Home ownership is at 5 year low

[InRareForm]

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2016/07/28/u-s-homeownership-rate-falls-to-five-decade-low

[boutons_deux]

Housing Prices Recover to 2005 Bubble Level

Housing prices have recovered all the way to 2005 bubble levels. But is the new level a bubble as it has been in the past?

RealtyTrac, now known as ATTOM Data Solutions, reported in the month of June housing (http://www.realtytrac.com/news/home-prices-and-sales/june-and-q2-2016-home-sales-report/)was:

1 Percent Above Previous Peak in July 2005 Following 52 Consecutive Months of Increases; But Pace of Price Appreciation Slowing in 54 Percent of 349 Counties


Its experts added:

Out of 130 metropolitan statistical areas analyzed for the report, 39 (30 percent) reached new all-time home price peaks in June, including Dallas ($240,156), Atlanta ($192,000), Seattle ($385,000), Minneapolis ($235,950), and St. Louis ($190,209).


Financing costs are among the most important reasons housing has recovered. Since current interest rates are well below bubble levels, it is encouraging that consumers can carry higher home prices for less money.

Daren Blomquist, senior vice president at ATTOM Data Solutions, wrote:

The all-time home price highs nationwide an in many local markets are being enabled by historically low mortgage rates — which are falling once again this year. It is likely that some of the most interest rate sensitive local markets will see home price appreciation knocked down when the low rate rug is finally pulled out from under the housing recovery. We are seeing signs of weakening appreciation in many bellwether markets already in spite of the rock-bottom rates.


The housing crash was uneven across both states and cities. The same holds true for the recovery:

Metro areas with the biggest year-over-year increase in median home price in June were Salisbury, Maryland (up 22 percent), Pensacola, Florida (up 21 percent), Tampa, Florida (up 20 percent), St. Louis (up 19 percent), Boulder, Colorado (up 19 percent), and Flint, Michigan (up 18 percent).

Along with Tampa and St. Louis, major metro areas with a population of at least 1 million where median home sales prices increased at least 10 percent from a year ago in June 2016 included Orlando (up 13 percent), Phoenix (up 12 percent), Austin, Texas (up 12 percent), Portland, Oregon (up 12 percent), Denver (up 11 percent), and Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, Virginia (up 10 percent).

There were 16 metro areas among the 130 analyzed (12 percent) where median home prices declined from a year ago in June, including Bridgeport, Connecticut (down 6 percent), Allentown, Pennsylvania (down 4 percent), Columbus, Ohio (down 3 percent), Houston (down 2 percent), and Milwaukee (down 1 percent).


Hopefully low interest rates will continue. Otherwise, price increases at these rates will cause huge housing market risks.

http://247wallst.com/housing/2016/07/28/housing-prices-recover-to-2005-bubble-level/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+typepad%2FRyNm+%2824%2F7+Wall +St.%29

[Blake]

Home ownership isn't as great as public perception makes it out to be, imo fwiw

[tlongII]

Home ownership isn't as great as public perception makes it out to be, imo fwiw

It is if you get a good price.

[Blake]

It is if you get a good price.

Yeah, if.

And then if you plan on selling it soon for profit.

[tlongII]

Yeah, if.

And then if you plan on selling it soon for profit.

The fact that you write off interest and insurance while building equity at the same price as rent expense makes it a great deal.

[Blake]

The fact that you write off interest and insurance while building equity at the same price as rent expense makes it a great deal.

Minus the upkeep and it's not as great as all that. Do the math.

[rmt]

The fact that you write off interest and insurance while building equity at the same price as rent expense makes it a great deal.

You don't get to write off insurance on taxes for a primary residence - only a rental. Maybe you meant property taxes? Otherwise, I agree if you plan to stay put.

[DisAsTerBot]

sold my house in austin. made bank

[Blake]

http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/articles/2013/12/13/renting-vs-buying-a-home-which-is-smarter

It's not the slam dunk it used to be. It sure sucked having to fork out $1800 for the deductible on the hail damage on my roof

[tlongII]

You don't get to write off insurance on taxes for a primary residence - only a rental. Maybe you meant property taxes? Otherwise, I agree if you plan to stay put.

Property taxes.

[tlongII]

My last mortgage payment is due in October.

[CosmicCowboy]

Owning is definitely cheaper than renting over the long term.

[rmt]

My last mortgage payment is due in October.

Congratulations! I can't wait for mine to get paid off.

[InRareForm]

Yeah, if.

And then if you plan on selling it soon for profit.

Still need 2+ houses to make a decent profit and make it worthwhile.. If you sell you still gotta live somewhere else

[Blake]

Owning is definitely cheaper than renting over the long term.

Personal anecdotes are neat

[lebomb]

Ummmmm yeah!!!! Because you actually have to qualify to buy the mufawkuh now!! That is why the housing market crashed in 2007/08. A chinchilla could buy a damned house. Alot of homes were foreclosed because the system under Bush allowed unemployed, bankrupt and thieves to purchase homes. Its taken all this time to get things half way back to normal. So DUHHHHHHH, home ownership is at a 5yr low. Surprise. :rolleyes

[rmt]

Personal anecdotes are neat

I agree with CC. When you rent, you are paying the landlord's mortgage (if any), insurance, property taxes and (usually) profit. When you buy, you eventually (totally) own the house.

[Blake]

I agree with CC. When you rent, you are paying the landlord's mortgage (if any), insurance, property taxes and (usually) profit. When you buy, you eventually (totally) own the house.

More personal anecdote. Neater.

[rmt]

Ummmmm yeah!!!! Because you actually have to qualify to buy the mufawkuh now!! That is why the housing market crashed in 2007/08. A chinchilla could buy a damned house. Alot of homes were foreclosed because the system under Bush allowed unemployed, bankrupt and thieves to purchase homes. Its taken all this time to get things half way back to normal. So DUHHHHHHH, home ownership is at a 5yr low. Surprise. :rolleyes

Not only is it harder to qualify for a loan but the price of housing has gone up significantly.

[xXx]

I want to build in Boerne, but 335k...I gotta pay off my 20 year old school loan first...shiiiii

Not to mention the ex is sitting pretty in Alamo ranch in a quarter million....bitch....lol.

