Is Gasol Empty Calories?

[TD 21]

His counting stats and even the most commonly referenced advanced stats might look good and he's unquestionably a good - great passer, range shooter and rim protector, but . . .

- Per Synergy, he was in the 44th percentile among post players with at least 200 attempts last season, which placed him below the much maligned Howard

- Per NBA.com, he shot 57.2% at the rim, a full 3 percentage points below league average, as well as 38.6% from a few feet further out, good for 1.4% below league average

- Per NBA.com, 7.2 of his rebounds per game last season were uncontested

- Per SportVU, his adjusted defensive rebound chance percentage -- a metric that excludes the rebounds that were deferred (or uncontested) -- was worse than every Spurs rotation big last season

- Per Vantage Sports, of the top 10 players in rebounds per game last season, he had by far the worse contested rebound percentage, at 48.90%

- Per Basketball-Reference, the Bulls overall rebound percentage improved by about 7% with him on the bench (as an aside, Lee's teams have historically rebounded better with him on the bench, too)

[MaNu4Tres]

I elaborated on this to many writers and Spurs fans on twitter on how Gasol was "empty calories". I didn't want him and I elaborated why I preferred a Plumlee type ( which they got in Dedmon) and a guy like Harkless to match up with Golden State. The Spurs didn't need a player in the front court who's value is tied strictly to touches on the offensive end and the touches aren't even that valuable considering his age and where his game is at.

Most people expect Gasols numbers from last year to translate.. they simply won't. His numbers should go down to around 11-12 ppg and 6-8 rebounds at best. He'll likely opt in after the year is up because, from a numbers perspective and considering his age, he will have a "down" year ( even though his efficiency should remain relatively similar -- the volume in all phases from attempts to uncontested rebound opportunities won't be close to the same playing with Aldridge and Kawhi).

All in all, I can't really complain and I understand why they went after Gasol, but I would have preferred going a different route.

[Seventyniner]

I agree that he's not as good as his raw numbers might suggest, but I think he is about as good a replacement for Duncan as was reasonable. He won't be able to anchor the defense the way Tim did, but he can fill the same role; the Spurs had a great defense last year and that was with Tim being borderline immobile.

Pau is a massive upgrade on offense over injured Tim too, so I'm pretty optimistic. Chemistry is the unknown, it will take a hit but we'll have to see how big it is.

[baseline bum]

I'm just dreading seeing the inevitable barrage of 1-5 pick and rolls next season against Rique and Gasoft. They'll still win 55 games on the shoulders of Leonard and Aldridge but this team is going to take an enormous step back next season.

[MaNu4Tres]

I'm just dreading seeing the inevitable barrage of 1-5 pick and rolls next season against Rique and Gasoft. They'll still win 55 games on the shoulders of Leonard and Aldridge but this team is going to take an enormous step back next season.

Not assessing the team strictly by the record, I actually think they'll be better than the end product we saw last season. Gasol won't be any worse than post AS break TD, Dedmon will provide more valuable aspects to the team than West ever could.

If you think about it, Duncan, West, Diaw, Miller, Martin, Bonner were all done and didn't provide anything positive when it mattered last year -- all are gone and replaced by better players or new blood with higher upside ( Murray, Bertans, Livio > Miller, Martin, Bonner). We should see a better team than the end product we saw last year. Will they have a better record? Likely not, but they'll have 60 wins at least and have a higher ceiling once playoffs kick off.

[SAGirl]

Actually what worries me the most about him are the multiple reports I have read that he doesn't box out and just defends bc he's that tall and long but can't keep up with anybody. He could really underperfom. It's a scary proposition. The not boxing out explains why the team is rebounding better with him off the floor. He might be bench bound if he's making the team worse but he's got a PO. Spurs are stuck.

[spurs10]

I watched the Olympics with a different focus than normal because Pau was now with the Spurs. We got lucky getting him. A 5,4, & 3 of Gasol, LMA, and Kawhi is a wonderful thing.

[dabom]

I like his defense actually. I think it's underrated. I mean no one stops everyone on a single night. I'm not gonna complain about every fucking drive like a fucking dud. Gonna surprise a lot of people. That's the theme for this year. :danceclub:danceclub:danceclub:danceclub:danceclub

Expect the usual no shows by tony and especially tony slurpers/deniers. :lol

[SAGirl]

Not assessing the team strictly by the record, I actually think they'll be better than the end product we saw last season. Gasol won't be any worse than post AS break TD, Dedmon will provide more valuable aspects to the team than West ever could.

If you think about it, Duncan, West, Diaw, Miller, Martin, Bonner were all done and didn't provide anything positive when it mattered last year -- all are gone and replaced by better players or new blood with higher upside ( Murray, Bertans, Livio > Miller, Martin, Bonner). We should see a better team than the end product we saw last year. Will they have a better record? Likely not, but they'll have 60 wins at least and have a higher ceiling once playoffs kick off.
It really depends how much Pop is really committed to a youth movement. I am skeptical of Pop. It's actually surprising to doubt a coach that has won so many titles but he rode the coattails of a top 5 to 10 player of all time.

Now is when we are going to see if Pop can really coach and he seems to double down on the old and very skeptical to try the new.

[jehawk81]

... I'm not gonna complain about everyfucking drive like a fucking dud...

Except Parker's, right you player hater?

[MaNu4Tres]

Pau is a massive upgrade on offense over injured Tim too, so I'm pretty optimistic. Chemistry is the unknown, it will take a hit but we'll have to see how big it is.

There won't be the opportunity to be a " massive" upgrade. Gasol won't all of a sudden shoot 70% from the field. Passing, they're about the same. Gasoll has a leg up on mid-range jumpers but that's not a great shot and he'll make low 40% of those. It's all about efficiency and he's about as efficient as TD -- the volume won't be there to be a massive upgrade.

[dabom]

Except Parker's, right you player hater?

Except parker has been doing it for years now. I think we gave him the benefit of the doubt in 2014. :lol

It's gonna be 2017 next playoffs...

[MaNu4Tres]

It really depends how much Pop is really committed to a youth movement. I am skeptical of Pop. It's actually surprising to doubt a coach that has won so many titles but he rode the coattails of a top 5 to 10 player of all time.

Now is when we are going to see if Pop can really coach and he seems to double down on the old and very skeptical to try the new.

Spurs won't feel a true youth movement this year. Majority of the new youth will be players 11-15 and they won't have a relevant impact outside of limited filler minutes during the course of the regular season.

[Chinook]

Depends on how he's used. Players who can get their own shots are still very valuable. The bench could really use someone like that, which is why I think that report came out at all. Thinking Pau will just add his counting stats to those of the other starting four would be silly, but thinking that the stats show how big of a talent infusion this was is good. Pau can absolutely beat his man one-on-one. No doubt in my mind that had the team had him rather than Tim last post-season, they beat OKC and probably scare GS if not beat them.

[jehawk81]

Except parker has been doing it for years now. I think we gave him the benefit of the doubt in 2014. :lol

It's gonna be 2017 next playoffs...

You were saying you weren't "gonna complain aboutevery fucking drive like a fucking dud..", but you will when it's about Parker. There's nothing wrong with doing whatever you're gunna do, I'm just calling you out on ur BS

[dabom]

You were saying you weren't "gonna complain aboutevery fucking drive like a fucking dud..", but you will when it's about Parker. There's nothing wrong with doing whatever you're gunna do, I'm just calling you out on ur BS

I elaborated on that statement with the second post you faggot. :lol

Is this what the last of the tony slurpers looks like? Once was a big part of these parts. :lol

[SAGirl]

You were saying you weren't "gonna complain aboutevery fucking drive like a fucking dud..", but you will when it's about Parker. There's nothing wrong with doing whatever you're gunna do, I'm just calling you out on ur BS
It really gets tiring trust me. He's a lost cause. But I commend your effort.

[jehawk81]

It really gets tiring trust me. He's a lost cause. But I commend your effort.

I gotcha SAG, I'm just trolling these lil nigs

[SAGirl]

I gotcha SAG, I'm just trolling these lil nigs
Kudos for you.
I will cheer you like the cheerleader I have been called.
:clap:cheer

[dabom]

Kudos for you.
I will cheer you like the cheerleader I have been called.
:clap:cheer

You've been called slurper too... :lol

[jehawk81]

Kudos for you.
I will cheer you like the cheerleader I have been called.
:clap:cheer

:bobo
:flag: :flag: :flag:

[jehawk81]

& I'm a Kiwi slurper too... :lol

FIFY ma nig:bobo

[dabom]

FIFY ma nig:bobo

Surprised you can type with that White Knight Armor. :lmao

[Dex]

I'll probably just watch the season and see how it goes.

[jehawk81]

I'm surprised I can almost type a complete sentence while having Kiwi's "armor" in my mouth :lmao

Tmi lil' nig

[dabom]

Tmi lil' nig

You have to think that before you type it brah. Everyone's laughing at ya. Stop it flammer. :lol

[Solid D]

No, he is not empty calories.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I elaborated on this to many writers and Spurs fans on twitter on how Gasol was "empty calories". I didn't want him and I elaborated why I preferred a Plumlee type ( which they got in Dedmon) and a guy like Harkless to match up with Golden State. The Spurs didn't need a player in the front court who's value is tied strictly to touches on the offensive end and the touches aren't even that valuable considering his age and where his game is at.

