Shooters, Shooters and more shooters

[coachmac87]

It was really the downfall of our team last year tbh. Spurs weren't a consistent threat and by that I mean attempts. When the Spurs had the "beautiful game" they launched 3's like crazy. When defenses are forced to close out on shooters it creates chaos for a defense. Player pump fakes or holds and penetrates which creates help...which then leads to a pass to another open player who can do the same. Chaos.

It's what makes GSW so lethal....you're forced to close out so aggressively that it opens lanes for drive and kick/ball movement which leads to open shots. Spurs didn't have shooters last year and I'm hoping that Simmons, Anderson, and even Parker keep expanding and gaining confidence with their 3 ball...Green, Kawhi, Mills, Bertans, all capable 40% shooters. And even Aldridge can become a threat tbh. I thought he'd shoot more 3's but he was on the block. Hopefully with Gasol he can roam the premiter a little more.

Bring the 3ball back

[All Mighty Janitor]

Yes. We still have to play to our strengths tho which is post ups. Can't play to fast.

[Spurtacular]

LMA is not as good a passer or screener as Tiago. The ball movement suffered. Many wondered if the Spurs would actually be worse. There's a case to be made.

[cutewizard]

LMA is not as good a passer or screener as Tiago. The ball movement suffered. Many wondered if the Spurs would actually be worse. There's a case to be made.


-----------------------------------------

hope Lamarcus improves his understanding of the Spurs offense this offseason

[Obstructed_View]

The Spurs of 2012-2014 may be the best pick and roll team of all time. The three pointer isn't the first option, however. The three pointer is how you punish teams for cheating down or the reward for successfully getting the defense out of position. The success in hitting those threes was that they were off passes and in rhythm. The Spurs still have the discipline not to shoot bad threes, but they had several hundred fewer good opportunities because they ran so much isolation. A lot depends on Gasol and Aldridge, and whether they want to roll to the basket. If Anderson's three is legit this year, he and Bertans will make a big difference as well.

[Raven]

it was a pop decision.

[ceperez]

The Spurs of 2012-2014 may be the best pick and roll team of all time. The three pointer isn't the first option, however. The three pointer is how you punish teams for cheating down or the reward for successfully getting the defense out of position. The success in hitting those threes was that they were off passes and in rhythm. The Spurs still have the discipline not to shoot bad threes, but they had several hundred fewer good opportunities because they ran so much isolation. A lot depends on Gasol and Aldridge, and whether they want to roll to the basket. If Anderson's three is legit this year, he and Bertans will make a big difference as well.

Hit the nail on the head, if Anderson and Bertans 3's are legit then Spurs have enough fire power to maybe edge out GSW.

[Spurtacular]

-----------------------------------------

hope Lamarcus improves his understanding of the Spurs offense this offseason

He sets half ass screens on purpose so that he gets the ball back on the pop. I think it is what it is.

[DeRozan m8]

Hit the nail on the head, if Anderson and Bertans 3's are legit then Spurs have enough fire power to maybe edge out GSW.

We're relying on fathead now? Great... We are doomed

[K...]

We're relying on fathead now? Great... We are doomed

There are too many Kyle haters. Can't you let the dumber posters fullfill that role?

[tholdren]

-----------------------------------------

hope Lamarcus improves his understanding of the Spurs offense this offseason
It's not the understanding - he's fat, slow, and doesn't like contact.

[FkLA]

http://www.nba.com/media/hoop/Bonner20110303b.jpg

[DeRozan m8]

There are too many Kyle haters. Can't you let the dumber posters fullfill that role?

I honestly don't want to hate him...

[Sean Cagney]

LMA is not as good a passer or screener as Tiago. The ball movement suffered. Many wondered if the Spurs would actually be worse. There's a case to be made.

That would be relevant if Tiago could actually stay on the floor at all, last year another example. He just can't stay healthy at all, his downfall.

[Spurtacular]

That would be relevant if Tiago could actually stay on the floor at all, last year another example. He just can't stay healthy at all, his downfall.

I would trade for him back if the Hawks lose faith in him.

[kobyz]

We have Forbes now who could be a better Bellinelli cause he's not a bonehead player like Marco...

[Sean Cagney]

I would trade for him back if the Hawks lose faith in him.

I would not, he can't play near a full season. To each his own there. I would definitely not lose LMA though for him, no way.

[spursmvp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5gfj_j4U50

[Raven]

We're relying on fathead now? Great... We are doomed

pretty sure it's about time to rely on younger guys.

[MaNu4Tres]

OP doesn't understand what got shooters open from 12'-15' oppose to 16'.

[coachmac87]

OP doesn't understand what got shooters open from 12'-15' oppose to 16'.

Please elaborate

[dabom]

Please elaborate

Our playmakers got old. They couldn't do it anymore at a championship level and we had to rely on ISOs by our best players. Every team wants to be 2014 Spurs including us. We just don't have the pieces anymore because of age.

[coachmac87]

Our playmakers got old. They couldn't do it anymore at a championship level and we had to rely on ISOs by our best players. Every team wants to be 2014 Spurs including us. We just don't have the pieces anymore because of age.

That's part of the reason..still waiting for homeboy to say something before I go in...

[dabom]

And when Kawhi is forced to create, that takes a 3 point shooter away from the wings. Less space for him to operate really.

[MaNu4Tres]

That's part of the reason..still waiting for homeboy to say something before I go in...

Homeboy. That's cute.

I've posted about it in many threads.

From 2012-2015 Spurs had a big man rotation of Splitter, TD and Diaw. Splitter & TD were damn solid, effective rollers in PNRs for the Spurs' offense from 12'-15'. Having a roller/diver in PNRs for most of the 48 minutes ( Duncan or Splitter was always in the game), created so many opportunities for the weakside shooters because the perimeter defense on the weakside had to respect and rotate over towards the lane whenever Splitter or Duncan rolled after most picks they set. It's a big reason why the Greens, Mills, Leonards, Manus, Neals would go off even in half-court sets. Having effective rollers makes the defense move, and making the defense move is what gives passing a purpose -- it keeps the defense off balance and keeping the defense off-balance is what creates wide open looks for the shooters who usually put in their work spotting up on the weakside.

This past year, you witnessed a lot of meaningless passing to guys who were guarded because the weakside defense never had to move most of the time as teams were giving away the long 2 Pick and Pop to West and Aldridge. Especially with the bench and having West, Diaw in together. West hurt the weakside 3 point attempts because he never rolled and wasn't ever going to be an effective roller anyway -- so he pick and popped from long two and teams were happy with that all day long because the weakside defense got to rest and optimally take away the potential open weakside three point attempts. Diaw used to create open 3 point attempts with his abliity to spread the floor and pick N pop from 3, but last year he lost all confidence in his shot -- and he turned into just a dribble hand off option from the pick N pops he was involved in (which was a shot clock killer). As for the starters, Spurs no longer had the dives of Splitter, and Duncan was unable to dive effectively once his knee went out in December. With David West and Aldridge getting most of the minutes when it mattered, Spurs then had most of the 48 minutes of PnPop long 2 bigs ( instead of PnR divers). Having 48 minutes of mostly Pick N Pop long 2 offense gives the weakside defense an easy out, as they don't have to rotate over towards the painted area. The weakside perimeter defense gets to stay at home on their man -- which takes away the open weakside 3 point attempts that the Spurs usually had in the years before.

As the season went on, Pop started getting on Aldridge to incorporate dives more often -- which he did with some relative success. But it didn't help much because Pop relied a lot on West and Wests skillset and action from the PnR's never was going to create the best looks in basketball for his teammates ( layups/dunks, or wide open 3's). It's a reason why the bench or overall offense didn't look the same against stiff and smart competition. The stiff competition funneled most of the action to West/Aldridge long 2's and the defense took away the shots that have the most value (wide open 3's, dunks/layups).

This is where I think Dedmon is going to help the Spurs more than people realize is because he is a very effective diver and probably a better finisher than Splitter was. The weak-side shooters in the game with him should have many wide open opportunities.

While having shooters, shooters, shooters seems to be the answer to the average poster, it won't mean much against the best teams if Spurs don't have the personnel in the interior who create the opportunities with their actions without the ball. Dedmons' skill-set will help the shooters more than the average poster realizes.

Hopefully you learned something today for your next podcast.

[TD 21]

Good post, but the lack of a high end break down player and knockdown three-point shooters are glaring, even with better roll men.

The starters can probably mostly overcome it with their size, ability to post up, rebound and defend, but with the possible exception of rebounding, the bench doesn't possess any of those things.

Anderson and Simmons are poor off ball players, who will mostly have to be just that playing next to Ginobili. In essence, they'll be small just for the sake of it, as they'll lack the main benefit typically associated with it.

[MaNu4Tres]

Good post, but the lack of a high end break down player and knockdown three-point shooters are glaring, even with better roll men.

The starters can probably mostly overcome it with their size, ability to post up, rebound and defend, but with the possible exception of rebounding, the bench doesn't possess any of those things.

