Kyle Anderson isn't good enough...

[MaNu4Tres]

For those wishing and hoping for Kyle to be more aggressive... Stop it.

Kyle, now in his 3rd year, is not the type of player to be aggressive with the ball initiating offense. He's not quick enough to create enough space to get off a good shot for him or his teammates. If he creates a shot, its over the top of his defender only because of how long he is. Shooting over your defender fading away is a bad shot and a terribly inefficient way to be aggressive and that's the only kind offense he can create with the ball.

The only type of aggression he needs to implement in his game is taking the open three when the ball is swung to him. It's three preseason games in his third year in the NBA, and he still refuses to take the open three. He is still constantly turning it down in favor of pump faking ( that no defender falls for), and putting the ball on the floor going left into a congested area where he traps himself and his teammates. He ruins any kind of fluidity and spacing within an offense.

I know it's early, but I prefer Spurs going with Bertans at the back up three and using Anderson as a trade piece to bring in another big.

[dabom]

I agree. Everything is correct.

[tonight...you]

I also want to see what Bertans has in place of Kyle. At least he shoots the damn rock.

[DeRozan m8]

We should trade or cut him, he's done, he's never going to be anything, I'm surprised he still gets so many free passes here...sad part is you could tell years ago this was the case.

Just can't see him bringing anything overly positive to the Spurs in the long run

[gambit1990]

idk what people are expecting anderson to become. would play bertans over him.

[TheGreatYacht]

Legend has it he's still passing up open threes

[apalisoc_9]

Myself and I assume some others think of aggressivness as Just Him being willing to take the open three.

I'm not expecting a whole lot from him as a player but he can be a servicable 9th guy in his career of he works on his three.

[apalisoc_9]

Waiting for SAgirl to respond.

[tonight...you]

Myself and I assume some others think of aggressivness as Just Him being willing to take the open three.

I'm not expecting a whole lot from him as a player but he can be a servicable 9th guy in his career of he works on his three.
That's the problem, bud. Pop is counting on him to be the 5th, 6th, or 7th guy this season.
That's a problem.

[timtonymanu]

I haven't watched any preseason games but it sounds like he still has the same flaws he had last season. We can't keep saying "he's young, he'll get better." Plus I still can't forgive him for how ineffective he was in the OKC series. And it's sounding like Bertans has been much better too.

[DeRozan m8]

I swear he'd better not become the next leech like Bonner

[ElNono]

Welp, it is early... plus word on the street, from Pop and some teammates is that he's good, and potentially warrants a bigger role.

Going back to my summer league comments, it just doesn't really look like he's changed much at all from last season. There's no new tricks or change of attitude. I don't know if I got used to him by now or the summer league guys were just too skinny, but he doesn't even look as bulky as he did during the summer.

ISO-Kyle might be a winner in the SL, but I've yet to see that's going to work in the NBA. And his unwillingness to just make the easy play sometimes (taking what the game gives him, not what he wants) is just disappointing.

But it is early. I'm sure there's going to be one too many video sessions to point that out to him, and hopefully there will be a breakthrough at some point.

If anything, Bertrans potentially bringing up some competition can only be good to make him work harder for it.

[Hoops Czar]

I haven't watched any preseason games but it sounds like he still has the same flaws he had last season. We can't keep saying "he's young, he'll get better." Plus I still can't forgive him for how ineffective he was in the OKC series. And it's sounding like Bertans has been much better too.

That's right you haven't.

[tonight...you]

I haven't watched any preseason games but it sounds like he still has the same flaws he had last season. We can't keep saying "he's young, he'll get better." Plus I still can't forgive him for how ineffective he was in the OKC series. And it's sounding like Bertans has been much better too.
C'mon... Shut up. Watch a game, for Christ's sake and then talk.

If only...

[timtonymanu]

:lol

[gambit1990]

give that guy a break, he's just giving his impression of what the people who have been able to see the games think.

and his take is right too.

[Solid D]

Bump-able thread, imo.

[dabom]

Bump-able thread, imo.

For who? :lmao

[Hoops Czar]

And Pop wants to increase his role this year by playing him at three positions. :lol How the hell can he play three different positions when he can't master one.

[Emperor]

Keep him in Austin so he can dominate there.

[Sean Cagney]

Ehhhhhhh, he is okay but not overly impressed with the guy tbh. He is nicknamed SLOW, that is not good.

[SAGirl]

Probably will be bumped all season and I hope for the Spurs that he will pull it together.

This is the actual season when you can be critical so it's fine. Last season he was for all intents a rook since he didn't play much his first and getting in as the 15th man to a championship team returning all 14 players in 2014 is not what I call an opportunity to get in the rotation.

This season though, they are counting on him. I expect Pop to be tougher on him than last season offensively. The issue he has is mental. He doesn't have the mind of a shooter, but he's not beyond hope because he can shoot however. This is not an issue of him being unable to shoot the ball, which is the issue for guys who launch 5 shots per game and still only make 27% like some in the league. That's not Kyle. So he's not beyond hope. A trade will not return value at this point.

[SAGirl]

C'mon... Shut up. Watch a game, for Christ's sake and then talk.

If only...

too much of that going on... lol

[TheGreatYacht]

This thread will be bumped for sure... When he's cut so we can sign some old fuck right before the playoff eligibility deadline :lol
















Na that'll never happen, Pop loves him more than Matt.

[ElNono]

I hope for the Spurs that he will pull it together.

No doubt about this. The fact the Spurs potentially wasted 3 years on this guy if he doesn't pan out will probably hurt even more.

[gambit1990]

but sagirl said he's already proven himself in the nba :lol

[gambit1990]

can you imagine what billy king would give us for tony and anderson?

[Brian Windhorst]

It just blows my mind that people (Pop included) think Kyle Anderson can ever work next to two bigs.

[apalisoc_9]

SAgirl got mad at me when I called Kyle a Role Player..

:lol

Wonder if Sagirl stops supporting the spurs if kyle gets moved..

[SAGirl]

It just blows my mind that people (Pop included) think Kyle Anderson can ever work next to two bigs.

I think the same if none of the two bigs can shoot.

[MaNu4Tres]

Kyle has some value still. Maybe not great, but some -- as he still has another year after this one on his rookie deal for a little over 1 mil. His showcases in summerleague in an expansive role helps. SA can use that and Kawhi/ Green heavy minutes as leverage in negotiations.

Package him with another player + an asset shld bring back decent value.

Also, Noel or other rookies, who are at the end of their rookie deals, wont have as much value if they obviously arent in their teams future plans. Players at the end of their rookie deals dont have as much value bc the team receiving the player has to be willimg to pay the rookie the following year to make the trade worth it.

Its a good time to buy low on Noel, and teams will leverage time against the Sixers as they will hold their subpar offers for the trade deadline. Philly wont get offered much for him.

Regardless, I think Kyle and Simmons shld be shopped if Bertans impresses.

[gambit1990]

i could see him on the clippers. he could set up blake and deandre when cp3 is on the bench.

[gambit1990]

It just blows my mind that people (Pop included) think Kyle Anderson can ever work next to two bigs.

I think the same if none of the two bigs can shoot.
lma and gasol can shoot. i hope we see anderson, lma, and gasol on the court at the same time as little as possible. or else that would mean the frontcourt is made up of three players who aren't known for their quickness.

[tonight...you]

i could see him on the clippers. he could set up blake and deandre when cp3 is on the bench.
No... he'll put the ball on the floor and 3 out of 4 times something not ideal will happen.

[DJR210]

He needs to aggressively attack that hair with some clippers

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Kyle Anderson is not an NBA ready player.

At all.

[SAGirl]

SAgirl got mad at me when I called Kyle a Role Player..

:lol

Wonder if Sagirl stops supporting the spurs if kyle gets moved..
I was a fan b4 him TBH.

[TimDunkem]

He isn't completely awful, but he's not a good fit. He needs the ball in his hands to be effective and he's not good enough (or aggressive enough) to warrant that kind of role on this team.

Guy needs to go.

[SAGirl]

No doubt about this. The fact the Spurs potentially wasted 3 years on this guy if he doesn't pan out will probably hurt even more.
Well the 3rd season is this one. He's been here 2. The first one he was the 15th man in a full roster. He wasn't taking anyone's spot that you wanted. I do agree he is under pressure for his 3rd season which this one is.

[ElNono]

Well the 3rd season is this one. He's been here 2. The first one he was the 15th man in a full roster. He wasn't taking anyone's spot that you wanted. I do agree he is under pressure for his 3rd season which this one is.

I'm not particularly talking about roster spots. It's obvious they spent time developing him, coaching him, etc. He was a project, much like Corey Joseph was. There was an investment in him, if you will.

Obviously, if they stuck with him, it's because they felt that there was something there. Hopefully there is.

[kaji157]

As long as people expect him to carry a bench full of scrubs and also want him to make that scrub second unit look like they can match a playoff team, Kyle will be labeled a failure.
He is no Manu Ginobili, there are no Manu´s in the league, few players can take a team of no ones and make them play well.
Manu used to do this but unless we move on of the idea that we are still able to have a shitty bench whith one great player, and make him responsible of everything, we will have a lot of failures.
We need to understand that our bench unit, in the future, will not be able to match up and keep up with other teams starters.
Kyle does well against, subs, that´s all that he is being asked to do i think, we fans just have been spoiled for so long that we lost track of what a bench unit really is.

[Solid D]

For who? :lmao

It could be for anyone...depending on the game and how well or poorly Kyle plays. Why? Because that's how this place is.

[SAGirl]

I'm not particularly talking about roster spots. It's obvious they spent time developing him, coaching him, etc. He was a project, much like Corey Joseph was. There was an investment in him, if you will.

Obviously, if they stuck with him, it's because they felt that there was something there. Hopefully there is.
I see what you mean now. I agree it is an investment. Hopefully he realizes the team needs him and steps up his game when he is open. If he was MCW and couldn't shoot worth a lick I would have lost hope, but he can shoot yet passes up shots, so I still have hope it can be remedied.

I know also what you said about cutting and screening but I saw very little of that from everyone all around. Could be new sets, new ppl, lack of chemistry but when it's something like that one has to think of Pop and system. The other review on the other game that we didn't see (Hawks) mentioned all 3 of Kyle, Manu and Patty running PNR as ballhandler at different times.

I think the bench is limited in what they can do when none of the bigs can shoot and Lee is a good roller but a known non-shooter and Dedmon is a non-factor offensively and on top of that camps the paint. Seriously there's not much that they can do. Looking at guys shot charts the last few games, everyone in the bench playing with that pair has been abysmal scoring in the paint, even Manu, and we saw why tonight.

Kyle is definitively not a guy you run through 3 screens to get a shot. That's Patty, maybe Bertans (and he's not played that way). For himself Kyle needs to grow a pair with the trigger when he's open, the rest I place on Pop and the system and maybe chemistry right now. It's not clear what they are running other than PNR.

[YGWHI]

We need to understand that our bench unit, in the future, will not be able to match up and keep up with other teams starters.
If we learned anything of OKC series is that our bench can't already match other elite teams.

And the biggest issue is Pop's continuing to play them like they can.

If he sacrifices depth -signing a big name like LMA, opting for Pau, staying loyal to Parker/Manu-, has to realize he can't play the bench in the same way that 3 years ago when 2nd unit was the best in the league, he must rely more on the starters and hope for the best.

[SAGirl]

As long as people expect him to carry a bench full of scrubs and also want him to make that scrub second unit look like they can match a playoff team, Kyle will be labeled a failure.
He is no Manu Ginobili, there are no Manu´s in the league, few players can take a team of no ones and make them play well.
Manu used to do this but unless we move on of the idea that we are still able to have a shitty bench whith one great player, and make him responsible of everything, we will have a lot of failures.
We need to understand that our bench unit, in the future, will not be able to match up and keep up with other teams starters.
Kyle does well against, subs, that´s all that he is being asked to do i think, we fans just have been spoiled for so long that we lost track of what a bench unit really is.
I agree with you. Also in typical spurstalk fashion there is cliff jumping over one game that hopefully is a teaching lesson for everyone in it, coaches included.

He has to shoot when open at the 3, there's no doubt about it. I am not sure what's up with him bc he was shooting much better and Pop mentioned improvements in his shot as one of the reasons to increase his playing time, so I do think he has to turn his reluctancy around. I suspect aggressive close outs play a part and he's going to have to get over that.

Everything else other than passing up on the 3, I really can't get on his behind about this early in the season. It's not clear what they are running other than PNR with two nonshooters in the paint. I consider this a lot of experimental stuff by Pop right now.

I agree with you they have to rely on their system to get shots. Hopefully come play off time Pop realizes he has a top heavy team and mixes them up better and I think Pop has contingency plans for that. But to prepare for a long season, for the long haul they all need to be better and Pop has to figure out who plays better with who, something he mentioned.

[Kikoluna]

I've been saying this for along time. The guy is not an NBA player. It blows my mind how he's getting any playing time. Can't run, shoot, rebound. He needs to go as in the second the okc series ended. Sadly pop is obsessed with him and i will continue to suffer watching him check in acting like it's not a big deal. The guy is a disgrace. And I truly support every spurs player except him

[SAGirl]

By the way, Kyle won't be traded... so it's a moot point not this early anyways...

[Chinook]

Kyle's good enough if he stops beating himself. The Pistons couldn't guard him last night, and he did nothing with that. He missed some shots he'll probably hit most of the time (think he had three that caught back iron and bounced out), and with one or two of those, his line looks fine. But as I said in the game thread, Kyle desperately needs a Murray-esque 3-13 or 4-15 game. Sure, it would be great if he shot better than that, but he needs to show that he's willing to keep firing even if he's cold rather than trying to take a couple of really good looks.

[ceperez]

Kyle's good enough if he stops beating himself. The Pistons couldn't guard him last night, and he did nothing with that. He missed some shots he'll probably hit most of the time (think he had three that caught back iron and bounced out), and with one or two of those, his line looks fine. But as I said in the game thread, Kyle desperately needs a Murray-esque 3-13 or 4-15 game. Sure, it would be great if he shot better than that, but he needs to show that he's willing to keep firing even if he's cold rather than trying to take a couple of really good looks.

Is he just thinking too much?

[Chinook]

Is he just thinking too much?

Might be. Whatever it is, it needs to get fixed. Single-most important thing Pop can do this season.

[BillMc]

This team desperately needs one of its still young(in some cases youngish) veterans to make a leap to a better class of player. If any one of Dedmon, Kyle, or Simmons can do this it would help the team tremendously. But, so far, there are no signs that any of them are markedly improved.

[SAGirl]

Kyle's good enough if he stops beating himself. The Pistons couldn't guard him last night, and he did nothing with that. He missed some shots he'll probably hit most of the time (think he had three that caught back iron and bounced out), and with one or two of those, his line looks fine. But as I said in the game thread, Kyle desperately needs a Murray-esque 3-13 or 4-15 game. Sure, it would be great if he shot better than that, but he needs to show that he's willing to keep firing even if he's cold rather than trying to take a couple of really good looks.
I got one answer in terms of aggression: :pop:

I don't know to what degree he has the green light to force things and I don't think that he does. Only Kawhi has that green light and LMA. They are the pronounced scorers in the team. Pau has his and will get his, but even Tony has been reigned in. Everyone else has to look for shots within the offense. What those shots (green lighted shots) look like for Kyle I am not sure yet, but I am guessing contested 3s ain't it. Hopefully it's a progression through the season. I don't think he will be green lighted to take that many shots. Maybe when everyone sits. There was one game last season he took 14 shots and was at 50%, when Kawhi was injured and he played against the Lakers. A situation like that is the only time I see him taking that many shots.