Most people expect Gasols numbers from last year to translate.. they simply won't. His numbers should go down to around 11-12 ppg and 6-8 rebounds at best. He'll likely opt in after the year is up because, from a numbers perspective and considering his age, he will have a "down" year ( even though his efficiency should remain relatively similar -- the volume in all phases from attempts to uncontested rebound opportunities won't be close to the same playing with Aldridge and Kawhi).

All in all, I can't really complain and I understand why they went after Gasol, but I would have preferred going a different route.

Agree. Gasol is just a stopgap measure for a year to placate the fans rather than falling dramatically in the standings. He duplicates a lot of what Aldridge brings to the table, and doesn't bring what we need - elite D and rim-rolling athleticism. He'll be fun to watch, but the team isn't going to win in 2016-17, not with a past-it PG and two PF/Cs who aren't a complimentary fit.

I'm treating this season as a transition year - it's all about the growth of the young players and setting up for 2017. If we find a few players this year and set up to bring in a strong young PG and a proper C I'll call it a success. Then again, I don't think Aldridge is the long-term answer either, so maybe full rebuild would have been a better option.

[dabom]

Ya transition years people. 2ND best record last year. :lmao

[baseline bum]

Not assessing the team strictly by the record, I actually think they'll be better than the end product we saw last season. Gasol won't be any worse than post AS break TD, Dedmon will provide more valuable aspects to the team than West ever could.

If you think about it, Duncan, West, Diaw, Miller, Martin, Bonner were all done and didn't provide anything positive when it mattered last year -- all are gone and replaced by better players or new blood with higher upside ( Murray, Bertans, Livio > Miller, Martin, Bonner). We should see a better team than the end product we saw last year. Will they have a better record? Likely not, but they'll have 60 wins at least and have a higher ceiling once playoffs kick off.

LJC looks like crap that's only here because he was guaranteed a contract for being a first round pick. Murray is an interesting prospect but I expect him to get a lot of D-League burn (though maybe LJC will get more :lol). West, Diaw, and Miller were at least competent NBA players, Dedmon is 27 and has never been able to get consistent minutes on bad rosters. And I'm not a fan of Gasol at all right now, his defense is gone and I think he's going to get into LMA's way the same way Duncan did early in the year when he was scoring really efficiently (and thus getting a lot of touches). I would be absolutely floored if the team was anywhere near as good at the end of the year as the Spurs team that finished last year was. Lee is West minus the jumpshot. Unless Anderson really has a breakout season the bench looks lousy. In a weak Western conference Kawhi+LMA should drag this team to 55 wins but being better than last year's team sounds like a pipe dream.

[Solid D]

I think Pau will be an excellent asset as long as he is healthy. Once he absorbs the defensive schemes, I think he will be a much better rim protector than many in this forum believe he will be.

[tmtcsc]

Some of the pessimism in here around having Pau is astounding. He'll be a tremendous addition to the team and a huge contributor. He's a 7 footer with Championship experience and poise. He's a legit 3rd offensive threat down the floor too. Guarding the Spurs will be a nightmare for most teams next year.

[sasaint]

Agree. Gasol is just a stopgap measure for a year to placate the fans rather than falling dramatically in the standings. He duplicates a lot of what Aldridge brings to the table, and doesn't bring what we need - elite D and rim-rolling athleticism. He'll be fun to watch, but the team isn't going to win in 2016-17, not with a past-it PG and two PF/Cs who aren't a complimentary fit.

I'm treating this season as a transition year - it's all about the growth of the young players and setting up for 2017. If we find a few players this year and set up to bring in a strong young PG and a proper C I'll call it a success. Then again, I don't think Aldridge is the long-term answer either, so maybe full rebuild would have been a better option.

You hit the nail on the head. LMA and TD were not complementary players last year, and LMA and Gasol are not complementary players this season. If the Spurs are to be more successful this season than last, Dedmon will be the key. He almost needs to be this season's Hassan Whiteside. Two issues: 1) will he develop enough to warrant the playing time, and 2) will Pop invest the time in him if he does develop? In order to really compete for a title, he will need to play substantial minutes - and minutes when they count. I expect Pop to stubbornly pair LMA and Pau this season as he did LMA and Tim last season, leaving the Spurs with a bench "big" rotation of Kyle/Dedmon/Lee instead of Diaw/West. Dedmon MUST come through or we are left with an under-sized front-line of Kyle/Lee to get killed like Diaw/West did last season.

[phxspurfan]

He's not Drew Gooden. He will be a solid playoff performer and will open up more space for LMA and also give him a spell on O. And teams won't be able to load up on Kawhi either. His passing will help the offense flow. I think Gasol, Mills, Leonard, LMA and Green will be a great lineup.

[J_Paco]

It really depends how much Pop is really committed to a youth movement. I am skeptical of Pop. It's actually surprising to doubt a coach that has won so many titles but he rode the coattails of a top 5 to 10 player of all time.

Now is when we are going to see if Pop can really coach and he seems to double down on the old and very skeptical to try the new.

So much bullshit in this post. Pop has his many faults, flaws and rode Timmy, Manu and Tony to unprecedented success, but he should be the last worry, IMO. I'd be more worried about the further regression of Parker (shouldn't be a starter), Ginobili having enough in the tank for one last long grind and Danny/Patty finding their touch from downtown.

This upcoming season will be similar to 2003 and 2009 - 2011 when Pop played a lot of different players, line-ups and will likely experiment a ton. Other than Aldridge and Kawhi, everyone else is a bit of an unknown since we don't know what level of performance to expect from them.

[SAGirl]

So much bullshit in this post. Pop has his many faults, flaws and rode Timmy, Manu and Tony to unprecedented success, but he should be the last worry, IMO. I'd be more worried about the further regression of Parker (shouldn't be a starter), Ginobili having enough in the tank for one last long grind and Danny/Patty finding their touch from downtown.

This upcoming season will be similar to 2003 and 2009 - 2011 when Pop played a lot of different players, line-ups and will likely experiment a ton. Other than Aldridge and Kawhi, everyone else is a bit of an unknown since we don't know what level of performance to expect from them.
Well thanks for calling my bullshit.
The reality is that I place the entire ship on Pop's shoulders bc he's the only one who can bench guys or alter lineups and designs strategies. Young guys can't progress if they don't get in spots to make choices and take shots, and yada, yada. You see where this is heading.
I do worry about both Tony and Manu. ?There has been an imbalance of Manu fans visiting the forum shitting on Tony when Manu himself wasn't that good either in the playoffs TBH. Tony at least had a couple of games. But it's really not my style to shit on players bc they are not going to bench themselves or stop shooting if its given to them the discretion to be taking shots. Maybe they are the dudes that need to be in short leashes, but really should anyone play in a playoff series like that?

I like to hear from others about prior seasons. I started following the team in 2013, during the first finals appearance when Kawhi sort of broke out and I was like the Spurs are still a strong playoff team? Anyways, I did see the Manu game 6 in 2013, etc. But yea, I am not knowledgeable on the whole Pop career.

[dabom]

Well thanks for calling my bullshit.
The reality is that I place the entire ship on Pop's shoulders bc he's the only one who can bench guys or alter lineups and designs strategies. Young guys can't progress if they don't get in spots to make choices and take shots, and yada, yada. You see where this is heading.
I do worry about both Tony and Manu. ?There has been an imbalance of Manu fans visiting the forum shitting on Tony when Manu himself wasn't that good either in the playoffs TBH. Tony at least had a couple of games. But it's really not my style to shit on players bc they are not going to bench themselves or stop shooting if its given to them the discretion to be taking shots. Maybe they are the dudes that need to be in short leashes, but really should anyone play in a playoff series like that?

I like to hear from others about prior seasons. I started following the team in 2013, during the first finals appearance when Kawhi sort of broke out and I was like the Spurs are still a strong playoff team? Anyways, I did see the Manu game 6 in 2013, etc. But yea, I am not knowledgeable on the whole Pop career.

I see you just started watching the NBA. You should go to reddit. More your type of basketball knowledge...

[J_Paco]

Well thanks for calling my bullshit.
The reality is that I place the entire ship on Pop's shoulders bc he's the only one who can bench guys or alter lineups and designs strategies. Young guys can't progress if they don't get in spots to make choices and take shots, and yada, yada. You see where this is heading.
I do worry about both Tony and Manu. ?There has been an imbalance of Manu fans visiting the forum shitting on Tony when Manu himself wasn't that good either in the playoffs TBH. Tony at least had a couple of games. But it's really not my style to shit on players bc they are not going to bench themselves or stop shooting if its given to them the discretion to be taking shots. Maybe they are the dudes that need to be in short leashes, but really should anyone play in a playoff series like that?

I like to hear from others about prior seasons. I started following the team in 2013, during the first finals appearance when Kawhi sort of broke out and I was like the Spurs are still a strong playoff team? Anyways, I did see the Manu game 6 in 2013, etc. But yea, I am not knowledgeable on the whole Pop career.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking your opinion or stance. I just get frustrated with how people attempt to undersell the accomplishments of certain people (Pop and Tony in particular) around here.

