The Meager Cliff Dwelling of Livio-Jean Charles

[callo1]

I put him in a cliff dwelling so we can all jump off if need be. :lol

So what does the signing of Lee do to the status of LVC?

Is Lee the veteran insurance that Pop always likes around, or have the Spurs seen enough of LVC to believe he isn't close yet?

Do the Spurs plan on putting him on the shelf in Austin, or giving him some playing time and then trading him before the deadline?

[MaNu4Tres]

He was going to be in Austin most of the season before the Lee signing.

[SAGirl]

We really did need an experienced big. LJC needed to work on his game regardless.

Here I am lighting candles in a shrine so that he develops this season, but he will need time. Also, no I don't think he will be put in the trade block his rookie year. It's very unlike Pop. They will give him Austin time and evaluate the situation next summer, when they have to decide ahead of time to pick up the option on his third season. Rookie scale deals are such a bargain that it's really worth it to give guys a season at least before jumping off the cliff.
https://67.media.tumblr.com/9ecb6119bee4064ee3c2627171353ae3/tumblr_n5gfb51Nsr1qbp72yo1_500.gif

[BackHome]

I don't know after we dumped Butler mid season and after we traded Diaw I don't think he is above bring traded/cut.

[SAGirl]

I don't know after we dumped Butler mid season and after we traded Diaw I don't think he is above bring traded/cut.
Butler was a veteran and so was Diaw. This is a young guy 22 years old. If they didn't intend to give him at least a season, why pick him up at all. Even Daye got a season and Ayers got two and they were scrubs. Now if he doesn't improve in a season that's different, but this is a young draft pick, not to be judged like some vet.

[Obi Juan Kenobi]

I ain't contributing to no collection plate here...

[TheGreatYacht]

Lee was promised a good role, was the biggest reason he chose us. That means Livio is Austin bound (He really, really, really, needs it)

[From Downtown]

Count me in
He's the 6th big right now (with Kyle/Bertans getting minutes at the 4), but if we work on him he might become a nice role player as he's got the IQ and the athletic tools

[SAGirl]

Found on reddit scout notes posted from draftexpress scout Joshua Riddell on Livio Jean Charles, Davis Bertans and Dejounte Murray
https://www.reddit.com/r/NBASpurs/comments/4sgksz/davis_bertans_and_livio_jeancharles_scouting_notes/

(https://www.reddit.com/r/NBASpurs/comments/4sgksz/davis_bertans_and_livio_jeancharles_scouting_notes/)
Hey guys. I am a writer for DraftExpress and have a basketball scouting notes database. See twitter account here (https://twitter.com/Joshua_Riddell). I recently put up scouting notes on Davis Bertans and Livio Jean-Charles and wanted to share my thoughts.

See the links for full scouting notes but I will put some abbreviated thoughts here.
Livio Jean-Charles full notes (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GG5XsWIWf9v6HKYUG_4cUsrwYxw0g2mUctWhQmcQzn8/edit#gid=1759867790): Athletic but not super skilled. Relies on his teammates to put him in scoring position around the rim. Will have to be a perimeter player at 6'9" but not comfortable shooting or even handling the ball from the perimeter. Can get some baskets in transition, on offensive rebounds or cuts from the baseline but has to become better at timing his cuts from the 3 point line. Has to find his offensive niche to make defenses guard him or exploit them losing him with well-timed cuts. Not as good as a defensive asset as you want for someone who is limited offensively. Has the physical tools but doesn't move that quick laterally because he's in a poor stance and hasn't really put up statistical production you would expect with his wingspan and athleticism. Only 22 - same age as a college senior so he can develop in a few years but may struggle to earn consistent rotation minutes this season.

Thanks!



There is a link to google docs where if you are interested you can read more about them or other rookies who played and the notes he gathered for summer league rookies. I browsed through some of them to find out his opinion on some guys I watched.

The above are some abbreviated notes. LJC looks like he has a lot of work to do to improve even defensively and it's a concern. I still think the Spurs evaluate him after giving him a season. The Spurs have demonstrated a lot of patience with their rookies though and I think they will do the same for Livio at least his first season. He probably does have to show improvement just like all projects after a reasonable opportunity but it's unlikely to be relevant only after given a sufficient opportunity until next season.

