Give me a good reason why MVPaddy shouldn't start

[FkLA]

You can't.

Trade Enrique before people realize how truly fat, worthless, and overpaid he is. Helps ensure that MVPaddy gets resigned tbh.

[Robz4000]

:pop: "It wouldn't be fair to the team."

[Clipper Nation]

The only reasons why anyone still thinks MVPatty shouldn't start at this point are either that they're French, hate Kawhi, or both.

[apalisoc_9]

I came up with most of the anti-Parker nicknames, but it's probably not a good idea to start Mills.

What matters most is that Mills plays more minutes and ends most games...

The starters already have kawhi and Aldridge. If we Force Patty with the starting lineup, the bench is going to suffer.

[Mikeanaro]

There is no good reason at all, but I fear Pop´s actions during the playoffs playing Enrique lots of minutes hurting our chances.

[100%duncan]

The most plausible reason is that the 2nd unit is just so good with him.

[gambit1990]

i'm hoping tp asks for a trade at some point.

how long will his shoe company keep him?

[GSH]

He was there to finish the game. More important, IMO.

[DAF86]

Only reason would be that Parker would suck even more with the bench.

If you start Patty you have to seriously consider not playing Tony at all.

[Raven]

because he is size deficient and needs to play at a high pace to be effective?

[TrainOfThought5]

The only reasons why anyone still thinks MVPatty shouldn't start at this point are either that they're French, hate Kawhi, or both.

:lol

[MaNu4Tres]

Pop sees what we are seeing. Theres a reason why Mills has been closing.

Hard to see Knicks committing to Rose long term. Hope they run out of PG options next summer and take on Parker for a year.

[FkLA]

I came up with most of the anti-Parker nicknames, but it's probably not a good idea to start Mills.

What matters most is that Mills plays more minutes and ends most games...

The starters already have kawhi and Aldridge. If we Force Patty with the starting lineup, the bench is going to suffer.

Surrounding Kawhi, LMA, and MVPau with two shooters like MVPaddy and Green seems like it would be a great fit though imo. But first and foremost it eliminates a ball dominant player which allows the first three guys, especially Kawhi, to eat tbh.



If you start Patty you have to seriously consider not playing Tony at all.

Very true. Manu is the PG of the bench and even Simmons looks like he can shoulder some of that load. Honestly, not even hating but Tony really doesn't have a place on the team anymore. He just doesn't fit anywhere.

[John B]

Dream on. Any other organizations TP is gone. Pops will use him sparingly transitioning to the new era, while letting the big 3 in grace. That's how you repay future HOF's sacrifices and contributions.

[HarlemHeat37]

Really hoping that TP is just taking it slow and/or playing his way into shape, tbh..

He is no longer aggressive with the ball, and he hasn't been showing any activity off the ball, either..overall, he's virtually useless on the floor, right now..it's one thing to fall back and defer, but you can't become a statue out there..

It's still October, though..he started off well last year and fell off a cliff during the 2nd half of the season, hopefully this season is the reverse..

[spursgu]

Looks more TOSB than 40 year old Timmy.

[-21-]

I came up with most of the anti-Parker nicknames, but it's probably not a good idea to start Mills.

What matters most is that Mills plays more minutes and ends most games...

The starters already have kawhi and Aldridge. If we Force Patty with the starting lineup, the bench is going to suffer.

I agree. Tony won't fit in the second unit anyway with Manu and Simmons.

[TimDunkem]

It's still October, though..he started off well last year and fell off a cliff during the 2nd half of the season, hopefully this season is the reverse..
That scares me too, honestly. He might have a spark to end the season, let it go to his head, then decide to go into hero mode when an important game is on the line. :lol

[FkLA]

If he ever worked on his shot he'd be useful. Unfortunately, his shot is just as broke as it's ever been. Even Kidd developed a three pointer yet this lazy bum just keeps coming back looking worse and worse each year.

[FkLA]

because he is size deficient and needs to play at a high pace to be effective?

Not sure what being an inch or so shorter than Enrique has to do with anything. He also isn't only effective at a high pace.

[100%duncan]

Surrounding Kawhi, LMA, and MVPau with two shooters like MVPaddy and Green seems like it would be a great fit though imo. But first and foremost it eliminates a ball dominant player which allows the first three guys, especially Kawhi, to eat tbh.




Very true. Manu is the PG of the bench and even Simmons looks like he can shoulder some of that load. Honestly, not even hating but Tony really doesn't have a place on the team anymore. He just doesn't fit anywhere.

Idk why you think that when Pau and LMA can already space the floor.

Like other have said. Minutes and finishing>starting

[timtonymanu]

Parker just needs to work on that corner 3. But we've been saying this a couple of years as well. :lol

That's probably the only way he can make himself useful.

[100%duncan]

Parker just needs to work on that corner 3. But we've been saying this a couple of years as well. :lol

That's probably the only way he can make himself useful.

He's never gonna have that consistently.

[xtremesteven33]

What has always pissed me off about Parker is he just doesnt seem to care for LONG stretches. Offensively, hes made his living getting to the paint with ease but now he cant. He doesnt play good defense. I cant even remember a time Parker has drew a charge tbh. His court vision has always been subpar and Ive never seen him at least look like hes been hitting the gym with some consistency.

I think its always been safe to assume he was always a good PG within a great system which makes him look better than what he actually is. Nothing new to see this year. Its always been this way, just now its more obvious due to better talent around him. Nash, Kidd, CP3 and Billups were all better than Parker. I dont think theres any denying that.

[Raven]

Not sure what being an inch or so shorter than Enrique has to do with anything. He also isn't only effective at a high pace.

i don't know, it was the best i could come up with

[Raven]

What has always pissed me off about Parker is he just doesnt seem to care for LONG stretches. Offensively, hes made his living getting to the paint with ease but now he cant. He doesnt play good defense. I cant even remember a time Parker has drew a charge tbh. His court vision has always been subpar and Ive never seen him at least look like hes been hitting the gym with some consistency.

I think its always been safe to assume he was always a good PG within a great system which makes him look better than what he actually is. Nothing new to see this year. Its always been this way, just now its more obvious due to better talent around him. Nash, Kidd, CP3 and Billups were all better than Parker. I dont think theres any denying that.

there sure is.

[urunobili]

Laying low on the standings? Playoff switch TBH

[FkLA]

Idk why you think that when Pau and LMA can already space the floor.

Like other have said. Minutes and finishing>starting

Sure they can, but their real strength is their post games. Surrounding them with shooters is pretty enticing. It also allows Kawhi to polish his point forward skills.

If I had to choose one, I'd choose closing. Why not both though?

[james evans]

Damn the Parker fans aren't even gonna come in here and try to defend their boy. That's when you know he's done

[Perry Mason]

This discussion is actually decent and not just hating. Nice for a change. TP is a HOF great. It's good to show respect. One reason Kawhi looks so amazing right now is he is doing what TP did back in 2012-2014; bailing out bad possessions and taken tons of players off the dribble.

But Harlem has it right. TP looks disinterested or lazy out there. One or two good plays a game, a little hustle, otherwise he is just trotting around.

I mean, the dude only has to play 20 minutes. He still has some jets. Run hard for 20 minutes FFS. It's frustrating. He's clearly having trouble not leading the offense. He needs to think how to play off-ball like Bellinelli.

Pop sees the games of course. If TP can't figure it out, Pop will use his steady hand for the first couple quarters, but otherwise Patty and even Lapro will pick up more minutes.

[Chinook]

"He sets terrible screens. " -- Boomersgold

[ElNono]

To his credit, he's been forcing things very little... I don't recall thinking "here goes the hero" more than 4-5 times in the first 4 games, tbh... And Pop has also been on his ass when he tries to go that way.

Also, peeps should give credit to Paddy for his improved defensive activity. He's never going to be a good defender, but he's been much more active in these first 4 games. Dunno if it's the contract year or what, but I thought he's been really good on that side of the ball too.

[beirmeistr]

parker was a great player when he wad fast. Now, I thinkmpop has a dilemma. He knows Patty should be starting, but he also knows thst parker's big ego 2ould grestly resist coming off the bench. I tuink that's one resson tp seems do depressed when he is on the bench and pstty is playing grest. I think his ego is telling him that he is still young enough to play like before even though that is not realistic. TP hss been behaving so far but he almost always has a depressed face on the bench, even whe the spurs are playing exciting ball and the other bench playersvare excited. who knows what the solution should be.
please excuse my typing. I have a small tablet.

[alpha_HaZE]

Tony was great against the warriors, I assume he is getting in ready for the playoffs not trying as hard during the reg season. He had a long summer, and he is up there both in age and mileage. Plus our youngsters could benefit from that extra playing time.

[Boomersgold]

"He sets terrible screens. " -- Boomersgold

"But Parker is clutch and gets paid more."--Chinook

[Spurtacular]

You can't.

Trade Enrique before people realize how truly fat, worthless, and overpaid he is. Helps ensure that MVPaddy gets resigned tbh.

The tears of ST player fans seems like a pretty damn good reason, tbh.

[K...]

I think pop could see it as....Why fuck with a SL that "works". You'd have to think, LMA and patty know eachother. If they wanted to dictate Mills as starter they probably could. I just think KAwhi and LMA like Parker. Make of that what you will. Benching Parker this early would be a huge red flag and team morale issue.

To me the bigger issue is not demoting PArker but figuring out gasol and deadmon. The slight benefit you get from giving patty an extra 7-10m in playing time isn't significant. Parker will always play with Kawhi or LMA who are each first option offense guys.


If i was going to start patty, i'd at least wait till midseason to work on gasol and see what the younger guys can do for the bench unit. There is really no urgency at all. Some of you are just insecure

[Chinook]

"But Parker is clutch and gets paid more."--Chinook

Two things I've yet to say about anybody. In fact I'm a Green homer, and last year will probably be the only year where Danny is paid more than Manu.

[pgardn]

Because he is not an F'N PG for the millionth time. If you start Patty, you MUST start Manu as well so we will have a point.

No way the Spurs go an entire season with Patty at the point. No F'N way. We already have big problems with Parker at point, you want to make it worse by forcing a natural 2 guard to play there? It just plain dumb.

[100%duncan]

Sure they can, but their real strength is their post games. Surrounding them with shooters is pretty enticing. It also allows Kawhi to polish his point forward skills.

If I had to choose one, I'd choose closing. Why not both though?

Maybe because like I said, the bench is so much better with Patty? And by the looks of it, they can murder any bench in the league. And Pop doesn't know where to place his child. :lol

[SAGirl]

Two things I've yet to say about anybody. In fact I'm a Green homer, and last year will probably be the only year where Danny is paid more than Manu.Yea I haven't seen you gripe about the contracts. I don't as much either, but it does peeve me that Tony's role can be performed by someone paid a lot less, who is younger, will be healthier, doesn't need to be rested, etc. It truly is a legacy contract, same as current Manu's contract....

-------------
Let's wait for the experiments, for Danny to get back to covering for Tony on defense, let's wait to see what else Pop has in the bench guys... etc.

