Do you expect any offensive or defensive structure or scheme changes this year?

[apalisoc_9]

Last year the Spurs made significant changes offensively playing less off Parker and Relying on offensive Talent Kawhi and Aldridge to put up points. Frankly, this was somewhat of a surprise even for the biggest Kawhi advocate myself..Some Numbers giving us an Idea of how the Spurs Played their offense.


Pace: 93.8 (24th of 30)
Three Point Attempt Rate: .22 (25th out of 30)
Mid Range Shots: .137 (2nd out of 30)
Jumpshots from 3-9 ft: .173 (8th out of 30)
Layups: 1018 (12-30)
OffRtg: 113 (4th out of 30)

As evidence with the numbers, the Spurs played a slow paced game that relied on offensive talent from Kawhi and LA..Both love the mid-range and 3-9 push shots or hooks ( essentially, post ups). We took less three pointers, and that is largely a function of playing less Pick and Roll offense and More Pick and Pops and Isolation. This year, We are expecting three competent and willing Roll guys in Gasol, Lee, and dedmon..They should be able to open up the corner three pointers more. In comparison, We only had Duncan as a Roll Guy last year and his role was heavily reduced offensively and teams would just let him score and catch the roll pass.

The team didnt attack the basket that much. The layup stat is a bit misleading because a large part of those layups are post ups and high Post Isolation. I wasnt able to find a stat, but my hunch tells me we are bottom 10 in attacks to the basket coming from the perimeter. Having said all that, We still finished with a ridiculous offrtg thanks to our more patient offense.

I dont expect a whole lot of changes next year, but Gasol should give us a higher ceiling offensively. I think We will be able to run more Pick and Roll this year and a result have more three point attempts, but this will largely depend on what Role Parker will have next year and If Kawhi is Willing to mix up his offensive touches to more Pick and Roll and less Isos..

Here are some Numbers Last year that would give us the spurs general defensive scheme.

Opponent three point Attempts: .244 (29th out of 30)
Midrange Shots: .119 (2nd out of 30)
Shots from 3-9: .173 (5th out of 30)
opponent Layups: 844 (29th of 30) I already miss Timmy Duncan :cry
Dftrtg: 99 (1st out of 30)

The Spurs prevented threes and forced the midrange and push and hook shots. Part of the reason why San Antonio was so Good last year defensively is because they were able to force the drive, force the opponent perimeter to our Bigs (TD most of the time) and still prevent a layup. That is absolutely remarkable. Will Pau Gasol offer the same kind of defensive contribution? Against Elite teams the spurs switched a lot.

What Numbers from the Given, do you guys expect changes?

[alpha_HaZE]

Spurs last year had a historically good defensive season, it would be silly to expect we can improve. Especially with Tim retiring. Pau should be able to replace Manu as the 3rd highest usage guy. He had similar usage % last year as Manu, with higher assists rate and fewer turnovers. Him and LMA would be hard to defend. So I expect our offense to be better and our defense to take a step back.

Regarding pace, it would be interesting to see if Pau starts the game. There are rumors that say he wont. If that's the case, I think our starters will play at a similar pace like last year with Dedmon protecting the rim. Advanced stats and his elite athleticism, gives me some confidence that he can do that. With Pau & Manu leading the second unit, I think our bench guys will play at a higher pace. As others have already observed; Patty, Manu, and Pau will be our new foreign legion add KL & LMA or KL & Lee or KA & LMA to that group and you have 5 guys that can push the tempo, share the ball, hopefully knock the 3, and ultimately out-score their opponents.

[SAGirl]

I do expect some changes bc it's possible Kawhi is still developing as the main player. He's not a player in his prime yet and while one would not expect big leaps bc he's a very dominant player already, subtle things like playmaking he can improve still. Ultimately it depends if Pop sees him as a more ball dominant player or not but Pop was giving him the ball more and more.

Also, it's going to be interesting to see which way they go with Tony. Sometimes I feel like we have taken him for granted even at this current level. The Tony we have is not the worst possible Tony. Two seasons ago he was really terrible and a lot of other guys had down seasons then too and injuries! This past season Danny had an off year shooting and father time eventually claimed Tim.

In the beginning of the season everything looks peachy but someone will underperform and someone will get hurt. It happens every season, sometimes multiple guys have down years. Hopefully it's not any of the main guys but it will be someone, maybe two. I expect Danny to bounce back, but it could be others, specially the older dudes: What if it's Gasol? What about Tony or Manu? A candidate for the injured list: Lee.

To answer your question: I think the SL will still be defensive minded and they will look better if Danny is hitting his shots. Gasol will help them offensively a lot but they still need LMA and Kawhi to be themselves and get theirs as well as anchor them defensively. The bench is a question mark bc they need the young guys to grow up but they are hungry and will likely run away with any chance they get. Simms and Mills are in contract seasons. Opportunities like this are what young players kill themselves in the gym for. I expect them to have good seasons.

The bench will shoot a lot more 3s with the addition of Bertans and Anderson hitting the 3 nowadays. They will be more aggressive in transition and overall play at a faster pace than they did last season and when Simmons plays they will look to push the pace often to take advantage of his athleticism in transition. It's by far his best skill. They need Dedmon to pan out and will probably try to fit in Lee somewhere but he's one of those candidates to be injured a lot and not fit in anywhere when guys are healthy and the younger hungry dudes are going to kick his ass if he has nags or is not in good shape.

