like DPG, DMC and a few others are so damn sensitive when anyone points out any faults your precious Spurs or TD might have. It's both sad and comical. One little truthful comment that TD is light years behind jordan with respect to defending titles and all this ensues. You outright lied and put words in my mouth and then made arguments against them. Absolutely pathetic. I'll waste no more of my time discussing anything with you since you just cannot grasp simple concepts.

Take care and always cherish those regular season accolades!!!! :toast


Logical thinking skills dumbass. Again, I suppose I should not have given you the benefit of the doubt. In the future, when dealing with your ignorance, i'll dumb down things to the grade school level since that seems to be where you reside.

Yes, because I should have known what people are talking about when I see things like "logic skills", or "read skills", or "write skills". But for you not to express your thoughts clearly, it was me who is the dumbass. I mean, you really dumbed it down to a level that sounds like a retard, which you are clearly very good at.


After reading a bit here over the last few days I see all these threads where you take on arguments with many only to get penned into a corner with your idiotic "logical thinking skills". It always ends the same way too. You calling the others retards when you have nothing left in the quiver. (gosh I'm hoping the quiver reference isn't too abstract for you to get the point. :lol

You mean like this?

First response to me:


Really? Well, it's first and foremost a team accomplishment. It's a team sport duh. As individuals you comprise the team therefore it also becomes an individual accomplishment. That's what being a team is about. Individuals accomplishing team goals. Being the team captain/leader brings more responsibility and with it, as always, more individual accolades/criticisms depending on the outcome. It's not rocket science.


Logical thinking skills dumbass. Again, I suppose I should not have given you the benefit of the doubt. In the future, when dealing with your ignorance, i'll dumb down things to the grade school level since that seems to be where you reside.


And yet you cannot grasp that 5.3>5.0, 4>3, 18>16, and in the case of TD vs MJ defenses 4>0. But hey you get a point for knowing 19>15 so your not a complete retard! :bang


Never implied Fisher was anywhere on my list. Read the post. Maybe after a few tries you might even comprehend it along with the context from where it came. :bang


Context ambchang. The caption/leader reference was directly with Kobe and Tim in the context of the discussion. You only brought Fisher into it because you seem to think that invalidates my comments when they were clearly pointing to Kobe's leadership. Wrong again per the usual.



We all know why you brought up Fisher. I'll not go down that grade school path with you. I should have simply said "leaders" and left the "captain" part off since you seem to have difficulty with concepts.

I admire your courage in admiting you were penned into a corner with your idiotic "logical thinking skills". But that is the way you react, don't try to project it onto me.


BRILLIANT logic there I tell ya!!!! :lol

Your not very good at this are you?

There are 90 people asked to name their top 3 car brands:

30 people named Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW. 30 people named Mercedes, BMW, and Bugatti. The remaining 30 people named BMW, Bugatti and Porcshe.

So Porsche got 60 votes in the top 3, Mercedes got 60 votes it he top 3, Bugatti got 60 votes in the top 3, and BMW got 90 votes in the top 3.

OMG, 4 cars widely considered in the top 3! How is that possible. Totally blew my mind!

[cobbler]

You clearly admit you are wrong how? By following me around?



Thank you for your charity. A few post ago, you were talking about why you left this place is because of people like me, then now, all of a sudden, you are sticking around because you are humoring me? Which one is it?



Yes, because I should have known what people are talking about when I see things like "logic skills", or "read skills", or "write skills". But for you not to express your thoughts clearly, it was me who is the dumbass. I mean, you really dumbed it down to a level that sounds like a retard, which you are clearly very good at.



You mean like this?

First response to me:














I admire your courage in admiting you were penned into a corner with your idiotic "logical thinking skills". But that is the way you react, don't try to project it onto me.



There are 90 people asked to name their top 3 car brands:

30 people named Porsche, Mercedes, and BMW. 30 people named Mercedes, BMW, and Bugatti. The remaining 30 people named BMW, Bugatti and Porcshe.

So Porsche got 60 votes in the top 3, Mercedes got 60 votes it he top 3, Bugatti got 60 votes in the top 3, and BMW got 90 votes in the top 3.

OMG, 4 cars widely considered in the top 3! How is that possible. Totally blew my mind!

Not going to rehash the whole thread all over AMB. And I only replied back after saying i was done because you outright lied and put words in my mouth and I chose to refute them.

...and yet when you boil it all down MJ is still lightyears ahead of TD in title defenses. :lol Go figure. And here I'll simple it down for ya since the "lightyears" term might confuse or even upset you since you seem so very sensitive. MJ had much greater success defending his titles than TD did.

And you have shown NOTHING to prove otherwise.

[ambchang]

...and yet when you boil it all down MJ is still lightyears ahead of TD in title defenses. Go figure.

