Tony Parker Vs Manu Ginobili...

[SASdynasty!]

Why do you hate Manu so much son?
I love Manu, but you guys are using all the wrong games to prop him up. Yah, he had a good game 7 (23/4/5), but saying the guy was unstoppable is pretty laughable when even in his best series, he was very stoppable. He didn't even shoot 50% in those Finals. No one's arguing Parker was better in that particular series, Parker had tons of others he was much better than Manu was in those Finals. But yes, that was one of Manu's better series (18.7/4.0/5.9)...he almost scored as much as Duncan that series and was almost as good, which is why he almost won a FMVP.

[Texas_Ranger]

Manu from 99-07 was a monster.

[r0drig0lac]

To be fair, I don't get the Tony hate either... before 2007, there were like 14 Tony fans in here: the frenchies Brazil, Bruno, and 12 of their alts...

He's come a long way since then...
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

[SpurOutofTownFan]

I love Manu, but you guys are using all the wrong games to prop him up. Yah, he had a good game 7 (23/4/5), but saying the guy was unstoppable is pretty laughable when even in his best series, he was very stoppable. He didn't even shoot 50% in those Finals. No one's arguing Parker was better in that particular series, Parker had tons of others he was much better than Manu was in those Finals. But yes, that was one of Manu's better series (18.7/4.0/5.9)...he almost scored as much as Duncan that series and was almost as good, which is why he almost won a FMVP.

Lol - it's hard to argue with someone who just compares numbers

[Mikeanaro]

Since this has been settled for a long time, even when we had that poll like a year ago and its common knowledge to say Manu is a much better player...
Thread should be called SASdynasty vs Manu Ginobili.

[kaji157]

Since this has been settled for a long time, even when we had that poll like a year ago and its common knowledge to say Manu is a much better player...
Thread should be called SASdynasty vs Manu Ginobili.

Manu is way better than Sasdynast, Manu dominated sasdynasty for a decade now. Even Tony knows Manu is way better than him and sasdynasty combined.

[TheGreatYacht]

^ The conversations between Manure tards :lol

Parker is better. Has better numbers, individual accomplishments, and has had better longevity over Manure. Swear to god I've never seen a non Spurs fan put Manure as a Top 50 greatest of all time, I've seen it with MVParker.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Anyone who chose Parker is a fucking retard, the lowest of the lowest in terms of intelligence, and should be pinked, banned, unbanned, unpinked, pinked and banned forever, while forbidden to discuss or express any opinion about basketball online -or anywhere else in the Milky Way- by a judge order and lashed to death by people who suffer Parkinson's because his faggotness.



[/ST off-season mode]

[SASdynasty!]

Anyone who chose Parker is a fucking retard, the lowest of the lowest in terms of intelligence, and should be pinked, banned, unbanned, unpinked, pinked and banned forever, while forbidden to discuss or express any opinion about basketball online -or anywhere else in the Milky Way- by a judge order and lashed to death by people who suffer Parkinson's because his faggotness.


[/ST off-season mode]
Lol, player fans...your name is a giveaway. Parker is a top-50 player. Manu is top-75.

Also, good content in your post. I'll take some time to consider it. Plenty of content & stats, plus you use good logic to make good points.

[SASdynasty!]

Since this has been settled for a long time, even when we had that poll like a year ago and its common knowledge to say Manu is a much better player...
Thread should be called SASdynasty vs Manu Ginobili.
The only difference being I didn't have the worst game of my career in Game 6 of the Finals.

[dabom]

There's 3 porkertards in here and they make up half the replies. :lol

[Clipper Nation]

The only difference being I didn't have the worst game of my career in Game 6 of the Finals.
You didn't get outplayed by Mario Chalmers in the Finals either, but your mancrush sure did.

[Mikeanaro]

The only difference being I didn't have the worst game of my career in Game 6 of the Finals.
I guess shooting 6 out of 23 doesnt count as the worst game of someone´s career during the same Game 6 of the Finals.

8 Turnovers could mean losing between 16 and 34 points if all those shots are good for the other team.
17 missed shots could mean giving away between 34 and 51 points if the other team counterattacks and scores during all those opportunities.

Even a first grader understands that.

[spurs10]

Manu from 99-07 was a monster. I also remember him being a monster on June 15, 2014!

[Diego20]

I guess shooting 6 out of 23 doesnt count as the worst game of someone´s career during the same Game 6 of the Finals.

8 Turnovers could mean losing between 16 and 34 points if all those shots are good for the other team.
17 missed shots could mean giving away between 34 and 51 points if the other team counterattacks and scores during all those opportunities.

Even a first grader understands that.

:toast

[Mikeanaro]

:toast
:toast

Even the biggest Porker fans knows things as they are, SASDinasty is reaching new lows, tbh.

[gambit1990]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYFJ91zcPVc

[itzsoweezee]

Boban puts up Shaq numbers on a per minute basis. Not really a good measure tool since the player with less minutes always has an advantage

Boban's played a fraction of the minutes Manu has. If Boban can keep it up over years, at 20+ minutes a game, he'll be an all-star. Not going to happen though.

[SASdynasty!]

You didn't get outplayed by Mario Chalmers in the Finals either, but your mancrush sure did.
Lol:

2013:

Parker: 15.7/6.4 on 41%
Chalmers: 10.6/2.1 on 39%

2014:

Parker: 18.0/4.6 on 48%
Chalmers: 4.4/2.8 on 33%


Hahahahahahaha outplayed!

[SASdynasty!]

I guess shooting 6 out of 23 doesnt count as the worst game of someone´s career during the same Game 6 of the Finals.

8 Turnovers could mean losing between 16 and 34 points if all those shots are good for the other team.
17 missed shots could mean giving away between 34 and 51 points if the other team counterattacks and scores during all those opportunities.

Even a first grader understands that.
Hahahaha equating a missed shot with a turnover! Talk about new lows...whatever it takes!

[Brazil]

To be fair, I don't get the Tony hate either... before 2007, there were like 14 Tony fans in here: the frenchies Brazil (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=14466), Bruno, and 12 of their alts...

He's come a long way since then...

:lol

[Mikeanaro]

Hahahaha equating a missed shot with a turnover! Talk about new lows...whatever it takes!
As I said, you are reaching new lows.

[SASdynasty!]

Can you imagine if Parker got completely outplayed by his counterpart as bad as Kobe used to outplay Ginobili?

2003 Playoffs:

Kobe: 32.3/5.0/3.7 on 43%
Ginobili: 11.7/3.2/2.5 on 51%

2004 Playoffs:

Kobe: 26.3/6.3/5.8 on 46%
Ginobili: 14.7/6.2/3.7 on 48%

2008 Playoffs:

Kobe: 29.2/5.6/3.8 on 53%
Ginobili: 12.6/3.2/3.0 on 36%

Wow.

[From Downtown]

03 and 04 Manu was a bench player and not a star yet in the NBA, how was Kobe his counterpart?

[ElNono]

Interesting how much more efficient Manu was, even in his rookie season... it's unfortunate he had a bum ankle in '08, tbh, after basically dragging us past the Hornets with his 26 points in game 7...

[Mikeanaro]

New lows, tbh.

[TheGreatYacht]

Can you imagine if Parker got completely outplayed by his counterpart as bad as Kobe used to outplay Ginobili?

2003 Playoffs:

Kobe: 32.3/5.0/3.7 on 43%
Ginobili: 11.7/3.2/2.5 on 51%

2004 Playoffs:

Kobe: 26.3/6.3/5.8 on 46%
Ginobili: 14.7/6.2/3.7 on 48%

2008 Playoffs:

Kobe: 29.2/5.6/3.8 on 53%
Ginobili: 12.6/3.2/3.0 on 36%

Wow.
Pathetic. Manure was more of Rick Fox's enemy tbh... This comparison is just embarrassing :lol

[Diego20]

Can you imagine if Parker got completely outplayed by his counterpart as bad as Kobe used to outplay Ginobili?

2003 Playoffs:

Kobe: 32.3/5.0/3.7 on 43%
Ginobili: 11.7/3.2/2.5 on 51%

2004 Playoffs:

Kobe: 26.3/6.3/5.8 on 46%
Ginobili: 14.7/6.2/3.7 on 48%

2008 Playoffs:

Kobe: 29.2/5.6/3.8 on 53%
Ginobili: 12.6/3.2/3.0 on 36%

Wow.

Manu had better %FG 2 out of 3 :lol

TP P.E.R playoffs :cry 6,5 :cry

[dbreiden83080]

More dangerous on any given night Manu.

More consistent. Tony.

[beirmeistr]

More dangerous on any given night Manu.

More consistent. Tony.

greater wrist strength, tp, from all his dribbling

[SASdynasty!]