[kobyz]

They gonna change the formation from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3...

[TD 21]

Offensively, I'm sure they'll be some tweaks (maybe Leonard runs more pick-and-roll while Parker spots up more), but nothing major. Despite all the changes, the actual rotation will likely function similarly.

What Gasol averaged with the Bulls, is irrelevant because his minutes and usage will likely both be closer to Duncan's in recent seasons and it's difficult to feature three players who overlap some.

Without getting into what position certain front court bench players will primarily play and who with, Dedmon and Lee will provide roll where West and Diaw provided pop.

Other than that, they still lack a go to creator on the perimeter and high percentage, volume three-point shooting (none added to the rotation, one less on the roster). Expect an offense that's again efficient, but not explosive.

[skulls138]

More passing, less iso. DG needs to feel like he is more of a part of the action. KL more three pt shots and postups, less faceup. LMA more driving and kicking instead outside shooting unless the shot clock is winding down. I can only talk about the guys who were there last season.

[spurs10]

Last year the Spurs made significant changes offensively playing less off Parker and Relying on offensive Talent Kawhi and Aldridge to put up points. Frankly, this was somewhat of a surprise even for the biggest Kawhi advocate myself..Some Numbers giving us an Idea of how the Spurs Played their offense.


Pace: 93.8 (24th of 30)
Three Point Attempt Rate: .22 (25th out of 30)
Mid Range Shots: .137 (2nd out of 30)
Jumpshots from 3-9 ft: .173 (8th out of 30)
Layups: 1018 (12-30)
OffRtg: 113 (4th out of 30)

As evidence with the numbers, the Spurs played a slow paced game that relied on offensive talent from Kawhi and LA..Both love the mid-range and 3-9 push shots or hooks ( essentially, post ups). We took less three pointers, and that is largely a function of playing less Pick and Roll offense and More Pick and Pops and Isolation. This year, We are expecting three competent and willing Roll guys in Gasol, Lee, and dedmon..They should be able to open up the corner three pointers more. In comparison, We only had Duncan as a Roll Guy last year and his role was heavily reduced offensively and teams would just let him score and catch the roll pass.

The team didnt attack the basket that much. The layup stat is a bit misleading because a large part of those layups are post ups and high Post Isolation. I wasnt able to find a stat, but my hunch tells me we are bottom 10 in attacks to the basket coming from the perimeter. Having said all that, We still finished with a ridiculous offrtg thanks to our more patient offense.

I dont expect a whole lot of changes next year, but Gasol should give us a higher ceiling offensively. I think We will be able to run more Pick and Roll this year and a result have more three point attempts, but this will largely depend on what Role Parker will have next year and If Kawhi is Willing to mix up his offensive touches to more Pick and Roll and less Isos..

Here are some Numbers Last year that would give us the spurs general defensive scheme.

Opponent three point Attempts: .244 (29th out of 30)
Midrange Shots: .119 (2nd out of 30)
Shots from 3-9: .173 (5th out of 30)
opponent Layups: 844 (29th of 30) I already miss Timmy Duncan :cry
Dftrtg: 99 (1st out of 30)

The Spurs prevented threes and forced the midrange and push and hook shots. Part of the reason why San Antonio was so Good last year defensively is because they were able to force the drive, force the opponent perimeter to our Bigs (TD most of the time) and still prevent a layup. That is absolutely remarkable. Will Pau Gasol offer the same kind of defensive contribution? Against Elite teams the spurs switched a lot.

What Numbers from the Given, do you guys expect changes? Good info in this post. Have to agree we'll probably step up a bit offensively and step back bit on defense. I too like the idea of more pick n roll and less iso- leaving out Green of the mix.

[AFMadison]

As long as we play team ball and not hero ball like last year.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

They gonna change the formation from 4-4-2 to 4-3-3...

what sport is that

[Spurtacular]

Last year the Spurs made significant changes offensively playing less off Parker and Relying on offensive Talent Kawhi and Aldridge to put up points.

Says the guy that was making threads about how LaBeta needed to defer to Parker :lmao

[ElNono]

Expecting Manu to have a bigger role, tbh...

[apalisoc_9]

Expecting Manu to have a bigger role, tbh...
Actually, he might be forced to have a bigger role if Porky gets injured and Anderson flops. :lol

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I certainly hope there will be some changes to the offense, but I'm not sure how to change it for the starters given that Aldridge is such a ball-stopper.

Lack of ball movement was awful last year - the bench looked a lot better than the starters for the first two months of the season because they still played the Beautiful Game while the starters bogged down in Aldridge-ball.

As for Kawhi, he seems to thrive in a high ball movement or chaotic environment. We need to get the ball moving again so that he can cause havoc with his improvisational offence.

[tbdog]

http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/243276/How-Kawhi-Leonard-Set-The-System-Player-Label-On-Fire

[K...]

http://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/243276/How-Kawhi-Leonard-Set-The-System-Player-Label-On-Fire

Good article

[SAGirl]

Just saw this:

http://youtube.com/watch?time_continue=56&v=b75H-4kILuw
Possible Garino makes the team to spell Manu on defense, seriously. Also it's possible Simmons is a better option than Manu at this point bc if he's going to give you defense like that at least he will also be scoring or drawing fouls. I hope Pop looks at that intently and starts to move on.

