Good article detailing Danny's shooting woes but predicting bounce back this season.

[SAGirl]

775037065323024384

[Chinook]

Obviously, it's mostly on him. But I don't think the article goes far enough into depth about how the change in the Spurs' offense affected him. At least subjectively, Green seemed to get most of his attempts as a result of kickouts from the post. That's completely different than getting them from PnR penetration. There's literally a different passing angle and timing.

For PnR, it's pretty much set timing from the moment the screener is set until the shooter gets the ball. The defense determines which pass (if any) is made, but they don't really determine when. For post kick-outs, the pass comes if the post player is doubled. That's a lot more random. It would be easy to see why an offense that changes the types of passes they make to a rhythm player could see that player become less effective.

I hope part of what he's practicing at the gym is how to play off Kawhi (and LMA, Lee and Pau when they get there). He and Parker used to have incredible chemistry. That needs to be the case with the others now that the focal points of the offense have shifted.

[TDomination]

Man I hope so. Since 2013, whenever Danny is on, the spurs are nearly unbeatable.

So if Danny can have a good season, it will do wonders for our first year sans Timmy.

[MaNu4Tres]

There's a lot wrong with this article tbh. Good effort, but I don't agree that this is a good article.

Green didn't get a lot more wide open opportunities. Sure he had higher percentage of them, but his volume went down immensely. In 14-15, in 81 games, Green was able to get off 457 attempts. Last year, in 79 games, he was able to get off 349 attempts. The opportunities were significantly lower, and a BIG reason why is because of the lack of an effective roller in the PNR that used to create so many looks for the weakside in rhythm three. I've talked about this ad nauseam and none of the people who write about the Spurs on twitter have brought it up. I've probably brought it up in 5 different threads over the summer.

Also, he's wrong when he says Gasol's pick and pop will create more looks for Green from three. Just look how David Wests' pick and pop action last year hurt the effective ball movement when the ball was forcefully swung to the weakside for contested/guarded 3's.

[jyra]

Just took a quick glimpse at Green's tracking stats:

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201980/tracking/shots/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season
(http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201980/tracking/shots/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)
http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201980/tracking/shots/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Here's the side by side comparison of his open three point shots in the past two regular seasons (attempts per game and the corresponding percentage):



Season
14/15
15/16


Games played
81
79


Open (defender 4-6 ft) 3s
2.3 36.7%
1.6 30.4%


Wide Open (defender 6+ ft) 3s
2.3 52.5%
2.2 35.8%



You can see that the number of wide open shots barely changed while the amount of just open shots went down quite a bit (about 60 less open shots in total). By the way the number of contested shots went down too but not quite as much.

[buttsR4rebounding]

I found it interesting that Danny had Lasik surgery over the off season. Did he wear contacts last year?

[bklynspursfan]

You know, idc if he struggles to shoot if he would just work on his ball handling and be able to drive by a defender and finish in the paint. That would help be such a help to the team

[Chinook]

You know, idc if he struggles to shoot if he would just work on his ball handling and be able to drive by a defender and finish in the paint. That would help be such a help to the team

Not really. Dude driving takes the ball away from better players. Danny spotting up is one of the best results possible for the team if his shooting comes back.

[GSH]

You know, idc if he struggles to shoot if he would just work on his ball handling and be able to drive by a defender and finish in the paint. That would help be such a help to the team


Not really. Dude driving takes the ball away from better players. Danny spotting up is one of the best results possible for the team if his shooting comes back.


Danny rarely drives the ball except when he is forced to (late in the clock, and no other option), or when the defense breaks down and practically begs him to. He's rarely taking shots away from anyone else when he drives. He's taking the only/best shot available. The problem, as Brooklyn said, is that he is really shitty at it. A one-dimensional player is much easier to defend, and it really helps a 3P shooter to be able to ball fake, duck under the man closing out, and drive for a closer shot. Besides getting a higher-percentage shot, it keeps the defenders honest. They can't close as hard if they know that the shooter will blow past them if they do. Danny would benefit tremendously from improving that part of his game, and so would the team.

The angles are important. A pass coming from the direction of the basket allows a 3P shooter to catch and instantly step into his shot. A pass coming from around the perimeter forces the shooter to turn and square up before taking the shot. One of the biggest problems (and one of my biggest pet peeves) is that the Spurs PG's, in particular, are sloppy with their passes. When a shooter has to lean to take the pass, it's so hard to bet a quality shot off. Defenders in the NBA close/recover much too fast for that.

Manu has always taken 3P shots from awkward angles, and while not squared up - and he made a remarkable percentage of them. But he was the exception to the rule, and as he's gotten older he misses more of those than he used to. Danny likes to pull up in transition and shoot the 3, and he's good at it - again, because he's moving directly toward the basket and can step right into his shot. When he has to turn and square up before shooting, he struggles a lot more. Tony, and to a lesser extent Patty, tend to over-penetrate and fuck up their angles. A lot of the time, when they kick out to Danny, they have to make the pass wide to avoid getting it picked off. That forces Danny to lean or step to the side to take the pass. He may be WIDE open when the pass is made, but by the time he gathers it and squares up, the defender is able to affect the shot. That part isn't his fault. Just like it's not his fault when he takes the ball with 3 seconds left on the clock, and a defender closing on his 3P shot, and he is forced to try and drive instead of shooting.

[Chinook]

Green knowing how to drive better would be like DeAndre having a mid-range shot. Sure, it would be bad-ass if he could do it, but it helps him more individually than it would help the team as a whole. Teams forcing a third or fourth option to drive aren't doing anything to affect their spacing issues -- in fact, they're enhancing them. This isn't like forcing a poor shooter to shoot. It requires that Green's man not play off him, which gives everyone else more room to work.

Even if Danny were league average at driving, it would still be better for Kawhi or LMA to get a pass, especially considering that Danny's man is obviously not trying to help off him. Yes, he'd be a really good offensive player if he could drive and score and all that. But he has a good release that allows him to get off shots with moderate pressure or less. It's just not common for him to get the ball and also be in a position where driving is better than passing.

[SAGirl]

Obviously, it's mostly on him. But I don't think the article goes far enough into depth about how the change in the Spurs' offense affected him. At least subjectively, Green seemed to get most of his attempts as a result of kickouts from the post. That's completely different than getting them from PnR penetration. There's literally a different passing angle and timing.

For PnR, it's pretty much set timing from the moment the screener is set until the shooter gets the ball. The defense determines which pass (if any) is made, but they don't really determine when. For post kick-outs, the pass comes if the post player is doubled. That's a lot more random. It would be easy to see why an offense that changes the types of passes they make to a rhythm player could see that player become less effective.

I hope part of what he's practicing at the gym is how to play off Kawhi (and LMA, Lee and Pau when they get there). He and Parker used to have incredible chemistry. That needs to be the case with the others now that the focal points of the offense have shifted.
Good point. Not that I am a shooter or know anything about that but I have read elsewhere with other players that rhythm plays a big part of it. You will laugh at this but the Timberwolves coach would swear Zach Lavine got used to dribble pullups as a youngster and coming into the league he'd pass up on shots when he was wide open to dribble into a pull up shot reducing its efficiency. Coach would be exasperated asking him why he did that and he'd say he wasn't ready to shoot, he didn't feel like he was in rhythm. Kyle is another guy that I am sure he can probably shoot excellent in an empty gym but he played his whole life with the ball. He will shoot better on dribble pullups and on his fadeaways that on a set shot, sometimes passing shots he could have taken bc set 3 pt shooting from a corner was never in his life his thing. He'd go to established habits and things he would do I am sure got him in rhythm. Some of those habits have to be cleaned out specially from young guys coming from college but the point was about habits and what allows a guy to get a rhythm shot.

Anyways I deviated as I often do, what I found interest about the article was the author took the time to break down the spots and percentage of open shots Danny was getting. He is getting good shots but he wasn't used to shooting as you said kind of in a surprised state, and there was an event not discussed there in observing whether he was going to be closed out or not and deciding to drive. It was a factor early. Maybe later he stopped hesitating on his,shots but he was doing that early, like he wasn't ready to shoot. Once you doubt on whether to shoot or not that rhythm is not there. I hope he's getting that shooting swagger back. It's amazing Spurs won so many games with him and Tony sometimes not scoring much at all.

[bklynspursfan]

Not really. Dude driving takes the ball away from better players. Danny spotting up is one of the best results possible for the team if his shooting comes back.

I'm not saying make it a regular thing, but it should be something he is capable of doing. Late in the clock, or nothing is happening in the offense, or something. He should just have it as something he can do in a hunch.


Green knowing how to drive better would be like DeAndre having a mid-range shot. Sure, it would be bad-ass if he could do it, but it helps him more individually than it would help the team as a whole. Teams forcing a third or fourth option to drive aren't doing anything to affect their spacing issues -- in fact, they're enhancing them. This isn't like forcing a poor shooter to shoot. It requires that Green's man not play off him, which gives everyone else more room to work.

