Do you think we see the "Beautiful Game" more this season?

[raybies]

I wonder if we focused a little more on post ups and Isos to further develop Kawhi and to get Lamarcus acclimated to the system. Most of starting unit is not known as being exceptional passed but Pau can pass and if they get the ball moving, we have shooters. Pau can also roll to the basket very well so that opens up the aspect of getting the ball moving again if we choose to play that way. Not gonna focus on the pick and pop or high low. Last year we severely lacked players that could effectively roll and I think that's another reason we went more the way we did. You put Manu in for Green and Patty for Parker and you got a pretty capable team to move the ball. I think this year we'll see an increase of ball movement. Imo it will be a balancing act between getting Leonard his looks, Aldridge his looks and Pau his. Alot is solved though if you just run the pick and roll and just let who's open shoot . Pop said last year he envied the warriors ball movement and the key to that is the pick and roll. Now we have the players that can effectively roll, Gasol, Dedmon, and Lee. Last year we had none. I think this year the plan is to remain strong defensively but get the offense better looks. Yeah I guess Boban could roll well and he did when he played, but that's when he played. I don't want to bring back the beautiful game if it's not there but that's our brand. It use to be defense but now we've built on that and added the precision and paying. I hope we go back this year. We have the pieces. Pau is good passer, is he better than Splitter? And Kyle can pass too, he just needs to be put in pivotal positions like draymond.

[cutewizard]

Why not?

[From Downtown]

Don't know about the starters, but if the bench guys learn how to play with each other and Manu stays relatively healthy we might see it from them
Manu, Mills, Bertans, KA, Lee are all competent passers and high IQ players, and Dedmon's great at rolling to the basket (wich is something that as we all know fits well with Manu but also Kyle)

[raybies]

Don't know about the starters, but if the bench guys learn how to play with each other and Manu stays relatively healthy we might see it from them
Manu, Mills, Bertans, KA, Lee are all competent passers and high IQ players, and Dedmon's great at rolling to the basket (wich is something that as we all know fits well with Manu but also Kyle)

Share this thought about the starters. Not great passers but I wonder if Pau rolling to the basket will be enough to just get the ball rolling. Tony, Kawhi, and Green already have experience in that system so at least they'll make the simple play, it's the deadeye passes that get the layup or the open three that I wonder if they can do.

[mookie2001]

Junk term. means nothing

[TheGoldStandard]

I second the motion of the second unit running more of a fluid motion offense, that group will actually spread the floor better.. That 1st unit is going to be PnR Galore with back cuts but I envision a lot of long twos from practically everyone but Kawhi and Green.

[cutewizard]

This is an interesting site:

http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/complete-history-of-the-nba/#spurs

[K...]

The addition of bertans is the only sign we're going to use the so called pace and space. He's really ideal for that. Everything else says it's bully the bigs again. Interior passing is great, but I'd imagine the correct term for our offense will be:

Smart man's classy four down. That is there will be some motion, some mid-range, but it all starts with the post mid-range threat

[gambit1990]

if we trade tp for rubio.

[wildbill2u]

God I would love to see it. It was the purest form of basketball seen in the league in many years as cited by Lebron James and Chris Bosh after their defeat in 14. The proof of the pudding is that some very good teams like GSW and Cleveland began to use the passing game in their repertoire.

[K...]

if we trade tp for rubio.

A non shooting guard? Do you even know what the beautiful game takes? Shooters. !!!# if you're going to entertain fantasy transactions at least lick a guy with an outside shot.

[gambit1990]

A non shooting guard? Do you even know what the beautiful game takes? Shooters. !!!# if you're going to entertain fantasy transactions at least lick a guy with an outside shot.
he'll move the ball you stupid bitch.

[Leetonidas]

If mills and Green regain their form, Bertans is solid, and Anderson has indeed improved his 3, then Spurs have a good amount of downtown threats. pau is also an excellent passer and Spurs have some bigs who can work on a PnR now. I think we will see some definitely and maybe not see so many games that we only score 18 points in the first

[gambit1990]

A non shooting guard? Do you even know what the beautiful game takes? Shooters. !!!# if you're going to entertain fantasy transactions at least lick a guy with an outside shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km6Kpp4igs4
but he can't shoot :madrun:cry

i'd take rubio who can't shoot over tp who can't even dream of passing like rubio.

[Obstructed_View]

The beautiful game wasn't from great passing and shooting, it was from great pick-setting. I'd love to see that happen, but the reality is that this team is full of aging veterans who don't play defense, young stars who don't set picks or pass, and really really young and inexperienced guys off the bench. The 2014 team was veterans who play great defense, an entire roster of guys who set picks and pass, and a bench full of really seasoned guys who knew the system back and forwards.

[Russ]

Beautiful and so slooooow . . .

[SAGirl]

I'll join in your conversation. I don't know what to expect. The team is apparently going to have more post ups anyways and have looked for players who post up. Not only has Pop added post up bigs to the team in the past couple of seasons, he has also sought to develop a post up game in his young forwards. I think this is part of a desire by Pop to slow the game down while getting a good look for the team, as well as getting advantage of the abilities of the best players. However, the fact that Pop has had young guys develop a post up game who previously didn't rely on that to score, makes me think the post up is here to stay no matter what.

The beautiful game included post ups from Boris too, the issue is Boris was deadly attacking undersized players and passing as soon as he drew help. We shall see how our new crop of bigs handles this.

I think the modern-day switching defenses have also made it so that sometimes out of a pick, all you get is a mismatch. Players have to attack it bc sometimes that's the best shot you get and others won't be open at the 3. Not having a real threat on the roll was a factor last season as Manutres and others pointed out. Not having a guard who could exploit the switch with a big was another.

Guys in between, mainly the forwards need to exploit the mismatch in different ways, either going inside and at least drawing a foul on the post over an overwhelmed smaller defender or pull up for an outside shot if a big wants to prevent a drive. The forward IMO is the most versatile spot in bball bc they can do so many things. They are not as terribly disadvantaged defensively as the small or big guy on a mismatch, but they also don't have a huge mismatch advantage offensively, so it looks different on the other end. The team added two PnR bigs this season, but guards are still sketchy. Until Dijon comes of age (or Pop adds younger guards in FA) I guess the team will feature a forward centric style bc our main guards are just too old.