[T Park]

OMG hes 22!! give up on him!!! :rolleyes

[alpha_HaZE]

Found on reddit scout notes posted from draftexpress scout Joshua Riddell on Livio Jean Charles, Davis Bertans and Dejounte Murray
https://www.reddit.com/r/NBASpurs/comments/4sgksz/davis_bertans_and_livio_jeancharles_scouting_notes/

(https://www.reddit.com/r/NBASpurs/comments/4sgksz/davis_bertans_and_livio_jeancharles_scouting_notes/)
There is a link to google docs where if you are interested you can read more about them or other rookies who played and the notes he gathered for summer league rookies. I browsed through some of them to find out his opinion on some guys I watched.

The above are some abbreviated notes. LJC looks like he has a lot of work to do to improve even defensively and it's a concern. I still think the Spurs evaluate him after giving him a season. The Spurs have demonstrated a lot of patience with their rookies though and I think they will do the same for Livio at least his first season. He probably does have to show improvement just like all projects after a reasonable opportunity but it's unlikely to be relevant only after given a sufficient opportunity until next season.

Nice find thanks for sharing! LJC is an intriguing prospect.

[jyra]

Hm I expected somewhat more comprehensive notes from an actual scout. There is no mention of screen setting, post defense, ability as a help defender, working the P&R as the roll man, catching the ball.

[Chinook]

Hm I expected somewhat more comprehensive notes from an actual scout. There is no mention of screen setting, post defense, ability as a help defender, working the P&R as the roll man, catching the ball.

Me too, and him scouting LJC as a wing when the dude is closer to a center than a SF is interesting. Definitely needs a lot or work, on his body more than anything else right now. Give him a corner-three and get him to a point where he can physically hold up against NBA bigs, and he can get minutes. Trying to develop ball-handling and cuts from the three-point line is a good way to get him cut.

[jyra]

Also just noticed this strange detail about Bertans:


- Good wingspan - 7'3 or so (estimated)

I mean even if your are generous you can't possbily think that Bertans has a wingspan longer than 7 ft. It seems that there aren't any official measurements but Draftexpress itself described his wingspan as average (6'10 like his height) during the draft process.

[Chinook]

Also just noticed this strange detail about Bertans:



I mean even if your are generous you can't possbily think that Bertans has a wingspan longer than 7 ft. It seems that there aren't any official measurements but Draftexpress itself described his wingspan as average (6'10 like his height) during the draft process.

Well, Bertans was 18 back when that report came out. He could be longer now.

[jyra]

Well, Bertans was 18 back when that report came out. He could be longer now.

I guess it is possible but growing from 6'10 to 7'3 seems just a bit unlikely to me. Watching him play last season (and before that), I never thought that he was particularly long. You don't see him getting rebounds out of his area or deflections and steals with regularity.

[MarCowMar]

It's crazy we sign this guy to the team and we basically have to teach him the game of basketball from scratch. WTF.

[Chinook]

It's crazy we sign this guy to the team and we basically have to teach him the game of basketball from scratch. WTF.

Wouldn't been much easier when he was 19.

[gambit1990]

i care about him even less after seeing how garino plays.

[BackHome]

The whole issue with Livio is we tried to make a SF out of a PF. So he was kinda stuck between two positions his team tried him at SF but he couldn't do it so I think they just gave up and kept him at PF b

[kaji157]

Will be competing for the title of the "worst french player to ever play for the Spurs". So far in the hands of "2016 Boris Diaw".

[SAGirl]

The full notes are in a spreadsheet. You had to click on the guy's link. I thought they were comprehensive:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GG5XsWIWf9v6HKYUG_4cUsrwYxw0g2mUctWhQmcQzn8/htmlview#gid=1759867790

[ceperez]

I guess it is possible but growing from 6'10 to 7'3 seems just a bit unlikely to me. Watching him play last season (and before that), I never thought that he was particularly long. You don't see him getting rebounds out of his area or deflections and steals with regularity.

The 7'3" wingspan is likely wrong given Bertans very narrow shoulders.

[DrunkTXLabrat]

Spurs next Malcolm Thomas/JaMichael Green. If you thought Poop sweeping LJC under a French rug was fun, you're gonna love Austin this basketball season.

[thiste]

Will be competing for the title of the "worst french player to ever play for the Spurs". So far in the hands of "2016 Boris Diaw".

You forget Mahimni and Nando.

[kaji157]

You forget Mahimni and Nando.

Oh yeah.
Deffinitelly Mahimi. Nando at least got to play.