--------------
I suppose my best "good reason" to answer OP, is asrcasm. Let's blame fathead. When Danny gets back everything will be peachy... (In reality it won't Tony will still be Tony but Danny will cover for him on defense, and provide more shooting for Kiwi hopefully. Tony himself? I am going to hold myself back. I don't think he fits in the bench, and he won't be rendered unplayable this season, so it is what it is, but Pop is willing to go with whomever is playing the best and whoever fits best.

[100%duncan]

Because he is not an F'N PG for the millionth time. If you start Patty, you MUST start Manu as well so we will have a point.

No way the Spurs go an entire season with Patty at the point. No F'N way. We already have big problems with Parker at point, you want to make it worse by forcing a natural 2 guard to play there? It just plain dumb.

Not really imho. Please let's stop talking about being a "pg" or being a "traditional pg" I think that's way past the current style of play now. Besides the starting lineup has Kawhi which is kind of point forwarding at the moment. Parker isn't really doing a lot that Patty can't do like (Pnr'ing), in fact one can argue that he has better court vision the Tony, almost equal passing skill, but way better shooting, defense, passing etc.

[gambit1990]

Because he is not an F'N PG for the millionth time. If you start Patty, you MUST start Manu as well so we will have a point.

No way the Spurs go an entire season with Patty at the point. No F'N way. We already have big problems with Parker at point, you want to make it worse by forcing a natural 2 guard to play there? It just plain dumb.
:lmao

let's just keep someone averaging 2.6 assists a game as our starting point guard. patty had 5 when he started. that's more than parker's had in all three games he's played in.

[pgardn]

Not really imho. Please let's stop talking about being a "pg" or being a "traditional pg" I think that's way past the current style of play now. Besides the starting lineup has Kawhi which is kind of point forwarding at the moment. Parker isn't really doing a lot that Patty can't do like (Pnr'ing), in fact one can argue that he has better court vision the Tony, almost equal passing skill, but way better shooting, defense, passing etc.


Patty has a very tough time controlling tempo because he dribbles in straight lines and he does not start, stop, change directions well at all. You want to tie up KL with the handling, then he gets fewer minutes overall. It is an absolutely absurd idea with Manu and Patty working well together. In fact, I can see those two even finishing games until Green gets back. And possibly even beyond Green getting back. It could be OK for a few games against the right teams, but not for a season. At some point in the game minutes must be taken up by a guy that sets up the offense and gets people in the right spots without necessarily having to score. Especially since we have guys who do best in a set offense. We are not the Warriors 1st team. Especially now that KL is feeling really comfortable in a set.

I have watched the the degradation of Parker. Until someone else can emerge who can read tempo for Pop it's a no go. Patty should not be required to play a role he is not good at. I firmly believe Patty is a better overall player than Parker but that's not germane to how our team appears to work.

[pgardn]

:lmao

let's just keep someone averaging 2.6 assists a game as our starting point guard. patty had 5 when he started. that's more than parker's had in all three games he's played in.

You don't get it.

We dont have a point who even gets close to the top third of the league in assists. There is NOT one on our current roster.

[gambit1990]

You don't get it.
says someone who still wants parker in the starting lineup :lol

[pgardn]

says someone who still wants parker in the starting lineup :lol

Who do you want taking the point dumbass?

[gambit1990]

Who do you want taking the point dumbass?
:lmao

from july:

So who does Gambit start in place of TP at point?

i hate having to reply to the retards of spurstalk.

first let me preface this by saying i wanted to trade parker when he had trade value (january). posters against the idea were: nathan89, thegreatcunt, brazil, steelpussythathangslikewizardsleeeve, that geisha bitch cry havoc.

who would i start over parker? in no order: mills, murray, simmons.

i wish there were better options. i wanted to trade him for some. unlike you useless posters.

[spurraider21]

The only reasons why anyone still thinks MVPatty shouldn't start at this point are either that they're French, hate Kawhi, or both.


I came up with most of the anti-Parker nicknames, but it's probably not a good idea to start Mills.

What matters most is that Mills plays more minutes and ends most games...

The starters already have kawhi and Aldridge. If we Force Patty with the starting lineup, the bench is going to suffer.are you french or do you hate kawhi?

[ElNono]

Patty has a very tough time controlling tempo because he dribbles in straight lines and he does not start, stop, change directions well at all. You want to tie up KL with the handling, then he gets fewer minutes overall. It is an absolutely absurd idea with Manu and Patty working well together. In fact, I can see those two even finishing games until Green gets back. And possibly even beyond Green getting back. It could be OK for a few games against the right teams, but not for a season. At some point in the game minutes must be taken up by a guy that sets up the offense and gets people in the right spots without necessarily having to score. Especially since we have guys who do best in a set offense. We are not the Warriors 1st team. Especially now that KL is feeling really comfortable in a set.

I have watched the the degradation of Parker. Until someone else can emerge who can read tempo for Pop it's a no go. Patty should not be required to play a role he is not good at. I firmly believe Patty is a better overall player than Parker but that's not germane to how our team appears to work.

To be fair, that's never really been TP either. Pop like scorers, and Tony has always been primarily that, a scorer playing the PG spot. That's actually why it's been so difficult for him to deal with his new physical realities (which is not entirely his fault, tbh, he was built to use his main advantage, speed, in order to score).

Since last season, this team, from gameplay, priorities, personnel, etc is very different from the many faces of the Duncan-era Spurs. Time will tell if it's for good or bad, but that's besides the point. Tony is just in a very difficult position because he needs the ball in his hands to be effective, and in that starting lineup it's just not really his role anymore. You saw today we finished the game with Manu and Patty, but the guy that was playing point to close the game was actually Kawhi. On a night where LMA is also on the floor, those are your go to options, the rest basically play off the ball spacing, cutting, etc.

[pgardn]

:lmao

from july:

You hate to say it?
Then you did not say it.

You have no F'N answer. "I said we should have, but... But....."

Who do you play at point?
Dumbass.

[gambit1990]

You hate to say it?
Then you did not say it.

You have no F'N answer. "I said we should have, but... But....."

Who do you play at point?
Dumbass.
wow. you just might be the stupidest person on spurstalk.

[pgardn]

To be fair, that's never really been TP either. Pop like scorers, and Tony has always been primarily that, a scorer playing the PG spot. That's actually why it's been so difficult for him to deal with his new physical realities (which is not entirely his fault, tbh, he was built to use his main advantage, speed, in order to score).

Since last season, this team, from gameplay, priorities, personnel, etc is very different from the many faces of the Duncan-era Spurs. Time will tell if it's for good or bad, but that's besides the point. Tony is just in a very difficult position because he needs the ball in his hands to be effective, and in that starting lineup it's just not really his role anymore. You saw today we finished the game with Manu and Patty, but the guy that was playing point to close the game was actually Kawhi. On a night where LMA is also on the floor, those are your go to options, the rest basically play off the ball spacing, cutting, etc.

Very True.

We don't need him to score. We really should not need him at all. But we don't have another player who can handle the ball well and space the floor without going completely into turnover mode if pressed. He takes pressure off getting set up. Ideally he should be able to more but he is not able to.

The point is that distribution keep the ball safe relive pressure guy does not exist. This is important with a 24 second/ 8 second half court rule. It's something we should NOT have to worry about as it is basic but we do have to worry about it for a 48 minute game.

[Darius Bieber]

The only reason I can think of is that the bench would lose their kick.

[ElNono]

Very True.

We don't need him to score. We really should not need him at all. But we don't have another player who can handle the ball well and space the floor without going completely into turnover mode if pressed. He takes pressure off getting set up. Ideally he should be able to more but he is not able to.

The point is that distribution keep the ball safe relive pressure guy does not exist. This is important with a 24 second/ 8 second half court rule. It's something we should NOT have to worry about as it is basic but we do have to worry about it for a 48 minute game.

Look, I don't think it's TP's fault that the team completely changed it's makeup. It's just that the way this team is built, there's really no clear cut role for him. The "floor general" role might work out when you're playing a faster-pace game, and you need somebody to dictate the tempo (the bench does this a lot), but our starting lineup is postup-ISO-postup-ISO and Tony has no role there. The few outlets are for shooters when a double comes in, and TP just doesn't have a reliable shot (and yes, I'm ecstatic whenever he does have a night when he shoots well, but that's far from his forte).

It's just a tough spot for him and the Spurs, and I'm sure Pop is going to continue to try to make it work, and Tony will keep saying the right things. But when you look at his face sitting in the bench, you can tell it's tough, tbh. I'm not saying that to bag on him, it has to be tough. I'm sure TD and MG went through some of the same stuff until they found their new niche.

[pgardn]

The only reason I can think of is that the bench would lose their kick.

Parker with Manu 2nd team is a waste. Parker is nowhere close to the shooter Patty is now. This then puts Manu in a need to score mode.

No work.

[gambit1990]

don't waste too much time on him elnono.

[ElNono]

don't waste too much time on him elnono.

I'm having a good convo here, tbh... being confrontational about this makes no sense, we all want the Spurs to do well...

[Sean Cagney]

The only reasons why anyone still thinks MVPatty shouldn't start at this point are either that they're French, hate Kawhi, or both.

If you are a true Spurs fan and hate Kawhi smack yourself..... Best player on the team and top 5 in the L.


That being said Tony is near done, he lost more than a few steps and his J is not good so he is a decoy.

[pgardn]

Look, I don't think it's TP's fault that the team completely changed it's makeup. It's just that the way this team is built, there's really no clear cut role for him. The "floor general" role might work out when you're playing a faster-pace game, and you need somebody to dictate the tempo (the bench does this a lot), but our starting lineup is postup-ISO-postup-ISO and Tony has no role there. The few outlets are for shooters when a double comes in, and TP just doesn't have a reliable shot (and yes, I'm ecstatic whenever he does have a night when he shoots well, but that's far from his forte).

It's just a tough spot for him and the Spurs, and I'm sure Pop is going to continue to try to make it work, and Tony will keep saying the right things. But when you look at his face sitting in the bench, you can tell it's tough, tbh. I'm not saying that to bag on him, it has to be tough. I'm sure TD and MG went through some of the same stuff until they found their new niche.

I understand completely what you are saying. I personally would bench Parker completely and have Patty 2nd or even 1st unit with the correct partner. But who is that guy? Because it's pretty clear what Patty is and is not.

[gambit1990]

I'm having a good convo here, tbh...
you're giving him too much credit.


But we don't have another player who can handle the ball well and space the floor without going completely into turnover mode if pressed.
tp sat out the end of the 4th quarter tonight. spurs won.

oh, and after 3 games tp has more turnovers than patty has in 4.

[ElNono]

I understand completely what you are saying. I personally would bench Parker completely and have Patty 2nd or even 1st unit with the correct partner. But who is that guy? Because it's pretty clear what Patty is and is not.

Starting Patty with Danny or Bertrans would be a good idea, IMO, you're talking relatively pure and confident shooters. But DAF put it succinctly in this thread earlier: if you move Patty to the SL, TP is probably going to wreck what the bench has going for them, so that's why I'm saying it's a tough situation all around.

But Tony isn't going anywhere unless he asks to be moved, tbh. That's another thing Spursfan need to get drilled in their heads. Tony is going to have to get that shot going, or he's gonna sulk on the bench at times. Again, not his fault this team went in a different direction. I suspect winning will make everything work for the better. A lot easier to have people buy into stuff when things are going your way and you're seeing results.

