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YGWHI
08-31-2016, 10:17 AM
How many games will the Golden State Warriors win after adding Kevin Durant to the core of a team that went 73-9 last season?

Which teams might jump from the lottery to the playoffs, and who might they replace?

To help answer these questions, here's an early look at 2016-17 NBA projections using ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM).

RPM was developed by Jeremias Engelmann and Steve Ilardi to estimate a player's on-court impact on team performance, measured in net point differential per 100 offensive and defensive possessions. RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors. When used along with playing time projections, it's proved to be a very accurate predictive tool overall.

Last season, these projections correctly forecast that the Portland Trail Blazers would be more competitive than expected, the Boston Celtics would maintain their second-half success from the year before and the Milwaukee Bucks would fall out of the playoffs. (They also missed on other teams, including the Toronto Raptors emerging as a top threat to the Cleveland Cavaliers in the Eastern Conference and the Houston Rockets limping along near .500.) Two years ago, RPM foresaw the rise of the Golden State Warriors.

Like last season, I've put together projected playing time based on a formula that estimates games missed based on the number missed over the past three seasons (adjusted for any offseason injuries/suspensions) and my own guesses at how rotations will shake out.
Most veteran players are rated using the multiyear, predictive version of RPM, adjusted for the typical aging curve. Newcomers to the league and players who played too little for an RPM rating are rated using their projected offensive and defensive rating from my SCHOENE projection system, which incorporates translated performance in the NCAA and professional leagues besides the NBA.

Let's take a look at the results.

Western Conference

1.Golden State Warriors Projected wins: 66.8
Within the context of the conservative nature of win projections, which tend to be regressed heavily to the mean, a 67-win projection is remarkable. The Warriors' projection is two wins higher than the next best in the seven years I've gone back to do projections using this method: 64.9 for the 2010-11 Miami Heat, who actually won just 58 games because of the time it took their version of the Big Three to build chemistry on the court.

2.San Antonio Spurs Projected wins: 54.5
It's a huge step downward to second place in the West. With Tim Duncan's retirement and the aging of other core players, the Spurs will be hard-pressed to stay with Golden State in the regular season as they did last season. But RPM still has them comfortably second in the West.

3.Utah Jazz Projected wins: 47.6
This might seem like a crazy leap for a team that didn't make the playoffs last year, but remember: The Jazz actually had the fifth-best point differential in the West (plus-1.8 PPG). Ordinarily, that would translate into 46 wins, and that was despite injuries (including Dante Exum missing the entire season) and before Utah loaded up with veterans this offseason. The Jazz should be considered the favorites to win the Northwest Division.

4.L.A. Clippers Projected wins: 46.3
Given the Clippers won 53 games last year without Blake Griffin for much of the season, a seven-win drop would be a surprise. But RPM sees several key players on the wrong side of the aging curve.

5.Houston Rockets Projected wins: 45.8
RPM projects the Rockets to be a top-five offense next year, but they'll still struggle to reach 45 wins if their defense is worse than an optimistic projection of 16th in the league.

6.Oklahoma City Thunder Projected wins: 45.6
Even without Durant, RPM forecasts the Thunder in the mix for home-court advantage in the West thanks to star point guard Russell Westbrook and a deep cast of young role players.

7.Portland Trail Blazers Projected wins: 44.5
After reaching the second round of the playoffs and adding Festus Ezeli and Evan Turner this offseason, the Blazers hope to take the next step in their development. RPM sees them as about the same team as 2015-16, when they won 44 games but finished fifth in a weaker West.

8.Denver Nuggets Projected wins: 40.4
Quietly, the Nuggets have assembled an intriguing group of young talent (led by RPM favorite Nikola Jokic, projected for plus-5.0 points per 100 possessions) with a few veterans in tow. Even with Danilo Gallinari projected for just 50 games, internal development could be enough to push Denver into surprising playoff contention.

9.Memphis Grizzlies Projected wins: 39.4
Yes, the Grizzlies strengthened their starting lineup by signing Chandler Parsons, but their bench is incredibly thin and several starters (including Parsons) are major injury risks. Gulp.

10.Sacramento Kings Projected wins: 37.7
The Kings have one of the biggest discrepancies of any team between their projection in ESPN's summer forecast (30 wins, 13th in the West) and by RPM, which sees Sacramento deep in average talent around DeMarcus Cousins.

11.Minnesota Timberwolves Projected wins: 37.1
Remember, RPM projections don't factor in coaching, and the arrival of Tom Thibodeau makes the Timberwolves overwhelmingly likely to outperform their projected ranking of 27th in defensive rating.