[CosmicCowboy]

More personal anecdote. Neater.

For you, maybe better to rent. if you can't afford $1800 to maintain your house you probably shouldn't have one.

[TeyshaBlue]

More personal anecdote. Neater.

Another. I own 5 houses. I rent 4 of them out. My renters make out like bandits. Outlay for any of the rentals far outstrip the outlay for my residence. Rent covers it..most months. But weather events have really been a beating this year.

[CosmicCowboy]

Making money on houses is all about location. Buy a shit house in a shit neighborhood and you might lose money. I know the house I bought for my daughter has gone up $30,000 since I bought it three years ago and would rent for $600 a month more than the note, taxes, and insurance.

[CosmicCowboy]

i'm thinking about stepping up on another residential investment and looking for a waterfront lot on Lake LBJ or Lake Marble Falls and building a kickass lake house.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Ownership is fine. It's mortgages that suck particularly the 30 year model.

[TeyshaBlue]

Ownership is fine. It's mortgages that suck particularly the 30 year model.

+10. I'm on 15 years on the rentals.. 30 on mine.:depressed

[Blake]

For you, maybe better to rent. if you can't afford $1800 to maintain your house you probably shouldn't have one.

Exactly. Nice of you to catch up.

[Blake]

Ownership is fine. It's mortgages that suck particularly the 30 year model.

That. Paying cash for a house would be awesome.

[CosmicCowboy]

With interest rates where they are mortgages are OK... Cash has a time value too.

[Blake]

With interest rates where they are mortgages are OK... Cash has a time value too.

Nope. Not at 30 year. Even 15 year is iffy if you have to work at upkeep.

I've been lucky that I've had a good hvac

[CosmicCowboy]

Nope. Not at 30 year. Even 15 year is iffy if you have to work at upkeep.

I've been lucky that I've had a good hvac

I disagree. At my tax rate the interest on my daughters house costs me less than 2%. I can make more than that on my cash while the house appreciates.

[SnakeBoy]

Nope. Not at 30 year. Even 15 year is iffy if you have to work at upkeep.

I've been lucky that I've had a good hvac

Sounds like you bought a house out of your price range.

[CosmicCowboy]

Anyone paying more than 4% on a mortgage right now is either dumb or has bad credit.

[CosmicCowboy]

Sounds like you bought a house out of your price range.

Yep...the conservative rule of thumb is to keep your mortgage payment no more than 28% of your income.

[Blake]

Sounds like you bought a house out of your price range.

The value went up faster than I anticipated, so the taxes went up.

I'm doing fine, still got bank. I'm just not as quick to go to Vegas or buy big things these days. It'll be a lot better when my kid gets out of private school too

[Blake]

Sounds like you bought a house out of your price range.

But that's not really the point tho. The point is the total cost of what you pay over 30 years vs the actual value. Do the math.

[CosmicCowboy]

But that's not really the point tho. The point is the total cost of what you pay over 30 years vs the actual value. Do the math.

It's called time value of money. The gross dollar amount look bad but that's because mentally you are assuming the dollar will be worth the same at the 30th year as it is today. It won't be even close. I'm not saying 15 year mortgages are bad, because they definitely come with a little lower fixed interest rate. But your "do the math" claim doesn't necessarily wash. Personally I can find investments that pay me more than 5% so paying less than 2% interest after tax on mortgage interest makes perfect sense mathematically.

[hater]

You own a piece of land in this godforsaken country is a special feeling niggas.

It's your own Alamo and you will go down with that mofo. I am at least.

[Blake]

It's called time value of money. The gross dollar amount look bad but that's because mentally you are assuming the dollar will be worth the same at the 30th year as it is today. It won't be even close. I'm not saying 15 year mortgages are bad, because they definitely come with a little lower fixed interest rate. But your "do the math" claim doesn't necessarily wash. Personally I can find investments that pay me more than 5% so paying less than 2% interest after tax on mortgage interest makes perfect sense mathematically.

You're assuming property values will go up or at least remain steady.

And what will you do after 30 years? You're still paying property taxes forever. Plus maintenance.

Or you sell what you have and rent out a room in an old folks home

[SnakeBoy]

You're assuming property values will go up or at least remain steady.

And what will you do after 30 years? You're still paying property taxes forever. Plus maintenance.

Or you sell what you have and rent out a room in an old folks home

You realize as a renter you would be paying all of those costs indirectly and after 30 years you would have nothing but another payment due.

[ElNono]

Looking into buying our first home in a few months... that's the plan anyways...

[CosmicCowboy]

Looking into buying our first home in a few months... that's the plan anyways...

Great time to do it. Interest rates are awesome.

[CosmicCowboy]

You're assuming property values will go up or at least remain steady.

And what will you do after 30 years? You're still paying property taxes forever. Plus maintenance.

Or you sell what you have and rent out a room in an old folks home

If property values don't go up after 30 years that will be the least of our problems. Nice crack about the old folks home though.

News flash. You are gonna get old and die too.

[ElNono]

Great time to do it. Interest rates are awesome.

Paying cash. It's complicated, let's leave it at that. :D

[vy65]

You realize as a renter you would be paying all of those costs indirectly and after 30 years you would have nothing but another payment due.

This. You're paying a premium + don't end up with an appreciating asset.

[CosmicCowboy]

Paying cash. It's complicated, let's leave it at that. :D

Damn. freaking undercover South American drug lord here...:lol

[vy65]

The value went up faster than I anticipated, so the taxes went up.

I'm doing fine, still got bank. I'm just not as quick to go to Vegas or buy big things these days. It'll be a lot better when my kid gets out of private school too

Did you not file a homestead exemption? You'd get the 10% cap so you're tax bill wouldn't be that much greater. Unless you saw a 100k jump or something crazy, in which case you shouldn't be worried about an 1800 deductible. Although if you're pissed about that you could hire a public adjustor to fuck with your insurance company.

[vy65]

Paying cash. It's complicated, let's leave it at that. :D

Seriously, can you get me a kilo at a discounted rate?

[ElNono]

Damn. freaking undercover South American drug lord here...:lol


Seriously, can you get me a kilo at a discounted rate?