[gambit1990]

patty has more assists and less turnovers than parker so far this season.

[TimDunkem]

Kyle will probably wreck it once he goes back to it anyway. Might as well keep TP in the SL.

[pgardn]

Starting Patty with Danny or Bertrans would be a good idea, IMO, you're talking relatively pure and confident shooters. But DAF put it succinctly in this thread earlier: if you move Patty to the SL, TP is probably going to wreck what the bench has going for them, so that's why I'm saying it's a tough situation all around.

But Tony isn't going anywhere unless he asks to be moved, tbh. That's another thing Spursfan need to get drilled in their heads. Tony is going to have to get that shot going, or he's gonna sulk on the bench at times. Again, not his fault this team went in a different direction. I suspect winning will make everything work for the better. A lot easier to have people buy into stuff when things are going your way and you're seeing results.

If I was facing the Spurs with a Green-Mills backcourt I would press full court whoever was brining the ball up the entire time that lineup was in. Force KL to bring it up with pressure starting halfcourt. ESPECIALLY in the playoffs. Blood in the water. I would love that lineup as an opposing coach.

[Obstructed_View]

Because his backup sucks.

[ElNono]

If I was facing the Spurs with a Green-Mills backcourt I would press full court whoever was brining the ball up the entire time that lineup was in. Force KL to bring it up with pressure starting halfcourt. ESPECIALLY in the playoffs. Blood in the water. I would love that lineup as an opposing coach.

Not sure what you mean by that. Patty has brought the ball up plenty, even when Manu ends up running plays. He's done it in the playoffs, including the NBA Finals. He's actually a tough cover dribbling due to his speed and generally good handles. He's not a prolific passer, but protecting the ball certainly isn't one of his problems. A full-court press strategy is short lived too. It's only effective as a surprise mechanism, but pretty easy to foil once you know it's coming.

Now Simmons or Danny, yeah, definitely wouldn't want them bringing the ball up. So you don't do that. Kawhi is not bad either these days, especially now that he seems to be getting "star" calls.

[gambit1990]

not a kyle fan, but he would look better starting with patty.

i don't see any reason why someone would play better playing with parker.

parker doesn't make players better. you can say patty doesn't either... okay. but you know what? patty gets the ball up the court quick, is always hustling, never over dribbling, can shoot, probably the most encouraging teammate.

i wanted patty to start last year even when he couldn't shoot. i knew parker wouldn't have been a difference maker. with patty starting the ball is in kawhi's hands more by default. where it should be.

parker off the bench isn't a good fit if he still can't change his mentality, i already know that.

[gambit1990]

manu is the oldest spur but parker is the only relic of the past.

parker relied on his athleticism. manu's intangibles are still intact. he was on the floor to close the game out. it wasn't the first time parker had one of the best seats in the house.

[objective]

basketball reference has Parker's PER after the Miami game at 3.4.

That is shockingly terrible. Patty is at 25.7.

The departed West and Diaw duo of disappointment are at -1.2 and -8.3 respectively, pure negatives.

[100%duncan]

Because his backup sucks.

Basically this :lol

[BillMc]

The most plausible reason is that the 2nd unit is just so good with him.

This.

Also, as someone pointed out, moving Tony to the bench with Manu makes their skill set redundant. When Patty is paired with Manu, Mills is the shooting guard while Manu usually initiates the offense. Moving Tony to the bench doesn't really help anyone as Tony isn't a shooter like Patty. So the choice is keep him in the first team or drop him out of the rotation altogether. And Tony is still better than Forbes, Nic or Murray at this point. So he still should start. But Mills will, and should, and is, playing at crunch time.

[MaNu4Tres]

basketball reference has Parker's PER after the Miami game at 3.4.

That is shockingly terrible. Patty is at 25.7.

The departed West and Diaw duo of disappointment are at -1.2 and -8.3 respectively, pure negatives.

Just happy they were able to get rid of the trash in the front-court. So glad West left, and the writing was on the wall with Diaw last May. He looks like he's checked out with basketball tbh..

All the while, Dedmon and Lee are posting PERs of 25 and 27 respectively.

It's going to be interesting to see how Parkers next 2 years will play out. The guy is done as a NBA player.

Spurs can only be so loyal to a fault, right?

[SASdynasty!]

Because Patty averaged 4 points and 2 assists on 42% shooting in the Thunder series LAST YEAR. Once Parker has a series even close to that bad, maybe PATFO will consider it.

[NameLess Scrub]

1. TP will never be traded not matter how bad he gets
2. Patty is not a PG. It's ok to play him at the end of a game when Kawhi is running the offense, i.e. willing the team to a win.

Didn't even read.. sorry if I'm redundant.

Thanks.

[pgardn]

Not sure what you mean by that. Patty has brought the ball up plenty, even when Manu ends up running plays. He's done it in the playoffs, including the NBA Finals. He's actually a tough cover dribbling due to his speed and generally good handles. He's not a prolific passer, but protecting the ball certainly isn't one of his problems. A full-court press strategy is short lived too. It's only effective as a surprise mechanism, but pretty easy to foil once you know it's coming.

Now Simmons or Danny, yeah, definitely wouldn't want them bringing the ball up. So you don't do that. Kawhi is not bad either these days, especially now that he seems to be getting "star" calls.

Not with consistent pressure game after game. Players that dribble high and can't change directions easily and frequently are dead meat with consistent pressure IMO. This is a huge weak spot for Mills. He thrives in the open floor with room to run already with a full head of steam.This is exactly why he is paired with Manu. Manu can for short periods. And so can Patty in the regular season here and there with teams that don't care to exert the energy.

This is a horrible spot to put Patty in though. Tight spaces making him change directions often. It makes much more sense to let him thrive where his strengths lie. Let Parker handle this chore. It won't be much of a chore for him anyway, it's about the only part of his game that has not degraded to the point as to become a spot to take advantage of. Although Parker will not blow by anyone anymore and make them pay for pressure.

This is what I see. We need a point. Most teams have players that can do more for their offense than Parker and carry out this basic function. Especially to Pop's satisfaction. We apparently do not.At least I know it's not Mills for significant periods. And I know that if he is asked to do this he will not be nearly as effective at his best role which is at 2. IMO if you want Patty to start, start Tony or Manu opposite him. Preferably Manu. And I don't think we want Green and Parker with the 2nd unit.

The people on the board who just spew numbers don't even notice the situations those numbers are created in... I am tired of reading the other silliness.

[kaji157]

Right now, moving Tony to the second unit will disrupt everything. Thats the unit that is keeping the spurs afloat while the starters are figuring it out.

Plus, Tony seems unable adjust to anything of what is needed from him. He has not become defensive minded, has not become a better off the ball player, nor a floor general and distributor. It is really disappointing because both Tim and Manu adjusted so well to their own declines.

The better choice is to stand pat with Tony, and keep limiting his minutes until you have him about 15 minutes a game all in the first half, there you have 25 minutes for Patty and 13 minutes to develop either Murray or Laprovittola.

I agree with Nono, we have to face that Tony is not going to be traded unless he demands it, weather it helps the team or not.

Keeping Tony will be remember as the epitome of "being loyal to player", too bad it will cost the Spurs a total amount of 45 millions for a shitty production.

[Ice009]

1. TP will never be traded not matter how bad he gets
2. Patty is not a PG. It's ok to play him at the end of a game when Kawhi is running the offense, i.e. willing the team to a win.

Didn't even read.. sorry if I'm redundant.

Thanks.

I'm going to bring up a point here. If Parker isn't traded and he plays out his contract, what happens if the FO doesn't want to re-sign him and he decides he wants to play longer and joins another team? That would mean that the Spurs carried him for no reason at all. If the Spurs don't want him back and someone else offers him a contract, I'm sure he'll take it, as correct me if I am wrong, he said he wants to play until he's 40? The loyalty they showed him then becomes worthless, so I don't see the point in being loyal if the player is not cutting it. At 39, Manu overall looks better and more spry than TP at this point. I also don't think TP is on the same level as Duncan and Manu when it comes to team icons.

[kaji157]

I'm going to bring up a point here. If Parker isn't traded and he plays out his contract, what happens if the FO doesn't want to re-sign him and he decides he wants to play longer and joins another team? That would mean that the Spurs carried him for no reason at all. If the Spurs don't want him back and someone else offers him a contract, I'm sure he'll take it, as correct me if I am wrong, he said he wants to play until he's 40? The loyalty they showed him then becomes worthless, so I don't see the point in being loyal if the player is not cutting it. At 39, Manu overall looks better and more spry than TP at this point. I also don't think TP is on the same level as Duncan and Manu when it comes to team icons.

He might receive the Horry treatment. "We would love to have you, our roster is just so full."

[pgardn]

I'm going to bring up a point here. If Parker isn't traded and he plays out his contract, what happens if the FO doesn't want to re-sign him and he decides he wants to play longer and joins another team? That would mean that the Spurs carried him for no reason at all. If the Spurs don't want him back and someone else offers him a contract, I'm sure he'll take it, as correct me if I am wrong, he said he wants to play until he's 40? The loyalty they showed him then becomes worthless, so I don't see the point in being loyal if the player is not cutting it. At 39, Manu overall looks better and more spry than TP at this point. I also don't think TP is on the same level as Duncan and Manu when it comes to team icons.

Manu's total skill package is what has kept him in the league. Parker could never match this.

He is amazing.

[Ice009]

I just want a defensive PG that can distribute the ball.

[spursistan]

I'm going to bring up a point here. If Parker isn't traded and he plays out his contract, what happens if the FO doesn't want to re-sign him and he decides he wants to play longer and joins another team? That would mean that the Spurs carried him for no reason at all. If the Spurs don't want him back and someone else offers him a contract, I'm sure he'll take it, as correct me if I am wrong, he said he wants to play until he's 40? The loyalty they showed him then becomes worthless, so I don't see the point in being loyal if the player is not cutting it. At 39, Manu overall looks better and more spry than TP at this point. I also don't think TP is on the same level as Duncan and Manu when it comes to team icons.

IMO, if they could dump him next summer to the Knicks and Phil Jackson, they should bite the bullet and do it. NY isn’t going to pay Rose big money in FA. If they miss out on CP3, an expiring TP and maybe another cheap PG could be a sort of stopgap solution. I don’t think Tony will say no to life in NYC alongside another frenchie (Noah)..It is probably the last chance for potential Parker trade..

[Yuixafun]

Corporate knowledge and coasting Parker and slightly resentful. Once he embraces the moment he will still be our best starting pg. He didn't just forget how to play. Ideally, if everyone plays their role, we have 5 types of scoring in the starting unit. Parker needs to play like a hybrid of Manu and Mills, without trying to force his offense, but when he sees daylight he needs to take it too and be aggressive.... Parker has a tough dilemma and balancing act of ego and instinct and letting go. He has all the tools to be the perfect fit. But the old Parker needs to die, to be reborn. We should have some empathy. He's got his pride, but he needs to evolve it into dignity, which Timmy always had.

[BillMc]

I feel sorry for Tony as he was "the baby" of the big three. So, when he saw Tim and Manu effective in their late 30's he probably assumed he'd last that long. But now in his mid 30's, he may go out a season or two after Duncan/Manu.