I'll elaborate more on how he made key changes or "experimented" with prior teams sometime tomorrow unless someone else beats me to it.

On topic, Gasol is definitely a huge concern (age, mileage and natural regression) but they had limited options other than him. They could have gone with Boban, but his ceiling might be too low as a NBA caliber center, or signed a young, up and coming center - the price tag being even higher than Pau - meaning losing more key contributors (Patty, Danny and either Ginobili or Parker) from a "dipilated" roster. Even an unproven (and injury prone) commodity like Meyers Leonard got paid starter money to stay in Portland for Pete's sake.

He'll be a solid stop gap until they can bring over Nikola Milutinov (best option/should be here right now IMHO) or sign/draft another center. I'd go with the former since that allows them to allocate resources in replacing Manu (which will likely be Murray) and either Tony or Patty.

[SAGirl]

You hit the nail on the head. LMA and TD were not complementary players last year, and LMA and Gasol are not complementary players this season. If the Spurs are to be more successful this season than last, Dedmon will be the key. He almost needs to be this season's Hassan Whiteside. Two issues: 1) will he develop enough to warrant the playing time, and 2) will Pop invest the time in him if he does develop? In order to really compete for a title, he will need to play substantial minutes - and minutes when they count. I expect Pop to stubbornly pair LMA and Pau this season as he did LMA and Tim last season, leaving the Spurs with a bench "big" rotation of Kyle/Dedmon/Lee instead of Diaw/West. Dedmon MUST come through or we are left with an under-sized front-line of Kyle/Lee to get killed like Diaw/West did last season.
Talk about setting guys up for failure right?
How about playing Bertans as a 4 too? Already he said he would.
I hope J_Paco is right and Pop goes mad scientist to in the end find some good lineups. It would be for the best if he was really into mixing it up, rather than go same old, same old, but I can't predict Pop like that.
Maybe Pau will start but still come off the lineup first and boost the bench for the most part. They likely need a dominant scorer anyways... but as you said. How will Dedmon do? They have a lot of issues.

[sasaint]

Talk about setting guys up for failure right?
How about playing Bertans as a 4 too? Already he said he would.
I hope J_Paco is right and Pop goes mad scientist to in the end find some good lineups. It would be for the best if he was really into mixing it up, rather than go same old, same old, but I can't predict Pop like that.
Maybe Pau will start but still come off the lineup first and boost the bench for the most part. They likely need a dominant scorer anyways... but as you said. How will Dedmon do? They have a lot of issues.

From what I have seen, against most lineups Bertans will be even more vulnerable than Kyle and Lee. He seems strictly like a small ball 4 to me. Big 4s will eat him alive on the boards and posting him up.

[SAGirl]

On topic, Gasol is definitely a huge concern (age, mileage and natural regression) but they had limited options other than him. They could have gone with Boban, but his ceiling might be too low as a NBA caliber center, or signed a young, up and coming center - the price tag being even higher than Pau - meaning losing more key contributors (Patty, Danny and either Ginobili or Parker) from a "dipilated" roster. Even an unproven (and injury prone) commodity like Meyers Leonard got paid starter money to stay in Portland for Pete's sake.

He'll be a solid stop gap until they can bring over Nikola Milutinov (best option/should be here right now IMHO) or sign/draft another center. I'd go with the former since that allows them to allocate resources in replacing Manu (which will likely be Murray) and either Tony or Patty.
You are right about the moves offseason. I don't think there was much else they could have done after the move for Durant didn't go through.
Overall I am happy and very excited for the season. I specially look forward to watching the teams' young drafted guys develop but Pau is a concern bc I remember last offseason when the team got DWest and we fans (I know I did) ignored warning signs and posts from others about poor fit and rebounding issues pairing him with Diaw. It all turned out to be true, so I am wary now when someone who does know some basketball comes with a warning sign and TD 21 usually comments from a knowledgeable base and he backed up his concern with stats.

[SAGirl]

From what I have seen, against most lineups Bertans will be even more vulnerable than Kyle and Lee. He seems strictly like a small ball 4 to me. Big 4s will eat him alive on the boards and posting him up.
Agreed. I think the bench will play a small ball style but will need Bertans for it to work (and Pop might have to switch up his forwards maybe) bc of his explosive 3 pt scoring and he's an athlete in transition. The problem with last team's bench was the they were small but it didn't work bc they were not athletic or explosive scoring. The best 3 pt shooter in Mills had the balls in his hands a lot and was taking a lot of off the dribble midrange shots, while a guy who was deadly from the midrange and setting up others for shots was played as a corner 3 pt shooter. That wasn't even the worst of it. The bigs didn't fit and were not athletes either of them. I think the actual bench with JSimms or Bertans and Dedmon is athletic and would be explosive scoring and Pop would need to use Kyle more as a point forward or trade him somewhere. Much as I like the dude, I will enjoy seeing him play somewhere else if Pop continues to waste his talent. Anyways, I think they are really better prepared in the bench to play a small ball style but it still is a question mark for sure. If Pau plays in the bench it's going to have to be a different style. I can't say which is best. Pop will know on that one.

[J_Paco]

You are right about the moves offseason. I don't think there was much else they could have done after the move for Durant didn't go through.
Overall I am happy and very excited for the season. I specially look forward to watching the teams' young drafted guys develop but Pau is a concern bc I remember last offseason when the team got DWest and we fans (I know I did) ignored warning signs and posts from others about poor fit and rebounding issues pairing him with Diaw. It all turned out to be true, so I am wary now when someone who does know some basketball comes with a warning sign and TD 21 usually comments from a knowledgeable base and he backed up his concern with stats.

No doubt, it is very, very concerning especially with the age/mileage of Gasol, Parker and especially Ginobili but I'm sure the front-office understood his strengths/weaknesses before signing him. They just need to hope that he has one really good season (and another okay one) in him until Nikola can be brought over. Nikola's build and profile almost exactly fit Tiago's role/profile once he arrived in the NBA. Hopefully they bring him over soon because he is likely the future starting center for the Spurs.

[SAGirl]

No doubt, it is very, very concerning especially with the age/mileage of Gasol, Parker and especially Ginobili but I'm sure the front-office understood his strengths/weaknesses before signing him. They just need to hope that he has one really good season (and another okay one) in him until Nikola can be brought over. Nikola's build and profile almost exactly fit Tiago's role/profile once he arrived in the NBA. Hopefully they bring him over soon because he is likely the future starting center for the Spurs.
I remember a fan named "raybies" who was speculating that they maybe didn't bring him this season to stagger the rookies, not just to avoid having too many at the same time, but to avoid having contract extensions at the same time as Murray who if he reaches his lofty ceiling in 4 seasons will require a potential max or near max contract. It's possible. I was kind of disappointed they didn't bring him and we didnt see him in SL. I hope he gets minutes wherever he's playing at. The experience developing LJC abroad didn't go that well and I hope that's not the case for Nikola.

[Kidd K]

Not sure what to really say about the rebounding stats. The first thing that comes to mind is: Uncontested rebounds need to be collected anyway, so one could say "he's just in the right spots really often". What else can you say, "luck"? Luck is not that consistent. Maybe he just does his work early which is a good thing.

But being fair, it is a pretty interesting collection of rebounding stats. Especially the team performance ones.

As far as his shooting % with the Bulls though. . .they have some very shitty playmakers and an awful playbook. The Bulls offense has been trash for years so seeing bad stats doesn't surprise me. Just about anyone would probably do worse there.

But still. . .interesting stats.

[benefactor]

Spurs will be fine tbh.

[Raven]

we need to get him in shape and playing center. that's all there is really, he is a top level player.

[K...]

Y'all act like there are more than three legit big men in the league.

Okc is a beast, Griffin is legit, but those are two borderline teams. Not true contenders.

Gasol is better than Draymond. That's just fact. This whole " we have lazy fat players" argument is itself fat and lazy

[MaNu4Tres]

LJC looks like crap that's only here because he was guaranteed a contract for being a first round pick. Murray is an interesting prospect but I expect him to get a lot of D-League burn (though maybe LJC will get more :lol). West, Diaw, and Miller were at least competent NBA players, Dedmon is 27 and has never been able to get consistent minutes on bad rosters. And I'm not a fan of Gasol at all right now, his defense is gone and I think he's going to get into LMA's way the same way Duncan did early in the year when he was scoring really efficiently (and thus getting a lot of touches).

LJC will be irrelevant next year, much like Bonner was last year-- discussing him is pointless unless we are talking about the future and not next season. Murray is in the same boat, however, he'll have a small chance at the back up PG spot if he surpasses expectations and forces Pop to play him -- then making Patty expendable ( very low possibility for this to happen). Murray will likely be joining Livio in Austin for most of his playing time.

West, Diaw and Miller have been competent players in the NBA, but we are strictly assessing and comparing this years team to last. Last years' end product featured West who couldn't do anything positive -- he was a liability in all phases when it mattered and his type of play on offense hindered the ball movement we were used to seeing from the bench in previous seasons. As for Diaw, he's going on 35 years old next year -- for those who still picture 14' Diaw as the player they are losing, those people couldn't be more off-based and wrong. Last year, you saw his confidence and skills deteriorate to the point where Pop couldn't even play him -- he'll be retired in the next 2 years. As for Miller, he should have retired 2 years ago.

