Clinton tax plan is an investment killer....

[CosmicCowboy]

She is carrying class warfare to an extreme...especially on the capital gains tax...she would kill all incentive to save and invest by taking almost half the capital gains profit in taxes and limiting total deductible losses to 28% of income.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details-and-analysis-hillary-clinton-s-tax-proposals

[Pelicans78]

She is carrying class warfare to an extreme...especially on the capital gains tax...she would kill all incentive to save and invest by taking almost half the capital gains profit in taxes and limiting total deductible losses to 28% of income.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details-and-analysis-hillary-clinton-s-tax-proposals

That's sad and ridiculous on her part. But what would be worse is to have a GOP majority congress to vote in favor of it.

[Reck]

From January?

There has to be a revise version. Bernie pushed her to change more than a few of her stances.

[TDMVPDPOY]

fat tax
sugar tax

yet whatever taxes they make up or raise, aint doing shit to nfd or improving ppls lives

[hater]

Not the first time she killed something tbqh

[rmt]

Why does she want to put a limit on tax-deferred and tax-free retirement accounts (401k, IRAs, Roths)? Shouldn't she be encouraging everyone to save MORE for retirement? Terrible about the capital gains taxes - this might encourage more to invest in real estate and just sit on it (not realize gains and further drive up the price of housing). And lowering the death tax exemption to 3.5 million - that's nothing in regard to farms, businesses, etc.

The last thing we need is further lowering of the GDP (it was a pitiful 0.8 first quarter and 1.2 second quarter).

[Warlord23]

She is carrying class warfare to an extreme...especially on the capital gains tax...she would kill all incentive to save and invest by taking almost half the capital gains profit in taxes and limiting total deductible losses to 28% of income.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details-and-analysis-hillary-clinton-s-tax-proposals

Long-term capital gains will still be taxed at reasonable rates. It is only short-term gains that she proposes to tax at a higher rate. I'm sorta OK with this as it encourages a long-term investment horizon, but I would have probably gone with a 24% threshold for 3 years or more
The 4% surtax on incomes over $5M is not warranted IMO. The top marginal rate of income tax (39.6%) in the US is already very high.
The Buffet rule is reasonable (30% minimum tax rate on income >1M) is reasonable
Taxing carried interest at the same rate as ordinary income - absolutely fine with this
Estate tax - insignificant in the big picture as it only affects 0.5% of households and they have the means to avoid them in any case
High-frequency trading tax - absolutely fine. Read Michael Lewis' "Flash Boys" if you want to understand how HFT is an unwanted parasite on the financial sector

Overall a bit to the left of where the Dems would want to be, mainly due to the Bernie effect. Also the Dems likely want to cut corporate taxes, which should have bipartisan support.

As for the rest of the analysis, I am dubious of the dynamic scoring methodology employed by the Tax Foundation (and similar right-of-center think tanks) which applies a negative GDP growth adjustment for any tax increase. This is used to claim that tax cuts always boost GDP growth no matter what the current tax regime is, which isn't borne out by actual evidence.

[rmt]

Long-term capital gains will still be taxed at reasonable rates. It is only short-term gains that she proposes to tax at a higher rate. I'm sorta OK with this as it encourages a long-term investment horizon, but I would have probably gone with a 24% threshold for 3 years or more
The 4% surtax on incomes over $5M is not warranted IMO. The top marginal rate of income tax (39.6%) in the US is already very high.
The Buffet rule is reasonable (30% minimum tax rate on income >1M) is reasonable
Taxing carried interest at the same rate as ordinary income - absolutely fine with this
Estate tax - insignificant in the big picture as it only affects 0.5% of households and they have the means to avoid them in any case
High-frequency trading tax - absolutely fine. Read Michael Lewis' "Flash Boys" if you want to understand how HFT is an unwanted parasite on the financial sector

Overall a bit to the left of where the Dems would want to be, mainly due to the Bernie effect. Also the Dems likely want to cut corporate taxes, which should have bipartisan support.

As for the rest of the analysis, I am dubious of the dynamic scoring methodology employed by the Tax Foundation (and similar right-of-center think tanks) which applies a negative GDP growth adjustment for any tax increase. This is used to claim that tax cuts always boost GDP growth no matter what the current tax regime is, which isn't borne out by actual evidence.

