Preseason Game Thread: Spurs @ Pistons: 10/10/16 @ 6:30 PM CT

[SAGirl]

Is Boban injured, tbh? Was surprised he didn't play even with Morris fouling out in like 3 mins.

No word about that.

[SAGirl]

Dedmon looks like he spent the off-season on the couch, not doing anything -- even eating.

He played limited minutes, and you can see the guy grabbing his knees during most deadballs. His legs aren't close to being in shape as his feet are getting beat to spots on the defensive end and he's having to grab, push, pull or foul to play defense.

He's been disappointing from what I've seen.

I'd try to package Kyle + Dedmon (when they can) and a 1st for Noel.

Not going to happen dude. Philly would turn it down in a Jiffy.

[tonight...you]

I don't think they have been hard on him on offense previously, but they need to. Previously it was playing defense and being solid that got him in the door and that was all he talked about. Now it's got to be other things too. Pop holds all the keys and needs to get on him about that. That is more easily fixable than other things.
So... are you saying the Spurs have been "coddling" Kyle and encouraging his "style" of play within the coaching staff? Not getting tough on him and forging his iron into something harder? Or has that been happening and his iron is not hardening with the tempering?

[sasaint]

Kyle needs a shrink and a giant injection of testosterone before he can make anything of himself in the NBA. He's already got too long of a leash from the most patient coach in the league.
Sometimes that patience works, but it's obvious for say, like Simmons. He done, baybay. Unfortunately Kyle is one season behind him.

I'd advocate the testosterone for sure and possibly the shrink. But I think Kyle has until December/January to show that he belongs. I'm talking about he needs to show that he is a solid sixth man/occasional starter or the Spurs need to find one ASAP. Manu is on his last legs as a solid sixth man/occasional starter.

[SAGirl]

So... are you saying the Spurs have been "coddling" Kyle and encouraging his "style" of play within the coaching staff? Not getting tough on him and forging his iron into something harder? Or has that been happening and his iron is not hardening with the tempering?

No I just think offense hasn't been a focus.
They have benched him for defensive lapses and stressed that attention to defense was what would get him playing time. They were never strict about offense, as long as he didn't TO the ball, fouled people or made silly mistakes. At this point, they need more from him though and just being solid isn't enough don't you agree?

I am actually in favor of putting the pressure on him on that end. It wasn't on him previously to preduce offensively and I don't think Spurs place that burden on new players generally, but they need to now.

[ElNono]

Not going to happen dude. Philly would turn it down in a Jiffy.

why? doesn't Kyle project to be star talent in the near future?

[Kawhitstorm]

I agree with you on this one storm... I am partial to Garino and he can shoot if he's open, he's not a total non shooter like Roberson. He's my pick out of the lot.

Still so many looks Forbes has gotten, so I think Spurs are serious about considering him, and he really only hit shots this game. The prior two he was nowhere to be found.

From what I've read, Garino is D-League bound unless he's shown enough to be a rotation player THIS season.

[sasaint]

Not going to happen dude. Philly would turn it down in a Jiffy.

I guess I would do it if I am the Spurs... But I honestly don't understand the ST obsession with Okafor/Noel. They are both very one-dimensional. Frankly, I might rather try to pry Holmes from them or even Embiid and roll the dice on him and his injury problems.

[tonight...you]

No I just think offense hasn't been a focus.
They have benched him for defensive lapses and stressed that attention to defense was what would get him playing time. They were never strict about offense, as long as he didn't TO the ball, fouled people or made silly mistakes. At this point, they need more from him though and just being solid isn't enough don't you agree?

I am actually in favor of putting the pressure on him on that end. It wasn't on him previously to preduce offensively and I don't think Spurs place that burden on new players generally, but they need to now.
Pop knows that they absolutely need his offense and he's failed so far. Pop said Point Guard for this guy? Pop is trying to put this guy in positions. he's failing right now. God, how I want him to step up... He hasn't yet.

[Russ]

I'd try to package Kyle + Dedmon (when they can) and a 1st for Noel.

You'd get Exec of the Year for that one.

[apalisoc_9]

why? doesn't Kyle project to be star talent in the near future?

:lol

[gambit1990]

tbh, it's too bad the spurs couldn't get andrew bogut.

[gambit1990]

in addition to pau.

[ElNono]

No I just think offense hasn't been a focus.
They have benched him for defensive lapses and stressed that attention to defense was what would get him playing time. They were never strict about offense, as long as he didn't TO the ball, fouled people or made silly mistakes. At this point, they need more from him though and just being solid isn't enough don't you agree?

I am actually in favor of putting the pressure on him on that end. It wasn't on him previously to preduce offensively and I don't think Spurs place that burden on new players generally, but they need to now.

The problem is that his offense needs to be more than just put the ball on the floor, try to shake my guy and shoot over him while everybody else is staring at him. And it's not like he didn't get chances to do more than that.

There's centrally two problems with his offense right now, IMO:

1) If you're going to stay in a corner to space the floor, then when the ball swings to you wide-open, you need to take the shot, not put the ball on the floor and stall the offense, passing up a great look.

2) This is the NBA, he needs to know how to play off the ball. Read the defense and make a cut sometimes. Be active setting solid screens to open a teammate. You can have a big impact without having the ball in your hands.

When he's out there with LMA, Kawhi, he's probably not going to get his number called, but he still can have an impact doing the little things.

Maybe it's just the preseason, but his activity level is just meh... like I said previously, sometimes I had to double check to notice he was out there.

[gambit1990]

lotta free agents next summer. parker's contract will still be on the books though.

[sasaint]

The problem is that his offense needs to be more than just put the ball on the floor, try to shake my guy and shoot over him while everybody else is staring at him. And it's not like he didn't get chances to do more than that.