Manu had better %FG 2 out of 3 :lol

TP P.E.R playoffs :cry 6,5 :cry
2003: 8% greater, 20.6 less PPG
2004: 2% greater, 11.6 less PPG
2008: 17% less, 16.6 less PPG

[Diego20]

2003: 8% greater, 20.6 less PPG
2004: 2% greater, 11.6 less PPG
2008: 17% less, 16.6 less PPG

On how many FGA? lol TP tard stop trolling

TP P.E.R playoffs :cry 6,5 :cry

[Pocho La Pantera]

6,5 lol

[cutewizard]

Pop's body language says it all...............

HE TRUSTS MANU MORE..............

[DAF86]

Can you imagine if Parker got completely outplayed by his counterpart as bad as Kobe used to outplay Ginobili?

2003 Playoffs:

Kobe: 32.3/5.0/3.7 on 43%
Ginobili: 11.7/3.2/2.5 on 51%

2004 Playoffs:

Kobe: 26.3/6.3/5.8 on 46%
Ginobili: 14.7/6.2/3.7 on 48%

2008 Playoffs:

Kobe: 29.2/5.6/3.8 on 53%
Ginobili: 12.6/3.2/3.0 on 36%

Wow.

Damn, Manu coming up huge on his rookie season to finally get the Spurs over the Lakers hump. Difference maker since day 1. :hat

[SASdynasty!]

Damn, Manu coming up huge on his rookie season to finally get the Spurs over the Lakers hump. Difference maker since day 1. :hat
I will say this...he did score 0.5 more PPG than Bowen in that series, not bad. Also, one of the very few playoff series he shot 50%.

[DAF86]

I will say this...he did score 0.5 more PPG than Bowen in that series, not bad. Also, one of the very few playoff series he shot 50%.

Dude, just accept the fact that Manu is the better player and stop being so butthurt. :lol

[SASdynasty!]

Dude, just accept the fact that Manu is the better player and stop being so butthurt. :lol
Ok I will accept your statisticless argument.

[DAF86]

Ok I will accept your statisticless argument.

Oh, I can throw stats right in your face. And stats that have proven to be more indicative of what happens in the court than raw numbers. But you know all about these, you just prefer to ignore them to keep going with your agenda.

[SASdynasty!]

Oh, I can throw stats right in your face. And stats that have proven to be more indicative of what happens in the court than raw numbers. But you know all about these, you just prefer to ignore them to keep going with your agenda.
And you know that the consensus (outside of Parker-hating Spurstalk) is that Tony is a better player with a better resume. He did more on the court against the best players in the league for 15 years and probably has several more. He's a FMVP (Manu's not), 6x All-Star (coach voted) to Manu's 2, 4x All-NBA to Manu's 2, and has records that Manu will never come close to (All-time playoff scoring point guard). His raw stats are superior, his PER 36 stats are superior, he shoots better from the field, turns it over less, and dishes the ball more (even on a per-minute basis). His peak is better (2 top-6 MVP votes and was leading the race up to the end of the season in 2013 before he got injured, and has 2 other top-12 finishes). This is the kind of stuff Manu will never be able to touch. The only thing Manu has is certain advanced stat advantages that are fully due to playing against second units.

[DAF86]

And you know that the consensus (outside of Parker-hating Spurstalk) is that Tony is a better player with a better resume. He did more on the court against the best players in the league for 15 years and probably has several more. He's a FMVP (Manu's not), 6x All-Star (coach voted) to Manu's 2, 4x All-NBA to Manu's 2, and has records that Manu will never come close to (All-time playoff scoring point guard). His raw stats are superior, his PER 36 stats are superior, he shoots better from the field, turns it over less, and dishes the ball more (even on a per-minute basis). His peak is better (2 top-6 MVP votes and was leading the race up to the end of the season in 2013 before he got injured, and has 2 other top-12 finishes). This is the kind of stuff Manu will never be able to touch. The only thing Manu has is certain advanced stat advantages that are fully due to playing against second units.

No, it isn't. :lol

Yeah, Tony has better NBA raw stats and more individual accolades (mainly from playing more than Manu), but the consensus among most NBA folks clearly is that Manu is the better player. As it should be.

[ViceCity86]

Manu never got enough minutes played during his prime years.

[beirmeistr]

And you know that the consensus (outside of Parker-hating Spurstalk) is that Tony is a better player with a better resume. He did more on the court against the best players in the league for 15 years and probably has several more. He's a FMVP (Manu's not), 6x All-Star (coach voted) to Manu's 2, 4x All-NBA to Manu's 2, and has records that Manu will never come close to (All-time playoff scoring point guard). His raw stats are superior, his PER 36 stats are superior, he shoots better from the field, turns it over less, and dishes the ball more (even on a per-minute basis). His peak is better (2 top-6 MVP votes and was leading the race up to the end of the season in 2013 before he got injured, and has 2 other top-12 finishes). This is the kind of stuff Manu will never be able to touch. The only thing Manu has is certain advanced stat advantages that are fully due to playing against second units.
Manu has something that is very elusive for foreign players playing against the U.S. in the Olympics----a big fat gold medal

[kaji157]

And you know that the consensus (outside of Parker-hating Spurstalk) is that Tony is a better player with a better resume. He did more on the court against the best players in the league for 15 years and probably has several more. He's a FMVP (Manu's not), 6x All-Star (coach voted) to Manu's 2, 4x All-NBA to Manu's 2, and has records that Manu will never come close to (All-time playoff scoring point guard). His raw stats are superior, his PER 36 stats are superior, he shoots better from the field, turns it over less, and dishes the ball more (even on a per-minute basis). His peak is better (2 top-6 MVP votes and was leading the race up to the end of the season in 2013 before he got injured, and has 2 other top-12 finishes). This is the kind of stuff Manu will never be able to touch. The only thing Manu has is certain advanced stat advantages that are fully due to playing against second units.

We´ll see in some years when Manu will be first ballot HOF and Tony wont.

[SASdynasty!]

We´ll see in some years when Manu will be first ballot HOF and Tony wont.
LOL, please. Tony is higher on every ranking list I've seen: ESPN All-Time 100, SLAM 500, SI, ISH, etc. etc. And he has plenty of years to boost his resume and extend his records.

[Mikeanaro]

:rollin

[From Downtown]

They're both first ballot HOFs
Tony has better stats and more individual accolades in the NBA, Manu is HOF worthy for this alone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBnw6I9p_4Q

[TheGreatYacht]

They're both first ballot HOFs
Tony has better stats and more individual accolades in the NBA, Manu is HOF worthy for this alone:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBnw6I9p_4Q
Carlos Arroyo beat that Team USA as well :lmao doesn't make him a hall of famer

:lol Carlos Boozer
:lol Richard Jefferson
:lol Emeka Okafor
:lol Stephon Marbury
:lol Shawn Marion
:lol Lamar Odom
:lol young Melo, Lebron, Wade, Amare
:lol Allen Iverchuck

[TheGreatYacht]

Beating the weakest Team USA ever is his biggest accomplishment :lol

Jamal Crawford is more individually accomplished at the NBA level than Manure :lol

[From Downtown]

When did Carlos Arroyo lead his team to an Olympic gold exactly?

[TheGreatYacht]

When did Carlos Arroyo lead his team to an Olympic gold exactly?
Just letting you know how terrible the competition was that year :lol

Arroyo and co. blew Team USA out

[From Downtown]

Just letting you know how terrible the competition was that year :lol

Arroyo and co. blew Team USA out
The USA were supposed to win (I mean Iverson, Amar'e, Wade, James, Melo, Timmy...not really scrubs) and they didn't, and worst USA team or not that's the only time it's happened since NBA players are allowed to play, and just the 5th time since the modern Olympic games exist
That is HOF worthy

[TheGreatYacht]

The USA were supposed to win (I mean Iverson, Amar'e, Wade, James, Melo, Timmy...not really scrubs) and they didn't, and worst USA team or not that's the only time it's happened since NBA players are allowed to play, and just the 5th time since the modern Olympic games exist
That is HOF worthy
Is Carlos Arroyo HOF worthy?

[From Downtown]

Is Carlos Arroyo HOF worthy?
Did he do it in the Semifinals and then won the gold?

[Diego20]

Is Carlos Arroyo HOF worthy?

where was TP in 2004? :cry

[kaji157]

where was TP in 2004? :cry

Waiting for other 4 NBA players so he could win something with France.

[TheGreatYacht]

Waiting for other 4 NBA players so he could win something with France.
Yup just like Manure had Scola, Delfino, Nacioni, and Prigioni

[kaji157]

Yup just like Manure had Scola, Delfino, Nacioni, and Prigioni

None of the were nba at the moment

[Pocho La Pantera]

TGY swallowing cum as usual. Boring

[SASdynasty!]

Is Carlos Arroyo HOF worthy?
Hahaha, I forgot that a Carlos Arroyo-led Puerto Rico beat us by 20 in those olympics. The US is 40-0 in the last 5 Olympics, besides 2004 where we were 5-3. Wow, that team must have been bad.