:lol you gotta talk to hater, tbh... No hustle here

[ElNono]

Banks can be a bitch to get a mortgage when you're self-employed, tbh, unless you have very steady income... especially after the crash, they charge ridiculous rates for that kind of loans. They've just recently backed down a bit on the paper requirements (http://themortgagereports.com/18303/mortgage-self-employed-1099-business-get-approved), so I might look into it, but we've just been saving instead.

[spurraider21]

my gf's parents want to move back to sweden at some point in the near future, and they've basically told us their house is ours once we tie the knot (will likely happen soon after i'm done with the bar)

needs a shitload of work/renovation but its still a heck of a gift

[rmt]

i'm thinking about stepping up on another residential investment and looking for a waterfront lot on Lake LBJ or Lake Marble Falls and building a kickass lake house.

For rental, I wouldn't buy lakefront and build a nice house. For yourself, sure, splurge but hate to see a nice house get beaten up by renters. Besides, someone who can afford to rent a great house can afford to buy their own. I prefer a 3 bedroom in a decent neighborhood for a rental.

[vy65]

my gf's parents want to move back to sweden at some point in the near future, and they've basically told us their house is ours once we tie the knot (will likely happen soon after i'm done with the bar)

needs a shitload of work/renovation but its still a heck of a gift

Don't do it. And it's got nothing to do with the bloodline

[vy65]

Don't do it. And it's got nothing to do with the bloodline

The marriage part I mean. The home is fine.

[pgardn]

Looking into buying our first home in a few months... that's the plan anyways...

Everyone pays in cash for their first home.

...getting a Matt Bonner tiny house

[ElNono]

Everyone pays in cash for their first home.

...getting a Matt Bonner tiny house

For the kind of money I'm spending here I could buy a 3-4 bedroom in San Antonio (and I might sell and do that down the road).

At least you get some equity, tbh, instead of handing off money to somebody else every month.

[TDMVPDPOY]

You realize as a renter you would be paying all of those costs indirectly and after 30 years you would have nothing but another payment due.

this is the mentality of renters vs buyers...

i spent 32yrs renting in public housing, and was paying market rates....after all those years you have nothing to show for it...no assets or equity under ur name...

decided to buy 2 years ago, and never looked back

think about it, if ur paying market rates renting to some property investor to pay of his house in the long term, what is a extra few hundred to the mortgage to pay off the principal? you fear it will hurt ur standard of living? tell me what u going to do with the money u save? investing or blowing it on booze and shit?

the problem most ppl have at the start is do they have enough equity for a deposit? then long term stability like job and interest rates...at the end of the day you still need a roof over your head, if u can commit to paying of a large debt, dont think the debt as something short term when ppl should be looking at it long term commitment

it doesnt matter what time u get into the market, do you think a property you like will appear again on the market? how about interest rates now and future, then u have price now and into future...

[pgardn]

For the kind of money I'm spending here I could buy a 3-4 bedroom in San Antonio (and I might sell and do that down the road).

At least you get some equity, tbh, instead of handing off money to somebody else every month.

I love SA.

We do have projections of 1 million more people in 10 years though.
We don't have the roads for this, no way. The plans in place cannot absorb these numbers.

I will stay for the Mexican food.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

If property values don't go up after 30 years that will be the least of our problems. Nice crack about the old folks home though.

News flash. You are gonna get old and die too.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kjOHoEKbH7A/ULQgiAZ45RI/AAAAAAAABh4/8U-RJx1-pGg/s1600/Inflation-Adjusted+U.S.+Home+Prices+Since+1900.jpg

[rmt]

That graph doesn't seem right at all - in the midst of the housing crash, the index is so high?

[TDMVPDPOY]

your first house will never be ur last or ur best house, remember that

get into the market by getting ur first house, then if u plan to buy another down t he future, u can always sell ur current one given that it has raise in value, or use it as security to refinance get a bigger mortgage loan to purchase ur next one, use that first house and rent it out for extra income to pay down whatever loans...

yes rates and all this shit stacks up per house you own anyway, u cant get away from it

but remember not everyone especially those fkn property investors, they all dont own it till they pay it all off, they can gloat this and that how much wealth they got but its all on credit till the banks does a call-in then ur fcked :D

[CosmicCowboy]

Banks can be a bitch to get a mortgage when you're self-employed, tbh, unless you have very steady income... especially after the crash, they charge ridiculous rates for that kind of loans. They've just recently backed down a bit on the paper requirements (http://themortgagereports.com/18303/mortgage-self-employed-1099-business-get-approved), so I might look into it, but we've just been saving instead.

It's not too bad if you incorporate or LLC your business. Probably a good idea from a liability standpoint anyway.

[CosmicCowboy]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kjOHoEKbH7A/ULQgiAZ45RI/AAAAAAAABh4/8U-RJx1-pGg/s1600/Inflation-Adjusted+U.S.+Home+Prices+Since+1900.jpg

Thanks for the graph. Proves my point that home prices have beat inflation since WWII.

[CosmicCowboy]

For rental, I wouldn't buy lakefront and build a nice house. For yourself, sure, splurge but hate to see a nice house get beaten up by renters. Besides, someone who can afford to rent a great house can afford to buy their own. I prefer a 3 bedroom in a decent neighborhood for a rental.

Mine wouldn't be a full time rental. It would be more of a capital gains play with 10 or 15 years of fun thrown in or maybe sell my SA house and live there. With all the wealthy retirees moving to Texas there is a strong market for high end hill country recreational properties. Texas constant level waterfront isn't like Florida waterfront. There isn't much of it and it's expensive as hell. Most nice houses on the lake are 800,000 -5 million. One acre waterfront property by itself would be $300,000+. I would probably buy the lot, split it, build two houses and the dock/boat lift infrastructure and sell one to pay for most of the other. If I did rent my house out it out it would be short term vacation rental and not full time rental. Properties like I'm talking about can rent for 5K a week during the summer.

[ElNono]

It's not too bad if you incorporate or LLC your business. Probably a good idea from a liability standpoint anyway.

It is an LLC.

[pgardn]

That graph doesn't seem right at all - in the midst of the housing crash, the index is so high?