Manu may get away with the PnR in the RS but in the post season teams will figure out he's not that threatening if you take away the pass and scheme him out which is why I would rather see Manu teach someone younger to run the PnR than to see him do it himself. Hopefully we see Dijon through the season. I have less hope on JSimms but he should get a stab at it too.

Bottom line, I think Pop wants to go back to moving the ball and he's added shooters, passers, rollers and slashers, but some guys are too young, others too old and the ones in their prime are the forwards so we will still see a lot of plays for the forwards.

[Sean Cagney]

I'll join in your conversation. I don't know what to expect. The team is apparently going to have more post ups anyways and have looked for players who post up. Not only has Pop added post up bigs to the team in the past couple of seasons, he has also sought to develop a post up game in his young forwards. I think this is part of a desire by Pop to slow the game down while getting a good look for the team, as well as getting advantage of the abilities of the best players. However, the fact that Pop has had young guys develop a post up game who previously didn't rely on that to score, makes me think the post up is here to stay no matter what.

The beautiful game included post ups from Boris too, the issue is Boris was deadly attacking undersized players and passing as soon as he drew help. We shall see how our new crop of bigs handles this.

I think the modern-day switching defenses have also made it so that sometimes out of a pick, all you get is a mismatch. Players have to attack it bc sometimes that's the best shot you get and others won't be open at the 3. Not having a real threat on the roll was a factor last season as Manutres and others pointed out. Not having a guard who could exploit the switch with a big was another.

Guys in between, mainly the forwards need to exploit the mismatch in different ways, either going inside and at least drawing a foul on the post over an overwhelmed smaller defender or pull up for an outside shot if a big wants to prevent a drive. The forward IMO is the most versatile spot in bball bc they can do so many things. They are not as terribly disadvantaged defensively as the small or big guy on a mismatch, but they also don't have a huge mismatch advantage offensively, so it looks different on the other end. The team added two PnR bigs this season, but guards are still sketchy. Until Dijon comes of age (or Pop adds younger guards in FA) I guess the team will feature a forward centric style bc our main guards are just too old.

Manu may get away with the PnR in the RS but in the post season teams will figure out he's not that threatening if you take away the pass and scheme him out which is why I would rather see Manu teach someone younger to run the PnR than to see him do it himself. Hopefully we see Dijon through the season. I have less hope on JSimms but he should get a stab at it too.

Bottom line, I think Pop wants to go back to moving the ball and he's added shooters, passers, rollers and slashers, but some guys are too young, others too old and the ones in their prime are the forwards so we will still see a lot of plays for the forwards.
This ^^^

[cutewizard]

I'll join in your conversation. I don't know what to expect. The team is apparently going to have more post ups anyways and have looked for players who post up. Not only has Pop added post up bigs to the team in the past couple of seasons, he has also sought to develop a post up game in his young forwards. I think this is part of a desire by Pop to slow the game down while getting a good look for the team, as well as getting advantage of the abilities of the best players. However, the fact that Pop has had young guys develop a post up game who previously didn't rely on that to score, makes me think the post up is here to stay no matter what.

The beautiful game included post ups from Boris too, the issue is Boris was deadly attacking undersized players and passing as soon as he drew help. We shall see how our new crop of bigs handles this.

I think the modern-day switching defenses have also made it so that sometimes out of a pick, all you get is a mismatch. Players have to attack it bc sometimes that's the best shot you get and others won't be open at the 3. Not having a real threat on the roll was a factor last season as Manutres and others pointed out. Not having a guard who could exploit the switch with a big was another.

Guys in between, mainly the forwards need to exploit the mismatch in different ways, either going inside and at least drawing a foul on the post over an overwhelmed smaller defender or pull up for an outside shot if a big wants to prevent a drive. The forward IMO is the most versatile spot in bball bc they can do so many things. They are not as terribly disadvantaged defensively as the small or big guy on a mismatch, but they also don't have a huge mismatch advantage offensively, so it looks different on the other end. The team added two PnR bigs this season, but guards are still sketchy. Until Dijon comes of age (or Pop adds younger guards in FA) I guess the team will feature a forward centric style bc our main guards are just too old.

Manu may get away with the PnR in the RS but in the post season teams will figure out he's not that threatening if you take away the pass and scheme him out which is why I would rather see Manu teach someone younger to run the PnR than to see him do it himself. Hopefully we see Dijon through the season. I have less hope on JSimms but he should get a stab at it too.

Bottom line, I think Pop wants to go back to moving the ball and he's added shooters, passers, rollers and slashers, but some guys are too young, others too old and the ones in their prime are the forwards so we will still see a lot of plays for the forwards.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Correct me if im wrong but is this not the Paul Pressey innovation applied to a whole team?

Kudos! Im learning a lot from your, more power!

[99 Problems]

Not sure we'll ever see it again tbh.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Ball stopped a lot with LMA and Kawhi. I expect it to get better as I don't think either are selfish players but Gasol will take time in his own right. Boris being gone from the second unit will also hurt.

If this core can stay together then there is a chance next year but i don't see that level of continuity this season.

[Chinook]

That takes time to really get right. With so many new faces, I don't have much hope for this year, but a Mills/Forbes/other shooting guard, Murray, Bertans, Anderson Dedmon bench has the potential to be around for a long time. I could definitely see something beautiful growing out of that.

[John Petrucci]

Highly doubt it. Every player on the floor has to be a creative or at least very willing passer with elite natural bball instincts. We've got some finishers for sure, but the ball won't be moving around like it did then any time soon. More often I'd guess we'll be relying on our elite passers to make that one correct pass/hockey assist (outside of us of course relying on tons of isos from Kawhi/LMA) , as opposed to the way the system flowed so effortlessly in 2014. Please let Manu stay healthy next season :lol

[SAGirl]

^^ The chemistry aspect is well brought up as well as the team's identity and Pop's experiments. It's going to be interesting to see how it all comes together.