There's centrally two problems with his offense right now, IMO:

1) If you're going to stay in a corner to space the floor, then when the ball swings to you wide-open, you need to take the shot, not put the ball on the floor and stall the offense, passing up a great look.

2) This is the NBA, he needs to know how to play off the ball. Read the defense and make a cut sometimes. Be active setting solid screens to open a teammate. You can have a big impact without having the ball in your hands.

When he's out there with LMA, Kawhi, he's probably not going to get his number called, but he still can have an impact doing the little things.

Maybe it's just the preseason, but his activity level is just meh... like I said previously, sometimes I had to double check to notice he was out there.

I have been in Kyle's corner from the beginning, and I give him until December/January to make good. Your first point is one that even his supporters acknowledge, but your second point is probably a greater indictment against him. If he can't move without the ball, getting and making shots without the ball in his hands, then he probably will have to play in China.

[SAGirl]

The problem is that his offense needs to be more than just put the ball on the floor, try to shake my guy and shoot over him while everybody else is staring at him. And it's not like he didn't get chances to do more than that.

There's centrally two problems with his offense right now, IMO:

1) If you're going to stay in a corner to space the floor, then when the ball swings to you wide-open, you need to take the shot, not put the ball on the floor and stall the offense, passing up a great look.

2) This is the NBA, he needs to know how to play off the ball. Read the defense and make a cut sometimes. Be active setting solid screens to open a teammate. You can have a big impact without having the ball in your hands.

When he's out there with LMA, Kawhi, he's probably not going to get his number called, but he still can have an impact doing the little things.

Maybe it's just the preseason, but his activity level is just meh... like I said previously, sometimes I had to double check to notice he was out there.

1.) That is true.
2.) It's messy and not all on him right now, although the shitting is on him and that is fine. The bench plays two bigs who don't shoot at all and it's a mess bc of that. There won't be cuts or other actions available with them for perimeter players IMO, unless the cutter we are talking about is one of them bigs. We have to pay attention to what they are doing bc really it's going to be difficult for any perimeter players get into the paint with them there, be that on drives or cuts. (correct and edit on this: there were cuts but they ended up in someone getting into the paint with two shot blockers nearby, there were not quality looks for anyone) I saw ginobili on a PnR get all the way into the paint for example to be met by 3 defenders, his own and the other two guys, he missed no surprise. I saw Dijon, who absolutely no one is accusing of being slow, wanting to get into the paint, get in there eventually with his quick step, only have to put up one of his weird floaters for the same reason: defense was there and it was a clog.

It is going to be a mess with two non shooting bigs IMO. Kyle only makes that worse I agree. But there is really not much they can do with that twosome they have for bigs. It's a general problem they have. For that particular system a guy like Bertans might be better overall. Maybe that puts the pressure on Kyle to shoot the 3, but is that really all he can do?

I expect hopefully he will individually be better, but really I have to question Pop too and what they are running. I think the pressure should be on Kyle to shoot the 3 and Lee to be aggressive with the midrange shot as well. It's the only way it will work for everyone. If Lee wants to play strictly in the paint then Pop is effectively playing 2 centers.

[sasaint]

1.) That is true.
2.) It's messy and not all on him right now, although the shitting is on him and that is fine. The bench plays two bigs who don't shoot at all and it's a mess bc of that. There won't be cuts or other actions available with them for perimeter players IMO, unless the cutter we are talking about is one of them bigs. We have to pay attention to what they are doing bc really it's going to be difficult for any perimeter players get into the paint with them there, be that on drives or cuts. I saw ginobili on a PnR get all the way into the paint for example to be met by 3 defenders, his own and the other two guys, he missed no surprise. I saw Dijon, who absolutely no one is accusing of being slow, wanting to get into the paint, get in there eventually with his quick step, only have to put up one of his weird floaters for the same reason: defense was there and it was a clog.

It is going to be a mess with two non shooting bigs IMO. Kyle only makes that worse I agree. But there is really not much they can do with that twosome they have for bigs. It's a general problem they have. Of course Kyle makes it worse with his own reluctance to shoot. I agree with others, for that particular system a guy like Bertans might be better overall. Maybe that puts the pressure on Kyle to shoot the 3, but is that really all he can do?

I expect hopefully he will individually be better, but really I have to question Pop too and what they are running. I think the pressure should be on Kyle to shoot the 3 and Lee to be aggressive with the midrange shot as well. It's the only way it will work for everyone. If Lee wants to play strictly in the paint then Pop is effectively playing 2 centers.

I have to call you on #2. Your examples of Manu and Dijon are examples of guys driving to the hole with the ball (obviously). What Kyle has to learn is how to move without the ball - setting screens and also using them to get open. Danny is the example there - not Manu or Dijon. You are right about the two non-jump-shooting bigs creating a traffic jam, but that's even more reason for Kyle to be able to use them for screens to get open and then take the shot. And yes, Lee has to take a few of his old elbow jumpers.

[GSH]

The problem is that his offense needs to be more than just put the ball on the floor, try to shake my guy and shoot over him while everybody else is staring at him. And it's not like he didn't get chances to do more than that.

There's centrally two problems with his offense right now, IMO:

1) If you're going to stay in a corner to space the floor, then when the ball swings to you wide-open, you need to take the shot, not put the ball on the floor and stall the offense, passing up a great look.

2) This is the NBA, he needs to know how to play off the ball. Read the defense and make a cut sometimes. Be active setting solid screens to open a teammate. You can have a big impact without having the ball in your hands.

When he's out there with LMA, Kawhi, he's probably not going to get his number called, but he still can have an impact doing the little things.

Maybe it's just the preseason, but his activity level is just meh... like I said previously, sometimes I had to double check to notice he was out there.

Some truth bombs in there. Honestly, most of the players need to have their asses chewed about off the ball play - especially making good, hard cuts and setting actual screens and not just stopping in the general area.