Dedmon in 16' was a very efficient player for the Magic and provides the type of skills that will enhance the ball movement we have been accustomed to seeing with the bench in previous seasons. Plus, he'll provide better interior and PnR defense than West & Diaw provided. Not to mention, he's 27 and entering his prime, where as West is entering a hospice facility -- comparing careers of the two is irrelevant.

I won't be surprised when we see a better end product this upcoming season compared to last years' team that had a depleted front-court featuring Aldridge as the only net positive player. Duncan was done, West was done, Diaw was thinking about photography, Boban was irrelevant.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

LJC looks like crap that's only here because he was guaranteed a contract for being a first round pick. Murray is an interesting prospect but I expect him to get a lot of D-League burn (though maybe LJC will get more :lol). West, Diaw, and Miller were at least competent NBA players, Dedmon is 27 and has never been able to get consistent minutes on bad rosters. And I'm not a fan of Gasol at all right now, his defense is gone and I think he's going to get into LMA's way the same way Duncan did early in the year when he was scoring really efficiently (and thus getting a lot of touches). I would be absolutely floored if the team was anywhere near as good at the end of the year as the Spurs team that finished last year was. Lee is West minus the jumpshot. Unless Anderson really has a breakout season the bench looks lousy. In a weak Western conference Kawhi+LMA should drag this team to 55 wins but being better than last year's team sounds like a pipe dream.

That's a painful bit of reality. I hope for the Spurs' sake that you're wrong, but that's some realistic insight I think. I have no opinion of Dedmon at this point...he's never played meaningful minutes on a meaningful team to show me what he's got. Murray is not ready to impact an NBA roster past perhaps the 3rd string point guard who makes some impressive plays at times (right now that is...we'll see what his learning curve looks like). Gasol is an enigma...he has all the tools to be a huge addition, but then I find myself concerned about his skillset at this point in his career, and him infringing on LMA's mojo. Pop will really need to make people's roles clear this year if the Spurs are going to do well. This is Aldridge and Leonard's team at this point and everyone else needs to fill their roles to perfection and stay out of the way of the Big 2. The one positive with Gasol vs. Duncan is that LMA won't have the 'awe' factor with Gasol that he had at first playing alongside Tim so I'd guess he'll jump in and be the go-to guy and not worry so much about stepping on Gasol's toes. Again, Pop will need to define what Gasol's role is and not let him bring LaMarcus's game down by getting in the way.

[jehawk81]

I see you just started watching the NBA. You should go to reddit. More your type of basketball knowledge...

You fit right in tbh

[Seventyniner]

There won't be the opportunity to be a " massive" upgrade. Gasol won't all of a sudden shoot 70% from the field. Passing, they're about the same. Gasoll has a leg up on mid-range jumpers but that's not a great shot and he'll make low 40% of those. It's all about efficiency and he's about as efficient as TD -- the volume won't be there to be a massive upgrade.

Completely disagree with that last sentence, at least if we're comparing Pau to post-injury Tim. From February to April, Tim's TS% was 0.493 (dismal for a big man, of the 44 bigs that played 20 MPG, Andre Drummon had the 3rd worst TS% at 0.499), while Pau's was 0.529 for the season (10th worst of those 44 bigs, but almost a standard deviation above Tim's post-injury 0.493).

The volume should also change; Pau's USG% was just under 25% in Chicago while Tim was just under 18%. I would expect Kawhi and LMA to have USG around 25 (25.8, 25.9 respectively last season) while Pau should be around 21-22, with the backcourt having a dropoff.

3% in TS and 3-4% in USG, okay. Perhaps I'm exaggerating some when calling Pau a "massive" upgrade. But it's a very clear upgrade and one that, in my opinion, will more than offset the hit the Spurs will take on defense.

But I think it's the synergistic effects that are the most important. Tim didn't have any gravity after his injury, his man would just camp at the rim. Both LMA and Pau being midrange threats opens up the high-low much more.

[Chinook]

Completely disagree with that last sentence, at least if we're comparing Pau to post-injury Tim. From February to April, Tim's TS% was 0.493 (dismal for a big man, of the 44 bigs that played 20 MPG, Andre Drummon had the 3rd worst TS% at 0.499), while Pau's was 0.529 for the season (10th worst of those 44 bigs, but almost a standard deviation above Tim's post-injury 0.493).

The volume should also change; Pau's USG% was just under 25% in Chicago while Tim was just under 18%. I would expect Kawhi and LMA to have USG around 25 (25.8, 25.9 respectively last season) while Pau should be around 21-22, with the backcourt having a dropoff.

3% in TS and 3-4% in USG, okay. Perhaps I'm exaggerating some when calling Pau a "massive" upgrade. But it's a very clear upgrade and one that, in my opinion, will more than offset the hit the Spurs will take on defense.

But I think it's the synergistic effects that are the most important. Tim didn't have any gravity after his injury, his man would just camp at the rim. Both LMA and Pau being midrange threats opens up the high-low much more.

And Pau can play more minutes, which means he will have time without LMA where his usage can rise. I feel like even if Dedmon is not the starter that he'll play a huge chunk of his minutes with Aldridge. So Pau being the offensive focal point of the bench would be a massive upgrade over anything Tim was going to do to that end.

[spurs10]

That's a painful bit of reality. I hope for the Spurs' sake that you're wrong, but that's some realistic insight I think. I have no opinion of Dedmon at this point...he's never played meaningful minutes on a meaningful team to show me what he's got. Murray is not ready to impact an NBA roster past perhaps the 3rd string point guard who makes some impressive plays at times (right now that is...we'll see what his learning curve looks like). Gasol is an enigma...he has all the tools to be a huge addition, but then I find myself concerned about his skillset at this point in his career, and him infringing on LMA's mojo. Pop will really need to make people's roles clear this year if the Spurs are going to do well. This is Aldridge and Leonard's team at this point and everyone else needs to fill their roles to perfection and stay out of the way of the Big 2. The one positive with Gasol vs. Duncan is that LMA won't have the 'awe' factor with Gasol that he had at first playing alongside Tim so I'd guess he'll jump in and be the go-to guy and not worry so much about stepping on Gasol's toes. Again, Pop will need to define what Gasol's role is and not let him bring LaMarcus's game down by getting in the way. I'm really happy that we have him. That defining of their roles will be something I'm sure Pop will be all over. The players themselves are sure to vigilant of how they work together.

[Brazil]

You've been called slurper too... :lol

I'm guilty your honor...

[Kawhitstorm]

There won't be the opportunity to be a " massive" upgrade. Gasol won't all of a sudden shoot 70% from the field. Passing, they're about the same. Gasoll has a leg up on mid-range jumpers but that's not a great shot and he'll make low 40% of those. It's all about efficiency and he's about as efficient as TD -- the volume won't be there to be a massive upgrade.

The team is going to be somewhat like the '08-'09 Lakers when Bynum was on a minute restriction & Pau was playing a good chunk of his minutes at center in the playoffs.

LMA/Pau/Lee/Kyle/Dedmon should be able to emulate Bynum/Pau/Odom/Walton especially if Kyle/Dedmon become legit rotation players.

Kawhi/Danny/Porker/Patty are better than Kirby/Ariza/Fisher/Farmar.

I guess Bertans/Simmons/Murray would be Radmonovic/Sasha/Brown.:lol

[dabom]

I'm guilty your honor...

:lol

[TD 21]

I elaborated on this to many writers and Spurs fans on twitter on how Gasol was "empty calories". I didn't want him and I elaborated why I preferred a Plumlee type ( which they got in Dedmon) and a guy like Harkless to match up with Golden State. The Spurs didn't need a player in the front court who's value is tied strictly to touches on the offensive end and the touches aren't even that valuable considering his age and where his game is at.

Most people expect Gasols numbers from last year to translate.. they simply won't. His numbers should go down to around 11-12 ppg and 6-8 rebounds at best. He'll likely opt in after the year is up because, from a numbers perspective and considering his age, he will have a "down" year ( even though his efficiency should remain relatively similar -- the volume in all phases from attempts to uncontested rebound opportunities won't be close to the same playing with Aldridge and Kawhi).

All in all, I can't really complain and I understand why they went after Gasol, but I would have preferred going a different route.

I should have clarified: I still would have signed him because I think he was the best talent and fit culturally (though he has a massive ego that gets ignored because he's white) and can help keep them elite in the short term. But I don't think he's quite as good as he might appear to be on the surface.

They definitely needed the athletic, rim roller/protector type, but they got that too, in Dedmon and they got it for a fraction of the cost of what Plumlee got (though Dedmon could be a year away from a similar contract).



Actually what worries me the most about him are the multiple reports I have read that he doesn't box out and just defends bc he's that tall and long but can't keep up with anybody. He could really underperfom. It's a scary proposition. The not boxing out explains why the team is rebounding better with him off the floor. He might be bench bound if he's making the team worse but he's got a PO. Spurs are stuck.

