Slam Online: Spurs Preview

[implacable44]

On to our NBA preview. After going north of the border yesterday and getting Rafer traded, let's go to San Antonio and check out the Spurs...


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WHAT'S YOUR NAME AND WHERE DO YOU LIVE?: Mark Guymon- North Richland Hills, Texas, by way of Live Oak.

YOUR TEAM IS: The World Champion and dynasty in the making San Antonio Spurs.

WHY IS THIS YOUR FAVORITE TEAM?: There are several reasons, the first of which being that is my hometown team and for anyone who has ever left their town and gone onto, say, a college environment or whatever -- hometown pride boils over. I remember when I went to play basketball in Idaho there were a few cats from D.C. (actually Maryland and Virginia but the whole East Coast is either D.C. or New York), if we weren't clowning on each other then we were arguing about whose hometown was better and what athletes came from home and what championships we had back home and all I can say now is "Scoreboard: To all of Rainbow 26. SPURS - SCOREBOARD."

Second, I like the way the Spurs play, except for blowing those big leads. They are a true team. Timmy (can't call him T, Robot for all the Spurs fans that got on my back last year being ignorant of the Links and all -- they didn't appreciate the nickname) is the best player in the League and the T-E-A-M around him is perfect because everybody knows and plays to their roles. They play hard defense on the perimeter and in the paint and they have the best ball movement in the NBA. They play the way they act -- it is an attitude and a mindset down in San Antone and it is reflected throughout the organization.

WHO IS RETURNING FROM LAST YEAR?: Tony Parker, Brent Barry, Nazr Mohammed, Bruce Bowen, Rasho Nesterovic (unfortunately), Sean Marks, Beno Udrih, Manu Ginobili (got cheated for finals MVP), Tim Duncan and of course Big Shot Rob -- my apologies to his biggest fan for my review last year where I questioned Rob's heart -- she was all over me about that. Okay he redemmed himself from his Doug Christie impersonation from 2 years ago.

WHO SKIPPED TOWN?: Rasho Nesterovic went to Seattle along with Bruce Bowen and Sean Marks for Jerome James and Ray Al…..what? oh sorry I am awake now. Homegrown product Devin Brown bolted to the Jazz. Glenn Robinson and 12 team journeyman (nba record) Tony Massenburg both got their rings and left.

WHO HAS YOUR TEAM ADDED?: Fabricio Oberto, Nick Van Exel and Michael Finley. I like the pick-ups. I know a lot of people wonder about the volatile Van Exel and how he will fit in with the mellow Spurs -- personally, I think it will be great to have a little attitude and the clutch shooting is a huge plus. Anything has to be better than Beno -- is there a point guard in the L with a worse handle? My only concern is will he play defense? Should be easy to play D when you know Tim has your back. Finley -- I love this pick-up. I live up in Mavland so I got to hear how they hated his jump-shooting and his questionable handle. They didn't appreciate the forced shots and the pump-fake fade-a-way. Thing is, dude shot 41-percent from the 3 point line in the Playoffs last year and has a career 38 percent. He is an athletic wing who can score and his percentage should shoot up since the Spurs want him to shoot threes and jumpers -- perfect fit. The beauty of it is, if either of them don't mesh then we don't need them and they will sit. Same team is returning from last year that won the title. They can either fit-in or sit-out.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT YOUR TEAM'S COACH?: Pop is the man -- he is the general -- undisputed. He is respected by his players and peers and he has a successful style and approach. You gotta love his attitude. He is one of the true coaches left -- Jerry Sloan, Pop, that is about it I guess. Maybe Phil but I hate the Lakers so scratch that. He gets his players open shots and puts them in a position to succeed and he wins.

WHICH PLAYER IS THE KEY TO YOUR TEAM'S SUCCESS THIS SEASON?: Manu - Manu – Manu. As I stated initially, he got cheated out of the finals MVP but Tim was a good choice. Manu plays great defense and he can score. He is aggressive and you gotta love his game -- sometimes he makes a silly play or two with a bad turnover but man, he came up BIG in the playoffs didn't he? Let me drop some Spanish: Manu es el Corazon de este equipo. Manu no tiene miedo de nada o de nadie. El tira de lejos, saca rebotes, juega la defense mejor que Bowen y el puede anotar puntos y asistencias. Manu es bueno y si el siga jugando al mismo nivel -- Los spurs van a ganar y ganar -- y ganar -– y ganar y ganar mas. Me imagino que en este temporada, Manu va a ser aun mejor porque su amigo Oberto firmo el contrato con Los Spurs.

WHAT TEAM DO YOU MOST WANT TO BEAT?: The Pistons. I mean, you could rationalize and say the Heat might come out of the East and it is always good to beat Shaq -- he played in San Antonio at Cole and he came up 2 years before I did, and we used to play in AAU summer ball and at Randolph or Fort Sam but you never hear him call San Antonio home and he has scheduled parties in the past when he came to town and no-showed. So it is always good to beat Shaq. And of course you will have to want to beat the Mavs just for Finley. But the team to beat and be concerned with is the Pistons. I still think they will come out of the East over the Pacers.

WHAT TEAM DO YOU MOST NEED TO BEAT?: The Pistons. You have to get and maintain that edge over the team you are probably going to face in the Finals.

WHO IS THE MOST IMPORTANT NEW PLAYER ON YOUR TEAM?: Van Exel. I actually think he will start a few games depending on how Parker plays. You know he has a tendency to be somewhat erratic -- you didn't know that about Tony? Nick won't be -- he might be off on his jumper but he plays the same regardless. He won't shy away from contact either or a challenge. I see him coming up big as he has for his whole career and he will do it in big games.

YOUR GENERAL MANAGER -- DISCUSS: I wasn't too sold on R.C. Buford, but I am more and more convinced of his talents. Especially with this off-season. The only other thing I would have liked was for them to move Rasho. He just doesn't fit. He is a good player and could fit in pretty well in another system but not with the Spurs -- he hasn't been able to find his role or fulfill it. R.C. Buford has built a darn good team down there in San Antonio though and he does it the same way he runs the franchise -- the right way.

IN WHAT WAYS DOES YOUR TEAM NEED TO IMPROVE?: Putting teams away. I think Van Exel will help with that and so will Finley. The Spurs need to put teams away. Historically the Spurs will get a big lead and then they either appear to get bored or they get disinterested and lose focus and teams come back. This year the Spurs need to put teams away early and often -- I mean, how many teams would have lost to the Rockets like that with McGrady hitting all those threes? I had to hear it from my brother -- the biggest T-Mac co-signer on the planet for a solid month.

WHERE DO YOU HOPE YOUR TEAM CAN FINISH THIS SEASON?: Anything less than a title will be a terrible failure. I would actually go out on a limb and predict a new regular season win record but I fear the injury and I fear the Spurs focus during the regular season is not what it should be. Jordan and the Bulls had the same focus against the Clippers on Day 1 that they had against the Jazz in Game 6. The Spurs don't have that focus. If they can get it, they will break the record.