Anderson and Simmons are poor off ball players, who will mostly have to be just that playing next to Ginobili. In essence, they'll be small just for the sake of it, as they'll lack the main benefit typically associated with it.

To be fair, Spurs never had a great break-down player on the perimeter during the run in 14' with the beautiful game -- Parker had been declining since he hurt his hammy in the 13' Finals. Sure an elite break down player would have been outstanding to add, but that wasn't able to happen. ( I was hoping for an upgrade on Mills with Teague but ATL received a better offer than what the Spurs could have offered or did offer -- we don't know)

However, the Spurs struggled to get off clean looks from 3 last year with Kawhi, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker all getting the bulk of the minutes on the perimeter (same guys as 14' -- some have regressed since then but I think not having an effective diver made it extra harder on them -- they simply weren't getting the same looks as those years prior and there was a lot of meaningless passing). While Anderson, Simmons are obviously not the best shooters or off-ball players, they also barely played when it counted last year ( so they're sort of irrelevant). This year they will have to improve their shooting or Bertans will be stealing their limited minutes. Anderson and Simmons may be irrelevant again when it matters because I can see Pop utilizing a 3 big and 3, maybe 4 wing, 2 PG rotation when competition is tight.

Next year, SA will have a better opportunity to obtain a decent play-maker from the perimeter as the FA market and draft is loaded with PGs.

[TD 21]

To be fair, Spurs never had a great break-down player on the perimeter during the run in 14' with the beautiful game -- Parker had been declining since he hurt his hammy in the 13' Finals. Sure an elite break down player would have been outstanding to add, but that wasn't happening.

However, the Spurs struggled from 3 last year with Kawhi, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker all getting the bulk of the minutes on the perimeter (same guys as 14' -- some have regressed since then but I think last year made it extra harder on them by not getting to play with an effective roll man in PnRs -- they simply weren't getting the same looks as those years prior). While Anderson, Simmons are obviously not the best shooters, they also barely played when it counted last year ( so they're sort of irrelevant). This year they will have to improve their shooting or Bertans will be stealing their minutes.

Next year, SA will have a better opportunity to obtain a decent play-maker from the perimeter as the FA market and draft is loaded with PGs.

They didn't, but Parker and Ginobili were good enough when they had to be and that team literally played at the highest level of any playoff team ever, which made any would be issue moot.

They actually didn't really struggle from 3 last year. They were 2nd in percentage, but it almost didn't matter, because they were 25th/26th in makes/attempts.

No stretch four or off the bench designated wing sniper, were the reasons for this and neither issue has been addressed, unless Bertans emerges as a rotation player at some point.

Jean-Charles, is by all accounts a wasted spot and it puts them in a bind because now they only have 2 spots left and they probably have to prioritize 2 bigs that can play some over another wing shooter.

[MaNu4Tres]

They didn't, but Parker and Ginobili were good enough when they had to be and that team literally played at the highest level of any playoff team ever, which made any would be issue moot.

They actually didn't really struggle from 3 last year. They were 2nd in percentage, but it almost didn't matter, because they were 25th/26th in makes/attempts.

No stretch four or off the bench designated wing sniper, were the reasons for this and neither issue has been addressed, unless Bertans emerges as a rotation player at some point.

Jean-Charles is by all accounts a wasted spot and it puts them in a bind because now they only have 2 spots left and they probably have to prioritize 2 bigs that can play some over another wing shooter.

Yeah I edited my last post and posted they struggled to get off the amount of clean looks as years prior. Didn't mean percentage wise. But that also further backs my explanation regarding how tough it was last year for the shooters to find open 3 point opportunities playing with PnPop long 2 bigs majority of the time compared to previous years playing with effective divers.

[Spurs9]

:pop: we are loaded at shooting with bonner

[ceperez]

They didn't, but Parker and Ginobili were good enough when they had to be and that team literally played at the highest level of any playoff team ever, which made any would be issue moot.

They actually didn't really struggle from 3 last year. They were 2nd in percentage, but it almost didn't matter, because they were 25th/26th in makes/attempts.

No stretch four or off the bench designated wing sniper, were the reasons for this and neither issue has been addressed, unless Bertans emerges as a rotation player at some point.

Jean-Charles, is by all accounts a wasted spot and it puts them in a bind because now they only have 2 spots left and they probably have to prioritize 2 bigs that can play some over another wing shooter.

That's just it about last season, Spurs did not take a lot 3's. You can't win in this NBA without launching a lot of 3's. Just is not happening.

Launching 3's has for the longest time the secret weapon of the Spurs to keep in games despite having average offensive talent.

[tonight...you]

That's just it about last season, Spurs did not take a lot 3's. You can't win in this NBA without launching a lot of 3's. Just is not happening.

Launching 3's has for the longest time the secret weapon of the Spurs to keep in games despite having average offensive talent.
The attempts definitely have to pick up next year.

[coachmac87]

Homeboy. That's cute.

I've posted about it in many threads.

From 2012-2015 Spurs had a big man rotation of Splitter, TD and Diaw. Splitter & TD were damn solid, effective rollers in PNRs for the Spurs' offense from 12'-15'. Having a roller/diver in PNRs for most of the 48 minutes ( Duncan or Splitter was always in the game), created so many opportunities for the weakside shooters because the perimeter defense on the weakside had to respect and rotate over towards the lane whenever Splitter or Duncan rolled after most picks they set. It's a big reason why the Greens, Mills, Leonards, Manus, Neals would go off even in half-court sets. Having effective rollers makes the defense move, and making the defense move is what gives passing a purpose -- it keeps the defense off balance and keeping the defense off-balance is what creates wide open looks for the shooters who usually put in their work spotting up on the weakside.

This past year, you witnessed a lot of meaningless passing to guys who were guarded because the weakside defense never had to move most of the time as teams were giving away the long 2 Pick and Pop to West and Aldridge. Especially with the bench and having West, Diaw in together. West hurt the weakside 3 point attempts because he never rolled and wasn't ever going to be an effective roller anyway -- so he pick and popped from long two and teams were happy with that all day long because the weakside defense got to rest and optimally take away the potential open weakside three point attempts. Diaw used to create open 3 point attempts with his abliity to spread the floor and pick N pop from 3, but last year he lost all confidence in his shot -- and he turned into just a dribble hand off option from the pick N pops he was involved in (which was a shot clock killer). As for the starters, Spurs no longer had the dives of Splitter, and Duncan was unable to dive effectively once his knee went out in December. With David West and Aldridge getting most of the minutes when it mattered, Spurs then had most of the 48 minutes of PnPop long 2 bigs ( instead of PnR divers). Having 48 minutes of mostly Pick N Pop long 2 offense gives the weakside defense an easy out, as they don't have to rotate over towards the painted area. The weakside perimeter defense gets to stay at home on their man -- which takes away the open weakside 3 point attempts that the Spurs usually had in the years before.

As the season went on, Pop started getting on Aldridge to incorporate dives more often -- which he did with some relative success. But it didn't help much because Pop relied a lot on West and Wests skillset and action from the PnR's never was going to create the best looks in basketball for his teammates ( layups/dunks, or wide open 3's). It's a reason why the bench or overall offense didn't look the same against stiff and smart competition. The stiff competition funneled most of the action to West/Aldridge long 2's and the defense took away the shots that have the most value (wide open 3's, dunks/layups).

This is where I think Dedmon is going to help the Spurs more than people realize is because he is a very effective diver and probably a better finisher than Splitter was. The weak-side shooters in the game with him should have many wide open opportunities.

While having shooters, shooters, shooters seems to be the answer to the average poster, it won't mean much against the best teams if Spurs don't have the personnel in the interior who create the opportunities with their actions without the ball. Dedmons' skill-set will help the shooters more than the average poster realizes.

Hopefully you learned something today for your next podcast.

And how is my OP about getting more shooters and continue expanding Parker, Simmons and Anderson 3ball wrong? Let's be real Spurs went from a high PNR team with Parker to a wing Iso with Aldridge and even Kawhi. Aldrige and Kawhi while very good at scoring against their man..setting up others and passing out of double teams aren't their strongest suits.

Aldridge really hurt the change of philosophy but something had to be done due to Parker inconsistent play and decline. But again I dunno why you assumed I dunno what I'm talking about due to my OP. Spurs need more shooters and Parker needs to become a better threat off the ball.

Good thing it took you 4hrs to make your point. Didn't prove anything tbh other than you're a dick:lol

[coachmac87]

And if you read my OP you'd understand I said ATTEMPTS of 3's is the biggest issue. Spurs shot 350+ less 3's this year. And 250+ less from the year before when they won the ship.

[benfti]

Patty shooting it pretty well so far in the Olympic build up games, bodes well, he historically plays well in the years he comes off national team duty.