[sasaint]

The problem is that his offense needs to be more than just put the ball on the floor, try to shake my guy and shoot over him while everybody else is staring at him. And it's not like he didn't get chances to do more than that.

There's centrally two problems with his offense right now, IMO:

1) If you're going to stay in a corner to space the floor, then when the ball swings to you wide-open, you need to take the shot, not put the ball on the floor and stall the offense, passing up a great look.

2) This is the NBA, he needs to know how to play off the ball. Read the defense and make a cut sometimes. Be active setting solid screens to open a teammate. You can have a big impact without having the ball in your hands.

When he's out there with LMA, Kawhi, he's probably not going to get his number called, but he still can have an impact doing the little things.

Maybe it's just the preseason, but his activity level is just meh... like I said previously, sometimes I had to double check to notice he was out there.

:toast You just gave me a serious personal deja vu moment there. That's EXACTLY what my dad used to tell me when I would be all mopey after a game when I got minimal touches. Of course, I was in Junior High at the time! Probably a lesson that Kyle is a little late in learning. :lol

[MaNu4Tres]

You'd get Exec of the Year for that one.

Id offer doesnt mean I think theyd accept.

It means, Id offer.

Id have Anderson & Simmons on the trade market all season.

[SAGirl]

I have to call you on #2. Your examples of Manu and Dijon are examples of guys driving to the hole with the ball (obviously). What Kyle has to learn is how to move without the ball - setting screens and also using them to get open. Danny is the example there - not Manu or Dijon. You are right about the two non-jump-shooting bigs creating a traffic jam, but that's even more reason for Kyle to be able to use them for screens to get open and then take the shot. And yes, Lee has to take a few of his old elbow jumpers.

He is allowed to make plays with the ball though. If he wasn't, he wouldn't. He's not a strict spot up shooter like Danny or Bertans. If you take that from him then you are turning him into something he's not (and ppl still want Danny to put the ball on the floor, so you see how fans are never happy).

He does set screens for others, but there is little screening possible with that system that ends up in good looks, except the one I saw where a wing screens for someone to get a 3 if someone posting up has the ball and I saw him both cut and screen. I really didn't see much screening from any wings really that resulted in good looks--->playing with Dedmon and Lee. Did you? Bc it's obviously different with Gasol and LMA.

[sasaint]

He is allowed to make plays with the ball though. If he wasn't, he wouldn't. He's not a strict spot up shooter like Danny or Bertans. If you take that from him then you are turning him into something he's not (and ppl still want Danny to put the ball on the floor, so you see how fans are never happy).

He does set screens for others, but there is little screening possible with that system, except the one I saw where a wing screens for someone to get a 3 if someone posting up has the ball. I really didn't see much screening from any wings really--->playing with Dedmon and Lee. Did you? I saw some like the one I mentioned (JSimms did it once for example), but other than that there wasn't anybody cutting. Did you see that from anybody playing with both Dedmon and Lee? Bc it's obviously different with Gasol and LMA.

All that may be true, but it is a different discussion than the #2 point brought up by ElNono. There wasn't a lot of screen setting last season, either. ISO-ball really doesn't rely on that.

[YGWHI]

The Pistons came back when Kawhi was trying to playmake. Maybe that will change if he calms down on that Manu passes and keeps it more simple, but it didn't look good. Looked better when he wasn't passing

He made two bad passes, but we can't act like Parker never made a bad pass.

However, I was talking about him being aggressive at scoring.
With Parker on the court, most offense are Parker/LMA P&Rs, a really good stuff, but you can't put Kawhi parking in the corner during 6 minutes a quarter while Parker does the things.

Kawhi took his first shot tonight, after almost 4 minutes when all starters take one or two, but when Pop sat Parker, Kawhi was looking at the rim a lot, like he did in the game in Phoenix.

If someone wants to develop Kawhi driving or any other aspect of his offensive game, can't wait until sitting the PG starting to do it.

Or Pop finds a way to involve more Kawhi with Parker, or this thing will be the same in playoffs.

Kawhi being the most effective player in a game but Parker trying to close it running P&Rs, even when he can't do it anymore against elite teams.

[tonight...you]

He is allowed to make plays with the ball though. If he wasn't, he wouldn't. He's not a strict spot up shooter like Danny or Bertans. If you take that from him then you are turning him into something he's not (and ppl still want Danny to put the ball on the floor, so you see how fans are never happy).

He does set screens for others, but there is little screening possible with that system, except the one I saw where a wing screens for someone to get a 3 if someone posting up has the ball. I really didn't see much screening from any wings really--->playing with Dedmon and Lee. Did you? I saw some like the one I mentioned (JSimms did it once for example), but other than that there wasn't anybody cutting. Did you see that from anybody playing with both Dedmon and Lee? Bc it's obviously different with Gasol and LMA.
That's the problem: he has the greenlight and treats it like a yellow, about to turn red.

Take the blinders off, Kyle! Shoot when you have the shot! Then make a play!
He keeps trying to make a play when he has the shot. That is his fundamental problem and he is not doing anything about it.

[Hoops Czar]

Id offer doesnt mean I think theyd accept.

It means, Id offer.

Id have Anderson & Simmons on the trade market all season.

Dude, Simmons is a scrub. The best the Spurs could do with him is use him as a filler in a trade. They should just cut him loose. And Anderson isn't going to be traded anytime soon.

[tonight...you]

Dude, Simmons is a scrub. The best the Spurs could do with him is use him as a filler in a trade. They should just cut him loose. And Anderson isn't going to be traded anytime soon.
True. Simmons value is around the same as one of those Argie scrubs we're trotting out there, this preseason. Nothing. Just cut the guv, and focus on Murray's development, from here on, in his place.
Fuck that waste of effort.