[BackHome]

Yeah I think he is another Mahimi but a lot depends on how fast he can pick things up and also how much he wants it. Also Mahimi was made out of glass when he was with us every year he was hurt so that didn't help his development. But I don't see Livio touching the NBA floor until the following season he needs that much improvement.

[rudwick]

LJC is another spelling of sucks.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Great thread title. :tu

I know almost nothing about the guy, but I reckon the Spurs will make LJC into a functional bench player. They would not have brought him over if he wasn't willing to work hard, and players who work hard for the Spurs usually become functional NBA players if they stick for more than a season.

[SAGirl]

Well it's that time of the season to start getting ready for the preseason games and thought I'd revisit Livio. What the heck happened to him in France? This is him at the Nike Hoop Summit in 2013 at 19 years old:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peevx2eczXg

There's rebounding there, there is 3 point shooting, there are drives off the dribble to the basket. Where is all that? Obviously his handle is not going to be good enough to be making straight line drives like that in the NBA but now there is absolutely nothing of that in his game. It seems his shooting never developed to the point where he could realistically be played as a perimeter player and I wonder if Chip Engeland will get with him (and Dijon) to rework and fix their shots. It would definitely open up Livio's game (and Dijon's but that is another thread). In Summer League it was like he was a completely different player.

[Solid D]

I think his role now is rebounding and playing defense. He'll have to impress the staff enough by doing that well. (doubt it)

[Chinook]

Livio getting a corner- three would be fascinating. But he has to figure out his rebounding. Dude's a PF, and in the league, he should be able to play there. But his skills need to match up.

[CGD]

Poor man's Tristan Thompson, or if he can get a reliable shot a homeless mans Ibaka

[SAGirl]

Really needs to rebound better. His rebounding numbers were bad in SL and seemed to have not so good hands. I remember him blocking out and boxing out bigs though and Dijon is an active rebounder, so maybe Livio blocking out allowed Dijon to sweep in grab boards.

Still it's definitely something worth keeping an eye on during preseason when we see him. It's the little things like that with Livio. Definitely.

[Em-City]

Poor man's Tristan Thompson, or if he can get a reliable shot a homeless mans Ibaka

tristan thompson can rebound very well on both ends of the floor, and could even be considered elite in that area of the game.

JLC hasn't proven he can rebound even at a rosterable level for a SF or PF for that matter.

[G-Dawgg]

Livio's value on this spurs team will be his ability to defend vs small ball teams. He can be a versatile defender. He is long enough to defend the interior and block some shots and grab some boards yet he's mobile enough to defend on the perimeter. In today's era of small ball this combination will be very key.

[SAGirl]

Livio's value on this spurs team will be his ability to defend vs small ball teams. He is long enough to defend the interior and block some shots and grab some boards yet he's mobile enough to defend on the perimeter. In today's era of small ball this combination will be very key...
Agreed. There is something there but not enough, but he's learning. Realistically it won't be till next season that we will see what he can do. We have seen with other Spurs rookies the huge improvements they can make from one season to another. These guys are still learning how to play, obviously defense is where he's going to have to get his bread buttered.

[G-Dawgg]

Agreed. There is something there but not enough, but he's learning. Realistically it won't be till next season that we will see what he can do. We have seen with other Spurs rookies the huge improvements they can make from one season to another. These guys are still learning how to play, obviously defense is where he's going to have to get his bread buttered.

If he fullfills his potential, he could be a very key element to the Spurs defense. Especially defending the pick and roll vs small ball teams. But you're absolutely right, he definitely will have a lot of learning to do. I don't expect him to really be much of a contributer for a long time...

[Kawhitstorm]

Poor man's Tristan Thompson, or if he can get a reliable shot a homeless mans Ibaka

More like Mbah a Moute 2.0

[ceperez]

no highlights from the first pre-season game?

[T Park]

He actually looked pretty decent last night. Even flashed a really nice hook shot. However, the game was so muddled and badly officiated that it's impossible to garner anything from it

[SAGirl]

789900143571050496

[BillMc]

Hope he stays in Austin.

[SAGirl]

Hope he stays in Austin.

From what I saw on twitter Spurs were hoping both him and Garino stay in Austin. It's hard to say with Garino bc he's likely to get offers from clubs in Europe and elsewhere, but if he wants to stay visible while working on his game, Dleague is the quickest way to get a callup.

Livio is getting his guaranteed contract $ so Austin makes a ton of sense for him.