12.New Orleans Pelicans Projected wins: 37.0
New Orleans is deeper after shopping for midtier free agents this summer, but RPM projects just three players on the roster to be better than league average: Anthony Davis, Jrue Holiday and newcomer Solomon Hill.

13.Dallas Mavericks Projected wins: 34.3
Might this be the year that coach Rick Carlisle, veteran big man Dirk Nowitzki and a cast of newcomers can't get the Mavericks to the playoffs? RPM says yes, since swapping Parsons (plus-1.3) for Harrison Barnes (minus-0.7) grades as a major downgrade.

14.Phoenix Suns Projected wins: 29.2
The Suns figure to be a bit more competitive with the return of RPM favorite Eric Bledsoe (plus-2.2) but are still too young to compete in the West.

15.L.A. Lakers Projected wins: 24.3
Despite their offseason additions of No. 2 pick Brandon Ingram and veterans Luol Deng and Timofey Mozgov, RPM has the Lakers with the league's fewest projected wins.

Eastern Conference
1.Cleveland Cavaliers Projected wins: 52.1
While the Cavaliers are still solidly tops in the East, their projection is down from last year's 57 wins because RPM takes a dim view of Kyrie Irving's defense and considers Matthew Dellavedova (plus-1.2 projection) a considerable loss as Irving's backup. Note that this projection assumes J.R. Smith ultimately re-signs in Cleveland.

2.Boston Celtics Projected wins: 49.8
Last year, RPM nailed the Celtics' 48-win finish, though the Raptors jumped ahead of Boston to take second in the East. Now, RPM sees the Celtics taking a modest step forward with the addition of Al Horford.

3.Toronto Raptors Projected wins: 48.8
After getting career years from guards DeMar DeRozan and Kyle Lowry, the Raptors are likely to regress to the pack this year, but fans can take solace in Toronto having outperformed its RPM projection each of the past three seasons.

4.Detroit Pistons Projected wins: 47.5
While most of the East's middle class took a step backward this offseason, the Pistons should improve by virtue of upgrading at backup point guard and center, and RPM sees them as the third team in a tier with Boston and Toronto.

5.Washington Wizards Projected wins: 41.4
There's a big gap between the top four in the East and a pack of teams projected fifth through about 11th. The Wizards lead that group after going 18-13 after last year's All-Star break.

6.Charlotte Hornets Projected wins: 41.0
Though the return of Michael Kidd-Gilchrist (plus-2.0) should be a boost, RPM doesn't like the Hornets' new backup backcourt of Ramon Sessions (minus-2.4) and Marco Belinelli (minus-3.7).

7.Milwaukee Bucks Projected wins: 40.9
The Bucks have oscillated between wildly under- and overperforming projections. If that trend holds, this should be the year for exceeding expectations, and RPM views both Dellavedova and Mirza Teletovic (minus-0.6) as upgrades.

8.Indiana Pacers Projected wins: 38.9
By virtue of having one of the East's top players in Paul George and a promising youngster in Myles Turner, the Pacers are getting contender buzz in the East. RPM is not so optimistic, viewing the swap of George Hill (plus-0.8) for Jeff Teague (minus-0.6) as a downgrade.

9.Atlanta Hawks Projected wins: 38.6
RPM has had a tough time forecasting the Hawks, pegging Atlanta for near-.500 records each of the past two seasons, when the Hawks have actually finished second and fourth in the East. This time, Atlanta may have to beat its projection to make the playoffs.

10.Miami Heat Projected wins: 38.3
Even with Chris Bosh in the lineup, the Heat may have a tough time making the playoffs after losing Luol Deng, Joe Johnson and Dwyane Wade. Without Bosh, Miami's projection drops to 35.2 wins and 12th in the East.

11.Chicago Bulls Projected wins:37.8
RPM doesn't view adding Wade (minus-1.3) and Rajon Rondo (minus-1.4) as upgrades for Chicago, and that's before even taking the fit issues they create into account.

12.Orlando Magic Projected wins: 36.2
The Magic spent big on free agents D.J. Augustin (minus-1.6) and Jeff Green (minus-2.1), neither of whom RPM sees helping Orlando much on the court this season.

13.New York Knicks Projected wins: 34.7
The Knicks would certainly be disappointed if they improved just three wins after spending freely this summer, but RPM rates Derrick Rose (minus-2.3) as a replacement-level contributor at this point and is skeptical of New York's weak bench.