[Diego20]

Yup just like Manure had Scola, Delfino, Nacioni, and Prigioni

face palm

[Clipper Nation]

Hahaha, I forgot that a Carlos Arroyo-led Puerto Rico beat us by 20 in those olympics. The US is 40-0 in the last 5 Olympics, besides 2004 where we were 5-3. Wow, that team must have been bad.
Still better than France that year.

[Clipper Nation]

Yup just like Manure had Scola, Delfino, Nacioni, and Prigioni
Porker had Diaw, Tariq Abdul-Wahad, and Jerome Moiso (all NBA players) in 2003-04, plus notable Euroleague players like Florent Piétrus, Laurent Foirest, and Cyril Julian. They came into EuroBasket 2003 as the favorites, choked, and failed to even qualify for the Olympics :lol

It's no coincidence that France stopped winning medals at the Olympics once Porker joined the team. Pre-Porker, they won the silver medal in 2000. Once Porker joined in 2001, it's been a big nothingburger ever since. Just more evidence that Tony the Hutt is a massive team cancer.

[z0sa]

Regular season: Tp.
Post season: Manu.

[J_Paco]

Regular season: Tp.
Post season: Manu.



Exactly, and more importantly Spurs with 4 NBA championships (with Tony/Manu as the backcourt) while both are headed to the HOF. Plus, they have the added bonus of being the greatest foreign backcourt in NBA history if not in general.....

I wonder if people realize the Spurs with just Manu and Tony (without no Timmy) would be the Toronto Raptors. Both are better than those two, but Timmy (and to a lesser extent Pop) was the linchpin and biggest difference maker.

[Arcadian]

Porker was exposed as a bum once he lost his burst of speed ala Ty Lawson.:wakeup

We all knew that would happen. Obviously his game was very speed-dependent. The relevant question is, when he had his speed, how did he compare with Manu at his best on offense?

[daslicer]

This was obvious a troll thread created by the OP to hate on Parker. Parker was basically an undersized 2 guard playing the 1 position but that's not really a knock against Parker considering the league is now full of these type of players. Chris Paul is probably the only natural PG in today's NBA. Before his decline Parker was the best PG I have ever seen to be able to drive and get inside the paint. I think he even lead the league a few times in most points scored in the paint. Parker gets knocked for his playoff performances but in the last 25 years there have been only 4 PG's that have played 50 plus playoff games and shot a higher percentage in the playoffs than Parker. Those 4 PG's are Nash,Stockton, Kevin Johnson, CP3. The PG position is the easiest position to guard in basketball and hence it's rare to see a PG lead championship team.

Manu was also amazing for his position. Great ball handling, passing, driving, athletic ability. The only knock I can really say against Manu was that he was injury prone. No way he would have lasted as long as he did if he didn't play for the Spurs. Spurs always had to monitor his minutes during the regular season to make sure he wouldn't get hurt. I'am definitely convinced his career would have ended earlier if he was asked to be a number 1 option on some other team.

In conclusion both were elite at their positions at one point of time in their careers. Both had flaws. One was inconsistent during the playoffs and the other one was fragile as glass when it came to injuries.

[Mikeanaro]

This was obvious a troll thread created by the OP to hate on Parker. Parker was basically an undersized 2 guard playing the 1 position but that's not really a knock against Parker considering the league is now full of these type of players. Chris Paul is probably the only natural PG in today's NBA. Before his decline Parker was the best PG I have ever seen to be able to drive and get inside the paint. I think he even lead the league a few times in most points scored in the paint. Parker gets knocked for his playoff performances but in the last 25 years there have been only 4 PG's that have played 50 plus playoff games and shot a higher percentage in the playoffs than Parker. Those 4 PG's are Nash,Stockton, Kevin Johnson, CP3. The PG position is the easiest position to guard in basketball and hence it's rare to see a PG lead championship team.

Manu was also amazing for his position. Great ball handling, passing, driving, athletic ability. The only knock I can really say against Manu was that he was injury prone. No way he would have lasted as long as he did if he didn't play for the Spurs. Spurs always had to monitor his minutes during the regular season to make sure he wouldn't get hurt. I'am definitely convinced his career would have ended earlier if he was asked to be a number 1 option on some other team.

In conclusion both were elite at their positions at one point of time in their careers. Both had flaws. One was inconsistent during the playoffs and the other one was fragile as glass when it came to injuries.
Fragile as glass people dont play pro basketball at age 40, you make it sound like Manu is Greg Oden 2.0.

[Mikeanaro]

We all knew that would happen. Obviously his game was very speed-dependent. The relevant question is, when he had his speed, how did he compare with Manu at his best on offense?
Not good, Parker always had the floater and a decent mid shot... that was it, lots of shots with low FG% and a dive of stats in the playoffs, now take his speed away and his lack of interest to pass the ball= fucked.

[daslicer]

Fragile as glass people dont play pro basketball at age 40, you make it sound like Manu is Greg Oden 2.0.

He was fragile as glass. Out of the big 3 he missed more games than Duncan and Parker. Manu played only 80 percent of regular season games career wise compared to Parker who played 87 percent and Duncan who played 89 percent. Which means 20 percent of time Manu wasn't available to play. Manu also had freak injuries that either took him out of the playoffs are limited his effectiveness. He suffered that arm injury before the 2011 playoffs that paved the way for the Grizzlies to upset the spurs. He also had that freakish ankle injury in the '08 playoffs against the Suns which killed the spurs chances of repeating. Then he missed the '09 playoffs completely with a broken ankle. No way to spin it Manu was injury prone. With Manu you just never know what type of injury will occur ala getting his balls broken by Ryan Anderson. This is a guy historically who finds different ways to get injured. If he wasn't a spur I would laugh at him because it is comical. I like Manu but that will always be the biggest knock on him.

[ElNono]

lol @ the "fragile" narrative still surfacing when the dude is still producing above league average at age 39... for those that actually seen the "human pinball machine" in his early 20s, the most optimist prognostication was that he'll be done by his late 20's considering the how hard he was going on every play (and a big reason why Pop toned down his minutes). The biggest knock on Manu is probably that, that he never knew how to play in "safe mode", he only played one way: hard. At least until he got older and changed his game pretty dramatically, and still is able to impact the game, although in a different way. He missed just one playoffs in his entire 14-season career due to injury.

He's in the top 30 all-time in minutes played in the playoffs. This is for a guy with "limited minutes" and coming largely from the bench. So comparing to TD or TP, it might not look that great, but when you compare to the league overall, that's pretty impressive.

[Pocho La Pantera]

Injury prone due to his style of play.

[Mikeanaro]

He was fragile as glass. Out of the big 3 he missed more games than Duncan and Parker. Manu played only 80 percent of regular season games career wise compared to Parker who played 87 percent and Duncan who played 89 percent. Which means 20 percent of time Manu wasn't available to play. Manu also had freak injuries that either took him out of the playoffs are limited his effectiveness. He suffered that arm injury before the 2011 playoffs that paved the way for the Grizzlies to upset the spurs. He also had that freakish ankle injury in the '08 playoffs against the Suns which killed the spurs chances of repeating. Then he missed the '09 playoffs completely with a broken ankle. No way to spin it Manu was injury prone. With Manu you just never know what type of injury will occur ala getting his balls broken by Ryan Anderson. This is a guy historically who finds different ways to get injured. If he wasn't a spur I would laugh at him because it is comical. I like Manu but that will always be the biggest knock on him.
Biggest knock on the Spurs too, tbh... without Manu they could not even win a series.

[beirmeistr]

He was fragile as glass. Out of the big 3 he missed more games than Duncan and Parker. Manu played only 80 percent of regular season games career wise compared to Parker who played 87 percent and Duncan who played 89 percent. Which means 20 percent of time Manu wasn't available to play. Manu also had freak injuries that either took him out of the playoffs are limited his effectiveness. He suffered that arm injury before the 2011 playoffs that paved the way for the Grizzlies to upset the spurs. He also had that freakish ankle injury in the '08 playoffs against the Suns which killed the spurs chances of repeating. Then he missed the '09 playoffs completely with a broken ankle. No way to spin it Manu was injury prone. With Manu you just never know what type of injury will occur ala getting his balls broken by Ryan Anderson. This is a guy historically who finds different ways to get injured. If he wasn't a spur I would laugh at him because it is comical. I like Manu but that will always be the biggest knock on him.
Manu is tough as nails. His only fault, if you can call it a fault, is that he plays with such a comprtitive spirit that he sacrifices his body with such competitiveness. When was the last year when you saw parker take a hard charge? If Manu was fragile, he would have been out of the NBA at age 30. Pop has commended him for his competitiveness many times.

[daslicer]

Manu is tough as nails. His only fault, if you can call it a fault, is that he plays with such a comprtitive spirit that he sacrifices his body with such competitiveness. When was the last year when you saw parker take a hard charge? If Manu was fragile, he would have been out of the NBA at age 30. Pop has commended him for his competitiveness many times.