OK, NOW REALLY, WHERE WILL THEY ACTUALLY FINISH THIS SEASON?: On their way to at least a three peat. They will win it again this year and they look good to win three in a row which will be wonderful as they establish themselves as a dynasty and solidify Tim's career as one of the best ever. Dude can play and that sense of humor...

WHAT SHOULD YOUR TEAM'S SLOGAN BE THIS SEASON?: Dynasty. The Spurs are a dynasty. They are the better version of the Patriots of the NBA -- they just win. Dynasty should be on the locker room wall.


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Thanks, Mark. Now for my quick take...
It was interesting to read you mention how Rasho doesn't really fit in. When I talked with RC Buford last season, the Spurs had just acquired Nazr, and he was saying how when they signed Rasho, it was between Rasho and Michael Olowokandi. They knew they needed a center, and they had enough money to sign either one and basically had to choose. They picked Rasho because he was a better at-the-rim defender. The whole Spurs philosophy is to funnel everyone baseline and then have TD and Rasho meet them at the rim. That's really all they want Rasho to do -- defend the rim. if he can score, great. Why bring this up? Because I'm curious about Van Exel's defense, too. He's never been a particularly amazing defender, but now he's going to be expected to shut down a particular area of the floor -- stopping guards from driving the center of the lane. If one guy screws up their assignment, it messes everything up for the Spurs, which is why despite his inconsistencies, the Spurs like Tony Parker so much -- he can stop guys from driving down the center of the paint. Still, Mark, you hit it on the head when you pointed out how even if the new guys don't work out, the Spurs should be fine. Pop is the best in the biz, and unless injuries hit, I'm going with the Spurs to repeat.

[Solid D]

No link. No cred.

[batman2883]

WHO IS RETURNING FROM LAST YEAR?: Tony Parker, Brent Barry, Nazr Mohammed, Bruce Bowen, Rasho Nesterovic (unfortunately), Sean Marks, Beno Udrih, Manu Ginobili (got cheated for finals MVP), Tim Duncan and of course Big Shot Rob -- my apologies to his biggest fan for my review last year where I questioned Rob's heart -- she was all over me about that. Okay he redemmed himself from his Doug Christie impersonation from 2 years ago.

ha ha ha ha hah a ha

[ambchang]

He lost me when he fantasized about trading Bowen away, and getting Jerome James and ovary in return.

[nkdlunch]

crap article

[implacable44]

here is your link punk : http://slamonline.com/links/10032005/index1.html

dont question me - and if you don't think that ray allen and jerome james would be an upgrade to this roster you are as dumb as you appear.

It is funny you can call him ovary but if he was a Spur and Bowen was a Sonic you would be calling Bowen dirty - I guess you hate that Finley is here too - maybe he should be Uterus or fallopian tube because he complained more than Ray Allen ever did.

[nkdlunch]

Manu Ginobili (got cheated for finals MVP),


:rolleyes



WHO SKIPPED TOWN?: Rasho Nesterovic went to Seattle along with Bruce Bowen and Sean Marks for Jerome James and Ray Al…..what? oh sorry I am awake now.


Fuck Ray ray and Trashman



Anything has to be better than Beno -- is there a point guard in the L with a worse handle? My only concern is will he play defense? Should be easy to play D when you know Tim has your back.


He was a freaking rookie!!!



WHICH PLAYER IS THE KEY TO YOUR TEAM'S SUCCESS THIS SEASON?: Manu - Manu – Manu. As I stated initially, he got cheated out of the finals MVP but Tim was a good choice. Manu plays great defense and he can score.


:rolleyes :rolleyes


and that is why I thought the article was CRAP :)

[Solid D]

Thanks for the link. Still no cred.

[implacable44]

thanks for the comment - no link though - no cred and your opinion is pointless.

[samikeyp]

dont question me

who are you not to be questioned?


It is funny you can call him ovary but if he was a Spur and Bowen was a Sonic you would be calling Bowen dirty

If he was a Spur and still whined like he did, I would still drop the "strained ovary" card.

[implacable44]

I doubt you would call him ovary as he was dropping threes and winning games and obviously I guess you would call Bowen a dirty player. I mean I am a Spurs fan but the way Bowen jumps at people when they shoot and forces them to land funny or on his feet is dirty - if you don;t know that then you have never played ball.

[travis2]

here is your link punk : http://slamonline.com/links/10032005/index1.html

dont question me - and if you don't think that ray allen and jerome james would be an upgrade to this roster you are as dumb as you appear.

It is funny you can call him ovary but if he was a Spur and Bowen was a Sonic you would be calling Bowen dirty - I guess you hate that Finley is here too - maybe he should be Uterus or fallopian tube because he complained more than Ray Allen ever did.

Don't question you? Who died and made you God?

[nkdlunch]

I doubt you would call him ovary as he was dropping threes and winning games and obviously I guess you would call Bowen a dirty player. I mean I am a Spurs fan but the way Bowen jumps at people when they shoot and forces them to land funny or on his feet is dirty - if you don;t know that then you have never played ball.

if you really think that, then u ain't a true spur fan. U either another one of the undercover trolls. or a fresh Bandwagon fan.

[implacable44]

well God never dies so - nobody I guess. Dont question me is advice because I will prove you wrong. - case in point - man requested a link and he got a link.

I really think that - I know that to be true. It is something you don't do when you play ball. Ask anyone and they will tell you it is dirty to jump at someone like he does when they shoot and force them to land on his feet or fall. - I still think he is a good player and I am not complaining too loud - but dirty it is and if you knew how to play ball then you would recognize.

Not sure what you mean by uncercover troll - got a link ?

fresh bandwagon fan - boy recognize - I grew up in San Antone --Judson Product - been a fan since the days of Silas, Gervin and the A-train- Johnny moore and Mike Mitchell - don't come at me with bandwagon garbage.

[coopdogg3]

You didn't prove anybody wrong. They asked for a link. You provided a link. You didn't prove anything.

And I don't think Bowen is a dirty player. And yes, I have played the game my whole life. Has Bowen done an occasional dirty play? Sure. He plays close to the edge, he gives most of his effort on the defensive end, and he never gives up. Add that all together and occasionally he MAY cross the line. But I don't think it's intentional so I wouldn't call him a dirty player.

coopdogg3

[Kori Ellis]

This is the weirdest thread. Why are you all attacking the guy for posting this? And then why is he responding so hostile?

Agree or disagree with the article but don't take it so personally.

[LilMissSPURfect]

On to our NBA preview. After going north of the border yesterday and getting Rafer traded, let's go to San Antonio and check out the Spurs...


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the Spurs should be fine. Pop is the best in the biz, and unless injuries hit, I'm going with the Spurs to repeat.



ME TOO ;-)

[samikeyp]

I doubt you would call him ovary as he was dropping threes and winning games

for that...no...if he was whining, even if he was a Spur,...yes.