[apalisoc_9]

Simmins over manu..are you high? You keep on talking about development as if these other younger guys are the same caliber of talent as kawhi :lol

[SAGirl]

Simmins over manu..are you high? You keep on talking about development as if these other younger guys are the same caliber of talent as kawhi :lol
Did you even watch Manu in the above video? Nope then, whatever. Manu was terrible both ends against OKC. Couldn't score one end. Dion Waiters looked like a superstar on the other. Only two ways to go: sub Garino hope defense improves, if he even makes the team. Sub Simmons, defense will be shit but he will score or draw fouls (if he's not TO, but so is Manu prone to TO anyways). I laid it out for you.

But you only care about Kawhi not the team.... fine for you.

[ElNono]

Did you even watch Manu in the above video? Nope then, whatever. Manu was terrible both ends against OKC. Couldn't score one end. Dion Waiters looked like a superstar on the other. Only two ways to go: sub Garino hope defense improves, if he even makes the team. Sub Simmons, defense will be shit but he will score or draw fouls (if he's not TO, but so is Manu prone to TO anyways). I laid it out for you.

But you only care about Kawhi not the team.... fine for you.

tbf, half of the points on that video were not against Manu, and at least 1 was on a fastbreak and another two on penetration (where the bigs are supposed to cover).

That said, Manu and our bench overall was poor that series, on both ends. Notice also how one of Westbrook or Durant is out there with their bench. I'm still skeptical of what our bench defense is going to look like. I don't know what Dedmon can do, but the rest don't strike me as above average defenders.

[skulls138]

OKC caught everybody by surprise. They were physically superior in every way and their coach taught them how to not choke. Manu is by far the best leader on the floor and is still a great passer, way better than Simmons. Cant just throw legends to the side like that.

[SAGirl]

tbf, half of the points on that video were not against Manu, and at least 1 was on a fastbreak and another two on penetration (where the bigs are supposed to cover).

That said, Manu and our bench overall was poor that series, on both ends. Notice also how one of Westbrook or Durant is out there with their bench. I'm still skeptical of what our bench defense is going to look like. I don't know what Dedmon can do, but the rest don't strike me as above average defenders.
I don't know who or how the other guys are going to step up but I hope Pop starts looking. They already went down with an underperforming bench last season. It's time for Pop to start looking around. I don't want next season to go like 2015: Pop went down overplaying a horrendous Tony while young Cojo watched helplessly from the bench.

Pop will die with the veterans but it's about time that he's looking around. It's impossible to win each season but he's starting to get eliminated prematurely from the postseason bc he's not even using other guys when the veterans are failing. Heck, Cojo bailed out Lowry and Derozan some games in the 2016 postseason and he couldn't get off the bench for Pop in 2015. I think he's misused Kyle and wasted the team's time with Kmart only bc he "fit" better with Manu bc he played off the ball. Might as well gone with JSimms TBH and give a chance to Kyle b4 the ship sailed. I just hope he's learned his lesson. It's not Manu that worries me it's Pop and maybe Manu is the one who is going to have to open Pop's eyes.

Spurs need to look at others.

The first comment I made in Sir Apo9's thread above, was precisely about injuries and guys underperforming. Manu was remarkable getting back to form after his injury but he was bad that series and he's probably done as the main bench guy. He's frankly probably being taken for granted by the old man and it's sickening.

Either way, I don't care who it is. I don't think Simmons is going to be a star but dude can do some things and others weren't doing squat. I hope Pop is not afraid to give options to others. The time will come when there will be better options than Manu and that will be the time when he will probably say ok, it's time to retire. I think it's this coming season. Maybe no one else can step up, but I hope for the Spurs sake that someone does and I hope Pop looked at that and saw what I saw. Manu needs to infuse our bench guys (specially the youngest ones) with his competitive fire and desire but he can't be the one.

[SAGirl]

OKC caught everybody by surprise. They were physically superior in every way and their coach taught them how to not choke. Manu is by far the best leader on the floor and is still a great passer, way better than Simmons. Cant just throw legends to the side like that.
I hope Pop knows when it's time. Otherwise it will be an early exit again. Heck we may again not get to GSW, that's how alarming it's getting.

[YGWHI]

Notice also how one of Westbrook or Durant is out there with their bench.
Well, most NBA coaches with two main scorers on their teams, sit just one of them and let the other on the floor with the bench. Like Cavs with LBJ and Irving, OKC with Westbrook and Durant, Warriors with Curry and Thompson...

But Pop is an innovative coach, we had the pleasure of watching how he sat Kawhi and LMA at the same time many minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarters in crucial playoffs games.

Just amazing :tu

[dabom]

Well, most NBA coaches with two main scorers on their teams, sit just one of them and let the other on the floor with the bench. Like Cavs with LBJ and Irving, OKC with Westbrook and Durant, Warriors with Curry and Thompson...

But Pop is an innovative coach, we had the pleasure of watching how he sat Kawhi and LMA at the same time in the first minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarters in crucial playoffs games.