I am not an economist but I would think the spike indicates that prices on homes were high and inflation was low. Ex. They were building a lot of relatively high priced houses in Vegas in very new areas for people who could not afford them except...

Because it became so easy to get a loan (mortgage) for high priced homes there was demand and builders had not quite kept up yet. This was all apart of the big lie. People lying to themselves that they could own a home without a job AND mortgage companies aiding banks in just giving away absolutely horrible loans and hiding these very bad loans. The bad loans were packaged with decent ones (Rotten packages) and sold to investors who bought the crap because home buying had gone bonkers and the ratings of these horrible investments were horribly and knowingly wrong.

Yeah. I will go with that. A lot of people knowingly participated in a false American "Dream". The dreams were pipe dreams.

[CosmicCowboy]

It is an LLC.

hmmmm. With my C corp I can retain 75K of income every year with only a 15% tax rate. You can balance personal/business to try to minimize your rates. I will sometimes take profit out of the C to keep it from making too much money, pay the current personal tax, and then loan the remaining balance back to the company at 7%. The interest is deductible to the corporation and you are making 4-5% personally after tax on your money and if you later need cash for some personal expenses you can just write yourself a check and no personal tax is due. All perfectly legal.

[pgardn]

hmmmm. With my C corp I can retain 75K of income every year with only a 15% tax rate. You can balance personal/business to try to minimize your rates. I will sometimes take profit out of the C to keep it from making too much money, pay the current personal tax, and then loan the remaining balance back to the company at 7%. The interest is deductible to the corporation and you are making 4-5% personally after tax on your money and if you later need cash for some personal expenses you can just write yourself a check and no personal tax is due. All perfectly legal.

There is a balance here. The accountant. Get out and spend time on work that brings in $ in the first place. Some people don't have time, an accountant is cheaper and better for some.

[CosmicCowboy]

There is a balance here. The accountant. Get out and spend time on work that brings in $ in the first place. Some people don't have time, an accountant is cheaper and better for some.

Who do you think tells me how to balance the cash to minimize taxes? i spend plenty of time making money, thanks.

[Blake]

Another. I own 5 houses. I rent 4 of them out. My renters make out like bandits. Outlay for any of the rentals far outstrip the outlay for my residence. Rent covers it..most months. But weather events have really been a beating this year.

Difference is your anecdote isn't being touted as gospel.

I've heard similar stories tho

[Blake]

You realize as a renter you would be paying all of those costs indirectly and after 30 years you would have nothing but another payment due.

False assumption

[spurraider21]

Don't do it. And it's got nothing to do with the bloodline
:lol they're Armenian... But their fam was in Sweden for about 30 years

[vy65]

:lol they're Armenian... But their fam was in Sweden for about 30 years

Double whammy. May god have mercy on your soul.

[spurraider21]

Double whammy. May god have mercy on your soul.
:lol

[pgardn]

Who do you think tells me how to balance the cash to minimize taxes? i spend plenty of time making money, thanks.

Well you are most welcome.

I listen and forget why I'm doing what. But I don't have employees. But I juggle back and forth between being officially employed and a self employed consultant depending on the progress of different projects.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Thanks for the graph. Proves my point that home prices have beat inflation since WWII.

No it doesn't. It's the price adjusted for inflation using 1900 as the baseline. IOW if you bought a house in 1955 when it was worth ~117% of 1900s value and sold it in 2013 you would get back 117% of 1900s value. That also doesn't consider all of the maintenance and tax costs associated with a home.

The way to make money is to sell during a bubble but overall its just a volatile market. An investment that accumulates value relative to inflation will have a positive slope.

[ElNono]

hmmmm. With my C corp I can retain 75K of income every year with only a 15% tax rate. You can balance personal/business to try to minimize your rates. I will sometimes take profit out of the C to keep it from making too much money, pay the current personal tax, and then loan the remaining balance back to the company at 7%. The interest is deductible to the corporation and you are making 4-5% personally after tax on your money and if you later need cash for some personal expenses you can just write yourself a check and no personal tax is due. All perfectly legal.

We used to be a corp but moved to an LLC for liability/taxes. I own 30% so that's my share. The thing is, we used to have some years where we would make a lot of money, and some years pretty dry. That's fortunately changing now, but from the standpoint of the bank, they just didn't appreciate 2-3 years of tax returns and K-1s that were swinging so much, so it was difficult, tbh... plus up until recently that they changed the rules as I mentioned above, they wouldn't count my wife's income.

So we've been saving instead, and frankly, with cash in hand, you can also save some fees/commissions and might work better at the end of the day anyways.

[CosmicCowboy]

No it doesn't. It's the price adjusted for inflation using 1900 as the baseline. IOW if you bought a house in 1955 when it was worth ~117% of 1900s value and sold it in 2013 you would get back 117% of 1900s value. That also doesn't consider all of the maintenance and tax costs associated with a home.

The way to make money is to sell during a bubble but overall its just a volatile market. An investment that accumulates value relative to inflation will have a positive slope.

I'm not going to argue with stupid. Besides, your deal living with Mommy is definitely your cheapest option.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm not going to argue with stupid. Besides, your deal living with Mommy is definitely your cheapest option.

I own the house I live in but thanks for playing. Youre too stupid to make an argument. A percentage of the baseline is a percentage of a baseline. Fees and taxes are fees and taxes.

Go have a cheeseburger and stalk a playground, pedofattie.

[CosmicCowboy]

We used to be a corp but moved to an LLC for liability/taxes. I own 30% so that's my share. The thing is, we used to have some years where we would make a lot of money, and some years pretty dry. That's fortunately changing now, but from the standpoint of the bank, they just didn't appreciate 2-3 years of tax returns and K-1s that were swinging so much, so it was difficult, tbh... plus up until recently that they changed the rules as I mentioned above, they wouldn't count my wife's income.

So we've been saving instead, and frankly, with cash in hand, you can also save some fees/commissions and might work better at the end of the day anyways.