[~Chris~]

Dont question me is advice because I will prove you wrong. - case in point - man requested a link and he got a link.



Not sure what you mean by uncercover troll - got a link ?


:lol

This guy is hilarious.. it's funny because I think he's actually serious.

[implacable44]

WHat didnt I prove - he questioned the veracity of the post - I proved it - logic!

I agree with you on Bowen - that is what I said - but the main thing Ray was whining about was the way he jumped at his feet when he shot jumpers.

[samikeyp]

I really think that - I know that to be true. It is something you don't do when you play ball.

Good point. Something else you don't do is whine and bitch about the other team. At least in my old neighborhood, that would have gotten your ass kicked. I know this is old school of me and in today's Sportscenter, And-1, me-me-me world its not a fundamental ideal anymore but I have always had the belief that you let your play do the talking. Don't whine, don't bitch, just shut up and play. If you are good enough...and Ray Allen is....your game speaks for itself.

[Kori Ellis]

Speaking of Ray Allen ...

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=537812#post537812

[implacable44]

I Agree with that - I am of the old school philosophy too but right now I work up in Dallas a lot and the sports guys up in Dallas say that Tim, Manu, Tony and Bowen all whine and cry about everything. IT is perception I guess - or some could say psychological - in the sense that Ray thinks if he whines about those plays enough he will get more calls and Bowen wont play as hard on him - didnt work but maybe that was his thought. -

Chris - I am serious buddy - what is an undercover troll and I was a Spurs fan when you were a twinkle in my eye.

[TOP-CHERRY]

Shut up already.

Going back to the article, I really agree with this:

WHERE DO YOU HOPE YOUR TEAM CAN FINISH THIS SEASON?: Anything less than a title will be a terrible failure. I would actually go out on a limb and predict a new regular season win record but I fear the injury and I fear the Spurs focus during the regular season is not what it should be. Jordan and the Bulls had the same focus against the Clippers on Day 1 that they had against the Jazz in Game 6. The Spurs don't have that focus. If they can get it, they will break the record.

[sprrs]

juega la defense mejor que Bowen

This guy thinks Manu plays better defense than Bowen
:lol

Manu plays great defense but he definitely doesn't play better than Bowen. I don't think I'll be trusting this guy

[FromWayDowntown]

I wouldn't want any part of the trade proposed because I wouldn't touch Jerome James. What on Earth has James ever done. He's a 7 footer who averaged 3 rebounds per game last season and couldn't stay on the floor for 20 minutes a night.

He's got zero offensive game -- IF you can get him free on a pick-and-roll, he has a chance to score. But if teams deny him the roll and force him to do anything other than dunk (which he hasn't shown an ability to do outside of a pick-and-roll) he's completely useless offensively.

He's not very good defensively either. Say what you will about Rasho, but at least Rasho usually hits the boards and defends the rim. Given that Rasho has much, much more offensive game than James, there's no way that I'd take James over Rasho.

I also don't know why you'd want to add Ray Allen to this team. Ray is a tremendous shooter and a legitimate all-star, but if you bring him here, you have 2 guys who can do more or less the same things. Manu has better handles and plays much better defense than Ray; Ray is a better shooter than Manu. But only one of them can have the ball at any given time, and when either of them have the ball, Tim Duncan doesn't. Beyond that, what are you going to do defensively if you add Ray Allen? Are you going to play Ray or Manu against good offensive 3s (either will be overmatched in having to defend guys like Marion or Lebron -- and whichever one defends that guy is likely to struggle on the offensive end), or are you just going to concede points to those guys and hope, in Suns fashion, that you'll score enough points to win?

The beauty of the Finley deal is that Finley can play alongside Bowen and the Spurs won't lose defensive presence. If and when Finley plays alongside Manu, it won't be in long stretches and for those short periods, Finley is a perfect compliment as a spot-up three point shooter who will pretty much do that and that alone. With that, Finley is a better defender than Allen and is strong enough to battle with stronger wings while Bowen takes his rest. Ray Allen lacks that ability.

I appreciate the creativity, but I don't see that as a solution. Not that there's a problem.

[samikeyp]

I work up in Dallas a lot and the sports guys up in Dallas say that Tim, Manu, Tony and Bowen all whine and cry about everything.

jealousy is a bitch! :lol

[implacable44]

WHo you telling to shut up ?

I didn't think there was a problem either I think ray allen and michael finley are pretty much the same type of player except ray allen is much better. Ray could play with either bowen or manu and to you SPRRS man - Manu plays much better defense than Bowen - ask Kobe who he would rather have gaurd him - Manu or Bowen. Manu plays honest on ball defense and still gets in the passing lanes - helps and he will give it to you on the offensive end. I will take his defense over Bowens any day. - Ray averaged 24 points a game against the Spurs in the playoffs and he was hurt.

[implacable44]

oh so when people say it about the spurs it is jealousy but when you say it is is gospel ?

[travis2]

Manu plays good defense...but he does in no way, shape, or form play better defense than Bowen.

[TOP-CHERRY]

WHo you telling to shut up ?
Feisty little fella, aren't ya?


I didn't think there was a problem either I think ray allen and michael finley are pretty much the same type of player except ray allen is much better. Ray could play with either bowen or manu and to you SPRRS man - Manu plays much better defense than Bowen - ask Kobe who he would rather have gaurd him - Manu or Bowen. Manu plays honest on ball defense and still gets in the passing lanes - helps and he will give it to you on the offensive end. I will take his defense over Bowens any day. - Ray averaged 24 points a game against the Spurs in the playoffs and he was hurt.
Nothing sadder than an actual Spurs fan who doesn't appreciate what Bruce Bowen has done for our team.

[Kori Ellis]

In the first round, Ray averaged 32 ppg on 51% shooting. Against the Spurs, he averaged 21 ppg on 43% shooting. Of course he's going to get his points. Bowen's job is to make him work for it.

As for Manu's D being better than Bowen's D, that's laughable. Ask every coach and player in the NBA, and they'll tell you Bowen (along with Artest) are the top 2 perimeter defenders in the game.

[samikeyp]

I think Manu's D is underrated but IMO its not better than Bowen's.

[TOP-CHERRY]

I think Manu's D is underrated but IMO its not better than Bowen's.
Manu's D isn't underrated when people say it's better than Bowen's.

:)

[Kori Ellis]

One thing I do agree with you on is that fans of other teams think that Manu and Tim whine just as much as Spurs fans think Ray whines.

The HUGE difference is that Manu and Tim never whine or complain in the press. Ray (as well as Vince Carter) has made that his M.O. and is laughed about around the league because of it. Many people within their organization have even said that he needs to concentrate on basketball and not complain to the press. He really let's Bowen get in his head.

[samikeyp]

Kori is right about the whining. There was even at time at a GTG when Kori and I were complaining about Tim. I think it was one of the regular season ones. Tim did something stupid and we were both basically saying "shut up and play" A lot of players tend to whine at times...even the best ones.