[SAGirl]

That's the problem: he has the greenlight and treats it like a yellow, about to turn red.

Take the blinders off, Kyle! Shoot when you have the shot! Then make a play!
He keeps trying to make a play when he has the shot. That is his fundamental problem and he is not doing anything about it.
Really I am not cutting him slack for not shooting. Needs to. I support Pop playing Bertans, whatever will get him to start chucking the 3. I don't even think Pop cares about makes right now. Case in point Dijon, career 29% from 3 in college from a shorter 3 pt line, one make, one airball. Could live with that from Kyle. Heck Danny 33% last season. Needs to shoot even if he starts off.

Also, teammates have to get on his ass about it. Talk about leadership, cases like this is where it's needed.

[gambit1990]

too bad manu isn't younger... line up could be patty/manu/kawhi. parker could get his shots up playing with the second unit.

[MaNu4Tres]

Dude, Simmons is a scrub. The best the Spurs could do with him is use him as a filler in a trade. They should just cut him loose. And Anderson isn't going to be traded anytime soon.

The most they could get for him straight up us a 2nd rounder. Hed be a filler for anything more.

[SAGirl]

All that may be true, but it is a different discussion than the #2 point brought up by ElNono (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=8054). There wasn't a lot of screen setting last season, either. ISO-ball really doesn't rely on that.
My point really is that we have to observe what they are running with Lee and Dedmon. I didn't see any screen setting or cutting by anyone (that resulted in good looks bc the bigs camped the paint).

I saw both Kyle and Lee pass up respective good shots. No excuses for Kyle but also none for Lee. Not only that, good drives by perimeter players were snuffed, that's why I brought up perimeter players other than him who experienced similar problems. I doubt cuts are there either with both bigs. POP is going to have to do something about them or will be worse than last season.

My hope is that Pop will address it somehow. The part is on him---> :pop:

[gambit1990]

i'm less high on simmons.

wizards interested in giving up gortat? if wall and beal are still having a problem with each other, maybe they'd be looking for a new pg...

[szkorhetz]

You'd get Exec of the Year for that one.
And Philly would just answer. "LOL, no."

[raybies]

Some thoughts about the game...

Anyways I think there is a lot of over reacting going on in here. I'm not gonna write an article or anything, but here we go.

I like to evaluate on this criteria:

Quality of shots
Quality of teamwork

For point A, I thought we had a lot of good looks. You can't say a guy can't cut it cause he missed shots. If they were good looks than it's ok if it's a miss. Of course you want them to go in but the fact of the matter is they don't all the time and this is preseason so percentages are typically down due to various reasons.

For point B, I liked the ball movement and selflessness tonight. There were a lot of good to great shots and I think Kawhi lead by example beautifully, case in point the pass to LMA where he wasn't looking for it. I hope it sets a tone for the season.

Kyle: I thought he played a solid game overall. He defended well, he took good shots, he made some plays. I know we want him to shoot the three but he needs time for that and unless he's wide open he's not going to force it. If he collapses the defense and makes a nice pass for a good shot that's ok too. I don't know what y'all expect. He's not a sniper. If he can hit an open one than yes thats perfect but expecting him to shoot a quick release shot on a solid closeout is not suited for him. I liked his passes. Y'all wanting him to score more and look for his shot more need to realize that he's not that high on the totem pole. He's never higher than 4th option imo with starters and bench. His role imo is to be someone who initiates the ball movement. I don't think it's an accident that he drives on closeouts. I'm suggesting that it's designed that way. If he has a look than take it, etc.

Simmons: For the people that is saying he's trash, you're missing it. Tonight he showed improvement from last season. He was under control almost exclusively. Last year he put his head down and went straight for the rim. Tonight he drove and kicked. He also has that pull up that he's been working on since summer league. He had one shot that was ugly but he got the ball back. He's not pretty but he can be effective. I haven't seen much of the preseason but this is what I've seen.

Final roster spot:
It seems we have a bunch of specialists vying for the last spot and it's easy to make a case for almost all of them, except Arci, and Laprivotola? imo. Bryn is a sniper from three and you can play him alongside any playmaker; could make great depth on the bench for Patty. Pato could be the next 3 and D find and could prove very valuable against the Warriors. He could play 3 positions on D vs small ball lineups. In regular lineups he's like a 2/3. Joel Anthony provides some depth at center with the poor play by Dedmon.

Tony/Patty/Murray
Green/Manu/Simmons
Kawhi/Kyle/Bertans
LMA/Lee/Livio
Gasol/Dedmon

On paper another 5 would be great, but I'm getting a little attached to Bryn and Pato. I wish we could keep them both. I think they could become assets. With how Pop has talked about Simmons, I doubt he drops him so we have space for one. As you can tell I'm high on both. I even like Joel too. If I had to take one, I believe the wisest decision would be Pato. Just because we have a lot of depth at the PG/SG spot and we lack solid backup defender after Danny and Kawhi. I think one of our strengths is our ability to put top defenders on both wing positions and I'm not sure i can confidently say Kyle is solid at the least. His d is a little gimmicky and relys on his length. Pato has solid fundamentals and he can stretch the floor. I just don't think our ability to out score a team is gonna be the primary focus. It's not how we are built. I could be wrong though. I think making life difficult and punishing teams with our size is the play and I think Pato fits that style more. Plus I think he's Pops kind of guy; blue collar, outspoken, etc. Bryn theoretically can only cover Patty's spot while Pato can cover more, just depending on who you plug him with. With that said, another Neal with a better head on the shoulders is very enticing and would make our offense more explosive. We'll see. Can't wait for the scrimmage.

[SAGirl]

Some thoughts about the game...

Anyways I think there is a lot of over reacting going on in here. I'm not gonna write an article or anything, but here we go.