Even if Danny were league average at driving, it would still be better for Kawhi or LMA to get a pass, especially considering that Danny's man is obviously not trying to help off him. Yes, he'd be a really good offensive player if he could drive and score and all that. But he has a good release that allows him to get off shots with moderate pressure or less. It's just not common for him to get the ball and also be in a position where driving is better than passing.

I would think a better comparison would be DeAndre having a couple different post moves. You expect a 7 footer to be able to post up, just as you would expect a guard be able to dribble and occasionally make something happen. Like Klay Thompson, you want him shooting the ball, but he is capable of putting the ball down and driving and dishing, or finishing in at the rim. Having multiple guys who can put the ball on the ground and make something happen is valuable. as GSH (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=1519) said, a 1 dimensional player is really easy to defend. If a guy can't go left on the dribble, you force them left. If a guy can't shoot free throws, you hack them.. if a guy can't shoot, you prevent the drive by backing off and daring them to shoot, etc... He needs to make guys pay for the way the close out on him or when he's got an open angle to the basket.

Now he doesn't have to drive to finish, maybe he is kicking it out to Kawhi/LMA, or maybe he's collapsing the defense and dumping the ball to Pau. But his ball handling in general is very poor, and for a guard, I think it's something he needs to seriously improve on.

[SAGirl]

There's a lot wrong with this article tbh. Good effort, but I don't agree that this is a good article.

Green didn't get a lot more wide open opportunities. Sure he had higher percentage of them, but his volume went down immensely. In 14-15, in 81 games, Green was able to get off 457 attempts. Last year, in 79 games, he was able to get off 349 attempts. The opportunities were significantly lower, and a BIG reason why is because of the lack of an effective roller in the PNR that used to create so many looks for the weakside in rhythm three. I've talked about this ad nauseam and none of the people who write about the Spurs on twitter have brought it up. I've probably brought it up in 5 different threads over the summer.

Also, he's wrong when he says Gasol's pick and pop will create more looks for Green from three. Just look how David Wests' pick and pop action last year hurt the effective ball movement when the ball was forcefully swung to the weakside for contested/guarded 3's.
Opportunities will probably remain lower but Danny passed up on shots,he could have taken to "drive" the whole thing is tied to each other with cascade effects.

Edit: but I have to agree in general with your points,on lack of an effective roller. Kyle was criticized from passing up on corner shots,but they weren't really wide open shots. The shots he passed up on he was being closed put bc no one has effectively sucked the defense in. I have looked up his highlights and his made corner shots were off effective penetration and he was wide open. I sure those are the shots he was told to take. Shots he passed up someone was coming in his direction. Specially in the bench corner 3s were not really open most of the time.

Danny has a different issue bc he got shots out of post ups and that's unlikely to change. Manu Ginobili is a guy who, plating off Tim I am guessing has been exposed to 3 point shooting out of a post up, Danny not that often. I do think for Danny a lot of it had to do with his rhythm, he stated himself it was chemistry which is similar.

[MaNu4Tres]

Opportunities will probably remain lower but Danny passed up on shots,he could have taken to "drive" the whole thing is tied to each other with cascade effects.

With more diving action from LA (started doing it in playoffs vs. OKC), Pau, Dedmon, Lee and Kyle ( he did it a lot in Summer League from the PF spot), Danny should see his attempts increase. The diving action from PnR is what opens up the offense on the weakside and its what makes passing a huge weapon. If the weakside is guarded by a balanced defender, swinging or passing the ball to the weakside is pointless and just chews up clock -- which is what happened often with 2nd unit last year when it mattered. They swung the ball but nothing would come out of it because the weakside defenders didn't have to move or rotate to protect an effective role man like Splitter or Dedmon.

Not sure why its so hard for people to understand this.

[SAGirl]

I found it interesting that Danny had Lasik surgery over the off season. Did he wear contacts last year?
I don't know but Kawhi's poor (for his standards) shooting in 14/15 was at least in part attributable to his,eyesight being clouded early in the season. Speculation, but I guess so.

[MaNu4Tres]

Danny has a different issue bc he got shots out of post ups and that's unlikely to change. Manu Ginobili is a guy who, plating off Tim I am guessing has been exposed to 3 point shooting out of a post up, Danny not that often. I do think for Danny a lot of it had to do with his rhythm, he stated himself it was chemistry which is similar.

I disagree. Even with the starters, post ups remains a small percentage of the offense (even though it increased last year). They ran a ton of PnR with Leonard as the ball handler with Parker in the corner opposed to Leonard in the corner like previous years. The simple dive action can create more opportunities for the weakside three. This is where Leonard has to get better. He has to get better with his passing out of the PnR and focus on making the right play or pass instead of just trying to score. However, last year he had no real choices because the only open pass that was open was to the Pick N pop guy in Aldridge or West. The other options on the weakside are guarded when the big pops for a long two.

If you go back and watch the OKC series, LMA had started diving much more than he did in the regular season. The problem was the bench with West being an exclusive pick and Pop guy and with Diaw losing all confidence in Pick and Pop three opportunities and opportunities as the secondary PG from passes to the Pn roll action. Spurs only had one effective diver and that was LA and he still popped more than dove-- even though he increased the amount of dives during the OKC series.

On top of that, Green sees minutes staggered with 2nd unit too, especially against the great teams -- when Pop tightens the rotation. When he plays minutes w/ Manu and 2nd unit, he'll see more opportunities having Dedmon rolling to the basket instead of having West popping out for his ball stopping 15-18 footer.

[SAGirl]

With more diving action from LA (started doing it in playoffs vs. OKC), Pau, Dedmon, Lee and Kyle ( he did it a lot in Summer League from the PF spot), Danny should see his attempts increase. The diving action from PnR is what opens up the offense on the weakside and its what makes passing a huge weapon. If the weakside is guarded by a balanced defender, swinging or passing the ball to the weakside is pointless and just chews up clock -- which is what happened often with 2nd unit last year when it mattered. They swung the ball but nothing would come out of it because the weakside defenders didn't have to move or rotate to protect an effective role man like Splitter or Dedmon.

Not sure why its so hard for people to understand this.
Have to agree. The bench had a lot of problems last season bc of what you stated. Somewhere else I argued they needed flashback super Manu on a nightly basis to cover up deficiencies. Just goes to show having "names" if they are miscast for their role doesn't a good system work. It's truly amazing they did as well as they did bc it was a super tough defensive team basically.

[SAGirl]

I disagree. Even with the starters, post ups remains a small percentage of the offense (even though it increased last year). They ran a ton of PnR with Leonard as the ball handler with Parker in the corner opposed to Leonard in the corner like previous years. The simple dive action can create more opportunities for the weakside three. This is where Leonard has to get better. He has to get better with his passing out of the PnR and focus on making the right play or pass instead of just trying to score. However, last year he had no real choices because the only open pass that was open was to the Pick N pop guy in Aldridge or West. The other options on the weakside are guarded when the big pops for a long two.

If you go back and watch the OKC series, LMA had started diving much more than he did in the regular season. The problem was the bench with West being an exclusive pick and Pop guy and with Diaw losing all confidence in Pick and Pop three opportunities and opportunities as the secondary PG from passes to the Pn roll action. Spurs only had one effective diver and that was LA and he still popped more than dove-- even though he increased the amount of dives during the OKC series.

On top of that, Green sees minutes staggered with 2nd unit too, especially against the great teams -- when Pop tightens the rotation. When he plays minutes w/ Manu and 2nd unit, he'll see more opportunities having Dedmon rolling to the basket instead of having West popping out for his ball stopping 15-18 footer.
I can't recall such details but the offense through Kawhi and LMA involved a lot of post ups to my recollection. However later in the season Pop started to place the ball in Kawhi's hands more in PnR or PnP with LMA. It still involved a lot of ballhandling by Tony so it was mixed at best. I feel like there wasn't enough involvement of Kawhi in PnR but my memory admittedly is cloudy bc it was one offense in the beginning and it changed later.

[skulls138]

Yes more driving (diving?) by LMA to kick out if double teamed I think is the answer to getting DG back on track. I think LMA is a better driver than people say, its just harder work. Also think Kawhi should go back to being more of a three point shooter. Im a big Kawhi fan but seeing what we have, to get everyone involved he should do less face up iso. If you want to give Kawhi some iso have him post up too so he can drive and kick.

[Chinook]

I would think a better comparison would be DeAndre having a couple different post moves.

Nah, that's closer to asking Green to run a PnR, which he already does more than people credit him for. Still isn't good at it, though.


1 dimensional player is really easy to defend.

