MCW for Simmons? [Archive] - SpursTalk.com Forums

Kawhitstorm

10-08-2016, 10:22 PM

The Kings supposedly turned down an offer by the Bucks to swap MCW for Ben McLemore.

The Bucks, sources say, have since offered former Rookie of the Year guard Michael Carter-Williams to the Sacramento Kings in a trade proposal for Ben McLemore (http://www.espn.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/4581/son-of-weekend-dime-the-latest-in-training-camp-gossip) and will continue to probe for potential deals after the Kings rebuffed that pitch for 2013’s No. 7 overall pick.
2 days ago (http://hoopshype.com/rumor/1076814/) – via ESPN (http://www.espn.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/4581/son-of-weekend-dime-the-latest-in-training-camp-gossip)

McLemore was one of the worst players in the league last season but the Bucks are desperate for an athletic shooting guard who can knockdown an open 3 after Middleton got injured. They are starting Vaughn who is a total scrub....enter Jonathan Simmons::wow

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The Bucks have a trade exception so matching salaries won't be an issue: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=h4gytqu (Threw in JLC b/c Kidd likes lanky forwards who can't shoot::lol)

TheGreatYacht

10-08-2016, 10:27 PM

Eh, we have 3 point guards better than him. Plus, just imagine watching him and Kyle slug around the court at 2MPH :lol

Kyle for Richaun Holmes. He'd easily be the best big on the bench and he's buried in Philly's big rotation. Wouldn't take much to get
784958197304004608

or

Kyle for Kelly Oubre Jr

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1batSyh7zRU&feature=share
784387350239514624

JMarkJohns

10-08-2016, 10:27 PM

MCW is a cancer. He is useless without the ball in his hands.

That's why Bucks are scrubbing him and why the Kings are turning him down.

Kawhitstorm

10-08-2016, 10:31 PM

Eh, we have 3 point guards better than him.

Just imagine watching him and Kyle slug around the court at 2MPH :lol

Kyle for Richaun Holmes. He'd easily be the best big on the bench and he's buried in Philly's big rotation. Wouldn't take much to get

I'm not advocating for MCW to play point guard instead as a defensive stopper/slasher like Shumpert.

apalisoc_9

10-08-2016, 10:33 PM

Would take that deal in a heartbeat! But you wonder how MCW will play defensively with a shitty role offensively. He was good against GSW because he had a relevant role offensively.

Kawhitstorm

10-08-2016, 10:40 PM

Would take that deal in a heartbeat! But you wonder how MCW will play defensively with a shitty role offensively. He was good against GSW because he had a relevant role offensively.

It's not like they are gambling on an expiring contract that might cost 'em Simmons.:lol

In any case, Shumpert was basically in the same situation as MCW when he got traded to the Cavs.

YGWHI

10-08-2016, 10:41 PM

Except Danny, the Spurs don't have any guard who can play D and get minutes for that. That's why small-ball teams with strong backcourts will give them many problems

Chinook

10-08-2016, 10:44 PM

Simmons for Jerami Grant is still my go-to.

Kawhitstorm

10-08-2016, 10:49 PM

Kyle for Kelly Oubre Jr

784387350239514624

Why would they trade Oubre when he's developing on schedule or trade for Kyle when they have Porter.:downspin:

Kawhitstorm

10-08-2016, 10:50 PM

Simmons for Jerami Grant is still my go-to.

Simmons is 27 & doesn't provide veteran leadership, makes no sense for the Sixers.

SAGirl

10-08-2016, 10:59 PM

Except Danny, the Spurs don't have any guard who can play D and get minutes for that. That's why small-ball teams with strong backcourts will give them many problems

They have Garino. He impressed on defense and he's not the kind of guy to come in making mistakes all over the place. If Garino had been in camp last season, I would have picked him over J.Simms for example who was terrible. Heck Murray looks better than J.Simms did last preseason too and he's 20.

But Pop vouched for J.Simms really hard, so I feel like he will get chances for a while. Maybe he turns it around. It would be for the best, but right now it's not looking too good.

-------------------
In fact, sue me all, but I even got the impression before preseason that Pop wanted to play Kyle more as 4, but that is unlikely right now bc doing that would require to slide J.Simms to the 3, and J.Simms has been playing so poorly that Pop has gone away from that.