I absolutely missed the high-frequency trading tax - that would affect me greatly as I day-trade (and so do a lot of small investors) - so day traders already hit with ordinary income rates get hit with high frequency trading tax too. Right now, long-term is considered > 1 year - she's discouraging investment - if so, time to put majority of assets in real estate and never sell.

[rmt]

I absolutely missed the high-frequency trading tax - that would affect me greatly as I day-trade (and so do a lot of small investors) - so day traders already hit with ordinary income rates get hit with high frequency trading tax too. Right now, long-term is considered > 1 year - she's discouraging investment - if so, time to put majority of assets in real estate and never sell.

I disagree about the estate tax - why such a low threshold that will affect small businesses and family farms - jobs probably gonna be affected to pay this tax. Sorry replied to wrong post.

[Warlord23]

I absolutely missed the high-frequency trading tax - that would affect me greatly as I day-trade (and so do a lot of small investors) - so day traders already hit with ordinary income rates get hit with high frequency trading tax too. Right now, long-term is considered > 1 year - she's discouraging investment - if so, time to put majority of assets in real estate and never sell.

Lol ... you aren't a high frequency trader by any stretch of imagination. That term refers to firms like Citadel which use algorithms to beat everyone else to the punch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-frequency_trading .... try and read the book "Flash Boys" which I talked about, it will open your eyes to how badly the HFT guys are screwing the rest of the market.

You won't be affected by that tax.

[ElNono]

Didn't Trump blast the "paper pushers" of hedge funds during the primaries (until now, at least, when he picked hedge fund managers for at least 3 of his "economic advisors" group)?

[CosmicCowboy]

Lol ... you aren't a high frequency trader by any stretch of imagination. That term refers to firms like Citadel which use algorithms to beat everyone else to the punch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-frequency_trading .... try and read the book "Flash Boys" which I talked about, it will open your eyes to how badly the HFT guys are screwing the rest of the market.

You won't be affected by that tax.

By Hillarys tax plan RMT's day trading gets hit the same as your high frequency trading. No difference.

[CosmicCowboy]

Didn't Trump blast the "paper pushers" of hedge funds during the primaries (until now, at least, when he picked hedge fund managers for at least 3 of his "economic advisors" group)?

They don't get to be Hedge Fund managers by being stupid and not understanding how the economy really works. I would much rather have a hedge fund manager in chargeof the economy than a "community organizer",

[ElNono]

Also, this is a discussion we had a long time ago, but the market right now looks a lot more like a casino than a vehicle for investment. It used to be a place to invest long-term, helping raise capital for companies to execute a long term plan.

Now it's all about betting on the next quarter earning calls, and a lot of CEOs and companies are largely only about that, at any cost.

I don't know taxes are a solution to that, but it certainly has completely corrupted what the market was a for a long time.

[Warlord23]

By Hillarys tax plan RMT's day trading gets hit the same as your high frequency trading. No difference.

Source?

Hint: there isn't one. HFT is a unique business model and very, very different from day trading.

Edit: this is not about capital gains tax - this is a financial transactions tax on HFT firms.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/22/hillary-clintons-financial-transaction-tax-why-it-may-not-work.html

[ElNono]

They don't get to be Hedge Fund managers by being stupid and not understanding how the economy really works. I would much rather have a hedge fund manager in chargeof the economy than a "community organizer",

That doesn't address the point brought up tho: He made it fairly clear that "paper pushers" don't really grow the economy, they just care about making money for themselves. There's been all sorts of talk about Shillary's wall street ties and influence peddling, whereas Trump was supposed to be the outsider that couldn't be bought, but most of those guys in his economic group also happen to be among his largest donors.

Also, knowing how to make money in the short term doesn't mean you know how to grow an economy. Those are very different goals, and sometimes diametrically opposed.

[CosmicCowboy]

Source?

Hint: there isn't one. HFT is a unique business model and very, very different from day trading.

Edit: this is not about capital gains tax - this is a financial transactions tax on HFT firms.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/22/hillary-clintons-financial-transaction-tax-why-it-may-not-work.html

It's still buying and selling in a short time frame and getting taxed at a high rate on the profit.