As much as others don't want to hear it, it's a progression for him. He won't jump from a guy who was a blip on the radar offensively to being major in really one offseason.... but hopefully by the end of the season he has gotten there and we do see a progression and maturation through the season that maybe is not there right now. That starts with his aggression, but also requires that we look at what Pop has guys doing. Again the issue of the bench bigs not spacing the floor is problematic for guys who like to drive and I think it's a real concern, the lack of shooting, to the point where Forbes despite two terrible games shooting his first couple of games, kept getting chances, after chances, and may displace a guy I like a lot in Garino.

With Dedmon/Lee, I don't think you can play J.Simms/Kyle at all. Even Murray is problematic bc he also likes to drive into the paint and there are no good shots there for him (was off shooting floaters too in this game).

[sasaint]

If we learned anything of OKC series is that our bench can't already match other elite teams.

And the biggest issue is Pop's continuing to play them like they can.

If he sacrifices depth -signing a big name like LMA, opting for Pau, staying loyal to Parker/Manu-, has to realize he can't play the bench in the same way that 3 years ago when 2nd unit was the best in the league, he must rely more on the starters and hope for the best.

Incisive, sir! :toast

[sasaint]

Might be. Whatever it is, it needs to get fixed. Single-most important thing Pop can do this season.

The single most important thing Pop can do this season is identify a solid/reliable sixth man/occasional starter for the future - whether it be Kyle (as some of us have hoped/expected) or somebody else. (Manu is on his last legs.) But the team will go nowhere with Deadman this season. LMA/Gasol/Lee is not a championship-caliber "big" rotation.

[jermaine]

The single most important thing Pop can do this season is identify a solid/reliable sixth man/occasional starter for the future - whether it be Kyle (as some of us have hoped/expected) or somebody else. (Manu is on his last legs.) But the team will go nowhere with Deadman this season. LMA/Gasol/Lee is not a championship-caliber "big" rotation.

Are you on crack? Lee an Gasol are proven champions! An I'm sure Dedmon will be just fine by rodeo trip! But Kyle, he can be useful I think. Simmons has to go if you ask me. That nicca trash!

[sasaint]

This team desperately needs one of its still young(in some cases youngish) veterans to make a leap to a better class of player. If any one of Dedmon, Kyle, or Simmons can do this it would help the team tremendously. But, so far, there are no signs that any of them are markedly improved.

Deadman should be moved quickly; Ayres would actually be an improvement.

Simmons, at age 27, still commits the same errors, trying to force himself where his skill level cannot take him.

Kyle has lacked a defined role, and that has contributed to his passivity. Out of your three "hopefuls" he is the only one in whom I have any real hope left.

Because they are more seasoned than most rookies, you might throw Lapro and Garino onto your list, too - not immediately, but perhaps before the season is over.

[Chinook]

I appreciate your ardor, SAG, but I disagree. I think Pop has been past "green lights" since the Medium Three era began. Guys are allowed to take any shot they can hit with good efficiency. Danny and Patty can take any three they want. Parker and drive any time he wants. Manu can do whatever he wants. Anderson knows how to score. When he has the ball and is open or in position to attack a closeout, he needs to go for it. I have never seen Pop made at someone taking a open three.

[Chinook]

The single most important thing Pop can do this season is identify a solid/reliable sixth man/occasional starter for the future - whether it be Kyle (as some of us have hoped/expected) or somebody else. (Manu is on his last legs.) But the team will go nowhere with Deadman this season. LMA/Gasol/Lee is not a championship-caliber "big" rotation.

I would not be as keen to write of Dedmon as you seem to be. I thought he was markedly better last game than he was against the Suns last week. Unless he plays elite defense, he won't be much better than Lee. But I don't know that the Spurs have to worry too much about their big rotation this season if everyone stays healthy. LMA/Gasol/Lee is better than what Cleveland rolled out and not too different than what GS had when they won. Hell, I'm inclined to put it on par with what the Spurs had in 2014 and the Heatles had in their championship years.

[sasaint]

I got one answer in terms of aggression: :pop:

I don't know to what degree he has the green light to force things and I don't think that he does. Only Kawhi has that green light and LMA. They are the pronounced scorers in the team. Pau has his and will get his, but even Tony has been reigned in. Everyone else has to look for shots within the offense. What those shots (green lighted shots) look like for Kyle I am not sure yet, but I am guessing contested 3s ain't it. Hopefully it's a progression through the season. I don't think he will be green lighted to take that many shots. Maybe when everyone sits. There was one game last season he took 14 shots and was at 50%, when Kawhi was injured and he played against the Lakers. A situation like that is the only time I see him taking that many shots.

As much as others don't want to hear it, it's a progression for him. He won't jump from a guy who was a blip on the radar offensively to being major in really one offseason.... but hopefully by the end of the season he has gotten there and we do see a progression and maturation through the season that maybe is not there right now. That starts with his aggression, but also requires that we look at what Pop has guys doing. Again the issue of the bench bigs not spacing the floor is problematic for guys who like to drive and I think it's a real concern, the lack of shooting, to the point where Forbes despite two terrible games shooting his first couple of games, kept getting chances, after chances, and may displace a guy I like a lot in Garino.

With Dedmon/Lee, I don't think you can play J.Simms/Kyle at all. Even Murray is problematic bc he also likes to drive into the paint and there are no good shots there for him (was off shooting floaters too in this game).

One thing about Pop is that he has consistently gotten on players for NOT taking the open shot. I think your idea of a,"green light" is a little antiquated.

[Chinook]

One thing about Pop is that he has consistently gotten on players for NOT taking the open shot. I think your idea of a,"green light" is a little antiquated.

I think the only person who might have a yellow light is Murray.

[toki9]

Might be. Whatever it is, it needs to get fixed. Single-most important thing Pop can do this season.

Maybe like this?

https://imageshack.com/i/plzk1zh9g

[SAGirl]

One thing about Pop is that he has consistently gotten on players for NOT taking the open shot. I think your idea of a,"green light" is a little antiquated.
If he's not taking the shots he's supposed to, I actually would like to see Pop get on him, but I didn't see that here, which then places the doubt if the shots he passed were good shots for him or not. I really only saw one 3 he should have taken. The other one had a hard close out by Leuer who is a 6'10" guy who could get to his shot. So yea, I really do question which are his shots. No one was screening for him to be open at the 3 (a point you brought up in terms of screening for shots)... also another reason why one has to look at what Pop has guys doing.

I do know when Dijon is taking shots he's not supposed to be taking bc he gets pulled. I have seen on occasion Pop pull someone for passing up shots, but not this game and I didn't see Pop get on Kyle.

[MaNu4Tres]

. Again the issue of the bench bigs not spacing the floor is problematic for guys who like to drive and I think it's a real concern, the lack of shooting, to the point where Forbes despite two terrible games shooting his first couple of games, kept getting chances, after chances, and may displace a guy I like a lot in Garino.

With Dedmon/Lee, I don't think you can play J.Simms/Kyle at all. Even Murray is problematic bc he also likes to drive into the paint and there are no good shots there for him (was off shooting floaters too in this game).

Disagree with this.

They can play with Dedmon/Lee, but Lee and Dedmon have to be where they need to be. Last night, Dedmon was playing in spot where he has zero value majority of the time -- on the block with his hand in the air calling for the ball. When he's just standing on the block, not setting any screens on the perimeter, of course he will clog the painted area. But even if he was a shooter, the team doesn't have perimeter players that can get past their man off the dribble to create without a screen.

Dedmon needs to focus on setting screens on and off ball away from the basket and implementing the diving action after every screen. The opposing big, Lee, in this case, needs to be in the dunker spot awaiting sprinting back out to the perimeter to set another screen if the first screen set by Dedmon is contested well by the defense. There needs to be constant fluidity in this regard when you have two PnR divers. If they both can do this right, it will actually increase spacing on the weakside and in general.

Having shooting big men won't necessarily do any good because nobody on the bench is good enough ( with exception to Murray) to take their man off the dribble to create. There has to be a screen involved. If the screen is followed by a popping action then the long 2 or three point attempt by a big is the shot the team is likely getting most often in the long run ( not sustainable against great teams). If the screen is followed by a roll or dive to the basket then the open shots will come from better shooters, three point shooters on the weakside, like Mills, Green, Bertans ect. Those are the shots the Spurs need to take more often instead of long 2's or three point attempts taken by a big.

Spurs can play Lee and Dedmon together but they need to be used right in order to optimize spacing and opportunity for our perimeter players. Last night they were not.

[kaji157]

Deadman should be moved quickly; Ayres would actually be an improvement.

Simmons, at age 27, still commits the same errors, trying to force himself where his skill level cannot take him.

Kyle has lacked a defined role, and that has contributed to his passivity. Out of your three "hopefuls" he is the only one in whom I have any real hope left.

Because they are more seasoned than most rookies, you might throw Lapro and Garino onto your list, too - not immediately, but perhaps before the season is over.

Right now the Spurs have 3 players under contract that seem unable to contribute more than they already have. Anderson, Simmons and Deadman.
If we do not start unloading some of them and looking for answers elsewhere the team will be very thin at the bigs rotation and also at the guards.

It´s a really complicated situation, but as it is right now, y would consider cutting some players that have been unable to exceed expectations in favor of new ones who might.

[sasaint]

I would not be as keen to write of Dedmon as you seem to be. I thought he was markedly better last game than he was against the Suns last week. Unless he plays elite defense, he won't be much better than Lee. But I don't know that the Spurs have to worry too much about their big rotation this season if everyone stays healthy. LMA/Gasol/Lee is better than what Cleveland rolled out and not too different than what GS had when they won. Hell, I'm inclined to put it on par with what the Spurs had in 2014 and the Heatles had in their championship years.

If LMA/Gasol/Lee all hold up all season (and if they can all play increased minutes) the Spurs might do okay, but against a team such as OKC the second unit will get bullied without a big who can bring some nasty.

[Chinook]

If LMA/Gasol/Lee all hold up all season (and if they can all play increased minutes) the Spurs might do okay, but against a team such as OKC the second unit will get bullied without a big who can bring some nasty.

But who cares about OKC this year? They might struggle against Memphis in that department as well. But it's not a big deal. Would be mad disappointed if it took more than five games to beat OKC in a series.

[sasaint]

If he's not taking the shots he's supposed to, I actually would like to see Pop get on him, but I didn't see that here, which then places the doubt if the shots he passed were good shots for him or not. I really only saw one 3 he should have taken. The other one had a hard close out by Leuer who is a 6'10" guy who could get to his shot. So yea, I really do question which are his shots. No one was screening for him to be open at the 3 (a point you brought up in terms of screening for shots)... also another reason why one has to look at what Pop has guys doing.

I do know when Dijon is taking shots he's not supposed to be taking bc he gets pulled. I have seen on occasion Pop pull someone for passing up shots, but not this game and I didn't see Pop get on Kyle.

"I'm not looking at Xs and Os..." :pop:

Personally, since I read that quote I've been scratching my head. How do you effectively evaluate a player if not in a context and part of the evaluation isn't how well he works in that context?

[sasaint]

Right now the Spurs have 3 players under contract that seem unable to contribute more than they already have. Anderson, Simmons and Deadman.
If we do not start unloading some of them and looking for answers elsewhere the team will be very thin at the bigs rotation and also at the guards.

It´s a really complicated situation, but as it is right now, y would consider cutting some players that have been unable to meet expectations in favor of new ones who might.

FIFY. :toast

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I have never seen Pop made at someone taking a open three.

Poor Nazr :cry

[Chinook]

Disagree with this.

They can play with Dedmon/Lee, but Lee and Dedmon have to be where they need to be. Last night, Dedmon was playing in spot where he has zero value majority of the time -- on the block with his hand in the air calling for the ball. When he's just standing on the block, not setting any screens on the perimeter, of course he will clog the painted area. But even if he was a shooter, the team doesn't have perimeter players that can get past their man off the dribble to create without a screen.

Dedmon needs to focus on setting screens on and off ball away from the basket and implementing the diving action after every screen. The opposing big, Lee, in this case, needs to be in the dunker spot awaiting sprinting back out to the perimeter to set another screen if the first screen set by Dedmon is contested well by the defense. There needs to be constant fluidity in this regard when you have two PnR divers. If they both can do this right, it will actually increase spacing on the weakside and in general.

Having shooting big men won't necessarily do any good because nobody on the bench is good enough ( with exception to Murray) to take their man off the dribble to create. There has to be a screen involved. If the screen is followed by a popping action then the long 2 or three point attempt by a big is the shot the team is likely getting most often in the long run ( not sustainable against great teams). If the screen is followed by a roll or dive to the basket then the open shots will come from better shooters, three point shooters on the weakside, like Mills, Green, Bertans ect. Those are the shots the Spurs need to take more often instead of long 2's or three point attempts taken by a big.

Spurs can play Lee and Dedmon together but they need to be used right in order to optimize spacing and opportunity for our perimeter players. Last night they were not.

It would be easier if Dedmon didn't seem like the better shooter of the two. I agree that it could work. But it takes time and high-IQ players. So I'm a little more worried. But it's not like they've had a lot of practice so far.

Someone needs to pull a Splitter and figure out how to use their body off the ball to help the offense, as you mentioned. Of course, they will only work if the perimeter guys are threats beyond the arc, and Anderson and Murray aren't right now. Get Patty in there and make Kyle shoot when he's open, and I think you see better offense from everyone involved.

[sasaint]

But who cares about OKC this year? They might struggle against Memphis in that department as well. But it's not a big deal. Would be mad disappointed if it took more than five games to beat OKC in a series.

Given the state of the league, perhaps you are right. I simply believe we need a reasonably capable player with the size of Aldridge who can and will bring the nasty when necessary.

[sasaint]

Maybe like this?

https://imageshack.com/i/plzk1zh9g

Yes! Like that! :lol Kills me! :toast

[SAGirl]

I appreciate your ardor, SAG, but I disagree. I think Pop has been past "green lights" since the Medium Three era began. Guys are allowed to take any shot they can hit with good efficiency. Danny and Patty can take any three they want. Parker and drive any time he wants. Manu can do whatever he wants. Anderson knows how to score. When he has the ball and is open or in position to attack a closeout, he needs to go for it. I have never seen Pop made at someone taking a open three.
I have to respect others views, specially bc I haven't followed the Spurs as long, but from what I have seen him do elsewhere, and what he's doing here, it's a different mentality he has entirely, which goes with Pop.

Maybe I do give Pop too much credit for everything, but it's how I have observed it. Only once in a whole season last year I saw Pop pull Kyle out bc of an offensive play. He moved out of position in a sort of hammer play, he wanted to get back on defense while the play was still going on and Patty threw a no look pass while Kyle had moved away from the corner. It was a huge mistake, lack of awareness and attention, which told me two things: his mind was on defense and he didn't care one shit to score (that was very, very early in the season) and he really caused the team to miss a possession, which earned him a benching for the entire game deservedly. That is the only time I have seen him getting benched for an offensive possession. If his mind wasn't on offense and he only cared to improve defensively, ok. I think that is what they got through his head. Eventually I think they pushed offensively to some degree. He scored more in the latter part of the season than he did the first couple of months for example.