Maybe eventually Bertans breaks in the rotation.

SAGirl

10-08-2016, 11:02 PM

Simmons is 27 & doesn't provide veteran leadership, makes no sense for the Sixers.

Maybe they will be interested bc they might like his slashing and passing (Pop has to showcase him a little against some scrub teams though)... I saw the articles about them asking Stauskas to watch tape on Manu Ginobili, so they might like him. One never knows, maybe he will help them tank harder... :lol

SAGirl

10-08-2016, 11:04 PM

Why would they trade Oubre when he's developing on schedule or trade for Kyle when they have Porter.:downspin:

TGY just trolling, he won't propose trades that make sense. lol

YGWHI

10-08-2016, 11:11 PM

They have Garino. He impressed on defense and he's not the kind of guy to come in making mistakes all over the place. If Garino had been in camp last season, I would have picked him over J.Simms for example who was terrible. Heck Murray looks better than J.Simms did last preseason too and he's 20.

Garino and Murray didn't play that much tonight. I hope we can watch more of their games in next preseason games.

TheGreatYacht

10-08-2016, 11:13 PM

TGY just trolling, he won't propose trades that make sense. lol
Are you saying the Sixers wouldn't trade their 7th big for Kyle 2MPH Anderson?

Smh here I was thinking you were the only fan that scrub had

SAGirl

10-08-2016, 11:15 PM

Garino and Murray didn't play that much tonight. I hope we can watch more of their games in next preseason games.

Garino was DNP-coach. His agent had said he was dleague bound.

I really think the 15th spot seems to be between Laprovittola and Anthony.

(Correct me anyone who did watch the game if I am wrong on that)... Lapro bc he's a solid international player who can run an offense, Murray is a talented but very raw rook. I don't think Pop has any intention of playing him unless he needs to.

Anthony is making a case for himself bc Dedmon has been that much of a scrub.

Unfortunately this leaves Garino on the outside looking in...

Chinook

10-08-2016, 11:16 PM

Simmons is 27 & doesn't provide veteran leadership, makes no sense for the Sixers.

He'd be arguably their best two-guard. In the very least he'd be in the mix with Henderson. They're looking just cutting one of Grant or Holmes right now, so I don't think either has that much value to them.

TheGreatYacht

10-08-2016, 11:17 PM

They're looking just cutting one of Grant or Holmes right now, so I don't think either has that much value to them.
This.

SAGirl

10-08-2016, 11:18 PM

Are you saying the Sixers wouldn't trade their 7th big for Kyle 2MPH Anderson?

Smh here I was thinking you were the only fan that scrub had

I was talking about your suggestion to trade for Oubre lol

YGWHI

10-08-2016, 11:25 PM

Unfortunately this leaves Garino on the outside looking in...

And again, they don't have a guard -not named Danny Green- who can play D.

Spurtacular

10-08-2016, 11:41 PM

Never take a guy with a hyphenated name, tbh.

Spurs9

10-08-2016, 11:45 PM

Eh, we have 3 point guards better than him. Plus, just imagine watching him and Kyle slug around the court at 2MPH :lol

:lol

MaNu4Tres

10-08-2016, 11:48 PM

Kyle + Dedmon + 1st for Noel in February.

Kawhitstorm

10-08-2016, 11:55 PM

They're looking just cutting one of Grant or Holmes right now, so I don't think either has that much value to them.

If that's the case then Brett Brown MIGHT finally do PATFO solid.:toast

Kawhitstorm

10-08-2016, 11:57 PM

Kyle + Dedmon + 1st for Noel in February.

Kyle would need to have a breakout season b/c Dedmon is a scrub & they have PLENTY of bigs/picks.

SAGirl

10-09-2016, 12:46 AM

Kyle would need to have a breakout season b/c Dedmon is a scrub & they have PLENTY of bigs/picks.

And what they could use is J.Simms really.

cutewizard

10-09-2016, 01:04 AM

Bertans can play!!!!

CGD

10-09-2016, 09:07 PM

I'm very supportive of selling as high as possible on Simmons, just don't think MCW is way to go.

kobyz

10-10-2016, 05:40 AM

MCW will be great for us to have, is the player we need at pg to give us the ability to take green out of the lineup and put mills in, he also not a cancer(lol people going automatic for the mainstream assumption, he is a gamer and could be very productive in right situation...