Per Vantage Sports, as of February, he was 2nd in the league with 71 missed block outs. He essentially relies entirely on his height (7'1'') and length (7'4'' wingspan) to rebound.



He's not Drew Gooden. He will be a solid playoff performer and will open up more space for LMA and also give him a spell on O. And teams won't be able to load up on Kawhi either. His passing will help the offense flow. I think Gasol, Mills, Leonard, LMA and Green will be a great lineup.

Despite never receiving nearly enough praise for it, Duncan was as good a passing center as there was in the league.

[Kawhitstorm]

Per Vantage Sports, as of February, he was 2nd in the league with 71 missed block outs. He essentially relies entirely on his height (7'1'') and length (7'4'' wingspan) to rebound.

He's also difficult to boxout on the other end since he reaches over guys even when they block him out. He used to piss me off when he would miss but ends up tipping the ball in without jumping while he has 3 guys surrounding him.

vXy5zqY3IKU

[Kawhitstorm]

And Pau can play more minutes, which means he will have time without LMA where his usage can rise. I feel like even if Dedmon is not the starter that he'll play a huge chunk of his minutes with Aldridge. So Pau being the offensive focal point of the bench would be a massive upgrade over anything Tim was going to do to that end.

Pau/Lee should be featured w/ the bench unit b/c they would get killed by starters.:lol

[cd98]

I think Pau will make the Spurs a little better on offense, but a little worse on defense. I will be curious to see if he is a starter or plays starter minutes. The real deal will be who gets crunch time minutes out of our bigs. His playing time will probably fluctuate with matchups on a per team basis.

[gambit1990]

I see you just started watching the NBA. You should go to reddit. More your type of basketball knowledge...
:lol

i remember when sagirl tried talking down to me. i was watching the nba a decade before she started to.

[gambit1990]

I'd be more worried about the further regression of Parker (shouldn't be a starter), Ginobili having enough in the tank for one last long grind and Danny/Patty finding their touch from downtown.
#1 concern going forward. i called it a looong time ago when most people on here were stilling buying into him/calling him MVParker :lol

[Prose]

I elaborated on this to many writers and Spurs fans on twitter on how Gasol was "empty calories". I didn't want him and I elaborated why I preferred a Plumlee type ( which they got in Dedmon) and a guy like Harkless to match up with Golden State. The Spurs didn't need a player in the front court who's value is tied strictly to touches on the offensive end and the touches aren't even that valuable considering his age and where his game is at.

Most people expect Gasols numbers from last year to translate.. they simply won't. His numbers should go down to around 11-12 ppg and 6-8 rebounds at best. He'll likely opt in after the year is up because, from a numbers perspective and considering his age, he will have a "down" year ( even though his efficiency should remain relatively similar -- the volume in all phases from attempts to uncontested rebound opportunities won't be close to the same playing with Aldridge and Kawhi).

All in all, I can't really complain and I understand why they went after Gasol, but I would have preferred going a different route.

[ViceCity86]

Pau Coca-Cola

[MaNu4Tres]

Maybe people have a better understanding of what TD21 and I meant in this thread.

Empty calories indeed.

[NameLess Scrub]

Is Pau Donuts with Coke?

Is Pau taffys with Kool Aid?

Love the thread title.

[SAGirl]

He's been bad. I am sure he's not going to be happy if he keeps getting benched.
:stirpot:

[Cklbmk]

Gasol needs to be our 6th man.

Mills-Manu-Anderson-Lee-Gasol

needs to be a lineup I think.

they would have excellent passing and hopefully Gasol can abuse 2nd units.


Gasol needs the same role as Kanter, Jefferson, Okafor, Monroe, etc

[DPG21920]

Dude - it's so early. TP playing bad/hurt. No Danny. I mean come on.

[spursistan]

Seriously fuck this terrible and useless signing. What would be we doing with his 20/9 against the Heat/Wizards of the worlds?

Spurs putting a ball and chain on their roster and financial flexibility..Now that Parker down, 15 millions would have been put better on guard..smh..

Hoping at least Pop wise up and cut his minutes for Dedmon..

[spursistan]

^ I hate LMA playing style, but at least he can still lockdown on D.. Gasol is going to be virtually unplayable against all contenders and mid-tier teams that have a physical edge.

[MaNu4Tres]

I elaborated on this to many writers and Spurs fans on twitter on how Gasol was "empty calories". I didn't want him and I elaborated why I preferred a Plumlee type ( which they got in Dedmon) and a guy like Harkless to match up with Golden State. The Spurs didn't need a player in the front court who's value is tied strictly to touches on the offensive end and the touches aren't even that valuable considering his age and where his game is at.

Most people expect Gasols numbers from last year to translate.. they simply won't. His numbers should go down to around 11-12 ppg and 6-8 rebounds at best. He'll likely opt in after the year is up because, from a numbers perspective and considering his age, he will have a "down" year ( even though his efficiency should remain relatively similar -- the volume in all phases from attempts to uncontested rebound opportunities won't be close to the same playing with Aldridge and Kawhi).

All in all, I can't really complain and I understand why they went after Gasol, but I would have preferred going a different route.

[SAGirl]

^ I hate LMA playing style, but at least he can still lockdown on D.. Gasol is going to be virtually unplayable against all contenders and mid-tier teams that has a physical edge.
I agree100%..
LMA is passing better though. 5 assists in this game and was huge down the stretch. Precisely the reason why if you must bench or trade one it has to be Gasol.

He is empty calories.

[apalisoc_9]

^ I hate LMA playing style, but at least he can still lockdown on D.. Gasol is going to be virtually unplayable against all contenders and mid-tier teams that has a physical edge.

Aldridge has never been a bad defender and if the post was utilized more by opponets, he would be our third best defender. He's a great post defender. He can move well and if he gets in shape he'd be even a better defender. Right now, we really only have 4 positive defenders...Leonard-Green-Dedmon-Aldridge...Lee and Manu are smart system defenders but will get exposed if teams decide to attack them.

The offense in many of the games this year have stagnated because we're forcing Pau and Tony offensively. Both probably pout and complain about touches.

Last year despite the slow starts, it was prettrty evident the only time the team would get explosive offensive spurts is when Kawhi (see 4th quarter) and Aldridge arent too worried about hurting Gasol and Porkers feeling ( see GSW game 1)...

Porker and Gasol really holding the team down. Both will have great games against the Sixers of the world though.

[vander]

https://media.giphy.com/media/b2Lj3OjN9NSiA/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/1qW2ds3JMFMyI/giphy.gif
:lol

[spursistan]

https://media.giphy.com/media/b2Lj3OjN9NSiA/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/1qW2ds3JMFMyI/giphy.gif

:lol

Awful..:bang

[apalisoc_9]

That defense :lol

Very hard tl funnel guards to our bigs when Pau is the center. One fo the main strategies employed last year was funnelling Gaurds to bigs..With Pau, you cant do that.

[GSH]

El Matador!



https://media.giphy.com/media/b2Lj3OjN9NSiA/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/1qW2ds3JMFMyI/giphy.gif
:lol

[SAGirl]

Absolute matador defense. Thanks to the guy who took the time to document it. We had seen it but it's always more effective to show and don't tell.

[cd021]

https://media.giphy.com/media/b2Lj3OjN9NSiA/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/1qW2ds3JMFMyI/giphy.gif
:lol


My god, cut him off and force him to shoot over the top, pass or side step. just awful :lol

[cd021]

Aldridge has never been a bad defender and if the post was utilized more by opponets, he would be our third best defender. He's a great post defender. He can move well and if he gets in shape he'd be even a better defender. Right now, we really only have 4 positive defenders...Leonard-Green-Dedmon-Aldridge...Lee and Manu are smart system defenders but will get exposed if teams decide to attack them.

The offense in many of the games this year have stagnated because we're forcing Pau and Tony offensively. Both probably pout and complain about touches.

Last year despite the slow starts, it was prettrty evident the only time the team would get explosive offensive spurts is when Kawhi (see 4th quarter) and Aldridge arent too worried about hurting Gasol and Porkers feeling ( see GSW game 1)...

Porker and Gasol really holding the team down. Both will have great games against the Sixers of the world though.

Mills-Green-Leonard-LMA-Dedmon
Parker-Manu-Simmons-Bertans- Gasol/Lee

that starting lineup would be deadly tbh.

[YGWHI]

The offense in many of the games this year have stagnated because we're forcing Pau and Tony offensively. Both probably pout and complain about touches.

Last year despite the slow starts, it was prettrty evident the only time the team would get explosive offensive spurts is when Kawhi (see 4th quarter) and Aldridge arent too worried about hurting Gasol and Porkers feeling ( see GSW game 1)...

Porker and Gasol really holding the team down. Both will have great games against the Sixers of the world though.

At least we know that Gasol already did it in last game. Talking about how hard he has to work for his points...:cry


I'm paraphrasing, but he basically said Gortat is lucky to play with guards who do a good job of finding him and that he had to work a lot harder for his points.


If Dedmon says the same thing about Spurs' guards and criticize them in that way, Pop would bench his ass for the next 3 months.