Some of this statistical decline, though, is Tony is not being asked to do much to a) keep divas LaMarcus and Pau happy, b) allow Kawhi's leadership to grow, and c) preserve his body. As I said in an earlier post, I think Patty should stay with the second team. So, the question will become is our third string PG better than Tony? Is Nico, Forbes or Murray ready? I have to say no. So, for now, Tony should stay right where he is. Long term, who can say. I suspect Tony's role will continue to dwindle until he retires or asks for a trade or gets the Bonner/Horry/Bowen treatment. (Bowen as I recall his rights were traded at the end).

Anyone remember how Pop dealt with Elliott or Avery at the end? Were they forced into retirement? I can't recall.

Manu will be another interesting ending. We expect this to be his last year. But if he chooses to come back will he be worth 14 mil again? Eventually he'll only be worth a low salary. And, if so, will he take it, retire, or take the money from some other team for one final awful year in Philly or somewhere else?

My hope is both Tony and Manu retire as Spurs. I give it only a small chance that both do so.

[Fireball]

Some of this statistical decline, though, is Tony is not being asked to do much to a) keep divas LaMarcus and Pau happy, b) allow Kawhi's leadership to grow, and c) preserve his body. As I said in an earlier post, I think Patty should stay with the second team. So, the question will become is our third string PG better than Tony? Is Nico, Forbes or Murray ready? I have to say no. So, for now, Tony should stay right where he is.

I agree ... its more important who ends the game, so Patty should stay with the bench at least for now. Hopefully Pop realizes that Patty should be the PG in crunch time right now ...

[100%duncan]

I feel sorry for Tony as he was "the baby" of the big three. So, when he saw Tim and Manu effective in their late 30's he probably assumed he'd last that long. But now in his mid 30's, he may go out a season or two after Duncan/Manu.

Some of this statistical decline, though, is Tony is not being asked to do much to a) keep divas LaMarcus and Pau happy, b) allow Kawhi's leadership to grow, and c) preserve his body. As I said in an earlier post, I think Patty should stay with the second team. So, the question will become is our third string PG better than Tony? Is Nico, Forbes or Murray ready? I have to say no. So, for now, Tony should stay right where he is. Long term, who can say. I suspect Tony's role will continue to dwindle until he retires or asks for a trade or gets the Bonner/Horry/Bowen treatment. (Bowen as I recall his rights were traded at the end).

Anyone remember how Pop dealt with Elliott or Avery at the end? Were they forced into retirement? I can't recall.

Manu will be another interesting ending. We expect this to be his last year. But if he chooses to come back will he be worth 14 mil again? Eventually he'll only be worth a low salary. And, if so, will he take it, retire, or take the money from some other team for one final awful year in Philly or somewhere else?

My hope is both Tony and Manu retire as Spurs. I give it only a small chance that both do so.

Man, I can handle losing Tony as much as I idolized the guy. But Manu should be a Spur for life.

[ceds]

where is this coming from?

Parker has had 15 years to learn how to pass on the break or throw an alley......its just not in his DNA.....At least mills knows how to run a fast break.

TP was always a scoring guard...Mills knows the offense and has experience running the playbook effectively...Also Kawhi will have the ball to close out games this season.

His defensive toughness is underrated just like his speed used to be. So far this season he has been an asset on that side of the ball.

Its time...He's ready to start and be let loose. We need to see what he's capable of with 35 mins....Im hoping we have TP on the block

Ive always maintained 20+ and 5 with a couple of steals and hustle plays mixed in.

[Perry Mason]

Very True.

We don't need him to score. We really should not need him at all. But we don't have another player who can handle the ball well and space the floor without going completely into turnover mode if pressed. He takes pressure off getting set up. Ideally he should be able to more but he is not able to.

The point is that distribution keep the ball safe relive pressure guy does not exist. This is important with a 24 second/ 8 second half court rule. It's something we should NOT have to worry about as it is basic but we do have to worry about it for a 48 minute game.

This is a key point. Put aside regular season games. You need an outlet in the playoffs and after February when the double-team, traps and pressure come for ball-handlers. Kawhi is working his way to point-forward land. But for now TP is the best ball-handler among the point guards and has the most experience in splitting traps and finding big men.

[Perry Mason]

Not sure what you mean by that. Patty has brought the ball up plenty, even when Manu ends up running plays. He's done it in the playoffs, including the NBA Finals. He's actually a tough cover dribbling due to his speed and generally good handles. He's not a prolific passer, but protecting the ball certainly isn't one of his problems. A full-court press strategy is short lived too. It's only effective as a surprise mechanism, but pretty easy to foil once you know it's coming.

Now Simmons or Danny, yeah, definitely wouldn't want them bringing the ball up. So you don't do that. Kawhi is not bad either these days, especially now that he seems to be getting "star" calls.

I just don't agree. Patty doesn't handle the press as well. And Kawhi probably isn't there yet either (nor does he need to be). Maybe Patty can now (he as definitely improved), or maybe he can by the playoffs. But the press comes in all types, the full-court, and then the trapping and double-teaming, etc.

[MaNu4Tres]

I just don't agree. Patty doesn't handle the press as well. And Kawhi probably isn't there yet either (nor does he need to be). Maybe Patty can now (he as definitely improved), or maybe he can by the playoffs. But the press comes in all types, the full-court, and then the trapping and double-teaming, etc.

Lol the press. What's this college basketball?

Hardly any NBA teams utilize the press. Bringing up the ball is one of the most simplest tasks in the NBA. Patty, Kawhi, Manu are fine w/ doing it.

[Perry Mason]

Lol the press. What's this college basketball?

Hardly any NBA teams utilize the press. Bringing up the ball is one of the most simplest tasks in the NBA. Patty, Kawhi, Manu are fine w/ doing it.


Do you watch the NBA playoffs? The entire Miami Heat defense for 3 years was a pressing defense at crunch time. OKC under Scottie Brooks did the same. And I was quite clear it isn't just about bringing up the ball. Please read the actual posts in this thread ok? Otherwise you aren't adding anything.

[NameLess Scrub]

I'm going to bring up a point here. If Parker isn't traded and he plays out his contract, what happens if the FO doesn't want to re-sign him and he decides he wants to play longer and joins another team? That would mean that the Spurs carried him for no reason at all. If the Spurs don't want him back and someone else offers him a contract, I'm sure he'll take it, as correct me if I am wrong, he said he wants to play until he's 40? The loyalty they showed him then becomes worthless, so I don't see the point in being loyal if the player is not cutting it. At 39, Manu overall looks better and more spry than TP at this point. I also don't think TP is on the same level as Duncan and Manu when it comes to team icons.

What I think is going to happen is that a) Spurs will somehow find a replacement, or b) when Tony's contract expires, he'll either retire or resign for cheap. By then he'll definitely come from the bench and the Spurs will have some replacement lined up.

I do think Tony will get treated as an icon. Good enough for the team even if not by Timmy/Manu/DRob standards.

[NameLess Scrub]

Corporate knowledge and coasting Parker and slightly resentful. Once he embraces the moment he will still be our best starting pg. He didn't just forget how to play. Ideally, if everyone plays their role, we have 5 types of scoring in the starting unit. Parker needs to play like a hybrid of Manu and Mills, without trying to force his offense, but when he sees daylight he needs to take it too and be aggressive.... Parker has a tough dilemma and balancing act of ego and instinct and letting go. He has all the tools to be the perfect fit. But the old Parker needs to die, to be reborn. We should have some empathy. He's got his pride, but he needs to evolve it into dignity, which Timmy always had.

I agree. Tough time for him.

The big question is whether he'll be successful adjusting, as hard as he could try.

[NameLess Scrub]

Do you watch the NBA playoffs? The entire Miami Heat defense for 3 years was a pressing defense at crunch time. OKC under Scottie Brooks did the same. And I was quite clear it isn't just about bringing up the ball. Please read the actual posts in this thread ok? Otherwise you aren't adding anything.

I think for now, as long as Kawhi can successfully play point forward / Kobe mode in the final minutes of close games, Patty will do. But if a better ball handler is needed at PG, Tony is probably still the man to protect the ball and keep some control.

[MaNu4Tres]

Do you watch the NBA playoffs? The entire Miami Heat defense for 3 years was a pressing defense at crunch time. OKC under Scottie Brooks did the same. And I was quite clear it isn't just about bringing up the ball. Please read the actual posts in this thread ok? Otherwise you aren't adding anything.

No I don't watch the playoffs. I only watch preseason. :lol

You're clueless if your biggests worry to Parker starting or not, is how the Spurs would bring the ball up. First of all, its' not a full court press, usually in the NBA its just picking up full court and in the NBA its not effective if the objective is to cause turnovers or steals. Usually whenever a teams elect to pick up full-court its to disruspt the offense by getting the ball out of the players' hands or to take as much time off the clock. However, Ball-handlers and most wings are too good with the ball in the NBA. Most of the time, teams pick up at half court. Sure there are instances where teams like to pick up full court and apply pressure on the ball handler, but that subtle wrinkle in a defense isn't sustainable for majority of the 48 minutes.

But yes, lets be worried about the vaulted press defense that teams utilize all the time. :lol

[spursistan]

IMO, if they could dump him next summer to the Knicks and Phil Jackson, they should bite the bullet and do it. NY isn’t going to pay Rose big money in FA. If they miss out on CP3, an expiring TP and maybe another cheap PG could be a sort of stopgap solution. I don’t think Tony will say no to life in NYC alongside another frenchie (Noah)..It is probably the last chance for potential Parker trade..

On topic: Parker won't be significantly worse for them than this cancer..:lol

793096527388434432

[beirmeistr]

Parker would never get traded, unless he asks for a trade to reclaim his glory somewhere else.

[MultiTroll]

What has always pissed me off about Parker is he just doesnt seem to care for LONG stretches. Offensively, hes made his living getting to the paint with ease but now he cant. He doesnt play good defense. I cant even remember a time Parker has drew a charge tbh. His court vision has always been subpar and Ive never seen him at least look like hes been hitting the gym with some consistency.

I think its always been safe to assume he was always a good PG within a great system which makes him look better than what he actually is. Nothing new to see this year. Its always been this way, just now its more obvious due to better talent around him. Nash, Kidd, CP3 and Billups were all better than Parker. I dont think theres any denying that.

[philldafunk]

I haven't had a chance to really catch any games yet this season, is it really that bad?

[MultiTroll]

OP, only good reason is as has been said, Patty seems to work better with most of the 2nd unit.
As to having a better starting point guard, a trade or acquisition will not happen. Parker is the new Bonner.
Pop has already shown he will value player over team in the playoffs, even at the cost of a 'Chip.
No reason to think that is gonna change. We can still hope.

[ElNono]

Not with consistent pressure game after game. Players that dribble high and can't change directions easily and frequently are dead meat with consistent pressure IMO. This is a huge weak spot for Mills. He thrives in the open floor with room to run already with a full head of steam.This is exactly why he is paired with Manu. Manu can for short periods. And so can Patty in the regular season here and there with teams that don't care to exert the energy.