[Fireball]

it is dead

[raybies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3y7cWmoBCI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNZvNs6r800

Sorry I don't want to torture people but posted these vids for analysis purposes.

Okay with that said, I hate to think that the best is behind us. Maybe Pop's masterpiece is resurrecting "the beautiful game". Pop has always been someone that has experimented. Last year we were left without a pick and roll big. I don't think it's a coincidence that we now have three bigs that can roll, which Obstructed View, I believe stated above, that was the key and I agree. We did what we had to do last year. Pop as usual played to the strengths of the team. He played post ups and slowed the pace down because thats what you do when you lack a roll man that can create space and easy opportunities. We also lost cutters like CoJo and Marco. Like stated by Parker, they did drills for the passing. Two dribbles and pass and they'd do it over and over again. Boris was a big piece in this because of his exceptional passing skills but I think Kyle can at least pass at his level if he can't post down low. I seriously doubt the plan is to put Lee and Dedmon together on the bench and would even assert that that is a worse case scenario in the mind of Patfo. I think they want Kyle to be a Draymond/Boris type and also think they will give him plenty of time to prove he can or can't do it. He's really as much of a key to the return of the "beautiful game" as having Pau, Dedmon, and Lee to rolling. Cause he can be the third big and play the high post or play as a spacer if he can hit the three. I expect to see Pau and Tony running plenty of pick and rolls to start the season and I think the drills come back. Pop has the pieces now. He has Manu, Simmons, and to a lesser extent Murray that can be cutters like Cojo and Marco. He has a big on every string that can roll effectively to the basket. He has shooters like Kawhi, Green, Mills, Bertans, and Forbes. And I think Forbes makes the team. He is an asset best believe that. Now I wouldn't call him 3 and D yet but he gives effort like a taller Mills but a better finisher.

Now as mentioned above about switching on defense, with an effective roller you have a mismatch of a small down low, which will draw a double, and with a capable passer like Gasol you then get the ball moving. If not Pau can dominate. I mean we still have quite a few players on our team that played the game. It's like we sacrificed our identity when we signed Aldridge to save us from a rebuild. It's a bittersweet scenario. No more Beautiful Game but we don't have to rebuild. Last season was a transitional one much like this one but I think the goal is to bring back what we were.

As for chemistry, sure I agree, but that's apart of the Spurs culture to cultivate chemistry. They do the drills, they do the dinners, they suffer losses, and they keep at it. And they bring in guys with high character.

Maybe we never bring back the magic of the way we played but shoot, more ball movement, cutting, and setting picks would be an obvious improvement to a unexplosive offense. Danny and Patty having improved years is important too, but if not that's why you have Bertans and Forbes for insurance. More bullets in the barrel. Teams just let us pop last year cause mid range j's are one of the most ineffective shots in the game even if we are efficient at it. The pop took away the ball movement much like the post up. Kawhi and LMA's post ups took away the ball movement. And even when they did draw the double teams, they weren't great at passing out of them, especially LMA. Very few instances advantages were gained. This is why I think Pau will play a pivotal role next year and Aldridge and Leonard will play more as spacers. They should still have the same shots except now they will be getting them from ball movement as opposed to an iso. This really takes the energy out of an offense and makes it dependent. It's hard shooting cold and without touching the ball. As a ball player I feel more comfortable just touching the ball every time down even if it's not for a shot, just to have a feel. It's about rhythm. Iso ball doesn't have it. Things that make an offense explosive are ball movement, shooting, hustle plays, and dunks. This are also things that also take energy out of a team or break spirit. Look what we did to Miami in 14'. We annihilated them. We broke up the team. Lebron saw the Spurs and knew he couldn't beat them with his current team. Unfortunately injuries kept us from a repeat for the most part but the blueprint remains.

To retract a bit, I believe Leonard still has a chance to be good out of double teams and developed but as for Aldridge I think it's time to except that will never come. So post LMA until the doubles come and switch it up. As for Leonard, I think he will get more post ups than LMA because he is still developing and you have to see if he can become like Duncan out of the double.

Anyways with the roll men we will have a new dynamic on offense and I hope the drills come back cause we can still play at a slow pace and move the ball.

Edit: It all comes down to Aldridge if the Beautiful Game comes back. I just realized. We had two bigs that could pass at a high level on the floor at all times for the most part. I don't know if Aldridge could ever do that. Maybe with some practice perhaps. Maybe the thread, "Was Aldridge really worth it", has some merit in the grand scheme of things. Would you rather rebuild but keep the identity of the team or retool and change the way we play to a less successful version. Sure there are many ways to win, depending on how dominant you are at what you do but we weren't dominant enough with what we did last year and I doubt that changes enough this year if we play the same.

[ElNono]

This is just a different team. Also, let's not forget that "the beautiful game" was more of a counter-matchup against Miami for a specific series than a general tactic overall. We didn't play anything like that against the Mavs, for example, that same playoffs, or even against the Thunder. Overall, that was a great bench, that played to it's strengths that year, and that's just difficult to build up. I'll settle for some ball movement, finding out what our strengths are, and hopefully find effectiveness within that, even if it's nowhere near as eye-pleasing.

[dabom]

Ball stopped a lot with LMA and Kawhi. I expect it to get better as I don't think either are selfish players but Gasol will take time in his own right. Boris being gone from the second unit will also hurt.

If this core can stay together then there is a chance next year but i don't see that level of continuity this season.

Are you a dumbass? They aren't ball stoppers. As seen by previous years. The team relied on them because our roleplayers were shit, faggot. :lmao

Some of ya faggots need to understand context. :lol

[cutewizard]

In the development of complex systems, there is a concept called EMERGENCE.....

Something may yet emerge this season, let us observe and wait.......