14.Brooklyn Nets Projected wins: 28.8
A full season from second-year wing Rondae Hollis-Jefferson (plus-1.2), along with improved play at point guard with Jeremy Lin (minus-0.3), should make the Nets a bit more competitive this season.

15.Philadelphia 76ers Projected wins: 24.5
Even with conservative projections for rookies Ben Simmons (minus-1.9) and Joel Embiid (minus-1.4), the Sixers figure to take a massive step forward this season despite still being projected for the East's worst record.

http://insider.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/17375776/projected-records-win-totals-standings-every-nba-team-2016-17-season

Chinook
08-31-2016, 10:19 AM
I thought we already established Pelton's model is shit.

YGWHI
08-31-2016, 10:24 AM
I can't see Utah with the 3rd seed in the West, but most projections are about how core-players aging, injury risk, deep/thin bench...

YGWHI
08-31-2016, 10:26 AM
I thought we already established Pelton's model is shit.

Well, "we" established a lot of things that never happened.

Like talking about "Pop wants Kyle to play at PF this new season" and then the Spurs signed Lee...I'm pretty sure you/"we" remember that.

Spur-Addict
08-31-2016, 10:30 AM
I stopped reading when I saw Utah at 3

dabom
08-31-2016, 10:41 AM
Well, "we" established a lot of things that never happened.

Like talking about "Pop wants Kyle to play at PF this new season" and then the Spurs signed Lee...I'm pretty sure you/"we" remember that.

:lol

J_Paco
08-31-2016, 11:03 AM
Well, "we" established a lot of things that never happened.

Like talking about "Pop wants Kyle to play at PF this new season" and then the Spurs signed Lee...I'm pretty sure you/"we" remember that.

The signing of Lee doesn't mean that he's automatically the backup 4 or that Kyle will be the backup 3, again. If anything Pop will figure out a way to give both of them some time, but I would still expect Kyle to play the bulk of his minutes at power forward. His game screams "mismatch" at the other post position qnd if he consistently hits the outside jumper then he can literally become Diaw 2.5 (with less of a post game).

:lol

Wow, look who it is to piggyback one of his circle jerk members' posts and bring no substance to the conversation.


Anyway, I highly doubt that only 2 teams will win 50+ games in the western conference or that Utah will go from non-playoff team to third best in conference. I still would take the Clippers, Grizzlies and (maybe) Rockets to end up ahead of them.

YGWHI
08-31-2016, 11:17 AM
The signing of Lee doesn't mean that he's automatically the backup 4 or that Kyle will be the backup 3, again. If anything Pop will figure out a way to give both of them some time, but I would still expect Kyle to play the bulk of his minutes at power forward. His game screams "mismatch" at the other post position qnd if he consistently hits the outside jumper then he can literally become Diaw 2.5 (with less of a post game).

I'd like if Kyle doesn't play at 4 many minutes against taller PFs, we know how bad it worked -to play undersized guys- against OKC.

Kyle's a talented passer with good to great court vision, but doesn't have Bobo's post game and I doubt he can create many mismatches like Boris did against small-ball teams.

J_Paco
08-31-2016, 11:40 AM
It was mentioned as an example...Like his "Kawhi's defense is overrated".

He made a lot of statements that are incorrect, which isn't bad at all, because all people make mistakes.

But if he says "we already established something" when "we" didn't...It's likely that other people -me included- will remember his mistakes and post about them.

However, I'd like if Kyle doesn't play at 4 many minutes against taller PFs, we know how bad it worked -to play undersized guys- against OKC.

Kyle's a talented passer with good to great court vision, but doesn't have Bobo's post game and I doubt he can create many mismatches like Boris did against small-ball teams.

I agree about his lack of size and post game, but I really don't see a successful career for him (with or without the Spurs) at the small forward position. He is just too slow, lacks any lateral quickness and will continue to be at a big athletic disadvantage on the perimeter against NBA caliber talent.

I think you can hide or mitigate many of his weaknesses while giving him a similar role to Boris at the power forward spot. Plus, his ball handling, playmaking and court vision are things very few PF can prepare for or have seen. I think Pop needs to play him at the 4 while tailoring more plays to Kyle's offensive strengths. Which mean no more watching Manu do everything while camped in the corner.

Kyle needs to be the "point forward" of the bench for him to really improve. So he can become the that of NBA he needs to be, IMO, otherwise he'll be a wash out that was "too unathletic" for the NBA.

dabom
08-31-2016, 11:55 AM
It was mentioned as an example...Like his "Kawhi's defense is overrated".

He made a lot of statements that are incorrect, which isn't bad at all, because all people make mistakes.