This comes up a couple of times a year. Where I think you and the others are wrong is that Green job is not to score. Literally, it's to be defended. Jordan is the same way. It's not hard to stop either if you commit your defense to taking away their strengths, but doing that for a player who's rarely higher than a third option and is sometimes as low as a fifth option is bad for your defense. That teams gameplan for Danny or put their best perimeter defender on him rather than Kawhi for some games is a testament to respect for his skill around the league. If he's sucking a man out of the defense, he's doing his job, because that's a man who won't double or show or rotate.

With Jordan, he could be neutralized if the defense just left Paul open or didn't contest shots at the rim. He would only score once or twice a game. But obviously, that'd never happen. With Danny, you don't ignore the PnR (ideally) or neglect to double just so you can remove Green's dimension. You're going to have to rotate down, and then he's going to burn you (at least previously). Green being a driver would make it much harder to shut him down, but him using more possessions on long-twos or average shots at the rim doesn't make sense when the option is always there to just pass the ball out to reset. If the shot clock is winding down, he can just shoot the contested three. Over his career, he isn't too bad in those situations anyway.

[Chinook]

Yes more driving (diving?) by LMA to kick out if double teamed I think is the answer to getting DG back on track. I think LMA is a better driver than people say, its just harder work. Also think Kawhi should go back to being more of a three point shooter. Im a big Kawhi fan but seeing what we have, to get everyone involved he should do less face up iso. If you want to give Kawhi some iso have him post up too so he can drive and kick.

driving=what people want Green to do more of

diving=what people want LMA to do more of

Yeah, Aldridge is a good PnR target. He is tall with long arms, athleticism and finishing ability. As I have said many times, I think he and the team would be better served with him being a center who dove more (like a more agile version of SNT Gasol) and starting a PF who could shoot and handle the ball a bit. Alas, he's a PF for at least another season. Anyways, him diving would help diversify the PnR/PnP game, and with Pau being able to do both as well, it would give the Spurs more angles to use on the attack.

[UZER]

I think the Duncan LMA combo never really clicked. Someone was always occupying the others space which threw off all of the teams spacing.

I think the Danny will get better, cleaner looks with the Pau LMA combo since both guys require attention even 18ft from the basket, unlike Duncan.

[YGWHI]

Yes more driving (diving?) by LMA to kick out if double teamed I think is the answer to getting DG back on track. I think LMA is a better driver than people say, its just harder work. Also think Kawhi should go back to being more of a three point shooter. Im a big Kawhi fan but seeing what we have, to get everyone involved he should do less face up iso. If you want to give Kawhi some iso have him post up too so he can drive and kick.

Don't get this. Kawhi should go back to being more of a 3-point shooter to get everyone involved...that means Kawhi would have the ball less in his hands and he would spot-up more.

But he isn't Danny or Marco, he isn't a true three-point shooter, it's pretty obvious he won't maintain his 3FG% of last season.

So this team will spot-up more a non-true-shooter and they will take the ball out of the team leading scorer's hands...This doesn't sound good, there many reasons why the teams give the ball to their best players and main scorers.

I just hope Pop continues involving him in more P&R situations or even isos plays, instead of looking him parking in the corner again, because the only way Kawhi can help the Spurs' offense is staying aggressive, looking to attack and score.

[dabom]

Don't get this. Kawhi should go back to being more of a 3-point shooter to get everyone involved...But that means Kawhi would have the ball less in his hands and he would spot-up more.

But he isn't Danny or Marco, he isn't a true three-point shooter, it's pretty obvious he won't maintain his 3FG% of last season.

So this team will spot-up more a non-true-shooter and they will take the ball out of the hands of the team leading scorer...This doesn't sound good, there many reasons why the teams give the ball to their best players and main scorers.

I just hope Pop continues involving him in more P&R situations or even isos plays, instead of looking him parking in the corner again, because the only way Kawhi can help the Spurs' offense is staying aggressive, looking to attack and score.

He wants to give Fathead and Porker more on ball "dutties". :lol

[dabom]

I always said Danny was getting the same open looks he got like always. And the end of the year agrees with me. I also said Danny needs to focus on the three and stop thinking about the drive. This is what fucked with his head. He isn't the most mentally tough Spurs. Always Hot or Cold with big droughts. The coaching staff wanted to see what he could do with more offensive moves and it backfired on the Spurs. His game is what it is. Lets not fuck with it. Let him just be the ultimate roll player.

[YGWHI]

He wants to give Fathead and Porker more on ball "dutties". :lol

Well, I've said I'd like to see a bit more of Kyle as point-foward with the 2nd unit...But what will be Manu's role in that scenario?

About Parker...He has been a Net negative player in the last two playoffs, why the team should give him more on ball dutties, when his P&Rs become ineffective in playoffs?

[dabom]

Well, I've said I'd like to see a bit more of Kyle as point-foward with the 2nd unit...But what will be Manu's role in that scenario?

About Parker...He has been a Net negative player in the last two playoffs, why the team should give him more on ball dutties, when his P&Rs become ineffective in playoffs?

Manu given all the shit he gets, he is still a net positive player in the long run. And we go as far as he can push the second unit. Patty Mills is the only exception. Fathead just isn't a playmaker in the NBA. I've been saying he was a bad player since last year, way before the playoffs. I continue to be correct on that guy. He isn't gonna amount to anything for the future of the Spurs. Probably traded for something.

And Parker really just needs to be fazed out. He really doesn't compliment Kawhi or LMA.

Driving it in and kicking it out for LMA isn't even special. Once LMA started missing, Tony couldn't actually drive it in. :lol

We need ab athletic defensive PG who can shoot threes with marginal passing. That's the bare minimum for a PG for the Spurs to succeed.

[YGWHI]

And Parker really just needs to be fazed out. He really doesn't compliment Kawhi or LMA.

Although I'm not a fan of relying on Parker, I can see a lot of P&Rs between Parker and Gasol this new season.

Parker-Gasol makes more sense than Parker-LMA as duo, but Parker-Kawhi are definitely not compatible on the court.


Driving it in and kicking it out for LMA isn't even special. Once LMA started missing, Tony couldn't actually drive it in. :lol
Sadly, we saw that in the last games of OKC series.

[YGWHI]

There isn't a science behind Danny being a streaky shooter.

He just needs one game to get hot or... the whole season.

People can talk about different passing angles, post-up passes instead of P&Rs passes, the chemistry with new teammates...

But other Spurs players faced the same issues with the passing/new teammates being the focal points of the offense and they still increased their 3P% in the season.

In fact, Danny had the supposed passing/chemistry issues in playoffs but he shot over .50 3P%...

Anyway, he can't shoot worse than last year so I'm very optimistic about his shooting in the new season. A streaky shooter? Sure. But when his shot is on, it's deadly, the Spurs, too.

[SAGirl]

There isn't a science behind Danny being a streaky shooter.

He just needs one game to get hot or... the whole season.

People can talk about different passing angles, post-up passes instead of P&Rs passes, the chemistry with new teammates...

But other Spurs players faced the same issues with the passing/new teammates being the focal points of the offense and they still increased their 3P% in the season.

In fact, Danny had the supposed passing/chemistry issues in playoffs but he shot over .50 3P%...

Anyway, he can't shoot worse than last year so I'm very optimistic about his shooting in the new season. A streaky shooter? Sure. But when his shot is on, it's deadly, the Spurs, too.
Danny has had his streakiness forever but he shot 33% for an entire season. Something caused a problem and it ballooned to his confidence etc. If it was his eyesight I could believe it, that's how dramatic a 10% difference is for an entire season.

[skulls138]

Don't get this. Kawhi should go back to being more of a 3-point shooter to get everyone involved...that means Kawhi would have the ball less in his hands and he would spot-up more.

But he isn't Danny or Marco, he isn't a true three-point shooter, it's pretty obvious he won't maintain his 3FG% of last season.

So this team will spot-up more a non-true-shooter and they will take the ball out of the team leading scorer's hands...This doesn't sound good, there many reasons why the teams give the ball to their best players and main scorers.

I just hope Pop continues involving him in more P&R situations or even isos plays, instead of looking him parking in the corner again, because the only way Kawhi can help the Spurs' offense is staying aggressive, looking to attack and score.Im not talking complete revamping of the progress hes made, Im talking more or less emphasis on the different aspects of his game. Im thinking of ways to get more involved, especially Green, and to find ways Leonard can save on energy too. If he shoots more threes he can keep the same amount of points and expend less energy, because he expends a ton the way he plays, in addition to the D and rebounding. I also mentioned that he should emphasize his back to the basket game over his face up game too, not just be a Reggie Miller or something.

[SAGirl]

Im not talking complete revamping of the progress hes made, Im talking more or less emphasis on the different aspects of his game. Im thinking of ways to get more involved, especially Green, and to find ways Leonard can save on energy too. If he shoots more threes he can keep the same amount of points and expend less energy, because he expends a ton the way he plays, in addition to the D and rebounding. I also mentioned that he should emphasize his back to the basket game over his face up game too, not just be a Reggie Miller or something.