Him being fragile has nothing to do with his competitiveness. It's just the way his body is built. If he didn't play for the Spurs he would have been out of the league by now. He was only able to play 2 regular seasons in his career of 30 plus minutes are more. That fact shows me he was pretty fragile. Pop had to to preserve his minutes to limit the chances of him getting hurt.

[daslicer]

Biggest knock on the Spurs too, tbh... without Manu they could not even win a series.

:lol What are you talking about they won a quite few playoff series without him from '97-'02. Spoken like a bandwagon fan. The times they couldn't win without him was when Duncan was past his prime and suffering from knee problems which was after '08.

[mookie2001]

Thread is ridiculous. Manu and his Fragile-self had a prime of one year. Then spent the rest of his career fouling dirk, coming off the bench, getting hurt and throwing turnovers

[Mikeanaro]

:lol What are you talking about they won a quite few playoff series without him from '97-'02. Spoken like a bandwagon fan. The times they couldn't win without him was when Duncan was past his prime and suffering from knee problems which was after '08.
I was talking about Big 3´s era what the fuck is wrong in your head???????

[daslicer]

I was talking about Big 3´s era what the fuck is wrong in your head???????

:lol You didn't say that. This is what you said "Biggest knock on the Spurs too, tbh... without Manu they could not even win a series." You have poor reading comprehension skills but I'm not surprised.

[TheGreatYacht]

Thread is ridiculous. Manu and his Fragile-self had a prime of one year. Then spent the rest of his career fouling dirk, coming off the bench, getting hurt and throwing turnovers
Omfg :wow

[/thread]

[Mikeanaro]

:lol You didn't say that. This is what you said "Biggest knock on the Spurs too, tbh... without Manu they could not even win a series." You have poor reading comprehension skills but I'm not surprised.
You have no reading comprehension skills at all, TD is the greatest Spurs icon, and without Manu could not win a single series during the Big 3 era, Porker neither ... ergo biggest knock on the Spurs during the winning championships era so much TD TP talk but without the stellar sexy big nosed 6th man nothing happened, thats worst than your ¨fiberglass¨ theory.

[From Downtown]

Thread is ridiculous. Manu and his Fragile-self had a prime of one year. Then spent the rest of his career fouling dirk, coming off the bench, getting hurt and throwing turnovers
You forgot the 4 rings' part tbh

[daslicer]

You have no reading comprehension skills at all, TD is the greatest Spurs icon, and without Manu could not win a single series during the Big 3 era, Porker neither ... ergo biggest knock on the Spurs during the winning championships era so much TD TP talk but without the stellar sexy big nosed 6th man nothing happened, thats worst than your ¨fiberglass¨ theory.

Wow what a great revelation by a bandwagon fan. Too bad you ignore the fact when the Spurs lost to the Mavs in '09 without Manu that Duncan was already past his prime. It was that series where his decline began. I remember Duncan getting diagnosed with serious knee ailments during that series which limited his effectiveness. :lol Basically in your words a past his prime Duncan could not win a playoff series without Manu. You are insulting Duncan who is the GOAT spur of all time and top 5 player of all time by saying he couldn't win a playoff series in his prime without Manu.

[daslicer]

On a side note this thread was a troll job done by the OP to deliberately make this into an anti-Parker bashing thread. Both Parker and Manu were valuable to the Spurs during the 4 championships they took part in. Bottom line both of them were not not superstars. At their best they were all-star caliber players. Without Duncan both would not have had the type of careers they had. They were Duncan's supporting caste so debating which one was better is just stupid.

[J_Paco]

On a side note this thread was a troll job done by the OP to deliberately make this into an anti-Parker bashing thread. Both Parker and Manu were valuable to the Spurs during the 4 championships they took part in. Bottom line both of them were not not superstars. At their best they were all-star caliber players. Without Duncan both would not have had the type of careers they had. They were Duncan's supporting caste so debating which one was better is just stupid.

Exactly, man. Too many people want to argue the point to make "their guy" look better. It doesn't matter cause they are both high caliber NBA players (all-time), but would be a lot less successful without Timmy and coach Pop. Mostly Timmy, though.

[Mikeanaro]

Wow what a great revelation by a bandwagon fan. Too bad you ignore the fact when the Spurs lost to the Mavs in '09 without Manu that Duncan was already past his prime. It was that series where his decline began. I remember Duncan getting diagnosed with serious knee ailments during that series which limited his effectiveness. :lol Basically in your words a past his prime Duncan could not win a playoff series without Manu. You are insulting Duncan who is the GOAT spur of all time and top 5 player of all time by saying he couldn't win a playoff series in his prime without Manu.
Facts are facts so your past their prime shit is out of the equation, but lets add your past their primes shit... same could be said about TD and his ¨fiberglass knees¨, by saying stupid thing after stupid thing now you want to mix shit by bringing TD.
Injured or not he could not get it done without Manu, suck a fat one and accept it.

[daslicer]

Facts are facts so your past their prime shit is out of the equation, but lets add your past their primes shit... same could be said about TD and his ¨fiberglass knees¨, by saying stupid thing after stupid thing now you want to mix shit by bringing TD.
Injured or not he could not get it done without Manu, suck a fat one and accept it.

Proving your not a spurs fan but a Manu homer when you insult Duncan. Can't say Duncan was injury prone like Manu was considering he played close to 90 percent of his regular season games. Also saying Duncan couldn't win a playoff series without Manu is very laughable. You lose all credibility when you say that.

[Mikeanaro]

Proving your not a spurs fan but a Manu homer when you insult Duncan. Can't say Duncan was injury prone like Manu was considering he played close to 90 percent of his regular season games. Also saying Duncan couldn't win a playoff series without Manu is very laughable. You lose all credibility when you say that.
Lol because Duncan won the rings by himself and was 100% perfect, I dont care about your ¨fiberglass cred¨

[daslicer]

Lol because Duncan won the rings by himself and was 100% perfect, I dont care about your ¨fiberglass cred¨

:lol Yes and according to your logic Duncan in his prime could never win a series without Manu even though he had gotten out of the first round during the first 5 years of his career Pre-Manu. Please elaborate to me on how Duncan couldn't win a playoff series without Manu when he was able to win previously with guys like Elie,Jaren Jackson,Steve Smith, Derek Anderson,Del Negro. This is as stupid as using Michael Jordan's wizard years against him and screaming "He couldn't go to the playoffs without Scottie Pippen" when in reality we all knew Mike was over the hill.

[z0sa]

TD couldnt get it done without Manu :rollin

Man, i didnt even think about it til right now, but the next generation of NASF will be talking shit about Timmy. So sad.

At least he kicks ass in advanced stats. That should keep some of em from popping off at the mouth too much.

[Mikeanaro]

:lol Yes and according to your logic Duncan in his prime could never win a series without Manu even though he had gotten out of the first round during the first 5 years of his career Pre-Manu. Please elaborate to me on how Duncan couldn't win a playoff series without Manu when he was able to win previously with guys like Elie,Jaren Jackson,Steve Smith, Derek Anderson,Del Negro. This is as stupid as using Michael Jordan's wizard years against him and screaming "He couldn't go to the playoffs without Scottie Pippen" when in reality we all knew Mike was over the hill.
Because we are talking about the Big 3 era, and every time Manu was injured Spurs had a first round exit, facts are facts... sorry about that.

[daslicer]

Because we are talking about the Big 3 era, and every time Manu was injured Spurs had a first round exit, facts are facts... sorry about that.

:lmao Facts Facts Duncan was past his prime when those first round playoff exits happen. Hey by your logic Shaq could never get out of the first round without a healthy Wade during the "Miami Era". Debating with you is like debating with a special needs kid.

[TheGreatYacht]

TD couldnt get it done without Manu :rollin

Man, i didnt even think about it til right now, but the next generation of NASF will be talking shit about Timmy. So sad.

At least he kicks ass in advanced stats. That should keep some of em from popping off at the mouth too much.
Manure fans will shit on every Spurs legend before it's all said an done tbh. Imagine believing Manure is better than the Admiral :lol

[Mikeanaro]

:lmao Facts Facts Duncan was past his prime when those first round playoff exits happen. Hey by your logic Shaq could never get out of the first round without a healthy Wade during the "Miami Era". Debating with you is like debating with a special needs kid.
Past his prime??? he was 32 years old not 54. So he could play like a great during the 2013 and 2014 runs and at age 32 he was an old POS... get your facts straight.

[daslicer]

Past his prime??? he was 32 years old not 54. So he could play like a great during the 2013 and 2014 runs and at age 32 he was an old POS... get your facts straight.

:lmao Right because Duncan was still in his prime at age 32 back in '09 despite having only 1 good knee that worked. Having only 1 working knee means you are still in your prime. It took Tim a good 2 years after '09 to figure out how to play at a high level with 1 good knee. The clincher this year was the 1 good knee he had went out thus forcing him to retire.

[Mikeanaro]

:lmao Right because Duncan was still in his prime at age 32 back in '09 despite having only 1 good knee that worked. Having only 1 working knee means you are still in your prime. It took Tim a good 2 years after '09 to figure out how to play at a high level with 1 good knee. The clincher this year was the 1 good knee he had went out thus forcing him to retire.
According to your smart logic he was out of his prime in 2000 after the surgery...