Just amazing :tu

Is Kawhi to Fathead one of the biggest drops in talent in the NBA?..

[jehawk81]

But you only care about Kawhi not the team.... fine for you.


:wow:wow:wow
Dayum SAGirl, why no lube? RIP Applesauce's ass

[YGWHI]

Is Kawhi to Fathead one of the biggest drops in talent in the NBA?..
Was. In last playoffs.

But Kyle will improve...he's versatile and a talented passer. I'd like to see Pop giving him the opportunity to create and play more point-forward

[MultiTroll]

I'm looking forward to seeing how much Boban clogs the middle and alters some shots.

:pop: :donkey

[skulls138]

It should be interesting with all the new guys but honestly, it mostly falls on the laps of LMA and KL...and Pop. They need to make the rest of the team feel as if theres a chance, like TD brought the best out of Malik Rose and Avery Johnson. Also Im hoping KA will be a very pleasant surprise because I think he has the personality and skill (except outside shot) to make the parts become a unit. Hes got an upbeat vibe but wonder if that makes him too nice or something thatll bring the team together.

[dabom]

Was. In last playoffs.

But Kyle will improve...he's versatile and a talented passer. I'd like to see Pop giving him the opportunity to create and play more point-forward

But that's not how it works. He has been put in situations like that and he hasn't excelled. He doesn't always stay in a corner.

He hasn't shown any flash to actually GIVE him more responsibility. :lol

[YGWHI]

I'm looking forward to seeing how much Boban clogs the middle and alters some shots.

:pop: :donkey


Well, the real Pop was more frustrating.

"I want that people take Boban seriously, he's not some sort of and odd thing, he's not a circus freak...That's why I will play him in the most important game of the playoffs and I will make him...O wait."

[SAGirl]

Well, most NBA coaches with two main scorers on their teams, sit just one of them and let the other on the floor with the bench. Like Cavs with LBJ and Irving, OKC with Westbrook and Durant, Warriors with Curry and Thompson...

But Pop is an innovative coach, we had the pleasure of watching how he sat Kawhi and LMA at the same time many minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarters in crucial playoffs games.

Just amazing :tu
The problem for the two best scorers is that they were also the two best defenders and rebounders. Pop needed them for defense and had to buy them an ounce of rest so they had legs to close out, which at times LMA didn't have missing jumpshots late in games. They needed help that's the truth.

[YGWHI]

He hasn't shown any flash to actually GIVE him more responsibility. :lol

Not all players improve at the same time/develop at the same way...We'll see.

[dabom]

Not all players improve at the same time/develop at the same way...We'll see.

Respect.

[SAGirl]

:wow:wow:wow
Dayum SAGirl, why no lube? RIP Applesauce's ass
:lol
You know if I really, really wanted it would be so easy to troll these dudes. They already hate me and jump on my every post bc I like some guys they don't.
lol
I could start hyping up you know Livio Jean Charles or something. lol (really won't.. but you get the point... they are such easy targets)
Not all Kawhi fans are like that but Apa and Daboom are the whiniest trolls.

[YGWHI]

The problem for the two best scorers is that they were also the two best defenders and rebounders. Pop needed them for defense and had to buy them an ounce of rest so they had legs to close out, which at times LMA didn't have missing jumpshots late in games. They needed help that's the truth.
Resting players all regular season...to rest them in playoffs too.

The good thing is that Pop was resting 24-years-old-Kawhi in last playoffs for this new season. I wonder how many minutes he will play...29 mpg?

Joke aside, you're right about the burded but the issue was the bad timing.

Why sitting Kawhi and LMA, both players at the same time in game 4? Why sitting Tim, Kawhi, Danny, our three best defenders at the same time in game 2?

[YGWHI]

I think We will be able to run more Pick and Roll this year and a result have more three point attempts, but this will largely depend on what Role Parker will have next year and If Kawhi is Willing to mix up his offensive touches to more Pick and Roll and less Isos...

Well, that's not Kawhi's decision, it's on Pop.

Is Pop ready to take the ball out of Parker hands? Can Pop spot-up more Parker and still make him look good/useful?

It's likely Parker will run a lot of pick and rolls with Pau in the regular season, then those P&Rs will become ineffective against elite teams in playoffs...we have already seen that movie.

[ElNono]

I don't know who or how the other guys are going to step up but I hope Pop starts looking. They already went down with an underperforming bench last season. It's time for Pop to start looking around. I don't want next season to go like 2015: Pop went down overplaying a horrendous Tony while young Cojo watched helplessly from the bench.

Pop will die with the veterans but it's about time that he's looking around. It's impossible to win each season but he's starting to get eliminated prematurely from the postseason bc he's not even using other guys when the veterans are failing. Heck, Cojo bailed out Lowry and Derozan some games in the 2016 postseason and he couldn't get off the bench for Pop in 2015. I think he's misused Kyle and wasted the team's time with Kmart only bc he "fit" better with Manu bc he played off the ball. Might as well gone with JSimms TBH and give a chance to Kyle b4 the ship sailed. I just hope he's learned his lesson. It's not Manu that worries me it's Pop and maybe Manu is the one who is going to have to open Pop's eyes.

Spurs need to look at others.