Raven

10-10-2016, 07:17 AM

Raven

10-10-2016, 07:18 AM

Bertans can play!!!!

no

sasaint

10-10-2016, 07:47 AM

no

Most ST posters think he has real potential and is likely to be a rotational player this season. Why do you say,"no"? (Don't know why cutewizard interjected her Bertans comment in this thread, but, perhaps you could reply to me in the Bertans thread?)

SAGirl

10-10-2016, 01:14 PM

Most ST posters think he has real potential and is likely to be a rotational player this season. Why do you say,"no"? (Don't know why cutewizard (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=19861) interjected her Bertans comment in this thread, but, perhaps you could reply to me in the Bertans thread?)
I don't know what Raven meant, but ppl overreact on ST a lot. Bertans could always shoot and we knew that. The question is if he can do other things well and also, can the other bench bigs get their act together.

I think Bertans shooting can help the bench spacing issues, but I don't know if Bertans will hold up defensively to everything else he would need to do to be in the rotation. I don't forget he fouled 5 times in the Suns game, was 1-5 shooting the 3 and a traffic cone on defense, chase down blocks notwithstanding, bc I did watch that game... but hey ppl dampen my own enthusiasm all the time, so I let guys be.

TD 21

10-10-2016, 06:43 PM

The Kings supposedly turned down an offer by the Bucks to swap MCW for Ben McLemore.

McLemore was one of the worst players in the league last season but the Bucks are desperate for an athletic shooting guard who can knockdown an open 3 after Middleton got injured. They are starting Vaughn who is a total scrub....enter Jonathan Simmons::wow

The Bucks have a trade exception so matching salaries won't be an issue: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=h4gytqu (Threw in JLC b/c Kidd likes lanky forwards who can't shoot::lol)

Even if you could argue that they should, I doubt the Bucks would equate Simmons with McLemore. Rightly or wrongly, I think the latter has mostly been given the benefit of the doubt because he's been in such a toxic situation. He's also 3 and 1/2 years younger and despite the pedestrian career %, has a reputation as a legit 3-point shooter and a potential knockdown one.

Also, a Carter-Williams for Simmons trade would leave them thin at point guard on both sides of the ball, but especially defensively.

All these other trades are even more unrealistic . . .

- Spurs wouldn't trade Anderson for Holmes
- Wizards wouldn't trade Oubre Jr. for Anderson
- 76ers wouldn't trade Noel for Anderson, Dedmon, 1st
- 76ers wouldn't trade Grant or Holmes for Simmons

I know Brand is fully guaranteed and they want him around for his experience and leadership, but if Holmes maintains his strong play, it's difficult to envision them waiving him. Even if minor, you don't throw a potential asset in the garbage, especially to keep a corpse.

Kawhitstorm

10-10-2016, 07:43 PM

Even if you could argue that they should, I doubt the Bucks would equate Simmons with McLemore. Rightly or wrongly, I think the latter has mostly been given the benefit of the doubt because he's been in such a toxic situation. He's also 3 and 1/2 years younger and despite the pedestrian career %, has a reputation as a legit 3-point shooter and a potential knockdown one.

One issue you are ignoring is that they just need a temporary fill-in until Middleton returns, McLemore has a hefty qualifying offer which I don't think the Bucks would be willing to offer ala MCW. On the other hand, they can retain Simmons for cheap & use him as a backup.

As far as backup PGs, they drafted Brogdon & signed Delly to address that issue. They also have Terry as an emergency "break the glass" backup.

SAGirl

10-10-2016, 09:34 PM

I still go back and forth on J.Simms. He is definitely mistake prone even at this stage with his experience, but he is still capable of a play or two that show talent and the Spurs need the depth with Manu at 39. Ultimately I still come up about even on J.Simms.

If Manu is unavailable for whatever reason, Spurs need him. I think eventually Dijon will overtake him, but for now he's needed.

Kawhitstorm

10-10-2016, 09:38 PM

sasaint

10-10-2016, 09:39 PM

Kawhitstorm

10-10-2016, 09:41 PM

If the Spurs could move Simmons AND LJC for MCW. That would be ideal. :lol

Kidd likes athletic/lanky players, Simmons/LJC fit the bill.

sasaint

10-10-2016, 09:55 PM

Kidd likes athletic/lanky players, Simmons/LJC fit the bill.