[Robz4000]

Aldridge has never been a bad defender and if the post was utilized more by opponets, he would be our third best defender. He's a great post defender. He can move well and if he gets in shape he'd be even a better defender. Right now, we really only have 4 positive defenders...Leonard-Green-Dedmon-Aldridge...Lee and Manu are smart system defenders but will get exposed if teams decide to attack them.

The offense in many of the games this year have stagnated because we're forcing Pau and Tony offensively. Both probably pout and complain about touches.

Last year despite the slow starts, it was prettrty evident the only time the team would get explosive offensive spurts is when Kawhi (see 4th quarter) and Aldridge arent too worried about hurting Gasol and Porkers feeling ( see GSW game 1)...

Porker and Gasol really holding the team down. Both will have great games against the Sixers of the world though.

Forgot about Simmons on defense tbh; dude has turned into a good defender this season.

[Kawhitstorm]

Net negative w/the Pau/LMA frontline: http://stats.nba.com/team/#!/1610612759/lineups-traditional/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&GroupQuantity=2&PerMode=Totals&CF=GROUP_NAME*E*Aldridge:GROUP_NAME*E*Gasol

[MaNu4Tres]

I still prefer Harkless tbh..

[Em-City]

I still prefer Harkless tbh..
To be fair, you called it early and he's had a break-out season thus far and will probably out-play AFA when he's back as well

[NameLess Scrub]

Awful..:bang

What is he thinking about? Isn't it only one option in that case?

[MaNu4Tres]

To be fair, you called it early and he's had a break-out season thus far and will probably out-play AFA when he's back as well

AFA plays a different position. Harkless has played the PF for the Blazers since late last year. He turned the corner w/ his confidence and play when hardly anyone noticed in the playoffs.

A lot of people here didn't like him because they just looked at his overall shooting stats for his career, but were unaware how his game developed recently -- especially his shooting late last year. He can defend four positions, sometimes five and is great with switches. He would have been an outstanding pick up considering his age and versatility to grow w/ the young core.

Was a one of the few great buy low opportunities of the summer.

[TD 21]

AFA plays a different position. Harkless has played the PF for the Blazers since late last year. He turned the corner w/ his confidence and play when hardly anyone noticed in the playoffs.

A lot of people here didn't like him because they just looked at his overall shooting stats for his career, but were unaware how his game developed recently -- especially his shooting late last year. He can defend four positions, sometimes five and is great with switches. He would have been an outstanding pick up considering his age and versatility to grow w/ the young core.

Was a one of the few great buy low opportunities of the summer.

No, Aminu is technically their starting power forward, interchangeable as they are defensively.

Harkless wasn't going anywhere. None of the Trail Blazers RFA's were; they made that clear by matching the Nets' exorbitant offer sheet to Crabbe.

Even though he's having a breakout season, is fulfilling his potential of becoming the second coming of Ariza and fits with today's game, I still say he wouldn't have moved the needle anyway. Talent usually trumps fit and trying to out small ball the Warriors only plays into their hands.

[MaNu4Tres]

No, Aminu is technically their starting power forward, interchangeable as they are defensively.

Harkless wasn't going anywhere. None of the Trail Blazers RFA's were; they made that clear by matching the Nets' exorbitant offer sheet to Crabbe.

Even though he's having a breakout season, is fulfilling his potential of becoming the second coming of Ariza and fits with today's game, I still say he wouldn't have moved the needle anyway. Talent usually trumps fit and trying to out small ball the Warriors only plays into their hands.

When Aminu is healthy he's their SF and defends SFs/wings, Harkless moves to starting PF and defends the PF but he can switch off against any position. And Davis comes off the bench. Labeled positions are overrated anyway, but fact is Harkless can defend 4 positions well and can play the PF if needed.

Blazers prioritized and gave Evan Turner a ridiculous contract and then matched Crabbe way before there was any traction with Harkless. Teams showed interest with Crabbe, teams didn't show interests with Harkless -- he was under the radar and no team offered him any deal and Blazers were able to just sign him for under market value. It's not far fetched to think Spurs could have had a real shot at him after Blazers committed all that money to Turner, Crabbe and the extension of CJ.

I don't think Ariza is a good comparison. He's more versatile, taller and has more strength to hold his own to a degree in the paint and can defend effectively in more ways. He's a Draymond type -- similar build -- similar game except he's not as good as Draymond (obv).

Harkless, by himself, wouldn't have moved the needle to the top. I never said it would have in the first place, but it would have been a complimentary piece that is needed to grow into the future with Kawhi & the younger core. Spurs would have still won 55+ games this year and they would have been set up a lot better for the future instead of prolonging the needed transition by signing Gasol for two years.

[tholdren]

What do you losers think now?

[vander]

Never seen a Spur player put this little effort on defense, he doesn't even try to protect the rim, ever.

on the bright side, if he were to start putting in effort, Spurs could get a lot better.

[Kawhitstorm]

Harkless, by himself, wouldn't have moved the needle to the top. I never said it would have in the first place, but it would have been a complimentary piece that is needed to grow into the future with Kawhi & the younger core. Spurs would have still won 55+ games this year and they would have been set up a lot better for the future instead of prolonging the needed transition by signing Gasol for two years.

PATFO signing Pau probably has something to do w/ LMA not being fond of playing center. Harkless also supposedly wanted to re-sign w/ the Blazers which is why he waited for them instead of signing an offer-sheet.


Walters says several teams have shown interest in Harkless, but the small forward wants to re-sign with Portland.

The other realistic options within Kawhi's timeline were D-Mo or T-Jones but they are both injury prone.

IMO, they just have to go for a HR (Westbrook) in 2018 when Pau/Porker's cancerous contracts come off the books. Another option could be trading Softridge for John Wall who might demand a trade this Summer (Boston could be interested in LMA if they strike out in free agency & they could send assets to the Wizards). Then have Wall recruit Cousins in 2018.:lol (FYI: Danny/LMA have player options in 2018)

If anything, this season is basically a boot-camp for Kawhi to establish himself as an elite scorer & work on his playmaking skills.

[TD 21]

When Aminu is healthy he's their SF and defends SFs/wings, Harkless moves to starting PF and defends the PF but he can switch off against any position. And Davis comes off the bench. Labeled positions are overrated anyway, but fact is Harkless can defend 4 positions well and can play the PF if needed.

Blazers prioritized and gave Evan Turner a ridiculous contract and then matched Crabbe way before there was any traction with Harkless. Teams showed interest with Crabbe, teams didn't show interests with Harkless -- he was under the radar and no team offered him any deal and Blazers were able to just sign him for under market value. It's not far fetched to think Spurs could have had a real shot at him after Blazers committed all that money to Turner, Crabbe and the extension of CJ.

I don't think Ariza is a good comparison. He's more versatile, taller and has more strength to hold his own to a degree in the paint and can defend effectively in more ways. He's a Draymond type -- similar build -- similar game except he's not as good as Draymond (obv).

Harkless, by himself, wouldn't have moved the needle to the top. I never said it would have in the first place, but it would have been a complimentary piece that is needed to grow into the future with Kawhi & the younger core. Spurs would have still won 55+ games this year and they would have been set up a lot better for the future instead of prolonging the needed transition by signing Gasol for two years.

I see a good amount of them; Aminu is the power forward and it would make sense that he's referenced as such: he's longer, stronger and a significantly better rebounder.

Harkless can play small ball power forward, but that's not the same as being a full time one and him alongside Leonard and Aldridge would make for a sub par rebounding front line (given both of their decline in this area) and an unhappy Aldridge, who'd have to primarily play center.

Harkless taking longer to sign does not automatically mean teams didn't show interest and that they wouldn't have matched either way. They were clearly committed to matching virtually anything for all of their RFA's and he's nothing like Green.

I'm not sold they still would have won 55+ games or been set up significantly better for the future. Harkless, like most role players, is valuable in the right context. He has that with the Trail Blazers; he wouldn't with the Spurs.

[MaNu4Tres]

I see a good amount of them; Aminu is the power forward and it would make sense that he's referenced as such: he's longer, stronger and a significantly better rebounder.

Harkless can play small ball power forward, but that's not the same as being a full time one and him alongside Leonard and Aldridge would make for a sub par rebounding front line (given both of their decline in this area) and an unhappy Aldridge, who'd have to primarily play center.

Harkless taking longer to sign does not automatically mean teams didn't show interest and that they wouldn't have matched either way. They were clearly committed to matching virtually anything for all of their RFA's and he's nothing like Green.

I'm not sold they still would have won 55+ games or been set up significantly better for the future. Harkless, like most role players, is valuable in the right context. He has that with the Trail Blazers; he wouldn't with the Spurs.

Agree to disagree. Its all subjective and we differ in opinions on this one. I've seen Portland play plenty as well and Harkless/ Aminu are interchangable at PF/SF. Both can easily play the PF in todays NBA.

Fact is, we know Spurs were hard set on Gasol the moment free agency started (or maybe even before) when they knew Durant was a long shot ( that's why Gasol waited it out til KD made his decision).

The fact the Spurs didn't even look at Harkless bothers me. If they would have looked outside the box and attempted to go after Harkless/ T. Jones or Taj Gibson ( when Bulls were willing to trade him this summer), I wouldn't be bringning it up. But they didn't try at all. They settled on Gasol early.