[implacable44]

Ray's percentage dropped because of his injury and I in no way shape or form take anything away from what Bowen does on the floor. I can also guarantee you that if you asked any coach and or player in the NBA who plays the best perimeter defense they will not universally name Artest and Bowen. I assure you that Kobe will be in there - Iverson will be in there as will Larru Hughes, Mcgrady and a few others like T. Prince, Andre Kirileinko. There will be no universal choice - maybe Artest but I doubt it. Bowen is good at what he does and he is effective but people won't pick him because they will be able to rest on defense. He doesnt make people work on defense so they save all thier energy for offense.

[samikeyp]

I can also guarantee you that if you asked any coach and or player in the NBA who plays the best perimeter defense they will not universally name Artest and Bowen.

I disagree. While neither you or I can guarantee that since we are not in on those conversations, Bowen is always mentioned in those discussions that are pubilshed and Kobe is usually not in there.

[Kori Ellis]

Did you even watch the Spurs playoffs?

Did you see Bowen shut down Carmelo, Marion, Rip and then Chauncey when called upon?

Kobe used to be considered a good defender.

Larry Hughes and Allen Iverson get steals, but they are not in the same breath with Artest or Bowen on perimeter D.

[travis2]

Ray's percentage dropped because of his injury and I in no way shape or form take anything away from what Bowen does on the floor. I can also guarantee you that if you asked any coach and or player in the NBA who plays the best perimeter defense they will not universally name Artest and Bowen. I assure you that Kobe will be in there - Iverson will be in there as will Larru Hughes, Mcgrady and a few others like T. Prince, Andre Kirileinko. There will be no universal choice - maybe Artest but I doubt it. Bowen is good at what he does and he is effective but people won't pick him because they will be able to rest on defense. He doesnt make people work on defense so they save all thier energy for offense.

????

Non sequitur...

[Ishta]

Hell, this is real weird..I'm thinking closet laker fan maybe? Bruce can shut damn near anybody down.He should have won DPOY last season, and this guy is saying he's overated????Give ME a fucking break

[sprrs]

I can also guarantee you that if you asked any coach and or player in the NBA who plays the best perimeter defense they will not universally name Artest and Bowen.

And he came in second in DPOY because???

And yes Bowen is more of an offensive liability than say, Allen, but that's not what we're talking about. You're arguin that Manu is a better perimiter defender than Bowen, which isn't true. None of those other guys you named up there, with the exception or Artest, are better defenders than Bowen either. And if what you say about opposing players not working as hard on defense as on offense, then you're just praising Bowen even more because he still manages to stop them.

[implacable44]

Did you even watch the Spurs playoffs?

Did you see Bowen shut down Carmelo, Marion, Rip and then Chauncey when called upon?

Kobe used to be considered a good defender.

Larry Hughes and Allen Iverson get steals, but they are not in the same breath with Artest or Bowen on perimeter D.

Kobe can lock down ( no pun intended) anyone he wants to anytime.
Carmelo shuts himself down - look at his numbers - terrible shot selection - terrible choices period. Bruce did not shut down Chancey Billups - did you watch the playoffs ?

When did Shawn Marion or any of these guys become offensive juggernauts that you would write home about because you shut them down ?

[samikeyp]

Bruce did not shut down Chancey Billups - did you watch the playoffs ?

He did when he was on him. He wasn't always guarding Chauncey. When he wasn't Chauncey went off....when he was, CB was just off.

[Kori Ellis]

Bruce did not shut down Chancey Billups - did you watch the playoffs ?

Umm.. you apparently didn't. Bruce was switched onto Chauncey late in games (Parker guarded him the rest of the game while Bowen guarded Rip.) Bowen shut down Chauncey cold when he guarded him.

Marion averaged over 22 points a game in the first two playoff series --as much as players like Tim and Manu. Against Bowen he averaged 7.8 points a game.

So far you gave these excuses:

1. Ray was injured.
2. Carmelo shut himself down.
3. Bowen didn't shut down Chauncey.

So what's Marion's excuse?

[implacable44]

Chauncey busted him up in the 4th quarter -

Non sequitur ? It doesnt follow to you that Bowen expends all of his energy on defense where somebody like Artest, Kobe, Mcgrady expend their energy on both ends ? Bruce is "self-check" you don't have to guard him.

You find me some poll of NBA Players somewhere that say Bruce is their toughest match up - let me see that link - or that proof. I know he can play defesne and he does it well ( a little dirty sometimes) but he does it well and he gets in a lot of folks head - vince carter - ray allen etc.. but the best defensive player in the game - no - I still would take Manu's defense over Bowens for perimeter players.

[Kori Ellis]

Chauncey busted him up in the 4th quarter -

Name the game, plays and times.

You provide the proof.

[ObiwanGinobili]

Agree or disagree with the article but don't take it so personally.

ok.

so let me state right now that I disagree with about 30% of that article.
and I almost vomited at he thought of getting rid of Bowen in favor of ray i'm a big pussy allen.
yeah. I kinda verped.

[implacable44]

Are you saying Ray wasn't injured?
are you saying Carmelo is a great offensive player ?

Let's take a better example - in 2003 when the Lakers beat the Spurs - how did Bowen do against Kobe ? Kobe lit him up. - repeatedly and I hate the Lakers because there are two teams I like - Spurs and Celtics (of the 80's mind you) and to be a fan of either team you must hate the Lakers.

[samikeyp]

You find me some poll of NBA Players somewhere that say Bruce is their toughest match up -

show me one where he is not.


the best defensive player in the game - no

then why is he all defense and why has he finished 2nd in the DPOY for two straight years.

[Solid D]

This is the weirdest thread. Why are you all attacking the guy for posting this? And then why is he responding so hostile?

Agree or disagree with the article but don't take it so personally.

This thread started out entitled "preview" by a first-time poster in Spurstalk (post #1) with no link or listing of the source of the link. It appeared to be a Q & A between two people (good people, no doubt, but unremarkable) about the Spurs.

A request for link and credence was not out of line and the author clarified and re-titled it so that it's intent would be clearer.

[samikeyp]

and to be a fan of either team you must hate the Lakers.
or just not give a crap about them. :)

[Kori Ellis]

Let's take a better example - in 2003 when the Lakers beat the Spurs - how did Bowen do against Kobe ? Kobe lit him up. - repeatedly and I hate the Lakers because there are two teams I like - Spurs and Celtics (of the 80's mind you) and to be a fan of either team you must hate the Lakers.

Are you talking about these 2003 playoffs ...


On Monday, Bowen forced Bryant to sweat through 38 shots to get his 37 points. On Wednesday, he decided to outshoot him as well.

On the Spurs' third possession of the night, Bowen buried a 3-pointer from above the key. The next time down the floor, he spotted up in the corner, his most comfortable location, and hit another. By halftime, he had five 3-pointers (another franchise playoff record) and 17 points.