It's a good point and it's a balance. I think the main problem lies in an aging backcourt that can't be relied on to close games. Kawhi will need to handle the ball more through the season I am guessing to get comfortable in that role and then maybe defer for parts of games in the postseason to take over in the 4th. I am sure there are ways that Pop can make it work.

[bklynspursfan]

Nah, that's closer to asking Green to run a PnR, which he already does more than people credit him for. Still isn't good at it, though.

First, it's nice to have a debate on here and not have it be agenda driven and filled with garbage, so thank you... :toast I have to pay more attention, maybe I didn't notice him in PnR situations. I guess I really value guys being able to do multiple things, and with someone like Green who is so valuable defensively, it would be a shame for him to come out of games cause he looks out of place on offense. Not to mention he's one of our better FT shooters.




This comes up a couple of times a year. Where I think you and the others are wrong is that Green job is not to score. Literally, it's to be defended. Jordan is the same way. It's not hard to stop either if you commit your defense to taking away their strengths, but doing that for a player who's rarely higher than a third option and is sometimes as low as a fifth option is bad for your defense. That teams gameplan for Danny or put their best perimeter defender on him rather than Kawhi for some games is a testament to respect for his skill around the league. If he's sucking a man out of the defense, he's doing his job, because that's a man who won't double or show or rotate.

I think in today's NBA, versatility and guys who can do multiple things is key. GS prior to KD was like that and they could throw a variety of lineups out there. You don't necessarily need your best player on Green, just someone who will shadow him and chase him around screens, contest his shots, etc... If you give him little breathing room, I think he should be able to dribble around a screen and pull up off the dribble... Actually as I type this, maybe that is something that could help him even more, is to be able to take a few dribbles left/right around a screen and pull up. He doesn't do it often enough, and is a great catch and shoot shooter. But if a guy closes out on him, maybe he could take 2-3 dribbles to free up some space for himself. Obviously not out there dribbling like Kyrie Irving, but just a few dribbles to the side, or even around a screen I think could make him much more of a threat. Having a lot of threats on a team is certainly a good problem to have.

Take a look at his numbers, nearly 72% of his FG attempts came with him not dribbling at all, and 83% with 1 dribble or less.

http://i66.tinypic.com/ne1qx.png



With Jordan, he could be neutralized if the defense just left Paul open or didn't contest shots at the rim. He would only score once or twice a game. But obviously, that'd never happen. With Danny, you don't ignore the PnR (ideally) or neglect to double just so you can remove Green's dimension. You're going to have to rotate down, and then he's going to burn you (at least previously). Green being a driver would make it much harder to shut him down, but him using more possessions on long-twos or average shots at the rim doesn't make sense when the option is always there to just pass the ball out to reset. If the shot clock is winding down, he can just shoot the contested three. Over his career, he isn't too bad in those situations anyway.

Agreed, he is decent late in the shot clock. I just think having multiple playmakers will help this team against some of these defensive teams who throw versatile/athletic lineups at us. If there is any way we can make them work a little harder and not be as predictable, then that's a positive thing. It's not something we want to make a regular thing with Green, but maybe a couple times a game if the offense is stagnant and he catches his defender just defending him for the shot, that's where I'd like to see him make something happen either on a pull-up off the dribble, or maybe even getting an open look for his teammates.

[Chinook]

First, it's nice to have a debate on here and not have it be agenda driven and filled with garbage, so thank you... :toast I have to pay more attention, maybe I didn't notice him in PnR situations. I guess I really value guys being able to do multiple things, and with someone like Green who is so valuable defensively, it would be a shame for him to come out of games cause he looks out of place on offense. Not to mention he's one of our better FT shooters.

And it's nice not having to deal with a ton of :lols and :lmaos

Green runs the PnP much more than the PnR, because I guess the pass-back is easier. The issue has often been that he's passed because he's stopped rather than because he's forced the defense to leave his man open. So his passes have often resulted in poor or aborted attempts. With Gasol and LMA supposedly starting, it should be easier for him to hit guys in places they can score. But he's really predictable in his passes (likes to jump and spin in the air to pass back). And that makes it a very risky result by him.


I think in today's NBA, versatility and guys who can do multiple things is key. GS prior to KD was like that and they could throw a variety of lineups out there. You don't necessarily need your best player on Green, just someone who will shadow him and chase him around screens, contest his shots, etc... If you give him little breathing room, I think he should be able to dribble around a screen and pull up off the dribble... Actually as I type this, maybe that is something that could help him even more, is to be able to take a few dribbles left/right around a screen and pull up. He doesn't do it often enough, and is a great catch and shoot shooter. But if a guy closes out on him, maybe he could take 2-3 dribbles to free up some space for himself. Obviously not out there dribbling like Kyrie Irving, but just a few dribbles to the side, or even around a screen I think could make him much more of a threat. Having a lot of threats on a team is certainly a good problem to have.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier. It would be GREAT for him -- especially individually -- for him to be able to score better off the dribble. Like, a consistent game inside the arc would probably put him in the top three or four shooting-guards in the league. If he could magically get that ability, I'd be very happy. The issue is that I don't think anyone wants Green using up not only the possessions where he would shoot a three (about seven per-36) and then add more possessions where he is creating for himself rather than letting the offense find a better shot. He'd have to be better than at least Parker at that for it to be worthwhile, and I don't consider that realistic.


Agreed, he is decent late in the shot clock. I just think having multiple playmakers will help this team against some of these defensive teams who throw versatile/athletic lineups at us. If there is any way we can make them work a little harder and not be as predictable, then that's a positive thing. It's not something we want to make a regular thing with Green, but maybe a couple times a game if the offense is stagnant and he catches his defender just defending him for the shot, that's where I'd like to see him make something happen either on a pull-up off the dribble, or maybe even getting an open look for his teammates.

What would really help both him and the team is if he moved more without the ball, specifically in two ways. First, if he could shoot off screens, that'd be huge for the entact offense's diversity and for Green's ability to shoulder a bigger load when Kawhi is out. It's one of those things he doesn't do often and isn't great at. But I don't see why it can't improve. Second, he needs to cut to the rim more. His first year starting, the Spurs opened up damned near every game by running a Green back-door play. Bringing those back (and alley-oops) would make it even harder for his man to play off him.

If the Spurs committed to making Green a set part of the offense rather than just a contingency, he'd probably average 12-15ppg (though on worse efficiency than usual). But that's not the plan, it seems. And with Kawhi, LMA and Gasol that makes sense. Plus, Danny would have to show he could handle the load and not just fade like he has for the past four years when Pop has him start the season with a new technique.

[T Park]

There's a lot wrong with this article tbh. Good effort, but I don't agree that this is a good article.

Green didn't get a lot more wide open opportunities. Sure he had higher percentage of them, but his volume went down immensely. In 14-15, in 81 games, Green was able to get off 457 attempts. Last year, in 79 games, he was able to get off 349 attempts. The opportunities were significantly lower, and a BIG reason why is because of the lack of an effective roller in the PNR that used to create so many looks for the weakside in rhythm three. I've talked about this ad nauseam and none of the people who write about the Spurs on twitter have brought it up. I've probably brought it up in 5 different threads over the summer.

Also, he's wrong when he says Gasol's pick and pop will create more looks for Green from three. Just look how David Wests' pick and pop action last year hurt the effective ball movement when the ball was forcefully swung to the weakside for contested/guarded 3's.



Yeah but there's a difference between guarding David West, and guarding Pau Gasol. Significant enough to where the looks change.

[T Park]

Well, I've said I'd like to see a bit more of Kyle as point-foward with the 2nd unit...But what will be Manu's role in that scenario?

About Parker...He has been a Net negative player in the last two playoffs, why the team should give him more on ball dutties, when his P&Rs become ineffective in playoffs?


With Manu playing this summer and erroring on the side of caution, i'd wager many doesn't get consistent decent minutes till January

[MaNu4Tres]

Yeah but there's a difference between guarding David West, and guarding Pau Gasol. Significant enough to where the looks change.

No I disagree. There's not a big difference between Gasol shooting a long two and West shooting the long two ( we are talking about that action exclusively) . No matter who it is, David or Pau, the defense would rather be late contesting that shot with the strong side defenders involved in the PnPop instead of having the weakside defenders run off Danny or Patty.

[dabom]

No I disagree. There's not a big difference between Gasol shooting a long two and West shooting the long two ( we are talking about that action exclusively) . No matter who it is, David or Pau, the defense would rather be late contesting that shot with the strong side defenders involved in the PnPop instead of having the weakside defenders run off Danny or Patty.

Pau is a better playoff rebounder and defender near the rum than west.

[dabom]

But on offense he is less predictable than west whose only offensive game was pick and pop.

[MaNu4Tres]

Pau is a better playoff rebounder and defender near the rum than west.

That has nothing to do with the point I was addressing.