In regards to fit, I disagree, Harkless would have been extremely valuable as he would provide quality shooting, versatility and play at the back up SF/PF instead of the Lee/ Anderson/Simmons/Bertans carousal. He could have started at PF vs. a lot of teams but I think the versatility on both ends would have been extremely valuable. Spurs would have also signed Dedmon w/ the exception.

So you're looking at a hypothetical three deep big rotation w/ Harkless as the 4th/ possibly the 2nd depending on matchups and a 9 man playoff rotation as such:

C Aldridge
PF Taj Gibson or T. Jones
SF Kawhi
SG Green
PG Parker

C- Dedmon
PF/SF- Harkless
SG - Manu
PG - Mills

[Kawhitstorm]

Fact is, we know Spurs were hard set on Gasol the moment free agency started (or maybe even before) when they knew Durant was a long shot ( that's why Gasol waited it out til KD made his decision).


616705203501281280

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

616705203501281280

That's overstated. He's played center quite a lot for the Spurs - about 40% of the time per basketball reference.

[MaNu4Tres]

That's overstated. He's played center quite a lot for the Spurs - about 40% of the time per basketball reference.

Exactly what I was going to point out.

Kawhietstorm has to find any little thing in anything I post and stretch it out as far as possible to critique it. He does the same thing when anyone has any critique about his love Kawhi. It's his shtick.

[Kawhitstorm]

Exactly what I was going to point out.

Kawhietstorm has to find any little thing in anything I post and stretch it out as far as possible to critique it. He does the same thing when anyone has any critique about his love Kawhi. It's his shtick.

Yeah, I drop FACTs that don't support your narrative.:rolleyes

[MaNu4Tres]

Yeah, I drop FACTs that don't support your narrative.:rolleyes

No, you're mistaken. You drop your opinion -- which aren't facts.

[Kawhitstorm]

That's overstated. He's played center quite a lot for the Spurs - about 40% of the time per basketball reference.

Banging w/ STARTING centers is quite different than closing out games at center when teams go small.

[Kawhitstorm]

No, you're mistaken. You drop your opinion -- which aren't facts.

An opinion SUPPORTED by FACTS rather than intuition.:wakeup

[MaNu4Tres]

An opinion SUPPORTED by FACTS rather than intuition.:wakeup

Lol at you taking David Aldridge tweet as a fact. Its a fact that Aldridge has played center 40% of his tenure with the Spurs.

[Kawhitstorm]

Lol at you taking David Aldridge tweet as a fact. Its a fact that Aldridge has played center 40% of his tenure with the Spurs.

Draymond Green also plays center to closeout games but dude isn't starting at center b/c he has to save his body.

[TD 21]

The fact the Spurs didn't even look at Harkless bothers me. If they would have looked outside the box and attempted to go after Harkless/ T. Jones or Taj Gibson ( when Bulls were willing to trade him this summer), I wouldn't be bringning it up. But they didn't try at all. They settled on Gasol early.

In regards to fit, I disagree, Harkless would have been extremely valuable as he would provide quality shooting, versatility and play at the back up SF/PF instead of the Lee/ Anderson/Simmons/Bertans carousal. He could have started at PF vs. a lot of teams but I think the versatility on both ends would have been extremely valuable. Spurs would have also signed Dedmon w/ the exception.

So you're looking at a hypothetical three deep big rotation w/ Harkless as the 4th/ possibly the 2nd depending on matchups and a 9 man playoff rotation as such:

C Aldridge
PF Taj Gibson or T. Jones
SF Kawhi
SG Green
PG Parker

C- Dedmon
PF/SF- Harkless
SG - Manu
PG - Mills

That's fair, but in addition to Harkless, Gibson probably wasn't really available (unless, like most athletes, someone blows them away) and Jones is close to Davis and had a greater opportunity for a bigger role with the Pelicans.

Fit in terms of the quality of shots. Lillard and McCollum aren't exactly Paul when it comes to play making, but because they're both such proficient off the dribble three-point shooters, they're often trapped and with Plumlee's ability to pass on the roll, they generate better looks than anyone on the Spurs can.

I'd have been fine with that team, but the end result would still be the same and they wouldn't have been set up to be better anytime soon.

[spursistan]

Bump..

Going to give up on D whatever replaceable numbers he puts on O...There is a reason Chicago fans hated his guts even as he was churning out Double Doubles every other night..

[MaNu4Tres]

Not assessing the team strictly by the record, I actually think they'll be better than the end product we saw last season. Gasol won't be any worse than post AS break TD, Dedmon will provide more valuable aspects to the team than West ever could.

If you think about it, Duncan, West, Diaw, Miller, Martin, Bonner were all done and didn't provide anything positive when it mattered last year -- all are gone and replaced by better players or new blood with higher upside ( Murray, Bertans, Livio > Miller, Martin, Bonner). We should see a better team than the end product we saw last year. Will they have a better record? Likely not, but they'll have 60 wins at least and have a higher ceiling once playoffs kick off.

From September 8th in reply to Baseline bum's, " this team is going to take an enormous step back take".

:wakeup

The young players the Spurs brought in were never going to have a big role on this team -- didn't understand the concern tbh..

[Spur|n|Austin]

Bump..

Going to give up on D whatever replaceable numbers he puts on O...There is a reason Chicago fans hated his guts even as he was churning out Double Doubles every other night..

28-7

[SAGirl]

GAsol been empty calories this postseason so far tbh.
15 million down the drain.
Hope he steps up next round. Even Manu Ginobili had 1 Manu game.

[Robz4000]

He's become unplayable tbh; saw it coming and didn't want him for that reason, but against the fucking Grizz? Really?

[SAGirl]

http://i.imgur.com/lkxPM4O.gifwatch Pau here.

[spursistan]

Regular season gimmick feasting on shitty competition..

:lmao at stacking on immobile, no-D bigs when the guard rotation is this awful.

[spursistan]

Regular season gimmick feasting on shitty competition..

:lmao at stacking on immobile, no-D bigs when the guard rotation is this awful.

Playoffs averages : 6.4 PPG/5.7 RPG/1.1 ASP in 23 mpg..Biggest player performance drop-off from regular season..

[HarlemHeat37]

I understand that he's old, but he's sooooooo lazy..his lack of effort and competitive spirit is pathetic to watch, tbh..at least Duncan never stopped trying, even on 1 knee..

Shannon Brown and D'Antoni killed his love for the game:lol

[MaNu4Tres]

I understand that he's old, but he's sooooooo lazy..his lack of effort and competitive spirit is pathetic to watch, tbh..at least Duncan never stopped trying, even on 1 knee..

Shannon Brown and D'Antoni killed his love for the game:lol


Such a waste of an offseason last yr.

I could careless about 60 win team plastic medals.

[apalisoc_9]

Empty Calories...

Gasol is a Doritos.. High Cancerous calories that make you fat, lazy, uninspired, satsfied seating on your couch with your hands underneath your pants.

So lazy...

[timtonymanu]

Bump

[UZER]

He's got that Euro laziness about him.

[therealtruth]

If he can't score they may need Dedmon to counter Pachulia's aggressiveness.

[SAGirl]

:bang

[spursistan]

Regular season gimmick feasting on shitty competition..

:lmao at stacking on immobile, no-D bigs when the guard rotation is this awful.

[ViceCity86]

Taste like shitty diet soda.

[spursistan]

The Spurs got fuckin' hosed in this signing. They should have moved on and never looked at him after he shunned us in 2014..

Now they gotta look for ways to salary dump his ass..This dude is totally unplayable in the playoffs against anyone that matters.

[Bynumite]

MVPau :lmao

Ain't shit without Kobe holding his handPERIOD

[spursistan]

This Spurs era version of the McDyess signing-- only it's more expensive and with a "diva" baggage attached to the player..

[MaNu4Tres]

I elaborated on this to many writers and Spurs fans on twitter on how Gasol was "empty calories". I didn't want him and I elaborated why I preferred a Plumlee type ( which they got in Dedmon) and a guy like Harkless to match up with Golden State. The Spurs didn't need a player in the front court who's value is tied strictly to touches on the offensive end and the touches aren't even that valuable considering his age and where his game is at.

Most people expect Gasols numbers from last year to translate.. they simply won't. His numbers should go down to around 11-12 ppg and 6-8 rebounds at best. He'll likely opt in after the year is up because, from a numbers perspective and considering his age, he will have a "down" year ( even though his efficiency should remain relatively similar -- the volume in all phases from attempts to uncontested rebound opportunities won't be close to the same playing with Aldridge and Kawhi).

All in all, I can't really complain and I understand why they went after Gasol, but I would have preferred going a different route.

What did Gasol average again this year?

[MaNu4Tres]

Not assessing the team strictly by the record, I actually think they'll be better than the end product we saw last season. Gasol won't be any worse than post AS break TD, Dedmon will provide more valuable aspects to the team than West ever could.