Bowen also blocked three shots by Bryant, who needed 24 shots for his 27 points. Bowen finished with 27 points and seven 3-pointers.

[Ishta]

or just not give a crap about them. :)
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[travis2]

Non sequitur ? It doesnt follow to you that Bowen expends all of his energy on defense where somebody like Artest, Kobe, Mcgrady expend their energy on both ends ? Bruce is "self-check" you don't have to guard him.



The question is who is the better perimeter defender, Bruce or Manu. To derive the answer to that question, one normally would discuss defense...not offense.

The fact that Bruce may or may not be an offensive threat has no bearing on whether or not he is a better perimeter defender.

Non sequitur fallacy stands...

[Horry For 3!]

Do you not know anything about basketball? Defense wins games. Bowen is one of the best defenders in the game. He can also makes some big 3s when needed. I remember in game 7, Bowen blocked Billups' shot which pretty much clinched the Championship for the Spurs. Do not doubt Bowen, he is an execellent player and teammate.

[implacable44]

non sequitur doesn't stand because you can't seperate the two - this isn't football where you have an offensive team and a defensive team - it is basketball free flowing and you have to play both ends.

I actually mean any year the Lakers played the Spurs and Kobe was the Spur killer lighting Bruce Bowen up. You can't point to his percentage because Kobe never shoots a good percentage - never has since his career began in the NBA. - he isn't a shooter - he is a scorer and a terrible person.

[Horry For 3!]

non sequitur doesn't stand because you can't seperate the two - this isn't football where you have an offensive team and a defensive team - it is basketball free flowing and you have to play both ends.

I actually mean any year the Lakers played the Spurs and Kobe was the Spur killer lighting Bruce Bowen up. You can't point to his percentage because Kobe never shoots a good percentage - never has since his career began in the NBA. - he isn't a shooter - he is a scorer and a terrible person.
Bowen shuts down anyone, not just only Kobe.

[implacable44]

nobody is talking about defense winning games - this has expanded into like 20 arguements and opinions - back to basics manu and bowen - I think Manu is a better defender. - my opinion. I recognize Bruce Bowen plays hard defense and does his job and I appreciate it - but as this season goes I will make sure and continue this conversation as we see how he matches up with players throughout the season vs. how manu does.

all of this is opinion anyway - no fact to the matter.

Horry for 3 - didnt you see the beginning of this thread - don't question me.

[implacable44]

Bowen doesn't shut down anyone. I remember the last year the LAkers knocked the Spurs out and who was guarding Kobe at the end of the game ? Devin Brown - -not Bowen - but Devin Brown. Terrible decision by Pop - should have put Manu on him.

[GoSpurs21]

here is your link punk : http://slamonline.com/links/10032005/index1.html

dont question me - and if you don't think that ray allen and jerome james would be an upgrade to this roster you are as dumb as you appear.

It is funny you can call him ovary but if he was a Spur and Bowen was a Sonic you would be calling Bowen dirty - I guess you hate that Finley is here too - maybe he should be Uterus or fallopian tube because he complained more than Ray Allen ever did.talk about someone who has no clue to the Spurs success

this article was the worst myopic drivel I ever started reading, but I should have known it was crap coming from SLAM magazine

this hack doesnt represent SA or Spurs fans. dallas must have truly warped his preseption of what SA is all about.

[smeagol]

I still would take Manu's defense over Bowens for perimeter players.
Even us Members of the Church of Manu :lmao @ your statement.

[travis2]

non sequitur doesn't stand because you can't seperate the two - this isn't football where you have an offensive team and a defensive team - it is basketball free flowing and you have to play both ends.


Plenty of people have no trouble figuring out the difference...

[sprrs]

non sequitur doesn't stand because you can't seperate the two - this isn't football where you have an offensive team and a defensive team - it is basketball free flowing and you have to play both ends.

I actually mean any year the Lakers played the Spurs and Kobe was the Spur killer lighting Bruce Bowen up. You can't point to his percentage because Kobe never shoots a good percentage - never has since his career began in the NBA. - he isn't a shooter - he is a scorer and a terrible person.

Yes it does stand. there is a difference between defense and offense. When being awarded DPOY they don't take into account offensive production. And you keep on naming Kobe. Kobe Kobe Kobe. He's the only player that you say can stand up to Bowen, what about other players, or is no one else capable of handling Bowen?

You sir are either SERIOUSLY uninformed or a troll. At this point I wouldn't be suprised if you were both.

[Horry For 3!]

talk about someone who has no clue to the Spurs success

this article was the worst myopic drivel I ever started reading, but I should have known it was crap coming from SLAM magazine

this hack doesnt represent SA or Spurs fans. dallas must have truly warped his preseption of what SA is all about.
He seems more like an Sonics fan. Jerome James & Ray Allen? Jerome James is pathetic, Rasho > Jerome. Ray Allen is a whining pussy player. Manu > Ray

[ObiwanGinobili]

WHY IS THIS YOUR FAVORITE TEAM?: They play hard defense on the perimeter and in the paint and they have the best ball movement in the NBA. They play the way they act -- it is an attitude and a mindset down in San Antone and it is reflected throughout the organization.

you realize we'd lose a huge % of just that if we got rid of Bowen right?? He IS our perimater offense. Not to mention how often that ball travels thru his hands when we do crazy stuff liek pass 30 times in 8 secounds......

manu is a better defender becasue he's better at offense??? that argument does not hold water with me. Its not realted.

[implacable44]

look at you using $5.00 words to get your point accross - did mommy teach you those today ?

Dallas ? how could they warm my "preseption" (assume you mean perception - which i dont have because I grew up there and lived there for 20+ years so I have a knowledge) Dallas plays good basketball just like San Antonio does.

please enlighten me on Spurs success

[ObiwanGinobili]

He seems more like an Sonics fan. Jerome James & Ray Allen? Jerome James is pathetic, Rasho > Jerome. Ray Allen is a whining pussy player. Manu > Ray


:lmao ..thats saying ALOT 'casue aparently we are tryign to unload him.... :lmao

[travis2]

Oooooooh...implying I still live at home with my mother. Nice. Does that mean you can't refute my statement?

[Ishta]

wow..this things getting HOT.Come on Monday!

[implacable44]

you talking about rasho - dude will be lucky to get 10 minutes a game this year.

[Kori Ellis]

this article was the worst myopic drivel I ever started reading, but I should have known it was crap coming from SLAM magazine

You do realize that the "article" is just a fan writing in and the only part written by anyone at Slam is this part ...