[bklynspursfan]

And it's nice not having to deal with a ton of :lols and :lmaos

Green runs the PnP much more than the PnR, because I guess the pass-back is easier. The issue has often been that he's passed because he's stopped rather than because he's forced the defense to leave his man open. So his passes have often resulted in poor or aborted attempts. With Gasol and LMA supposedly starting, it should be easier for him to hit guys in places they can score. But he's really predictable in his passes (likes to jump and spin in the air to pass back). And that makes it a very risky result by him.

Yea, you nailed the predictable pass he does. Hopefully it's something he gets more comfortable with. Leaving your feet without knowing what you want to do is a sure way to get yanked out the game... Just needs to get more confident.


This goes back to what I was saying earlier. It would be GREAT for him -- especially individually -- for him to be able to score better off the dribble. Like, a consistent game inside the arc would probably put him in the top three or four shooting-guards in the league. If he could magically get that ability, I'd be very happy. The issue is that I don't think anyone wants Green using up not only the possessions where he would shoot a three (about seven per-36) and then add more possessions where he is creating for himself rather than letting the offense find a better shot. He'd have to be better than at least Parker at that for it to be worthwhile, and I don't consider that realistic.

Fair enough.. He just looks so uncomfortable dribbling! lol... Guys have improved their handle, and it's just like, OK if you're going to force me to put it down, I'll make you pay.



What would really help both him and the team is if he moved more without the ball, specifically in two ways. First, if he could shoot off screens, that'd be huge for the entact offense's diversity and for Green's ability to shoulder a bigger load when Kawhi is out. It's one of those things he doesn't do often and isn't great at. But I don't see why it can't improve. Second, he needs to cut to the rim more. His first year starting, the Spurs opened up damned near every game by running a Green back-door play. Bringing those back (and alley-oops) would make it even harder for his man to play off him.

If the Spurs committed to making Green a set part of the offense rather than just a contingency, he'd probably average 12-15ppg (though on worse efficiency than usual). But that's not the plan, it seems. And with Kawhi, LMA and Gasol that makes sense. Plus, Danny would have to show he could handle the load and not just fade like he has for the past four years when Pop has him start the season with a new technique.

This could def be helpful and might be the most realistic. Guys like Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton, JJ Reddick, etc... have all done this and it can be tiring to the defense. Patty Mills has a very quick release and does this pretty well in terms of guys on our team. I know Danny has a slower release, but it would def help the flow of the offense if he picked that up. Of all the discussed things, this might be the most realistic. He's already a good catch and shoot shooter, but if he could do it on the move, it would do nothing but help the team. Especially if a defender who is getting screened jumps out at him, he has the option to dump the ball back to the screener (likely a big) once he becomes respectable in that aspect.

[Chinook]

The cool thing about Mills is that the Spurs will actually run the other hammer play with him. As far as I know, he's the only Spur that gets that pass. Would be nice if Danny added that to his game.

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/3902245/Screenshot_2014-01-23_14.28.34.jpg
Too bad there aren't any vids isolating it. I've only seen it in live action.

[bklynspursfan]

^ there might be on NBA.com/stats but you'd need to know a game in which they ran it for him. Good stuff

Something like this btw? (50 second mark)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w-lNhNBisQ

[Chinook]

^ there might be on NBA.com/stats but you'd need to know a game in which they ran it for him. Good stuff

Something like this btw? (50 second mark)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w-lNhNBisQ

Nah, that's just a zipper-cut. Good idea of looking for Mills highlights, though. That'd probably be the best place to find them. I'll look too.

So to clarify, on that diagram, the first action is a zipper-cut for the two-guard. But the hammer part is what the PF does for the PG. That type of surprise run-up-behind-you hit is a hammer screen, and that's what gives the set play-type its name.

[Dex]

If Spurs can get either Patty or Green to come back to their 2014 form next season....it will go a long ways.

If both can get back on track...look out Warriors. And I don't say that lightly.

[SAGirl]

If Spurs can get either Patty or Green to come back to their 2014 form next season....it will go a long ways.

If both can get back on track...look out Warriors. And I don't say that lightly.

Agreed. Actually the warriors figure to have a lot of defensive issues inside too. Obviously they are difficult to defend themselves, but will be vulnerable in the paint, giving up dribble penetration, mismatches, offensive boards. They could under-perform considering all the hype. I tend to think with them, they got better at what they were already great at, perimeter jumpshooting, at the cost of becoming significantly worse in areas that were already vulnerable for them (mostly due to Bogut being so injury-prone). There are the diminishing returns to having so many guys with similar strengths (offensive players, jumpshooters). There will be nights they are unstoppable guys caught fire, but they also will have nights they can't stop the heck out of anybody, their bigs will get in foul trouble, etc. If they under-perform we know why.

[Chinook]

If Spurs can get either Patty or Green to come back to their 2014 form next season....it will go a long ways.

If both can get back on track...look out Warriors. And I don't say that lightly.

I'll take the Danny of the following season:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdpNT7h8Al0

Dude was a legit top-30 player in the league that year. btb, that was the most sickening loss I can remember the team having.

[G-Dawgg]

In other words, Danny Green let down Tim Duncan in his last season. By the time he gets his shot back it wont matter....

[Chinook]

In other words, Danny Green let down Tim Duncan in his last season. By the time he gets his shot back it wont matter....

Someone didn't watch last season at all...

[Dex]

I'll take the Danny of the following season:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdpNT7h8Al0

Dude was a legit top-30 player in the league that year. btb, that was the most sickening loss I can remember the team having.

Oi...Don't remind me. That was one hell of a game...but a serious shame that the Spurs came up on the wrong side after all of that. It was really a microcosm of the whole season.

[timtonymanu]

Green was one of the bright spots of Game 5. I thought he was fine in the playoffs. It was other players that let this team down.

[Chinook]

The cool thing about Mills is that the Spurs will actually run the other hammer play with him. As far as I know, he's the only Spur that gets that pass. Would be nice if Danny added that to his game.

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/3902245/Screenshot_2014-01-23_14.28.34.jpg
Too bad there aren't any vids isolating it. I've only seen it in live action.

All right bklynspursfan (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=25024) , this is the closest thing I've seen to that hammer play

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpeIur9bv9o

It's at the 25-second mark. Here's the link for the right time: https://youtu.be/MpeIur9bv9o?t=25

So you see Green passes to Parker coming off a pin-down the fades to the opposite wing to get the back screen for the shot. As the diagram showed, for it to be the actual play, Parker would have to run to the top of the key and get the pass while Danny shallow-cuts in front of him toward the hammer.

Incidentally, back when it was popular for Parker to run the Loop, people often questioned why Danny was the passer rather than Leonard or Manu. They argued that Green's lack of dribbling made it easy to blow the play up by pressuring him. This video would go a long way to explaining that. That set got him a ton of open shots. It's probably something that people aren't considering when they're talking about how Green's game suffered from the shift in offensive focus. This set is all but removed with LMA on board and Kawhi taking charge.

[Chinook]

Actually to extend on this point, The Loop was essentially the Parker play for the end of his prime. It's a perfect example of calling plays for someone but not necessarily designing the plays for that someone to get the shots. The Spurs leveraged Parker's speed and gravity to get open threes and dunks for the other four guys on the floor.

Here's another compilation of Loop plays:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxCihOz6_UU

Until the Spurs can find a way to build sets around Kawhi's strengths, he'll never have the offensive impact that Prime Parker did. Make fun of him all you want, but this is just what the Spurs did when they were at their most-recent zenith. For all the talk of Tony not passing, him being on the floor really helped with that "beautiful" game period every seems nostalgic over nowadays.

[mookie2001]

I hope he bounces back from catching passes while standing out of bounds.

[cutewizard]

If Spurs can get either Patty or Green to come back to their 2014 form next season....it will go a long ways.

If both can get back on track...look out Warriors. And I don't say that lightly.


-----------------------------------------------------

Plus Bertans!

:claw

[bklynspursfan]

Actually to extend on this point, The Loop was essentially the Parker play for the end of his prime. It's a perfect example of calling plays for someone but not necessarily designing the plays for that someone to get the shots. The Spurs leveraged Parker's speed and gravity to get open threes and dunks for the other four guys on the floor.

Here's another compilation of Loop plays:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxCihOz6_UU

Until the Spurs can find a way to build sets around Kawhi's strengths, he'll never have the offensive impact that Prime Parker did. Make fun of him all you want, but this is just what the Spurs did when they were at their most-recent zenith. For all the talk of Tony not passing, him being on the floor really helped with that "beautiful" game period every seems nostalgic over nowadays.

Thanks for sharing this & the zipper vid. Cool to watch. I feel like there was one for the hammer play too but maybe it was a broadcasting team showing it that I'm thinking of, idk...I see what you mean w/TP but not coming all the way to the top of the key, probably because it's not his strength and he does much better with the elbow jumpers. Mills has such a quick release and moves so much without the ball, maybe they can continue to run similar stuff for he and maybe Green. Should be interesting to see

And yea, TP absolutely was an integral part to the beautiful game. There's just a lot of ignorance and immaturity living on this forum.