I wont argue that paying cash for your house gives you a huge security level if things turn south. Glad you guys are hitting more good years lately. Keep looking for a good regional bank or credit union that will treat you right. It makes life better. The National banks suck. They have their loan officer in straight jackets. Let them make some money on you with interest and once they know you are good for it it's pretty cool to have a biz opportunity come up and just call your guy and ask him to drop a couple hundred grand in your account and go by the next day to sign the paperwork.

[CosmicCowboy]

I own the house I live in but thanks for playing. Youre too stupid to make an argument. A percentage of the baseline is a percentage of a baseline. Fees and taxes are fees and taxes.

Go have a cheeseburger and stalk a playground, pedofattie.

Sure you do. :lmao

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Sure you do. :lmao

All that posturing and youre still wrong. It's hilarious that you cannot understand a simple chart, pedofattie.

[CosmicCowboy]

Your mom is calling you to clean your room loser. I can understand that based on the chart since WWII if you bought a house it beat inflation. My personal experience is it's beat the hell out of inflation. Hopefully your parents can still write your stupid ass off.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Your mom is calling you to clean your room loser. I can understand that based on the chart since WWII if you bought a house it beat inflation. My personal experience is it's beat the hell out of inflation. Hopefully your parents can still write your stupid ass off.

You said that the chart proved your point. It didn't, pedofattie.

Your personal anecdote is unverifiable and irrelevant. That you would use it as basis to recommend residential real estate as an investment just demonstrates your incompetence.

[SnakeBoy]

Fuzzy's chart proves that no one has ever made money buying/selling residential real estate. It's just not possible.

[CosmicCowboy]

Fuzzy's chart proves that no one has ever made money buying/selling residential real estate. It's just not possible.

:lmao

yeah fuzzy just being stupid again. He like to pretend he is grown up in here but his posts give him away.

[CosmicCowboy]

its losers like Fuzzy living with mommy that are keeping the home ownership numbers down.

Bet Mommy even makes his bed.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy's chart proves that no one has ever made money buying/selling residential real estate. It's just not possible.

I never said you couldn't but if you are looking into just buy a house in sit on it in the hopes that it will appreciate then your just as likely to lose as you are to win all things being equal. It's not like he was explaining how to find a niche in the market.

Either way that chart didn't support what he was saying.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

its losers like Fuzzy living with mommy that are keeping the home ownership numbers down.

Bet Mommy even makes his bed.

You've been reduced to mom jokes and won't even discuss the actual issue. Such bravery, pedofattie.

[SnakeBoy]

I never said you couldn't but if you are looking into just buy a house in sit on it in the hopes that it will appreciate then your just as likely to lose as you are to win all things being equal. It's not like he was explaining how to find a niche in the market.

Either way that chart didn't support what he was saying.

Yeah the chart, as you pointed out, shows that if you bought a house in 1955 and sat on it for 58 years and then sold it at the bottom of the largest housing crash in US history then you really didn't make any money. It's a great point!

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yeah the chart, as you pointed out, shows that if you bought a house in 1955 and sat on it for 58 years and then sold it at the bottom of the largest housing crash in US history then you really didn't make any money. It's a great point!

AGain if you sold in a bubble you could make money. There have been 3 bubbles in the past 100 years and the last one was driven by wholesale fraud. Quit being obtuse, yoni.

[CosmicCowboy]

AGain if you sold in a bubble you could make money. There have been 3 bubbles in the past 100 years and the last one was driven by wholesale fraud. Quit being obtuse, yoni.

yawn

scared little loser

your mom still wants you to clean your room.

[rmt]

I don't care whether it's anecdotal or not, but unless you are buying at the top of a real estate bubble or buying into an area that is extremely overpriced, imo, home ownership is superior to renting. You get a (interest) tax break, write off of property tax, appreciation and you gotta live somewhere anyways. You don't get any of the first 3 with renting - you're paying the landlord's expenses + profit. This is especially true now when interest rates are low.

[rmt]

I'll add that rental investment adds diversification to your mix of assets, makes use of leverage (only 20% downpayment, tenants pay expenses, after 30 years, full ownership of property) and is very stable income as people have to live somewhere.

[rmt]

Another thing - you get to claim depreciation for 27.5 years and if you pass the real estate on to your heirs, that depreciation "disappears" (they don't have to pay taxes on it).

[SnakeBoy]

AGain if you sold in a bubble you could make money. There have been 3 bubbles in the past 100 years and the last one was driven by wholesale fraud. Quit being obtuse, yoni.

Your the one being obtuse with your stupid national chart. When you buy a house you aren't buying the entire US housing market so it goes without saying that if you overpay for a home in a declining neighborhood and/or sell at the worst time in history you might lose money. Your the only one in this thread that needs it to be pointed out that specific home you buy and the price you pay for it and the neighborhood you buy it in and the market you buy/sell in affect whether or not you make money.

Check out this chart Fuzzy...

http://cdn-2.stocks-for-beginners.com/image-files/dow-jones-index-1900-2010.jpg

Do you look at this chart and think that if you bought ANY individual stock in 1955 that you would have made money selling it 50 years later?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Your the one being obtuse with your stupid national chart. When you buy a house you aren't buying the entire US housing market so it goes without saying that if you overpay for a home in a declining neighborhood and/or sell at the worst time in history you might lose money. Your the only one in this thread that needs it to be pointed out that specific home you buy and the price you pay for it and the neighborhood you buy it in and the market you buy/sell in affect whether or not you make money.

Check out this chart Fuzzy...

http://cdn-2.stocks-for-beginners.com/image-files/dow-jones-index-1900-2010.jpg

Do you look at this chart and think that if you bought ANY individual stock in 1955 that you would have made money selling it 50 years later?

Given the logarithmic scale on the y-axis: hells yeah.

Even if that said what you wanted it to say, what part of he wasn't describing how to find a niche was difficult to understand? Generally speaking residential real estate is not a good investment relative to other opportunities particularly when you consider all of the taxes, maintenance, and other fees.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://www.aboutinflation.com/_/rsrc/1371876583194/inflation-adjusted-charts/us-index-sectors-inflation-adjusted-charts/dow-jones-industrial-average-inflation-adjusted-chart/Dow_Jones_Industrial_Average_Inflation_Adjusted_Hi storical_Chart_May_2013.png

Notice the nice positive slope as opposed to the housing market?