Thanks, Mark. Now for my quick take...
It was interesting to read you mention how Rasho doesn't really fit in. When I talked with RC Buford last season, the Spurs had just acquired Nazr, and he was saying how when they signed Rasho, it was between Rasho and Michael Olowokandi. They knew they needed a center, and they had enough money to sign either one and basically had to choose. They picked Rasho because he was a better at-the-rim defender. The whole Spurs philosophy is to funnel everyone baseline and then have TD and Rasho meet them at the rim. That's really all they want Rasho to do -- defend the rim. if he can score, great. Why bring this up? Because I'm curious about Van Exel's defense, too. He's never been a particularly amazing defender, but now he's going to be expected to shut down a particular area of the floor -- stopping guards from driving the center of the lane. If one guy screws up their assignment, it messes everything up for the Spurs, which is why despite his inconsistencies, the Spurs like Tony Parker so much -- he can stop guys from driving down the center of the paint. Still, Mark, you hit it on the head when you pointed out how even if the new guys don't work out, the Spurs should be fine. Pop is the best in the biz, and unless injuries hit, I'm going with the Spurs to repeat.

[TOP-CHERRY]

look at you using $5.00 words to get your point accross - did mommy teach you those today ?

Look at you using childish, insulting remarks in an argument. Very convincing, really.

Pathetic.

[implacable44]

I was just impressed by the use of the words is all.

[sprrs]

you talking about rasho - dude will be lucky to get 10 minutes a game this year.

And yet he's still more reliable than Jerome James

[implacable44]

I stand by my thoughts about Bowen - Ray and Manu. You do realize Bowen is already going to love minutes this year to Finley -and to Bones -- lots of them ? And the Spurs won't miss a beat - Manu can guard anyone the league as well if not better than Bowen.
You do realize that Rasho will get about 10 minutes a game and if you think he wasnt on the trading block this summer I would have to say you are crazy. Nazr mohammed will get most of those minutes and I wouldn't be suprised to see a trade before the all-star deadline involving Rasho.
It is okay to be a fan and not wear silver and black colored glasses.
This weekend when I drive back into San Antonio and we go play ball down with Jerry Soto and Henry Yzaquirre or maybe we head up to Randolph to play some ball - Hopefully some of you guys play in those places so we can meet and discuss hoops and play a little.

[TOP-CHERRY]

I was just impressed by the use of the words is all.
Nitpicking at misspelled words. Very impressive.

[travis2]

This weekend when I drive back into San Antonio and we go play ball down with Jerry Soto and Henry Yzaquirre or maybe we head up to Randolph to play some ball - Hopefully some of you guys play in those places so we can meet and discuss hoops and play a little.

Talk to Kori. She sets up or knows about periodic basketball GTGs. If there's one on, there will usually be a thread about it.

[Kori Ellis]

You do realize Bowen is already going to love minutes this year to Finley -and to Bones -- lots of them ?

Finley will get Devin and Barry's minutes from last season. Manu and Bowen's minutes will stay relatively steady. Barry will get just spot minutes unless he really steps up his game.

[ChumpDumper]

Bowen doesn't shut down anyone.I call shenanigans.

[implacable44]

finley will get devin and barrys minutes? Where are Barry's minutes going to go then ? Finley and Barry will both get minutes and they wont take them away from Manu they will come from Bowen and maybe Parker if Pop lets Bones run some point.

[Marcus Bryant]

Allen's a badass when his vagina isn't hurting but he'd be pretty much a marginal improvement for the Spurs over Finley. All things considered, I'd rather go with Bowen + Finley than Ray Ray. Losing Bowen would cost the defense its soul.

[Kori Ellis]

finley will get devin and barrys minutes? Where are Barry's minutes going to go then ? Finley and Barry will both get minutes and they wont take them away from Manu they will come from Bowen and maybe Parker if Pop lets Bones run some point.


Barry will get just spot minutes unless he really steps up his game.

The Spurs usually run (especially late in the season) a 3-man rotation at the swing spots with the fourth guy getting spot minutes. The rotation will be Bowen-Manu-Finley and Barry getting spot minutes unless there's injuries or someone's game declines rapidly or exceeds expectations.

Pop said on Media Day that he's going to manage Manu's minutes very closely. So probably in the beginning of the season, he may see a little less than average minutes and Finley/Barry might get a little extra.

[nkdlunch]

Nothing sadder than an actual Spurs fan who doesn't appreciate what Bruce Bowen has done for our team.

BINGO!!!!


and about the whinning. EVERYBODY in the league not named Rasho Nesterovic complains about calls :rolleyes

[Solid D]

Bowen doesn't shut down anyone.

I call shenanigans.

:lol

Game 1 of NBA Western Conf. Finals - Bruce Bowen shuts down Shawn Marion.
http://www.nba.com/games/20050522/SASPHO/boxscore.html

Bowen basically turned Marion into a rebounder because he became a non-open, non-factor offensively.

Games 2, 3, 4 and 5 weren't much better for Marion averaging 7.8 ppg in 40.2 min./game for the series. He averaged over 23 ppg in the prior 6-game series vs. Dallas. Both the Dallas series and SA series were uptempo, high-scoring affairs.

[Man In Black]

jerome james would be an upgrade

The guy is suckmywokandi Supersized but comes with a garbage bag to catch his lazy limited talent game for the season.

As for Ray Allen, a talented player for sure, but in a game where balance is king, his jumper would be relegated to situational shots just like Bruce, just like Brent, and just like Fin. If you think he should take away shots from Tim & Manu, well...I disagree.


I work up in Dallas a lot and the sports guys up in Dallas say that Tim, Manu, Tony and Bowen all whine and cry about everything.

Could it be that they're tired of watching the team they back get their ass kicked on a regular basis? That was Dirk that I saw go postal on his own teammate for letting Nash get off an uncontested 3 eh. Sportswriters need to write about something. Maybe that's why they say the same shit here in California except here, they roast the hell out of Kobe because it sells papers.


Manu plays honest on ball defense and still gets in the passing lanes - helps and he will give it to you on the offensive end. I will take his defense over Bowens any day.
Look, for the type of in-your-face D that Bruce plays it's a necessity to counter the tricks that the premier scorer in the L try to get away with to get that shot off. They push and clear and use physical, sometimes illegal, to get that space.

You can't ask Manu to play that type of D for as long and as intense as Bruce does and still have the same effort on the O side. That's why Bowen's role is so pivotal.
This is still a contact sport and for every whine about an O player not getting space for his shot, there is a D player in his jock pushing the edges between legal and illegal contact. The ref makes the call. That is how it's done. You can see the same type of spirited D-they love playing it this hard- in the forms of Alvin Robertson, Sidney Moncreif, Dennis Rodman, Bill Russell...et al. Players who had reps for their tenacity on the D side of the ball.
It ain't pretty but as long as there is a need for D in this game, there will always be players like Bruce playing it.


Ray's percentage dropped because of his injury and I in no way shape or form take anything away from what Bowen does on the floor.

Okay-now you've irked me.