[MaNu4Tres]

And how is my OP about getting more shooters and continue expanding Parker, Simmons and Anderson 3ball wrong? Let's be real Spurs went from a high PNR team with Parker to a wing Iso with Aldridge and even Kawhi. Aldrige and Kawhi while very good at scoring against their man..setting up others and passing out of double teams aren't their strongest suits.

That's where you're wrong, again. Even though they ran ISO more than they had done in recent years, Spurs still ran more high PnR last year than ISO ball -- they ran high PnR consistency with Parker and Leonard handling the ball and they ended up reverting to ISO more often than usual because they weren't able to get off the open looks they were accustom to on the weakside because of the reasons I already mentioned.


But again I dunno why you assumed I dunno what I'm talking about due to my OP. Spurs need more shooters and Parker needs to become a better threat off the ball.

Because you don't know what you're talking about it. You're saying Spurs need more shooters from 3, when in reality that wasn't the problem last year. The problem was the offense couldn't manufacturer the same amount of wide open looks as previous years more so because of the reasons I explained. You never explained those reasons.


Good thing it took you 4hrs to make your point. Didn't prove anything tbh other than you're a dick:lol

Was this your way of going in? This homeboy had a pretty busy day, it actually took me 20 minutes to write that up.

[coachmac87]

That's where you're wrong, again. Even though they ran ISO more than they had done in recent years, Spurs still ran more high PnR last year than ISO ball -- they ran high PnR consistency with Parker and Leonard handling the ball and they ended up reverting to ISO more often than usual because they weren't able to get off the open looks they were accustom to on the weakside because of the reasons I already mentioned.



Because you don't know what you're talking about it. You're saying Spurs need more shooters from 3, when in reality that wasn't the problem last year. The problem was the offense couldn't manufacturer the same amount of wide open looks as previous years more so because of the reasons I explained. You never explained those reasons.



Was this your way of going in? This homeboy had a pretty busy day, it actually took me 20 minutes to write that up.

It's Aldridge. We both can agree on that right? But did they run more PNR than year past? No they didn't... Duncan decline and Parker having to play off the ball made the offensive unit struggle. What you're saying about the roller is true but having players like Simmons/Anderson playing off the ball hurts..especially ehrn you had someone like Belli the year before. If they can't play off the ball Parker, Anderson, Simmons must become threats at shooting the 3.

[coachmac87]

It's obviously a combination of a lot of things. Spurs as a team needed to adjust especially Parker. Hopefully the chemistry improves and the younger guys continue expanding their games and maybe just maybe Bertans can be something meaningful this year.

[coachmac87]

Again how was my OP wrong?? Do the Spurs not need more shooters? Or will a "roller" solve everything?

[MaNu4Tres]

It's Aldridge. We both can agree on that right? But did they run more PNR than year past? No they didn't... Duncan decline and Parker having to play off the ball made the offensive unit struggle. What you're saying about the roller is true but having players like Simmons/Anderson playing off the ball hurts..especially ehrn you had someone like Belli the year before. If they can't play off the ball Parker, Anderson, Simmons must become threats at shooting the 3.

Belinelli receives more credit than he deserves. Sure he was productive in the minutes he was able to carve out during the many lopsided victories Spurs were able to have that magical season, but the truth is he was the least important player on the wing that entire run. The only times Beli received more than 12 minutes a night in the playoffs was when the Spurs had a 20 point lead. The main perimeter core that run was Leonard, Green and Manu at the wings and Parker and Patty at point guard ( same as last year). I agree Anderson and Simmons' off-ball play is below average because they aren't consistent shooters, but that wasn't the problem when it mattered because they barely even played. Spurs still relied on the same Leonard, Green, Manu, Parker, and Patty core as they did in 2014 -- but with Anderson getting limited spot minutes when competition was tight ( like Belinelli did). This next year, there's a chance Anderson and Simmons will be irrelevant again when it matters because I can see Pop going to a 3 big ( Aldridge, Gasol, Dedmon), 3 -- maybe 4 wing ( Kawhi, Green, Manu, Bertans), 2 point guard ( Parker, Patty) rotation in the playoffs when competition is tight.

What it all boils down to is how the top 8-9 players in the rotation can manufacturer the most valuable shots in basketball. Dedmons' skill-set will give those top 5 wings in the rotation more open looks than last years' David West did. Sure depth is nice during the course of the long regular season, but the players 10-15 aren't going to be the ones who win games in May and June -- they will barely play.

[dabom]

It's Aldridge. We both can agree on that right? But did they run more PNR than year past? No they didn't... Duncan decline and Parker having to play off the ball made the offensive unit struggle. What you're saying about the roller is true but having players like Simmons/Anderson playing off the ball hurts..especially ehrn you had someone like Belli the year before. If they can't play off the ball Parker, Anderson, Simmons must become threats at shooting the 3.

You're not getting it man. I'd suggest to take the loss on this one.

[MaNu4Tres]

Again how was my OP wrong?? Do the Spurs not need more shooters? Or will a "roller" solve everything?

Spurs were 2nd in the league in 3 point % last year. They shot it well when they had the opportunities. The problem was they weren't able to manufacturer the same amount of 3 point shots as years before because they didn't have an effective diver creating those looks for the weakside and they also didn't have an effective PnPop 3 PF like Diaw ( he lost his confidence in his shot last year).

Having more shooters won't solve the problem of manufacturing better or more looks more often. Their shooters will again be Leonard, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker and maybe Bertans when it matters, maybe Anderson as well. But the heavy minutes and the shooters who matter the most are the ones in the top 8-9 in the rotation (Leonard, Green, Mills, Manu, Parker).

[coachmac87]

Belinelli receives more credit than he deserves. Sure he was productive in the minutes he was able to carve out during the many lopsided victories Spurs were able to have that magical season, but the truth is he was the least important player on the wing that entire run. The only times Beli received more than 12 minutes a night in the playoffs was when the Spurs had a 20 point lead. The main perimeter core that run was Leonard, Green and Manu at the wings and Parker and Patty at point guard ( same as last year). I agree Anderson and Simmons' off-ball play is below average because they aren't consistent shooters, but that wasn't the problem when it mattered because they barely even played. Spurs still relied on the same Leonard, Green, Manu, Parker, and Patty core as they did in 2014 -- but with Anderson getting limited spot minutes when competition was tight ( like Belinelli did). This next year, there's a chance Anderson and Simmons will be irrelevant again when it matters because I can see Pop going to a 3 big ( Aldridge, Gasol, Dedmon), 3 -- maybe 4 wing ( Kawhi, Green, Manu, Bertans), 2 point guard ( Parker, Patty) rotation in the playoffs when competition is tight.

What it all boils down to is how the top 8-9 players in the rotation can manufacturer the most valuable shots in basketball. Dedmons' skill-set will give those top 5 wings in the rotation more open looks than last years' David West did. Sure depth is nice during the course of the long regular season, but the players 10-15 aren't going to be the ones who win games in May and June -- they will barely play.

Belli > Anderson last year and it's not even close when looking what they brought to the offense. It's all about maximizing space on the floor..Belli was obviously tremendous off the ball running off screens etc.

[coachmac87]

Spurs were 2nd in the league in 3 point % last year. They shot it well when they had the opportunities. The problem was they weren't able to manufacturer the same amount of 3 point shots as years before because they didn't have an effective diver creating those looks for the weakside and they also didn't have an effective PnPop 3 PF like Diaw ( he lost his confidence in his shot last year).

Having more shooters won't solve the problem of manufacturing better or more looks more often. Their shooters will again be Leonard, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker and maybe Bertans when it matters, maybe Anderson as well. But the heavy minutes and the shooters who matter the most are the ones in the top 8-9 in the rotation (Leonard, Green, Mills, Manu, Parker).

Never said it wasn't about percentages. Again read the OP. It's about attempts and having legit threats out there to honor.

[MaNu4Tres]

Belli > Anderson last year and it's not even close when looking what they brought to the offense. It's all about maximizing space on the floor..Belli was obviously tremendous off the ball running off screens etc.

That's not what I'm arguing. Belinelli was better than Anderson but Beli and Anderson were still the least important players in the entire playoff rotation for both 2014 and 2016 teams. Belinelli had the smallest role in close meaningful games, same for Anderson.

[MaNu4Tres]

Never said it wasn't about percentages. Again read the OP. It's about attempts and having legit threats out there to honor.

But you've been implying adding more shooters is the answer to getting more 3 point attempts. That's not the answer.

[coachmac87]

Again I'm not disagreeing with the "roller" concept. You're absolutely right. Having somebody to honor on the roll helps..but look at GSW for example...having threats who can shoot from 3 creates space and can actually help your roller.

[coachmac87]

But you've been implying adding more shooters is the answer to getting more 3 point attempts. That's not the answer.

It's part of it. Why did they ask for Simmons and Anderson to work on their shooting? Shooting helps with everything and it's arguably one of the most important aspects of today's NBA...hence small ball and stretch 4's becoming a bigger deal. Rolling bigs help too but the roller isn't much of s worry if you don't have shooters to honor. It goes hand in hand

[MaNu4Tres]

Again I'm not disagreeing with the "roller" concept. You're absolutely right. Having somebody to honor on the roll helps..but look at GSW for example...having threats who can shoot from 3 creates space and can actually help your roller.