This is a horrible spot to put Patty in though. Tight spaces making him change directions often. It makes much more sense to let him thrive where his strengths lie. Let Parker handle this chore. It won't be much of a chore for him anyway, it's about the only part of his game that has not degraded to the point as to become a spot to take advantage of. Although Parker will not blow by anyone anymore and make them pay for pressure.

This is what I see. We need a point. Most teams have players that can do more for their offense than Parker and carry out this basic function. Especially to Pop's satisfaction. We apparently do not.At least I know it's not Mills for significant periods. And I know that if he is asked to do this he will not be nearly as effective at his best role which is at 2. IMO if you want Patty to start, start Tony or Manu opposite him. Preferably Manu. And I don't think we want Green and Parker with the 2nd unit.

The people on the board who just spew numbers don't even notice the situations those numbers are created in... I am tired of reading the other silliness.


I just don't agree. Patty doesn't handle the press as well. And Kawhi probably isn't there yet either (nor does he need to be). Maybe Patty can now (he as definitely improved), or maybe he can by the playoffs. But the press comes in all types, the full-court, and then the trapping and double-teaming, etc.

There's simply no evidence of any of this. There's actually the contrary: Patty closing out Portland in the playoffs, doing a fine job against OKC the same season, breaking down high-hedge teams like the Heat in 2014 off the dribble. Even against the Clippers a season later. If you want to knock on Patty's PG skills is that he's more of a shooter than a penetrator. He's not a rim finisher, he's a shooting specialist.

The whole pressure thing is a cool narrative, but it's not really grounded in reality. The worst case pressure situations are either inbounds with very little time left or a "surprise" full court pressure for a couple of possessions (and the element of surprise is the only thing here, because once teams know it's coming, it's incredibly easy to defeat it, since it relies on gambling on an early double-team).

When Tony had the jets going, it made complete sense to go for the higher percentage shot under the rim. Also, when we were a very heavy P&R team, especially the 1-2 with Tim, there was also big value there.
But with the new team makeup, which is heavy iso-postup, that stuff is not there. Let me say one more time this is not Tony's fault either. It's just difficult to envision what his use would be in such a lineup considering his remaining skillset.

[dabom]

ElNono going deep. :lmao

[Seventyniner]

If anything, this discussion proves that the "Tony plays heroball too much" narrative was always false. He has taken the proverbial step back and is playing even worse.

At this point it seems like choosing between Tony and Patty to start is like having to choose between Hillary and Trump for president. Pop is just going to hold his nose and pick one like the rest of us.

[illusioNtEk]

I think we should not give up on Tony just yet.... it's not like he will need a wheel chair anytime soon.....

With Patty emerging could be the fuel Tony needs to better himself..... let's wait at least another month or 2 before we start talking about trades.

[SAGirl]

I haven't had a chance to really catch any games yet this season, is it really that bad?

To be fair to Tony, his role has changed and it's very small at this point and he has to be evaluated within a role. He's not heroballing, which was a needed adjustment and he has reduced at least the dribble, dribble with no point, a frustrating aspect in the past. He is adjusting.

The problem is that taking away what he used to be good at, leaves almost nothing behind. He's not going to be impactful on defense, he's not going to be a great threat from 3 as he doesn't take nearly enough shots from 3, or from a variety of spots, and he doesn't have the great court vision either. So his role and impact is very marginal and can be performed by someone who may give something more, like better passing, or better shooting, or better defense. Not saying Nico is there right now, bc he's a rook who needs a period of adjustment to compete at this level, but a player like him has the potential to surpass Tony eventually in this role (not even talking about Mills here, who is obviously producing more) bc he's a better passer and might be a better volume 3 pt shooter, as we saw him in preseason get hot from 3, from the wings and the top, spots Tony doesn't even like to spot or shoot from. When that becomes a possibility, that younger players at the end of benches have skillsets that fit better with what Kawhi and Pop are doing in the SL, then one wonders about Tony. He's not adding much at this point bc the SL has changed around him. ElNono did a good job of summarizing the problem, the makeup of the team has changed, the offense in the SL has changed, and shooters, defenders, passers, cutters are all a better fit with Kawhi and LMA, and Tony is none of those. Patty is at least a much better shooter and off the ball player and has improved his defense to a scrappy level that one thiks should be possible for Tony too, as he's small but still quick enough, but he's not there with his activity on defense.

I think Pop will work things out with just playing Patty more minutes and closing out games with more regularity. Nico will start to get chances to play as well. Pop will want to work him in.

[SASdynasty!]

If anything, this discussion proves that the "Tony plays heroball too much" narrative was always false. He has taken the proverbial step back and is playing even worse.

At this point it seems like choosing between Tony and Patty to start is like having to choose between Hillary and Trump for president. Pop is just going to hold his nose and pick one like the rest of us.
Yah for some reason PATFO doesn't go along with the ST narrative (and neither does the national media for the most part). They don't talk all day about OKC G6 in 2014 and conveniently forget about Dallas G7. They don't watch 2 gifs of Pop telling Parker to give the ball to Kawhi and act like it's the only time Pop has ever yelled at one of his players. They don't compare plus/minus stats of starters against bench players without adjusting. They don't ignore he fact that Parker has shot better from 3 than Patty the last few seasons. And they don't act like Parker had some bad season in 2014 when he was the only All-Star and All-NBA player on the team and led them in scoring and assists throughout the regular season and playoffs.

Parker started last year and the Spurs won the most games in the history of the franchise. This year they're undefeated. ST called for Parker to take a back seat and he did. Granted, we haven't made a deep playoff run since he took a back seat, but it's not like we can't. Once Patty has a season where he shows he can distribute like Parker or even penetrate anywhere close to as good, he might start. But in reality it's all kind of a long shot considering he's not a great point guard. He is a good SG though.

[ElNono]

Patty will likely go through a cold spell eventually, tbh, that's almost a given with any shooter, and I expect people pumping fists about it and revisit this thread.

I would frankly love to revisit this later down the season not because of that, but because Tony found his niche with the current team's makeup. And by that, I don't mean a hot spell of 3-5 games where his jumper is going, but really understanding where our bread is buttered, how we want to move the ball depending on who's out there, etc. I want him to do well, tbh, because he ain't going anywhere, and so the Spurs need him to do well.

Even with the second unit, in nights where Manu might not play, he can give you solid contributions, and people shouldn't wave that off either. It's not beneath him and I think he would be a better fit with the ball movement there.

[pgardn]

There's simply no evidence of any of this. There's actually the contrary: Patty closing out Portland in the playoffs, doing a fine job against OKC the same season, breaking down high-hedge teams like the Heat in 2014 off the dribble. Even against the Clippers a season later. If you want to knock on Patty's PG skills is that he's more of a shooter than a penetrator. He's not a rim finisher, he's a shooting specialist.

The whole pressure thing is a cool narrative, but it's not really grounded in reality. The worst case pressure situations are either inbounds with very little time left or a "surprise" full court pressure for a couple of possessions (and the element of surprise is the only thing here, because once teams know it's coming, it's incredibly easy to defeat it, since it relies on gambling on an early double-team).

When Tony had the jets going, it made complete sense to go for the higher percentage shot under the rim. Also, when we were a very heavy P&R team, especially the 1-2 with Tim, there was also big value there.
But with the new team makeup, which is heavy iso-postup, that stuff is not there. Let me say one more time this is not Tony's fault either. It's just difficult to envision what his use would be in such a lineup considering his remaining skillset.

You will see it grounded in reality if you start Patty at point with Green for a season. I guarantee that. Again, it's not about doing it for short stretches. It's about doing it game after game through a long season and into the playoffs. Honestly I hate to fall back on this but I have experience it. It is extraordinarily tiring physically and mentally. It's a draining position. ( And fn pop would have to lay off Patty if he throws him in game after game)Having to over the quickest guy on the other team and get things set up or even see ahead when traps are coming etc... its debilitating. Tony can't handle most of it now. I would say I feel more like we must sacrifice Tony because we don't need to kill Patty.

And there is no evidence that I have seen that he can handle this job for the long haul. Pop clearly does not see it.And then once again, you don't do this with a player that thrives at the 2. It's just not smart. If Patty does start he better have a guy like Manu next to him. I wish Kyle could work it with Patty. He has the PG attributes but he is so horribly slow.

But We knew all this before the season started. I think it's going to be a tough playoff season. Hope for the correct match up.

[pgardn]

Patty will likely go through a cold spell eventually, tbh, that's almost a given with any shooter, and I expect people pumping fists about it and revisit this thread.

I would frankly love to revisit this later down the season not because of that, but because Tony found his niche with the current team's makeup. And by that, I don't mean a hot spell of 3-5 games where his jumper is going, but really understanding where our bread is buttered, how we want to move the ball depending on who's out there, etc. I want him to do well, tbh, because he ain't going anywhere, and so the Spurs need him to do well.

Even with the second unit, in nights where Manu might not play, he can give you solid contributions, and people shouldn't wave that off either. It's not beneath him and I think he would be a better fit with the ball movement there.

The bolded might work but better have a shooter with Tony. Manu and Patty both being 3 point threats is huge for opening the floor. Tony has never developed a 3 that is a real threat. If KL gets injured then you might see more experimentation with Tony.

[ElNono]

You will see it grounded in reality if you start Patty at point with Green for a season. I guarantee that. Again, it's not about doing it for short stretches. It's about doing it game after game through a long season and into the playoffs. Honestly I hate to fall back on this but I have experience it. It is extraordinarily tiring physically and mentally. It's a draining position. ( And fn pop would have to lay off Patty if he throws him in game after game)Having to over the quickest guy on the other team and get things set up or even see ahead when traps are coming etc... its debilitating. Tony can't handle most of it now. I would say I feel more like we must sacrifice Tony because we don't need to kill Patty.

And there is no evidence that I have seen that he can handle this job for the long haul. Pop clearly does not see it.And then once again, you don't do this with a player that thrives at the 2. It's just not smart. If Patty does start he better have a guy like Manu next to him. I wish Kyle could work it with Patty. He has the PG attributes but he is so horribly slow.

But We knew all this before the season started. I think it's going to be a tough playoff season. Hope for the correct match up.

Sorry, but lack of evidence isn't an argument in itself. ie: Kawhi never started for an NBA team until, well, he did. These experiments happen all the time, and not always work out, but that it hasn't been tried doesn't mean it wouldn't work. Also, let me be the first in line to say Patty has his own drawbacks, especially defensively, but compared vis-a-vis with current Parker, and taking into consideration the makeup of the SL, I don't think such an experiment would be out of the question. Frankly, if it wouldn't be the Spurs, and the loyalty factor wouldn't be there, probably neither Tony or Manu would still be playing with the team.


The bolded might work but better have a shooter with Tony. Manu and Patty both being 3 point threats is huge for opening the floor. Tony has never developed a 3 that is a real threat. If KL gets injured then you might see more experimentation with Tony.

Well, you have Bertrans, Forbes... The point is that the bench is much more of a fast pace, pick & roll unit. That's closer to the mold that suits Tony better. Even Manu manages to penetrate and score here or there, I'm sure Tony could take advantage too.