Right now, I am not sure where his head is. In SL he had the mentality to attack. Here I am not sure, which makes me question what his focus is for the season. Maybe green lighting is the incorrect description, but he's not free IMO to take whatever he wants. Maybe he should. Maybe he needs to call a screen... maybe he needs to do more, but since he's not doing it, and I have seen him do it in other situations, I don't think that is his role TBH.

And if it is his role, then that is still on Pop to get on his arse about it behind closed doors I imagine and on team leaders to push him gently to get on with it already.

[MaNu4Tres]

In SL he had the mentality to attack. Here I am not sure, which makes me question what his focus is for the season. Maybe green lighting is the incorrect description, but he's not free IMO to take whatever he wants. Maybe he should. Maybe he needs to call a screen... maybe he needs to do more, but since he's not doing it, and I have seen him do it in other situations, I don't think that is his role TBH.

And if it is his role, then that is still on Pop to get on his arse about it behind closed doors I imagine and on team leaders to push him gently to get on with it already.

It's as simple as this.

In summer league, Anderson is playing against D-League talent and he can be effective against this level of talent with the ball. However, the NBA is a different animal entirely.

In a vacuum, Andersons' offensive value as a player is tied to touches, but against NBA level talent, he simply doesn't have enough athleticism to be effective with the ball against NBA defenders. Sure he can become more aggressive, but it's only going to create tough shots for him and his teammates because he can't turn the corner against a NBA caliber defender (even with a screen he's easy to defend). If you want Kyle to get the ball more often and be more aggressive, then you're going to be in the negatives the parts of the game he's playing in. He's not a play-maker for a playoff team, he's not. He's a role player that needs to be a secondary action option from primary creators after the defense already collapses, but the problem is he's not effective off the ball and he's as predictable as NBA players get in this situation. This is where Bertans has much more value for the role as the back up SF playing off Manu and Patty. IMO

[Raven]

lol bertans.. you're in for a rude awakening.

[Chinook]

Nah, Kyle can score against NBA players just fine. He was the Spurs' best player in summer league, so the guys guarding him had legit NBA talent (Warren, RHJ etc.). Even last night, he had no problems getting to his spot. Morris, despite his girth, just couldn't guard Anderson in the post. But Kyle needs to have that, "Fuck the play, I'm taking this one" attitude that Pop's spent years cultivating in Kawhi. If Anderson had a lot of turnovers or missed shots, that woudl be one thing. But him being passive his internal, not external.

[SAGirl]

Disagree with this.

They can play with Dedmon/Lee, but Lee and Dedmon have to be where they need to be. Last night, Dedmon was playing in spot where he has zero value majority of the time -- on the block with his hand in the air calling for the ball. When he's just standing on the block, not setting any screens on the perimeter, of course he will clog the painted area. But even if he was a shooter, the team doesn't have perimeter players that can get past their man off the dribble to create without a screen.

Dedmon needs to focus on setting screens on and off ball away from the basket and implementing the diving action after every screen. The opposing big, Lee, in this case, needs to be in the dunker spot awaiting sprinting back out to the perimeter to set another screen if the first screen set by Dedmon is contested well by the defense. There needs to be constant fluidity in this regard when you have two PnR divers. If they both can do this right, it will actually increase spacing on the weakside and in general.

Having shooting big men won't necessarily do any good because nobody on the bench is good enough ( with exception to Murray) to take their man off the dribble to create. There has to be a screen involved. If the screen is followed by a popping action then the long 2 or three point attempt by a big is the shot the team is likely getting most often in the long run ( not sustainable against great teams). If the screen is followed by a roll or dive to the basket then the open shots will come from better shooters, three point shooters on the weakside, like Mills, Green, Bertans ect. Those are the shots the Spurs need to take more often instead of long 2's or three point attempts taken by a big.

Spurs can play Lee and Dedmon together but they need to be used right in order to optimize spacing and opportunity for our perimeter players. Last night they were not.
Thanks for the explanation Manutres, much appreciated. :toast
I always try to pay attention to what Pop has guys doing, just as much as I look at them individually but my basketball knowledge is not that wide that I can foresee other ways they could have handled their spacing problems I saw.

All this blame is on Kyle for lack of screening and cutting, but I didn't see that from anyone else, which is why I pointed it out to ElNono, who was the first one to bring that up. In fact I saw Kyle screen for an opposing wing to be open for a 3, and I also saw him cut on occasion, but he was followed into the paint bc the post player didn't command that much attention I guess. Him screening is usually for someone else's benefit. No one was screening for him much though.

Maybe the issue is there is not a leader in that bench. I am not sure. The entire thing is not on him. I think he had one instance he passed up a good shot from 3, there were other times he was closed out hard. Let's say he could have taken the shots over the hard close out, but he's not comfortable with that, and I am sure Pop has gotten on guys whose shooting percentages dip about their shot selection in general. It's not a shot he's comfortable with. He could have called a screen though. Often there was no time. I suppose it's something in general he individually has to look at and correct, but as far as I saw the system wasn't effective. If more screening from Dedmon helps, then he's the one Pop needs to get on with. Instead of calling for the ball on the block for shots for himself, he needs to come around out of there and think of making a teammate better and if he rolls hard, I am sure he will get the ball, bc Kyle at least is a very unselfish player. I didn't see any of that.

Again I thank you for insightful contributions.
:bobo

[MaNu4Tres]

Thanks for the explanation Manutres, much appreciated. :toast
I always try to pay attention to what Pop has guys doing, just as much as I look at them individually but my basketball knowledge is not that wide that I can foresee other ways they could have handled their spacing problems I saw.

All this blame is on Kyle for lack of screening and cutting, but I didn't see that from anyone else, which is why I pointed it out to ElNono, who was the first one to bring that up. In fact I saw Kyle screen for an opposing wing to be open for a 3, and I also saw him cut on occasion, but he was followed into the paint bc the post player didn't command that much attention I guess. Him screening is usually for someone else's benefit. No one was screening for him much though.

Maybe the issue is there is not a leader in that bench. I am not sure. The entire thing is not on him. I think he had one instance he passed up a good shot from 3, there were other times he was closed out hard. Let's say he could have taken the shots over the hard close out, but he's not comfortable with that, and I am sure Pop has gotten on guys whose shooting percentages dip about their shot selection in general. It's not a shot he's comfortable with. He could have called a screen though. Often there was no time. I suppose it's something in general he individually has to look at and correct, but as far as I saw the system wasn't effective. If more screening from Dedmon helps, then he's the one Pop needs to get on with. Instead of calling for the ball on the block for shots for himself, he needs to come around out of there and think of making a teammate better and if he rolls hard, I am sure he will get the ball, bc Kyle at least is a very unselfish player. I didn't see any of that.

Again I thank you for insightful contributions.
:bobo

It's still very early. Hopefully Dedmon and Lee learn this and develop the type of chemistry and fluidity that's needed to optimize the space for the perimeter players.

[sasaint]

I think the only person who might have a yellow light is Murray.

HaHa! If only we could blend the aggression/passivity of Murray/Kyle for both players!

[Chinook]

I have to respect others views, specially bc I haven't followed the Spurs as long, but from what I have seen him do elsewhere, and what he's doing here, it's a different mentality he has entirely, which goes with Pop.

Maybe I do give Pop too much credit for everything, but it's how I have observed it. Only once in a whole season last year I saw Pop pull Kyle out bc of an offensive play. He moved out of position in a sort of hammer play, he wanted to get back on defense while the play was still going on and Patty threw a no look pass while Kyle had moved away from the corner. It was a huge mistake, lack of awareness and attention, which told me two things: his mind was on defense and he didn't care one shit to score (that was very, very early in the season) and he really caused the team to miss a possession, which earned him a benching for the entire game deservedly. That is the only time I have seen him getting benched for an offensive possession. If his mind wasn't on offense and he only cared to improve defensively, ok. I think that is what they got through his head. Eventually I think they pushed offensively to some degree. He scored more in the latter part of the season than he did the first couple of months for example.

Right now, I am not sure where his head is. In SL he had the mentality to attack. Here I am not sure, which makes me question what his focus is for the season. Maybe green lighting is the incorrect description, but he's not free IMO to take whatever he wants. Maybe he should. Maybe he needs to call a screen... maybe he needs to do more, but since he's not doing it, and I have seen him do it in other situations, I don't think that is his role TBH.

And if it is his role, then that is still on Pop to get on his arse about it behind closed doors I imagine and on team leaders to push him gently to get on with it already.

It's just possible that Kyle feels limited playing with guys who are or used to be higher up in the pecking order. Asserting yourself with more established guys isn't easy, but it's something that he had to be active in. Pop can't force this change. He would be even more awkward than what he's doing with Simmons. As far as other players, they can't afford to defer to a passive Anderson either. If he can't beat them, he can't lead them, or some other Spartan BS like that.

[spursistan]

Kyle certainly has a powerful a lobby on ST in a couple of prolific posters, but honestly it is becoming hard to keep driving the bandwagon when the player himself suffers from a severe lack of motor that was always going to limit his potential-- and that hasn't seemingly changed his outlook in couple of off-seasons with first team..

People rave about his supposed high BB IQ, instincts etc but those elements aren't going to be honed with his glaring deficiency in athleticism(mainly a first step quickness/explosiveness) not to mention his inability to work/embrace a shooting niche, thus far..The guy is simply a natural slowpoke who doesn't have the nimbleness of someone like Diaw to unlock his untapped versatility...

I have said in another thread that if the Spurs are to meet a realistic ceiling of WCF appearance, they are going to need--among other things-- Anderson cementing his place in the team future with an on-court performance similar to Danny Green 2011-2012 campaign..Not surprisingly, that was out first trip to the Western Conference Finals in 4 years..

Pop apparently loves him, so i would normally expect a guy like Simmons to be dangled and shipped before he he gets considered for a move, but it would remiss to not sniff around for deals if he doesn't show any sustained improvement by the trade deadline with how many other holes the team has to address..

[sasaint]

Thanks for the explanation Manutres, much appreciated. :toast
I always try to pay attention to what Pop has guys doing, just as much as I look at them individually but my basketball knowledge is not that wide that I can foresee other ways they could have handled their spacing problems I saw.

All this blame is on Kyle for lack of screening and cutting, but I didn't see that from anyone else, which is why I pointed it out to ElNono, who was the first one to bring that up. In fact I saw Kyle screen for an opposing wing to be open for a 3, and I also saw him cut on occasion, but he was followed into the paint bc the post player didn't command that much attention I guess. Him screening is usually for someone else's benefit. No one was screening for him much though.

Maybe the issue is there is not a leader in that bench. I am not sure. The entire thing is not on him. I think he had one instance he passed up a good shot from 3, there were other times he was closed out hard. Let's say he could have taken the shots over the hard close out, but he's not comfortable with that, and I am sure Pop has gotten on guys whose shooting percentages dip about their shot selection in general. It's not a shot he's comfortable with. He could have called a screen though. Often there was no time. I suppose it's something in general he individually has to look at and correct, but as far as I saw the system wasn't effective. If more screening from Dedmon helps, then he's the one Pop needs to get on with. Instead of calling for the ball on the block for shots for himself, he needs to come around out of there and think of making a teammate better and if he rolls hard, I am sure he will get the ball, bc Kyle at least is a very unselfish player. I didn't see any of that.

Again I thank you for insightful contributions.
:bobo

Isn't this possibly our (yours and mine) biggest disappointment? I know that we both thought (even at his tender age) that Kyle's leadership ability would really begin to express itself in the absence of Tim. I really thought he would begin to become a team leader in the vacuum left behind.

[MaNu4Tres]

Nah, Kyle can score against NBA players just fine. He was the Spurs' best player in summer league, so the guys guarding him had legit NBA talent (Warren, RHJ etc.). Even last night, he had no problems getting to his spot. Morris, despite his girth, just couldn't guard Anderson in the post. But Kyle needs to have that, "Fuck the play, I'm taking this one" attitude that Pop's spent years cultivating in Kawhi. If Anderson had a lot of turnovers or missed shots, that woudl be one thing. But him being passive his internal, not external.

Just because he "can" score against NBA players doesn't mean its an efficient or +EV proposition for the team. Sure he can, so can Lee in the post, so can Murray out on the perimeter. The doesn't mean the team should utilize it more.

Anderson can score in ISO situations, but those are inefficient opportunities that the team shouldn't prioritize.

[sasaint]

Nah, Kyle can score against NBA players just fine. He was the Spurs' best player in summer league, so the guys guarding him had legit NBA talent (Warren, RHJ etc.). Even last night, he had no problems getting to his spot. Morris, despite his girth, just couldn't guard Anderson in the post. But Kyle needs to have that, "Fuck the play, I'm taking this one" attitude that Pop's spent years cultivating in Kawhi. If Anderson had a lot of turnovers or missed shots, that woudl be one thing. But him being passive his internal, not external.


Gotta agree with you. If Kyle is to come even close to maximizing the talent that some of us have seen in him, Pop will have to light a bonfire under him - and probably keep it lit.

[Chinook]

Just because he "can" score against NBA players doesn't mean its an efficient or +EV proposition for the team. Sure he can, so can Lee in the post, so can Murray out on the perimeter. The doesn't mean the team should utilize it more.

Anderson can score in ISO situations, but those are inefficient opportunities that the team shouldn't prioritize.

Iso's are low priority /because/ they're inefficient usually. It's the same thing with post-ups and long-twos. If you're elite at that element, you can and should do it. Because it's not like Kyle had tunnel vision. He'll pass and pass well out of a double.

If Kyle can score as well as he usually does isoing against NBA players, you definitely want him to do that. There's not just one way to play basketball. Having a guy who's 6-9 and can score on anyone one-on-one is like the best weapon against GS that Pop could ask for considering who else is on the roster.

[sasaint]

It's just possible that Kyle feels limited playing with guys who are or used to be higher up in the pecking order. Asserting yourself with more established guys isn't easy, but it's something that he had to be active in. Pop can't force this change. He would be even more awkward than what he's doing with Simmons. As far as other players, they can't afford to defer to a passive Anderson either. If he can't beat them, he can't lead them, or some other Spartan BS like that.

If it is a matter of conscious deference, Pop can do something about it.

[MaNu4Tres]

Iso's are low priority /because/ they're inefficient usually. It's the same thing with post-ups and long-twos. If you're elite at that element, you can and should do it. Because it's not like Kyle had tunnel vision. He'll pass and pass well out of a double.

If Kyle can score as well as he usually does isoing against NBA players, you definitely want him to do that. There's not just one way to play basketball. Having a guy who's 6-9 and can score on anyone one-on-one is like the best weapon against GS that Pop could ask for considering who else is on the roster.

Are you implying that Kyle is elite in the NBA at ISOs?

He's not good enough to put him in ISO's, especially vs. GS. It's really that simple. No team in their right mind would double Kyle Anderson. His ceiling is a role player playing off primary action. He's not a go to player. Not in the NBA. He's not good enough to create good shots for himself, or teammates consistently and he's for damn sure not good enough to warrant double teams.