[John B]

Bully the bigs, lot's of back cuts, and spreading the lane with 3 pointers, a lot of 3 pointers this year (without Bonner). 2nd unit will be small running. OKC went away with playing bigs and played hero ball instead. Spurs should play their style of basketball and force other teams to play big, instead of other way around.

[alpha_HaZE]

I wonder if we see elements of the triangle, I think Pau, LMA and KL would be a good fit.

[z0sa]

If it means Kawhi plays tired old shitbag minutes again, no thanks. If Pop keeps babying him he will never be the player we need him to be three to five years from now.

[SAGirl]

If it means Kawhi plays tired old shitbag minutes again, no thanks. If Pop keeps babying him he will never be the player we need him to be three to five years from now.
Pop will spare him. He won't statpad in garbage time bc that is the time Pop has to develop his young teammates. He always plays a lot of minutes when games are competitive.

[z0sa]

Pop will spare him. He won't statpad in garbage time bc that is the time Pop has to develop his young teammates. He always plays a lot of minutes when games are competitive.

Pop will spare him from what exactly? He is 25 years old. He had an MVP type season last year, and yet he is still below his ceiling. More playing time means more fatigue sure, but it also means accelerated learning that comes with playing against basketball's best.

Maybe we should find out just how much of the load he can carry, and for how long, before making an arbitrary decision is all I am saying. Pop played Tim Duncan in the higher 30s when he was winning MVPs, so it is not like it is unprecedented.

[SAGirl]

Pop will spare him from what exactly? He is 25 years old. He had an MVP type season last year, and yet he is still below his ceiling. More playing time means more fatigue sure, but it also means accelerated learning that comes with playing against the basketball's best.

Maybe we should find out just how much of the load he can carry, and for how long, before making an arbitrary decision is all I am saying. Pop played Tim Duncan about that many MPG when he was winning MVPs, so it is not like it is unprecedented.
Pop will spare him bc it's not wise to play him or any rotation player exposing them to injuries when its garbage time... and he also has young teammates that need that playing time to learn. That is the only time some of those guys play early in their careers while they learn. It ain't about Kawhi but the team. He will play all relevant competitive minutes. In fact statpadding in garbage time is actually not helping guys who are past that stage. It's like sending him back to the dleague or summer league at this point. . . bc guys of that level are basically the ones who play in garbage time.

[z0sa]

Oh, and let us not forget that Kawhi was being subbed out in the first fucking quarter game after game vs OKC. Pop has a track record of playing it safe with his players, but he hasnt had a young up and coming MVP level guy on the roster for more than a decade. If he doesnt switch gears soon, it will end up lowering Kawhi's potential in the long run. I dont want any serious injuries but i also think kawhi owes it not just to himself but to the spurs organization and the fans to reach his maximum potential.

[z0sa]

Pop will spare him bc it's not wise to play him or any rotation player exposing them to injuries when its garbage time... and he also has young teammates that need that playing time to learn. That is the only time some of those guys play early in their careers while they learn. It ain't about Kawhi but the team. He will play all relevant competitive minutes. In fact statpadding in garbage time is actually not helping guys who are past that stage. It's like sending him back to the dleague or summer league at this point. . . bc guys of that level are basically the ones who play in garbage time.

3 minutes left in the 1st quarter of a playoff game is not garbage time.

[YGWHI]

Pop played Tim Duncan in the higher 30s when he was winning MVPs, so it is not like it is unprecedented.

Pop's changed a lot since Tim's prime, he became more conservative over the years about playing time. Even when I'd love to see Pop playing Kawhi at least 36 mpg, that won't happen.

Sadly, it won't happen in playoffs either.

[skulls138]

Oh, and let us not forget that Kawhi was being subbed out in the first fucking quarter game after game vs OKC. Pop has a track record of playing it safe with his players, but he hasnt had a young up and coming MVP level guy on the roster for more than a decade. If he doesnt switch gears soon, it will end up lowering Kawhi's potential in the long run. I dont want any serious injuries but i also think kawhi owes it not just to himself but to the spurs organization and the fans to reach his maximum potential.Yeah Pop became too much of a chess player, not believing in his players as much. Its a fine line that he wasnt on.

And speaking about resting Kawhi, his game takes alot of energy to execute. Id like to see him make it look more effortless. More about exploiting weakness than overcoming great obstacles.

[Chinook]

I also think the "Beautiful Game" is mostly a made-up idea. In highlights, it looks like the Spurs were that dynamic. But the truth was that they only pulled that shit off in spurts. You can find video of most other good offenses that pull off similar things, especially if you only take their highlights.

[SAGirl]

I also think the "Beautiful Game" is mostly a made-up idea. In highlights, it looks like the Spurs were that dynamic. But the truth was that they only pulled that shit off in spurts. You can find video of most other good offenses that pull off similar things, especially if you only take their highlights.
I take the beautiful game as being the pinnacle of that particular version of the team, but as you and ElNono point out, other series even that same season were won differently and OT of Game 6 TD took over posting up.

I remember seeing an interview from Manu stating that they could put sequences like that together in the RS and if you look at highlights many teams can pass that well on occasion. He said, and I agree, that what made those games against the Heat special was that they were able to maintain that level of play execution for the entire games and that was truly unique. Manu himself said he didn't even know if they were ever going to be able to play at that level again. Famous words: The exact same version of the team the following season didn't reach that level ever, even when guys were healthy.

As ElNono noted in a way, a lot of it was also the result of very aggressive trapping to the ballhandlers by the Heat which left the roller open and forced rotations. When instead of trapping there are switches like I mentioned in my post, an exact replica of those videos won't come to fruition. That's why I mentioned the beautiful game as it was "termed" at that time did include exploitation of mismatches by Boris in the post and other actions. With so much switching, forwards have to post up nowadays, and the guards have to cut if they are overplayed or just drive or do something.