I am surprised you have totally dropped:
1) a repeat = .1 of a championship
2) There MUST be 10 players widely considered to be in a top 10 list
3) You don't visit here anymore because of people like me, and yet you hanged around to entertain me the last few days
4) Calling someone a retard is because you were painted to a corner
5) Multiple people can individually use "I agree" on the exact same points.
6) You weren't trolling, even though you were just taking jabs at people

And yes, Jordan is clearly way ahead of Duncan in title defense. I am happy and surprised you realized 5 > 0

[cobbler]

I am surprised you have totally dropped:
1) a repeat = .1 of a championship
2) There MUST be 10 players widely considered to be in a top 10 list
3) You don't visit here anymore because of people like me, and yet you hanged around to entertain me the last few days
4) Calling someone a retard is because you were painted to a corner
5) Multiple people can individually use "I agree" on the exact same points.
6) You weren't trolling, even though you were just taking jabs at people

And yes, Jordan is clearly way ahead of Duncan in title defense. I am happy and surprised you realized 5 > 0

All 6 points above have been hashed and rehashed. I explained why or showed rebuttals to all and have no desire to go over them yet again. I'm honored you would take the time to create such a list to be honest. :toast

And thank you for admitting that MJ is clearly ahead of TD in title defenses. Oh by the way, doesn't that contradict your very fist comment to me asking how team accomplishments are considered individual ones?

Regardless, thank you for coming full circle and admitting my original comment was accurate regardless of your questioning it to begin with. :toast

[ambchang]

Amb is really sensitive. He backs himself into a corner each time and loses.

:lol. How can I argue with Kobe > Duncan. That's it. Move on? I mean, your idiocy got called out, don't call me sensitive for pointing out your horrible points (none in this case) and say you've won.

Btw, have I thanked you for letting me know Duncan ~ Hakeem in their respective peaks? I always thought Hakeem > Duncan but you insisted I look at the numbers and it's pretty clear they are so close, with Duncan even holding a slight edge in the playoffs.

Thanks.

[ambchang]

All 6 points above have been hashed and rehashed. I explained why or showed rebuttals to all and have no desire to go over them yet again. I'm honored you would take the time to create such a list to be honest. :toast

And thank you for admitting that MJ is clearly ahead of TD in title defenses. Oh by the way, doesn't that contradict your very fist comment to me asking how team accomplishments are considered individual ones?

Regardless, thank you for coming full circle and admitting my original comment was accurate regardless of your questioning it to begin with. :toast

No. I said comparing the brilliance of individual players using team accomplishments is faulty. I never said team accomplishments can't be applied to individuals.

Derek fisher is better than Duncan in defending titles. Horry is better than Jordan in winning titles. What's the problem with that?

And no, you didn't address the points, they just suddenly disappeared.

[midnightpulp]

You don't get extra hardware for making the playoffs either. So just as meaningless in your opinion I guess?

Absolutely what matters is the count!!!!! Could not agree more. I also would take 6 titles over 5 anyway you cook it. On the other hand, I think if you take a 5 year span winning 3 in a row is a better accomplishment than winning 3 every other year over that 5 years.

And I can tell you with a straight face I would take the 3. Total trumps all. Just like us and the Celts. 17 trumps 16 any way you cut it. The lakers have been more consistent over the years and the celts had A more dominant extended run but many many very bad years without making the playoffs. No way I am going to say the lakers are on top even though they were more consistent. And even if we tie them they still get the title in my opinion until we surpass them because they beat us head to head IN THE PLAYOFFS. I find that a much more important qualifier than making the playoffs. Sorry, it is what it is.

You don't get extra hardware for making the playoffs, but you still win something: a playoff spot. It's quantifiably better than not making the playoffs.

However a repeat is not better in this regard than winning two titles every other year over a 4 year span.

[Thread]

You don't get extra hardware for making the playoffs, but you still win something: a playoff spot. It's quantifiably better than not making the playoffs.

However a repeat is not better in this regard than winning two titles every other year over a 4 year span.

You're innately ignorant.

[midnightpulp]

You're innately ignorant.

No one did repeats until Red did them, prompted by your beloved East Coast Media.

"Lakers ain't a real champ until they can defend it."

And you bought it, hook, line and sinker.

[Thread]

No one did repeats until Red did them, prompted by your beloved East Coast Media.

"Lakers ain't a real champ until they can defend it."

And you bought it, hook, line and sinker.

That's all well & good, but, you're innately ignorant.

[midnightpulp]

That's all well & good, but, you're innately ignorant.

Do you get an extra trophy for repeats?

Nope.

Until you do, I don't do repeats. You can do them and continue to honor Red, though.

[cobbler]

Do you get an extra trophy for repeats?

Nope.

Until you do, I don't do repeats. You can do them and continue to honor Red, though.