I like to evaluate on this criteria:

Quality of shots
Quality of teamwork

For point A, I thought we had a lot of good looks. You can't say a guy can't cut it cause he missed shots. If they were good looks than it's ok if it's a miss. Of course you want them to go in but the fact of the matter is they don't all the time and this is preseason so percentages are typically down due to various reasons.

For point B, I liked the ball movement and selflessness tonight. There were a lot of good to great shots and I think Kawhi lead by example beautifully, case in point the pass to LMA where he wasn't looking for it. I hope it sets a tone for the season.

Kyle: I thought he played a solid game overall. He defended well, he took good shots, he made some plays. I know we want him to shoot the three but he needs time for that and unless he's wide open he's not going to force it. If he collapses the defense and makes a nice pass for a good shot that's ok too. I don't know what y'all expect. He's not a sniper. If he can hit an open one than yes thats perfect but expecting him to shoot a quick release shot on a solid closeout is not suited for him. I liked his passes. Y'all wanting him to score more and look for his shot more need to realize that he's not that high on the totem pole. He's never higher than 4th option imo with starters and bench. His role imo is to be someone who initiates the ball movement. I don't think it's an accident that he drives on closeouts. I'm suggesting that it's designed that way. If he has a look than take it, etc.

Simmons: For the people that is saying he's trash, you're missing it. Tonight he showed improvement from last season. He was under control almost exclusively. Last year he put his head down and went straight for the rim. Tonight he drove and kicked. He also has that pull up that he's been working on since summer league. He had one shot that was ugly but he got the ball back. He's not pretty but he can be effective. I haven't seen much of the preseason but this is what I've seen.

Final roster spot:
It seems we have a bunch of specialists vying for the last spot and it's easy to make a case for almost all of them, except Arci, and Laprivotola? imo. Bryn is a sniper from three and you can play him alongside any playmaker; could make great depth on the bench for Patty. Pato could be the next 3 and D find and could prove very valuable against the Warriors. He could play 3 positions on D vs small ball lineups. In regular lineups he's like a 2/3. Joel Anthony provides some depth at center with the poor play by Dedmon.

Tony/Patty/Murray
Green/Manu/Simmons
Kawhi/Kyle/Bertans
LMA/Lee/Livio
Gasol/Dedmon

On paper another 5 would be great, but I'm getting a little attached to Bryn and Pato. I wish we could keep them both. I think they could become assets. With how Pop has talked about Simmons, I doubt he drops him so we have space for one. As you can tell I'm high on both. I even like Joel too. If I had to take one, I believe the wisest decision would be Pato. Just because we have a lot of depth at the PG/SG spot and we lack solid backup defender after Danny and Kawhi. I think one of our strengths is our ability to put top defenders on both wing positions and I'm not sure i can confidently say Kyle is solid at the least. His d is a little gimmicky and relys on his length. Pato has solid fundamentals and he can stretch the floor. I just don't think our ability to out score a team is gonna be the primary focus. It's not how we are built. I could be wrong though. I think making life difficult and punishing teams with our size is the play and I think Pato fits that style more. Plus I think he's Pops kind of guy; blue collar, outspoken, etc. Bryn theoretically can only cover Patty's spot while Pato can cover more, just depending on who you plug him with. With that said, another Neal with a better head on the shoulders is very enticing and would make our offense more explosive. We'll see. Can't wait for the scrimmage.
Thanks for the review if anything bc it's less biased than ppls agendas here. Kyle was closed out aggressively on his 3, he wasn't ignored or dared to shoot. I still want him to shoot when he has a chance. One was more aggressively closed out by Leuer who is a big that could get to his shot. I didn't think that was a good shot by him. There was another one he could have shot but didn't. He needed to shoot that one.

He drove but I thought same as you, it's allowed for him. He missed a floater in the paint he can normally make, other two misses were end of the shot clock jumpshots under duress.

Ppl here want Danny to drive, the Kyle to refrain from putting the ball on the floor. I brought up Manu and Dijon getting to the hoop to be met by rim protectors and missing to place Kyle's drives in perspective. In fact over the past couple of game everyone playing with Lee/Ddmon has been met by defenses and their percentages in the paint are not good.

I still stand by the spacing problems the bench has and for the long haul I don't know if they will work as they are. I liked Lee's activity level, and he finished some nice plays, but he really plays like a center offensively and with Dedmon there it's two guys to help up off. I fear it's one if those problems that will persist through the season. I don't think they would be better without Lee, but 2 non shooting bigs is too much. I think they deal with Dedmon however they can. He looked better this game, but he didn't play much, didn't score and Pop took a long look at Bertans, so I think Pop is looking around.

Agreed with everything else. I am truly not high on J.Simms at all, but also not a low as others are. I think he's serviceable for what the team needs but I really like Garino more than him, higher BIBIQ, true dedication to defense, room for growth as he's 23. Kind of sad if he gets cut that I got attached to him.

FOrbes was off all other games but he can shoot occasionally. He's a liability on defense bug time. I think he's a worthy pick up based on him being a sniper, for depth, but I still like Garino more.

The good news is that the team won this game and the starters were magnificent playing the team game. Kawhi's really has MVP this season if the team is good. He's taken the next step which was leadership and playmaking. He is probably the most complete player in the league outside LeBron and he going to push harder than LeBron bc he's younger. Hopefully everyone s healthy and have good seasons.

[ceperez]

Some thoughts about the game...

Anyways I think there is a lot of over reacting going on in here. I'm not gonna write an article or anything, but here we go.

I like to evaluate on this criteria:

Quality of shots
Quality of teamwork

For point A, I thought we had a lot of good looks. You can't say a guy can't cut it cause he missed shots. If they were good looks than it's ok if it's a miss. Of course you want them to go in but the fact of the matter is they don't all the time and this is preseason so percentages are typically down due to various reasons.