[BillMc]

From what I saw on twitter Spurs were hoping both him and Garino stay in Austin. It's hard to say with Garino bc he's likely to get offers from clubs in Europe and elsewhere, but if he wants to stay visible while working on his game, Dleague is the quickest way to get a callup.

Livio is getting his guaranteed contract $ so Austin makes a ton of sense for him.

Agreed. Though I'm more interested in keeping Garino in the greater organization then Livio, but obviously would like to have both about

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Hopefully in the next CBA they think about adding a couple more roster spots for development purposes - for players on rookie and min contracts. Would allow teams space to sign their second round picks and develop them.

[ceperez]

Jean-Charles only real option is to stick with the Austin Spurs where he'll get better training.

He already got 2 years worth of guaranteed salary and he's not going to get better playing in Europe.

Besides, the only team that seems to have some faith in him is the Spurs. It's just ridiculous that the Spurs threw away a first round draft pick and 2 years of salary for nothing. The player is so obscure that there isn't any video of him playing for the Spurs.

[ElNono]

OMG hes 22!! give up on him!!! :rolleyes

Draino, try it

[waisman]

Too poor , Even though he is athletic PF player .
he is not athletic PF player in NBA.

[jhfenton]

Hopefully in the next CBA they think about adding a couple more roster spots for development purposes - for players on rookie and min contracts. Would allow teams space to sign their second round picks and develop them.

That is reportedly under discussion: expanding rosters to 17, increasing D-league salaries, and allowing 2-way contracts (like the NHL). So a player would have different salaries depending on whether he was in Austin or called up.

[waisman]

SAS should have kept JaMychal Green .

[SAGirl]

790693719775191040

[cd98]

790693719775191040

Yikes. He was awful in the Houston game. He was 4 steps behind every one which is bad considering he was playing in garbage time. I don't know that he will ever play in the NBA.

[rastaspur]

Yikes. He was awful in the Houston game. He was 4 steps behind every one which is bad considering he was playing in garbage time. I don't know that he will ever play in the NBA.

He wont. You can take that to the bank.

[tonight...you]

Agreed. Though I'm more interested in keeping Garino in the greater organization then Livio, but obviously would like to have both about
Getting pumped about making some in-season bets involving some of these MST3K and Rifftrax vids I own, completely legally, that I'm ready to put on the line...

Who am I kidding? PM me and I'll let you borrow a few of my 400 originals for a brother-MST3K/CinematicTitanic/TheMovieGuys/Rifftrax-in-arms. For a limited time, of course. I'm sure I will demand them back at some point...

[SAGirl]

Livio returning to Asvel.

Livio Jean-Charles will return to ASVEL, a French team owned by Tony Parker.
Jean-Charles came to the United States this season but was released by the San Antonio Spurs in training camp.
Jean-Charles spent the season in the D-League with the Austin Spurs, averaging 9.9 points and 5.5 rebounds.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/245450/Livio-Jean-Charles-Returns-To-ASVEL

[sasaint]

Livio returning to Asvel.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/245450/Livio-Jean-Charles-Returns-To-ASVEL

Wow! I didn't see that coming. Maybe it is an omen for Tony...

[palangi]

He got so much better playing here. Now he will go back there and regress. Very unfortunate.

[SAGirl]

I am very rusty in French.
Anyways, Livio is returning to play in the dleague next season:
http://www.bebasket.fr/championnat-pro-a/livio-jean-charles-devrait-retourner-en-d-league.html

I suppose, before judging... remember Simmons played there 2 seasons and was 26 when he signed his first NBA contract.

Livio is 3 years younger than that and he's still getting paid by the Spurs... so the Livio experiment might not be over.

[Chinook]

I am very rusty in French.
Anyways, Livio is returning to play in the dleague next season:
http://www.bebasket.fr/championnat-pro-a/livio-jean-charles-devrait-retourner-en-d-league.html

I suppose, before judging... remember Simmons played there 2 seasons and was 26 when he signed his first NBA contract.

Livio is 3 years younger than that and he's still getting paid by the Spurs... so the Livio experiment might not be over.

Appreciate it. I'm not even rough in French. I can just catch snatches of meaning here or there.

I hope this means Livio is coming back on a two-way deal. I would rather the team retain control of him in case he does play well. I think he really started putting it together at the end of his time in Austin.

[dabom]

Dude is a bucket.