Sorry, but I disagree with your post entirely. And I'm not one to pick and choose my battles nor do I have an agenda to knock a player. I do, however, feel very strongly about my opinion of Kyle and his skill-set.

[SAGirl]

Nah, Kyle can score against NBA players just fine. He was the Spurs' best player in summer league, so the guys guarding him had legit NBA talent (Warren, RHJ etc.). Even last night, he had no problems getting to his spot. Morris, despite his girth, just couldn't guard Anderson in the post. But Kyle needs to have that, "Fuck the play, I'm taking this one" attitude that Pop's spent years cultivating in Kawhi. If Anderson had a lot of turnovers or missed shots, that woudl be one thing. But him being passive his internal, not external.
This point I do get. I think mentally he has to take more command for sure.

[Texas_Ranger]

no need to read cause i agree with the title

[dabom]

Iso's are low priority /because/ they're inefficient usually. It's the same thing with post-ups and long-twos. If you're elite at that element, you can and should do it. Because it's not like Kyle had tunnel vision. He'll pass and pass well out of a double.

If Kyle can score as well as he usually does isoing against NBA players, you definitely want him to do that. There's not just one way to play basketball. Having a guy who's 6-9 and can score on anyone one-on-one is like the best weapon against GS that Pop could ask for considering who else is on the roster.

Did you just say fathead can go ISO s golden state? :lmao

[bklynspursfan]

It's still very early, but with KA it's different than evaluating guys like Dedmon/Lee and other new guys. He's had more time here, and looks very similar to the player we saw last year. Which isn't necessarily a bad player, but not doing enough I guess for what we need.

It could just be a mental thing with him, but obviously whatever it is doesn't matter. He's gotta be more decisive and try and do more out there, especially if he wants to earn more minutes. The lack of shooting/pump faking is what worries me most. From what I was reading/hearing, it was something he wasn't doing in the SL. Bobo drove us crazy not taking open 3's, but maybe we looked passed it because he could do so much on the court and his impact was felt.

I'd give him a couple months, because it'll be an adjustment for him as well playing with new guys. But as a guy who's been on the bench and had time to study the system, he has to produce more. Lee has seemed to have his finger prints on some of these games more, and some of it is just being active and hard working. He seems comfortable out there, and KA needs to get to that point

[dabom]

Or in anyway suggesting fathead can be that guy. :lmao

[dabom]

I take it back Chinook. Don't post no more takes. :lmao

Your reputation is non existent anymore. :lpl

[BillMc]

Deadman should be moved quickly; Ayres would actually be an improvement.

Simmons, at age 27, still commits the same errors, trying to force himself where his skill level cannot take him.

Kyle has lacked a defined role, and that has contributed to his passivity. Out of your three "hopefuls" he is the only one in whom I have any real hope left.

Because they are more seasoned than most rookies, you might throw Lapro and Garino onto your list, too - not immediately, but perhaps before the season is over.

Good points.

By the way, you asked earlier where I'm moving. I moved from Riga to Kiev last May, and now headed to Kharkov next week. My second time living in Kharkov, was there from 2007 to 2014.

[SAGirl]

Isn't this possibly our (yours and mine) biggest disappointment? I know that we both thought (even at his tender age) that Kyle's leadership ability would really begin to express itself in the absence of Tim. I really thought he would begin to become a team leader in the vacuum left behind.
If he's going to be that, it has to be clear. It's not clear to me that he is. Maybe they want him to be, but he's not right now. Placing things in context:

Pop really sat Tony to give the ball to Kawhi, if we were paying attention. I think it's hard playing next to a vet to not defer, which is why those comments about Manu wanting to feel important and taking 35% of the posessions or something like 14 shots in 16 minutes were shocking to me. Anyways I made a huge deal of it, but since I didn't watch the game, maybe I got things out of proportion.

But if you are a humble 23 year old, how can you assert yourself playing next to that? No way, you sit back and watch the HoF vet player do work.

Even LMA had a bit of a stargaze playing next to Tim... ppl forget that... Kawhi had to be pushed each season, hard. Manu gave that statement in that article I posted just today that initially Pop had to call plays for Kawhi (thus why I think the offense looked so forced initially and mechanica when featuring Kawhi for the first time 2 seasons ago) and Tony had to set up a play for him. Only now his 5th? season he's calling his own number truly without anyone telling him to, or giving him the ball and we are talking about an MVP candidate even last season, and super talented player. It's a lot, to show in preseason coming off last season. What I am hoping is to see growth and development in that direction. It's complicated by others in the rotation (Dedmon mostly) being new himself, relatively inexperienced too (probably has nearly around the same minutes of NBA games as Kyle for example), then a change in the system.

I guess one game does not show for me all that can be, but there has to be improvement for sure.

[BillMc]

Maybe like this?

https://imageshack.com/i/plzk1zh9g
:lol

[dabom]

Pop called Kawhi the future of the franchise after 1 year. Pushing a young star is way fucking different than a fucking "didn't play the playoffs his first year" role player. Kawhi is naturally gifted and super talented. I can't say that about fathead. :lol

[MaNu4Tres]

And now we have people comparing Kawhis' situation and growth to Kyle's. My head hurts.

It's only Tuesday people.

[Chinook]

Are you implying that Kyle is elite in the NBA at ISOs?

Yes. He was elite last year. You might not believe he is, but the numbers bear that out.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/playtype/isolation/?CF=TeamNameAbbreviation*E*sas&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals

In the 97th percentile is elite by my book.

[spursistan]

And now we have people comparing Kawhis' situation and growth to Kyle's. My head hurts.

It's only Tuesday people.

Before SAGirl showed up in this place, i think i've read/heard the "next Diaw" or something here and elswhere..That Kyle has an "overrated" narrative to him, it is indisputable...He's really going to need to make some kind of leap this year or trade talk would be fair game..

[Chinook]

Good points.

By the way, you asked earlier where I'm moving. I moved from Riga to Kiev last May, and now headed to Kharkov next week. My second time living in Kharkov, was there from 2007 to 2014.

So do you just get by on English, or are you fluent in Russian and Latvian?

[Raven]

Before SAGirl showed up in this place, i think i've read/heard the "next Diaw" or something here and elswhere..That Kyle has an "overrated" narrative to him, it is indisputable...He's really going to need to make some kind of leap this year or trade talk would be fair game..

why would you trade him, it's not like he is paid much.. what do you expect to get..

[SAGirl]

Right now the Spurs have 3 players under contract that seem unable to contribute more than they already have. Anderson, Simmons and Deadman.
If we do not start unloading some of them and looking for answers elsewhere the team will be very thin at the bigs rotation and also at the guards.

It´s a really complicated situation, but as it is right now, y would consider cutting some players that have been unable to exceed expectations in favor of new ones who might.
The problem is that all those guys are on really cheap contracts and won't net equitable returns. Spurs have to find out if they will adjust b4 unloading. Kyle is not all he can be at this stage, I am sure. He's still far too young and could have just been entering the draft this season same as Garino in fact. Spurs would be foolish to unload him at this stage unless the trade is clearly beneficial which it won't be right now.

It's actually harder to play in the bench next to questionable talent save Lee (I think Murray has talent but he's limited right now and a rookie, he has little awareness of making others better, for starters) than it is to play a role within a starting lineup. The bench player in that situation has to do more and be more than if he was playing with the elite talent, so it's definitely too soon to get on Kyle's arse for one preseason game he was iffy... wasn't even terrible in fact, just not all that fans hoped. He will have to be improving in his assertiveness and aggression, but I think guys familiarity with each other, and the system will help, which is lacking here.

[SAGirl]

why would you trade him, it's not like he is paid much.. what do you expect to get..
lol ppl are so unrealistic concerning trades it's laughable. I enjoy discussion bc I still learn a lot and enjoy in general different opinions that are not strict trolling, but I am disregarding the trading suggestions entirely. It won't happen.

[BillMc]

So do you just get by on English, or are you fluent in Russian and Latvian?

A mix. I know some Russian. I studied in Moscow for almost two years, but foreign language is not my strength and frankly my grammar has deteriorated. My Latvian and Ukrainian are basic. I use Russian much more in Ukraine than in Latvia, and will use it more in Kharkov on the Eastern border than in Kiev, though I do use it here to order food, get directions, etc.

[MaNu4Tres]

Yes. He was elite last year. You might not believe he is, but the numbers bear that out.

I have to disagree.

Kyle's numbers may bear out, as you say, but you're not taking into consideration of when he was utilized in ISO's. Last year, most of his damage came in mop up duty vs. guys 10-14 on the opposing rosters. There's variables involved into your argument that you're not taking into account. If anything those numbers are irrelevant due to the small role he played in. The sample size in relevant situations, or good competition is certainly very very small and shouldn't be conclusive.

When it matters, Kyle Anderson isn't a go to player. If he is, then you're team is going to lose the time that he's being utilized as such. And he for damn sure won't warrant any double teams from any team that has half a brain. Smart teams or even dumb teams should be bright enough to not double.

[SAGirl]

And now we have people comparing Kawhis' situation and growth to Kyle's. My head hurts.

It's only Tuesday people.
I am only bringing it up bc if it took time for Kawhi, I don't think ppl are realistic to expect a huge leap from one season to the next when last season was technically the first one he really, really competed at the NBA level. In terms of level, they are much different, but in terms of progression it still took time. For a more realistic and maybe similar level player I may bring up CoJo who was very marginal and really started growing at a gradual place. It was very doubtful very early in his career that he was going to have a niche or even be a 6th man in a good team which he kind of is for the Raptors. Players are still young and still develop through time and experience and exposure regardless of ceiling. Maybe I make others heads hurt all season, but others make my head hurt with the shortsightedness all the time.

[dabom]

I have to disagree.

Kyle's numbers may bear out, as you say, but you're not taking into consideration of when he was utilized in ISO's. Last year, most of his damage came in mop up duty vs. guys 10-14 on the opposing rosters. There's variables involved into your argument that you're not taking into account. If anything those numbers are irrelevant due to the small role he played in. The sample size in relevant situations, or good competition is certainly very very small and shouldn't be conclusive.

When it matters, Kyle Anderson isn't a go to player. If he is, then you're team is going to lose the time that he's being utilized as such. And he for damn sure won't warrant any double teams from any team that has half a brain. Smart teams or even dumb teams should be bright enough to not double.

Playing vs dleague talent. :lol

Was a zero s OKC. I hope people can tell the difference. :lol

[MaNu4Tres]

I am only bringing it up bc if it took time for Kawhi, I don't think ppl are realistic to expect a huge leap from one season to the next when last season was technically the first one he really, really competed at the NBA level. In terms of level, they are much different, but in terms of progression it still took time. For a more realistic and maybe similar level player I may bring up CoJo who was very marginal and really started growing at a gradual place. It was very doubtful very early in his career that he was going to have a niche or even be a 6th man in a good team which he kind of is for the Raptors. Players are still young and still develop through time and experience and exposure regardless of ceiling. Maybe I make others heads hurt all season, but others make my head hurt with the shortsightedness all the time.


Kawhi was a starter his rookie year and by his second year was a Finals MVP.

Cojo proved to be solid by his second year as well, backing up Tony and beating out Patty for the back up PG role during the 12/13 season. The next year, Mills lost 20 pounds of crap (something Parker needs to do), and rightfully won the back up PG spot because he played lights out.

[gambit1990]

I have to disagree.

Kyle's numbers may bear out, as you say, but you're not taking into consideration of when he was utilized in ISO's. Last year, most of his damage came in mop up duty vs. guys 10-14 on the opposing rosters. There's variables involved into your argument that you're not taking into account. If anything those numbers are irrelevant due to the small role he played in. The sample size in relevant situations, or good competition is certainly very very small and shouldn't be conclusive.
exactly.

chinook :lol

[Chinook]

I have to disagree.

Kyle's numbers may bear out, as you say, but you're not taking into consideration of when he was utilized in ISO's. Last year, most of his damage came in mop up duty vs. guys 10-14 on the opposing rosters. There's variables involved into your argument that you're not taking into account. If anything those numbers are irrelevant due to the small role he played in. The sample size in relevant situations, or good competition is certainly very very small and shouldn't be conclusive.

I wouldn't be surprised if this video didn't have half of his successful iso plays on it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRxkobm87l8

Those are not plays in garbage time like you're assuming. What Kyle has going for him are two things: 1) He's too big to have his shot blocked most of the time and 2) He's really good at making contested shots. Both of those things negate the fact that he's too slow to move away from defenders. He doesn't really have to.

Anderson wasn't a garbage-time player. He was fully in the rotation and played against rotation players. He had his down moments, but he also did a lot of good things, which the numbers reflect. Acknowledging the latter is fine; using that to mask the former isn't. He's a good iso scorer who deserves and needs to take more attempts. He doesn't have to be in the top four percent of the league to warrant those touches. He can drop to the 78th percentile and still be great there.

[Chinook]

exactly.

chinook :lol

Damned hanger-on.

[gambit1990]

Spurs would be foolish to unload him at this stage unless the trade is clearly beneficial which it won't be right now.
so the spurs shouldn't make a trade if it is bad? wow, you got some insight.

[dabom]

Chinook just said fathead would be unstoppable vs the fucking warriors. Add that to the list gambit. :lol

[MaNu4Tres]

I wouldn't be surprised if this video didn't have half of his successful iso plays on it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRxkobm87l8

Those are not plays in garbage time like you're assuming. What Kyle has going for him are two things: 1) He's too big to have his shot blocked most of the time and 2) He's really good at making contested shots. Both of those things negate the fact that he's too slow to move away from defenders. He doesn't really have to.

Anderson wasn't a garbage-time player. He was fully in the rotation and played against rotation players. He had his down moments, but he also did a lot of good things, which the numbers reflect. Acknowledging the latter is fine; using that to mask the former isn't. He's a good iso scorer who deserves and needs to take more attempts. He doesn't have to be in the top four percent of the league to warrant those touches. He can drop to the 78th percentile and still be great there.

Of course, a highlight video, only highlighting shots he made.

A lot of those shots were within the offense. I never said he only played vs. garbage time players, I said most of his ISO situations came from garbage time -- when Manu or Patty weren't on the floor. Sure there's going to be some moments when he has an ISO situation with Manu/Patty, but the Spurs never went to that during relevant parts of a game. If so it was out of desperation.

[SAGirl]

I have to disagree.

Kyle's numbers may bear out, as you say, but you're not taking into consideration of when he was utilized in ISO's. Last year, most of his damage came in mop up duty vs. guys 10-14 on the opposing rosters. There's variables involved into your argument that you're not taking into account. If anything those numbers are irrelevant due to the small role he played in. The sample size in relevant situations, or good competition is certainly very very small and shouldn't be conclusive.

When it matters, Kyle Anderson isn't a go to player. If he is, then you're team is going to lose the time that he's being utilized as such. And he for damn sure won't warrant any double teams from any team that has half a brain. Smart teams or even dumb teams should be bright enough to not double.
He still played over 1200 minutes. Though I am not advocating they go to isos. I think he has to work on a bailout possession shot, bc he's been getting those shots and will likely get more. He still started games and in the latter part of the season, once Tim got injured and from there on out he averaged 20 minutes per game the rest of the season. It's hard to argue regardless, that 20 minutes per game from January through April are insignificant or all garbage.