[maverick1948]

Good article but writer forgot to look at Danny's season finish. Up to the All star break in Jan and Feb, Danny was hitting 41.8 % from 3 point land. Post all star, he dropped to 27.7 % to finish the season. I went back and looked at a few games in Mar and Apr. I did notice that he was hitting the rim but not the bottom of the net. Then after the season he had Lasix eye surgery. That plus watching his shooting at the end of the season, I think he will return to form this season.

[G-Dawgg]

Someone didn't watch last season at all...

Ok dude you're right. Danny Green had a career best shooting season then. FOH.....

[tonight...you]

Actually to extend on this point, The Loop was essentially the Parker play for the end of his prime. It's a perfect example of calling plays for someone but not necessarily designing the plays for that someone to get the shots. The Spurs leveraged Parker's speed and gravity to get open threes and dunks for the other four guys on the floor.

Here's another compilation of Loop plays:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxCihOz6_UU

Until the Spurs can find a way to build sets around Kawhi's strengths, he'll never have the offensive impact that Prime Parker did. Make fun of him all you want, but this is just what the Spurs did when they were at their most-recent zenith. For all the talk of Tony not passing, him being on the floor really helped with that "beautiful" game period every seems nostalgic over nowadays.
Great stuff brother. Thank you!

[Chinook]

Ok dude you're right. Danny Green had a career best shooting season then. FOH.....

:rolleyes

[SAGirl]

All right bklynspursfan (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=25024) , this is the closest thing I've seen to that hammer play

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpeIur9bv9o

It's at the 25-second mark. Here's the link for the right time: https://youtu.be/MpeIur9bv9o?t=25

So you see Green passes to Parker coming off a pin-down the fades to the opposite wing to get the back screen for the shot. As the diagram showed, for it to be the actual play, Parker would have to run to the top of the key and get the pass while Danny shallow-cuts in front of him toward the hammer.

Incidentally, back when it was popular for Parker to run the Loop, people often questioned why Danny was the passer rather than Leonard or Manu. They argued that Green's lack of dribbling made it easy to blow the play up by pressuring him. This video would go a long way to explaining that. That set got him a ton of open shots. It's probably something that people aren't considering when they're talking about how Green's game suffered from the shift in offensive focus. This set is all but removed with LMA on board and Kawhi taking charge.

I hadn't thought about it but they did remove plays for Danny.

I think only Mills was getting hammer plays called for him last season.

[SAGirl]

Until the Spurs can find a way to build sets around Kawhi's strengths, he'll never have the offensive impact that Prime Parker did. Make fun of him all you want, but this is just what the Spurs did when they were at their most-recent zenith. For all the talk of Tony not passing, him being on the floor really helped with that "beautiful" game period every seems nostalgic over nowadays.
Agreed in every way. It was a tricky change bc Kawhi has to develop as a playmaker and he hasn't hit his zenith in that department. The other offensive guy: LMA is a finisher of plays too, not a creator of plays for others, unless it's a post up. Hopefully they both develop more synergy with others and Kawhi continues to develop as the main offensive player. He's still young enough and hasn't been featured by Pop since he got to the league. It's not like he has 5 years experience being the guy. He really has two and his second season being featured he made a huge leap. The next step is to develop as a playmaker.

I said elsewhere: this is the season for Kawhi to prove he can be the epicenter of the offense. If he can't do it, then Spurs have to look at a star PG to pair up with him somewhere and he will have to defer to this PG and take up a role as finisher of plays, etc. But I am hoping Kawhi can take yet another step.

[dabom]

Agreed in every way. It was a tricky change bc Kawhi has to develop as a playmaker and he hasn't hit his zenith in that department. The other offensive guy: LMA is a finisher of plays too, not a creator of plays for others, unless it's a post up. Hopefully they both develop more synergy with others and Kawhi continues to develop as the main offensive player. He's still young enough and hasn't been featured by Pop since he got to the league. It's not like he has 5 years experience being the guy. He really has two and his second season being featured he made a huge leap. The next step is to develop as a playmaker.

I said elsewhere: this is the season for Kawhi to prove he can be the epicenter of the offense. If he can't do it, then Spurs have to look at a star PG to pair up with him somewhere and he will have to defer to this PG and take up a role as finisher of plays, etc. But I am hoping Kawhi can take yet another step.

He already is. WTF? :lmao

[YGWHI]

Agreed in every way. It was a tricky change bc Kawhi has to develop as a playmaker and he hasn't hit his zenith in that department.

I'm not sure if a player has to develop as a playmaker to become the epicenter of the offense or a ball-dominant player. We should remember that Kobe averaged 4.7 asts in his career...

I'm not saying that Kawhi is the type of player that Kobe was, because he was a unique offensive talent but our guy averaged 3.7 asts in OKC series, was driving more than ever before, and finished with 28 on PER.
Those numbers look like the stats of a centerpiece.

[YGWHI]

Inb4 all guys saying "but but Kobe was a loser" :cry

[tonight...you]

:rolleyes
For real. Why not just just say "Yeah, I'm just looking at stats and have no desire for context of their full game," right?

Way to go G-Dawgg showing some ass here bud. No... let me skip ahead for you:
Show me some shooting stats from him that year. That's what counts, right? Shooting stats! Over the course of a year!

Funny that you are a, kind of, recent fan to the Spurs Chinook, but you are one of the better posters of basketball content here.
Props.

[dabom]

For real. Why not just just say "Yeah, I'm just looking at stats and have no desire for context of their full game," right?

Way to go G-Dawgg (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=19208) showing some ass here bud. No... let me skip ahead for you:
Show me some shooting stats from him that year. That's what counts, right? Shooting stats! Over the course of a year!

Funny that you are a, kind of, recent fan to the Spurs Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557), but you are one of the better posters of basketball content here.
Props.
Chinook is one of the least knowledgeable people on here tbh. You should read some of the stupid shit he says around here. :lol

[dabom]

And Gfaggot is a nobody. Never heard of that guy. :lmao

[tonight...you]

Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) is one of the least knowledgeable people on here tbh. You should read some of the stupid shit he says around here. :lol
Right, or wrong, he still talks more basketball strategic content than most here. Including you, bud.
Which is interesting to read, honestly. Or we can all just read personal attacks upon each other instead... Here on a Spurs message board.

[dabom]

Right, or wrong, he still talks more basketball strategic content than most here. Including you, bud.
Which is interesting to read, honestly. Or we can all just read personal attacks upon each other instead... Here on a Spurs message board.

Right or wrong? So no one cares anymore as long as you blab about shit? Chinook never used to have any takes until I called him out on it, and he has embarrassed himself on numerous occasions after that. :lmao

[tonight...you]

Right or wrong? So no one cares anymore as long as you blab about shit? Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) never used to have any takes until I called him out on it, and he has embarrassed himself on numerous occasions after that. :lmao
"blab about shit"- that's what I dislike. You would rather talk about personal attacks? Do you deny that you don't engage in that in many of your posts? I mean, that's what you're engaging in here, right now... This is a basketball site and I like basketball talk: right, or wrong. Something about the sport I love that I can ponder, maybe debate, or flat out deny and refute.

Are you saying that you'd rather talk about people you dislike, rather than basketball on a basketball message board?

[dabom]

"blab about shit"- that's what I dislike. You would rather talk about personal attacks? Do you deny that you don't engage in that in many of your posts? I mean, that's what you're engaging in here, right now... This is a basketball site and I like basketball talk: right, or wrong. Something about the sport I love that I can ponder, maybe debate, or flat out deny and refute.

Are you saying that you'd rather talk about people you dislike, rather than basketball on a basketball message board?

It's not even preseason. What do you want to talk about that has been discussed to ad nauseum? :lol

[tonight...you]

It's not even preseason. What do you want to talk about that has been discussed to ad nauseum? :lol
Good point. Lol. The court is yours.

[SAGirl]

I'm not sure if a player has to develop as a playmaker to become the epicenter of the offense or a ball-dominant player. We should remember that Kobe averaged 4.7 asts in his career...

I'm not saying that Kawhi is the type of player that Kobe was, because he was a unique offensive talent but our guy averaged 3.7 asts in OKC series, was driving more than ever before, and finished with 28 on PER.
Those numbers look like the stats of a centerpiece.
It will be tough to win with this particular team if he doesn't develop as a playmaker IMO.

[gambit1990]

Right or wrong? So no one cares anymore as long as you blab about shit? Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) never used to have any takes until I called him out on it, and he has embarrassed himself on numerous occasions after that. :lmao
:lol

[YGWHI]

It will be tough to win with this particular team if he doesn't develop as a playmaker IMO.
Well, the only true playmaker the Spurs had in the last 15 years was on the bench.