But it is true that it wasn't just defenses. The SL offense changed to feature the forwards, but part of the reason was just flat out decline from Tony and Tim. In reality the fit on offense always felt weird. I don't think they ever climaxed. They survived and won games on super strong defense but the offense was weird. Pop did what he could with that particular version of the starters IMO. The bench had other issues and they started with the loss of Tiago and Boris' reluctance or flat out denial to take a 3 pt shot. Kyle played so little when it mattered, and so many guys filled up minutes at the 3, while Pop scoured the roster and FA looking for someone to fit and it was always a weird fit with the SF in the bench, bc the problem didn't spring from the 3. Butler, Simmons, Kyle, Danny, Kawhi, Kevin Martin. These are all guys that played the 3 in the bench and they had the same problems as always. The problems started with the bigs, Manu's decline as a slasher/driver, and Patty becoming featured as a PG in the bench while taking so many jumpshots, thus being streaky.

Anyways, I think this version of the team next season should be better provided Tony and Manu stay healthy because the fit and roles that guys are playing are probably going to fit better, but as always chemistry is super important so guys also get a rhythm. It will still take time to develop the younger players into their roles and the veterans will need to fit in. The team will discover it's identity as the season goes on.

Finally, I wanted to reply to raybies: I had avoided mentioning Kyle at all lest ppl think my entire comment was about him when it wasn't but I couldn't let it slide to agree with raybies that I agree with his view that the Lee signing is just insurance. For Pop to have to play two paint clogging bigs together, it would be the worst possible outcome for the team IMO. The team will be much, much better if Anderson comes through for us for the season manning the 4 forward spot with Simmons or someone else at the 3. His adding a 3 pt shot provides spacing for the PnR the team wants to run with Dedmon, and he can do so many other things well, including passing and scoring on his own when needed. It's also probably not ideal if Dedmon doesn't pan out and we have to play Lee as a small ball 5. So in general, I can't see a scenario where having Lee as a regular rotation player is a good thing. I think he will have his moments in the season, but the best version of the team would rather feature other guys. I will truly be disappointed if Pop is putting Kyle on hold on Lee's account. In general, I also think the Spurs had trouble securing someone for the 4 spot precisely bc they intend to give Kyle a shot and that wasn't easy to accept for many veterans but Lee bought in. That is my view on the situation.

Also, although I am not a big fan, I think Simmons will get his chance. It's a make or break season for him and he has to show whether he is going to cut it or not. Based on your summer league reports from that guy in realgm, it sounds like Spurs are excited with him. Lee is here just in case Simmons or Bertans can't pull it together and Pop has to move Kyle back to the backup SF spot.

In general though, I am excited because I think this team has more versatility than last season's team and a lot of young player still developing, and to see younger guys develop is always entertaining to me. :flag:

[dabom]

Simmons is too small for the 3. People need to stop saying that.

[z0sa]

Simmons is too small for the 3. People need to stop saying that.

If he worked on his 3 point shot he could be an undersized but still viable 3. As a pure slasher finisher type, youre absolutely correct.

[Chinook]

Simmons for the three. It's his best position.

[YGWHI]

Yeah Pop became too much of a chess player, not believing in his players as much. Its a fine line that he wasnt on.

And speaking about resting Kawhi, his game takes alot of energy to execute. Id like to see him make it look more effortless. More about exploiting weakness than overcoming great obstacles.

Well, the things didn't look great with Pop doing it...

727406237998940160
And Game 2 was a close game...

If KD/LeBron/whoever keep playing 40 mpg and Kawhi just 34 like last playoffs, it doesn't matter what type of offense the Spurs will run, they won't match elite teams performances.

[dabom]

If he worked on his 3 point shot he could be an undersized but still viable 3. As a pure slasher finisher type, youre absolutely correct.

He wouldn't be viable though. He can't defend 2s as it is. Undersized and weak on defense is no bueno.

[dabom]

Simmons for the three. It's his best position.

I really don't know how you are a mod of the think tank when you say worse shit than SAGirl. :lol

[dabom]

I'm not even sure how anyone can say simmons best position is the 3 when he rarely even played there. :lol

[z0sa]

He wouldn't be viable though. He can't defend 2s as it is. Undersized and weak on defense is no bueno.

Just because he sucks on defense doesnt mean he cant play the 3. Lots of NBA players have made fortunes only playing one side of the ball. Simmons might be a bit short but he has ok handles (for what he is being asked to do) and he has no hesitation when he is near the rim. PATFO see something in him, and considering their legendary all time great track record when it comes to making talent appear from seemingly nowhere, gotta give him the benefit of the doubt.

Pop and co are really great at identifying guys who have a great work ethic and just need a solid support foundation to gain confidence and grow. I never saw Cory Joseph being a guy I would care about or miss, for example, but not only did he get paid, we have been clearly missing his quickness and tenacity on defense in multiple matchups since he left.

[dabom]

Just because he sucks on defense doesnt mean he cant play the 3. Lots of NBA players have made fortunes only playing one side of the ball. Simmons might be a bit short but he has ok handles (for what he is being asked to do) and he has no hesitation when he is near the rim. PATFO see something in him, and considering their legendary all time great track record when it comes to making talent appear from seemingly nowhere, gotta give him the benefit of the doubt. Pop and co are really great at identifying guys who have a great work ethic and just need a solid support foundation to gain confidence and grow.

Except he isnt exceptional on offense either. I like him as a 2. He just not gonna get the minutes with Manu and Green there. He will never play the 3 for the Spurs. Pop doesn't even play him there. I'm guessing he is a really big liability there.

[dabom]

I still want him on the roster. But switching him for Kyle might just be worse. :lol

[cutewizard]

I take the beautiful game as being the pinnacle of that particular version of the team, but as you and ElNono (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8054) point out, other series even that same season were won differently and OT of Game 6 TD took over posting up.

I remember seeing an interview from Manu stating that they could put sequences like that together in the RS and if you look at highlights many teams can pass that well on occasion. He said, and I agree, that what made those games against the Heat special was that they were able to maintain that level of play execution for the entire games and that was truly unique. Manu himself said he didn't even know if they were ever going to be able to play at that level again. Famous words: The exact same version of the team the following season didn't reach that level ever, even when guys were healthy.