This season is the tougher test though and Pop has to have some kind of system out there.

[gambit1990]

Chinook just said fathead would be unstoppable vs the fucking warriors. Add that to the list gambit. :lol
the list is getting too long tbh, seems like it grows everyday :lol

[dabom]

the list is getting too long tbh, seems like it grows everyday :lol

Not gonna lie. I'm glad I exposed that mtfkr. Everyone else can see it now too. :lol

[bklynspursfan]

Kawhi was a starter his rookie year and by his second year was a Finals MVP.

Cojo proved to be solid by his second year as well, backing up Tony and beating out Patty for the back up PG role during the 12/13 season. The next year, Mills lost 20 pounds of crap (something Parker needs to do), and rightfully won the back up PG spot because he played lights out.

Not to throw this thread off, yes Patty got himself in great shape. But from what I'm reading TP and he weigh about the same. And TP is 2 inches taller lol TP actually looked to be in good shape with France and even now.

[Chinook]

Of course, a highlight video, only highlighting shots he made.

Yes. We know he made 60 percent of his iso attempts already. You assumed that those were against poor competition. But the video chronicling a large number of them disagree. You're right that it doesn't show his misses, but there weren't all that many to show. It's not like with Murray's college highlights.


A lot of those shots were within the offense.

Yeah, and they were still iso shots, just like LMA's last night.


I never said he only played vs. garbage time players, I said most of his ISO situations came from garbage time -- when Manu or Patty weren't on the floor.

But there's no proof of that at all. He's clearly breaking people down and scoring or passing with starters in the game. I doubt the highlight creator would've biased his clips away from garbage time.


Sure there's going to be some moments when he has an ISO situation with Manu/Patty, but the Spurs never went to that during relevant parts of a game. If so it was out of desperation.

I think we all know that the Spurs haven't made Anderson a top option of the big club for any significant stretch. That's sort of the point of this debate. No matter what the reason, when Anderson got the ball in those situations, he did well. The only logical response is to put him in those situations more often to see how he does. There's no guarantee he'll be able to handle it for sure. But Pop has to find out. As I said, it's his most important task this season.

[Brazil]

I disagree with the idea that Kyle issue on offense is mental... the fact he does not take open 3s is not only related to mental issues, it is just he has not the release to take them... a wide open three has another definition for him, a wide open 3 for Danny is equivalent at a barely open 3 for Kyle

[Chinook]

the list is getting too long tbh, seems like it grows everyday :lol

:lol Okay, now this is just too much. I think you guys just moved from annoying posters to minor antagonists in a kids live-action movie. I'm just imagining you guys sitting at your computers in leather jackets and slicked-back hair now.

[dabom]

Anyone showing "regular season highlights" when he clearly shot 30% from the field last playoffs. :lmao

[spursistan]

Damn this thread already has "Was Aldridge worth it?" potential :lol..

[SAGirl]

Kawhi was a starter his rookie year and by his second year was a Finals MVP.

Cojo proved to be solid by his second year as well, backing up Tony and beating out Patty for the back up PG role during the 12/13 season. The next year, Mills lost 20 pounds of crap (something Parker needs to do), and rightfully won the back up PG spot because he played lights out.
I don't think what you consider Kyle then bc he was just as solid as well, beating out 3 guys for his spot: Butler, Simms and Martin, clearly, without a doubt in his second season and was averaging 20 minutes from January-April in his second season.

he came into a team that was stacked his first season with no chance to get in the rotation anywhere. He needed work but it's hard to argue he couldn't have played when he was not expected to, he would only have gotten in the way.

I get it you won't be convinced to see the point I am trying to make, so I won't try to. Within context it's not that different in terms of progression.

[gambit1990]

Not gonna lie. I'm glad I exposed that mtfkr. Everyone else can see it now too. :lol
:toast

everyone can see it but him.

[dabom]

I disagree with the idea that Kyle issue on offense is mental... the fact he does not take open 3s is not only related to mental issues, it is just he has not the release to take them... a wide open three has another definition for him, a wide open 3 for Danny is equivalent at a barely open 3 for Kyle

Dude is like fucking wide open for "him" too. :lol

[SAGirl]

Damn this thread already has "Was Aldridge worth it?" potential :lol..
Does that one has an answer? bc I think ppl are still split on that TBH

[Chinook]

I disagree with the idea that Kyle issue on offense is mental... the fact he does not take open 3s is not only related to mental issues, it is just he has not the release to take them... a wide open three has another definition for him, a wide open 3 for Danny is equivalent at a barely open 3 for Kyle

But there is more that goes into being open than just release time. There's also launch point and trajectory. The reason why Jimmer was so useless is because the release was slow and incredibly low. Bonner's wasn't slow, but the angle was so stupid that it was easy to run him off. Martin's angle and speed was fine, but his release point being off to the side meant he could only really shoot from one side of the floor.

Anderson certainly has enough time to get his shot off without worrying about it being disrupted, especially considering that his release has improved each year.

[J_Paco]

It just blows my mind that people (Pop included) think Kyle Anderson can ever work next to two bigs.

Exactly, he'll never, ever succeed at SF (too unathletic/slow) and the sooner Pop understands that the better. I've been saying for the better part of two seasons that he needs to be moved to PF full-time. Yes, he's at a size disadvantage (generously listed at 6'9", 230 lbs.) but his lack of explosiveness/quickness/athleticism would be less of a hindrance. Kyle would also be able to give the team some of things Boris could namely passing.

[Brazil]

But there is more that goes into being open than just release time. There's also launch point and trajectory. The reason why Jimmer was so useless is because the release was slow and incredibly low. Bonner's wasn't slow, but the angle was so stupid that it was easy to run him off. Martin's angle and speed was fine, but his release point being off to the side meant he could only really shoot from one side of the floor.

Anderson certainly has enough time to get his shot off without worrying about it being disrupted, especially considering that his release has improved each year.

Not sure I understood the point you make

Anderson put the ball on the floor on open 3s not because he is afraid but because he is not comfortable with his feet, with the distance of the defender, he rather has a defender close to him and shoot over him than shooting with no defender in front of him. There is a reason dude is "good" on Iso and shooting over his defender because this is the spacing he likes.

I have relatively speaking the same issue, my brain does not like empty space, I like having a dude close to me it helps me to position myself on the court. As I'm not tall, I am lousy basketball player.

[Chinook]

Not sure I understood the point you make

That Anderson can shoot when a defender is close to him because he's taller with a high release point. Spacing is an optimization of many factors, not just two.


Anderson put the ball on the floor on open 3s not because he is afraid but because he is not comfortable with his feet, with the distance of the defender, he rather has a defender close to him and shoot over him than shooting with no defender in front of him. There is a reason dude is "good" on Iso and shooting over his defender because this is the spacing he likes.

I have relatively speaking the same issue, my brain does not like empty space, I like having a dude close to me it helps me to position myself on the court. As I'm not tall, I am lousy basketball player.

Then all he has to do is wait longer before shooting. But anyway, getting over that discomfort is definitely a mental issue. There is definitely something to be "too open", going by some comments during games. But that seems separate from issues with his release time.

[gambit1990]

I don't think what you consider Kyle then bc he was just as solid as well, beating out 3 guys for his spot: Butler, Simms and Martin, clearly, without a doubt in his second season and was averaging 20 minutes from January-April in his second season.
-pop didn't have to play butler much in the regular season because he knew what he could get out of the vet.

-simmons was an undrafted rookie.

-martin was on the team for what, less than a quarter of season :lol

[SAGirl]

It's as simple as this.

In summer league, Anderson is playing against D-League talent and he can be effective against this level of talent with the ball. However, the NBA is a different animal entirely.

In a vacuum, Andersons' offensive value as a player is tied to touches, but against NBA level talent, he simply doesn't have enough athleticism to be effective with the ball against NBA defenders. Sure he can become more aggressive, but it's only going to create tough shots for him and his teammates because he can't turn the corner against a NBA caliber defender (even with a screen he's easy to defend). If you want Kyle to get the ball more often and be more aggressive, then you're going to be in the negatives the parts of the game he's playing in. He's not a play-maker for a playoff team, he's not. He's a role player that needs to be a secondary action option from primary creators after the defense already collapses, but the problem is he's not effective off the ball and he's as predictable as NBA players get in this situation. This is where Bertans has much more value for the role as the back up SF playing off Manu and Patty. IMO
I disagree but won't convince you otherwise and I tire, same as everyone I guess. the bench can't rely on Manu for everything anymore in terms of creation. I think we even take for granted that he won't fall off this season. Not saying that he will, but he's 39. I wouldn't take him for granted. In the playoffs his usage dipped to 16% as did his efficiency. He was effective shooting the 3 but other things from his game disappeared. It's become hard for him at this point. Patty is a damn good shooter, but like all shooters the jumpshot comes and goes. He can be scorching one series then fall back down to earth the following, or do that in games. I think the bigs situation is just as important or more significant even than Kyle, bc it's hard to get anything going if the bigs are not decent and Dedmon at least hasn't been and him and Lee together is not good for others. In fact Pop kept Dedmon to a min. Bertans I have only seen as a 4 and he hasn't been great outside of a game that he made shots, and he has been very questionable on defense. I actually would like him to get in the rotation, and I am hopeful for him, but no way is he a reason to dump Kyle.

[Brazil]

That Anderson can shoot when a defender is close to him because he's taller with a high release point. Spacing is an optimization of many factors, not just two.



Then all he has to do is wait longer before shooting. But anyway, getting over that discomfort is definitely a mental issue. There is definitely something to be "too open", going by some comments during games. But that seems separate from issues with his release time.

Except this all and good but and I think this is the consensus he will have to play PF and as a PF he won't be always the taller guy.

[Raven]

KA is good. Don't be ridiculous people.

[SAGirl]

Not sure I understood the point you make

Anderson put the ball on the floor on open 3s not because he is afraid but because he is not comfortable with his feet, with the distance of the defender, he rather has a defender close to him and shoot over him than shooting with no defender in front of him. There is a reason dude is "good" on Iso and shooting over his defender because this is the spacing he likes.

I have relatively speaking the same issue, my brain does not like empty space, I like having a dude close to me it helps me to position myself on the court. As I'm not tall, I am lousy basketball player.
Actually this is an interesting point Brazil!! lol
I will explain shortly, or try to. I will make Manutres head hurt again. :lol
I once read that Dirk was relatively ordinary looking his first season, but he learned to shoot contested shots, and he actually waited for the opponent to guard him bc he could get the sense of where the contest was going to come from or whatever, then go to his moves (and bait opponents into the foul)
Again.... not saying Kyle is Dirk dang it. (I didn't say he was Kawhi either)... but there is something there concerning how comfortable a guy is shooting.

Regardless, as far as I am concerned, I am all for shooting within the offense, screening and all that jazz. Problem is that we didn't see it, and the whole shizz is not on him, I am talking about others screening too.

Watch just the first 20 seconds of this video, the first one is a 3 kyle made off the dribble from a screen by Kirk. Why the heck was he getting stuck in no man land in this game with no one to offer a goddamned screen. That shot he made there is makeable for him any freaking league, but what that shot isn't, is a shot over a hard close out by a 6'10 player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz-x5b7O9mQ

[SAGirl]

KA is good. Don't be ridiculous people.
PPl are this ridiculous, based off a preseason game, even forecasting full careers for guys. lol
:lmao

[gambit1990]

PPl are this ridiculous, based off a preseason game, even forecasting full careers for guys. lol
maybe we're drawing our conclusions from the fact that:

He still played over 1200 minutes.

[Chinook]

Except this all and good but and I think this is the consensus he will have to play PF and as a PF he won't be always the taller guy.

He'll always be taller than Green, though. So he'll always need less time. Also, PFs would probably be slower at closing out, both because of their physical makeup and because of where they tend to be on the floor. Again, I think spacing is a lot more complicated that folks initially believe.

[GSH]

That Anderson can shoot when a defender is close to him because he's taller with a high release point. Spacing is an optimization of many factors, not just two.

Then all he has to do is wait longer before shooting. But anyway, getting over that discomfort is definitely a mental issue. There is definitely something to be "too open", going by some comments during games. But that seems separate from issues with his release time.


I saw an interview with one of the Spurs last week (forget which one) and he was talking about how Chip has been working to get him to lower his release point. The context sounded to me like they are trying to speed up his release by getting him to lower his release point.

I've never heard anyone talk about the mental aspect of spacing the way Brazil did - especially guys' brains not liking open space. But I think it's pretty plausible. Shooters in basketball, like football kickers, golfers (putting), baseball pitchers, are all incredibly influenced by the mental outlook. And it is more than just confidence and visualization, which is why it can be so hard for some guys to overcome. I know the brain's perception of open space is very much a right-brain/left-brain thing. So, yeah, I can believe that Kyle could be less comfortable shooting when he's too wide open.

[SAGirl]

Exactly,:he'll never, ever succeed at SF (too unathletic/slow) and the sooner Pop understands that the better. I've been saying for the better part of two seasons that he needs to be moved to PF full-time. Yes, he's at a size disadvantage (generously listed at 6'9", 230 lbs.) but his lack of explosiveness/quickness/athleticism would be less of a hindrance. Kyle would also be able to give the team some of things Boris could namely passing.
/sigh I see your point. I acknowledge it, I understand it, I even agreed with it. Pop agreed with it, he said at least one of the spots he saw KA could play was the PF spot, but I am going with what we have.

At this point, I am limiting my own discourse to what I see in games Pop do, bc otherwise there is no end to this as it is. I think 2 things caused him to play as a wing:

1.) the biggest one, and maybe the most important reason and it trumps all others right now: they need him to. Sincerely and frankly. I wanted J.Simms to pan out, I really did. I thought if he did pan out it would allow KA to gravitate toward other spots that could be better for him like the 4 spot, but this is the situation:

For a stretch 4, strict stretch 4, they have a legit and good prospect in Bertans, who is as pure of a sniper as you can find.

For the wing players they have: crickets.... J.Simms ehhh I will leave that one for others to argue, but JSimms is not better than slowmo. Just is not and maybe that is where it ends for Pop. They need KA to play wing minutes. Really none of this would be a big problem if he was more willing with his freaking 3, although he's a versatile player who can do more than that, but passing up shots that are good for him has to stop. Now a shot over a hard close out I don't call a good shot, but just call a screen dude, then go to your shot and have more of a shooter mentality. Not everything was a hard close out (not everything was wide open either).

2.) it's such a small consideration in comparison to the first point that this one is silly. He may encounter strong and difficult matches at the PF spot that make it situational defensively for him at this point in his career and you can't have him in situational roles exclusively if you are the coach and want to make him a part of a permanent rotation.

[gambit1990]

the excuses being made for anderson...

[Raven]

Except this all and good but and I think this is the consensus he will have to play PF and as a PF he won't be always the taller guy.

He can easily play SF.

[dabom]

the excuses being made for anderson...

"Too wide open" A bad thing. :lmao

WTF?