But if he says "we already established something" when "we" didn't...It's likely that other people -me included- will remember his mistakes and post about them.

However, I'd like if Kyle doesn't play at 4 many minutes against taller PFs, we know how bad it worked -to play undersized guys- against OKC.

Kyle's a talented passer with good to great court vision, but doesn't have Bobo's post game and I doubt he can create many mismatches like Boris did against small-ball teams.

I almost forgot about that gem from Chinook "think-tank" :lol

dabom
08-31-2016, 11:58 AM
The signing of Lee doesn't mean that he's automatically the backup 4 or that Kyle will be the backup 3, again. If anything Pop will figure out a way to give both of them some time, but I would still expect Kyle to play the bulk of his minutes at power forward. His game screams "mismatch" at the other post position qnd if he consistently hits the outside jumper then he can literally become Diaw 2.5 (with less of a post game).


Wow, look who it is to piggyback one of his circle jerk members' posts and bring no substance to the conversation.


Anyway, I highly doubt that only 2 teams will win 50+ games in the western conference or that Utah will go from non-playoff team to third best in conference. I still would take the Clippers, Grizzlies and (maybe) Rockets to end up ahead of them.

I lol at anything that is funny. This imaginary "group". :lol

buttsR4rebounding
08-31-2016, 01:09 PM
This guy is a tool. The Warriors won't win 68 games this year. 63-65 IMO. And the Spurs will win at least 58 games. While the defense definitely takes a hit the offense should be much better.

Hoops Czar
08-31-2016, 01:53 PM
I thought we already established Pelton's model is shit.

Any model that doesn't project the Spurs as favorites is apparently shit.

dabom
08-31-2016, 01:54 PM
Any model that doesn't project the Spurs as favorites is apparently shit.

54 wins? :lol

Hoops Czar
08-31-2016, 02:02 PM
54 wins? :lol

Zero penetrating guards, a bunch of unknowns (Bertans, Dedmon, LJC, Forbes, KA, Simmons) and their best interior defender at age 39 retires.... 54 might be a smidge on the low side but Pelton doesn't have a whole lot to work with when trying to project a Spurs win total.

Chinook
08-31-2016, 02:04 PM
Any model that doesn't project the Spurs as favorites is apparently shit.

Nah, I think the model hits the Spurs correctly. But people were bragging about it being "conservative" about the Warriors last year, when it was off by like 20 percent. That's not conservative; that's shit.

dabom
08-31-2016, 02:12 PM
Zero penetrating guards, a bunch of unknowns (Bertans, Dedmon, LJC, Forbes, KA, Simmons) and their best interior defender at age 39 retires.... 54 might be a smidge on the low side but Pelton doesn't have a whole lot to work with when trying to project a Spurs win total.

Smidge on the low side. :lol

Nice try...

dabom
08-31-2016, 02:13 PM
Nah, I think the model hits the Spurs correctly. But people were bragging about it being "conservative" about the Warriors last year, when it was off by like 20 percent. That's not conservative; that's shit.

"ThinkTank" :lmao

Solid D
08-31-2016, 02:14 PM
Unless something happens to Westbrook, the Thunder should be a 50-win team. The Mavs should be at least 10 wins better than the 34 Pelton guesstimates they will have. Even though their bench is spotty with question marks, they have an excellent starting five.

Maddog
08-31-2016, 02:19 PM
If you forget the numbers- and look at rankings it projects the Spurs as having the second best record.
That seems the same as last year.

szkorhetz
08-31-2016, 02:28 PM
Nah, I think the model hits the Spurs correctly. But people were bragging about it being "conservative" about the Warriors last year, when it was off by like 20 percent. That's not conservative; that's shit.
Virtually noone could see the Warriors winning 73 games, and they basically won all of their toss-up games, so realistically, they shouldn't have won more than 66-68 games.

YGWHI
08-31-2016, 02:31 PM
I agree about his lack of size and post game, but I really don't see a successful career for him (with or without the Spurs) at the small forward position. He is just too slow, lacks any lateral quickness and will continue to be at a big athletic disadvantage on the perimeter against NBA caliber talent.

I think you can hide or mitigate many of his weaknesses while giving him a similar role to Boris at the power forward spot. Plus, his ball handling, playmaking and court vision are things very few PF can prepare for or have seen. I think Pop needs to play him at the 4 while tailoring more plays to Kyle's offensive strengths. Which mean no more watching Manu do everything while camped in the corner.