[SnakeBoy]

Do you look at this chart and think that if you bought ANY individual stock in 1955 that you would have made money selling it 50 years later?


Given the logarithmic scale on the y-axis: hells yeah.


http://campusriot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/will-smith-shaking-his-head-gif.gif

[xXx]

In my opinion, I buy an awesome but simple house to raise a family. If I want to make cash? I find the hottest agent I can bang and get into flipping.

[rmt]

Given the logarithmic scale on the y-axis: hells yeah.

Even if that said what you wanted it to say, what part of he wasn't describing how to find a niche was difficult to understand? Generally speaking residential real estate is not a good investment relative to other opportunities particularly when you consider all of the taxes, maintenance, and other fees.

The conversation was not in comparison to other opportunities - it was buying vs renting. You have to live somewhere and pay for that privilege (unless you're living rent-free with your parents) and under those conditions, home ownership is better than renting. And with the advent of airbnb, renting out space/bedroom can be an extra source of income. My dd and her friend are renting a bedroom/bath for around $2k per month while they intern - granted it's a high rental area but that was the cheapest I found booking more than 6 months out. When you rent, all those taxes, maintenance and other fees are paid by the tenant.

[pgardn]

Given the logarithmic scale on the y-axis: hells yeah.

.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with his argument.

And Why do you think they made the vertical axis logarithmic?

[Harry Callahan]

Buying seems to work over renting generally for the personal home. I could put $150K in my pocket tomorrow and be debt free for a day, but you have to live somewhere - a comparable house you have to pay a premium right now in the DFW. I'm glad I like my house.

The ideal scenario would be an empty nester who hates being around their kids (or kids hate being around them). They can downsize their home and put a bunch of long term cash in their pocket. I have a sibling and an in-law in the process of doing just that type of thing. It's going to be a good financial move for them.

The scary thing can be buying rental homes if you pick the wrong area - some friends of mine got burned buying in a crappy Ft Worth neighborhood. They ending up getting wiped out financially back in 08/09.

A lot of people, on the other hand, can really kick butt with a diversified batch of rental homes. I never had that particular inclination. Too much other stuff to do.

[Harry Callahan]

Regarding the stocks scenario, I utilize mutual funds to diversify - it smooths things out for me at least.

[CosmicCowboy]

Your the one being obtuse with your stupid national chart. When you buy a house you aren't buying the entire US housing market so it goes without saying that if you overpay for a home in a declining neighborhood and/or sell at the worst time in history you might lose money. Your the only one in this thread that needs it to be pointed out that specific home you buy and the price you pay for it and the neighborhood you buy it in and the market you buy/sell in affect whether or not you make money.

Check out this chart Fuzzy...

http://cdn-2.stocks-for-beginners.com/image-files/dow-jones-index-1900-2010.jpg

Do you look at this chart and think that if you bought ANY individual stock in 1955 that you would have made money selling it 50 years later?

Fuzzy is too stupid to understand what you were asking. Just like real estate is all about location, making money in the stock market is about buying the right stock. Only about 12% of the companies in the 1950 fortune 500 are still in the 2016 Fortune 500 and many of them are bankrupt.

[Harry Callahan]

Fuzzy is too stupid to understand what you were asking. Just like real estate is all about location, making money in the stock market is about buying the right stock. Only about 12% of the companies in the 1950 fortune 500 are still in the 2016 Fortune 500 and many of them are bankrupt.

This is absolutely correct. You have to be locked/focused in to picking individual stocks successfully.

Corporations can have very short life spans due to acquisition or failure. Now days especially.

[tlongII]

I bought my house in 97 for $145K. It's now worth $300K and will be paid off in a couple of months. I call that a good deal.

[Blake]

I bought my house in 97 for $145K. It's now worth $300K and will be paid off in a couple of months. I call that a good deal.

How much did you pay in interest. How much in upkeep have you spent in that time.

[xXx]

How much did you pay in interest. How much in upkeep have you spent in that time.

Don't be a detailed ass hole. Like me. Lol.

Bottom line, the old cooter chaser has a paid off 300k pad in the northwest and a solid job with Nike and Asian poontang at the ready....I should be so lucky.

[xXx]

I bought my house in 97 for $145K. It's now worth $300K and will be paid off in a couple of months. I call that a good deal.

Well done Mr. Long

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That has nothing whatsoever to do with his argument.

And Why do you think they made the vertical axis logarithmic?

Actually yeah it does because of you have the capacity to view linear then the slope becomes much more positive. The stock market is a much easier location to find investments plus it doesn't have near the holding costs.

Plus its not really logarithmic so much as its grouped by era. There has been a shit ton of growth in stock prices since IRA's compared to before.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I bought my house in 97 for $145K. It's now worth $300K and will be paid off in a couple of months. I call that a good deal.

From the standpoint of you have to pay rent anyway sure but the past 20 years have seen a cumulative inflation of about 50% and I guarantee you you have paid more than $80k in interest, maintenance and tax. Is that what your house appraises for btw?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy is too stupid to understand what you were asking. Just like real estate is all about location, making money in the stock market is about buying the right stock. Only about 12% of the companies in the 1950 fortune 500 are still in the 2016 Fortune 500 and many of them are bankrupt.

I know exactly what you are saying and I can find reams of economists and investors that say exactly what I am saying off a simple google search because it's a common opinion. You can also find people claiming what you claim but not nearly so much since the 2008 crash.

You still cannot address the transaction and holding costs inherent in real estate speculation and are doing your typical posturing without articulation. Fat and lazy is as fat and lazy does, pedobear.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://campusriot.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/will-smith-shaking-his-head-gif.gif

I understand the notion of aggregate.

Would you be more likely to make money off a random stock or a random home purchased in 1955?

[CosmicCowboy]

Fuzzy, we understand your frustration living with your mother.

Trying to shit on those of us that own nice homes however as 'bad investments" is just you trying to rationalize being a loser.

I know my home would rent for about $3000 a month and my note is $1600. I'm in the top income bracket so I write off almost 40% of the interest and taxes from that $1600 making my actual out of pocket about $1000 to live in a kick ass house on 2 acres in a great neighborhood with good schools.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy, we understand your frustration living with your mother.