Golden State had Bogut, Ezeli, and Draymond -- who were all elite rollers and it really helped their weakside 3 point attempts as their shooters would go off -- much like the 2012-2014 Spurs. I'm actually looking forward to seeing West getting a bulk of Bogut/ Ezeli minutes ( Teams will be able to defend the 3 point line better on the weak-side because they won't have to rotate or move as often as previous years. Weak-side perimeter D will be able to stay at home more than usual and the defense involved in the PnR are going to give West that long 2 every time). Bogut and confident Ezeli really helped Golden State's offense more than the casual fan believes.

[MaNu4Tres]

It's part of it. Why did they ask for Simmons and Anderson to work on their shooting? Shooting helps with everything and it's arguably one of the most important aspects of today's NBA...hence small ball and stretch 4's becoming a bigger deal. Rolling bigs help too but the roller isn't much of s worry if you don't have shooters to honor. It goes hand in hand

They want all their players to improve -- Anderson and Simmons have a chance to play more minutes this next year if they make a leap, but they'd still have to win minutes over the top 8-9 guys in the rotation to be relevant when it matters. Anderson and Simmons were irrelevant last year when it mattered ( they barely played when in close games or playoffs), and they likely will be irrelevant again when it matters this next year.

The roller/diver like Dedmon implemented into the offense and the relevant rotation ( top 8-10) is going to help manufacture great looks for the overall offense when it matters. The guys outside of the playoff rotation ( players 10-15), will not.

[coachmac87]

Golden State had Bogut, Ezeli, and Draymond -- who were all elite rollers and it really their weakside 3 point attempts as their shooters would go off -- much like the 2012-2014 Spurs. I'm actually looking forward to seeing West getting a bulk of Bogut/ Ezeli minutes ( Teams will be able to defend the 3 point line better on the weak-side because they won't have to rotate or move as often as previous years. Weak-side perimeter D will be able to stay at home more than usual and the defense involved in the PnR are going to give West that long 2 every time). Bogut and confident Ezeli really helped Golden State's offense more than the casual fan believes.


GSW wants to play small. Look at their death line up for example Curry-Klay-KD-Iggy-Green(FUCKING A) ALL can shoot from 3. You think they worried about a roller??? No.

Roller does help and you've made great points to back it up but without shooters you can cheat to help on the roller..

[MaNu4Tres]

GSW wants to play small. Look at their death line up for example Curry-Klay-KD-Iggy-Green(FUCKING A) ALL can shoot from 3. You think they worried about a roller??? No.

Roller does help and you've made great points to back it up but without shooters you can cheat to help on the roller..

Anyone can see they like to play small, but they can't play small all game. West will have significant role for 18-20 minutes for the team instead of Bogut. Replacing West for Bogut during those stints will be a positive for the opposition.

I agree that having shooters around the roller is important, but Spurs will again have the same shooters/ wings as they've had for the past 3-4 years getting just about all of the minutes when it matters. Having Dedmon implemented instead of West should manufacturer more open looks from three for the Leonard, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker core -- much like Splitter did for them from 12-14 (15' he was limited w/ injuries). Adding more shooters won't solve that problem to getting more looks. It just adds depth to fill in the irrelevant gaps during the season.

[Blackjack]

'Tres on point, per par. :tu

But I will say, Coach isn't off point in his last post. Opportunities for spacing the floor come from either physically having to defend a legitimate threat to score inside, a legitimate - proven - threat you can't cheat off of, ot some combination of both.

To say they need more "shooters", while not too off-base, is too simplistic.

The Spurs need to get to the bucket more often. They've lost that threat as Tim broke down and Tony lost that elite quickness.

No matter what's going on in the league, however it's trending, history tells us the higher percentage shots you take, the better the result - the closer you get to the basket, tge more dominant you become.

Because, when that happens, decent shooters become really good... and good shooters become great - they're shooting shots the likes of their warm-ups and practice.

Teams have lacked the personnel to play the inside-out-game with the league's dearth of bigmen. Look what the Thunder did to GS before going in the tank...

The blueprint is out there, and it pre-dates anything GS has done. The Spurs need a few pieces - a combination of acquisition and player(s) panning out - and a shit-ton of leadership, but they're a lot closer than I think some are realizing.

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see this next year - which I never would've expected after seeing Tim walk away.

[coachmac87]

Anyone can see they like to play small, but they can't play small all game. West will have significant role for 18-20 minutes for the team instead of Bogut. Replacing West for Bogut during those stints will be a positive for the opposition.

I agree that having shooters around the roller is important, but Spurs will again have the same shooters/ wings as they've had for the past 3-4 years getting just about all of the minutes when it matters. Having Dedmon implemented instead of West should manufacturer more open looks from three for the Leonard, Green, Manu, Mills, Parker core -- much like Splitter did for them from 12-14 (15' he was limited w/ injuries). Adding more shooters won't solve that problem to getting more looks. It just adds depth to fill in the irrelevant gaps during the season.

I think Gasol being a legit offensive threat rolling or popping something Duncan couldn't do anymore will help a lot. Dedmond should help as a roller but he's more of a lob type. Dedmon can roll for lobs but he needs to prove he can catch, finish around the rim and not always above it and most importantly pass out of the roll..something Tiago did well

[MaNu4Tres]

'Tres on point, per par. :tu

But I will say, Coach isn't off point in his last post. Opportunities for spacing the floor come from either physically having to defend a legitimate threat to score inside, a legitimate - proven - threat you can't cheat off of, ot some combination of both.

To say they need more "shooters", while not too off-base, is too simplistic.

The Spurs need to get to the bucket more often. They've lost that threat as Tim broke down and Tony lost that elite quickness.

No matter what's going on in the league, however it's trending, history tells us the higher percentage shots you take, the better the result - the closer you get to the basket, tge more dominant you become.

Because, when that happens, decent shooters become really good... and good shooters become great - they're shooting shots the likes of their warm-ups and practice.

Teams have lacked the personnel to play the inside-out-game with the league's dearth of bigmen. Look what the Thunder did to GS before going in the tank...

The blueprint is out there, and it pre-dates anything GS has done. The Spurs need a few pieces - a combination of acquisition and player(s) panning out - and a shit-ton of leadership, but they're a lot closer than I think some are realizing.

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see this next year - which I never would've expected after seeing Tim walk away.

Hey sweetheart, hope all is well mucca!

Having a diver in PnR's with shooters around the diver makes the defense move. When the defense is having to move, rotate, and recover constantly the lanes to get to the basket get wider as the defense begins to break after each purposeful pass.

Last year, the opposing defense involved in the PnPop would funnel the pass to West, while perimeter weakside defense just stayed at home on the shooters. There was limited movement in the defense and each pass had less of a purpose because they were just passing to guarded players while the defense remained balanced. It became extremely tough to produce great looks or open looks in general because Spurs don't have and haven't had great one on one players on the perimeter to break down a defense like prime Manu or prime Parker.

Having an effective diver surrounded by good shooters creates the best shots in basketball ( layups, dunks or corner/ wide open 3's). As the ball is being moved with those components in place, the defense has to move and cover a lot of ground -- this is when the defense breaks and lanes get wider and wider to get to the hoop -- even for the Danny Greens. Dedmon should help more than people realize. IMO

Not to change the subject, but my fiance is in love with your daughter by the way, she saw a few pics on FB lol. I'm really excited for this next season as well. Should be fun turning the page, and seeing how the team gels.

[coachmac87]

'Tres on point, per par. :tu

But I will say, Coach isn't off point in his last post. Opportunities for spacing the floor come from either physically having to defend a legitimate threat to score inside, a legitimate - proven - threat you can't cheat off of, ot some combination of both.

To say they need more "shooters", while not too off-base, is too simplistic.

The Spurs need to get to the bucket more often. They've lost that threat as Tim broke down and Tony lost that elite quickness.

No matter what's going on in the league, however it's trending, history tells us the higher percentage shots you take, the better the result - the closer you get to the basket, tge more dominant you become.

Because, when that happens, decent shooters become really good... and good shooters become great - they're shooting shots the likes of their warm-ups and practice.

Teams have lacked the personnel to play the inside-out-game with the league's dearth of bigmen. Look what the Thunder did to GS before going in the tank...

The blueprint is out there, and it pre-dates anything GS has done. The Spurs need a few pieces - a combination of acquisition and player(s) panning out - and a shit-ton of leadership, but they're a lot closer than I think some are realizing.

Personally, I'm pretty excited to see this next year - which I never would've expected after seeing Tim walk away.

GSW has to play someone in the WCF...and if we get the 2 seed it should be us. I'd like to think most here think we're good enough to make it that far and if so we at least have a shot to make it to the Finals...that's real all you can ask for.