[Chinook]

Also is this a first look at a functional D-League system overseas? It would seem like Livio went to ASVEL to get a bump in pay/competition. Right now, it takes a lot of hand-shaking among the three teams and the player. But if the G-League doesn't take off, I could see more teams looking to establish farm relationships with second- and third-tier Euro teams.

[TheDoctor]

Google Translated the article. It suxs but its better than not speaking French at all.


LIVIO JEAN-CHARLES SHOULD RETURN TO D-LEAGUELivio JeanCharles to the DLeague


Photo credit: Sébastien Grasset
Livio Jean-Charles should try his luck again in D-League next year. With the ambition to cross the cape of the NBA ...
Livio Jean-Charles (2.03 m, 23 years old) will not wear the ASVEL jersey next season. Club president Tony Parker confirmed this in an interview with Progress.


"Livio gave me great pleasure, he wants to stay in D-League and try again in the NBA. He can succeed. "
The wing joined ASVEL in April after Austin Spurs regular season (not entered D-League playoffs). The Guyanese played in the development league after being cut by San Antonio on the eve of the NBA regular season.

On his Pro A season end, the Guyanese showed real progress, averaging 10.3 points on 52.3% of shooting, 4.9 rebounds, 1.3 steals and 3 fouls in 29 minutes in playoffs (11.3 in 23 minutes out of the nine regular season games).

[exstatic]

Also is this a first look at a functional D-League system overseas? It would seem like Livio went to ASVEL to get a bump in pay/competition. Right now, it takes a lot of hand-shaking among the three teams and the player. But if the G-League doesn't take off, I could see more teams looking to establish farm relationships with second- and third-tier Euro teams.
It helps when the PG on the big club helps him make more cash and get experience on the team he owns in Europe, before releasing him to return to the G-league.

[ceperez]

Explain to me why LJC is again in Summer League and why the hell does the Spurs have a cap hold on him when he got waived?

Did he get waived or something else happened?

[ceperez]

I am very rusty in French.
Anyways, Livio is returning to play in the dleague next season:
http://www.bebasket.fr/championnat-pro-a/livio-jean-charles-devrait-retourner-en-d-league.html

I suppose, before judging... remember Simmons played there 2 seasons and was 26 when he signed his first NBA contract.

Livio is 3 years younger than that and he's still getting paid by the Spurs... so the Livio experiment might not be over.

I understand that the Spurs are still paying him, but do they have his rights?

[jyra]

Explain to me why LJC is again in Summer League and why the hell does the Spurs have a cap hold on him when he got waived?

Did he get waived or something else happened?

He was signed to a rookie scale deal that included guaranteed salary for the first two years (year 1 $1,122,792, year 2 $1,035,200). They gave up his rights when they waived him. I would imagine that the Spurs would still be his primary destination if he wanted to sign a two way contract.

[ceperez]

He was signed to a rookie scale deal that included guaranteed salary for the first two years (year 1 $1,122,792, year 2 $1,035,200). They gave up his rights when they waived him. I would imagine that the Spurs would still be his primary destination if he wanted to sign a two way contract.

So if Spurs sign him this season, they could have to pay him twice?

[objective]

So if Spurs sign him this season, they could have to pay him twice?

sure looks that way

[cjw]

So if Spurs sign him this season, they could have to pay him twice?

Yeah, but the first is a sunk cost. Nothing they can do about that million bucks.

[tholdren]

He was signed to a rookie scale deal that included guaranteed salary for the first two years (year 1 $1,122,792, year 2 $1,035,200). They gave up his rights when they waived him. I would imagine that the Spurs would still be his primary destination if he wanted to sign a two way contract.

Lol he just found out he sucks, huh? I could have saved him some time

[Chinook]

Best offensive game of his stateside career. Showed improved hands and didn't try to do too much outside that fastbreak. He just needs to put that together with some of the defense he played two years ago. Deserved more minutes than he got.

[dabom]

Dude is a bucket.

[ceperez]

Best offensive game of his stateside career. Showed improved hands and didn't try to do too much outside that fastbreak. He just needs to put that together with some of the defense he played two years ago. Deserved more minutes than he got.

Good to hear. Hope he takes it to the next level.

[sasaint]

Best offensive game of his stateside career. Showed improved hands and didn't try to do too much outside that fastbreak. He just needs to put that together with some of the defense he played two years ago. Deserved more minutes than he got.

Hopefully next game - for LJC and Jefferson both.