As ElNono (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8054) noted in a way, a lot of it was also the result of very aggressive trapping to the ballhandlers by the Heat which left the roller open and forced rotations. When instead of trapping there are switches like I mentioned in my post, an exact replica of those videos won't come to fruition. That's why I mentioned the beautiful game as it was "termed" at that time did include exploitation of mismatches by Boris in the post and other actions. With so much switching, forwards have to post up nowadays, and the guards have to cut if they are overplayed or just drive or do something.

But it is true that it wasn't just defenses. The SL offense changed to feature the forwards, but part of the reason was just flat out decline from Tony and Tim. In reality the fit on offense always felt weird. I don't think they ever climaxed. They survived and won games on super strong defense but the offense was weird. Pop did what he could with that particular version of the starters IMO. The bench had other issues and they started with the loss of Tiago and Boris' reluctance or flat out denial to take a 3 pt shot. Kyle played so little when it mattered, and so many guys filled up minutes at the 3, while Pop scoured the roster and FA looking for someone to fit and it was always a weird fit with the SF in the bench, bc the problem didn't spring from the 3. Butler, Simmons, Kyle, Danny, Kawhi, Kevin Martin. These are all guys that played the 3 in the bench and they had the same problems as always. The problems started with the bigs, Manu's decline as a slasher/driver, and Patty becoming featured as a PG in the bench while taking so many jumpshots, thus being streaky.

Anyways, I think this version of the team next season should be better provided Tony and Manu stay healthy because the fit and roles that guys are playing are probably going to fit better, but as always chemistry is super important so guys also get a rhythm. It will still take time to develop the younger players into their roles and the veterans will need to fit in. The team will discover it's identity as the season goes on.

Finally, I wanted to reply to raybies (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=42684): I had avoided mentioning Kyle at all lest ppl think my entire comment was about him when it wasn't but I couldn't let it slide to agree with raybies that I agree with his view that the Lee signing is just insurance. For Pop to have to play two paint clogging bigs together, it would be the worst possible outcome for the team IMO. The team will be much, much better if Anderson comes through for us for the season manning the 4 forward spot with Simmons or someone else at the 3. His adding a 3 pt shot provides spacing for the PnR the team wants to run with Dedmon, and he can do so many other things well, including passing and scoring on his own when needed. It's also probably not ideal if Dedmon doesn't pan out and we have to play Lee as a small ball 5. So in general, I can't see a scenario where having Lee as a regular rotation player is a good thing. I think he will have his moments in the season, but the best version of the team would rather feature other guys. I will truly be disappointed if Pop is putting Kyle on hold on Lee's account. In general, I also think the Spurs had trouble securing someone for the 4 spot precisely bc they intend to give Kyle a shot and that wasn't easy to accept for many veterans but Lee bought in. That is my view on the situation.

Also, although I am not a big fan, I think Simmons will get his chance. It's a make or break season for him and he has to show whether he is going to cut it or not. Based on your summer league reports from that guy in realgm, it sounds like Spurs are excited with him. Lee is here just in case Simmons or Bertans can't pull it together and Pop has to move Kyle back to the backup SF spot.

In general though, I am excited because I think this team has more versatility than last season's team and a lot of young player still developing, and to see younger guys develop is always entertaining to me. :flag:


----------------------------------------------------------

Excellent post! as always

im curious, would you see a role for Bertans and Garino this year, that would be significant?

[z0sa]

I still want him on the roster. But switching him for Kyle might just be worse. :lol
It isnt his fault, but KA lost the little bit of confidence i had in him this last postseason. He was off the bench replacing Kawhi, again nkt his choice, but the massive dropoff enraged me.

It is not that he isnt a smart player or doesnt play to his strengths, I just feel trying to push him into a Diaw role implies he has the athleticism required for hitting the glass and producing consistent results, which he simply doesnt. Ppl might try to say maybe he could be like Horry with better handles instead, yet again, Horry was another natural athlete who could defend and rebound, besides nailing threes at a high clip.

I said last summer that if KA does not become a knock down three point shooter, he wont ever positively contribute to a contender. Relative with Simmons, he needs to work much, much harder on his shooting. I wouldnt use him to replace anyone in the "playoff" rotation, unless some odd matchup was clearly in his favor.

[dabom]

It isnt his fault, but KA lost the little bit of confidence i had in him this last postseason. He was off the bench replacing Kawhi, again nkt his choice, but the massive dropoff enraged me.

It is not that he isnt a smart player or doesnt play to his strengths, I just feel trying to push him into a Diaw role implies he has the athleticism required for hitting the glass and producing consistent results, which he simply doesnt. Ppl might try to say maybe he could be like Horry with better handles instead, yet again, Horry was another natural athlete who could defend and rebound, besides nailing threes at a high clip.

I said last summer that if KA does not become a knock down three point shooter, he wont ever positively contribute to a contender. Relative with Simmons, he needs to work much, much harder on his shooting. I wouldnt use him to replace anyone in the "playoff" rotation, unless some odd matchup was clearly in his favor.

We both agree Kyle sucks at the 3. I think we should look at these new guys to see what they can bring at the back up 3 before pidgin holding Simmons there.

[ElNono]

I said it earlier in the summer, both KA and Simms have a lot to prove this season. We can all talk about the greatness of PATFO identifying talent, but there's also countless cases where the Spurs figured player X or Y (ie: Neal or Hill) hit their ceilings and that's what you're going to get. And, be it because of an opportunity that opened up or simply because they felt they weren't worth what other team wanted to pay, it was time to move on. There's nothing wrong with that, after all, a lot of these guys are really projects to a large extent, even when they fill regular season minutes in a rotation.

Obviously, the Spurs would love to hit the jackpot every time (and so do we as fans), and I personally hope these two guys do make a tangible jump in quality, but it hasn't happened yet (IMO, we'll see what the new season brings), and the clock, like it or not, is ticking.

[z0sa]

We both agree Kyle sucks at the 3. I think we should look at these new guys to see what they can bring at the back up 3 before pidgin holding Simmons there.

Or KA. Neither player deserves anything at this point.