You don't get trophies for regular season wins or playoff appearances either.

You don't get trophies for shooting percentage, defensive rankings, or team impact either and YOU SURE DO THOSE! A lot!

[midnightpulp]

You don't get trophies for regular season wins or playoff appearances either.

You don't get trophies for shooting percentage, defensive rankings, or team impact either and YOU SURE DO THOSE! A lot!

What else are you going to use for head-to-head player comparison?

Are you really going to put Mantle over Mays because Mantle had more rings? Or are you gonna compare stats?

[cobbler]

What else are you going to use for head-to-head player comparison?

Are you really going to put Mantle over Mays because Mantle had more rings? Or are you gonna compare stats?

No argument here. I never said they were not valid. You don't put repeating high on your qualifier list. In fact, I imagine it's not even on your list since you don't do em. It's OK. Many do find it important. That's ok too. Just pointing out that your "trophies" qualifier doesn't hold much water.

It's all good and I completely understand why a majority of Spurs fans place no value on repeating. Funny though how many of you who say repeating has no value sure had a lot to say about the value of stopping the lakers 4 peat. Hmmmm...

[midnightpulp]

No argument here. I never said they were not valid. You don't put repeating high on your qualifier list. In fact, I imagine it's not even on your list since you don't do em. It's OK. Many do. That's ok too. Just pointing out that your "trophies" qualifier doesn't hold much water.

I don't do them, because eventually, they're irrelevant. We just remember the Yankees 27 World Series Wins. Or the Steelers 6 Superbowl Wins. The Celtics 17 titles. And we forget about when and in what order they were won.

"Repeats" were a Red Auerbach invention, used to diminish the Lakers titles since they never repeated (aside from the Minny Lakers) until '88-'89.

[cobbler]

I don't do them, because eventually, they're irrelevant. We just remember the Yankees 27 World Series Wins. Or the Steelers 6 Superbowl Wins. The Celtics 17 titles. And we forget about when and in what order they were won.

"Repeats" were a Red Auerbach invention, used to diminish the Lakers titles since they never repeated (aside from the Minny Lakers) until '88-'89.

Understood. And they might be irrelevant to you but to many they have value. Defending your title is extremely difficult to do regardless who brought up the topic. That's why only 6 franchises have accomplished the feat. We laker fans heard it when the bulls 3-peated and surpassed the magic lakers 2 peat. Seriously, its quite ok that you don't find any merit in them. Totally understandable.

[djohn2oo8]

I'll let you answer that.


:lol. How can I argue with Kobe > Duncan. That's it. Move on? I mean, your idiocy got called out, don't call me sensitive for pointing out your horrible points (none in this case) and say you've won.

Btw, have I thanked you for letting me know Duncan ~ Hakeem in their respective peaks? I always thought Hakeem > Duncan but you insisted I look at the numbers and it's pretty clear they are so close, with Duncan even holding a slight edge in the playoffs.

Thanks.

It's not close actually. The numbers are not close. Neither are the advanced stats which you have to use unstead of raw numbers.

[djohn2oo8]

Good Lord, Mid really said repeating is not better than winning two titles in 4 years. Smh.

[K...]

Good Lord, Mid really said repeating is not better than winning two titles in 4 years. Smh.

no, he said the difference isn't as important, as say missing the playoffs in your prime suggesting you are not an all time dominant player.

[djohn2oo8]

no, he said the difference isn't as important, as say missing the playoffs in your prime suggesting you are not an all time dominant player.

Its still a retarded statement.. One could say losing to the 8th seed as the 1 seed is more embarrassing than missing the playoffs.

[Clipper Nation]

Peak Kobe was more dominant than Tim. That is for sure. Accept it and move on.
:lmao One of the dumbest posts I've ever read on here.

[Clipper Nation]

Post videos of Tmac getting past the first round. And Vince as dominant as Kobe in the playoffs in their peaks.
Kobe never got past Round 1 as the first option either. Even Vince has won more playoff series as the alpha than Kobe.

[djohn2oo8]

:lmao One of the dumbest posts I've ever read on here.

Kobe was apart of a 3 peat. The question actually becomes how many rings does Tim get if Shaq wasn't lazy. Which fortunately for Tim, Shaq didn't work hard.

[djohn2oo8]

Kobe never got past Round 1 as the first option either. Even Vince has won more playoff series as the alpha than Kobe.
Yet Kobe actually has good shooting percentages in the playoffs despite the finals. So he did play a big part of those threepeat teams.

[Clipper Nation]

Kobe was apart of a 3 peat. The question actually becomes how many rings does Tim get if Shaq wasn't lazy. Which fortunately for Tim, Shaq didn't work hard.
Kobe was "part" of a threepeat, sure - in the same way that Fisher was "part" of a threepeat. Shaq is the one who gets (and deserves) credit for the threepeat, because he was the leader and the only irreplaceable player on those teams.