If you think about it, Duncan, West, Diaw, Miller, Martin, Bonner were all done and didn't provide anything positive when it mattered last year -- all are gone and replaced by better players or new blood with higher upside ( Murray, Bertans, Livio > Miller, Martin, Bonner). We should see a better team than the end product we saw last year. Will they have a better record? Likely not, but they'll have 60 wins at least and have a higher ceiling once playoffs kick off.

:downspin:

[SAGirl]

Yes u got that right the question is what now????

[MaNu4Tres]

Yes u got that right the question is what now????

There's nothing new from what I've already posted in other threads. I.E: Mills gone, Dedmon gone, Simmons re-signed if reasonable 3/24-30 mil deal. Bertans/ Murray promotions. Hanga being brought over. Lamarcus being shopped ( I think he will be shopped hard, but nothing is guaranteed. If SA doesn't get an offer for him worth trading him, then they'll live with him another year).

I think Spurs need to adapt with the league and move towards the 1 PG, 3 wings ( 2 with size), 1-C philosophy by summer of 2018. They need to start accumulating more two way pieces that fit that philosophy, preferably wings with length and size that can defend on perimeter. As for front court players, they need to start looking more at bigs who who thrive in PnR -- diving offensively. If they can play-make off the catch in dives in 4 on 3 scenarios as secondary play-makers -- even better. And on defense, they need to be able to defend in space in the PnR off hedges & switches and defend in the interior. Give me a center who can do those things effectively over Aldridge in todays' NBA.

I said it last off-season, post play is so overrated and inefficient style of offense. The value in a front-court player who's value is tied to inefficient post offense has been falling off a cliff in modern- smarter NBA. There's no prime Duncan or Prime Hakeem walking through that door.

[objective]

"Vertical Spacing", by way of diving off pick and rolls and being a lob threat, is more valuable than big post ups.

Pau = trash.

[MaNu4Tres]

"Vertical Spacing", by way of diving off pick and rolls and being a lob threat, is more valuable than big post ups.

Pau = trash.

Agreed.

[LkrFan]

Taste like shitty diet soda.

"MVPAUssy" :lmao

[LkrFan]

MVPau :lmao

Ain't shit without Kobe holding his handPERIOD

:lmao

[SAGirl]

There's nothing new from what I've already posted in other threads. I.E: Mills gone, Dedmon gone, Simmons re-signed if reasonable 3/24-30 mil deal. Bertans/ Murray promotions. Hanga being brought over. Lamarcus being shopped ( I think he will be shopped hard, but nothing is guaranteed. If SA doesn't get an offer for him worth trading him, then they'll live with him another year).

I think Spurs need to adapt with the league and move towards the 1 PG, 3 wings ( 2 with size), 1-C philosophy by summer of 2018. They need to start accumulating more two way pieces that fit that philosophy, preferably wings with length and size that can defend on perimeter. As for front court players, they need to start looking more at bigs who who thrive in PnR -- diving offensively. If they can play-make off the catch in dives in 4 on 3 scenarios as secondary play-makers -- even better. And on defense, they need to be able to defend in space in the PnR off hedges & switches and defend in the interior. Give me a center who can do those things effectively over Aldridge in todays' NBA.

I said it last off-season, post play is so overrated and inefficient style of offense. The value in a front-court player who's value is tied to inefficient post offense has been falling off a cliff in modern- smarter NBA. There's no prime Duncan or Prime Hakeem walking through that door.
Yes.
I remember similar posts to this in the offseason from you now.
You have a good idea and one that Pop went completely away from.
I think they were still trying to build around the old big 3 + Kawhi right up until Tim decided to retire. Tim being old school and both old and slow and having won championships with his style still in this era which was defensive first, I can't blame him. Right up until 2015 Tim was still maginificent, had an all star season and was the best player for the Spurs when Kawhi was injured. He amazed me bc he looked the best player in that Clippers 2015 series. I knew then Tim still had the fire to want a championship. Anyways they got Lamarcus in the offseason in 2015 to help Tim out and it went to hell bc father time caught up with Tim in 2016 and Tony and Manu (who had both already been declining the prior couple of seasons, this season finally showed to be done or close to done to put it mildly: one with a season ending enjury that puts his return in at least questionable state due to his age and reliance of his game in speed, and the other simply bc he has by this time given up so much already to father time that only the spirit is willing and it has willed him to exactly two memorable playoff games and a whole slew of forgettable ones).

Anyways, the point is they probably needed to move on in this direction (and getting younger sooner) but they kept building around the big 3 (and the big one in 2016). Last season was maybe a chance after Timmy retired to "start" going in a different direction, try to get some younger talent in a different mold, but they instead doubled down in their style with Pau Gasol. It's comical really that the guy they got undrafted in JSimms turns out to be the better acquisition as of this moment (not counting Bertans and Murray bc their potential isn't realized as of this moment), than their other additions. They just doubled down in a style that had been good for the Spurs in the past but that like any other style needs transcendental talent to work in the proper fashion (and that was Tim and closer to their primes Tony and Manu).

Thanks for your response. I think your plan requires a couple of years to fully form and like any other is risky (bc any personnel can pan out or not, I think there is risk in any choice)... but it makes sense. And right now, they aren't headed in that direction though they have some personnel to head there, but they haven't committed to said personnel yet, which is why (among other reasons) Pop still keeps playing their older (sometimes straight up washed) vets over his younger but raw players. Hopefully those younger players keep developing and maybe there is a new addition or two this offseason. We shall see.

[DaBears]

Gasol while he can be worthwhile when he puts in the effort, nolonger has the killer mentality at this point in his career, don't expect much more than a rebound or bucket here or there.. He has reached the happy place in his life and ( its a deadzone) for players before they retire.

[Fireball]

empty calories? he is not even trying to eat (other than cap space)

[spursistan]

:lmao..

Money down the drain...

[spursistan]

The front office should have let their organizational pride kick in since he snubbed them in 2014 for big city life..

On top of being washed-up, I think there is clear lack of motivation/hunger on Gasol part..He's already won his rings long time ago i don't think he gave it his best effort here..

[SAGirl]

empty calories? he is not even trying to eat (other than cap space)
:lol

[MaNu4Tres]

I elaborated on this to many writers and Spurs fans on twitter on how Gasol was "empty calories". I didn't want him and I elaborated why I preferred a Plumlee type ( which they got in Dedmon) and a guy like Harkless to match up with Golden State. The Spurs didn't need a player in the front court who's value is tied strictly to touches on the offensive end and the touches aren't even that valuable considering his age and where his game is at.

Most people expect Gasols numbers from last year to translate.. they simply won't. His numbers should go down to around 11-12 ppg and 6-8 rebounds at best. He'll likely opt in after the year is up because, from a numbers perspective and considering his age, he will have a "down" year ( even though his efficiency should remain relatively similar -- the volume in all phases from attempts to uncontested rebound opportunities won't be close to the same playing with Aldridge and Kawhi).

All in all, I can't really complain and I understand why they went after Gasol, but I would have preferred going a different route.

..

Pop and RC, please transition and go to the 1 - C, 3 wing, 1 PG philosophy soon. Please try to offload the mistake some of us called 300 days ago.

Thank you.

[SAGirl]

I have to give props to TD 21 for this epic thread

[spursistan]

Top 5 thread of the year...


Lost in all commentary on Aldridge is Pau's complete trainwreck of postseason..Simply unplayable when playoffs schemes kick in..

[PopTheGOAT]

Whataburger calories. Gonna weigh this team down for 2 seasons, smh.

[Darius Bieber]

Yeah Pau was probably the most disastrous signing of the Spurs in the past 5 years.

[timtonymanu]

gonna hate him even more when he opts in next season

[SAGirl]

Empty calories wants to play 3-4 more seasons...

[SAGirl]

His counting stats and even the most commonly referenced advanced stats might look good and he's unquestionably a good - great passer, range shooter and rim protector, but . . .

- Per Synergy, he was in the 44th percentile among post players with at least 200 attempts last season, which placed him below the much maligned Howard

- Per NBA.com, he shot 57.2% at the rim, a full 3 percentage points below league average, as well as 38.6% from a few feet further out, good for 1.4% below league average

- Per NBA.com, 7.2 of his rebounds per game last season were uncontested

- Per SportVU, his adjusted defensive rebound chance percentage -- a metric that excludes the rebounds that were deferred (or uncontested) -- was worse than every Spurs rotation big last season

- Per Vantage Sports, of the top 10 players in rebounds per game last season, he had by far the worse contested rebound percentage, at 48.90%

- Per Basketball-Reference, the Bulls overall rebound percentage improved by about 7% with him on the bench (as an aside, Lee's teams have historically rebounded better with him on the bench, too)
How does he compare this year? He looked awful outside of the first couple of months of the season when he was the Spurs second best player...

[cjw]

How does he compare this year? He looked awful outside of the first couple of months of the season when he was the Spurs second best player...

Disconcerting that he was better early in the season, as he may have just fallen off that age cliff once and for all. He looked like Jeff Ayers out there for stretches this postseason.

[cd98]

Yes, Pau is overpaid, but he's not a total liability on the court. He's a great passer and he can occasionally be an effective scorer and rim protector. I don't think the Spurs would've done what they did with his contract if they knew Kawhi would be out all year. Kawhi as a defensive disrupter can make things easier on bigs.