Not sure what you mean by that. The Raptors weren't winning a championship featuring Cojo over Lowry or Derozan, nor the Spurs were going to win a championship by giving Kyle a larger role, who IMO wasn't ready for that last season, over, say, Bobo.

The reality is that since we got Aldrige the Spurs moved into being a top-heavy team. That's why Pop's adjustment, IMO, should've been to play more top-heavy and rely less on what we all knew was a relatively weak bench. I don't really see that changing this season. The way this roster is structured, barring any significant surprises, means Kawhi and LMA have to play a lot more minutes (in the playoffs, I should note, the RS is a different story). One of the two should always be out there with the bench too.

But this is Pop we're talking about, he'll do his thing, and we all hope he figures it out.

[SAGirl]

It should be interesting with all the new guys but honestly, it mostly falls on the laps of LMA and KL...and Pop. They need to make the rest of the team feel as if theres a chance, like TD brought the best out of Malik Rose and Avery Johnson. Also Im hoping KA will be a very pleasant surprise because I think he has the personality and skill (except outside shot) to make the parts become a unit. Hes got an upbeat vibe but wonder if that makes him too nice or something thatll bring the team together.

WOOT!!! That is the spirit! :flag::cheer

I can get behind this. I am going to share one thing with you that should get us excited for the season:

A comment from someone:
763075850061230081

I like that. We can't be fricking scared of no one. Though I think the first person Kyle is going to have to lose his fear of is Pop. He was too afraid to get out of Pop's script and get benched and the fear was real. He got benched for entire games for getting out of the script a single instance. That was fine early in the season, but needs to lose that. Manu can teach that for sure. It's fine to have the very young guys in a short leash early but at this point, if you want those same guys to help you win games and you are the coach, that can't fly. I also think that in order for Kyle to be a true point forward Pop has to trust him making choices and Pop hasn't been comfortable trusting youngsters. TBH Murray has a long road ahead or he may simply be soooo wild that even if he wants to play under control he can't. I don't know if that is a good or bad thing but it will be a headache for Pop.

I think even LMA early was afraid to get out of the script and was out there playing tentative half the season. It took Tim getting hurt for Pop to push the heck out of LMA, and he needs to push others too. I look forward to Kawhi's development as a leader. Maybe he's the guy that has to get on things like this, specially with young players, but that remains to be seen.

As for his personality, I frankly don't think Spurs could have found a more spursy young guy if they tried and he's a natural leader. Both understands the game and has the patience to deal with different personalities. He needs to progress in his own game to help the team, but frankly Pop has to loosen up the leash too.

[SAGirl]

Not sure what you mean by that. The Raptors weren't winning a championship featuring Cojo over Lowry or Derozan, nor the Spurs were going to win a championship by giving Kyle a larger role, who IMO wasn't ready for that last season, over, say, Bobo.

The reality is that since we got Aldrige the Spurs moved into being a top-heavy team. That's why Pop's adjustment, IMO, should've been to play more top-heavy and rely less on what we all knew was a relatively weak bench. I don't really see that changing this season. The way this roster is structured, barring any significant surprises, means Kawhi and LMA have to play a lot more minutes (in the playoffs, I should note, the RS is a different story). One of the two should always be out there with the bench too.

But this is Pop we're talking about, he'll do his thing, and we all hope he figures it out.
What I mean by that is that Lowry was shooting so bad that CoJo had to play more minutes and take some of their shots. It didn't mean that Lowry or Derozan didn't play, or that the team could spare them, but CoJo did play more and got more shots and they really don't advance as far as they got without him coming through. He really did bail them out in a few games, scoring baskets that kept them in games. Of course they were not going to go as far as they got either unless the other two woke up, but if the Raptors coach doesn't look at other ppl they would have been eliminated earlier in the series.

All this happened b4 my time, but aren't there so many threads out there about how when Tony was a nonfactor shooting in some series as a young player, and Pop was more willing to go to others? Steve Kerr among them, Speedy Claxton? It seems to me he's obviously now relying on his veterans and doesn't hold them to the same standard. If they are not coming through, try something else, someone else for once. Well he did that when it was too late, doesn't it seem like that often. I have read multiple threads in these very same forums about others complaining about Pop not making adjustments and trying other ppl.

[SAGirl]

Resting players all regular season...to rest them in playoffs too.

The good thing is that Pop was resting 24-years-old-Kawhi in last playoffs for this new season. I wonder how many minutes he will play...29 mpg?

Joke aside, you're right about the burded but the issue was the bad timing.

Why sitting Kawhi and LMA, both players at the same time in game 4? Why sitting Tim, Kawhi, Danny, our three best defenders at the same time in game 2?
good question and I have told myself that the only answer is that Pop simply could not adjust to not having Tim. He was probably more injured than we will ever know, and he really could not score, Pop sat him I think bc of Tim's injury and his difficulty scoring and from there his whole rotation went kaput.

Definitely can't defend Pop on that one. He really didn't balance things. In fact some fans in these very forums were saying he needed to balance the bigs and mix them up. They think it was LMA not wanting to play center, but it's all on Pop. Nothing happens in terms of lineups and minutes without him being the one making those choices. Maybe it's inexcusable.