[daslicer]

According to your smart logic he was out of his prime in 2000 after the surgery...

:lol Nice try really nice try considering after surgery Duncan didn't have any knee problems up until the spring of '09.

[Mikeanaro]

:lol Nice try really nice try considering after surgery Duncan didn't have any knee problems up until the spring of '09.
How do you know? Tim is that you????

[SASdynasty!]

You have no reading comprehension skills at all, TD is the greatest Spurs icon, and without Manu could not win a single series during the Big 3 era, Porker neither ... ergo biggest knock on the Spurs during the winning championships era so much TD TP talk but without the stellar sexy big nosed 6th man nothing happened, thats worst than your ¨fiberglass¨ theory.
In the last 5 years, the Spurs have won 4 different playoff series with Manu scoring less than 10 PPG, including the Portland series in 2014 where he went for an impactful 8.6/3.8 on 29% shooting. In the '03 title run, he only had one series where he scored 10 PPG. They've had plenty of series they've won without Manu doing much.

[Mikeanaro]

In the last 5 years, the Spurs have won 4 different playoff series with Manu scoring less than 10 PPG, including the Portland series in 2014 where he went for an impactful 8.6/3.8 on 29% shooting. In the '03 title run, he only had one series where he scored 10 PPG. They've had plenty of series they've won without Manu doing much.
Great, now Manu is all about scoring just like Porky dribble dribble shoot equals championship.
No Manu and they lose the series, thats a fact.

[gambit1990]

advanced stats for the playoffs:




PER
TS%
STL%
BLK%
TOV%
USG%
OWS
DWS
WS
WS/48
OBPM
DPM
BPM
VORP


manu
19.7
.580
2.5
0.8
15.6
24.5
11.9
8.2
20.1
.169
4.0
1.4
5.4
10.6


tony
16.8
.514
1.4
0.2
13.3
27.4
6.9
6.3
13.2
.084
0.8
-0.8
0.0
3.7



per 36 in the playoffs:
tony averages 18.7 on 16.2 shot attempts, manu averages 18.4 on 13.1 shot attempts
parker only averages .1 less turnover, manu averages about twice as many steals
parker only averages .5 more assist

[dabom]

:wow

[SASdynasty!]

Playoffs:

Boban: 25.4 PER
Manu: 19.7 PER

Boban: 0.752 TS%
Manu: 0.580 TS%

Boban: 4.9 OBPM
Manu: 4.0 OBPM

Boban: 0.336 WS/48
Manu: 0.169 WS/48

This is how Manu's advanced stats stack up against a fellow bench player. Way to leave out the advanced stats that weren't in Manu's favor by the way.

[gambit1990]

Playoffs:

Boban: 25.4 PER
Manu: 19.7 PER

Boban: 0.752 TS%
Manu: 0.580 TS%

Boban: 4.9 OBPM
Manu: 4.0 OBPM

Boban: 0.336 WS/48
Manu: 0.169 WS/48

This is how Manu's advanced stats stack up against a fellow bench player.
:lmao you're pathetic, boban has only played 42 minutes in the playoffs.


Way to leave out the advanced stats that weren't in Manu's favor by the way.
:lol the only advanced stat, for the playoffs, i left out that parker has on manu is AST%. you know what else i left out? manu also having a better FTr, ORB%, DRB%, TRB%.

[Spurtacular]

Spurs couldn't keep Boban b/c Tony wanted to keep his fat contract in tact.

[SASdynasty!]

:lmao you're pathetic, boban has only played 42 minutes in the playoffs.


:lol the only advanced stat, for the playoffs, i left out that parker has on manu is AST%. you know what else i left out? manu also having a better FTr, ORB%, DRB%, TRB%.
And you're pathetic for comparing advanced stats of a starter to a guy who played against backup squads most of his career.

[gambit1990]

And you're pathetic for comparing advanced stats of a starter to a guy who played against backup squads most of his career.

:lmao

with the game on the line... parker's ass was on the bench while manu was on the floor for:

-game 6 against the mavs in 2003

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4caOwS6jI

-game 6 against the nets in 2003

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeI1qzX9-zc

-game 5 against the grizzles in 2011 (regulation + overtime)

-game 6 against okc in 2014 (regulation + overtime)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNGkYsMYKhE

-game 3 against the grizzles in 2016

those are just some 4th quarters i can remember off the top of my head.

[SASdynasty!]

:lmao

with the game on the line... parker's ass was on the bench while manu was on the floor for:

-game 6 against the mavs in 2003

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO4caOwS6jI

-game 6 against the nets in 2003

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeI1qzX9-zc

-game 5 against the grizzles in 2011 (regulation + overtime)

-game 6 against okc in 2014 (regulation + overtime)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNGkYsMYKhE

-game 3 against the grizzles in 2016

those are just some 4th quarters i can remember off the top of my head.
Also Manu was on the floor of:

-Game 5 against LA in 2004

-Game 7 against Dallas in 2006

-Game 6 against Miami in 2013

[ElNono]

Also Manu was on the floor of:

-Game 5 against LA in 2004

-Game 7 against Dallas in 2006

-Game 6 against Miami in 2013

warrior, tbh...

[J_Paco]

This really is the most stupidest and pointless thread ever. Do y'all really think any other fanbase is so insecure that they argue which second/third guy was best (McHale/Parrish, Cousy/Havlicek, Thompson/Green or Irving/Love) on their championship teams?

It doesn't fucking matter. Neither one was good enough or great enough to sustainably carry a team throughout most of his career. Neither one was obstainsibly better than all of his teammates while making everyone better by his sheer presence alone. That was all Timothy Theodore Duncan......

Manu and Tony both beat the odds to become HOF players and the greatest backcourt duo in NBA histroy (IMO), but one of the greatest (top 3) big men ever made all the difference. They both had noticeable strengths and weaknesses, but thankfully most of the sore spots in their games didn't hurt the team (all the time). Any fan worth his salt appreciates what both of them helped the team to accomplish and everything else is silly semantics.

And not to start shit, but I find it ironic/hilarious that the haters constantly harp on Tony being benched at different moments of his career (not realizing this has happened to even Scottie Pipper and other great players) yet ignore the fact that Manu literally cost the team 2 or 3 championship opportunities.

[Diego20]

And you're pathetic for comparing advanced stats of a starter to a guy who played against backup squads most of his career.

When Manu was a starter and played enough minutes (30 minutes per game at least) in 2004-2005 & 2010-2011 , he played better than TP..


:lmao

[gambit1990]

:lmao

with the game on the line... parker's ass was on the bench while manu was on the floor for:

-game 6 against the mavs in 2003

-game 6 against the nets in 2003

-game 5 against the grizzles in 2011 (regulation + overtime)

-game 6 against okc in 2014 (regulation + overtime)

-game 3 against the grizzles in 2016

those are just some 4th quarters i can remember off the top of my head.

not playoffs... but another close game where parker was benched for the end of the 4th and overtime:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uoGnzDLDAU

[Kawhitstorm]

It doesn't fucking matter. Neither one was good enough or great enough to sustainably carry a team throughout most of his career. Neither one was obstainsibly better than all of his teammates while making everyone better by his sheer presence alone. That was all Timothy Theodore Duncan......
Manu led the ENTIRE league in offensive win-shares during the 2005 postseason aka he was the best playmaker.:wakeup

Porky had a pathetic 0.1 WS/48 rating for the 2007 postseason b/c he wasn't setting the world on fire against Deron Williams/Nash before he faced the Leastern Conference champs in the Finals led by the great Eric Snow.:lol

[SASdynasty!]

Parker 2007 NBA Playoffs:

vs Denver: 18.2/6.8 on 44%
vs Phoenix: 20.8/5.7 on 45%
vs Utah: 20.2/6.8 on 48%
vs Cleveland: 24.5/5.0 on 57%

For reference, Manu averaged 18.7/5.9 on 49% in the 2005 Finals.

Oh, and Eric Snow played 10 minutes per game that series. He was the equivalent of 2003 Speedy Claxton.

[gambit1990]

Parker 2007 NBA Playoffs:

vs Denver: 18.2/6.8 on 44%
vs Phoenix: 20.8/5.7 on 45%
vs Utah: 20.2/6.8 on 48%
vs Cleveland: 24.5/5.0 on 57%
:lol


For reference, Manu averaged 18.7/5.9 on 49% in the 2005 Finals.
:lmao manu averaged more points on better shooting AND averaged more assists then parker in the 2005 finals.

[gambit1990]

SASdynasty! making a fool of himself, nothing new though.

[Diego20]

Parker 2007 NBA Playoffs:

vs Denver: 18.2/6.8 on 44%
vs Phoenix: 20.8/5.7 on 45%
vs Utah: 20.2/6.8 on 48%
vs Cleveland: 24.5/5.0 on 57%

For reference, Manu averaged 18.7/5.9 on 49% in the 2005 Finals.