[freemeat]

The Spurs are gonna absolutely pay Patty Mills. Finding a serviceable PG in this league isn't that difficult, but Patty puts the Spurs in contention. Don't get me wrong; Patty doesn't put any team in contention, but he gets the Spurs there. He's quick, heady, can find shooters, and can find his own shot. There are a bunch of PGs in the league who can do that, but none can do it at the pay rate the Spurs could get for Patty and none of them have the experience with Pop and the Spurs' system that he does. He's clearly learned the nuanced ways in which Tony has found points in this offense and understands how to use them along with his own. Re-signing Patty and maintaining cap room for another high-quality free agent would be amazing, so don't think the FO hasn't thought of it. Patty will resign because he's dedicated to Pop and his system; because of his production and value at price, the FO will resign him.

LOCK IT IN: Patty Mills signs a 4-year w/ SA.

[ElNono]

The Spurs are gonna absolutely pay Patty Mills. Finding a serviceable PG in this league isn't that difficult, but Patty puts the Spurs in contention. Don't get me wrong; Patty doesn't put any team in contention, but he gets the Spurs there. He's quick, heady, can find shooters, and can find his own shot. There are a bunch of PGs in the league who can do that, but none can do it at the pay rate the Spurs could get for Patty and none of them have the experience with Pop and the Spurs' system that he does. He's clearly learned the nuanced ways in which Tony has found points in this offense and understands how to use them along with his own. Re-signing Patty and maintaining cap room for another high-quality free agent would be amazing, so don't think the FO hasn't thought of it. Patty will resign because he's dedicated to Pop and his system; because of his production and value at price, the FO will resign him.

LOCK IT IN: Patty Mills signs a 4-year w/ SA.

It's early, but if he puts together a complete season playing at the level he's played in the first 4 games, the Spurs might end up getting priced out.

[FkLA]

This nigga pgardn still thinks that bringing the ball up the court is some super complex skillset that MVPaddy doesn't have. :lol

:cry he only has 8 secs to get past halfcourt, idk if Patty can do it :cry

[timtonymanu]

This nigga pgardn still thinks that bringing the ball up the court is some super complex skillset that MVPaddy doesn't have. :lol

:cry he only has 8 secs to get past halfcourt, idk if Patty can do it :cry

Perry Mason's dumb ass too :lol

[apalisoc_9]

Why are people so stuck with shitty labels? :lol

What a poor understanding of the game of basketball...

Kawhi-Manu-Patty-Parker all share the responsibility of bringing the ball up. In the last 4 games, Kawhi has played the PG Position in the last 5 minutes..making Patty a perfect compliment because he can shoot.

Heck the spurs can use a Ginobili-Kawhi-Green lineup...

I'm not sold on patty starting because hes such a deadly weapon with the bench but he deserves minutes priority over parker at this point.

[GSH]

Some damn good analysis in this thread (for a change). Tony is obviously struggling to do what he's always done against the first-team defensive units in the league. Logically, it seems like his experience and talent would still make him dangerous against any second unit defense. But...

Suppose Pop moves Patty to the starting lineup. Now you've got three guys who love to stand out on the perimeter and swoop into the paint (Tony, Many, and Simmons). And all three of them are coming off the bench.

Ah, hell. Most of you can see this coming. How do you fit all three of those guys onto a bench? I don't see how there's room for three guys who have that particular skill set, and personality. To me, it looks like if you put Patty in the SL, you really limit the minutes for one of those three guys - probably Manu or Simmons. So the question I have is whether moving Tony to the bench would create so much overlap on the bench that you would be wasting somebody's talents? Seems to me that making that move would basically call for a roster move of some kind.

[dabom]

You play your best players. Pop has always been a bitch about moves that he could have done years earlier. Patty has been with the Spurs for quite some time now.
It's his time now. Worry about the bench later cause all those guys ain't gonna all play in the Playoffs. I don't want the first unit getting destroyed and we have to play from behind every single fucking game. How about we blow them up with our best unit for a change. I can already see this shit playing out in the Playoffs. :lmao

[pgardn]

Sorry, but lack of evidence isn't an argument in itself. ie: Kawhi never started for an NBA team until, well, he did. These experiments happen all the time, and not always work out, but that it hasn't been tried doesn't mean it wouldn't work. Also, let me be the first in line to say Patty has his own drawbacks, especially defensively, but compared vis-a-vis with current Parker, and taking into consideration the makeup of the SL, I don't think such an experiment would be out of the question. Frankly, if it wouldn't be the Spurs, and the loyalty factor wouldn't be there, probably neither Tony or Manu would still be playing with the team.



Well, you have Bertrans, Forbes... The point is that the bench is much more of a fast pace, pick & roll unit. That's closer to the mold that suits Tony better. Even Manu manages to penetrate and score here or there, I'm sure Tony could take advantage too.

Yep but functional observation is.
The observations take place in the film room, preseason and practice with all coaches present and discussing. They are not always correct but I trust coaches over board QBs like we are.
In a weird way I have less confidence in Parker than you do. I think Manu is better at penetrating just because he is physically stronger. But both tire quickly. Patty will have some bad games as his hyper footwork overplay defensive feet get him off balance and will fail him when people body him. It's happened too many times in the past. He gets up on his toes and is easy to move.

Unlike others here I would love to see Patty do well as he seems to be the most team oriented player we have as far as rooting for everyone. I just don't want the guy ruined in the wrong spot. I feel he might also have confidence issues. He can go very bad quickly.

I look at Manu as a player/coach/heart. They guy is still the most competitive person on our team. He was down on the ground grabbing, kicking, flailing after a lose ball just last night.... we got young guys who need to see that. He has not had a fantastic start, but with roster spots open and corporate knowlege we need him. Do you know if he has any designs on coaching later?

[ElNono]

Some damn good analysis in this thread (for a change). Tony is obviously struggling to do what he's always done against the first-team defensive units in the league. Logically, it seems like his experience and talent would still make him dangerous against any second unit defense. But...

Suppose Pop moves Patty to the starting lineup. Now you've got three guys who love to stand out on the perimeter and swoop into the paint (Tony, Many, and Simmons). And all three of them are coming off the bench.

Ah, hell. Most of you can see this coming. How do you fit all three of those guys onto a bench? I don't see how there's room for three guys who have that particular skill set, and personality. To me, it looks like if you put Patty in the SL, you really limit the minutes for one of those three guys - probably Manu or Simmons. So the question I have is whether moving Tony to the bench would create so much overlap on the bench that you would be wasting somebody's talents? Seems to me that making that move would basically call for a roster move of some kind.

There's no easy solution, IMO... it's not as simple as swap guy A with guy B, tbh... but one thing I thought was interesting is that I think Pop isn't sold on either unit completely yet. He's a guy that would normally start Lapro if Tony is resting, just to keep the 2nd unit intact, but he didn't this time around. Might be nothing, but I think he's more willing to experiment, especially early in the season, and there's less "continuity" here and more "experimenting". Might be something to keep an eye on.

[dabom]

Yep but functional observation is.
The observations take place in the film room, preseason and practice with all coaches present and discussing. They are not always correct but I trust coaches over board QBs like we are.
In a weird way I have less confidence in Parker than you do. I think Manu is better at penetrating just because he is physically stronger. But both tire quickly. Patty will have some bad games as his hyper footwork overplay defensive feet get him off balance and will fail him when people body him. It's happened too many times in the past. He gets up on his toes and is easy to move.

Unlike others here I would love to see Patty do well as he seems to be the most team oriented player we have as far as rooting for everyone. I just don't want the guy ruined in the wrong spot. I feel he might also have confidence issues. He can go very bad quickly.

I look at Manu as a player/coach/heart. They guy is still the most competitive person on our team. He was down on the ground grabbing, kicking, flailing after a lose ball just last night.... we got young guys who need to see that. He has not had a fantastic start, but with roster spots open and corporate knowlege we need him. Do you know if he has any designs on coaching later?

So much garbage about nothing. Giving sagirl a run for her money. :lmao

[ElNono]

Yep but functional observation is.
The observations take place in the film room, preseason and practice with all coaches present and discussing. They are not always correct but I trust coaches over board QBs like we are.
In a weird way I have less confidence in Parker than you do. I think Manu is better at penetrating just because he is physically stronger. But both tire quickly. Patty will have some bad games as his hyper footwork overplay defensive feet get him off balance and will fail him when people body him. It's happened too many times in the past. He gets up on his toes and is easy to move.

Unlike others here I would love to see Patty do well as he seems to be the most team oriented player we have as far as rooting for everyone. I just don't want the guy ruined in the wrong spot. I feel he might also have confidence issues. He can go very bad quickly.

I look at Manu as a player/coach/heart. They guy is still the most competitive person on our team. He was down on the ground grabbing, kicking, flailing after a lose ball just last night.... we got young guys who need to see that. He has not had a fantastic start, but with roster spots open and corporate knowlege we need him. Do you know if he has any designs on coaching later?

I for one like that Pop seems to be more willing to experiment this season (see my post above).

Manu has said he doesn't want to coach, and I have not heard any updates on that. But you never know, tbh... it's clear he loves the game. He might just be involved from a different spot. Not going to see him probably 'til February, but I'll try to lobby for another season if he's healthy :D

[GSH]

I don't want the first unit getting destroyed and we have to play from behind every single fucking game. How about we blow them up with our best unit for a change. I can already see this shit playing out in the Playoffs. :lmao


No, that's a good point. I think about it a lot. I wish we could have seen Patty with a complete first team. But even if LMA had been there, Danny would still have been out. My point, though, is that with Manu facilitating AND driving, plus Simmons constantly probing the paint, Tony's style of running the point becomes pretty superfluous. Not that he isn't still good enough to be a second-team PG, but that the second unit already has enough of what he does.

If they are going to move Patty to the SL, the smart move would probably be to trade Tony. But that's not going to happen. So you wind up with a struggle for minutes, touches, shots, etc. Dedmon and Lee both look capable of scoring from down low, so the last thing you need is an overflow of driving guards bringing more defenders into the paint.

I don't know. It looks to me like the balance of this team was tuned to having Tony start. If he's not up to it (and he may not be), it doesn't work so well, IMO.


Edit: BTW - why do you always have to put in the laughing emojis? You make some decent points. When you make fun of anyone who has a different opinion, it just pisses people off and starts more arguments than discussions.

[ElNono]

It will also be interesting to see how the first unit morphs on offense with Danny out there, and whether he's hitting or not. I think if he really starts hitting a lot, it actually can be a conduit to make Tony look better.

[dabom]

No, that's a good point. I think about it a lot. I wish we could have seen Patty with a complete first team. But even if LMA had been there, Danny would still have been out. My point, though, is that with Manu facilitating AND driving, plus Simmons constantly probing the paint, Tony's style of running the point becomes pretty superfluous. Not that he isn't still good enough to be a second-team PG, but that the second unit already has enough of what he does.

If they are going to move Patty to the SL, the smart move would probably be to trade Tony. But that's not going to happen. So you wind up with a struggle for minutes, touches, shots, etc. Dedmon and Lee both look capable of scoring from down low, so the last thing you need is an overflow of driving guards bringing more defenders into the paint.

I don't know. It looks to me like the balance of this team was tuned to having Tony start. If he's not up to it (and he may not be), it doesn't work so well, IMO.