For point B, I liked the ball movement and selflessness tonight. There were a lot of good to great shots and I think Kawhi lead by example beautifully, case in point the pass to LMA where he wasn't looking for it. I hope it sets a tone for the season.

Kyle: I thought he played a solid game overall. He defended well, he took good shots, he made some plays. I know we want him to shoot the three but he needs time for that and unless he's wide open he's not going to force it. If he collapses the defense and makes a nice pass for a good shot that's ok too. I don't know what y'all expect. He's not a sniper. If he can hit an open one than yes thats perfect but expecting him to shoot a quick release shot on a solid closeout is not suited for him. I liked his passes. Y'all wanting him to score more and look for his shot more need to realize that he's not that high on the totem pole. He's never higher than 4th option imo with starters and bench. His role imo is to be someone who initiates the ball movement. I don't think it's an accident that he drives on closeouts. I'm suggesting that it's designed that way. If he has a look than take it, etc.

Simmons: For the people that is saying he's trash, you're missing it. Tonight he showed improvement from last season. He was under control almost exclusively. Last year he put his head down and went straight for the rim. Tonight he drove and kicked. He also has that pull up that he's been working on since summer league. He had one shot that was ugly but he got the ball back. He's not pretty but he can be effective. I haven't seen much of the preseason but this is what I've seen.

Final roster spot:
It seems we have a bunch of specialists vying for the last spot and it's easy to make a case for almost all of them, except Arci, and Laprivotola? imo. Bryn is a sniper from three and you can play him alongside any playmaker; could make great depth on the bench for Patty. Pato could be the next 3 and D find and could prove very valuable against the Warriors. He could play 3 positions on D vs small ball lineups. In regular lineups he's like a 2/3. Joel Anthony provides some depth at center with the poor play by Dedmon.

Tony/Patty/Murray
Green/Manu/Simmons
Kawhi/Kyle/Bertans
LMA/Lee/Livio
Gasol/Dedmon

On paper another 5 would be great, but I'm getting a little attached to Bryn and Pato. I wish we could keep them both. I think they could become assets. With how Pop has talked about Simmons, I doubt he drops him so we have space for one. As you can tell I'm high on both. I even like Joel too. If I had to take one, I believe the wisest decision would be Pato. Just because we have a lot of depth at the PG/SG spot and we lack solid backup defender after Danny and Kawhi. I think one of our strengths is our ability to put top defenders on both wing positions and I'm not sure i can confidently say Kyle is solid at the least. His d is a little gimmicky and relys on his length. Pato has solid fundamentals and he can stretch the floor. I just don't think our ability to out score a team is gonna be the primary focus. It's not how we are built. I could be wrong though. I think making life difficult and punishing teams with our size is the play and I think Pato fits that style more. Plus I think he's Pops kind of guy; blue collar, outspoken, etc. Bryn theoretically can only cover Patty's spot while Pato can cover more, just depending on who you plug him with. With that said, another Neal with a better head on the shoulders is very enticing and would make our offense more explosive. We'll see. Can't wait for the scrimmage.

Good post!

I think Lappy though will get the last spot, it just seems that Pop trusts him more.

[ceperez]

Some thoughts about the game...

Anyways I think there is a lot of over reacting going on in here. I'm not gonna write an article or anything, but here we go.

I like to evaluate on this criteria:

Quality of shots
Quality of teamwork

For point A, I thought we had a lot of good looks. You can't say a guy can't cut it cause he missed shots. If they were good looks than it's ok if it's a miss. Of course you want them to go in but the fact of the matter is they don't all the time and this is preseason so percentages are typically down due to various reasons.

For point B, I liked the ball movement and selflessness tonight. There were a lot of good to great shots and I think Kawhi lead by example beautifully, case in point the pass to LMA where he wasn't looking for it. I hope it sets a tone for the season.

Kyle: I thought he played a solid game overall. He defended well, he took good shots, he made some plays. I know we want him to shoot the three but he needs time for that and unless he's wide open he's not going to force it. If he collapses the defense and makes a nice pass for a good shot that's ok too. I don't know what y'all expect. He's not a sniper. If he can hit an open one than yes thats perfect but expecting him to shoot a quick release shot on a solid closeout is not suited for him. I liked his passes. Y'all wanting him to score more and look for his shot more need to realize that he's not that high on the totem pole. He's never higher than 4th option imo with starters and bench. His role imo is to be someone who initiates the ball movement. I don't think it's an accident that he drives on closeouts. I'm suggesting that it's designed that way. If he has a look than take it, etc.

Simmons: For the people that is saying he's trash, you're missing it. Tonight he showed improvement from last season. He was under control almost exclusively. Last year he put his head down and went straight for the rim. Tonight he drove and kicked. He also has that pull up that he's been working on since summer league. He had one shot that was ugly but he got the ball back. He's not pretty but he can be effective. I haven't seen much of the preseason but this is what I've seen.

Final roster spot:
It seems we have a bunch of specialists vying for the last spot and it's easy to make a case for almost all of them, except Arci, and Laprivotola? imo. Bryn is a sniper from three and you can play him alongside any playmaker; could make great depth on the bench for Patty. Pato could be the next 3 and D find and could prove very valuable against the Warriors. He could play 3 positions on D vs small ball lineups. In regular lineups he's like a 2/3. Joel Anthony provides some depth at center with the poor play by Dedmon.