Trying to shit on those of us that own nice homes however as 'bad investments" is just you trying to rationalize being a loser.

I know my home would rent for about $3000 a month and my note is $1600. I'm in the top income bracket so I write off almost 40% of the interest and taxes from that $1600 making my actual out of pocket about $1000 to live in a kick ass house on 2 acres in a great neighborhood with good schools.

Again, I don't live with my parents and own my home. My parents are dead.

I've already said from the standpoint of "I'm going to live it in anyway" that homeownership makes a ton of sense. I'm talking about real estate speculation, dimwit. I've been very clear about that and youre either intentionally obtuse or just plain stupid. I'm going with the latter, pedofattie.

[pgardn]

Actually yeah it does because of you have the capacity to view linear then the slope becomes much more positive. The stock market is a much easier location to find investments plus it doesn't have near the holding costs.

Plus its not really logarithmic so much as its grouped by era. There has been a shit ton of growth in stock prices since IRA's compared to before.

Its logarithmic to fit the page vertically given the time period used.

His key point was looking at this as an individual purchase. He basically stated this and it's a valid point for an individual buying a home. There are a lot of variables. This is how I interpreted snake post.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Its logarithmic to fit the page vertically given the time period used.

His key point was looking at this as an individual purchase. He basically stated this and it's a valid point for an individual buying a home. There are a lot of variables. This is how I interpreted snake post.

It's not logarithmic; I was mistaken on the first look. It's divided by epochs; the notion that you couldn't use a consistent linear scale and fit it on the page is ignorant. All of this is also besides the point as you take your pedantry to new levels.

Oh and Trump has ads on politico. I guess that makes them conservative now.

[pgardn]

It's not logarithmic; I was mistaken on the first look. It's divided by epochs; the notion that you couldn't use a consistent linear scale and fit it on the page is ignorant. All of this is also besides the point as you take your pedantry to new levels.

Oh and Trump has ads on politico. I guess that makes them conservative now.

Wow. You do hold on to things.

Nope. Not with the time scale given on the X axis. And there is no real way to tell if it is properly logarithmic as screen size and the way an image is cut can change scales. But it appears to be. Did you measure your screen with a ruler and determine this? No way you see this well on a phone or iPad. And since you like the past...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wow. You do hold on to things.

Nope. Not with the time scale given on the X axis. And there is no real way to tell if it is properly logarithmic as screen size and the way an image is cut can change scales. But it appears to be. Did you measure your screen with a ruler and determine this? No way you see this well on a phone or iPad. And since you like the past...

I just saw a Trump ad and it reminded me. Get over yourself.

I didn't need to and youre pretty ignorant. Log means that it will either increase or decrease exponentially depending on the log. The fact that it does both as it goes from age to age indicates clearly that is not the case. I don't need a ruler for that.

[pgardn]

New image coming

Still have yet to see a Republican ad. Even during their convention. They obviously have me pegged as a ranting liberal and you are uniquely in the middle of the road. Now on WSJ... Well that's a different story. But there is no correlation between ads on a site and the profiles of people who visit those sites. I often see guns scales advertised on vegan sites.

[pgardn]

I just saw a Trump ad and it reminded me. Get over yourself.

I didn't need to and youre pretty ignorant. Log means that it will either increase or decrease exponentially depending on the log. The fact that it does both as it goes from age to age indicates clearly that is not the case. I don't need a ruler for that.

That would be a log v. log graph smart guy. One axis appears linear the other exponential. Both types can be useful.
So now you get over yourself. You continue to step in it.

Show me the Trump ad on Politico, this would be interesting.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

That would be a log v. log graph smart guy. One axis appears linear the other exponential. Both types can be useful.
So now you get over yourself. You continue to step in it.

Show me the Trump ad on Politico, this would be interesting.

No dimwit my statement was only about the y axis.

[pgardn]

I just saw a Trump ad and it reminded me. Get over yourself.

I didn't need to and youre pretty ignorant. Log means that it will either increase or decrease exponentially depending on the log. The fact that it does both as it goes from age to age indicates clearly that is not the case. I don't need a ruler for that.

Yes you do need some measuring device. And I bet it won't come out perfect as screen sizes have different resolutions. But this escapes you. You Have no clue how to present or crtique data properly.

Show me your shot of a Trump or any Republican ad on Politico. I am truly interested.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yes you do need some measuring device. And I bet it won't come out perfect as screen sizes have different resolutions. But this escapes you. You Have no clue how to present or crtique data properly.

Show me your shot of a Trump or any Republican ad on Politico. I am truly interested.

The pixels on any monitor are all the same size regardless of resolution. The scales are all similar and given that I'm only talking about one axis that means aspect ratio is irrelevant. It doesn't escape me that you don't know what the fuck youre talking about.

https://secure.donaldjtrump.com/donate?utm_campaign=djt0721173841_0&utm_medium=ad&utm_source=0_politico_display&utm_content=0_Display&utm_term=0_donor_cpm

[pgardn]

The pixels on any monitor are all the same size regardless of resolution. The scales are all similar and given that I'm only talking about one axis that means aspect ratio is irrelevant. It doesn't escape me that you don't know what the fuck youre talking about.

https://secure.donaldjtrump.com/donate?utm_campaign=djt0721173841_0&utm_medium=ad&utm_source=0_politico_display&utm_content=0_Display&utm_term=0_donor_cpm

They don't have the same number of pixels vertically and horizontally you damn cumquat. The point is they scaled it as such to fit a screen legibly.


What is irrelevant is you pointing out a log vertical axis and trying to somehow pawn this off as a legit answer to an explanation you already attempted to distort. You meander through questions in which you did not see the point in the first place to attempt to find any foolish brand new assertion that might stick completely forgetting (on purpose) what the original debate was about. This is your MO. Distort, deflect, with a good helping of disingenuous.

Damn it man, control yourself. I had no idea this is why you have so many drawn out disagreements.
And I'm damn glad I scrolled right through them. Stop it. Please.

[pgardn]

https://secure.donaldjtrump.com/donate?utm_campaign=djt0721173841_0&utm_medium=ad&utm_source=0_politico_display&utm_content=0_Display&utm_term=0_donor_cpm

Wonderful.