That just means he sucks to me. :lmao

[Raven]

Exactly,:he'll never, ever succeed at SF (too unathletic/slow) and the sooner Pop understands that the better. I've been saying for the better part of two seasons that he needs to be moved to PF full-time. Yes, he's at a size disadvantage (generously listed at 6'9", 230 lbs.) but his lack of explosiveness/quickness/athleticism would be less of a hindrance. Kyle would also be able to give the team some of things Boris could namely passing.

lol, he has no problem at getting clean shots, his stroke is good and he has little problem on D. This is as good of a prospect for a position as you can ask for. The rest is up to the system, experience and just having balls. If he can't make an open shot despite having the stroke to do it, then it doesn't matter what his position is.

[Chinook]

I saw an interview with one of the Spurs last week (forget which one) and he was talking about how Chip has been working to get him to lower his release point. The context sounded to me like they are trying to speed up his release by getting him to lower his release point.

I've never heard anyone talk about the mental aspect of spacing the way Brazil did - especially guys' brains not liking open space. But I think it's pretty plausible. Shooters in basketball, like football kickers, golfers (putting), baseball pitchers, are all incredibly influenced by the mental outlook. And it is more than just confidence and visualization, which is why it can be so hard for some guys to overcome. I know the brain's perception of open space is very much a right-brain/left-brain thing. So, yeah, I can believe that Kyle could be less comfortable shooting when he's too wide open.

I've heard announcers posit that someone could be too wide open on misses, though they might've just been joking. I think it has to do with timing as well. Players often to just practice shooting, but they also practice situational shooting, like getting shots off the catch from a PnR kick-out. Those plays have a certain rhythm, including the close-out. So when you don't have anyone running out on your, the timing is off. Thinking happens rather than just reacting.

That is a similar thing to what I wondered happened to Green last year. He went from getting passes for shots with certain timing to getting the less predictable timing of post kick-outs.

[GSH]

2.) it's such a small consideration in comparison to the first point that this one is silly. He may encounter strong and difficult matches at the PF spot that make it situational defensively for him at this point in his career and you can't have him in situational roles exclusively if you are the coach and want to make him a part of a permanent rotation.


Diaw's ball-handling and passing skills were/are a huge asset for him, even playing as a big. But to be able to play big, he had to bulk up - a lot. I think Kyle, and the Spurs, could be a lot better off if they just lock in on making him a versatile 4 and not keep experimenting. He's got good length, and he's shown a knack (and a willingness) for rebounding. And I'm pretty sold on him being able to sneak out and knock down 3's at a respectable clip. I'm not joking when I say that he should go see whoever helped Draymond bulk up a few seasons ago. I know that not respectable Spurs fan would condone such a thing, but that's the state of the industry.

Kyle's not a point, nor a point-forward. And he just isn't quick enough to slash like a small forward.

[DJR210]

I'm holding SAGirl personally accountable for this shit

[Brazil]

Actually this is an interesting point Brazil!! lol
I will explain shortly, or try to. I will make Manutres head hurt again. :lol
I once read that Dirk was relatively ordinary looking his first season, but he learned to shoot contested shots, and he actually waited for the opponent to guard him bc he could get the sense of where the contest was going to come from or whatever, then go to his moves (and bait opponents into the foul)
Again.... not saying Kyle is Dirk dang it. (I didn't say he was Kawhi either)... but there is something there concerning how comfortable a guy is shooting.

Regardless, as far as I am concerned, I am all for shooting within the offense, screening and all that jazz. Problem is that we didn't see it, and the whole shizz is not on him, I am talking about others screening too.

Watch just the first 20 seconds of this video, the first one is a 3 kyle made off the dribble from a screen by Kirk. Why the heck was he getting stuck in no man land in this game with no one to offer a goddamned screen. That shot he made there is makeable for him any freaking league, but what that shot isn't, is a shot over a hard close out by a 6'10 player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz-x5b7O9mQ

Yes I like your comparaison with Dirk... Dirk is great Iso player, he obviously loves using his height to shoot over his defender, he does not have the quickest release ever and obviously don't mind having a guy close to him to work his step back or in post up situation. And you also right he actually "waited" his opponent a lot back in the days and still do it.

Nevertheless Dirk is 7' PF shooting 3s like others shoot lay ups, he does not need the ball in his hands all the time to be efficient, can play off the ball too and is a HOFer so what Dirk did to exploit his unique skillset is not even indicative of how Kyle could evolve tbh.

[BillMc]

New Jimmer thread potential, tbh...

[Brazil]

He'll always be taller than Green, though. So he'll always need less time. Also, PFs would probably be slower at closing out, both because of their physical makeup and because of where they tend to be on the floor. Again, I think spacing is a lot more complicated that folks initially believe.

PFs will be obviously slower (see Dirk shooting 3s and the headache for defense) but again it does not seem to matter because he is reluctant to shoot any wide open anyway. And again this is what I'm saying spacing is sometimes a problem for some players. IIRC there are some stuff about guys like Lebron or Harden shooting a better % from 3s when contested than open unlike the "natural" guys like allen, korver, Durant and co.

[Brazil]

He can easily play SF.

of course he can... in theory he can also play SG

[Chinook]

PFs will be obviously slower (see Dirk shooting 3s and the headache for defense) but again it does not seem to matter because he is reluctant to shoot any wide open anyway. And again this is what I'm saying spacing is sometimes a problem for some players. IIRC there are some stuff about guys like Lebron or Harden shooting a better % from 3s when contested than open unlike the "natural" guys like allen, korver, Durant and co.

And I don't disagree with you at all that that's a possibility. That is definitely mental, though. If the dude can hit contested threes at a high rate, there will be room for those shots in the offense. Leonard takes at least one of those a game.

[Brazil]

New Jimmer thread potential, tbh...

:lol I see what you did here

[sasaint]

If he's going to be that, it has to be clear. It's not clear to me that he is. Maybe they want him to be, but he's not right now. Placing things in context:

Pop really sat Tony to give the ball to Kawhi, if we were paying attention. I think it's hard playing next to a vet to not defer, which is why those comments about Manu wanting to feel important and taking 35% of the posessions or something like 14 shots in 16 minutes were shocking to me. Anyways I made a huge deal of it, but since I didn't watch the game, maybe I got things out of proportion.

But if you are a humble 23 year old, how can you assert yourself playing next to that? No way, you sit back and watch the HoF vet player do work.

Even LMA had a bit of a stargaze playing next to Tim... ppl forget that... Kawhi had to be pushed each season, hard. Manu gave that statement in that article I posted just today that initially Pop had to call plays for Kawhi (thus why I think the offense looked so forced initially and mechanica when featuring Kawhi for the first time 2 seasons ago) and Tony had to set up a play for him. Only now his 5th? season he's calling his own number truly without anyone telling him to, or giving him the ball and we are talking about an MVP candidate even last season, and super talented player. It's a lot, to show in preseason coming off last season. What I am hoping is to see growth and development in that direction. It's complicated by others in the rotation (Dedmon mostly) being new himself, relatively inexperienced too (probably has nearly around the same minutes of NBA games as Kyle for example), then a change in the system.

I guess one game does not show for me all that can be, but there has to be improvement for sure.

Perhaps my initial comment was too broad/general. I don't expect him to become a first unit team leader this season. But I think I do expect him to take more control and exercise more leadership with bench units. He doesn't spend all of his time on the floor with Manu. Even so, he just needs to become more assertive all around in order to have any future here. It is almost inconceivable that he could be traded this season - only as filler in a deal involving a bigger contract to shore up a position that craters.

[Brazil]

And I don't disagree with you at all that that's a possibility. That is definitely mental, though. If the dude can hit contested threes at a high rate, there will be room for those shots in the offense. Leonard takes at least one of those a game.

absolutely but it is a big IF

[sasaint]

New Jimmer thread potential, tbh...

:lol Don't go there. As questionable as the younger/newer prospects look Surt****r might make a convert of me... :depressed

[SAGirl]

Diaw's ball-handling and passing skills were/are a huge asset for him, even playing as a big. But to be able to play big, he had to bulk up - a lot. I think Kyle, and the Spurs, could be a lot better off if they just lock in on making him a versatile 4 and not keep experimenting. He's got good length, and he's shown a knack (and a willingness) for rebounding. And I'm pretty sold on him being able to sneak out and knock down 3's at a respectable clip. I'm not joking when I say that he should go see whoever helped Draymond bulk up a few seasons ago. I know that not respectable Spurs fan would condone such a thing, but that's the state of the industry.

Kyle's not a point, nor a point-forward. And he just isn't quick enough to slash like a small forward.
I am willing to concede all points in this theoretical debate as far as suggestions that would be better for his game bc they are hypotheticals. If he flunks this shit up and Pop moves him in his experiments I will give you points (I know it's not your thing, just saying this is not my personal pet peeve lol).

Really, I am not forcefully arguing for a role, more than anything I am just observing him, what he's doing, what Pop has him doing, other guys he's in there with and what they are running. At this point, I think this shit is on Pop, he said he would figure this out, but it's within context. It's not like they will move guys around for him or anything. For example, they have serious spacing issues that is evident, playing the two bigs requires a craftiness lacking from Dedmon's game to begin with, but they are not going to bench Lee to play Kyle at the 4, when Lee is a big contributor to them in the paint and on the boards, plus is active as a garbage man, who gets some shots up that way. So KA might start growing as a 4 this season, but they lose some things Lee provides that Dedmon doesn't do (uggghhhhh) and meantime who are they playing in the wing? (and they also have another worthy prospect in Bertans, and then LJC, at the 4. They have depth at the 4 spot, but almost nothing on the wing after Kiwi/Danny/Manu). Then it's more alarming when one realizes Manu can't play that many minutes and will be absent in games. That is when I realize arguing for him at PF is moot right this second. Heck maybe they didn't want him to bulk up so much after all lol.

Then within that role and this offense I think we do have to allow some games, for chemistry to develop, for the bigs to know what they are doing, for him to know where his shots are going to come from, get his chemistry and 2 man game going with Lee or Dedmon or whoever, etc.

SL didn't help much in this context, bc it's not even the talent gap (he was always competing against the best wing or big on the other team, all NBA players youngs like Trey Lyles), its more than anything the role was different, where his shots are coming from is different, what he's doing is different. They sent him to play strictly as a big, but here is strictly a wing so he has to find his shots within this context which is different. I think they will look better as unit with time and I do hope Pop pushes that shooting along, even green lighting the calling up of a screen to get his shot off if he needs it bc offense went nowhere and he got stuck for example.

I do foresee Manu and Mills bailing out posessions but hopefully they continue to push his buttons along. I will look at it as a progression this season. I want him to be better by ASB than this game for example. If he isn't then it's a disappointment (everyone should be too, just more chemistry and Pop figuring things out)
:flag:

[SAGirl]

I found this on PTR and it was too funny:
https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/KR0ZHfDKUKMCM4mh0GfGhw0yCfc=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7242037/maxresdefault.jpg

[SAGirl]

Perhaps my initial comment was too broad/general. I don't expect him to become a first unit team leader this season. But I think I do expect him to take more control and exercise more leadership with bench units. He doesn't spend all of his time on the floor with Manu. Even so, he just needs to become more assertive all around in order to have any future here. It is almost inconceivable that he could be traded this season - only as filler in a deal involving a bigger contract to shore up a position that craters.
I agree. I hope he finds his groove. I still have reservations with Dedmon and Lee working out TBH. Kyle likes to drive. Ppl may criticize that or his effectiveness but he was effective in the paint last season. He shot 60% in the paint and overall made good decisions to pass or go for his shot. He's not generally this inefficient in the paint. He drove in the Suns game and scored or got fouled, he drove here and got fouled. He can't drive with these two bigs that often, his shots will be met at the rim, and he can't pass to the "pop" man who doesn't really pop. I think they would be better with Bertans but that would mean Bertans has to hold up defensively and I didn't see that from him. So it's not just him that have to be better, several others have to be better.

[bklynspursfan]

I agree. I hope he finds his groove. I still have reservations with Dedmon and Lee working out TBH. Kyle likes to drive. Ppl may criticize that or his effectiveness but he was effective in the paint last season. He shot 60% in the paint and overall made good decisions to pass or go for his shot. He's not generally this inefficient in the paint. He drove in the Suns game and scored or got fouled, he drove here and got fouled. He can't drive with these two bigs that often, his shots will be met at the rim, and he can't pass to the "pop" man who doesn't really pop. I think they would be better with Bertans but that would mean Bertans has to hold up defensively and I didn't see that from him. So it's not just him that have to be better, several others have to be better.

It may turn out to be better with Bertans/Lee, but just to be safe, KA should start to work a little outside his comfort zone. He's not in a position where he's like great at like 1 thing, so he can be asked to do that 1 thing and be great at it. (Like a 3 &D guy, or shot blocker) He's trying to get more minutes and ultimately earn a better contract.

Many have compared him to Diaw, but what made Diaw great is he really did a bit of everything, from spotting up and hitting 3's, working in the post and taking advantage of mismatches, being the ball handler, etc...

Even early on in TP's career, he loved to drive and finish in the paint. He was always among the leaders of points in the paint, even at his size. But when he really became elite was when he got the mid-range shot going, and forced defenses to respect that shot. You couldn't sag off him anymore. KA has to step outside his comfort zone IMO if he wants to be successful here. It seems like he is capable, but doesn't always feel comfortable doing so. Guess we'll see as the season progresses

[BOHOLANO#21]

I was at the game vs Pistons. Slowmo has not changed. Bertans should take his minutes. Spurs should cut Slowmo and sign Garino. Just my two cents.

[jyra]

I found this on PTR and it was too funny:
https://cdn0.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/KR0ZHfDKUKMCM4mh0GfGhw0yCfc=/800x0/filters:no_upscale()/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/7242037/maxresdefault.jpg

Sry but I just had to do it..
https://abload.de/img/zwischenablage01u1ugv.jpg

[SAGirl]

Sry but I just had to do it..
https://abload.de/img/zwischenablage01u1ugv.jpg
:lol:toast

[TD 21]

I never saw it and I don't get the Spurs' obsession with him. The high IQ talk is overstated because he's light skinned and lacks athleticism. I say this because I've seen nothing to suggest he's even a definitively better passer than Simmons, yet he doesn't have a reputation as high IQ. Sure there's more to it than vision/passing, but typically the association goes hand in hand.

They both have the same issue: The need to be ball dominant to be at their best, only they're not good enough at this level to justify it. Talk of packaging one for anything of significance is a pipe dream, as is utilizing Bertans as a full time small forward.

[SAGirl]

I never saw it and I don't get the Spurs' obsession with him. The high IQ talk is overstated because he's light skinned and lacks athleticism. I say this because I've seen nothing to suggest he's even a definitively better passer than Simmons, yet he doesn't have a reputation as high IQ. Sure there's more to it than vision/passing, but typically the association goes hand in hand.

They both have the same issue: The need to be ball dominant to be at their best, only they're not good enough at this level to justify it. Talk of packaging one for anything of significance is a pipe dream, as is utilizing Bertans as a full time small forward.
Will try to minimize my comments bc I have already posted a whole lot more than I intended to. It will be a recurring topic anyways.

These are the guys RC got in. KA was an available talent in the draft so it was a good gamble, but JSimms was scouted and brought in for a reason. The entire team cannot be shooters with no one else. They provided something different that was worth developing and Pop has hopes about them (he said anyways). The team doesn't have much depth and won't acquire it trading them, they are all very cheap and each new guy you add is another new person in a system that is complex. I doubt there are trades unless the team is doing really bad midseason.