Tony/Patty/Murray
Green/Manu/Simmons
Kawhi/Kyle/Bertans
LMA/Lee/Livio
Gasol/Dedmon

On paper another 5 would be great, but I'm getting a little attached to Bryn and Pato. I wish we could keep them both. I think they could become assets. With how Pop has talked about Simmons, I doubt he drops him so we have space for one. As you can tell I'm high on both. I even like Joel too. If I had to take one, I believe the wisest decision would be Pato. Just because we have a lot of depth at the PG/SG spot and we lack solid backup defender after Danny and Kawhi. I think one of our strengths is our ability to put top defenders on both wing positions and I'm not sure i can confidently say Kyle is solid at the least. His d is a little gimmicky and relys on his length. Pato has solid fundamentals and he can stretch the floor. I just don't think our ability to out score a team is gonna be the primary focus. It's not how we are built. I could be wrong though. I think making life difficult and punishing teams with our size is the play and I think Pato fits that style more. Plus I think he's Pops kind of guy; blue collar, outspoken, etc. Bryn theoretically can only cover Patty's spot while Pato can cover more, just depending on who you plug him with. With that said, another Neal with a better head on the shoulders is very enticing and would make our offense more explosive. We'll see. Can't wait for the scrimmage.

Good post!

I think Lappy though will get the last spot, it just seems that Pop trusts him more.

With so many green players in the team, Spurs need more players that can step up and lead.

[Brazil]

You cut me. You cut me to the core.

My God. I need to talk to Brazil (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=14466) about you. You falling hard, man.

You both are my niggs tbh... TGY is a gem too my man

[GSH]

I think Lappy though will get the last spot, it just seems that Pop trusts him more.


They have watched him enough to not panic over a few early pre-season games. The transition to the NBA is tough, and I know some guys never adjust. But I still think he's the best of the first-year guards on the roster, and I still think he'll be on the regular season roster.

One of Garino's interviews sounded like he thinks he needs to develop his game in the D-League. And if he thinks that, Pop probably does too. But he's the same height as Simmons, and heavier/stronger, and he seems to really want to play defense. And he's four years younger than Simmons. I don't think he'll replace Simmons on the Spurs' roster this year, but if Simmons doesn't take the next step up, he could next year.

Trying to figure out what the Spurs are going to do means eating crow as often as not, but I think that's how it will play out. Lap on the regular season roster, Garino in Austin and getting a couple of 10-day looks with the Spurs. Simmons on the roster, but I the hot seat - either step up or step out.

[rjv]

wake me up when we're 20 games into the season.

[raybies]

They have watched him enough to not panic over a few early pre-season games. The transition to the NBA is tough, and I know some guys never adjust. But I still think he's the best of the first-year guards on the roster, and I still think he'll be on the regular season roster.

One of Garino's interviews sounded like he thinks he needs to develop his game in the D-League. And if he thinks that, Pop probably does too. But he's the same height as Simmons, and heavier/stronger, and he seems to really want to play defense. And he's four years younger than Simmons. I don't think he'll replace Simmons on the Spurs' roster this year, but if Simmons doesn't take the next step up, he could next year.

Trying to figure out what the Spurs are going to do means eating crow as often as not, but I think that's how it will play out. Lap on the regular season roster, Garino in Austin and getting a couple of 10-day looks with the Spurs. Simmons on the roster, but I the hot seat - either step up or step out.

Good post. Great points.

[gambit1990]

only two preseason games left...

[TD 21]

The Anderson-Lee-Dedmon backup front line predictably doesn't work offensively and it's not about it "being early".

That possession early in the 2nd quarter where Ginobili bailed them out with a quick release catch and shoot deep 3 was a perfect example of the issues this unit will inevitably have if they remain intact.

Anderson turned down a wide open 3 followed by Lee doing the same with an 18 footer. They then commenced panic mode and ran dribble hand offs and weaves that were ineffective because the defense could just duck way under every screen and wall off the paint.

Lee and Dedmon also seemed unsure of how they'll have to function together. Whichever isn't the roll man needs to be in the "dunker" spot. Really though, he needs to either stagger their minutes or drop one from the rotation.

[ceperez]

The Anderson-Lee-Dedmon backup front line predictably doesn't work offensively and it's not about it "being early".

That possession early in the 2nd quarter where Ginobili bailed them out with a quick release catch and shoot deep 3 was a perfect example of the issues this unit will inevitably have if they remain intact.

Anderson turned down a wide open 3 followed by Lee doing the same with an 18 footer. They then commenced panic mode and ran dribble hand offs and weaves that were ineffective because the defense could just duck way under every screen and wall off the paint.

Lee and Dedmon also seemed unsure of how they'll have to function together. Whichever isn't the roll man needs to be in the "dunker" spot. Really though, he needs to either stagger their minutes or drop one from the rotation.

Lee with Dedmon really sucks. Lee without a legit big like Pau or Aldridge sucks.

I honestly think though that it makes sense to stagger Pau and Aldridge. Having them both on the court at the same time really isn't that efficient since they have very similar offensive games.

[ElNono]

The Anderson-Lee-Dedmon backup front line predictably doesn't work offensively and it's not about it "being early".

That possession early in the 2nd quarter where Ginobili bailed them out with a quick release catch and shoot deep 3 was a perfect example of the issues this unit will inevitably have if they remain intact.

Anderson turned down a wide open 3 followed by Lee doing the same with an 18 footer. They then commenced panic mode and ran dribble hand offs and weaves that were ineffective because the defense could just duck way under every screen and wall off the paint.

Lee and Dedmon also seemed unsure of how they'll have to function together. Whichever isn't the roll man needs to be in the "dunker" spot. Really though, he needs to either stagger their minutes or drop one from the rotation.

The not-so-hilarious part about that play is that if Manu misses, most people won't remember that play at all, then look at the stat sheet and OMG, Manu taking too many shots. He's going to be the escape valve when the offense goes to shit in that unit, and by the looks of it right now, he's going to have to bail possessions quite a bit.

[Ice009]

only two preseason games left...

Isn't it 3?

[gambit1990]

Isn't it 3?
yeah, i missed it. cause the last game's not until a week after we play miami.