Is this from Politico?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Wonderful.

Is this from Politico?

yup

[pgardn]

yup

Then were are the Politico articles with the ad?
Take a screen shot.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Then were are the Politico articles with the ad?
Take a screen shot.

http://oi64.tinypic.com/nnpdea.jpg

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://oi64.tinypic.com/nnpdea.jpg

Obviously biases for megalomaniacal oligarchs.

[pgardn]

Here is the politico on media page:

http://i63.tinypic.com/ng7r52.jpg

Your page looks nothing like this.
Where did you find this? Day and approximate time. Very different web layout.
Same thing with any link I follow, on any politico page.
Curious you started with a link that led to nothing from politico and then magic occurred...

[pgardn]

Here is the politico on media page:

http://i63.tinypic.com/ng7r52.jpg

Your page looks nothing like this.
Where did you find this? Day and approximate time. Very different web layout.
Same thing with any link I follow, on any politico page.
Curious you started with a link that led to nothing from politico and then magic occurred...

I have yet to find ONE ad for trump or any Republican. This is very strange don't you think.

[ElNono]

I have yet to find ONE ad for trump or any Republican. This is very strange don't you think.

I recommend uBlock, tbh, you don't get ads from either...

[pgardn]

I recommend uBlock, tbh, you don't get ads from either...

Fuzz and I are engaged in a highly critical study of advertising and the political leanings of different news websites. It's top secret stuff. We are going to coauthor a paper. We will be famous.

[Th'Pusher]

Obviously biases for megalomaniacal oligarchs.


I have yet to find ONE ad for trump or any Republican. This is very strange don't you think.

http://i1268.photobucket.com/albums/jj569/ThePusher/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsbzieg5zu.png (http://s1268.photobucket.com/user/ThePusher/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsbzieg5zu.png.html)

^ Politico and CNN both reporting on the exact same jobs report. The differences in the commentary are striking. Both 100% accurate, but convey a different message.

[CosmicCowboy]

Yeah, then in November they wlll revise it down to 150,000.

Was listening to the results as they came out. Interesting that virtually all the growth was in the service sector.

[boutons_deux]

Yeah, then in November they wlll revise it down to 150,000.

Was listening to the results as they came out. Interesting that virtually all the growth was in the service sector.

VRWC/BigCorp/BigFinance diminished the Real (Hard) Economy. Low-paying, low-education service economy, esp the gig economy, is where the shitty action is.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzz and I are engaged in a highly critical study of advertising and the political leanings of different news websites. It's top secret stuff. We are going to coauthor a paper. We will be famous.

No you just struggle with the notion of targeted advertising and don't know how to use script or ad blockers.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Here is the politico on media page:

http://i63.tinypic.com/ng7r52.jpg

Your page looks nothing like this.
Where did you find this? Day and approximate time. Very different web layout.
Same thing with any link I follow, on any politico page.
Curious you started with a link that led to nothing from politico and then magic occurred...

I just want to be clear here. It seems you are claiming that I manufactured an alternate web page and that is not indeed the site I screen shot.

[Big Empty]

Damn house prices seem high. I may just rent till the housing market blows up again. I wanted to buy but damn, a house that was 120k in 2009 is 170k now.

[boutons_deux]

Damn house prices seem high. I may just rent till the housing market blows up again. I wanted to buy but damn, a house that was 120k in 2009 is 170k now.

Bexar county appraisal of my house is up 30% in 12 years.

[boutons_deux]

https://res.cloudinary.com/apartment-list/image/upload/c_scale,w_600/v1496255829/YoY_National_rxuuu8.png

increases in rental costs well above inflation, and well above stagnant household incomes. 10Ms are paying 30%+ of their income in rent.

[tlongII]

Damn house prices seem high. I may just rent till the housing market blows up again. I wanted to buy but damn, a house that was 120k in 2009 is 170k now.

$170K is cheap!

[Big Empty]

$170K is cheap!

Its cheap to pay Patty Mills 15 million these days too when 5 years ago you could sign Chis Paul for 15 million. If I was buying Chris Paul still for 170k Id pull the trigger LOL

[SnakeBoy]

Damn house prices seem high. I may just rent till the housing market blows up again. I wanted to buy but damn, a house that was 120k in 2009 is 170k now.

The SA market is only forecast to go up. You'll be renting a long time if you are going to wait for 2009 prices to return.

[TDMVPDPOY]

why didn't u buy during or after the gfc when rates were very low and house prices crash,

unless u thought prices had no growth, why u looking for growth when ur not an investor, u looking for ur first house u call home...and ur first home will never be ur last, just get yourself into the market with some sort of equity then it be easier to go to a bank barrow more for next purchase

[Big Empty]

why didn't u buy during or after the gfc when rates were very low and house prices crash,

unless u thought prices had no growth, why u looking for growth when ur not an investor, u looking for ur first house u call home...and ur first home will never be ur last, just get yourself into the market with some sort of equity then it be easier to go to a bank barrow more for next purchase have home prices ever decreased l? i dont want to get stuck with a mortgage and be upside down if home prices go down. I can see me trying to buy sn even bigger house doen the road. I have no clue about real estate like i do with investibg in the market. But has there ever been a time when say that 150k house lost the value? Bouts said the market went up 30% the last 5 years. Could it go doen 30% with another bubble burst? Trump is deregulating alot of shit so it could happen again doen the road is my concern.

[pgardn]

have home prices ever decreased l? i dont want to get stuck with a mortgage and be upside down if home prices go down. I can see me trying to buy sn even bigger house doen the road. I have no clue about real estate like i do with investibg in the market. But has there ever been a time when say that 150k house lost the value? Bouts said the market went up 30% the last 5 years. Could it go doen 30% with another bubble burst? Trump is deregulating alot of shit so it could happen again doen the road is my concern.

Las Vegas, Detroit, Cleveland... All after our little mortgage handout problem. The stock market took the plunge as well, but housing was a big cause. The movie "The Big Short" is a pretty good story concerning this.

Personally I still never look at a house I live in as an investment. If you are at some point, upside down, so what if you are not selling. You got a place to live.