But MCW is, too...

Perhaps the Spurs could move Simmons and LJC for MCW and a #2 - although I'd be all over the trade without a #2. Pipe dream - PATFO won't be dealing until maybe the cut deadline.

Kawhitstorm

10-10-2016, 10:20 PM

But MCW is, too...

Perhaps the Spurs could move Simmons and LJC for MCW and a #2 - although I'd be all over the trade without a #2. Pipe dream - PATFO won't be dealing until maybe the cut deadline.

MCW is one of the worst 3 point shooters in the league, Simmons shot 38% last season.

sasaint

10-10-2016, 10:25 PM

MCW is one of the worst 3 point shooters in the league, Simmons shot 38% last season.

Wait - now you're arguing against your guy? I thought the discussion was about "long and lanky".

ElNono

10-10-2016, 10:41 PM

If Jeff Van Gundy keeps pimping him in telecasts, the Spurs should definitely look to sell high, IMO.

I don't about MCW, we just drafted a PG and have like 3 other options, but see what you can get.

Kawhitstorm

10-11-2016, 12:19 AM

If Jeff Van Gundy keeps pimping him in telecasts, the Spurs should definitely look to sell high, IMO.

I don't about MCW, we just drafted a PG and have like 3 other options, but see what you can get.

Who on the team can guard a soul besides Kawhi/Danny?........Garino?

Kawhitstorm

10-11-2016, 12:21 AM

Wait - now you're arguing against your guy? I thought the discussion was about "long and lanky".

Bucks need an athletic guard who can knockdown an open 3, Spurs need a backup wing defender/slasher.

ElNono

10-11-2016, 12:34 AM

Who on the team can guard a soul besides Kawhi/Danny?........Garino?

Did MCW become a passable defender over the summer? I probably missed the memo.

Kawhitstorm

10-11-2016, 12:49 AM

Did MCW become a passable defender over the summer? I probably missed the memo.

He's as good a defender as George Hill except he's 6'6" thus not undersized against wing players such as Klay who aren't physically imposing. His best asset is actually his defense ala Shumpert.

ElNono

10-11-2016, 01:17 AM

He's as good a defender as George Hill except he's 6'6" thus not undersized against wing players such as Klay who aren't physically imposing. His best asset is actually his defense ala Shumpert.

We must have different NBA League Pass subscriptions.

YGWHI

10-11-2016, 01:39 AM

Who on the team can guard a soul besides Kawhi/Danny?........Garino?
And it's likely that Garino won't make the team...

Anyway, I hate this guy and his podcast, #11 really??
785660359742861312

Would be hard and almost a miracle to finish #3/5 with this roster but I'm a believer.
785656588161867776

SAGirl

10-11-2016, 02:27 AM

And it's likely that Garino won't make the team...

Anyway, I hate this guy and his podcast, #11 really??
785660359742861312

Would be hard and almost a miracle to finish #3/5 with this roster but I'm a believer.
785656588161867776
Wow... the pessimistic always discounting the Spurs.... I can't imagine them being 11th but they have a lot of roster turnaround and if Pop moves away from some of the guys that he has in the rotation right now it's rookies behind them, and rookies seldom impact defensively unless they are special in that end and dedicated b4 the NBA. I'd keep Garino, but if he's needed he can be picked up midseason. He will still get great coaching in Austin and a lot of playing time to boost his confidence.

kobyz

10-11-2016, 07:35 AM

I would give even two first round picks for MCW in a heartbeat... He will give us the opportunity to move Parker to six man role, move garbage Danny from being a starter... MCW/Patty/Kawhi/LMA/Gasol... Great situation for him, enough shotting to compliment him, his talent will thrive here and will give us much needed firepower to compete with golden state...

T Park

10-11-2016, 04:51 PM

TD 21

10-11-2016, 04:54 PM

One issue you are ignoring is that they just need a temporary fill-in until Middleton returns, McLemore has a hefty qualifying offer which I don't think the Bucks would be willing to offer ala MCW. On the other hand, they can retain Simmons for cheap & use him as a backup.