[Warlord23]

It's still buying and selling in a short time frame and getting taxed at a high rate on the profit.

Dude, are we talking about the same thing? I'm talking about Clinton's proposed (but not yet defined in detail) policy of levying a financial transactions tax on high-frequency trading (HFT) firms. HFT firms take advantage of their technology (lower network travel time, algorithms that "sense" the market etc) to place trades a few milliseconds ahead of the "normal" players (e.g. brokerage houses like TD Ameritrade) and skim margin out of every "normal" deal in the market. You and rmt will not be affected by this tax - hope you agree.

The other policy is capital gains tax on profit based on the holding duration (different tax rates on <1 year, 1 to 2 years, 2 to 3 years, etc). Individuals like rmt and you will be affected by this - but this is not what I was discussing in my last 2 posts.

[rmt]

Source?

Hint: there isn't one. HFT is a unique business model and very, very different from day trading.

Edit: this is not about capital gains tax - this is a financial transactions tax on HFT firms.
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/22/hillary-clintons-financial-transaction-tax-why-it-may-not-work.html

I don't see much in that article about high frequency trading. How would one distinguish the firms from me? Everyday, there is a first, second, third, etc trade that small time people like me might do - same as these firms - we might not do as many as them but it's still daily trading. And she proposed a tax on cancelled orders - so if I put a sell order on NUGT and I see that gold is going up in China overnight and I cancel, I'm gonna get taxed on that cancellation? What really gets me in the article is Bernie's $5 tax on every $1000 stock traded. That's crazy - that's not even on profit - that's on amount traded - both buying and selling and even if you lose on the stock - nuts.

[Warlord23]

I don't see much in that article about high frequency trading. How would one distinguish the firms from me? Everyday, there is a first, second, third, etc trade that small time people like me might do - same as these firms - we might not do as many as them but it's still daily trading. And she proposed a tax on cancelled orders - so if I put a sell order on NUGT and I see that gold is going up in China overnight and I cancel, I'm gonna get taxed on that cancellation? What really gets me in the article is Bernie's $5 tax on every $1000 stock traded. That's crazy - that's not even on profit - that's on amount traded - both buying and selling and even if you lose on the stock - nuts.

The first sentence in the article references Clinton's policy on an FTT on HFT firms. The rest of the article talks about Sanders and the Dem platform's vague "FTT on Wall Street" which is not the topic here. CC's link to the tax foundation site also specifically mentions an FTT on HFT.

I'm not up to writing an essay about HFT firms, their operating model and their side-effects, so I'd encourage you to read up on HFT yourself. Get a copy of Flash Boys or just start from wikipedia or reddit or whichever site you like.

Bottom-line however is that you are not an HFT. If Clinton is stupid enough to change her policy and call for an FTT on everyone, then you're in trouble. As of now, you're fine.

[RandomGuy]

She is carrying class warfare to an extreme...especially on the capital gains tax...she would kill all incentive to save and invest by taking almost half the capital gains profit in taxes and limiting total deductible losses to 28% of income.

http://taxfoundation.org/article/details-and-analysis-hillary-clinton-s-tax-proposals

There is already class warfare going on, and the rich have been winning, in case you haven't noticed. The honest among them admit as much.

That said the alternative is scary to contemplate, $10 trillion dollar "free ponies for everyone" fantasy:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2016/08/what-plan

(edit) Sorry, he modified the free pony plan. It only costs 2tr now.


The Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, a fiscally-hawkish think-tank, reckons this alone will cost about $2.5 trillion over a decade, before accounting for the growth it might generate. But if the increase in the standard deduction stays too, Mr Trump’s revised plan will still blow a hole in the federal budget.


He promised a moratorium on new rule-making by federal agencies. Yet regulations which most clearly hold back America’s economy, such as occupational licensing requirements, are typically written by states rather than the federal government. Mr Trump did not mention these. By contrast, many of the recent federal regulations congressional Republicans dislike, such as a rule requiring financial advisors to act in the best interests of their clients, are sensible. Others are required to make the Affordable Care Act’s insurance marketplace work. And energy regulations are only obviously bad if you are a climate-change sceptic.