[Blackjack]

Hey sweetheart, hope all is well mucca!

Having a diver in PnR's with shooters around the diver makes the defense move. When the defense is having to move, rotate, and recover constantly the lanes to get to the basket get wider as the defense begins to break after each purposeful pass.

Last year, the opposing defense involved in the PnPop would funnel the pass to West, while perimeter weakside defense just stayed at home on the shooters. There was limited movement in the defense and each pass had less of a purpose because they were just passing to guarded players while the defense remained balanced. It became extremely tough to produce great looks or open looks in general because Spurs don't have and haven't had great one on one players on the perimeter to break down a defense like prime Manu or prime Parker.

Having an effective diver surrounded by good shooters creates the best shots in basketball ( layups, dunks or corner/ wide open 3's). As the ball is being moved with those components in place, the defense has to move and cover a lot of ground -- this is when the defense breaks and lanes get wider and wider to get to the hoop -- even for the Danny Greens.

'Jack still 'Jack, mucca. :smokin

All valid points, very solid posts. TD 21, as well. Ain't posting like I used to, but I'm still lurking.

Love seeing good back-and-forths. It's what made SpursTalk better than anywhere else. And even as much shit as some want to talk, I've been lurking or posting here since '01 or '02. Still the best place to go for Spurs-related talk/news - even if you have to sift a little more nowadays. :lol

Props to all of you that still bring the goods. :tu

[Blackjack]

GSW has to play someone in the WCF...and if we get the 2 seed it should be us. I'd like to think most here think we're good enough to make it that far and if so we at least have a shot to make it to the Finals...that's real all you can ask for.

Agree.

Really, on paper it would seem that the Spurs could very well get there with an acquisition of a rotation-player and some internal improvement. Tim's loss is really the biggest question mark - how will this team navigate the ups and downs of the season without their backbone of the last 19 years?

Plenty of teams had the talent to do what the Spurs have done consistently year-in-and-year-out, but have failed to do so because they lacked the stabilizing force of leadership that Tim always provided.

Plenty of Xs and Os to delve into. The leadership thing? It's not quantifiable. Definitely has me intrigued to see what's going to happen this upcoming year.

[MaNu4Tres]

'Jack still 'Jack, mucca. :smokin

All valid points, very solid posts. TD 21, as well. Ain't posting like I used to, but I'm still lurking.

Love seeing good back-and-forths. It's what made SpursTalk better than anywhere else. And even as much shit as some want to talk, I've been lurking or posting here since '01 or '02. Still the best place to go for Spurs-related talk/news - even if you have to sift a little more nowadays. :lol

Props to all of you that still bring the goods. :tu

:lol yeah a few guys who cover the Spurs have bitched about ST a few times on Twitter. Twitter is far worse than ST, there's more crap on there than I've seen on here. The egos for some of those journalist/bloggers who cover the Spurs is bigger than it should be lol... most are good people though, J-Mac, Jabari, Tom O, Paul Garcia, De Leon, Jeff Garcia to name a few.

[Blackjack]

:lol yeah a few guys who cover the Spurs have bitched about ST a few times on Twitter. Twitter is far worse than ST, there's more crap on there than I've seen on here. The egos for some of those journalist/bloggers who cover the Spurs is bigger than it should be lol... most are good people though, J-Mac, Jabari, Tom O, Paul Garcia, De Leon, Jeff Garcia to name a few.

Well, to be fair, some of those guys have some pretty shitty takes. Which, in turn, has them getting shat upon here. :lol

In all honesty, I think this place has made them better. They've actually had to learn about the business of the game and intricacies that used to go unnoticed. ST has some really sick fucks that I love the hell out of for their devotion to this team and the time they put in. You don't come strong, you're probably getting your feelings hurt. :lol

I wrote with some of the guys you mentioned for a while. Very happy for them - a few more sick fucks I heart - and a little jealous I didn't stick with it to make a career out of it the way they did. :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Homeboy. That's cute.

I've posted about it in many threads.

From 2012-2015 Spurs had a big man rotation of Splitter, TD and Diaw. Splitter & TD were damn solid, effective rollers in PNRs for the Spurs' offense from 12'-15'. Having a roller/diver in PNRs for most of the 48 minutes ( Duncan or Splitter was always in the game), created so many opportunities for the weakside shooters because the perimeter defense on the weakside had to respect and rotate over towards the lane whenever Splitter or Duncan rolled after most picks they set. It's a big reason why the Greens, Mills, Leonards, Manus, Neals would go off even in half-court sets. Having effective rollers makes the defense move, and making the defense move is what gives passing a purpose -- it keeps the defense off balance and keeping the defense off-balance is what creates wide open looks for the shooters who usually put in their work spotting up on the weakside.

This past year, you witnessed a lot of meaningless passing to guys who were guarded because the weakside defense never had to move most of the time as teams were giving away the long 2 Pick and Pop to West and Aldridge. Especially with the bench and having West, Diaw in together. West hurt the weakside 3 point attempts because he never rolled and wasn't ever going to be an effective roller anyway -- so he pick and popped from long two and teams were happy with that all day long because the weakside defense got to rest and optimally take away the potential open weakside three point attempts. Diaw used to create open 3 point attempts with his abliity to spread the floor and pick N pop from 3, but last year he lost all confidence in his shot -- and he turned into just a dribble hand off option from the pick N pops he was involved in (which was a shot clock killer). As for the starters, Spurs no longer had the dives of Splitter, and Duncan was unable to dive effectively once his knee went out in December. With David West and Aldridge getting most of the minutes when it mattered, Spurs then had most of the 48 minutes of PnPop long 2 bigs ( instead of PnR divers). Having 48 minutes of mostly Pick N Pop long 2 offense gives the weakside defense an easy out, as they don't have to rotate over towards the painted area. The weakside perimeter defense gets to stay at home on their man -- which takes away the open weakside 3 point attempts that the Spurs usually had in the years before.

As the season went on, Pop started getting on Aldridge to incorporate dives more often -- which he did with some relative success. But it didn't help much because Pop relied a lot on West and Wests skillset and action from the PnR's never was going to create the best looks in basketball for his teammates ( layups/dunks, or wide open 3's). It's a reason why the bench or overall offense didn't look the same against stiff and smart competition. The stiff competition funneled most of the action to West/Aldridge long 2's and the defense took away the shots that have the most value (wide open 3's, dunks/layups).

This is where I think Dedmon is going to help the Spurs more than people realize is because he is a very effective diver and probably a better finisher than Splitter was. The weak-side shooters in the game with him should have many wide open opportunities.

While having shooters, shooters, shooters seems to be the answer to the average poster, it won't mean much against the best teams if Spurs don't have the personnel in the interior who create the opportunities with their actions without the ball. Dedmons' skill-set will help the shooters more than the average poster realizes.

Hopefully you learned something today for your next podcast.

Not this horseshit again.

1) Even the best defensive teams like GS and Toronto would rotate help over on LMA pnp foor all your 'good defenses don't do that' ideology.
2) LMA is a + roll man as well not to mention he can put the ball on the floor against closeouts. This notion that Splitter was a better offensive player is ignorant.
3) Youre ignoring the 300 lbs gorilla in the room which was Duncan's decline. If anything the LMA pnp supplanted what Duncan did in 2014. His lack of mobility has impacted Duncan's ability to roll since 2011 or so. He also started bricking his own pnp which were a staple in 2014 for him. Recall the elbow jumper? Recall all the bricks and shanks last year.
4) Danny, Kawhi, Patty and even Tony got a ton of open looks on the weakside. The main issue is that until the playoffs, Verde couldn't throw a stone in the ocean and Patty still has yet to regain his form. Nevermind prime bench shooter Belli was not replaced.
5) West replaced Baynes or Ayers and while Baynes' jumper on his pnp was good, his hands on the roll were extremely suspect. He turned the ball over quite a bit. Ayers was just godawful.
6) Boris mailing it in didn't help either.

What stagnated the offense was Kawhi emerging as a scorer yett lacking the ability to anticipate and distribute. He would overdribble and forceup bad shots pretty regularly; LMA not knowing all the reads and counters would also stop the ball a lot. They're not supposed to hold on the ball yet LMA would be extremely tentative and you could tell he was thinking too much. Splitter took 3 years to figure it out so I'm not particularly worried.

[MaNu4Tres]

Well, to be fair, some of those guys have some pretty shitty takes. Which, in turn, has them getting shat upon here. :lol

In all honesty, I think this place has made them better. They've actually had to learn about the business of the game and intricacies that used to go unnoticed. ST has some really sick fucks that I love the hell out of for their devotion to this team and the time they put in. You don't come strong, you're probably getting your feelings hurt. :lol

I wrote with some of the guys you mentioned for a while. Very happy for them - a few more sick fucks I heart - and a little jealous I didn't stick with it to make a career out of it the way they did. :lol

You speak the truth. The suck up, journalism snobs I don't care for -- guys like Tynan, Preine are Pop yes men and won't acknowledge any legitimate debate that conflicts with their take --if you're not a writer then there's no respect. Which won't lose me any sleep. I just found it funny how Tynan went on a Spurstalk rant the other day. I can name at least 20 guys on this site or guys who have posted since 06' that know a shit load more about the game than he does.