Oh, and Eric Snow played 10 minutes per game that series. He was the equivalent of 2003 Speedy Claxton.

Against a very good Pistons and champs of 2004.

:lmao

[SASdynasty!]

:lol


:lmao manu averaged more points on better shooting AND averaged more assists then parker in the 2005 finals.

No one ever argued Parker had a better Finals in 2005. Only the other 5 Finals.

[SASdynasty!]

Against a very good Pistons and champs of 2004.

:lmao
And the 2007 Cavs beat the Billups/Hamilton/Wallace/Prince/Webber/McDyess Pistons.

[gambit1990]

No one ever argued Parker had a better Finals in 2005. Only the other 5 Finals.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeI1qzX9-zc
where is tony and where is manu?

[gambit1990]

parker was benched the last couple minutes of double OT here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMW5_1dEIc

[Diego20]

And the 2007 Cavs beat the Billups/Hamilton/Wallace/Prince/Webber/McDyess Pistons.

Which proves 2005 pistons were better than 2007 pistons?

:lmao

[ElNono]

parker was benched the last couple minutes of double OT here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMW5_1dEIc

:worthy: SuperManu, tbh

[GSH]

This is not a who is a better player thread.


Why not? Every other fucking thread on ST devolves into that. Mostly because of you and your alts.

[dabom]

Why not? Every other fucking thread on ST devolves into that. Mostly because of you and your alts.

Shut up u lil bitch. :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Parker 2007 NBA Playoffs:
vs Phoenix: 20.8/5.7 on 45%
vs Utah: 20.2/6.8 on 48%

Nash: 21/13 (TS: 60%)
D-Will: 26/8 (TS: 61%)
...aka the Spurs won despite Porker being outplayed by his counterparts.:wakeup


Oh, and Eric Snow played 10 minutes per game that series.

My bad, how could have I left out the great Boobie Gibson.:bang


He was the equivalent of 2003 Speedy Claxton.

The same Speedy Claxton that was closing out games over Porker.:toast

[Phenomanul]

:worthy: SuperManu, tbh

No one brings up that 2007-2008 season... but Manu Ginóbili was a legit MVP candidate despite not being a starter at all, one of only a couple of players all-time to lead their teams in scoring from the bench... (#7 in PER at his career best 24.3 / #4 in VORP at his career best 5.9 behind LeBron, CP3, and Kobe / #3 in plus-minus at 8.1 behind LeBron and CP3). The 46 points he dropped on Lebron at Cleveland that season (on 15/20 shots) is still one of the most efficient games ever by anyone. Freaking Stern and his cronies fixing that season via a Joey Crawford no-call... the league so desparately wanted a Lakers/Celtics finals that year and got their wish... The whole plane on the tarmac debacle prior to Game 1 vs. L.A. and the Game 5 officiating were vomit-inducing... but yeah that game epitomized Ginobili's abilty to take over games.

[SAGirl]

http://usatthebiglead.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/manu-spider.gif?w=1000

[ElNono]

No one brings up that 2007-2008 season... but Manu Ginóbili was a legit MVP candidate despite not being a starter at all, one of only a couple of players all-time to lead their teams in scoring from the bench... (#7 in PER at his career best 24.3 / #4 in VORP at his career best 5.9 behind LeBron, CP3, and Kobe / #3 in plus-minus at 8.1 behind LeBron and CP3). The 46 points he dropped on Lebron at Cleveland that season (on 15/20 shots) is still one of the most efficient games ever by anyone. Freaking Stern and his cronies fixing that season via a Joey Crawford no-call... the league so desparately wanted a Lakers/Celtics finals that year and got their wish... The whole plane on the tarmac debacle prior to Game 1 vs. L.A. and the Game 5 officiating were vomit-inducing... but yeah that game epitomized Ginobili's abilty to take over games.

It's no surprise he hurt his ankle bailing us out on game #7 on the road against CP3/Chandler/DWest, and our season was done (despite Pop's mental fart with resting Bowen in the 1st game vs LA)...

[SASdynasty!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeI1qzX9-zc
where is tony and where is manu?
2003 NBA Finals:

Tony Parker: 14.0/4.2 on 39%
Manu Ginobili: 8.7/2.0 on 35%

And Parker was 20 years old.

[SASdynasty!]

No one brings up that 2007-2008 season... but Manu Ginóbili was a legit MVP candidate despite not being a starter at all, one of only a couple of players all-time to lead their teams in scoring from the bench... (#7 in PER at his career best 24.3 / #4 in VORP at his career best 5.9 behind LeBron, CP3, and Kobe / #3 in plus-minus at 8.1 behind LeBron and CP3). The 46 points he dropped on Lebron at Cleveland that season (on 15/20 shots) is still one of the most efficient games ever by anyone. Freaking Stern and his cronies fixing that season via a Joey Crawford no-call... the league so desparately wanted a Lakers/Celtics finals that year and got their wish... The whole plane on the tarmac debacle prior to Game 1 vs. L.A. and the Game 5 officiating were vomit-inducing... but yeah that game epitomized Ginobili's abilty to take over games.
I'll bring up the 2007-08 season:

R1 vs Phoenix:

Tony Parker: 30/7 on 52%
Manu Ginobili: 18/4 on 45%

R2 vs New Orleans:

Tony Parker: 19.4/5.7 on 49%
Manu Ginobili: 21.3/6.0 on 44%

R3 vs Los Angeles:

Tony Parker: 19.4/5.6 on 48%
Manu Ginobili: 12.6/3.0 on 36%

[Phenomanul]

I'll bring up the 2007-08 season:

R1 vs Phoenix:

Tony Parker: 30/7 on 52%
Manu Ginobili: 18/4 on 45%

R2 vs New Orleans:

Tony Parker: 19.4/5.7 on 49%
Manu Ginobili: 21.3/6.0 on 44%

R3 vs Los Angeles:

Tony Parker: 19.4/5.6 on 48%
Manu Ginobili: 12.6/3.0 on 36%

Enough with your shtick already... If anything it shows that Ginobili pushing himself to oust the Hornets, causing that ankle injury that he later aggravated (and broke) during the Beijing Olympics that summer, meant that the Spurs became more reliant on Parker and Duncan... a healthy Ginobili and we get past the Lakers that year to face the Celtics.

I really don't understand player fans... why must you knock down one player to propel 'your' player...? geesh... so childish.

[gambit1990]

anyone ever thinking parker > ginobili :lmao

[Solid D]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/spurs/ginobili_jersey.jpg

[gambit1990]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/spurs/ginobili_jersey.jpg
forgot about that :lol

[Phenomanul]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/teamsites/images/legacy/spurs/ginobili_jersey.jpg

Tbh he should've been brought over in 2000 or 2001... Spurs waited too long...

[Solid D]

Tbh he should've been brought over in 2000 or 2001... Spurs waited too long...

Maybe so. He might have performed better all-around than did Jaren Jackson in 2000-01 and Charles Spider Smith in 2001-02.

[From Downtown]

Tbh he should've been brought over in 2000 or 2001... Spurs waited too long...
Nah, Spurs did the right thing, he really developed in a complete player in those two year in Bologna, and learned how to win and how to deal with the pressure of playing for a competitive team
Had he come over in 2000 he probably wouldn't have been ready to perform right away like he did in 02

[SAGirl]

773946629590163457

[dabom]

The biggest Manu/Tony/Pop/Duncan hater in here. :lol

[Phenomanul]

Nah, Spurs did the right thing, he really developed in a complete player in those two year in Bologna, and learned how to win and how to deal with the pressure of playing for a competitive team
Had he come over in 2000 he probably wouldn't have been ready to perform right away like he did in 02

He gained that experience after the 2001 Euroleague season... At the very least Spurs waited 1 year too many.

[gambit1990]

2016 nba playoffs
PER
TS%
TOV%
WS/48
OBPM
DBPM
BPM
VORP


manu
16.0
.586
10.9
.191
4.2
1.2
5.4
0.4


tony
14.3
.499
14.7
.079
0.7
-1.5 :lol
-0.9 :lol
0.1



not surprised.

[gambit1990]

career WS/48 for the playoffs


duncan
.194


kawhi
.191


ginobili
.169


mills
.152 (.159 when playing for the spurs)


parker
.084



you know how timmy didn't look like timmy in the 2016 postseason? even he had a better WS/48 than parker. he was 40.

manu's was twice as high as parker's these last playoffs. literally, per usual as shown in the table provided.

[dabom]

career WS/48 for the playoffs


duncan
.194


kawhi
.191


ginobili
.169


mills
.152 (.159 when playing for the spurs)


parker
.084



you know how timmy didn't look like timmy in the 2016 postseason? even he had a better WS/48 than parker. he was 40.

manu's was twice as high as parker's these last playoffs. literally, per usual as shown in the table provided.