Let's see, well use Ray's last 2 games against Bruce before the playoffs to see how well he shoots against Bruce. I don't know how you can't see the beauty of Bruce holding players to around 1 point per shot. You can say Ray averages 24 per but if it takes him 24 shots to get it, that ain't very effective:

Taking the "injury" playoff series out of the equation, let's go with Ray's previous 2 games against the Spurs.
On 12-8-04 At Seattle
Allen goes 9-19 and scores 29
On 3-30-05 At SBC
Allen goes 6-17 and score 14
Total those up:
Ray went 15-36 scored 43
43/36 = 1.19 per shot

Against the rest of the L?
Ray shoots for the season:
1867 points/ 1494 total shots = 1.25

That 1.19 is Bruce is holding him down.


For his entire playoffs:
Ray went 1.35

But against the Spurs? 129 points / 108 shot = 1.19 looks
like Bruce kept him to where he was...Hurt or not hurt, the result stays the same.



I can also guarantee you that if you asked any coach and or player in the NBA who plays the best perimeter defense they will not universally name Artest and Bowen.

Got you. I talked to Hank Egan for a few minutes and asked him who plays the best perimeter D and he said Bruce Bowen, then he added Tayshaun Prince because of his length. He said Artest was a strong positional player as well. So I asked 1 and he disagrees with your assesment.



I assure you that Kobe will be in there - Iverson will be in there as will Larry Hughes, Mcgrady and a few others like T. Prince, Andre Kirileinko.

Aside from Prince and Kirilenko, the rest of those guys are people who accumulate steals. They're great at playing the passing lanes but when it comes down to locking it down? They don't. Why because they need to expend more energy on the O. That's just the way it is. They have their roles,Bruce has his.



There will be no universal choice - maybe Artest but I doubt it. Bowen is good at what he does and he is effective but people won't pick him because they will be able to rest on defense. He doesnt make people work on defense so they save all their energy for offense.

That's why there is an ALL-NBA D team. The votes are cast wide and varied and for the last 4 years, the guy has been ALL-NBA D. Kobe's lack of D got him booted after 5 straight selections, Have you seen the la"K"ers record last season when they give up 100 points to an opponent? It sucked.. Welcome to not having an interior presence.

As for Kobe being able to lock up anybody anytime?
http://tinyurl.com/cy539
At the conclusion of that play, Phil called a timeout and berated the hell out of Kobe for his inability to lock Manu down. And thinking back to last season, outside of Michael Redd, the rest of the SG's he faced weren't locked down at all. Is it fair that he has to do that and run the offense too? Life's not fair, but hey he wanted his own team. He ain't all that and last season, he wasn't even ALL-NBA.

But hey whatever, just because you got to rep in mag YOUR OPINION. If Lang would've chosen me, I would've called it straight but I RECOGNIZE that there are DEFINED ROLES for EVERY player. Bruce's offensive game is limited to 2 reasons, Pop and then the fact that there are better options on the team. It's not like he can't score, it's more like as a 4.5 option, does he really need to shoot more? Only when that 3 is spot-on. Other than that, that defense is all Pop asks for, he asks the same of Rasho but, well...that's another long post.

[genghisrex]

I wasn't too sold on R.C. Buford...
Hi, you must be new to Spurs fandom. Will you be needing a kiddie seat on the bandwagon? :baby

[implacable44]

I am not new to anything as I have followed the Spurs since the 80's and played with or against most of them.

As for Man in Black - Jerome James is lazy and now that he got paid he has the potential to do an Issac Austin imitation - but he was killing the Spurs and can he really be worse than Rasho ? Seriously - and Isn't Ray an upgrade?

The Mavs - I don't know that they get their ase kicked - I mean 3 years back the Spurs were a Steve Kerr away from getting ousted by those Mavs and if Cuban had any patience to let his team gel and get some chemistry they would have been better off. 50+ games does not transalte to getting your ase kicked.

Bruce does play solid D and he is a pest - in your shirt defense but my opinion is my opinion and I will take Manu over Bowen and Bring Ray Allen on board. I would do it in a minute. Bowen is 34 years old remember and anybody who has that tall guy from the Virgin Islands behind them to back them up - doesn't have to produce anything on offense - well they can adfford to be aggressive on the jumpshot because they always - always have help with the drive on this roster. Yeah you can tell Bowen likes to play D because that is how he gets paid. that is his niche that sets him apart from other players. - as far as your list - alvin robertson and sidney moncrief gave it to you on the other end of the court too and I played against Alvin and his defense wasn't that great - saw my boy dwight govan light him up in city league for 40. Bruce does his job well on this team - but it is easier to play D on this team than most because of the structure and TIm - Bruce has been on 6 teams - which included being waived and signed by the heat numerous times - as well as the Celtics and traded to the bulls as a throw in and then waived. he was all D 1st team once - last year. - give me manu.

Dont birng statistics reflecting bruce against ray and then against the rest of the L - I am sure I could pull statistice for ray against a certain team that reflect he shoots worse against them - statistics are easily manipulated especially in the sense that you used them -- break them down by each team - not by the L

You found one out of 100's and you want to call it a day - money i asked andre miller and he said Billups. - and ask hank that in front of lebron and see what he says - besides isnt this his first year ?

Have you seen Kobes roster?> hell I hate Kobe but he is the best guard in the L and lets take a look at those statistics you like and all nba teams at the end of this year.

you put in one play of Manu rocking Kobe off the dribble around a pick? First off - I like Manu and he can go by anyone - bruce - kobe - whomever -- like I said - Kobe has the ability to lock anyone down.

Bruce cannot score - you think bruce has it in his game to take people off the dribble and create his own shot ? no and pop isn;t asking hardly anything of Rasho because Rasho can't seem to give it. Hence the Mohammed trade and I bet before the all-star break the spurs will make another move.

[FromWayDowntown]

As for Man in Black - Jerome James is lazy and now that he got paid he has the potential to do an Issac Austin imitation - but he was killing the Spurs and can he really be worse than Rasho ? Seriously - and Isn't Ray an upgrade?

Are you truly this dense? I mean really? Do you just sit and play PlayStation or watch SportsCenter to reach opinions about the quality of NBA talent?

James was "destroying" the Spurs not because of anything he was doing, but because the Spurs struggled for one night to defend the pick and roll and James got 7 dunks. That had very little to do with Jerome James and everything to do with the Spurs constant struggles with pick and roll defense. It's not as if James was beating double teams or taking guys in the post. At that, James only had 3 rebounds in that game. Truly an amazing performance: 7 uncontested dunks and 3 rebounds. I'm convinced.

Actually, I'm not. So I went back to the numbers for that series -- yes, not just one, but all 6 games of it. Here are Jerome James' numbers for the entire series on a game-by-game basis:

Game 1: 2-8 FG; 4 pts; 2 reb.
Game 2: 4-9 FG; 8 pts; 7 reb.
Game 3: 7-7 FG; 15 pts; 3 reb. (this makes him a superstar, I guess)
Game 4: 0-6 FG; 4 pts; 6 reb. (so much for superstardom)
Game 5: 4-10 FG; 10 pts; 2 reb.
Game 6: 4-9 FG; 10 pts; 8 reb.