Parker was an amazing gravitation player not because his court vision or playmaker skills, but because his speed and the scoring threat he posed.

Now, he's not that offensive player anymore. It might be time to play him like a point guard, using him to pass the ball, and let the younger guys to score.

[sasaint]

Well, the only true playmaker the Spurs had in the last 15 years was on the bench.

Parker was an amazing gravitation player not because his court vision or playmaker skills, but because his speed and the scoring threat he posed.

Now, he's not that offensive player anymore. It might be time to play him like a point guard, using him to pass the ball, and let the younger guys to score.

Except Tony has never shown much court vision. But you don't need much to pass the ball to iso-players. I really hope he is working hard on his 3-ball, so he can bring the ball up, make a pass to initiate the offense and hit a reasonable percentage of 3s.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Danny hit his shot like same old Danny in the playoffs

[Chinook]

Thinking some folks are not getting what I was saying about Parker. If you watch those vids, you can see he wasn't the assist man on a lot of those plays. What the Spurs are missing isn't a Kawhi who dominates the ball but can pass better than he can now. They are missing a system where Kawhi is dangerous enough that him existing creates the initial mismatches that lead to multiple players scoring, even if he doesn't touch the ball. That's what happened with the Loop. That Tony was in great shape at the time and could run that those screens so fast, so many times in one game put a tremendous strain on the defense. Because the opponent got so far out of position trying to make sure Tony didn't get open, there were opportunities for cuts and screens to get off-ball players good looks.

Right now, the Spurs' offense as it relates to Kawhi just doesn't have that organization. A lot of that has to do with the fact Kawhi's best two-point element is playing in the post, and that's a lot less predictable than penetration is. It's hard to run post-up oriented set plays for guys other than the post player. Sure, you have the hammer that comes from the post (the Diaw special), but that's just one play that has to be used sparingly to maintain its effectiveness. It's like the four-down Duncan era, but a not-as-good version and in a league that can handle post-up wings for the most part. The diversity relies on guys making cut-throughs and teams doubling, which as discussed before is unpredictable, as the help can come from multiple places. Of course, you also have Kawhi's three-point game, but unless they start putting in Korver-inspired sets for Leonard, that's not good enough.

I can't tell you what type of sets the Spurs can use to get that type of effect out of Kawhi. And that's the main reason why I've been apprehensive about wing-oriented offenses. They're just clunky, because the wing will either have to play like a PG or like a PF. With the Korver/Allen set excluded, wing-led offenses are only about individual talent and the mismatches that talent can create. Unless Kawhi becomes a guy who can drop 30-33ppg if the defense doesn't commit to stopping him, that system won't work as well as the systems for guys like James and Durant have.

At least there's still LMA to help balance things out.

[YGWHI]

A lot of that has to do with the fact Kawhi's best two-point element is playing in the post.
I wouldn't say that a player who had 90 percentile from every spot on the floor, has just a good post-up game.

His mid-range j is still nice, and we saw that he looked strong at driving in the OKC series.


Unless Kawhi becomes a guy who can drop 30-33ppg
Tim barely had a scoring season of more than 23.3 ppg, he had just only one in 2001 putting 25 ppg...Also, he was the best PF to ever play the game, the Spurs won 5 rings...

Not sure why the Spurs would need Kawhi to score 33 ppg.

[dabom]

30ppg. :lmao

[dabom]

Add that to the vault. :lol

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Danny hit his shot like same old Danny in the playoffs

True. He did his best Robert Horry impersonation last year.

[MaNu4Tres]

True. He did his best Robert Horry impersonation last year.

Its amazing that fans only remember the times Horry came through or only remember the 4 times he hit a big shot out of the 14 years of going deep in the playoffs with the Rockets, Lakers, Spurs. Horry was fortunate enough to play on great teams year in and year out throughout his career to give him a big enough sample size or opportunity to make a shot or play his role well for great teams. Fact is, Horry wasn't a rarity -- he was a role player just like Bowen, Green, Oberto ect.. He wasn't a clutch player because there's no such thing -- he just had unbelievable opportunity throughout his career playing on a big stage. And with him, for whatever reason, people only remember the shots he hit and forget the shots he missed or the times he played horrible.

So tired of people crowning him as some god of role players. It's about opportunity with role players.

Horry was very inconsistent during his career. Horry was invisible in 98', 99', 03' for the Lakers, 04' 06' ' 08' for the Spurs.

[bklynspursfan]

Its amazing that fans only remember the times Horry came through or only remember the 4 times he hit a big shot out of the 14 years of going deep in the playoffs with the Rockets, Lakers, Spurs. Horry was fortunate enough to play on great teams year in and year out throughout his career to give him a big enough sample size or opportunity to make a shot or play his role well for great teams. Fact is, Horry wasn't a rarity -- he was a role player just like Bowen, Green, Oberto ect.. He wasn't a clutch player because there's no such thing -- he just had unbelievable opportunity throughout his career playing on a big stage. And with him, for whatever reason, people only remember the shots he hit and forget the shots he missed or the times he played horrible.

So tired of people crowning him as some god of role players. It's about opportunity with role players.

Horry was very inconsistent during his career. Horry was invisible in 98', 99', 03' for the Lakers, 04' 06' ' 08' for the Spurs.

Def not the god of role players. But he's a guy who has shown to hit big shots in big time crunch situations. He's a guy that during his "better years" you would not think 2x about getting him the ball to take a big shot

[MaNu4Tres]

Def not the god of role players. But he's a guy who has shown to hit big shots in big time crunch situations. He's a guy that during his "better years" you would not think 2x about getting him the ball to take a big shot

He actually missed a lot of important shots in the playoffs too. No one remembers them though. Players usually shoot around their career percentages if the playoff sample size is large enough.

Clutch doesn't exist because there's no way to quantify it. Horry wasn't clutch, he hit some big shots yes, but the sample size and opportunity allowed it to materialize and everyone only remembers the times he did come through. People talk about him like he came through every opportunity -- he didn't .. not even close.

[bklynspursfan]

He actually missed a lot of important shots in the playoffs too. No one remembers them though. Players usually shoot around their career percentages if the playoff sample size is large enough.

Clutch doesn't exist because there's no way to quantify it. Horry wasn't clutch, he hit some big shots yes, but the sample size and opportunity allowed it to materialize and everyone only remembers the times he did come through. People talk about him like he came through every opportunity -- he didn't .. not even close.

Yea guys will miss shots of course. Even the greatest missed shots in crunch time. There is no "clutch" stats sure, but if it's a big game and he gets the ball to take a shot, I don't think many have an issue with it.

No one comes through on every opportunity

[SAGirl]

They are missing a system where Kawhi is dangerous enough that him existing creates the initial mismatches that lead to multiple players scoring, even if he doesn't touch the ball.

Right now, the Spurs' offense as it relates to Kawhi just doesn't have that organization. A lot of that has to do with the fact Kawhi's best two-point element is playing in the post, and that's a lot less predictable than penetration is. It's hard to run post-up oriented set plays for guys other than the post player. Sure, you have the hammer that comes from the post (the Diaw special), but that's just one play that has to be used sparingly to maintain its effectiveness. It's like the four-down Duncan era, but a not-as-good version and in a league that can handle post-up wings for the most part. The diversity relies on guys making cut-throughs and teams doubling, which as discussed before is unpredictable, as the help can come from multiple places. Of course, you also have Kawhi's three-point game, but unless they start putting in Korver-inspired sets for Leonard, that's not good enough.

I can't tell you what type of sets the Spurs can use to get that type of effect out of Kawhi. And that's the main reason why I've been apprehensive about wing-oriented offenses. They're just clunky, because the wing will either have to play like a PG or like a PF. With the Korver/Allen set excluded, wing-led offenses are only about individual talent and the mismatches that talent can create. Unless Kawhi becomes a guy who can drop 30-33ppg if the defense doesn't commit to stopping him, that system won't work as well as the systems for guys like James and Durant have.

At least there's still LMA to help balance things out.

Interesting Chinook, this post focuses really on the system. We'll just have to see what Pop has in store. Kawhi is a willing passer, and he's been developed by Pop to look for others, but he's not in the business of being purposeful and deceitful with his moves, like Diaw was for example. He doesn't go in there thinking ok if I make this move here, so and so going to be open, and then goes to it. He goes there to look for a shot for himself, which he is very good at, so I won't dispute YGWHI or some fan arguing that is good enough. But he will really get to another level of domination if he learns how to dupe defenses to do what he wants and starts making teammates better bc of it. That is some next level stuff that Lebron is capable of, but he's a HoF player.

As for Pop leveraging Kawhi, his 3s are from spotting up a lot, not the Korver kind. Maybe, Pop will involve Kawhi in more PnR, that is something that we didn't see enough of. I am sure he will still get his Kobe touches, he's good at those, but Pop will use LMA and Pau too. It's probably on how these 3 play together. Don't know what he has in store for Tony either. He's becoming an afterthought and a passive Tony doesn't help win games either.