Edit: BTW - why do you always have to put in the laughing emojis? You make some decent points. When you make fun of anyone who has a different opinion, it just pisses people off and starts more arguments than discussions.

The starters play more then the bench guys. And even more in the Playoffs. For all intensive purposes, improving the starting 5 should be the priority.
Starting Patty now would go a long ways into having great synergy. Much more than doing it 1 year from now.
And role players don't play great under pressure. They would probably do way better if they didn't have to CARRY the fucking starting unit. Maybe it's just me that thinks that.

[dabom]

Pop needs to show confidence on Patty too. He is your best point guard.

[pgardn]

Some damn good analysis in this thread (for a change). Tony is obviously struggling to do what he's always done against the first-team defensive units in the league. Logically, it seems like his experience and talent would still make him dangerous against any second unit defense. But...

Suppose Pop moves Patty to the starting lineup. Now you've got three guys who love to stand out on the perimeter and swoop into the paint (Tony, Many, and Simmons). And all three of them are coming off the bench.

Ah, hell. Most of you can see this coming. How do you fit all three of those guys onto a bench? I don't see how there's room for three guys who have that particular skill set, and personality. To me, it looks like if you put Patty in the SL, you really limit the minutes for one of those three guys - probably Manu or Simmons. So the question I have is whether moving Tony to the bench would create so much overlap on the bench that you would be wasting somebody's talents? Seems to me that making that move would basically call for a roster move of some kind.

Man I wish I could envision Parker swooping into the paint again. I see him as a safe ball handler now. For the time he spends with ball in hand his TOs are not horrible things that always lead to layups. How and where on the court a TO occurs are important. (Poor Manu's lead to layups) Parker still does fairly well at extricating himself when pinned against a sideline or baseline.

We are 4-0 with a new team. But I'm still not comfortable. If you take Parker out I can't see good fit. Might as well make him a pure reserve. And maybe at some point this season it needs to happen. But I have thought this before and then he will fool me and look quick for a game.

[pgardn]

It will also be interesting to see how the first unit morphs on offense with Danny out there, and whether he's hitting or not. I think if he really starts hitting a lot, it actually can be a conduit to make Tony look better.

Absolutely.

Very good point.

[dabom]

Man I wish I could envision Parker swooping into the paint again. I see him as a safe ball handler now. For the time he spends with ball in hand his TOs are not horrible things that always lead to layups. How and where on the court a TO occurs are important. (Poor Manu's lead to layups) Parker still does fairly well at extricating himself when pinned against a sideline or baseline.

We are 4-0 with a new team. But I'm still not comfortable. If you take Parker out I can't see good fit. Might as well make him a pure reserve. And maybe at some point this season it needs to happen. But I have thought this before and then he will fool me and look quick for a game.

:lmao

[GSH]

There's no easy solution, IMO... it's not as simple as swap guy A with guy B, tbh... but one thing I thought was interesting is that I think Pop isn't sold on either unit completely yet. He's a guy that would normally start Lapro if Tony is resting, just to keep the 2nd unit intact, but he didn't this time around. Might be nothing, but I think he's more willing to experiment, especially early in the season, and there's less "continuity" here and more "experimenting". Might be something to keep an eye on.


Opinions are worth what you pay for them. But IMO, Lap's style of PG would complement this starting unit best. A PG who facilitates the other scorers, but can score enough to keep defenses honest. And a guy who is a little taller, stronger, and tougher, who can stick his nose in when he gets caught on a switch. I don't think he's going to be able to step into a starting role, but I think the kind of PG he COULD be would work well with the SL best.

I've always been a fan of Don Nelson. He's never been afraid to experiment or innovate. He'll take a shit roster, and make them competitive. But he's also never won a Championship. The most likely thing is that Tony continues to start, with the exception of nights when he rests Tony.

[pgardn]

Opinions are worth what you pay for them. But IMO, Lap's style of PG would complement this starting unit best. A PG who facilitates the other scorers, but can score enough to keep defenses honest. And a guy who is a little taller, stronger, and tougher, who can stick his nose in when he gets caught on a switch. I don't think he's going to be able to step into a starting role, but I think the kind of PG he COULD be would work well with the SL best.

I've always been a fan of Don Nelson. He's never been afraid to experiment or innovate. He'll take a shit roster, and make them competitive. But he's also never won a Championship. The most likely thing is that Tony continues to start, with the exception of nights when he rests Tony.

I just have not seen enough of him.

But it's not a bad time to do some experimentation IMO.

Sorry if I have missed something but I have got the model train engineer on ignore.

[AFBlue]

Bala is on a tear to start the season, so I wouldn't begrudge any decision to elevate him. That said, you can manage both his and Tony's role and minutes without necessarily removing Tony from the starting spot.

[GSH]

The starters play more then the bench guys. And even more in the Playoffs. For all intensive purposes, improving the starting 5 should be the priority.
Starting Patty now would go a long ways into having great synergy. Much more than doing it 1 year from now.
And role players don't play great under pressure. They would probably do way better if they didn't have to CARRY the fucking starting unit. Maybe it's just me that thinks that.


No, like I said, you make some good points.

The Spurs have always (at least for a long time) gotten more mileage out of their bench than most teams. I think they have proven that you can be a very good team with a great starting lineup, but if you want to win Championships, you need a good bench too.

But your point about the bench carrying the SL makes a hell of a lot of sense. Everything I think about basketball says that you can't depend on that. Especially on the road. And really especially in the playoffs. I can't disagree with a lot of what you're saying.

You're talking about starting Patty now, to improve their chances next year. You realize that gets away from the "win now" mentality? If you're picturing the team as a serious contender to win it all this year, it's probably a different calculus than if you accept a likely second-round exit, and start focusing on winning it all next season. The more I look at the players they kept on this roster, the more I think they are serious about getting out of the Western Conference this year. IMO, that plays a big part in settling the roster for this season.

[tonight...you]

I just have not seen enough of him.

But it's not a bad time to do some experimentation IMO.

Sorry if I have missed something but I have got the model train engineer on ignore.

I agree with GSH (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=1519) on this one. Lapdog is probably the best set-up man on the team already. He just fits with the SL, while Patty is such a dynamo being one of the first guys off the bench and getting the majority of the minutes... I like that.
I'd like to see this happen, early on, while the experiments are being conducted.

Otherwise, should that not pan, I agree with dabom (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=47543). Get your best players together, synergize and don't make your bench carry the burden of bringing the team back from the SL's deficit.

[ElNono]

Opinions are worth what you pay for them. But IMO, Lap's style of PG would complement this starting unit best. A PG who facilitates the other scorers, but can score enough to keep defenses honest. And a guy who is a little taller, stronger, and tougher, who can stick his nose in when he gets caught on a switch. I don't think he's going to be able to step into a starting role, but I think the kind of PG he COULD be would work well with the SL best.

I've always been a fan of Don Nelson. He's never been afraid to experiment or innovate. He'll take a shit roster, and make them competitive. But he's also never won a Championship. The most likely thing is that Tony continues to start, with the exception of nights when he rests Tony.

Ehhhh.... I dunno... sure, an upgrade on defense in the perimeter, on top of Danny and Kawhi, would be tremendous, but barring that, a really good shooter would fit really well with this team's SL makeup.

It's the pick your poison stuff... you guard one on one, Kawhi and LMA will burn you. You start doubling and you really need to pick your poison well, because if you have two really good shooters, plus Pau inside to clean up anything, it's really deadly, IMO.

The floor general stuff is more suited for the highly choreographed team game type of thing we used to run when we didn't really have a star anymore and ISOs were really not our first option. Lot of off the ball movement, some flex... it served us well for a while. When Tim was still GOAT, we ran 4-down and 4 shooters pretty much all game. I feel we're back into that to some extent.

[tmtcsc]

Patty is the better player now and it has nothing to do with Parker's weight. He's too slow and old now. He's done.

[dabom]

No, like I said, you make some good points.

The Spurs have always (at least for a long time) gotten more mileage out of their bench than most teams. I think they have proven that you can be a very good team with a great starting lineup, but if you want to win Championships, you need a good bench too.

But your point about the bench carrying the SL makes a hell of a lot of sense. Everything I think about basketball says that you can't depend on that. Especially on the road. And really especially in the playoffs. I can't disagree with a lot of what you're saying.

You're talking about starting Patty now, to improve their chances next year. You realize that gets away from the "win now" mentality? If you're picturing the team as a serious contender to win it all this year, it's probably a different calculus than if you accept a likely second-round exit, and start focusing on winning it all next season. The more I look at the players they kept on this roster, the more I think they are serious about getting out of the Western Conference this year. IMO, that plays a big part in settling the roster for this season.

Next year but this season. If Spurs are losing and they elect to start Patty, don't expect it to blow the game wide open. They need to make that move now. And Tony is and has been trending down for a long time now. Don't expect him to have a throw back series. You get what you see and worse possibly. Those are your options. We can't have a wait and see approach 3 years in a row for tony.

[GSH]

Man I wish I could envision Parker swooping into the paint again. I see him as a safe ball handler now. For the time he spends with ball in hand his TOs are not horrible things that always lead to layups. How and where on the court a TO occurs are important. (Poor Manu's lead to layups) Parker still does fairly well at extricating himself when pinned against a sideline or baseline.

We are 4-0 with a new team. But I'm still not comfortable. If you take Parker out I can't see good fit. Might as well make him a pure reserve. And maybe at some point this season it needs to happen. But I have thought this before and then he will fool me and look quick for a game.


I'm going to bed after this. Maybe I'm wrong, but to me it looks like that's exactly what Parker wants to do. Keeps trying to do.

Handling the ball isn't worth shit. Tony stands out on the perimater and handles, handles, handles. Yeah, it's safe - because defenses are perfectly willing to watch. He's always looked to score first, and distribute second. And that's great as long as he has the jets to do it. Hell, he really was the head of the snake for a while. But now (it looks to me) he's still looking to distribute as an afterthought, but there's no real threat for him to do it on his own.

I'm not a Parker-hater. But I see a lot of guys having to create for themselves, because he's safely handling the ball, but not doing much to facilitate the offense.

I'm saying that I think Patty would be the better starter. And Tony might be able to penetrate more consistently against bench defenders. But I'm not so sure that the second team needs another guy driving the paint.

[DPG21920]

People need to relax. SA is 0-4 and the bench looks strong which was a concern (at least for me). No DG, TP not looking great and the SL is still a +.

Let things play out with Danny back. No need to change anything when you already are starting to see a bench play well together and the team is winning. Plenty of time to make changes.

[dabom]

Parker fam saying the same thing 3 years in a row. When will they learn. We won 67 games last year and got owned with Turd Towers and Fathead. Everyone smart enough saw it early on. Same thing this year. If the only reason is "just cause we winning",you got no reason.

[dabom]

And Parker being garbage. But we let that one slide since he still could have possibly been better. Not anymore. Patty is the best player, and tony ain't the player he once was.

[DPG21920]

I mean, I know the SL with Kyle in it alongside brand new Pau and TP is not a positive but it's still a small sample and that doesn't seem terribly unexpected.

Danny changes a lot. Pau adjusting changes a lot. Still early.