[dabom]

Or KA. Neither player deserves anything at this point.

I think the Spurs need to sell on Fathead too.

[z0sa]

I think the Spurs need to sell on Fathead too.

Pop is grooming him for a coaching position. If i were you or the other TP haters, Id accept the possibility of seeing Parker on the bench years after he retires.

[dabom]

going to sleep...

[SAGirl]

----------------------------------------------------------

Excellent post! as always

im curious, would you see a role for Bertans and Garino this year, that would be significant?
:tu I would like to see Bertans play this season. With him it's probably going to come down to familiarity with the system and defense. It's always a shock for rookies the superlative level of physicality, aggressiveness and skill they face so he may take time to adapt, but he's an experienced and mature rookie so I could see him have an effect his first season even if it's in a small role. (And Manu and others will be rested, he will have opportunities)

I haven't watched Garino except highlights but I'd like to see someone compete with Simms as a defender. I do like Forbes very much who is a true shooter and an aggressive scorer and I'd like to see him make the team but if Garino is looking like a better defender than JSimms that's going to be something Pop won't just gloss over. It's ultimately going to come down to Forbes and Garino and I have watched Forbes but not Garino so I won't Nostradamus this one but it will come down to how Jsimms himself is looking on defense and if Garino is better in training camp, I don't think Pop can just overlook it.

[SAGirl]

How ppl blame Kyle and are audacious enough to put the burden on him for an entire bench collapse is beyond me. It's ludicrous to place that burden on him when others were supposed to orchestrate the offense and Kyle had played the entire season in a very small role off what these veterans could allegedly do, not the reverse. It's not like he was getting shots and others playing off him. It was the entire opposite scenario, so if we are going to talk about him not cutting it or being marginal based on 5 minutes of play here or there in a series in which the entire bench was trash and he was guarding Durant a former league MVP and a guy he had guarded only a once through the season, then we might as well call it like it was and say they all were trash starting with Mills and D west who were supposed to have the scoring burden and couldn't hit an open jumpshot to save their lives or do anything defensively, box out or grab a board and then rehash how Manu looked ancient and beyond done as a player getting ate up by Dion Waiters and how Diaw was completely checked out. Then you might want to blame Pop's awful coaching, call him trash too and then get back to me. Bc if we are going to be unfair judging there is plenty of judgment to go around and it should be commensurate with a guy's role and responsibility.

[ElNono]

How ppl blame Kyle and are audacious enough to put the burden on him for an entire bench collapse is beyond me. It's ludicrous to place that burden on him when others were supposed to orchestrate the offense and Kyle had played the entire season in a very small role off what these veterans could allegedly do, not the reverse. It's not like he was getting shots and others playing off him. It was the entire opposite scenario, so if we are going to talk about him not cutting it or being marginal based on 5 minutes of play here or there in a series in which the entire bench was trash and he was guarding Durant a former league MVP and a guy he had guarded only a once through the season, then we might as well call it like it was and say they all were trash starting with Mills and D west who were supposed to have the scoring burden and couldn't hit an open jumpshot to save their lives or do anything defensively, box out or grab a board and then rehash how Manu looked ancient and beyond done as a player getting ate up by Dion Waiters and how Diaw was completely checked out. Then you might want to blame Pop's awful coaching, call him trash too and then get back to me. Bc if we are going to be unfair judging there is plenty of judgment to go around and it should be commensurate with a guy's role and responsibility.

I called out Pop, tbh... I don't blame Kyle, he wasn't ready, especially to play against KD... but lots of bad decisions from Pop then, I thought.

[SAGirl]

I called out Pop, tbh... I don't blame Kyle, he wasn't ready, especially to play against KD... but lots of bad decisions from Pop then, I thought.
And you had it right. It's more Zosa and others who are not being that honest. :tu

[dabom]

Fathead and Dworst joined the bench and then the bench sucked ass. :lol

[z0sa]

I just realized fathead isnt tp. I guess that means KA.

[cutewizard]

If Kyle will become an NBA-caliber point forward, THIS IS THE SEASON TO SHOW IT......

He better bring the goods, no player could be more scrutinized than him this season.....

For all the Spurs fans, for our dreams to come true, he must become that.....

[dabom]

I just realized fathead isnt tp. I guess that means KA.

I was like wtf are you tripping at the end... :lol

[z0sa]

I was like wtf are you tripping at the end... :lol

Sorry, the pet names/insults never really tickled my funny bone or hurt my feelings. For as much money as the average starter makes compared to what services he provides, it is all fair game as far as I am concerned.

[SAGirl]

If Kyle will become an NBA-caliber point forward, THIS IS THE SEASON TO SHOW IT......

He better bring the goods, no player could be more scrutinized than him this season.....

For all the Spurs fans, for our dreams to come true, he must become that.....
That is the truth, the team needs him to step up and that is more honest to admit. They might have even needed him to do more last season than he did, but Pop didn't expect to have to rely on him to that degree when he was for team's purposes a young newbie. And Pop has a lot of blame to take if Kyle wasn't ready to do more, bc Pop spent a lot of minutes on Kevin Martin to end the season, instead of pushing Kyle more, maybe even playing him in the stretch 4 role more (and it might have been the case if the team progressed past OKC and got to meet the Dubs that they needed him). But Pop had Diaw too, and didn't expect to need Kyle to that degree.

As a way of giving perspective here, the team won the last game of the season where Kyle had an efficient double double and was matched up with Dirk Nowitzki all game. Think about that. This was Kyle's line for that game:


SAN ANTONIO SPURS (67-15)


FIELD GOALSREBOUNDS



POS
MIN
FGM-A
3PM-A
FTM-A
+/-
OFF
DEF
TOT
AST
PF
ST
TO
BS
BA
PTS


K. Anderson (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kyle_anderson/index.html)
F
30:27
6-10
1-1
2-3
+17
1
9
10
4
2
5
0
0
0
15


He made clutch baskets in that game and the team won.