[ElNono]

What I mean by that is that Lowry was shooting so bad that CoJo had to play more minutes and take some of their shots. It didn't mean that Lowry or Derozan didn't play, or that the team could spare them, but CoJo did play more and got more shots and they really don't advance as far as they got without him coming through. He really did bail them out in a few games, scoring baskets that kept them in games. Of course they were not going to go as far as they got either unless the other two woke up, but if the Raptors coach doesn't look at other ppl they would have been eliminated earlier in the series.

All this happened b4 my time, but aren't there so many threads out there about how when Tony was a nonfactor shooting in some series as a young player, and Pop was more willing to go to others? Steve Kerr among them, Speedy Claxton? It seems to me he's obviously now relying on his veterans and doesn't hold them to the same standard. If they are not coming through, try something else, someone else for once. Well he did that when it was too late, doesn't it seem like that often. I have read multiple threads in these very same forums about others complaining about Pop not making adjustments and trying other ppl.

Because they're not clearly a better option. Kyle wasn't last season, IMO.

Off the top of my head, playing Bonner over Tiago in the Memphis series back in 2011 was certainly a mistake like you mention. But Tiago was already a somewhat seasoned player.

[SAGirl]

Because they're not clearly a better option. Kyle wasn't last season, IMO.

Off the top of my head, playing Bonner over Tiago in the Memphis series back in 2011 was certainly a mistake like you mention. But Tiago was already a somewhat seasoned player.
We will just disagree. In game 6 Kyle did score when they went to him. All I am saying is, since no one had it the heck going on in the bench they should have tried him. Pop agreed with you: wasn't ready. The outcome was a loss 4 times, and the outcome would not have changed if they played 3 more games. I think it didn't occur to you that the only guy who could have had physical advantages in the bench was Kyle if he was mismatched with a perimeter player that wasn't Durant. I will give you this one though: Pop didn't expect to have to go to him and they weren't going to give him a leash. I also think as others said, they were not going to risk a potential championship or place that burden on his shoulders and they didn't. For better or worse they went swinging with the veterans (looks like it was for worse). Kyle was great against the Mavericks when he had freedom to take shots and make decisions. Much better than Mills was at doing the same:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec6bbPiPKAc

I know you watched that game and it happened to end the season. Sure he could make shots, he could set up others. I think the Durant matchup was super tough, and he didn't master it midseason the only time they met, but they could have screened or done things to get him a shot. They didn't. They lost: the end.

[SAGirl]

By the way this was Simmons against OkC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtT_KD1GGpo
A lot of this came in garbage time yes.
Also Pop by bringing in Kevin Martin sabotaged both Simmons and Kyle. We will never know, but Simmons ended the season in a much better note than K Martin did and Martin got a shot in game 6 (and was awful).

[ElNono]

We will just disagree. In game 6 Kyle did score when they went to him. All I am saying is, since no one had it the heck going on in the bench they should have tried him. Pop agreed with you: wasn't ready. The outcome was a loss 4 times, and the outcome would not have changed if they played 3 more games. I think it didn't occur to you that the only guy who could have had physical advantages in the bench was Kyle if he was mismatched with a perimeter player that wasn't Durant. I will give you this one though: Pop didn't expect to have to go to him and they weren't going to give him a leash. I also think as others said, they were not going to risk a potential championship or place that burden on his shoulders and they didn't. For better or worse they went swinging with the veterans (looks like it was for worse). Kyle was great against the Mavericks when he had freedom to take shots and make decisions. Much better than Mills was at doing the same:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec6bbPiPKAc

I know you watched that game and it happened to end the season. Sure he could make shots, he could set up others. I think the Durant matchup was super tough, and he didn't master it midseason the only time they met, but they could have screened or done things to get him a shot. They didn't. They lost: the end.

If last season depended on Kyle Anderson, we had no shot at the ring, period. Losing in the 1st, 2nd round, doesn't matter.

I like to view it differently: last season depended on much more seasoned and talented players, like Bobo, West, Danny, Patty, Manu being at least average, and one or two above average. They weren't, so we didn't win. It happens.

You're also giving a lot of weight to regular season games. They matter up to an extent. If a player regularly stands out, Pop will notice and they'll earn a more prominent role. Happened with Kawhi, Manu, etc. Just didn't happen with Simms or Kyle last season. That's what I mean when I say "he wasn't ready". He just didn't show night in and night out that he earned that larger role. Hopefully this season he does.

[SAGirl]

If last season depended on Kyle Anderson, we had no shot at the ring, period. Losing in the 1st, 2nd round, doesn't matter.

I like to view it differently: last season depended on much more seasoned and talented players, like Bobo, West, Danny, Patty, Manu being at least average, and one or two above average. They weren't, so we didn't win. It happens.

You're also giving a lot of weight to regular season games. They matter up to an extent. If a player regularly stands out, Pop will notice and they'll earn a more prominent role. Happened with Kawhi, Manu, etc. Just didn't happen with Simms or Kyle last season. That's what I mean when I say "he wasn't ready". He just didn't show night in and night out that he earned that larger role. Hopefully this season he does.
It's a good valid point. But as you said earlier (arguing the point on Pop having to ride the two studs he did have), it was evident midseason that against the elite the bench wasn't going to cut it as they were playing. Jsimms hit a very rough patch and him and Kyle were set up to compete with each other anyways when they have very different games. Since neither guy was meant to make a difference in the end, Kyle being the better defender mattered bc none of the guys were going to get a role when it mattered and you'd like a guy who can grab a rebound, get a steal, be solid and not TO the ball if you will only have 5 minutes of said guy, and Kyle did that, even TO Durant a couple of times. He did what was asked as well as he could. But that is it: "what was asked" That doesn't mean he could not have done more, only that they asked him to play a small part.