I mean Mills is a playoff beast. And yet we have these fucking cunts thinking he should shoot less. :lmao

They rather fathead or dworst or fatdiaw take the shot. :lmao

[SASdynasty!]

career WS/48 for the playoffs


duncan
.194


kawhi
.191


ginobili
.169


mills
.152 (.159 when playing for the spurs)


parker
.084



you know how timmy didn't look like timmy in the 2016 postseason? even he had a better WS/48 than parker. he was 40.

manu's was twice as high as parker's these last playoffs. literally, per usual as shown in the table provided.
You guys forgot someone that makes all these guys look like scrubs:

Boban: .336

Advanced stats, lol.

[Clipper Nation]

Boban >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LVPorker

[Snaq O'Meal]

You guys forgot someone that makes all these guys look like scrubs:

Boban: .336

Advanced stats, lol.

Advanced stats are really meant for those with advanced understanding of basketball and statistics. :)

[SASdynasty!]

Advanced stats are really meant for those with advanced understanding of basketball and statistics. :)
Exactly. Not for people who try to compare bench players going against second units like Ginobili to starters. Or even worse, bench role players like Mills who play restricted minutes.

[SASdynasty!]

Boban >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LVPorker
This particular advanced stat gem proves that Boban is exactly 4 times as valuable as Parker in the playoffs. Seems legit.

[Clipper Nation]

This particular advanced stat gem proves that Boban is exactly 4 times as valuable as Parker in the playoffs. Seems legit.

Actually, you're right. That stat is bullshit.

Boban is at least 10 times as valuable as Porker.

[Diego20]

Exactly. Not for people who try to compare bench players going against second units like Ginobili to starters. Or even worse, bench role players like Mills who play restricted minutes.

Ok so, Lebron James should play in the second unit for the CAVS, he would probably average 50 points per game, good idea. Kawhi should play in the secound unit too, he would average 50 points per game.

[Snaq O'Meal]

Exactly. Not for people who try to compare bench players going against second units like Ginobili to starters. Or even worse, bench role players like Mills who play restricted minutes.

How do you explain those negative DBPM and BPM numbers?



2016 nba playoffs
PER
TS%
TOV%
WS/48
OBPM
DBPM
BPM
VORP


manu
16.0
.586
10.9
.191
4.2
1.2
5.4
0.4


tony
14.3
.499
14.7
.079
0.7
-1.5
-0.9
0.1



Also, while you keep belittling our bench players despite their effectiveness in closing out playoff games against starters, ever thought of reading up on statistics and the significance of sample sizes before you involve Boban again in these discussions? You are in danger of looking as stupid as one of those three homosexual Laker fans who infest another subforum downstairs.

[SASdynasty!]

How do you explain those negative DBPM and BPM numbers?



2016 nba playoffs
PER
TS%
TOV%
WS/48
OBPM
DBPM
BPM
VORP


manu
16.0
.586
10.9
.191
4.2
1.2
5.4
0.4


tony
14.3
.499
14.7
.079
0.7
-1.5
-0.9
0.1



Also, while you keep belittling our bench players despite their effectiveness in closing out playoff games against starters, ever thought of reading up on statistics and the significance of sample sizes before you involve Boban again in these discussions? You are in danger of looking as stupid as one of those three homosexual Laker fans who infest another subforum downstairs.
You've identified the problem and yet still try to argue it. The reason I don't compare advanced stats between starters and bench players or role players is that it doesn't translate. I keep bringing up Boban to prove that point. Guess what? Boban had a higher BPM in the playoffs than Manu. I'm not the one trying to make sense of it because it's not comparable. Obviously Manu was better but since they play on different units with different minutes, it isn't comparable. There will always be a place for raw production because points are what win games. If you want to pull a few of the dozens of potential advanced stats to prove your point, be my guest. But the fact is, I could pull a few others and prove mine.

I'm not sure how to make this any clearer so I'll try one more time:

I don't compare Parker & Manu's advanced stats for the same reason I don't compare Manu and Boban's. If you can't understand the analogy, I'm not sure I can help you.

[gambit1990]

I don't compare Parker & Manu's advanced stats for the same reason I don't compare Manu and Boban's. If you can't understand the analogy, I'm not sure I can help you.

You guys forgot someone that makes all these guys look like scrubs:

Boban: .336

Advanced stats, lol.

you just compared them dumbass.

[ElNono]

you just compared them dumbass.

Yeah, not to mention that Boban is a huge outlier due to sample size, whereas that's nowhere near the case for TP and Manu...

Then again, that should be pretty obvious for anybody that knows the bare minimum about statistics.

[diego]

manu as a starter:

16.5pts 4.2 reb 4.3 ast 2.2 TO 1.6 stl .59TS 115 Ortg

manu as a sub:

12.5pts, 3.4 reb, 3.8 ast 2.0 TO 1.25 stl .58TS 110 Ortg


tony as a starter:

16.6pts 2.9 reb 5.9 ast 2.4 TO .9 stl .55TS 109 Ortg

tony as a sub:

11pts 2.2 reb 4.2 ast 1.9 TO .5 stl .52TS 105 Ortg

please explain to me why despite the clear advantage of going against reserves both tony and manu play worse as subs?

bonus:
tony as a sub in the playoffs age 27 (2010):

17.6 pts, 3.4reb, 5.5 ast, 2 TO, .75stl, .49FG

manu as a starter in the playoffs age 27 (2005):

21.1 pts, 5.7reb, 4.7 ast, 2.9 TO, 1.6 stl, .51FG

[SASdynasty!]

you just compared them dumbass.
I was being sarcastic to show that comparing players in different roles is dumb. How many times am I going to have to explain this?

[gambit1990]

I was being sarcastic to show that comparing players in different roles is dumb. How many times am I going to have to explain this?
whenever someone shows you parker's advanced stats in the playoffs... your only defense has been "boban". and now you're saying that you were being sarcastic :lol

you're always saying parker is better than manu... and then when i show you manu's advanced stats in the playoffs you say, "comparing players in different roles is dumb" :lmao:lmao:lmao

[SASdynasty!]

whenever someone shows you parker's advanced stats in the playoffs... your only defense has been "boban". and now you're saying that you were being sarcastic :lol

you're always saying parker is better than manu... and then when i show you manu's advanced stats in the playoffs you say, "comparing players in different roles is dumb" :lmao:lmao:lmao
Brother, you honestly can't be serious. There's no way you still can't understand the rhetoric.

1. Premise: Comparing advanced stats of players with different roles & minutes is not good because the results are sporadic.
2. Actuality: You and others constantly post advanced stats of Manu and Parker (different minutes, starter vs bench)
3. Therefore: I reject the comparison on the basis that premise (1) is met under the proposed condition (2).
4. Response: So, to prove that comparing advanced stats of different role players is dumb, I use Boban as an example because his advanced stats are better than anyone on the team while being one of the worst players.

[gambit1990]

Comparing advanced stats of players with different roles & minutes is not good because the results are sporadic.
:lmao

"because the results are sporadic" :lol spoken like a true kobe fan tbh.

and if it's "not good" to compare "players with different roles & minutes"... then why are you always comparing tony and manu?

[SASdynasty!]

:lmao

"because the results are sporadic" :lol spoken like a true kobe fan tbh.

and if it's "not good" to compare "players with different roles & minutes"... then why are you always comparing tony and manu?
I compare their production when threads like this are made to show the exact points I'm making here. There are very few if any cases in NBA history where a FMVP who has had much more production than a bench player on his team is said to be worse, even though he scores more, assists more, and shoots better from the field. That starter has also been an All-Star 3 times as much as the bench player and has led the team in scoring and assists for multiple championships and multiple playoff runs to the Finals, where the bench player has never done either even once.

So when the only argument is a random conglomeration of advanced stats for your position, you have to ask yourself, "Is this player really better?" ...especially considering I can take players who sit on the end of the bench and use the SAME EXACT "advanced" stats to "prove" that he's better than anyone on the team apparently (that being Boban).

[diego]

I compare their production when threads like this are made to show the exact points I'm making here. There are very few if any cases in NBA history where a FMVP who has had much more production than a bench player on his team is said to be worse, even though he scores more, assists more, and shoots better from the field. That starter has also been an All-Star 3 times as much as the bench player and has led the team in scoring and assists for multiple championships and multiple playoff runs to the Finals, where the bench player has never done either even once.

So when the only argument is a random conglomeration of advanced stats for your position, you have to ask yourself, "Is this player really better?" ...especially considering I can take players who sit on the end of the bench and use the SAME EXACT "advanced" stats to "prove" that he's better than anyone on the team apparently (that being Boban).

Of course he scores and assists more, he shoots more and plays more minutes. He does not shoot better, and FYI, basketball is more than just offense points and assists.

Comparing with boban who has played all of one playoffs as a 12th man to a hof player who has played more playoff minutes than all but 30 players in history shows how salty you are

And you still haven't explained, if bench players are so bad, why are tonys reserve stats substantially worse than his starter stats? Shouldn't his starter quality be outshining all the scrubs and his stats much better?