[DPG21920]

Parker fam saying the same thing 3 years in a row. When will they learn. We won 67 games last year and got owned with Turd Towers and Fathead. Everyone smart enough saw it early on. Same thing this year. If the only reason is "just cause we winning",you got no reason.

Didn't get owned. That is mega-hyperbole. The Spurs went cold as a whole and still almost beat OKC (lots of bad calls didn't go SA way and they went frozen cold and still could have won every game). They did not get owned and Timmy not being able to give anything for the majority of the series played a role in losing too.

[dabom]

We've seen Kawhi and Patty always has a huge net positive. Been like that for a long time. It's not just these few games.

[dabom]

Didn't get owned. That is mega-hyperbole. The Spurs went cold as a whole and still almost beat OKC (lots of bad calls didn't go SA way and they went frozen cold and still could have won every game). They did not get owned and Timmy not being able to give anything for the majority of the series played a role in losing too.

Parker being a liability all series. Dude never rises when the chips are down. If that isn't the biggest red flag, I don't know what is.

[dabom]

Playoffs Box Plus Minus. Tony

2013-14 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parketo01/gamelog/2014/)
31
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2014.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html)
PG
23
719
15.8
.531
.101
.202
0.8
6.4
3.7
26.1
1.1
0.2
14.1
28.3

0.3
0.7
1.1
.071

0.0
-1.3
-1.2
0.1


2014-15 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parketo01/gamelog/2015/)
32
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015.html)
PG
7
210
6.5
.386
.099
.187
2.0
10.0
5.8
18.9
0.5
0.0
10.0
23.4

-0.4
0.1
-0.3
-0.067

-6.2
-0.3
-6.5
-0.2


2015-16 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parketo01/gamelog/2016/)
33
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016.html)
PG
10
264
14.3
.499
.163
.143
0.5
8.7
4.8
31.4
1.2
0.6
14.7
21.6

0.2
0.3
0.4
.079

0.7
-1.5
-0.9
0.1



Playoffs Box Plus Minus. Patty


2013-14 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millspa02/gamelog/2014/)
25
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2014.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2014.html)
PG
23
351
16.2
.573
.560
.092
1.0
10.4
5.8
14.6
2.5
0.2
8.7
21.3

0.5
0.5
1.1
.146

3.6
0.2
3.8
0.5


2014-15 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millspa02/gamelog/2015/)
26
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015.html)
PG
7
112
23.4
.744
.667
.310
3.7
14.8
9.1
11.9
0.9
0.0
9.5
21.1

0.5
0.1
0.6
.262

7.4
-0.7
6.8
0.2


2015-16 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millspa02/gamelog/2016/)
27
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016.html)
PG
10
167
15.2
.571
.679
.208
0.0
9.1
4.8
17.9
2.2
0.0
12.2
18.4

0.2
0.2
0.4
.124

3.7
-1.1
2.6
0.2

[baseline bum]

I never thought Parker would be worse than he was in the 2015 Playoffs, but he has morphed into half that player. The team has to really look into buying him out.

[benfti]

This nigga pgardn still thinks that bringing the ball up the court is some super complex skillset that MVPaddy doesn't have. :lol

:cry he only has 8 secs to get past halfcourt, idk if Patty can do it :cry

He had no problems bringing it up the court without Manu in the Olympics,either, this whole he can't play without him is an absolute myth.

[Fireball]

There is a reason you do not play your best lineups for most of the time ... Warriors did not start their Death lineup in the regular season either. Sometimes a scoring punch from the bench brings more benefits than adding that punch into the starting lineup which already has scorers like Kawhi, LMA, Gasol and hopefully soon DG.

[Em-City]

He had no problems bringing it up the court without Manu in the Olympics,either, this whole he can't play without him is an absolute myth.
except delly was the primary ball handler in most instances.

[ceds]

The point guard position is he toughest cover in the NBA.

Its only been 4 games but Mills has been above average on that side of the ball. He's a tough SOB and right now is in peak physical condition.

Your also going to get a few steals and hustle plays from him each game.

The liability days are over

[TheDoctor]

People need to relax. SA is 0-4 and the bench looks strong which was a concern (at least for me). No DG, TP not looking great and the SL is still a +.

Let things play out with Danny back. No need to change anything when you already are starting to see a bench play well together and the team is winning. Plenty of time to make changes.

Talking about Danny, I just want to see that Patty, Verde, Kawhi, LaMarcus, Dedmon lineup in action.

[Brazil]

It's only 4 games, Spurs are 4/0. that's about it tbh

What we saw so far is that the last 5 mn of the games are going to be: ball to kawhi and gtfo much like with Manu some years ago. In that configuration Patty makes more sense than Tony because of his shooting. I don't see current configuration as a big issue. Bench is doing well, SL is doing well and last 5 mn units is doing well so far. So yeah why not stick to it for a while, add Danny, get a Pau more comfortable and draw conclusions afterwards ?

Now Parker would benefit greatly to play with the bench but there is no indication that would be better for the Spurs as a whole.

[gambit1990]

People need to relax. SA is 0-4
parker isn't getting younger.

[gambit1990]

tp's current WS/48 is .002. patty's is .327.

[dabom]

It's only 4 games, Spurs are 4/0. that's about it tbh

What we saw so far is that the last 5 mn of the games are going to be: ball to kawhi and gtfo much like with Manu some years ago. In that configuration Patty makes more sense than Tony because of his shooting. I don't see current configuration as a big issue. Bench is doing well, SL is doing well and last 5 mn units is doing well so far. So yeah why not stick to it for a while, add Danny, get a Pau more comfortable and draw conclusions afterwards ?

Now Parker would benefit greatly to play with the bench but there is no indication that would be better for the Spurs as a whole.

It's not about the now. It's about when we play tough competition in the playoffs. Winning games in the regular season doesn't mean anything.

[gambit1990]

It's not about the now. It's about when we play tough competition in the playoffs. Winning games in the regular season doesn't mean anything.
exactly.

parker may play better this season but his limited ability will definitely be apparent in the playoffs.

[Brazil]

It's not about the now. It's about when we play tough competition in the playoffs. Winning games in the regular season doesn't mean anything.

brah I don't disagree but there is plenty of time to figure it out. We are forgetting that the team is now playing without Tim, has to get Pau acclimated, plays without Danny and get to acclimate MVP Kawhi playing like a MVP... that's a lot. I think there is no need / rush to change yet another position in the starting 5.

Parker is playing like crap of course but I've watched Dubs game yesterday night and honestly he did pretty good tbh offensively and defensively in that first game. I've called him done after last euro and he is done with his prime, on the decline etc etc... does not mean he cannot be serviceable.

Now debate is open but will be more interesting in a couple of months imho fwiw

[SASdynasty!]

And Parker being garbage. But we let that one slide since he still could have possibly been better. Not anymore. Patty is the best player, and tony ain't the player he once was.
Wait Parker was garbage in the OKC series? Here, let me bring you back to reality:

Parker: 11/6/3 on 47%
Mills: 4/2/2 on 42%

Mills absolutely disappeared. He couldn't score and he couldn't distribute. He was pure garbage. He was a useless player who couldn't even produce against OKC's bench. Once Parker has a playoff series even close to that level of non-production, let's talk.

[SASdynasty!]

tp's current WS/48 is .002. patty's is .327.
Is this the stat that Boban led the team in last season?

[rastaspur]

Tony doesnt fit with the second unit. Make him a token starter and dont give him more than 20 to 24 minutes on any given night.

If he is still stinking it up come february drop his minutes to 20 or less a night.

[Perry Mason]

Wait Parker was garbage in the OKC series? Here, let me bring you back to reality:

Parker: 11/6/3 on 47%
Mills: 4/2/2 on 42%

Mills absolutely disappeared. He couldn't score and he couldn't distribute. He was pure garbage. He was a useless player who couldn't even produce against OKC's bench. Once Parker has a playoff series even close to that level of non-production, let's talk.

But wait, I thought El Nono said there was no evidence that Patty can't control the ball as well as Parker, and I think he brought up a Portland series where it was Parker's ball control and speed that destroyed that team, an OKC series where Patty was more or less a bit player (and it was Boris that won us Game 6, with Tim's heroics), and the Heat series where Patty (who did play great) and the second-unit were playing summertime, which is something the starting lineup doesn't do (nearly as much anyway).

I like El Nono of course and value his opinion, but honestly this "no evidence" line is just...bizarre. Any basketball coach can see Patty's historical weakness as a primary ball-handler. It's flat out obvious.

Nevertheless, I believe in Patty. When the Spurs took him, I was his biggest cheerleader and said he would surprise a lot of people, even though the RD's of the board were saying he was garbage.

Let's remember that the last two seasons, Patty has been a big disappointment. We chalked up 2015 to his injury. Last year I wondered if he would just flame out. Now, four games in, perhaps he can start. But let's not pretend like its just a question of who shoots better. The offense is not just 4 down with the starters, as has been implied. As this discussion shows, a lot of negative things can happen to the bench if Patty leaves it, and Patty with the starters is still an experiment. I don't care what works better in the regular season when defense is not as tight. It's the playoffs where I care. Whatever happens, I expect Pop to make the right call on this one. If TP needs to go, he needs to go. But let's wait a see a bit and not act like the decision is just cake.

[ElNono]

But wait, I thought El Nono said there was no evidence that Patty can't control the ball as well as Parker, and I think he brought up a Portland series where it was Parker's ball control and speed that destroyed that team, an OKC series where Patty was more or less a bit player (and it was Boris that won us Game 6, with Tim's heroics), and the Heat series where Patty (who did play great) and the second-unit were playing summertime, which is something the starting lineup doesn't do (nearly as much anyway).

I like El Nono of course and value his opinion, but honestly this "no evidence" line is just...bizarre. Any basketball coach can see Patty's historical weakness as a primary ball-handler. It's flat out obvious.

Nevertheless, I believe in Patty. When the Spurs took him, I was his biggest cheerleader and said he would surprise a lot of people, even though the RD's of the board were saying he was garbage.

Perry, my answer was about the allegation that Patty can't handle full-court pressure, which is one argument that was brought up as why he couldn't start.

And there's zero evidence of that. To the contrary, his handles are perfectly fine. He's played in pressure-packed games, handled himself and the ball well, etc. I mentioned the Portland and OKC series in '14 as an example of that: Tony couldn't play, and Patty had no problem running the point diligently in a high stakes game. Not to mention Game 5 (and series really) of the 2014 Finals, where he was more than just good, he was terrific.

If you or somebody else want to make the argument that Tony is a better floor general, then I would actually agree. Although, as I also mentioned later on in the thread, I don't think the current SL need a floor general-type, due to mostly how they play at the moment.

[Snaq O'Meal]

If you or somebody else want to make the argument that Tony is a better floor general, then I would actually agree. Although, as I also mentioned later on in the thread, I don't think the current SL need a floor general-type, due to mostly how they play at the moment.

http://i.imgbox.com/hHooCE9u.gif

https://i.imgbox.com/As9SBTGT.gif

Not much of a floor general tbh.

[pgardn]

http://i.imgbox.com/hHooCE9u.gif

https://i.imgbox.com/As9SBTGT.gif

Not much of a floor general tbh.

Well this proves it. Case closed.

Christ...