As far as backup PGs, they drafted Brogdon & signed Delly to address that issue. They also have Terry as an emergency "break the glass" backup.

I'm not ignoring anything. Middleton is probably not playing this season and McLemore's qualifying offer is $5.38M, which might sound pricey, but isn't unreasonable in this market. Also, if as expected Monroe opts out, they'll be at about $88M, but they'd have their rotation nearly set, with backup point guard the exception. It wouldn't be a case of needing to open up room to attempt to do something significant.

I saw that they started Brogdon and presumably had him defending the point guard in their 1st preseason game, but he's a wing offensively. Even if he can guard them, him and the corpse of Terry isn't sufficient depth.

TrainOfThought5

10-11-2016, 04:56 PM

Pull the trigger

SAGirl

10-11-2016, 06:32 PM

Examples of J.Simms defense here.
One example of Anderson's handles.
Patty makes an appearance here too. It's amazing the NBA picked so many Spurs to appear in this video TBH. One would have thought they have an agenda lol
704748213492776960

Kawhitstorm

10-11-2016, 09:56 PM

I saw that they started Brogdon and presumably had him defending the point guard in their 1st preseason game, but he's a wing offensively. Even if he can guard them, him and the corpse of Terry isn't sufficient depth.

They are obviously not too concerned about their PG depth when they are shopping MCW for a shooter.:lol

kobyz

10-12-2016, 03:12 AM

MCW over Danny green?

Stick your head in acid my fucking god.

Danny who? We need talent, not some impotent player who is so awkward as a player, can't dribble, most inconsistent shotter of all time and overrated defender, it's a gift for gsw, you can't compete with them like this at all...

HarlemHeat37

10-12-2016, 12:19 PM

I'd take him for a bench role in a vacuum, but I question his fit here, since he's absolutely useless on offense without the ball..

There's no way you could ever start him, though..he's one of the most cancerous players in recent memory(as a starter)..a PG that can't shoot(let alone arguably the worst shooter at a guard position in modern history) doesn't work in a prominent role nowadays..

HarlemHeat37

10-12-2016, 12:20 PM

MCW over Danny green?

Stick your head in acid my fucking god.
That's his shtick..he likes cancer players(loves Rudy Gay, for instance:lol)

kobyz

10-12-2016, 01:25 PM

That's his shtick..he likes cancer players(loves Rudy Gay, for instance:lol)

I was absoulutely right last year we should have traded for Rudy gay, this team should think outside the box and trying to improve cause they don't go anywhere, as we can't trade for the lebrons of the league, the only option is going after problematic player with talent and bringing him to good situation... You can Keep being demagogue and laugh like a pussy...

TD 21

10-12-2016, 05:05 PM

They are obviously not too concerned about their PG depth when they are shopping MCW for a shooter.:lol

That doesn't mean they wouldn't want a point guard back in that trade or in another one.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

10-13-2016, 12:58 AM

As I suggested back in July (and got howled at by the ST monkeys), I'd love the Spurs to trade for MCW as a low risk high reward gamble.

I really think Chip could get his shot to average, and that he could be a superb perimeter defender and a decent distributor. He's still young enough to improve.

To me, it's a no-brainer. If he doesn't work out you've lost little to nothing, if he does you've found a player in his prime. Bring us MCW!

TheGreatYacht

10-16-2016, 12:05 AM

787518643579985920

Tony snell :lmao

They definitely take fathead or Simmons then

Kawhitstorm

10-16-2016, 01:31 AM

787518643579985920

Tony snell :lmao

They definitely take fathead or Simmons then

PATFO could get an unprotected 1st rd pick from the Bucks for Simmons/Fathead if they weren't too busy resting on their laurels.:bang

SAGirl

10-16-2016, 01:51 AM

All that tells me is what we heard from Pop's own mouth.

“We need to have those guys continue to improve and be on the floor and make our bench deep,” coach Gregg Popovich said. “If you take those two out, we’re not very deep.”

They are not up for trade.

Kawhitstorm

10-16-2016, 02:40 AM

All that tells me is what we heard from Pop's own mouth.

At this point, Simmons/JLC can net MCW. (Pop said the depth would suffer if Simmons/Kyle were put in the doghouse & he went w/ a shorter rotation but MCW would be a rotation player so he's essentially replacing Simmons)

They are not up for trade.