[dabom]

Not this horseshit again.

1) Even the best defensive teams like GS and Toronto would rotate help over on LMA pnp foor all your 'good defenses don't do that' ideology.
2) LMA is a + roll man as well not to mention he can put the ball on the floor against closeouts. This notion that Splitter was a better offensive player is ignorant.
3) Youre ignoring the 300 lbs gorilla in the room which was Duncan's decline. If anything the LMA pnp supplanted what Duncan did in 2014. His lack of mobility has impacted Duncan's ability to roll since 2011 or so. He also started bricking his own pnp which were a staple in 2014 for him. Recall the elbow jumper? Recall all the bricks and shanks last year.
4) Danny, Kawhi, Patty and even Tony got a ton of open looks on the weakside. The main issue is that until the playoffs, Verde couldn't throw a stone in the ocean and Patty still has yet to regain his form. Nevermind prime bench shooter Belli was not replaced.
5) West replaced Baynes or Ayers and while Baynes' jumper on his pnp was good, his hands on the roll were extremely suspect. He turned the ball over quite a bit. Ayers was just godawful.
6) Boris mailing it in didn't help either.

What stagnated the offense was Kawhi emerging as a scorer yett lacking the ability to anticipate and distribute. He would overdribble and forceup bad shots pretty regularly; LMA not knowing all the reads and counters would also stop the ball a lot. They're not supposed to hold on the ball yet LMA would be extremely tentative and you could tell he was thinking too much. Splitter took 3 years to figure it out so I'm not particularly worried.

Wrong you stupid fuck. :lol

Go watch more basketball. :lmao

[dabom]

TBh I never listen to beat reporters. They aren't there to tell you the bad part of the story. They want you to keep watching. What better ways than to keep telling you what you wanna here. Trolls eat that shit up. Fathead being a good player. :lol

[dabom]

Kawhi had a .300WS/48 in the playoffs. No one in the whole series came close. West or Durant. He also made WestGOD look mortal. :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wrong you stupid fuck. :lol

Go watch more basketball. :lmao

For all the pnr that Kawhi ran his assists and passing still needs work. His usage increased dramatically yet his assist totals remained the same. He's come a long way since even the year before in that regard but he still has a lot of room to improve. Seeing that he has every year to this point already I see more of the same.

I love Leonard and watching him grow has been a joy to watch but he is far from perfect, fanboi.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Kawhi had a .300WS/48 in the playoffs. No one in the whole series came close. West or Durant. He also made WestGOD look mortal. :lol

He was an extremely efficient scorer. This is not a surprise but the ball still stopped with him and he could have generated many more assists. 2005 Manu is the prototype for passing ability in this offense.

[dabom]

For all the pnr that Kawhi ran his assists and passing still needs work. His usage increased dramatically yet his assist totals remained the same. He's come a long way since even the year before in that regard but he still has a lot of room to improve. Seeing that he has every year to this point already I see more of the same.

I love Leonard and watching him grow has been a joy to watch but he is far from perfect, fanboi.

I never said he was perfect. But you clearly stated he was part of the problem. :lmao

Without him, this team is 7th/8th seed fodder. The problem lies elsewhere, faggot. :lmao

[dabom]

He was an extremely efficient scorer. This is not a surprise but the ball still stopped with him and he could have generated many more assists. 2005 Manu is the prototype for passing ability in this offense.

Manu also wasn't tasked to be the focal point of the defense either, faggot. :lmao

Apples to oranges. Bad comparisons here. :lmao

[dabom]

I could drop another diss track cause you taking for ever, faggot.

[dabom]

All I know is our offense only players didn't perform. Kawhi gets an A++. Your team needs to show up too.

[ElNono]

This is all good stuff, but there's really basic stuff that fired up my "Pop is officially done..." thread last season, and is seeing shit like Pop putting Manu to guard Westbrook...

I'm probably the #1 Manu fan in here, but stuff like that is not just ridiculous at this point in time, but sickening. You can't pretend a 38/39 year old in the twilight of his career to matchup to that athletic beast. Pop somehow did.

I don't know what kind of wine he was drinking during that series, but if he goes back to it, all this talk about shooters and Kawhi, LMA... Dedmon... it doesn't matter.

I'm actually hoping the realization that Tim isn't walking through that door anymore actually removes him from seemingly some sort of auto-pilot he's been on since 2014. It took a catastrophic loss in the Finals to get his attention, hopefully one positive thing that comes from Tim retiring, is Pop waking the fuck up again.

[MaNu4Tres]

Not this horseshit again.

1) Even the best defensive teams like GS and Toronto would rotate help over on LMA pnp foor all your 'good defenses don't do that' ideology.
2) LMA is a + roll man as well not to mention he can put the ball on the floor against closeouts. This notion that Splitter was a better offensive player is ignorant.
3) Youre ignoring the 300 lbs gorilla in the room which was Duncan's decline. If anything the LMA pnp supplanted what Duncan did in 2014. His lack of mobility has impacted Duncan's ability to roll since 2011 or so. He also started bricking his own pnp which were a staple in 2014 for him. Recall the elbow jumper? Recall all the bricks and shanks last year.
4) Danny, Kawhi, Patty and even Tony got a ton of open looks on the weakside. The main issue is that until the playoffs, Verde couldn't throw a stone in the ocean and Patty still has yet to regain his form. Nevermind prime bench shooter Belli was not replaced.
5) West replaced Baynes or Ayers and while Baynes' jumper on his pnp was good, his hands on the roll were extremely suspect. He turned the ball over quite a bit. Ayers was just godawful.
6) Boris mailing it in didn't help either.

What stagnated the offense was Kawhi emerging as a scorer yett lacking the ability to anticipate and distribute. He would overdribble and forceup bad shots pretty regularly; LMA not knowing all the reads and counters would also stop the ball a lot. They're not supposed to hold on the ball yet LMA would be extremely tentative and you could tell he was thinking too much. Splitter took 3 years to figure it out so I'm not particularly worried.

Your comprehension is terrible and most of these takes are wrong.

Teams never just leave players open without any effort to contest, they contest to some degree -- you can still contest shots you want the offense to take.

1) Irrelevant with my take. The weakside perimeter D is never the guy(s) who would rotate to the PnPop PF like they would rotate to defend the paint for divers. The player who would rotate to Aldridge or West was usually the big involved in the PnR who hedged and recovered back on Aldridge/West and still contested but the good teams would hardly over contest leaving their feet. Ibaka did a few times that drew fouls but he cleaned that up as the series went on.
2) Never compared Splitter to Aldridge. Brought up the point that Aldridge started diving more towards the end of the year-- which helped. But my point remains that Spurs had 48 minutes of the Pick and Pop action having West incorporated in the overall offense along with Aldridge. West was the bigger problem because he played the 2nd most minutes out of any other big the Spurs had going into game 6.
3) I didn't ignore Duncans decline this past year, re-read the post you quoted. Duncan regained mobility the year after the Grizzlies series they lost in the 1st round and became a very effective diver -- go back and watch the games.

Here's examples of Duncan's rolling during the 14' run:

Here is one possession from PnR roll set w/ TD that still is remembered today and its all because of Duncan rolling attracting the D in the paint.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVNR8CWeoeI

Here are many different possessions showing the Spurs' ball-movement but if you notice, after every screen Duncan sets he rolls, as did Diaw and the other bigs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sedat305uCE

In 14' Pop got on TD after a few plays Duncan wanted the ball after he didn't roll. It's clear as day that Pop is telling TD to roll.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q82C22OY-t0



Lol at Duncan not being a diver/roller. It's the reason why Spurs got so many open 3 point looks during those years. Having him or Splitter in at all times and even Diaw ( he rolled a lot too) really opened up the flood gates for the 3 point opportunities.

You never watched the games I'm convinced.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Manu also wasn't tasked to be the focal point of the defense either, faggot. :lmao

Apples to oranges. Bad comparisons here. :lmao

He's been the focal point for the bench unit for about a decade. And you tell me to watch more basketball?

[dabom]

He's been the focal point for the bench unit for about a decade. And you tell me to watch more basketball?

what does this have to do with what we're talking about? :lol

[dabom]

I'm done for tonight. Go ahead with the last word. I don't care. Too tired.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Your comprehension is terrible and most of these takes are wrong.

Teams never just leave players open without any effort to contest, they contest to some degree -- you can still contest a shot you want a player to take.