Kyle needs to be the "point forward" of the bench for him to really improve. So he can become the that of NBA he needs to be, IMO, otherwise he'll be a wash out that was "too unathletic" for the NBA.

I know how versatile Kyle is, but he can still be our "point forward" of the second unit playing most minutes at SF.

Spurs' starters won't ever match opposite SL players' minutes, that means if they play Kyle at the 4 many minutes, he'll have to defend bigger PF's like Griffin, Zbo, Favors, Montiejunas and others in the West, also, we can thank God that LMA is a Spur/AD plays more minutes at C.

The best Diaw wasn't elite at defense, but he seemed better suited to plays against those guys than Kyle is now.

Chinook
08-31-2016, 02:37 PM
Virtually noone could see the Warriors winning 73 games, and they basically won all of their toss-up games, so realistically, they shouldn't have won more than 66-68 games.

That's fine. But you don't get to brag about your model because you estimated what everyone else estimated (and which was wrong).

MaNu4Tres
08-31-2016, 02:38 PM
My Western Conference predictions

1. Warriors
2. Spurs
3. Clippers
4. Blazers
5. Oklahoma City
6. Grizzlies
7. Utah
8. Close race for the 8th -- Mavericks/ Pelicans/ Twolves/ Rockets

sasaint
08-31-2016, 02:48 PM
Unless something happens to Westbrook, the Thunder should be a 50-win team. The Mavs should be at least 10 wins better than the 34 Pelton guesstimates they will have. Even though their bench is spotty with question marks, they have an excellent starting five.

I admit that I am curious about OKC this season. I believe Donovan is a very good coach. Now that the Thunder are undeniably "Westbrook's team," both Russell and the team may actually improve. If Donovan can reign in his chucking tendencies, he has the makings of a fine, vocal team leader. On the other hand, he might just seize the opportunity to become an even more selfish chucker. Be interesting to see how he leads a bunch of very good role players.

I am also a big fan of Rick Carlisle; I share your belief that the Mavs may over-perform the expectations of many pundits.

The team in the West that I find most intriguing is the Rockets. Losing Dwight and getting D'Antoni makes them nearly impossible to handicap. Their style and character will be entirely different.

In the East, replacing Horford with Dwight is also intriguing for Bud and the Hawks. Having a real center in the starting lineup instead of two power forwards will definitely change things - but for the better? I don't know. I don't much care for Dwight, but I wish Bud the best. So, I hope the Hawks surprise some folks.

dabom
08-31-2016, 03:01 PM
My Western Conference predictions

1. Warriors
2. Spurs
3. Clippers
4. Blazers
5. Oklahoma City
6. Grizzlies
7. Utah
8. Close race for the 8th -- Mavericks/ Pelicans/ Twolves/ Rockets

But what do you think about 54 wins?

dabom
08-31-2016, 03:02 PM
Is this scrub Chinook the most incorrect bold on this forum? Not joking. :lol

DJR210
08-31-2016, 04:21 PM
Stopped reading at "How"

Gibbz
08-31-2016, 05:10 PM
Terrible model outside of Western Conf top two.

TD 21
08-31-2016, 05:38 PM
Lowe has been on the Jazz' bandwagon for a while (probably because he's tight with Snyder and maybe Lindsey, too) and because virtually all of the snobby stat geeks worship him, they're now all pretending to be on it too because they think it makes them seem more informed, intelligent and progressive.

The irony is, they're actually one of the most antiquated teams in the league. They play at a glacial pace, start two centers, are a poor passing team and advanced stats don't reflect well upon two (Johnson and Diaw) of their three veteran additions.

In a best case scenario, they could be the fourth best team in the West, but I don't buy that they're the clear best of the rest, let alone ahead of the Clippers.

Kawhitstorm
08-31-2016, 06:11 PM
Lowe has been on the Jazz' bandwagon for a while (probably because he's tight with Snyder and maybe Lindsey, too) and because virtually all of the snobby stat geeks worship him, they're now all pretending to be on it too because they think it makes them seem more informed, intelligent and progressive.

The irony is, they're actually one of the most antiquated teams in the league. They play at a glacial pace, start two centers, are a poor passing team and advanced stats don't reflect well upon two (Johnson and Diaw) of their three veteran additions.

In a best case scenario, they could be the fourth best team in the West, but I don't buy that they're the clear best of the rest, let alone ahead of the Clippers.

They are an inferior version of the Lionel Hollins Grizzles.

TheGreatYacht
08-31-2016, 07:03 PM
Is this scrub Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) the most incorrect bold on this forum? Not joking. :lol ClipperNation