[sasaint]

Lee with Dedmon really sucks. Lee without a legit big like Pau or Aldridge sucks.

I honestly think though that it makes sense to stagger Pau and Aldridge. Having them both on the court at the same time really isn't that efficient since they have very similar offensive games.

Oh man. Second verse same as the first. Pop didn't stagger LMA with Tim; he ain't gonna do it with Tim-light. And many ST posters will probably ridicule the idea. You were right last year, and you convinced me pretty early in the season that Pop should split up LMA/Tim and Diaw/West, and Tim should have come off the bench. You are right again this year. :toast Ultimately, PATFO need to quit chasing the biggest name free agent they can sign and just sign guys that fit. I fear this team is a mess.

[SAGirl]

Oh man. Second verse same as the first. Pop didn't stagger LMA with Tim; he ain't gonna do it with Tim-light. And many ST posters will probably ridicule the idea. You were right last year, and you convinced me pretty early in the season that Pop should split up LMA/Tim and Diaw/West, and Tim should have come off the bench. You are right again this year. :toast Ultimately, PATFO need to quit chasing the biggest name free agent they can sign and just sign guys that fit. I fear this team is a mess.
I think this season's bigs are worse than last season so my hope for 60 wins is no more. 55 sounds about right on Kawhi's back. Only someone unheralded from guys 8-15 making a difference will swing more games unexpectedly. We all have our picks and some guys don't have any picks, they plan on riding Manus back at 39 or have already proclaimed Spurs pretenders...

What does Pop have planned? I don't know but based on last season, he will be willing to mix and match guys in 8-13 but the SL stays put. Though I did see some staggering of lineups, preseason may not be characteristic of they RS rotation yet.

[wildbill2u]

which VPN service is good to use? Looking at NordVPN right now.

The Opera browser is a very good fast browser with a VPN service built in for free.

[wildbill2u]

how much Anderson plays likely depends on him not passing up those shots, probably regardless of makes or not. Pop will get it through him through benchings I am sure.
Maybe they are trying to decide which of his skills they want to predominate while he is on court. Maybe they are grooming him for a no-shoot, defensive PF/SF/SG/PG? Or maybe...

[SAGirl]

Maybe they are trying to decide which of his skills they want to predominate while he is on court. Maybe they are grooming him for a no-shoot, defensive PF/SF/SG/PG? Or maybe...
Personally, and I disagree with Chinook on this, though I can see his point, his best asset has always been the combination of things he can do, he will rebound, get a steal, a block, a board in traffic sometimes that you didn't expect, and play really smart, finding open people that surprise you at times (we have seen the passing ability), then he would be opportunistic scoring. Obviously as a former pass first PG, being opportunistic in his scoring was ideal, he set up others for a lot of easy shots, and looked for his own things only when they didn't get anything and he needed to take that upon himself. That is why he's such an unlikely, yet talented iso scorer. But he didn't have the scorer mentality. He doesn't go in looking to get his own, he does what he does (whatever it is), looking for a teammate for better or worse. I don't think the Spurs would want to lose that. Guys like that are rare, specially guys who have enough talent to make quick decisions on the right play.

Now the next step for him would be to increase his own production scoring and this season's bench in particular has less talent, or rather they have a lot of undeveloped talent and rookies, and the bench bigs are not scorers outside of Lee. For example if he's in there with LJC or Dedmon, those guys are not going to score. So he maybe has to be more aggressive than as deferential as he could afford to be in the past. WE haven't seen that, so I guess we can be disappointed. It is early though. I have been more disappointed that he's passed up shots at times. That is probably the only thing that I have disliked and I hope Pop gets on him about that (and teammates).

[ceperez]

Personally, and I disagree with Chinook on this, though I can see his point, his best asset has always been the combination of things he can do, he will rebound, get a steal, a block, a board in traffic sometimes that you didn't expect, and play really smart, finding open people that surprise you at times (we have seen the passing ability), then he would be opportunistic scoring. Obviously as a former pass first PG, being opportunistic in his scoring was ideal, he set up others for a lot of easy shots, and looked for his own things only when they didn't get anything and he needed to take that upon himself. That is why he's such an unlikely, yet talented iso scorer. But he didn't have the scorer mentality. He doesn't go in looking to get his own, he does what he does (whatever it is), looking for a teammate for better or worse. I don't think the Spurs would want to lose that. Guys like that are rare, specially guys who have enough talent to make quick decisions on the right play.

Now the next step for him would be to increase his own production scoring and this season's bench in particular has less talent, or rather they have a lot of undeveloped talent and rookies, and the bench bigs are not scorers outside of Lee. For example if he's in there with LJC or Dedmon, those guys are not going to score. So he maybe has to be more aggressive than as deferential as he could afford to be in the past. WE haven't seen that, so I guess we can be disappointed. It is early though. I have been more disappointed that he's passed up shots at times. That is probably the only thing that I have disliked and I hope Pop gets on him about that (and teammates).

The best pairing is to pair Kyle with Kawhi. That's as simple as it gets. Kyle is not dominant enough of a player to be the first offensive option.

I'm in favor of that suggestion to move Kawhi to the 2. So you got Patty / Kawhi / Kyle / LaMarcus / Pau as your starters.

Second team becomes Parker / Ginobili / Green / Lee / Dedmon

With the two other subs in the rotation being Simmons and Bertans.

D-leaguers are Murray, LJC, Laprovitolla, Garino, Forbes, Arcidiacono

[ace3g]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/725371299661512704/-fZvlLTc_bigger.jpg Steve McPherson Verified account ‏@steventurous (https://twitter.com/steventurous)

*listens to Father John Misty once*

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CusNVcsXYAAr850.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CusNXRBWYAAHeZy.jpg

[YGWHI]

:lol