1) Irrelevant with my take. The weakside perimeter D is never the guy(s) who would rotate to the PnPop PF like they would rotate to defend the paint for divers. The player who would rotate to Aldridge or West was usually the big involved in the PnR who hedged and recovered back on Aldridge/West and still contested but the good teams would hardly over contest leaving their feet. Ibaka did a few times that drew fouls but he cleaned that up as the series went on.
2) Never compared Splitter to Aldridge. Brought up the point that Aldridge started diving more towards the end of the year-- which helped. But my point remains that Spurs had 48 minutes of the Pick and Pop action having West incorporated in the overall offense along with Aldridge. West was the bigger problem because he played the 2nd most minutes out of any other big the Spurs had going into game 6.
3) I didn't ignore Duncans decline this past year, re-read the post you quoted. Duncan regained mobility the year after the Grizzlies series they lost in the 1st round and became a very effective diver -- go back and watch the games.

Here's examples of Duncan's rolling during the 14' run:

Here is one possession from PnR roll set w/ TD that still is remembered today and its all because of Duncan rolling attracting the D in the paint.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVNR8CWeoeI

Here are many different possessions showing the Spurs' ball-movement but if you notice, after every screen Duncan set he rolled, as did Diaw and the other bigs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sedat305uCE

In 14' Pop got on TD after a few plays Duncan wanted the ball after he didn't roll. It's clear as day that Pop is telling TD to roll.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q82C22OY-t0

1) When one of the primary defenders goes back to defend its called a recovery not a rotation. Again teams would still rotate to defend.
2) West replaced Baynes. Baynes was hit or miss on the catch as the roll man and much better on the pick and pop.

You should watch the tapes and try and keep up with your own arguments. Forest, tree and all that. Your myth of bigs sagging always into the paint to take away the roll man and give up the long 2 for 'good defense' is absent. Your ideology doesn't hold to reality as you have clearly demonstrated. Of course Duncan would roll when the defense hedged like that. Pretending that's not how several 'good defenses' play the pnr is pretty ignorant frankly

[FuzzyLumpkins]

what does this have to do with what we're talking about? :lol

Because he exemplifies how it's done. That was my point.

I was figuring you were saying that Manu was not in the same role offensively because that would actually be a decent argument. Instead your making shitty excuses like being a two way player means he cannot pass. Thank goodness it's not an excuse he's likely to accept.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I could drop another diss track cause you taking for ever, faggot.

If you want a real time conversation then go find a chat room. I'm multitasking.

[MaNu4Tres]

1) When one of the primary defenders goes back to defend its called a recovery not a rotation. Again teams would still rotate to defend.
2) West replaced Baynes. Baynes was hit or miss on the catch as the roll man and much better on the pick and pop.

You should watch the tapes and try and keep up with your own arguments. Forest, tree and all that. Your myth of bigs sagging always into the paint to take away the roll man and give up the long 2 for 'good defense' is absent. Your ideology doesn't hold to reality as you have clearly demonstrated. Of course Duncan would roll when the defense hedged like that. Pretending that's not how several 'good defenses' play the pnr is pretty ignorant frankly


1. I know its a recovery, I was saying the weakside perimeter defense doesn't rotate over to contest the long 2 PnPop from the PF -- its the big involved in the PnR that hedges/recovers.

2. Baynes barely played when it mattered. Pop utilized a three big rotation those years 12'-14' mainly with Splitter, Duncan, Diaw -- Baynes would get time when game was out of reach or limited spot minutes when TD or Splitter were in foul trouble. Duncan and Diaw were non-existent this past run and Pop went heavy with Aldridge and West got the 2nd most time in the rotation going into Duncans finale.


Lol you just said Duncan didn't have the mobility to dive and wasn't a diver during those years and now you're back peddling after I just proved how wrong you were.

I never once said bigs sag in the paint to take away the roll man and just stay there giving up long 2's with no effort to contest -- you're making shit up. Good defensive teams induce the pass to go to the long pick and pop two by making an emphasis with hedging the play-maker in the PnR and then recovering on the pick and Pop long 2 ( still contesting but still giving up the shot). The weak-side defense isn't involved to defend that action. The two defensive players involved in the PNR can defend it effectively enough and the defense doesn't have to move as much compared to how much they have to move when the offense has an effective play-maker, diver and shooters around them.

[GSH]

Teams never just leave players open without any effort to contest, they contest to some degree -- you can still contest shots you want the offense to take.


There were times last year when teams just stood and dared Tim to take the shot. That's just fact. If there was some little of nuance there to call a contest, it was irrelevant. There were also some times when they did just about the same thing with Danny. I even remember Sean commenting that he had "too much time to shoot that one".

For years, teams were forced to double Tim virtually all the time. Not just helping, but a lot of hard double-teams. That, plus his exceptional passing ability, got the Spurs more open 3-point looks than anything they before or since.

What FuzzyLumpkins said above about Kawhi emerging as a scorer, but not stepping up his ability to distribute? True statement. He never said the team would have been better off without him (dipshit Dabom is great about putting words in others' mouths). What he said was that Kawhi caused the offense to stagnate at times, with the over-dribbling, and forcing the ball into a crowd to finally jack up a bad shot. The fact that he makes some of those bad shots doesn't change the fact that a lot more didn't go in, and those resulted in a lot of dry possessions. Nobody's hating on him - that's just what happened.

[dabom]

Tony Porker can't defend, pass, score, rebound, steal, deflect, shoot the 3. :lmao

Yeah we should talk about Kawhi like he stagnated the offense. :lmao

[GSH]

All I know is our offense only players didn't perform. Kawhi gets an A++. Your team needs to show up too.

"That's a cocksucking call!"
"Did you call me a cocksucker?"
"No I didn't. I said it was a cocksucking call!"

http://chronicle.com/blognetwork/lesboprof/files/2011/11/Bull-durham-3.jpg

[dabom]

I should add injury prone at the most opportune times. :lmao

[MaNu4Tres]

There were times last year when teams just stood and dared Tim to take the shot. That's just fact. If there was some little of nuance there to call a contest, it was irrelevant. There were also some times when they did just about the same thing with Danny. I even remember Sean commenting that he had "too much time to shoot that one".

For years, teams were forced to double Tim virtually all the time. Not just helping, but a lot of hard double-teams. That, plus his exceptional passing ability, got the Spurs more open 3-point looks than anything they before or since.

What FuzzyLumpkins said above about Kawhi emerging as a scorer, but not stepping up his ability to distribute? True statement. He never said the team would have been better off without him (dipshit Dabom is great about putting words in others' mouths). What he said was that Kawhi caused the offense to stagnate at times, with the over-dribbling, and forcing the ball into a crowd to finally jack up a bad shot. The fact that he makes some of those bad shots doesn't change the fact that a lot more didn't go in, and those resulted in a lot of dry possessions. Nobody's hating on him - that's just what happened.

I was never talking about Tim in Pick and Pop opportunities this past year. After December, he couldn't roll effectively and every time he got the ball when he popped after setting the screen he'd immediately look to a dribble hand off option to reset the offense or to get the offense moving -- it was a time killer and an offense killer more often that not. Were their times when Tim looked for a shot out of that action? Sure, but most of the time he immediately looked to a dribble hand off option.

I never talked about Kawhi and his game. My whole point in multiple posts was about Spurs lack of a diver this past year was a big reason why Spurs weren't able to manufacturer as many open looks from 3 as the previous years. Fuzzy said that was horse shit and said TD was never a diver then pointed to Kawhi's overdribbling -- the overdribbling is true to an extent but a lot of his possessions were in PnR's and he never had an effective diver last year to create open looks on the weakside to actually make a purposeful passes. Again my argument was never about Kawhi. It was about the Spurs' offense inability to make the defense move, the weakside defense especially. The only way to break down a defense without a premier perimeter creator is to get the defense to move and the only way to get the defense to move collectively is to make the weak-side opportuntiies relevant again. Having 48 minutes of Pick and Pop action isn't conducive to ball-movement and weak-side action.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

1. I know its a recovery, I was saying the weakside perimeter defense doesn't rotate over to contest the long 2 PnPop from the PF -- its the big involved in the PnR that hedges/recovers.

2. Baynes barely played when it mattered. Pop utilized a three big rotation those years 12'-14' mainly with Splitter, Duncan, Diaw -- Baynes would get time when game was out of reach or limited spot minutes when TD or Splitter were in foul trouble. Duncan and Diaw were non-existent this past run and Pop went heavy with Aldridge and West got the 2nd most time in the rotation going into Duncans finale.


Lol you just said Duncan didn't have the mobility to dive and wasn't a diver during those years and now you're back peddling after I just proved how wrong you were.

I never once said bigs sag in the paint to take away the roll man and just stay there giving up long 2's with no effort to contest -- you're making shit up. Good defensive teams induce the pass to go to the long pick and pop two by making an emphasis with hedging the play-maker in the PnR and then recovering on the pick and Pop long 2 ( still contesting but still giving up the shot). The weak-side defense isn't involved to defend that action. The two defensive players involved in the PNR can defend it effectively enough and the defense doesn't have to move as much compared to how much they have to move when the offense has an effective play-maker, diver and shooters around them.