The real question is how many rings does Tim get if Kobe was a good teammate and accepted being a minor role player. Fortunately for Tim, Kobe was a cancer who ran the Shaqorry Lakers into the ground and then ran Shaq out of town.

[djohn2oo8]

Kobe was "part" of a threepeat, sure - in the same way that Fisher was "part" of a threepeat. Shaq is the one who gets (and deserves) credit for the threepeat, because he was the leader and the only irreplaceable player on those teams.

.
Kobe actually had more win shares in the 2000 -2001 playoffs. 3.8 to Shaq's 3.7. So he did play a Big part. Possibly bigger that year.

[Pelicans78]

There you go ... where is MJ?
But I agree great player

My all-time team

C - Kareem
PF Tim
SF Lebron
SG jordan
PG Magic

Couldnt ask for a better starting 5 tbh ...

Kareem has the longevity and is one of my favorites ever, but I think I would take a prime Shaq.

[Clipper Nation]

Yet Kobe actually has good shooting percentages in the playoffs despite the finals. So he did play a big part of those threepeat teams.
The East was the worst it's ever been back then. Kobe's brickfests against whichever fodder came out of the East are a huge stain on his career.

Even in the West, there wasn't much competition. The 2002 Kings were arguably the best team they faced during the threepeat years, and Kobe took more shots than prime Shaq with a far worse FG%. Shaq, Harper and Rice were all more efficient than Kobe against the Blazers in 2000 as well. Other than that, where was the competition? The Spurs were forced to use TOSBs like Terry Porter and Steve Smith to "guard" Kobe. The Suns, pre-2002 Kings, and post-2000 Blazers were just overmatched.

[K...]

Oh now we're arguing that Shaq had a better peak then Tim? Damn maybe that should have been the first argument.

"If Shaq weren't lazy he'd be better than Tim" and if Kobe played defense, played efficient, didn't act prickly he'd be a top 5' And if Vince Carter has forced his way onto a contender, if mcgrady stayed healthy, if Durant had confidence, if Duncan had a reliable frontcourt partner after d Rob. Hypothetical scenarios are fun! ! !

[Biernutz]

I was at Tim's first and Last game in San Antonio. It's been a great run. Thanks Tim, for all the memory's.

[Killakobe81]

Good Lord, Mid really said repeating is not better than winning two titles in 4 years. Smh.

Spur defense mechanism ...
Of course it doesnt matter because they have never done it.
Its not the end all Kobepau did it and to me was less impressive thsn the 2008 Celts or 2011 mavs but doing it still shows some dominance ...that the spurs lacked. But they were consitently great for a mich longer period and that is a different feat thatvis also impressive

[140]

:wow CN dropping truth nukes :wow

[ambchang]

It's not close actually. The numbers are not close. Neither are the advanced stats which you have to use unstead of raw numbers.

I already posted them, those numbers are as close as close can get, and Duncan actually bested Hakeem in a number of those stats .... well, unless you really just want to look at scoring.

[Killakobe81]

Kobe actually had more win shares in the 2000 -2001 playoffs. 3.8 to Shaq's 3.7. So he did play a Big part. Possibly bigger that year.


Damn. Djohn with the counter-strike detonation on Clipper Nation's "truth bombs".:rollin

140 :lol

[Killakobe81]

Kobe never got past Round 1 as the first option either. Even Vince has won more playoff series as the alpha than Kobe.

Kobe led a back to back Period.
Tim never led a repeat.
Tim had the better career is higher ranked on plenty of "lists"
Tim has the better advanced metrics ...

Yet still never led a repeat. those are all FACTS.
You can say a repeat doesnt matter, team accomplishment etc.
Still a fact.

[Clipper Nation]

Kobe led a back to back Period.
Tim never led a repeat.
Tim had the better career is higher ranked on plenty of "lists"
Tim has the better advanced metrics ...

Yet still never led a repeat. those are all FACTS.
You can say a repeat doesnt matter, team accomplishment etc.
Still a fact.
The only repeat Kobe ever led was repeatedly missing the playoffs. Oh, and back-to-back first-round exits in his prime, including the time he blew a 3-1 lead against Steve N:lolsh and the choking Suns.

Shaq and MVPau, on the other hand? Those guys can say they led championship repeats.

[Killakobe81]

The only repeat Kobe ever led was repeatedly missing the playoffs. Oh, and back-to-back first-round exits in his prime, including the time he blew a 3-1 lead against Steve N:lolsh and the choking Suns.

Shaq and MVPau, on the other hand? Those guys can say they led championship repeats.

predictable is as predictable does.

[Thread]

Kobe led a back to back Period
Tim never led a repeat.