[MaNu4Tres]

Yea guys will miss shots of course. Even the greatest missed shots in crunch time. There is no "clutch" stats sure, but if it's a big game and he gets the ball to take a shot, I don't think many have an issue with it.

No one comes through on every opportunity

Any good NBA three point shooter proven role player, I wouldn't have a problem with taking an important shot. Spurs have had big shots made by Jaren Jackson, Sean Elliott, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr, Gary Neal, Stephen Jackson, Bowen, Danny Green, the list goes on -- players are who they are. Whether they're a good three point shooter or a bad one -- it will show up in the playoffs if sample size is enough. For Horry, he had the most opportunity to play in big games than any other role player. He benefited from that and fans who don't know much like to crown him as some special clutch performer when he's failed a lot of the time.

Fact is, Horry shot 34% for his NBA career from three in 2300+ attempts. In the playoffs, Horry shot 35.9% from three in 728 attempts ( much lower volume) but the difference in percentage is insignificant. Again its just comes down to opportunity.

Horry was a solid role player, but I'm tired of people crowning him as the most clutch guy ever. They couldn't be more wrong.

[SAGirl]

Any good NBA three point shooter proven role player, I wouldn't have a problem with taking an important shot. Spurs have had big shots made by Jaren Jackson, Sean Elliott, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr, Gary Neal, Stephen Jackson, Bowen, Danny Green, the list goes on -- players are who they are. Whether they're a good three point shooter or a bad one -- it will show up in the playoffs if sample size is enough. For Horry, he had the most opportunity to play in big games than any other role player. He benefited from that and fans who don't know much like to crown him as some special clutch performer when he's failed a lot of the time.

Fact is, Horry shot 34% for his NBA career from three in 2300+ attempts. In the playoffs, Horry shot 35.9% from three in 728 attempts ( much lower volume) but the difference in percentage is insignificant. Again its just comes down to opportunity.

Horry was a solid role player, but I'm tired of people crowning him as the most clutch guy ever. They couldn't be more wrong.

Good points. All b4 my time. What is your take on Bonner?

[MaNu4Tres]

Good points. All b4 my time. What is your take on Bonner?

Great three point shooter, but he wasn't good enough overall to have an opportunity or be on the floor in huge games.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Any good NBA three point shooter proven role player, I wouldn't have a problem with taking an important shot. Spurs have had big shots made by Jaren Jackson, Sean Elliott, Mario Elie, Steve Kerr, Gary Neal, Stephen Jackson, Bowen, Danny Green, the list goes on -- players are who they are. Whether they're a good three point shooter or a bad one -- it will show up in the playoffs if sample size is enough. For Horry, he had the most opportunity to play in big games than any other role player. He benefited from that and fans who don't know much like to crown him as some special clutch performer when he's failed a lot of the time.

Fact is, Horry shot 34% for his NBA career from three in 2300+ attempts. In the playoffs, Horry shot 35.9% from three in 728 attempts ( much lower volume) but the difference in percentage is insignificant. Again its just comes down to opportunity.

Horry was a solid role player, but I'm tired of people crowning him as the most clutch guy ever. They couldn't be more wrong.


Meh...I'd still take Horry on my all-time Spurs playoff team bench, regardless of his shooting percentages. There are a lot of things that don't show up on a stat sheet.

But I do agree that the Spurs have had a lot of guys step up in key moments in the post season over the years. 2013-2014 Danny was far more of a clutch shooter than Horry ever was. I was just alluding to Danny's apparent apathy until the playoffs rolled around last year. That was what always amazed me about Horry...he never seemed to give a crap until the post season. Danny wasn't lacking in effort at any point last season, but his focus seemed to change in the playoffs.

[SAGirl]

Meh...I'd still take Horry on my all-time Spurs playoff team bench, regardless of his shooting percentages. There are a lot of things that don't show up on a stat sheet.

But I do agree that the Spurs have had a lot of guys step up in key moments in the post season over the years. 2013-2014 Danny was far more of a clutch shooter than Horry ever was. I was just alluding to Danny's apparent apathy until the playoffs rolled around last year. That was what always amazed me about Horry...he never seemed to give a crap until the post season. Danny wasn't lacking in effort at any point last season, but his focus seemed to change in the playoffs.

Diaw reminded me of Horry's fame (bc I didn't see the Horry times) bc he seemed lazy but usually turned it on in the postseason.

Last season Horry Diaw went missing but Horry Danny showed. I think Horry has become mythical and is now used by fans like me who never really saw him to describe players who you might have doubted but would show up for playoff games. I was interested in Manutres opinion about him bc I didn't see him and I would not know of that take unless someone like him shared it. Good to keep in perspective. Mills is another example. I am sure ppl will remember the finals 2014, but he had series before then that he was really off shooting and his most recent dud against OKC shows that it's indeed a streaky shooter, but you don't have doubts letting him take a 3 under some duress, bc he has as good a chance as any other good shooter to make those. I think in the playoffs, what I have liked of the Spurs is that they tend to go to the hot hand and give a chance to a guy here or there who may end up having a hell of a series and helping. Last season they didn't have enough "others" come in and help. I liked Shaq's description of the "Spurs Others" in 2014 as factors that helped in different series.

Hopefully some Spurs "others" grow up and come in and help this next season, part of the joy of watching basketball: the unknown.

[Brazil]

At the end you have players who perform equal, better or worst in POs than regular season. Horry had indeed this reputation of coasting in RS and stepping up in POs which is basically true, same for Diaw which is arguable. Coasting, defense attention, more focus, pressure... all that are parameters explaining results.

I don't know if I believe in clutch or not but if you have played enough sport you know that some just like pressure or better pressure does not influence their performance and for others pressure is a bitch making them miss what they usually convert. Horry would just deliver his usual him whether pressured or not thus calling him clutch. clutch is probably to be defined by not being worst under pressure

[Brazil]

Bonner is typical of the dude under performing in POs.... .41 at 3 pts career RS and .35 at 3 pts POs... sample is large enough and gap significant enough to be conclusive

[MaNu4Tres]

Bonner is typical of the dude under performing in POs.... .41 at 3 pts career RS and .35 at 3 pts POs... sample is large enough and gap significant enough to be conclusive

Disagree. However, Bonner would likely under perform in the playoffs because he's just not good enough to compete with the best teams' best players when it matters. However, the sample size isn't large enough. In the regular season throughout his career Bonner was able to get off 1900+ attempts and shot 41%. In the playoffs, despite playing for the Spurs for 10 years, he was only able to manage to get off 138 attempts and shot 35%. In basketball, 138 attempts is not a lot and not enough to draw end all conclusion like you're implying. By no means am I saying Bonner is a playoff performer. He's not, not because of his three point % but because he's just not good enough on either end -- he's a 10th-12th man on a contender. However, when you're just looking at the three point % in regular season vs. playoffs -- the sample is too small to draw end all conclusions.

You can't quantify clutch, it's proven because in the long run, the players are who they are and their percentages will likely reflect that as the sample size increases -- they'll regress to their career mean. There's no such thing as a " clutch" gene as Skip Bayliss says. Smarter people than you and me have written about it. It's a misused concept in sports that fascinates the average IQ fan.

There's confidence, not clutch, but most guys in at the end of big games already have that confidence -- all of them, no matter if it's in the 1st quarter or the 4th quarter. There's no special clutch gene that helps players become more productive all of a sudden because of the the time, or lack of, on the clock.

[dabom]

Bonner is and will always be a bitch in the playoffs.

[TD 21]

Horry was fortunate to play with 3 of the 4-5 greatest centers in history and the 3 greatest of the past quarter century. Granted, he was damn near a perfect compliment to them, but still.

It's funny when people claim he "bailed out" O'Neal in '02 and Duncan in '05, when in reality he was only ever in those situations primarily because of them.

[MaNu4Tres]

Horry was fortunate to play with 3 of the 4-5 greatest centers in history and the 3 greatest of the past quarter century. Granted, he was damn near a perfect compliment to them, but still.

It's funny when people claim he "bailed out" O'Neal in '02 and Duncan in '05, when in reality he was only ever in those situations primarily because of them.

It's also funny when people forget how he shit the bed in 98', 00', 03' for the Lakers and in 04', 06', 08' for the Spurs. Ups and downs, inconsistency -- even for the greatest "clutch" player ever.

[SAGirl]

783806704056082432
783800416987250688
783743515608047616

Danny getting votes of confidence from Coach and Kyle. :toast

[cutewizard]

:bobo

[sasaint]

783806704056082432
783800416987250688
783743515608047616

Danny getting votes of confidence from Coach and Kyle. :toast

LASIK. Wow. Might explain a thing or two. Thanks for sharing! :toast

[MI21]

Didn't cause any issues for him the playoffs.