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View Full Version : The Lies and Folly March on (In Iraq)



Nbadan
10-05-2005, 12:27 PM
The British and Americans share similiar fates in Iraq...

Simon Jenkins
Guardian Weekly


Don't be fooled a second time. They told you Britain must invade Iraq because of its weapons of mass destruction. They were wrong. Now they say British troops must stay in Iraq because otherwise it will collapse into chaos.

This second lie is infecting everyone. It is spouted by Labour and Tory opponents of the war. Its axiom is that western soldiers are so competent that, wherever they go, only good can result. It is their duty not to leave Iraq until order is established, infrastructure rebuilt and democracy entrenched. Note the word "until". It hides a bloodstained half-century of western self-delusion and arrogance. The white man's burden is still alive and well in the skies over Baghdad (the streets are now too dangerous). Soldiers and civilians may die by the hundred. Money may be squandered by the million. But Tony Blair tells us that only western values enforced by the barrel of a gun can save the hapless Mussulman from his own worst enemy, himself.

The first lie at least had tactical logic. The Rumsfeld doctrine was to travel light, hit hard and get out. Neoconservatives might fantasise over Iraq as a democratic Garden of Eden. Harder noses were content to dump the place in Ahmad Chalabi's lap and let it go to hell. Had that happened, I suspect there would have been a bloody settling of scores but by now a tripartite republic hauling itself back to peace and reconstruction. Iraq is, after all, one of the richest nations on earth.

Instead decisions were taken to make Iraq an experiment in "ground zero" nation-building. All sensible advice was ignored on the assumption that whatever America and Britain did would seem better than Saddam, and better than doing nothing. Kipling's demons danced through Downing Street. Britain did not want to colonise Iraq. Yet somehow Blair's "fighting not for territory but for values" needed territory after all.

British policy demanded one thing, momentum towards local sovereignty and early withdrawal. There was no such momentum. An ever more confident insurrection was allowed first to impede and then dictate the timetable of withdrawal. Sunni terrorists now hold American and British policy in their grip. The result has been an inevitable civil collapse. We do not even know on which side are the Basra police.

Blair has done what no prime minister should do. He has put his soldiers at a foreign power's mercy. First that power was America. Now, according to the defence secretary, John Reid, it is a band of brave but desperate Iraqis entombed in Baghdad's Green Zone. He says he will stay until they ask him to go, when local troops are trained and infrastructure is restored. That means doomsday. Everyone knows it.

Iraqis of my acquaintance are numb at the violence unleashed by the West's failure to impose order. They are baffled at the ineptitude, the counter-productive cruelty of the arrests, bombings and suppressions. They are past caring whether it was better or worse under Saddam. They know only that more people a month are being killed than at any time since the massacres of the early 1990s. If death and destruction are any guide, Britain's pre-invasion policy of containment was far more successful than occupation.

The infrastructure is not being restored. Baghdad's water, electricity and sewers are in worse shape than a decade ago. Huge sums - such as the alleged $1bn for military supplies - are being stolen and stashed in Jordanian banks. The constitution is a dead letter except the clauses that are blatantly sharia. These are already being enforced de facto in Shia areas.

British soldiers are in a war over whose course, conduct and outcome their leaders have no control. Their government's exit strategy is no longer realistic, indeed is dishonest. Talk of reducing troop levels from 8,000 to 3,000 next year has been abandoned. Meanwhile daily groping for good news and the sickening litany of the bad is reminiscent of Vietnam. Signalling withdrawal would, it is said, give a green light to the gangs and private militias, to revenge attacks, ethnic cleansing and even partition. That threat is no longer meaningful since these are all happening anyway. The militias have reportedly infiltrated at least half the police and internal security forces in each area. Barely a tenth of the army is considered loyal to the central authority.

The 150,000 foreign troops on Iraqi soil are overwhelmingly committed to self-protection. They do not do law and order any more. Power is finding its locus, in the mafias, sheikhdoms, militias and warlords that flourish amid anarchy. Where there is no security, the gunman is always king.

The alleged reason for occupying Iraq was to build security and democracy. We have dismantled the first and failed to construct the second. Iraq is a fiasco without parallel in recent British policy. Now the British are told that we must "stay the course" or worse will befall. This is code for ministers refusing to admit a mistake.

America left Vietnam and Lebanon to their fate. They survived. We left Aden and other colonies. Some, such as Malaya and Cyprus, saw bloodshed and partition. We said rightly that this was their business. So, too, is Iraq for the Iraqis. We have made enough mess there already.

Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/guardianweekly/story/0,12674,1580913,00.html)

This whole waiting for Iraq security to stabilize and we broke it, so we bought it mentality is bogus. Yes, the Iraqis need our help rebuilding their civil infrastructure, especially our expertise in engineering and civil planning, and considering that we are most responsible for it's destruction, we should help, but what they don't need are is our interferring in Iraqi internal security affairs, especially when it comes to policing local Iraqis and the sheikdoms, war-lords, and various tribes that control the populous.

I've argued this before, and I'll say it again, we must leave Iraq to the Iraqis for better or worse.


:hat

mookie2001
10-05-2005, 12:29 PM
we must leave Iraq to the Iraqis for better or worse.
I agree

Vashner
10-05-2005, 01:32 PM
I am just glad that you 2 pussies are not in the military. You don't even deserve to look at uniform .. much less wear one.

Now go suck Saddams dick like you want to... fucking pussies.

mookie2001
10-05-2005, 01:38 PM
fuck you
I'm not in the military
either or you
I want the troops to come home
you want them to keep fighting for your president

Vashner
10-05-2005, 01:51 PM
Look Cindy.... for one I served with honors in the military and the Federal Courts.

That's fine to want the troops to come home blah blah..

They have a mission to do. .And quotes from a 3rd rate British tabliod is just crap.

If you lay crap on the forum expect it to land back in your face.

Blair and Bush were re-elected after the war was well underway. Let the soldiers do there job.

Take your british rag and get the fuck out of here.... go watch Kate moss coke videos.

mookie2001
10-05-2005, 01:57 PM
whats their job?
disarm Saddam
no
liberate Iraq
no
set up a foothold of democracy in the middle east
no
fight terrorism...
what is it going to be in a year?

SWC Bonfire
10-05-2005, 02:02 PM
what is it going to be in a year?

The Iraqi people will not be free as long as they do not have OnStar* in their Tahoes!

mookie2001
10-05-2005, 02:04 PM
seriously if we want to americanize them
we've wasted 200 billion+ already...
lets just give every family a Tahoe

SWC Bonfire
10-05-2005, 02:07 PM
seriously if we want to americanize them
we've wasted 200 billion+ already...
lets just give every family a Tahoe

They could afford the gas.

boutons
10-05-2005, 02:14 PM
The Sunnis, and the Sunni/jihadi insurgents, are the key to the whole mess.

I say let's see how the Constitutional election results go in 10 days. If Constitution is voted down (or so very nearly misses that the Sunnis feel under-represented), then the "war" is over, any chance of a Sunni/jihadi peaceful end to the insurgency is shot.

The Repug wetdream that the Iraqis could build a democracy will have crashed and burned. No need for USA to waste another life for Iraq.

As the Jenkins said (and pretty much echoed by Thomas Friedman), Iraq was, is, and always will be really a matter for Iraqis, not for the US. Can anybody argue with that?

Vashner
10-05-2005, 02:20 PM
Do you and dan share the same bed?

Just curious...