[RandomGuy]

They don't get to be Hedge Fund managers by being stupid and not understanding how the economy really works. I would much rather have a hedge fund manager in chargeof the economy than a "community organizer",

Are you fucking kidding me?

The same hedge fund managers that snapped up all those mortgage backed securities like free heroin? THOSE people?

[ducks]

have you made more money and know more then THOSE people?

[rmt]

I wonder who I would choose to make money for me - successful businessmen/hedge fund managers or liberal economics professors who never made any money other than their salaries.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/08/09/ichan_extremely_important_for_country_to_see_trump _win_i_dont_see_why_any_worker_wouldnt_vote_trump. html

[boutons_deux]

Only about 15% of the TARP, etc money went into the Real Economy, the rest stayed within the BigFinance casino.

Investment? :lol BigCorp is sitting on $2T+ of cash, just can't seem to find any way to invest it.

BigCorp gets bigger return gambling in the BigFinance casino than it does investing in the Real Economy.

[SnakeBoy]

Also, this is a discussion we had a long time ago, but the market right now looks a lot more like a casino than a vehicle for investment. It used to be a place to invest long-term, helping raise capital for companies to execute a long term plan.

Now it's all about betting on the next quarter earning calls, and a lot of CEOs and companies are largely only about that, at any cost.

I don't know taxes are a solution to that, but it certainly has completely corrupted what the market was a for a long time.

It's worse than that

http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/markets/item/18520-central-banks-now-dominate-stock-market-study-finds

Personally I think we are in a worse bubble than we were in 2008 and that there is a reasonable chance that the next POTUS will face a more severe global deflationary crisis than the Great Recession. Of course if it does happen it will be blamed on the tax policy of the party in power.

[SnakeBoy]

“Rather than invest in failing infrastructure, central banks and governments are acting like hedge funds, betting on the stock market and [over-the-counter] OTC derivatives, using fiat credits that are borrowed or printed,” explained Stewart Thomson with the Graceland Updates newsletter for investors. “The bottom line: While global citizens are told to ‘grin and bear’ austerity, their leaders are having a ‘good ‘ole time’ spending trillions of dollars, at the stock market casino.”

[ElNono]

It's worse than that

http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/markets/item/18520-central-banks-now-dominate-stock-market-study-finds

Personally I think we are in a worse bubble than we were in 2008 and that there is a reasonable chance that the next POTUS will face a more severe global deflationary crisis than the Great Recession. Of course if it does happen it will be blamed on the tax policy of the party in power.


“Rather than invest in failing infrastructure, central banks and governments are acting like hedge funds, betting on the stock market and [over-the-counter] OTC derivatives, using fiat credits that are borrowed or printed,” explained Stewart Thomson with the Graceland Updates newsletter for investors. “The bottom line: While global citizens are told to ‘grin and bear’ austerity, their leaders are having a ‘good ‘ole time’ spending trillions of dollars, at the stock market casino.”

Lots of bad actors, tbh... but you're not going to fix this until you start cracking down on nations that wildly manipulate currency, like China. The dollar keeps getting stronger and stronger, because the US fiscal policy is actually golden compared to all these other countries. Sometimes people get caught up on the US debt, but the currency is really valued vis a vis other currencies.

[SnakeBoy]

Now it's all about betting on the next quarter earning calls, and a lot of CEOs and companies are largely only about that, at any cost.


Previous link was from 2014, here's one from 4 days ago...
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/central-banks-continue-to-rule-the-markets-cm661435

Nothing has changed. Point being it's not just CEO's betting on next quarter. Central banks around the globe are doing the same.

[ElNono]

Previous link was from 2014, here's one from 4 days ago...
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/central-banks-continue-to-rule-the-markets-cm661435

Nothing has changed. Point being it's not just CEO's betting on next quarter. Central banks around the globe are doing the same.

Central banks are trying to prop up their economies. Normally when you start printing and printing, you get inflation, not deflation. But the real problem here is that you have a giant like China that sucks up jobs from everywhere for pennies on the dollar. And they do that by manipulating their currency, dumping and tight control on their population. Once that happens, everybody else is trying to race to the bottom to remain somewhat competitive. At some point that's going to have to stop.