[diego]

Also, as far as leading scoring and assists for playoff finals runs / championships, Manu in 05 came 2nd to Duncan and Parker in points and assists, but let it be said, he scored 47 more points in that run than Parkers career highest playoff run, despite taking less shots per 36 than Parker in ANY of his playoff runs including last year, and he had a whopping 3 assists less than Parker with a better ast /to ratio (2013 was the only finals run season Parker had a better ast/to ratio). 05 manu trumps any Parker playoff run by a long, long shot.

[SASdynasty!]

Also, as far as leading scoring and assists for playoff finals runs / championships, Manu in 05 came 2nd to Duncan and Parker in points and assists, but let it be said, he scored 47 more points in that run than Parkers career highest playoff run, despite taking less shots per 36 than Parker in ANY of his playoff runs including last year, and he had a whopping 3 assists less than Parker with a better ast /to ratio (2013 was the only finals run season Parker had a better ast/to ratio). 05 manu trumps any Parker playoff run by a long, long shot.
Parker's '07 run was better than Manu's in '05. The only reason Manu had a few more total points was because Tony took care of the Cavs in 4 (a Cavs team that beat the Billups/Rip/Wallace/Prince/Webber Pistons). You shouldn't get extra credit for losing more Finals games. Parker's Finals were much better than Manu's, and Parker was actually the best player in the series. Manu wasn't even the best player on the team in those Finals.

[dabom]

Dat Boobie...

[diego]

Parker's '07 run was better than Manu's in '05. The only reason Manu had a few more total points was because Tony took care of the Cavs in 4 (a Cavs team that beat the Billups/Rip/Wallace/Prince/Webber Pistons). You shouldn't get extra credit for losing more Finals games. Parker's Finals were much better than Manu's, and Parker was actually the best player in the series. Manu wasn't even the best player on the team in those Finals.

:lol
which is it, finals series or playoff run? tim duncan was the best player of the 07 team (lead in points and rebounds, despite parker leading in attempts as usual), manu just got closer in 05 than tony in 07, and he did it for more than 1 series
the 05 spurs played 3 more games than in 07, yet manu scored 64 more points on 64 less attempts than tony in 07. But if there were 3 more games, tony could have put up another 80 shots to tie it up!
and even though 04 pistons>05 pistons>>>>>>>07 pistons (name dropping broken webber as if he was an upgrade over ben wallace, :lol), lets assume they are the same team the cavs beat. The cavs team that beat the pistons, is not the cavs team the spurs faced. Hughes played 44 minutes in 2 games (he averaged 37 mpg in the RS, same in PO until the finals), bumping boobie (went from 16.4mpg in the first 3 rounds, to 34.8 in the finals), damon jones and the corpse of eric snow to play a lot more minutes than in the previous rounds, Z also played a lot less but i think that was more foul trouble than injury... the cavs scored 80 in the finals, a full 10ppg less than they did against the pistons, in fact the spurs and the pistons offense vs the cavs was practically the same (86.0ppg on 42% for detroit, 86.5ppg 44% for sa)... yet according to you the reason we won was because parker scored a lot vs a 20 year old rook starting for the very first time in the playoffs :lol best player in the series

[Diego20]

:lol
which is it, finals series or playoff run? tim duncan was the best player of the 07 team (lead in points and rebounds, despite parker leading in attempts as usual), manu just got closer in 05 than tony in 07, and he did it for more than 1 series
the 05 spurs played 3 more games than in 07, yet manu scored 64 more points on 64 less attempts than tony in 07. But if there were 3 more games, tony could have put up another 80 shots to tie it up!
and even though 04 pistons>05 pistons>>>>>>>07 pistons (name dropping broken webber as if he was an upgrade over ben wallace, :lol), lets assume they are the same team the cavs beat. The cavs team that beat the pistons, is not the cavs team the spurs faced. Hughes played 44 minutes in 2 games (he averaged 37 mpg in the RS, same in PO until the finals), bumping boobie (went from 16.4mpg in the first 3 rounds, to 34.8 in the finals), damon jones and the corpse of eric snow to play a lot more minutes than in the previous rounds, Z also played a lot less but i think that was more foul trouble than injury... the cavs scored 80 in the finals, a full 10ppg less than they did against the pistons, in fact the spurs and the pistons offense vs the cavs was practically the same (86.0ppg on 42% for detroit, 86.5ppg 44% for sa)... yet according to you the reason we won was because parker scored a lot vs a 20 year old rook starting for the very first time in the playoffs :lol best player in the series


BOOOOOOOM

[SASdynasty!]

:lol
which is it, finals series or playoff run? tim duncan was the best player of the 07 team (lead in points and rebounds, despite parker leading in attempts as usual), manu just got closer in 05 than tony in 07, and he did it for more than 1 series
the 05 spurs played 3 more games than in 07, yet manu scored 64 more points on 64 less attempts than tony in 07. But if there were 3 more games, tony could have put up another 80 shots to tie it up!
and even though 04 pistons>05 pistons>>>>>>>07 pistons (name dropping broken webber as if he was an upgrade over ben wallace, :lol), lets assume they are the same team the cavs beat. The cavs team that beat the pistons, is not the cavs team the spurs faced. Hughes played 44 minutes in 2 games (he averaged 37 mpg in the RS, same in PO until the finals), bumping boobie (went from 16.4mpg in the first 3 rounds, to 34.8 in the finals), damon jones and the corpse of eric snow to play a lot more minutes than in the previous rounds, Z also played a lot less but i think that was more foul trouble than injury... the cavs scored 80 in the finals, a full 10ppg less than they did against the pistons, in fact the spurs and the pistons offense vs the cavs was practically the same (86.0ppg on 42% for detroit, 86.5ppg 44% for sa)... yet according to you the reason we won was because parker scored a lot vs a 20 year old rook starting for the very first time in the playoffs :lol best player in the series
Parker was guarded by Hughes, Gibson, & James. They eventually pulled James off because he didn't have the speed to keep up with Parker. And yes Parker was definitely the best player in the series. He was also the best player in the entire 2014 run. Manu was never even the best player on his team for an individual Finals or an entire championship run. Sorry you have to make excuses for why Parker was one of only 2 opponents to ever outplay Lebron in a playoff series, kinda sad really, but at least the excuses prove an admission.

[gambit1990]

manu could play one more year. tony? not so much.

[Play Boban]

manu could play one more year. tony? not so much.
And Manu is five years younger. :lol

[gambit1990]

the 05 spurs played 3 more games than in 07, yet manu scored 64 more points on 64 less attempts than tony in 07.
:wow

and against the pistons no less... the reigning champs and a defensive juggernaut.

[SpurPadre]

:wow

and against the pistons no less... the reigning champs and a defensive juggernaut.

Manu was THE REAL FINALS MVP in '05 and I'll always believe that tbh.

[diego]

Parker was guarded by Hughes, Gibson, & James. They eventually pulled James off because he didn't have the speed to keep up with Parker. And yes Parker was definitely the best player in the series. He was also the best player in the entire 2014 run. Manu was never even the best player on his team for an individual Finals or an entire championship run. Sorry you have to make excuses for why Parker was one of only 2 opponents to ever outplay Lebron in a playoff series, kinda sad really, but at least the excuses prove an admission.

boobie played more than double his minutes because of hughes' injury. lebrons statline and circumstances are easily more impressive than parkers. not even close to being the best in the series. parkers best playoffs came in 2012-14. in 2007 he got matched up with a rookie and abused him.

[Play Boban]

Manu was THE REAL FINALS MVP in '05 and I'll always believe that tbh.
Truth bomb. Timmy just got it because of reputation. He was 10/27 on field goals in game 7 ffs...

[diego]

boobie played more than double his minutes because of hughes' injury. lebrons statline and circumstances are easily more impressive than parkers. not even close to being the best in the series. parkers best playoffs came in 2012-14. in 2007 he got matched up with a rookie and abused him.

had a bit of spare time so I decided to look at boobie's playoff career a bit...

2007, rookie year:
16.5 regular season mpg
11.8 first round
11.1 second round
24.9 conference finals (hughes injured game 3; game 1 minutes larry hughes 44:38, gibson 5:13; game 6 larry hughes 28:29, boobie 29:02)
34.8 finals (larry hughes played 21.9 mpg in games 1 and 2)

2008:
30.4 rs
29.6 first round
21.4 second round

2009:
23.9 rs
5.1 first round
10.4 second round
11.7 conference finals

2010
19.1 rs
2.1 first round
6.2 first round

that finals was the only time he started and played big minutes in his entire career

that finals timmy had 18.3, 11.5, 3.8, 1.3stl 2.3blk
tony had 24.5, 5, 3.3 .8stl 3 t/o per game on boobie and injured hughes
manu 17.8, 5.8, 2.5, 1.3 stl 2.25 t/o per game

and lebron had 22, 7, 6.8 ast, 1stl, .5blk, 5.75 t/o per game on bowen and duncan

best player in the series :lol