Many things Pop could have done including mixing and matching the bigs (something many fans argued for), but once Timmy got injured I think if Pop ever really considered that previously, it wasn't an option at that time. As much as I have gone over things I always end up cutting Pop slack based on that. It's why I think maybe Pau doesn't need to be blemish free (the lack of boxing out and rebounding does worry me though, a lot), bc Tim was a shade of himself. Boris also screwed the team up big time. He really only showed up for a handful of games all season to begin with, but besides that, he wasn't taking perimeter shots. Just stopped. He wasn't spacing the floor. Personally I think Dwest didn't do the team a favor, and you have seen that argument from me multiple times already. You are right, it wasn't on Kyle to save a whole mess that Pop put together. And yet games were so close that a few shots could have swung momentum.

Anyways, on to the next one. Season 16-17 I hope goes better for Pop being open minded about new guys. I think just the fact Kyle was there in game 6 and got a shot to share the court with Tim and Manu specially competing in a road game like they did was about as great an experience as anyone could have hoped for him (though he wasn't a rookie, he really was new for the team in being an integral part of it). Anyways, I think Pop does value him a lot, and they did what they thought was best. I do wish he would have been able to help more (as others probably wish to chime on the negative without realizing it's ultimately the team that is screwed up if he doesn't grow up). :toast

[ElNono]

I can say that last season was deceiving in many ways. In hindsight, there was a lot of "problems". But going into the playoffs, outside being aware than Tim was in one leg, this is a team that racked up the best regular season record in franchise history, and was a top 5 defensive team going in. Even against OKC, the first game was a complete beatdown, we were up 2-1 after 3 games, and I think most people though after that game we were going to move on. Difficult to say that, even against OKC, you could see the meltdown coming. I didn't like Pop riding West way too much that series, but it's clear now that TD's knees were busted and he just couldn't play.

[baseline bum]

OKC caught everybody by surprise. They were physically superior in every way and their coach taught them how to not choke.

?????


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-MVYsv3tlQ

[skulls138]

WOOT!!! That is the spirit! :flag::cheer

I can get behind this. I am going to share one thing with you that should get us excited for the season:

A comment from someone:
763075850061230081

I like that. We can't be fricking scared of no one. Though I think the first person Kyle is going to have to lose his fear of is Pop. He was too afraid to get out of Pop's script and get benched and the fear was real. He got benched for entire games for getting out of the script a single instance. That was fine early in the season, but needs to lose that. Manu can teach that for sure. It's fine to have the very young guys in a short leash early but at this point, if you want those same guys to help you win games and you are the coach, that can't fly. I also think that in order for Kyle to be a true point forward Pop has to trust him making choices and Pop hasn't been comfortable trusting youngsters. TBH Murray has a long road ahead or he may simply be soooo wild that even if he wants to play under control he can't. I don't know if that is a good or bad thing but it will be a headache for Pop.

I think even LMA early was afraid to get out of the script and was out there playing tentative half the season. It took Tim getting hurt for Pop to push the heck out of LMA, and he needs to push others too. I look forward to Kawhi's development as a leader. Maybe he's the guy that has to get on things like this, specially with young players, but that remains to be seen.

As for his personality, I frankly don't think Spurs could have found a more spursy young guy if they tried and he's a natural leader. Both understands the game and has the patience to deal with different personalities. He needs to progress in his own game to help the team, but frankly Pop has to loosen up the least too.Thanks for sharing the tweet, KAs got heart and determination Im pretty sure, hes just got an unorthodox style. And I agree that Pop can be overcontrolling. Ive always thought that but obviously is a great tactician too with a whole hand covered in rings so hes definitely the boss. The best I hope for KA is that hes like Kawhi, a steady improver. I believe its in him. I believe he knows that hes unorthodox and he cant always have his way and is working to meet Pops half way. And in all honesty, he needs to do that, he needs a 3pt shot and but more important....to take the @#$%^& shot!!! He needs to do this and more...but not at the expense of what hes already got. Hes a b-ball artist but the object of the game is to win. I know he knows this but can he make it a reality? October is getting closer :toast

[skulls138]

?????


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-MVYsv3tlQYeah well they relearned how to choke. I believe that. They couldnt sustain the belief in themselves when things got tough against the scary GSW and everyone went solo.