This was Kyle's line in game 6 of the OKC series: 2/4 shooting 2/2 FT, 1 board, 1 TO, 6 pts -7. played 14:38 minutes. That was probably the most he had played in a playoff game that wasn't in garbage time. Bear in mind that was a close out game on the road where the team was getting shellacked and trying to make a come back. To me there was a lot of symbolism in him staying on the court until the very end with Tim.

Should Pop have gone away from Diaw/West earlier in the series and used Kyle as a 4 more? Who knows? He did that in game 6 when the game was out of hand and made a short come back ironically. But if we are honest, Pop had not gotten Kyle ready for that. He hadn't really expected to have to need Kyle to that degree. I think that is why he didn't do that earlier in the series, and only went to that in a "oh what the heck? Let's throw the kitchen sink in" way. If he had expected everyone else to fail to the degree that they did, he would have prioritized Kyle's development over getting a late addition like K.Martin in, and playing Diaw and West together and he didn't do that. If Kyle wasn't ready to step in sooner it was due to him starting off the season without a role, having to earn it the hard way, while playing only a small role, filling up spots as others got rested or injured.

We have to see what Pop has in mind for him bc Pop really needs to get the most out of his youngest players at this point. He doesn't have the luxury of not developing guys.

[Brazil]

^ back from holidays and SA girl still doin slurp slurp

:lmao tbh...

[Sean Cagney]

Beautiful game took a few years to perfect, maybe in spurts but you won't see 2014 again any time soon tbh.

[Chinook]

^ back from holidays and SA girl still doin slurp slurp

:lmao tbh...

Do you think the Spurs are going to bring back Martin to fill that 15th spot, tbh?

[Brazil]

Do you think the Spurs are going to bring back Martin to fill that 15th spot, tbh?

nope we have the brilliant KA... slurp slurp

[dabom]

Spurs didn't even want Dworst at the minimum and people actually thought he could start for us. Think tank MOD. :lmao

[dabom]

Only a fraction of what this faggot says too. :lol

[TD 21]

No. It took a perfect storm, the likes of which is virtually impossible to replicate, to produce that. Not only a team chock full of high - genius level IQ players, who played with total selflessness, but it took them being at the exact moments of their respective careers, that they were.

They weren't playing that way if Duncan was in his prime or Leonard was where he is now. Like Ginobili said (paraphrasing), it's not that they were altruistic; they had to play that way to have a chance to contend because they didn't have that kind of player.

It really lasted from '12-'14, but since most now associate it almost exclusively with the '14 Finals, if you're just talking about that, it also probably took them losing the way they did in '13 (and, for the big three, all the bad breaks since the '07 championship), to produce that.

Also, since then, the entire league basically dissected everything they were doing and to at least some extent implemented it.


Simmons is a wing. Sure, he's naturally a shooting guard, but he should be able to mostly (obviously, he can't defend James, Anthony, etc.; by default, Anderson has to be the secondary defender for them now) get by defending small forwards. He might defend shooting guards more though, with Ginobili or Green defending the small forward. It just depends on the match-up.

[cutewizard]

That is the truth, the team needs him to step up and that is more honest to admit. They might have even needed him to do more last season than he did, but Pop didn't expect to have to rely on him to that degree when he was for team's purposes a young newbie. And Pop has a lot of blame to take if Kyle wasn't ready to do more, bc Pop spent a lot of minutes on Kevin Martin to end the season, instead of pushing Kyle more, maybe even playing him in the stretch 4 role more (and it might have been the case if the team progressed past OKC and got to meet the Dubs that they needed him). But Pop had Diaw too, and didn't expect to need Kyle to that degree.

As a way of giving perspective here, the team won the last game of the season where Kyle had an efficient double double and was matched up with Dirk Nowitzki all game. Think about that. This was Kyle's line for that game:


SAN ANTONIO SPURS (67-15)


FIELD GOALSREBOUNDS



POS
MIN
FGM-A
3PM-A
FTM-A
+/-
OFF
DEF
TOT
AST
PF
ST
TO
BS
BA
PTS


K. Anderson (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kyle_anderson/index.html)
F
30:27
6-10
1-1
2-3
+17
1
9
10
4
2
5
0
0
0
15


He made clutch baskets in that game and the team won.

This was Kyle's line in game 6 of the OKC series: 2/4 shooting 2/2 FT, 1 board, 1 TO, 6 pts -7. played 14:38 minutes. That was probably the most he had played in a playoff game that wasn't in garbage time. Bear in mind that was a close out game on the road where the team was getting shellacked and trying to make a come back. To me there was a lot of symbolism in him staying on the court until the very end with Tim.

Should Pop have gone away from Diaw/West earlier in the series and used Kyle as a 4 more? Who knows? He did that in game 6 when the game was out of hand and made a short come back ironically. But if we are honest, Pop had not gotten Kyle ready for that. He hadn't really expected to have to need Kyle to that degree. I think that is why he didn't do that earlier in the series, and only went to that in a "oh what the heck? Let's throw the kitchen sink in" way. If he had expected everyone else to fail to the degree that they did, he would have prioritized Kyle's development over getting a late addition like K.Martin in, and playing Diaw and West together and he didn't do that. If Kyle wasn't ready to step in sooner it was due to him starting off the season without a role, having to earn it the hard way, while playing only a small role, filling up spots as others got rested or injured.

We have to see what Pop has in mind for him bc Pop really needs to get the most out of his youngest players at this point. He doesn't have the luxury of not developing guys.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kudos man!

You make basketball theory more comprehensive as you explain it.

More power to yah!

[cutewizard]

Pau Gasol can usher in a different form of the Beautiful Game, imo............

[gambit1990]

Pau Gasol can usher in a different form of the Beautiful Game, imo............
cosigned. having him means we "need" parker starting even less.

[sasaint]

Pau Gasol can usher in a different form of the Beautiful Game, imo............

Spurs will not be resurrecting the beautiful game as long as LMA, the non-center iso-machine, is on the team. He is skilled in what he does, but he lacks court vision and has a pretty low BBIQ.

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_MLRbJ4M-I