The guys who should be doing the heavy lifting are well compensated save Mills, who will get paid this summer.

This is a development opportunity for the players and worth following for me just by itself personally... but to each his own (in this thread, not talking about you specifically TD, each one watches for their own reasons)

[TD 21]

Will try to minimize my comments bc I have already posted a whole lot more than I intended to. It will be a recurring topic anyways.

These are the guys RC got in. KA was an available talent in the draft so it was a good gamble, but JSimms was scouted and brought in for a reason. The entire team cannot be shooters with no one else. They provided something different that was worth developing and Pop has hopes about them (he said anyways). The team doesn't have much depth and won't acquire it trading them, they are all very cheap and each new guy you add is another new person in a system that is complex. I doubt there are trades unless the team is doing really bad midseason.

The guys who should be doing the heavy lifting are well compensated save Mills, who will get paid this summer.

This is a development opportunity for the players and worth following for me just by itself personally... but to each his own (in this thread, not talking about you specifically TD, each one watches for their own reasons)

The reality is, they're not good enough to play the role they need to at this level to be successful (at least on an elite team) and unless Murray makes an unexpected quantum leap in the next year, they're going to need to go out and find a second unit creator, if Ginobili does the expected and retires.

In the meantime, whether you and your buddy like it or not, the bench offensively still rightfully revolves around Ginobili and he needs more floor spacers surrounding him.

[MaNu4Tres]

The reality is, they're not good enough to play the role they need to at this level to be successful (at least on an elite team) and unless Murray makes an unexpected quantum leap in the next year, they're going to need to go out and find a second unit creator, if Ginobili does the expected and retires.

In the meantime, whether you and your buddy like it or not, the bench offensively still rightfully revolves around Ginobili and he needs more floor spacers surrounding him.

Thank you, TD.

[SAGirl]

The reality is, they're not good enough to play the role they need to at this level to be successful (at least on an elite team) and unless Murray makes an unexpected quantum leap in the next year, they're going to need to go out and find a second unit creator, if Ginobili does the expected and retires.

In the meantime, whether you and your buddy like it or not, the bench offensively still rightfully revolves around Ginobili and he needs more floor spacers surrounding him.
I think you derive satisfaction in being right, and I do just enjoy watching players play and young players develop TBH.

[TD 21]

Thank you, TD.

:toast



I think you derive satisfaction in being right, and I do just enjoy watching players play and young players develop TBH.

No, I "derive satisfaction" in winning championships and Anderson and Simmons doing third rate Ginobili impersonations isn't a means to that end.

[SAGirl]

:toast




No, I "derive satisfaction" in winning championships and Anderson and Simmons doing third rate Ginobili impersonations isn't a means to that end.
OK fine TD have it your way, since I don't like to argue just for the heck of it. The long season is a long road to get there and it won't be survived on Ginobili's back.

[BD24]

SAgirl just said she doesn't like to argue :lol

Jesus I've heard it all now. :lol

[apalisoc_9]

Comparing Kyle anderson growth to the needed developlemnt kawhi took is incredibly delusional. They were nowhere close in terms of potential as a rookie and Leonard significantly improved every year..Even Without the ball in his hands

The fact of the matter is that, San Antonio is still trying to compete for a championship and Ginobili is still the best guy of the bench. Taking responsibilities away from him, is silly when none of the potential guys who can replace him comes close to his level of production.

In addition, Suggesting that a team runs Isolations and Pop to run a system with the bench that maximises the 4th best bench guy is even more ridiculous...

Leonard won his Responsibilies by performing at an extrmely high level as an off the ball guy in hos rookie year. Kyle is at his third year and is still terrible at figuring out how to contribute without the ball.

[SAGirl]

SAgirl just said she doesn't like to argue :lol

Jesus I've heard it all now. :lol

Not for the sake of it. I like to exchange opinions and such, but I don't look to be right all the time and if at some point it deviates into I am right you are wrong I cut bait, bc there is no point from my perspective.

I can be faulted for being too wordy, too chatty, too essay-ing... etc but pointless discussions from my perspective, I am trying to stay away from. I value TD's opinion in fact. I don't consider him ignorant at all, but I have a different perspective from him and once we get to that, what's the point? I respect him.

[TheGreatYacht]

Not reading thru 6 pages of a thread any smart basketball fan agrees with...

...but I did just see SAGirl blame Pop for not giving Kyle a "green light"? At some point this scrub needs to stop getting passes. No way do I picture Pop telling Kyle to pass up open shots :lol

What SAGirl sees Pop doing when iceberg head doesn't shoot:
http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/5360ea086bb3f733490c4b3b/joey-crawford-messes-up-durant.gif

[GSH]

For example, they have serious spacing issues that is evident, playing the two bigs requires a craftiness lacking from Dedmon's game to begin with, but they are not going to bench Lee to play Kyle at the 4, when Lee is a big contributor to them in the paint and on the boards, plus is active as a garbage man, who gets some shots up that way.

Do you remember all the heads exploding last season, over the West/Diaw combo? Just wait until they see the Lee/Anderson combo this year. And we are going to see it. Because, like it or not (and I don't like it), Lee is probably the best candidate for backup C on the roster right now. And Kyle may be the best candidate for backup PF. I don't care how you try to chart out their skill sets, and how they mesh, that's what the Spurs have right now. Unless Dedmon starts playing a LOT better, he sure as hell isn't first big off the bench material. And LJC looks like a commercial for the dangers of anorexia.




They have depth at the 4 spot (seriously?), but almost nothing on the wing after Kiwi/Danny/Manu). Then it's more alarming when one realizes Manu can't play that many minutes and will be absent in games.


Yeah, when you start doing the math you begin to figure out why I was so I favor of tanking one year for a draft pick, and clearing some cap space for the next year. The Spurs managed to land Gasol, which makes their starting unit whole, but didn't leave much for fill-in. Even if Manu is Iron Man this season, this bench is still looking pretty damned suspect.

[benefactor]

I think you derive satisfaction in being right, and I do just enjoy watching players play and young players develop TBH.
It's been his shtick since the beginning. When he first started posting here he would melt down when people didn't respect his takes and say it was because his post count wasn't high enough.:lol He made it a point to repeatedly go after LJ in some sort of mission to get paid attention to. His takes have improved since then but he still acts like a faggot most of the time.

[ceperez]

Folks! Patience, the switch will turn on for Kyle.

True though, with West, Diaw and Boban all gone from the bench, a lot of offensive punch is now missing!

[TheDoctor]

...What SAGirl sees Pop doing when iceberg head doesn't shoot:
http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/5360ea086bb3f733490c4b3b/joey-crawford-messes-up-durant.gif

:lmao:rollin

[ernest787]

Kyle defenders blaming Pop is hilarious.

It's been said for 3 years now. Kyle is average in a lot of areas but doesn't have elite NBA talent in any single area. He is facing an upheld climb to be a difference making NBA player.

Kyle doesn't shoot the ball because he isn't confident in his shot. He is confident in his shot because he isn't a great shooter. Can he knock down some 3s? Sure. Is he a knock down shooter... No.

Does Kyle have some room for improvement? Of course he does. He's young, but he is not progressing fast enough and may (likely) will never get there. Anyone who wants Kyle to shoulder the load for the bench is asking for disaster. Hopefully he plays like a solid 8th to 9th man while Manu and Patty have great seasons.

[SAGirl]

Do you remember all the heads exploding last season, over the West/Diaw combo? Just wait until they see the Lee/Anderson combo this year. And we are going to see it. Because, like it or not (and I don't like it), Lee is probably the best candidate for backup C on the roster right now. And Kyle may be the best candidate for backup PF. I don't care how you try to chart out their skill sets, and how they mesh, that's what the Spurs have right now. Unless Dedmon starts playing a LOT better, he sure as hell isn't first big off the bench material. And LJC looks like a commercial for the dangers of anorexia.
am
Yeah, when you start doing the math you begin to figure out why I was so I favor of tanking one year for a draft pick, and clearing some cap space for the next year. The Spurs managed to land Gasol, which makes their starting unit whole, but didn't leave much for fill-in. Even if Manu is Iron Man this season, this bench is still looking pretty damned suspect.

It's very possible you are right quite frankly, but the "tank" is not in Pop's mind. Kawhi is looking tremendous, the team's starting lineup is very, very good. So long as Kawhi is healthy, the team will still win a lot of games. And really Kawhi has stepped up to the challenge, he's come in with a yet again expanded game, making plays for teammates, mastering the PnR, taking command of the situation, and leading by example. Him and LMA have acknowledged publicly that it's on the two of them right now and that the team goes as far as the two of them go. If I am Pop, no way I am going to let them down. The season is young still. Now if Kawhi was injured and out for any number of weeks, the team is in trouble and I guess all bets are off. That changes the outlook tremendously. But enough of that chat, I don't want to jinx him.

For the current real situation, the one combination we haven't seen is precisely Lee/Anderson. Pop is concerned with size at the C position for sure. He's played Lee with Pau and Deadman, so I don't think he wants Lee as a C. The suns game Pop played Dedmon/Anderson, the only time he played Anderson as the 4, and frankly he had a good solid game. The lineup he played in was terrible though. Both Dedmon and Simmons played sooooo bad that they lost possession after possession due to some O Foul or TO. It is possible that the fact that Simmons is not going to be reliable and solid is sinking in, which makes him not a rotation piece---my guess---so the concern for the SF minutes is real. Simmons may remain right now as a deep bench reserve, unless he can turn it around (which may require solid play for a string of games right now, not a single game.)

I have also noticed how many looks Forbes has gotten. My guess is that the concern for a SG who can shoot the 3 and spaces the floor is real. It also reflects to me their desire to stick with the non-shooting combo of Deadman/Lee. It's already cramped to play Anderson there (who I am guessing will get pushed and pressured to be aggressive with the 3 as well) but they cannot afford to play Simmons with those three when Manu is resting. Simmons reworked his shot with Chip and has since lost the touch from three (very off in SL, and so far this season). Again you might be right, but for right now, I think Pop is going to try to make it work with Deadman/Lee.

[YGWHI]

I found this on PTR and it was too funny

I was going to tell you that people on PtR are more optimistic about Kyle than people here, their expectations on him seem realistic, I liked what I read about him there.

Sure, you will hear, PtR is awful, but I guess that's about the articles. The comments of fans are fine/nice.

[TheGreatYacht]

Kyle with 6pts (2/8fg), 4reb, 2ast in 27 minutes

[SAGirl]

I was going to tell you that people on PtR are more optimistic about Kyle than people here, their expectations on him seem realistic, I liked what I read about him there.

Sure, you will hear, PtR is awful, but I guess that's about the articles. The comments of fans are fine/nice.

Thanks :tu

[Chinook]

It was too hard to see what kind of shots he got and how close he was to making them tonight. Some were blocked, and that's going to happen when he's under the rim. I wish he would've shot more, since he had a good test in Gordon going up against him. Dude needs to keep grinding; it wasn't there today.

[tonight...you]

It was too hard to see what kind of shots he got and how close he was to making them tonight. Some were blocked, and that's going to happen when he's under the rim. I wish he would've shot more, since he had a good test in Gordon going up against him. Dude needs to keep grinding; it wasn't there today.
The angles were awful. You could gather so little, but I saw Kyle do many more good things in this game than the last. Nowhere near really good, but at least okay.
He did some strong rebounding and positioning... Handled some intense ball pressure when Arci couldn't... Steadied the team at certain moments with his Zen-like movements...

I saw some positives... and you know I'm not a Kyle-guy at all.

[SAGirl]

I thought he was used as a playmaker. In the SL, neither Danny, nor Mills were going to make plays off the dribble, and he ran some PnR with the bigs making nice passes. Didn't have as many assists bc the bigs didn't have a good shooting night.

For himself he had a very tough matchup. Aaron Gordon is as tall and almost as long as he is and more athletic and strong. He's not Kawhi, but he's taller, and has every other physical tool he needs to make life difficult + he's dedicated on that end. The camera angles were indeed horrible, but from what I saw, at least he did not pass up open shots like the last game. He was blocked twice. One of the blocks was right in front of the camera and he was pushed and there was a lot of contact, with arms as long as he has if he's going for the reverse you really have to jump up on top of him to get to that, and Aaron did... there was a lot of contact in that play but they didn't call the foul, gave the benefit of the doubt to the shot blocker.

It was hard to tell otherwise, at least I didn't see him open and just passing to other ppl, that kind of passiveness wasn't there this time. I thought they were on him like glue (again from what I could see).

[Brazil]

So far Simmons sucks but sucks less than Anderson... We are far far far from not relying on Manu to lead the bench... so yeah you do whatever you can to give Manu the best conditios to succeed a big whith whom he can P&R and shooter to spread the floor for him.

Again if Anderson is not capable to produce without dominating the ball, good bye

[Brazil]

Plan should be for this year: pray for Manu to be healthy, pray for Anderson get his shit together and starts playing off the ball. next year, you insert Parker from the bench, him and Manu (if still there) will control ball and pace... Again the wet dream of KA leading the bench is well... a wet dream... won't happen

[dabom]

Plan should be for this year: pray for Manu to be healthy, pray for Anderson get his shit together and starts playing off the ball. next year, you insert Parker from the bench, him and Manu (if still there) will control ball and pace... Again the wet dream of KA leading the bench is well... a wet dream... won't happen

You saying he can't ISO vs the warriors in the playoffs?

[Brazil]

You saying he can't ISO vs the warriors in the playoffs?

:lmao

give him high usage for him to be successful :lmao

[spursistan]

Bump..

It is sad that this is going to boil down to the conventional wisdom about the limits of his ceiling from when we drafted him..the shocking part is that he looks to have regressed from last year..

[100%duncan]

PLEASE CUT THIS GUY. FUCK

[Nathan89]

KA is getting worse tbh

[tholdren]

because he has never had the capability of being a playmaker on a team that wasn't loaded. He can't run a unit. If spurs had 5 really good players he could be a 6th. But the spurs have 1-2 reliable game in and out players. package kyle and tony.

[TheDoctor]

Kyle's fathead so big that he's constantly pulling the other players heads into orbit.

[ElNono]

I started the season with an open mind and rooting for him, but I'm genuinely starting to hate him, tbh... Bonner-style hate...

[MaNu4Tres]

I still stand by my first post in this thread.

The guy simply isn't good enough.

Should have traded him for a 2nd this past summer.

[spursistan]

He is playing himself to the trading block..

[tonight...you]

He does a few things well and you want to go, "Yeah! He can do things!" and then he shits the bed the rest of the time with his passivity and overall uselessness.

Gosh darnit! I want the guy to do well so bad and he just refuses to! He refuses to succeed! He refuses to go out and grab that brass ring!

At least Simmons go's out and tries, for all his boneheaded mistakes. Anderson is getting tiresome for me to watch.
Almost Parker-level tired.

[100%duncan]

I started the season with an open mind and rooting for him, but I'm genuinely starting to hate him, tbh... Bonner-style hate...

Welcome to the club. Started it last season.

[100%duncan]

He is playing himself to the trading block..

But has no fucking value

[Austin_Toros]

Yet some people here still act like he's the second coming of Lamar Odom :lol

[tonight...you]

But has no fucking value

This is the time when I wish Isaiah Thomas, or Billy King was still a GM...