[SAGirl]

I can say that last season was deceiving in many ways. In hindsight, there was a lot of "problems". But going into the playoffs, outside being aware than Tim was in one leg, this is a team that racked up the best regular season record in franchise history, and was a top 5 defensive team going in. Even against OKC, the first game was a complete beatdown, we were up 2-1 after 3 games, and I think most people though after that game we were going to move on. Difficult to say that, even against OKC, you could see the meltdown coming. I didn't like Pop riding West way too much that series, but it's clear now that TD's knees were busted and he just couldn't play.
Actually what I saw through the season is indeed the problem of Diaw and D.West being undersized. It showed against OKC in the first game of the season and that game against Chicago where you know that the bench was flat out awful. It wasn't a nightly thing but everyone could tell Diaw/West was a problem. Some trolls were calling them turd towers2 from early on, which was probably an exaggeration but was based on observation. Kyle wasn't shooting the 3 and that was also a problem. At times it was Manu actually playing in flashback God mode that saved the bench. That's the truth. Manu's super hot start to the season covered a lot of dysfunction, but it was visible. As the season went on, Kyle started to play a lot better than Diaw. You could say that showed poorly on Diaw, rather than well on Kyle, but it's still the truth and maybe a bit of both.

I kind of felt the way the bench was constructed they needed flashback Manu all the time and that was unhealthy for the team bc it wasn't going to be sustainable long term due to Manu's age and minutes limits. I was whining about it during the season at times. Of course Manu Fan no. 1: you! won't care about that bc Manu played well. However, when Manu played poorly, the guy who showed up wasn't Mills or Diaw or D west. It was Kyle. Kyle showed a lot of composure. Kyle played very well in losses on the road at GSW and Cavs. Almost brought the team back from huge deficits, but they lacked 3 pt shooting to be able to make full come backs. If Kyle's 3 from SL holds, look out league!! All of this is to show you it's actually an asset to have a player in the bench that's not Manu dependent, that's not a product of playing next to Manu and is very capable of doing his own thing regardless. It's an asset. It's like GSW having Iggy but then adding to their bench Livingston. Together it was a lot for other benches. I actually remember an interview early in the season that Manu gave after Kyle had a great game against Memphis with some clutch baskets in the 4th Q and Manu himself said the team needs players like that.

Which brings me to this, we won't agree about him but I wish him the best for the season. He really got out of his shell and was playing well on both ends without Manu. Not scoring a whole lot but those games without Manu, he was both getting his own shots and finding others in scoring position. That was nice to see for any team fan bc he's young and that was the first time they asked him to do that in the NBA. He was both a lot more aggressive and better when Pop loosened the leash. For the latter part of the season while Manu was injured, Tony flat out told the press Kyle was playing maybe the best out of anybody else in the team. After a tentative slow start to the season, he averaged 20 minutes the rest of the way. He earned his role and paid his dues. That he went underutilized when everyone was healthy is a shame bc Kyle could generate his own shots and was the only guy with possible advantages in the bench in that OKC series. A more desperate coach would have remembered games Kyle helped win, times he was called and delivered. A desperate Raptors coach called Cojo's number a few times while others got their rhythm. That was my point.

It matters not in the end bc of Tim. Nothing could be done about his injury and that was that. We probably won't see eye to eye on this but it was an interesting discussion and I respect your opinion which is the mainstream bc it's what Pop did, hold him back. Hopefully it's not what he continues to do bc he's got different personnel and I suspect Pop is well aware that Kyle (and maybe others like J.Simms) could do more than they were asked to do bc it wasn't their time.

[ElNono]

Kyle will get his shot and some more now that Bobo is gone, IMO... And by "his shot" I mean minutes to show how he can be productive on the court, regardless of who he's playing with and what we're running. It's going to be largely up to him a lot more than last season to give Pop confidence that he's ready for a playoffs role.

I expect JSimms to have a larger role too, but in a different way. I think if Danny continues to underwhelm like last season, I can see Pop taking some minutes from him and giving them to Simms, at least early in the season. Just to fuck with Danny a bit and lit a bit of a competitive fire there. Off the bench, same thing with some of Patty's minutes if he also underwhelms. He's always going to get some of Manu's minutes regardless, since I expect Manu to be around 15-20 mins a night tops, and probably miss back to backs.

Right now at this moment I'm not sold on neither Kyle or Simms being the guys the Spurs need them to be. But I wish them well, and sure hope they eventually turn into that, because at this point, without Tim, Bobo, an old Tony and Manu, we're going to need them.

[SAGirl]

Thanks for sharing the tweet, KAs got heart and determination Im pretty sure, hes just got an unorthodox style. And I agree that Pop can be overcontrolling. Ive always thought that but obviously is a great tactician too with a whole hand covered in rings so hes definitely the boss. The best I hope for KA is that hes like Kawhi, a steady improver. I believe its in him. I believe he knows that hes unorthodox and he cant always have his way and is working to meet Pops half way. And in all honesty, he needs to do that, he needs a 3pt shot and but more important....to take the @#$%^& shot!!! He needs to do this and more...but not at the expense of what hes already got. Hes a b-ball artist but the object of the game is to win. I know he knows this but can he make it a reality? October is getting closer :toast

Yup. Looking forward to it. I am more excited about his 3 pt shot. It helps really space the floor in the system. The first game of the season is going to be against GSW. I think he tweeted that when the schedule was released so at least the dude was not scared to learn of that :lol. More like healthy respect, is what Pop always preaches. I think GSW is going to have all team's gunning for their heads anyways. If guys are competitors they are going to show up and compete for every GSW game. I wonder if it will wear them out. Looking forward to Raymond tantrums, but I hope he keeps his kicking nuts habits from this game. I actually think the Spurs could surprise them.

[skulls138]

They should all wear cups on the outside of their shorts during warmups of first game. :lol