1. Ideology is boring. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. Fact is that even the best statistical defense would.

2. Then Diaw taking a shit is the primary issue and nothing to do with West.

LOL thinking that when the defense hedges doubling the ballhandler on pnr leaving Duncan alone means that when he rolls to the basket it makes him a good roll man. Show me the footage of him rolling against ICE coverage.

The hedge takes away the pnp as the doubling big stays up high and is in position to take away the jumper as well as making the pnp pass hard as hell; he's right there ffs. The wide open jumper off the pnp requires the big to sag else the roll isn't taken away.

Fact is that when the defense packs the paint like they did against LMA and Parker, you need to shoot over the top. LMA has expanded his range into a 35% 3P shooter his last season in Portland. I think Pop tried to pare down the offense and keep it simple but I would not be surprised if he went back to that this year. You may get your desired 3pers after all.

[dabom]

1. Ideology is boring. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. Fact is that even the best statistical defense would.

2. Then Diaw taking a shit is the primary issue and nothing to do with West.

LOL thinking that when the defense hedges doubling the ballhandler on pnr leaving Duncan alone means that when he rolls to the basket it makes him a good roll man. Show me the footage of him rolling against ICE coverage.

The hedge takes away the pnp as the doubling big stays up high and is in position to take away the jumper as well as making the pnp pass hard as hell; he's right there ffs. The wide open jumper off the pnp requires the big to sag else the roll isn't taken away.

Fact is that when the defense packs the paint like they did against LMA and Parker, you need to shoot over the top. LMA has expanded his range into a 35% 3P shooter his last season in Portland. I think Pop tried to pare down the offense and keep it simple but I would not be surprised if he went back to that this year. You may get your desired 3pers after all.

I don't think he made a 3 last year. I never saw one atleast. :lmao

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I was never talking about Tim in Pick and Pop opportunities this past year. After December, he couldn't roll effectively and every time he got the ball when he popped after setting the screen he'd immediately look to a dribble hand off option to reset the offense or to get the offense moving -- it was a time killer and an offense killer more often that not. Were their times when Tim looked for a shot out of that action? Sure, but most of the time he immediately looked to a dribble hand off option.

I never talked about Kawhi and his game. My whole point in multiple posts was about Spurs lack of a diver this past year was a big reason why Spurs weren't able to manufacturer as many open looks from 3 as the previous years. Fuzzy said that was horse shit and said TD was never a diver then pointed to Kawhi's overdribbling -- the overdribbling is true to an extent but a lot of his possessions were in PnR's and he never had an effective diver last year to create open looks on the weakside to actually make a purposeful passes. Again my argument was never about Kawhi. It was about the Spurs' offense inability to make the defense move, the weakside defense especially. The only way to break down a defense without a premier perimeter creator is to get the defense to move and the only way to get the defense to move collectively is to make the weak-side opportuntiies relevant again. Having 48 minutes of Pick and Pop action isn't conducive to ball-movement and weak-side action.

You and your binary logic. Duncan's mobility has been severely limited this decade. That doesn't mean he cannot roll to the basket when his man leaves him to hedge hard on the ball handler or that he can never have success.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

[/B]
I don't think he made a 3 last year. I never saw one atleast. :lmao

Last season in Portland. Paring down means that he limited what LMA was to do whereas in year 2 they could very well expand. After all his last season in Portland he showed a decent proficiency at the shot.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There were times last year when teams just stood and dared Tim to take the shot. That's just fact. If there was some little of nuance there to call a contest, it was irrelevant. There were also some times when they did just about the same thing with Danny. I even remember Sean commenting that he had "too much time to shoot that one".

For years, teams were forced to double Tim virtually all the time. Not just helping, but a lot of hard double-teams. That, plus his exceptional passing ability, got the Spurs more open 3-point looks than anything they before or since.

What FuzzyLumpkins said above about Kawhi emerging as a scorer, but not stepping up his ability to distribute? True statement. He never said the team would have been better off without him (dipshit Dabom is great about putting words in others' mouths). What he said was that Kawhi caused the offense to stagnate at times, with the over-dribbling, and forcing the ball into a crowd to finally jack up a bad shot. The fact that he makes some of those bad shots doesn't change the fact that a lot more didn't go in, and those resulted in a lot of dry possessions. Nobody's hating on him - that's just what happened.

:bobo

[SAGirl]

This is all good stuff, but there's really basic stuff that fired up my "Pop is officially done..." thread last season, and is seeing shit like Pop putting Manu to guard Westbrook...

I'm probably the #1 Manu fan in here, but stuff like that is not just ridiculous at this point in time, but sickening. You can't pretend a 38/39 year old in the twilight of his career to matchup to that athletic beast. Pop somehow did.

I don't know what kind of wine he was drinking during that series, but if he goes back to it, all this talk about shooters and Kawhi, LMA... Dedmon... it doesn't matter.

I'm actually hoping the realization that Tim isn't walking through that door anymore actually removes him from seemingly some sort of auto-pilot he's been on since 2014. It took a catastrophic loss in the Finals to get his attention, hopefully one positive thing that comes from Tim retiring, is Pop waking the fuck up again.
If Pop is smart Manu will have a reduced role, spotting up more and helping guys improve rather than having to do things himself. Simmons and Dejounte are the athletes here and if they are not up to it (Simmons specially bc he's 27, a grown ass man at this point and if he doesn't show up this season he might as well not stick around. He needs to make it and will be very motivated). I disagree that it will be the same old wing rotation as always it can't be. It obviously depends on the young players improving and getting better but if they don't in reality we don't have a chance. Manu can't be the man at 39. He just can't. He should be played accordingly, not guarding the freakiest athlete and not having to be the one running PnR bc his passes are very predictable at this point.

[YGWHI]

The fact that he makes some of those bad shots doesn't change the fact that a lot more didn't go in, and those resulted in a lot of dry possessions. Nobody's hating on him - that's just what happened.

No. That's not what happened.

In fact, it was the opposite.

If you look his numbers at making tough shots, you should know how extremely effective he was, and how wrong you are about "a lot more didn't go"


What stagnated the offense was Kawhi emerging as a scorer yett lacking the ability to anticipate and distribute. He would overdribble and forceup bad shots pretty regularly
Pretty regulary? You're ignoring the fact that Kawhi had way better stats at ball handler on P&R than Parker and Manu last regular season..

But of course, he just took bad shots all season.

[DAF86]

Agree. We need shooters.

[coachmac87]

Spurs facing a team with the philosophy that I suggested back in the summer...

It's going to be interesting to see how Spurs react/adjust to Houston going even smaller with possibly adding Gordon to SL.

**I also feel this will hopefully be a personnel direction PATFO go in finding more shooters..especially to surround CP3

[MaNu4Tres]

Spurs facing a team with the philosophy that I suggested back in the summer...

It's going to be interesting to see how Spurs react/adjust to Houston going even smaller with possibly adding Gordon to SL.

**I also feel this will hopefully be a personnel direction PATFO go in finding more shooters..especially to surround CP3

They have the shooters. Its about execution and gameplan. Last night they went inside waaay too much and played big Lee/Gasol - Lee/LA combos waaaay too much. Play Bertans over Anderson.

[MaNu4Tres]

I remember this was the thread when coach called me homeboy.. and said he was waiting for " homeboy" before he was about to go in...


That was so cute coach. Love the confidence. :lol

[coachmac87]

I remember this was the thread when coach called me homeboy.. and said he was waiting for " homeboy" before he was about to go in...


That was so cute coach. Love the confidence. :lol

Yeah I sure did..LMAO


But let's not also ignore or forget that I was on to something when I created this thread..

[coachmac87]

They have the shooters. Its about execution and gameplan. Last night they went inside waaay too much and played big Lee/Gasol - Lee/LA combos waaaay too much. Play Bertans over Anderson.

If Houston is going to continue going extra small I would for sure look to play Bertans more. Question is how many minutes and who's? Spurs IMO need space the floor as much as possible to take advantage of the Rockets lack of size on defense.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

They have the shooters. Its about execution and gameplan. Last night they went inside waaay too much and played big Lee/Gasol - Lee/LA combos waaaay too much. Play Bertans over Anderson.

Why did Pop have them move away from what was working so well in Game 3? I don't get the layup drill although I imagine the Spurs were so concerned about their shooters, who ended up getting 40+ 3 point attempts on a damn good percentage.

[ElNono]

We're full of shooters that can't shoot... Danny, Patty, Kawhi, LMA, Gasol, Bertans (doesn't play)...

[SAGirl]

We're full of shooters that can't shoot... Danny, Patty, Kawhi, LMA, Gasol, Bertans (doesn't play)...
Manu...

[RD2191]

Bold OP.

[NameLess Scrub]

We're full of shooters that can't shoot... Danny, Patty, Kawhi, LMA, Gasol, Bertans (doesn't play)...

:lol :toast

[ElNono]

Manu...

:king