[apalisoc_9]

My god did he ruin the ball movement tonight playing with the bench. He's not selfish, but he's just an awful offball player..

Here's what happens all the time.

Manu or Patty breaks down the defense..Pass out to kyle with a little bit of an open space. Two things he should do, shoot or drive strong...what he actually does..Fakes, then dances around and pass it out..That resets the offense but with very little time on the shot clock.

I'm still rooting for Anderson, but he's been the worst player so far...Parker was at least passable and.played a decent role in the GSW game...Kyle has been invisible the whole 5 games.

[ElNono]

I still stand by my first post in this thread.

The guy simply isn't good enough.

Should have traded him for a 2nd this past summer.
SAGirl gonna hate me for saying this, but...

Even the alleged 'aggressive' Kyle is unadultered shit. He ran the point in one possession, and I puked a bit. Then when he tries to do the slomo shake and bake, I feel like I need to take a shower afterwards.

His defense on the perimeter is l-a-z-y. There's no other way to describe it: lazy.

I'm not putting this loss on him, lots of blame to go around. I'm just getting to that point where watching him check in feels like a let-down, tbh...

[tonight...you]

Yet some people here still act like he's the second coming of Lamar Odom :lol
He is... he's Lamar Odom, strung out on heroin shots.

[100%duncan]

My god did he ruin the ball movement tonight playing with the bench. He's not selfish, but he's just an awful offball player..

Here's what happens all the time.

Manu or Patty breaks down the defense..Pass out to kyle with a little bit of an open space. Two things he can't do, shoot or drive strong...what he actually does..Fakes, then dances around and pass it out..That resets the offense but with very little time on the shot clock.

I'm still rooting for Anderson, but he's been the worst player so far...Parker was at least passable and.played a decent role in the GSW series...Kyle has been invisible the whole 5 games.
FiFy

[apalisoc_9]

FiFy

That was a real typo..I was gonna type should..:lol

[100%duncan]

SAGirl gonna hate me for saying this, but...

Even the alleged 'aggressive' Kyle is unadultered shit. He ran the point in one possession, and I puked a bit. Then when he tries to do the slomo shake and bake, I feel like I need to take a shower afterwards.

His defense on the perimeter is l-a-z-y. There's no other way to describe it: lazy.

I'm not putting this loss on him, lots of blame to go around. I'm just getting to that point where watching him check in feels like a let-down, tbh...
And where did the notion that he was a good defender come from? Guy can't 1.) stay infront of ANYONE AND I MEAN ANYONE and 2.) HE DOESNT FUCKING TRY TO CLOSE OUT. So triggered. Fuck this guy

[siraulo23]

so after 5 games ^ this thread still holds

very underwhelming so far

[apalisoc_9]

He's got two decent qualities..passing and Rebounding. Hes not good enough to steal touches from the other guys so his passing would never be utulized..but it never should with the talent around.

His only asset that he showed last year was rebounding..and he's doing that but with4 bigs that can rebound plus Danny and Kawhi..its probably not needed.

[ElNono]

And where did the notion that he was a good defender come from? Guy can't 1.) stay infront of ANYONE AND I MEAN ANYONE and 2.) HE DOESNT FUCKING TRY TO CLOSE OUT. So triggered. Fuck this guy

He's actually not bad contesting in the post against smaller players, he has good length. I'll give him that. The perimeter though, it's like terrible.

[tonight...you]

My god did he ruin the ball movement tonight playing with the bench. He's not selfish, but he's just an awful offball player..

Here's what happens all the time.

Manu or Patty breaks down the defense..Pass out to kyle with a little bit of an open space. Two things he should do, shoot or drive strong...what he actually does..Fakes, then dances around and pass it out..That resets the offense but with very little time on the shot clock.

I'm still rooting for Anderson, but he's been the worst player so far...Parker was at least passable and.played a decent role in the GSW game...Kyle has been invisible the whole 5 games.
You called it exactly. And... you may be rooting for him still, I'm looking at him like the new RJ. This guy is a cul-de-sac of a player. No use in rooting any longer.

[MaNu4Tres]

SAGirl gonna hate me for saying this, but...

Even the alleged 'aggressive' Kyle is unadultered shit. He ran the point in one possession, and I puked a bit. Then when he tries to do the slomo shake and bake, I feel like I need to take a shower afterwards.

His defense on the perimeter is l-a-z-y. There's no other way to describe it: lazy.

I'm not putting this loss on him, lots of blame to go around. I'm just getting to that point where watching him check in feels like a let-down, tbh...

He turns down open 3 point shots, and chooses to do his slow ass herk and jerk, in and out hesitation dribble into two defenders and his teammate.. then panic passes out of the congested garbage that he created. He's terribly ineffective to the point where his presence just hurts everyone else around him offensively.

His defense is okay, but he made terrible rotations tonight and looked very bad.

Spurs need Bertans and Green back.

Bertans should steal his minutes at the back up SF.

Try to fleece a team and trade Kyle for a 2nd still. Then sign Archie Goodwin.

[100%duncan]

He's actually not bad contesting in the post against smaller players, he has good length. I'll give him that. The perimeter though, it's like terrible.

Yeah but how many times do small players post up and how many times do they see kyle and not just go for the easy blow by. FUCK. THIS. GUY.

[Kawhitstorm]

He's got two decent qualities..passing and Rebounding. Hes not good enough to steal touches from the other guys so his passing would never be utulized..but it never should with the talent around.

His only asset that he showed last year was rebounding..and he's doing that but with4 bigs that can rebound plus Danny and Kawhi..its probably not needed.

He has to create a niche for himself as a "stretch-4 stopper", most stretch-4s are slow footed guys like Ryan Anderson so his foot-speed won't be much of a problem & he can rebound very well so the team won't get killed on the boards playing him at the 4. He can most likely use his D-League isolation prowess against stretch-4s since they tend to be the worst defenders on the floor.

Tonight, he should have been matched up against Ingles/Lyles who killed Lee all game long but Pop's answer was Softrige.:lol

[Austin_Toros]

After a solid Summer League I thought Anderson might show some development, but he's been a huge disappointment. Bertans should get his minutes tbh.

[100%duncan]

He has to create a niche for himself as a "stretch-4 stopper", most stretch-4s are slow footed guys like Ryan Anderson so his foot-speed won't be much of a problem & he can rebound very well so the team won't get killed on the boards playing him at the 4. He can most likely use his D-League isolation prowess against stretch-4s since they tend to be the worst defenders on the floor.

Please. He cant play period

[SAGirl]

He hasn't been good. I'd send him down to the dleague with a strict instruction to shoot at least 5 3s per game and play off the ball. If he hasn't by half time, coach has to come in and call plays to get him off the ball and to the open 3. I thought that was the most important thing Pop had to do this season, figure out a spot he'd play and stick him in it and I thought him hitting the 3 was going to be huge. It hasn't happened, he hasn't been that aggressive with his 3, and Pop also has had him all over the place in spots and roles, etc. so the criticism is well deserved. Hopefully he turns things around, and coach too...

[Kawhitstorm]

After a solid Summer League I thought Anderson might show some development, but he's been a huge disappointment. Bertans should get his minutes tbh.

Thank god for Bertans, much better option than Daye/Bonner if Kyle is thrown in the doghouse.

[SAGirl]

He has to create a niche for himself as a "stretch-4 stopper", most stretch-4s are slow footed guys like Ryan Anderson so his foot-speed won't be much of a problem & he can rebound very well so the team won't get killed on the boards playing him at the 4. He can most likely use his D-League isolation prowess against stretch-4s since they tend to be the worst defenders on the floor.

Tonight, he should have been matched up against Ingles/Lyles who killed Lee all game long but Pop's answer was Softrige.:lolKyle killed Lyles in SL. It was SL but they were matched up against each other. Honestly I think he's played as a wing bc that is what the team needs, it might not be the best for him.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

because he has never had the capability of being a playmaker on a team that wasn't loaded. He can't run a unit. If spurs had 5 really good players he could be a 6th. But the spurs have 1-2 reliable game in and out players. package kyle and tony.

Bullshit. Kyle isn't effective on offense unless he has the ball in his hands all the time. And it ain't gonna happen with Manu, Patty, and Simmons on the second five.

Dude is a scrub that doesn't fit with the rest of the team.

[apalisoc_9]

Our resident Fangirl is still asking Pop to call plays to get kyle going...:lmao

[Kawhitstorm]

Kyle killed Lyles in SL. It was SL but they were matched up against each other. Honestly I think he's played as a wing bc that is what the team needs, it might not be the best for him.

The thing is that Pop isn't going to call plays for Kyle when Pau is the 3rd option on the team.:lol

He's going to have to defend & attack when the opportunity presents itself, if he didn't turn-down open shots that would also help.

[Kawhitstorm]

Our resident Fangirl is still asking Pop to call plays to get kyle going...:lmao

This was the Lyles/Kyle matchup:

H4duWRqdPks

[SAGirl]

Not asking for plays for him TBH. I've been saying he needs to shoot the 3, but they were not matched up bc Kyle was in the perimeter and Lyles is played as a 4... that's what I am saying. Lee didn't have a good game against Lyles...

[TimDunkem]

Kyle did get smoked several times on the perimeter though...Not that other guys didn't but ol' Fathead with his cement shoes could hardly contest any shots he had to defend. lol

[MaNu4Tres]

Chinook thinks Spurs should run the offense through Kyle, esp vs Warriors...tbh

[apalisoc_9]

Chinook thinks Spurs should run the offense through Kyle, esp vs Warriors...tbh

:lol

Probably one of the most subtle Anti-kawhi dude in Spurstalk...Used to somehow manage to complain about kawhi supposed "Extra" touches and the lack for others...

[dabom]

:lol

Probably one of the most subtle Anti-kawhi dude in Spurstalk...Used to somehow manage to complain about kawhi supposed "Extra" touches and the lack for others...

:lol


He turning it around though...

[gambit1990]

Chinook thinks Spurs should run the offense through Kyle, esp vs Warriors...tbh
:lol

wanted sully + boban over gasol too.

[DenialTwist]

He's too damn slow for the NBA. Why the Spurs picked up his option to begin with is unbelievable.

[Kawhitstorm]

Kyle did get smoked several times on the perimeter though.l

Actually, Ingles went off when Lee was guarding him at the start of the 4th quarter.

I don't remember Kyle being matched up against Lyles the entire game, he was feasting on Lee for the most part.

[SAGirl]

Actually, Ingles went off when Lee was guarding him at the start of the 4th quarter.

I don't remember Kyle being matched up against Lyles the entire game, he was feasting on Lee for the most part.
Agreed. Lee was terrible in this game... but heck losses like this are not just one guy.

[AaronY]

Chinook thinks Spurs should run the offense through Kyle, esp vs Warriors...tbh
Well that strategy would have the element of surprise going for it at least..

[Arcadian]

Even the alleged 'aggressive' Kyle is unadultered shit. He ran the point in one possession, and I puked a bit. Then when he tries to do the slomo shake and bake, I feel like I need to take a shower afterwards.

:lol

[timtonymanu]

He is trash. Can't keep making excuses for him. I mean even CoJo turned it around in his 3rd season. Kyle still looks like a deer in headlights player

[SAGirl]

SAGirl (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49524) gonna hate me for saying this, but...

Even the alleged 'aggressive' Kyle is unadultered shit. He ran the point in one possession, and I puked a bit. Then when he tries to do the slomo shake and bake, I feel like I need to take a shower afterwards.

His defense on the perimeter is l-a-z-y. There's no other way to describe it: lazy.

I'm not putting this loss on him, lots of blame to go around. I'm just getting to that point where watching him check in feels like a let-down, tbh...
Not really, but it's on Pop what he has Kyle doing out there and I though by now Pop would know better what he is than all the experimenting he's showing.

He's a forward, either a 3 or a 4. I thought the major update Kyle needed was letting the 3 fly when he is open and I have been on record as being majorly disappointed he's not doing that. Most of my excitement over the summer was him shooting so well so I can't deny the letdown. We shall see. He is on thin ice.

He may not fit with Lee and Dedmon and may be playing himself out of the rotation but in this game the Jazz camped the paint and it will happen with 2 non shooting bigs at times and guys reluctant to shoot. Simmons struggled with his shot too and was closed out and blocked on jumpshots. Credits to the Jazz they competed hard and were impressive. There was a time Tony played with the bench, Simmons and Kyle, the bigs camped the paint and got 3 sec violations called on them. Tony to the bench might not be a good idea.

It was a mess, that was mad scientist Pop mode.

[spurraider21]

stick his ass in a matrix simulator where he can eternally play in summer league while in a vegetated state

[Chinook]

Chinook thinks Spurs should run the offense through Kyle, esp vs Warriors...tbh

Nice to see you're being as petty as ever.

[MaNu4Tres]

Nice to see you're being as petty as ever.

Good morning. :wakeup

[MaNu4Tres]

Kyle Anderson and a 2nd for Hollis Thompson. Do it R.C!

[Chinook]

Good morning. :wakeup

:coffee Morning. I'm getting to that age where I need coffee every morning. It's depressing.

[Brazil]

:lol keeping on blaming pop for Anderson shortcomings. What is mind blowing is that dude regressed vs last year and I'm not even talking about second half of the year but even first part. After reading some arguments during off season I was open minded and thought well maybe I'm a bit harsh. I wish he can get his shit together but for now he sucks plain and simple and he is sucking since day one except for two months last year...

[sasaint]

He turns down open 3 point shots, and chooses to do his slow ass herk and jerk, in and out hesitation dribble into two defenders and his teammate.. then panic passes out of the congested garbage that he created. He's terribly ineffective to the point where his presence just hurts everyone else around him offensively.

His defense is okay, but he made terrible rotations tonight and looked very bad.

Spurs need Bertans and Green back.

Bertans should steal his minutes at the back up SF.

Try to fleece a team and trade Kyle for a 2nd still. Then sign Archie Goodwin.

Question: Why is Archie Goodwin still available?

Some poster in another thread suggested trading Anderson and a second to Philly for Hollis Thompson. I doubt that is doable, but I would be all over that. I think the Spurs might be able to get more than a second for Anderson, and I'd be pretty happy with any first rounder and just leaving the 15th spot open. No rush. Anderson is not a contributor, anyway.

[TD 21]

Bertans should steal his minutes at the back up SF. Try to fleece a team and trade Kyle for a 2nd still. Then sign Archie Goodwin.

Even if Bertans could defend small forwards (which is unlikely), he's said and it's been clear that they view him as strictly a stretch four.

Goodwin is similar to Simmons and the holdup on his signing is probably waiting for a situation where he has a potential near immediate path to a rotation spot.


Kyle Anderson and a 2nd for Hollis Thompson. Do it R.C!

Why would the 76ers trade one of their few shooters for a (supposed) play making/point forward type, who's a far inferior prospect to 2 players they already have who fit that mold?

[tonight...you]

:coffee Morning. I'm getting to that age where I need coffee every morning. It's depressing.

Aren't you in your 20's? I had to have whiskey in the mornings when I was in my 20's... as a matter of fact, I still do...
Huh... Never mind then.

[DenialTwist]

Trade Kyle and some picks for Rubio