Only 10 guys in the league are untouchable.:lol

SAGirl

10-16-2016, 03:13 AM

At this point, Simmons/JLC can net MCW. (Pop said the depth would suffer if Simmons/Kyle were put in the doghouse & he went w/ a shorter rotation but MCW would be a rotation player so he's essentially replacing Simmons)

Only 10 guys in the league are untouchable.:lol

You know Pop detests lack of continuity man and this season he's had too much roster TO and rookies for his taste. He's not going to add wrinkles by giving up on guys he's counting on b4 they have gotten a fair chance. This is Pop we are talking out, and he likes these guys, openly, publicly. Yea they could be traded in a lopsided trade that favored the Spurs heavily, but MCW ain't it.

Not opposed to trading Simmons myself. Obviously I prefer that he plays better than to trade him, bc if he was playing more in control, he would be better than anyone out there that can be had, but it seems like he can't so far. If he cannot play "solid" eventually he will find his way out, but right now it's premature.

TheGreatYacht

10-16-2016, 04:38 AM

Trade Kyle only. Three years later and he still sucks. Can't shoot, can't post up point guards, can't pass, can't defend, can't do anything.

TrainOfThought5

10-16-2016, 06:56 AM

Trade Kyle only. Three years later and he still sucks. Can't shoot, can't post up point guards, can't pass, can't defend, can't do anything.

You just named 3/4 things that Kyle is good at.

spursistan

10-16-2016, 07:15 AM

wonder if Simmons can still even fetch a second rounder after he gets to train-wreck it for the first couple months of season..

TheDoctor

10-16-2016, 09:28 AM

...This is Pop we are talking out, and he likes these guys, openly, publicly...

George Hill says hi.

TrainOfThought5

10-16-2016, 10:28 AM

George Hill says hi.

That was for Kawhi Leonard (and Bertans). Definitely the exception and not the rule.

Joseph Kony

10-16-2016, 10:56 AM

787518643579985920

Tony snell :lmao

They definitely take fathead or Simmons then

jesus, the Bulls are trying to create the worst shooting roster in the history of the NBA

james evans

10-16-2016, 11:26 AM

dammnit man. Can we please get someone that we NEED that isn't 30 years old yet?

gambit1990

10-16-2016, 01:06 PM

They are not up for trade.
:lol

you don't know that.

the spurs will field and make calls, like they do every season. it's literally their job.

SAGirl

10-16-2016, 02:37 PM

You just named 3/4 things that Kyle is good at.
This thread is about Simmons too. Rent free in TGY thread...

Seventyniner

10-16-2016, 04:36 PM

I think Simmons is useful as a Belinelli lite, sponges some regular season minutes to keep Manu and Tony fresh but shouldn't be near the floor past the 1st round of the playoffs.

Robz4000

10-16-2016, 05:00 PM

Trade was completed, so there goes that pipe dream.

SAGirl

10-16-2016, 05:03 PM

jesus, the Bulls are trying to create the worst shooting roster in the history of the NBA

It makes me wonder if they are tanking. At some point I guess they will trade Jimmy Butler. They brought D'wade to take Jimmy's spot after that trade, and to mentor all of their youngsters. Wild guess.

SAGirl

10-16-2016, 05:03 PM

Trade was completed, so there goes that pipe dream.

:tu

YGWHI

10-16-2016, 08:19 PM

dammnit man. Can we please get someone that we NEED that isn't 30 years old yet?

:tu

TD 21

10-16-2016, 09:06 PM

At this point, Simmons/JLC can net MCW. (Pop said the depth would suffer if Simmons/Kyle were put in the doghouse & he went w/ a shorter rotation but MCW would be a rotation player so he's essentially replacing Simmons)

They more than likely would have preferred Snell, but unless they have another trade in the offing (Vaughn?), it looks like you were right about them not being concerned with their lack of point guard depth. They should be though.

SAGirl

10-16-2016, 09:53 PM

wonder if Simmons can still even fetch a second rounder after he gets to train-wreck it for the first couple months of season..

Have to give you props, I think you are being sincere in this thought, but a mental image popped in my head:

The J.Simms train:

https://media.giphy.com/media/WjaCIBz3zlMR2/giphy-downsized-large.gif