TOTAL: 21-49 FG (.429); 8.5 ppg; 4.7 rpg.

Now who wouldn't want a 7 footer who can shoot almost 43% from the floor and get almost 5 rebounds per game? And how on Earth could Rasho Nesterovic ever match that kind of output? I mean, has he ever played 6 games and accumulated such remarkable numbers? Ever?

Well, the answer to that question is, um-hum.

Here are Rasho's numbers from a stretch of 6 consecutive games in 2003-04 (which included 4 games against 2004 playoff teams), just one short season ago:

vs. DEN: 10-18 FG; 20 pts; 12 reb; 0 ast; 2 blk
vs. MEM: 9-12 FG; 18 pts; 10 reb; 1 ast; 5 blk
vs. SEA: 6-15 FG; 12 pts; 12 reb; 1 ast; 2 blk
vs. DAL: 6-12 FG; 13 pts; 15 reb; 5 ast; 7 blk
vs. PNX: 11-14 FG; 22 pts; 13 reb; 5 ast; 1 blk
vs. MEM: 6-13 FG; 13 pts; 13 reb.; 1 ast; 6 blk

TOTAL: 48-84 FG (.571); 16.3 ppg; 12.5 rpg; 2.2 apg; 3.8 bpg

I'll agree that Rasho won't always put up those kinds of numbers; hell, I'll agree that Rasho might never put up those kinds of numbers again. But, the fact is that he has done that in the NBA, and done it recently.

Did Rasho have a bad season in 2004-05? Absolutely.

Does it mean that one good game by Jerome James is somehow proof that James is better than Rasho? Absolutely not.

You'd have to be really unconcerned with what really matters to the Spurs style of basketball to not see that.

[5ToolMan]

I agree with you on Bowen - that is what I said - but the main thing Ray was whining about was the way he jumped at his feet when he shot jumpers.

Ray was trying to gain an advantage by getting the Zebras to keep a closer eye on Bowen. In watching the way the games were called, it worked for a while. But as the series moved on, it became clear, it was the Sonics interior who were the thugs. Bruce was allowed more room to play tough defense, and Ray wilted like a pansey in the heat of crunch time. :elephant

[5ToolMan]

Ray's percentage dropped because of his injury and I in no way shape or form take anything away from what Bowen does on the floor. I can also guarantee you that if you asked any coach and or player in the NBA who plays the best perimeter defense they will not universally name Artest and Bowen. I assure you that Kobe will be in there - Iverson will be in there as will Larru Hughes, Mcgrady and a few others like T. Prince, Andre Kirileinko. There will be no universal choice - maybe Artest but I doubt it. Bowen is good at what he does and he is effective but people won't pick him because they will be able to rest on defense. He doesnt make people work on defense so they save all thier energy for offense.

No wonder you take up for Ray's crying. To claim his "injury" caused his drop in production more than Bruce and company, is a laugh. As they say, birds of a feather ....

In game one, Ray did have a very minor tweak to his ankle. But his sitting like a little girl was more so because the Spurs were manhandling the Sonics, than some dilibating injury that should have kept him off the floor.

Ray was able to cut at will on his ankle for the rest of the series, This fact demonstrates his "injury" was not the cause of a drop in production. He was "Bowened" plain and simple. :hat

[ChumpDumper]

Ray let Bruce get completely in his head before the series even started. Look back at all the contact Ray tried to initiate and all the exaggerated flopping about from the slightest contact in a rather vain attempt to get the refs to take Bruce out of the game (considering the punishment doled out by the Sonics' big men, the impotence of his gesticulations were understandable). Ray probably took himself out of the game as much as Bruce's D did, but that was because of Bruce too.

[ploto]

The guy's info on 2 summers ago isn't quite accurately portrayed. The Spurs never even talked to Olowakandi and Pop rented a car and drove across 3 Republics of the former Yugoslavia to meet with Rasho as soon as possible. MAybe RC wasn't so hot on him, but Pop wanted him here alot. Rasho was at the top of Pop's list of FA's that summer.

[Raikonen]

Dude... Seriously... :lol I suggest you should take your mouth off of Manu's cock right now... While I agree that Manu's defense is underrated, Bowen at 35 still >> Manu

I'm surprised you haven't realized that 100% of the posters here disagree with your takes. Does that say anything to you?



And if you somehow think that you are Galileo Galilei... That it's you trying to convince the world that you are right... Well.... Theres one major difference between the both of you.... Galileo wasn't an idiot.

[Solid D]

Bruce Bowen was a great defender prior to coming to the Spurs system.

His last season with Miami, he average 32 mpg and he was the only wing from the East to make the NBA All-Defensive Team that season. In fact, no true wings were on the 1st team. Christie and Bowen were the only ones and they were both on the 2nd team.

http://www.dfw.net/~patricia/awards01.html#all-defensive

2000-01 NBA All-Defensive Team
(29 coaches select first and second teams by position - maximum 56 points)

First Team
Pos Player Points (first place votes)
G Jason Kidd (Pho) ........ 39 (14)
G Gary Payton (Sea) ....... 38 (17)
F Tim Duncan (SA) ......... 40 (19)
F Kevin Garnett (Min) ..... 24 (9)
C Dikembe Mutombo (Phi) ... 43 (19)

Second Team
Pos Player Points (first place votes)
G Kobe Bryant (LAL) ....... 26 (9)
G Doug Christie (Sac) ..... 20 (6)
F Bruce Bowen (Mia) ....... 18 (7)
F P.J. Brown (Cha) ........ 13 (4)
C Shaquille O'Neal (LAL) .. 17 (5)

[MI21]

You know you are wrong regarding something to do with Manu's game when the "Church of Manu" don't agree with you. Also, it's pretty obvious that the guy defending the article, is the guy that wrote the actual article, so he is coming on here and defending it.

How cool of him.

[ambchang]

here is your link punk : http://slamonline.com/links/10032005/index1.html

dont question me - and if you don't think that ray allen and jerome james would be an upgrade to this roster you are as dumb as you appear.

It is funny you can call him ovary but if he was a Spur and Bowen was a Sonic you would be calling Bowen dirty - I guess you hate that Finley is here too - maybe he should be Uterus or fallopian tube because he complained more than Ray Allen ever did.

Very objective arguments. Wait, what is this? What is there to back up your statements? How about nothing?
The Spurs are based on defense, Ray Allen can't even compare to Bowen on defense. Ray Allen is better than Bowen on offense, and by a LOT, but the Spurs don't need any more offense, Duncan, Ginobili and Parker have that covered already.
Ray Allen requires screens to set him free, and he requires to ball to be effective. The Spurs don't run that sort of offense. So how would the Spurs adding Allen improve them? Care to back up your statements, MR. basketball genius?
I am not even going to address Jerome James, it's simply laughable.

[samikeyp]

dont question me

Dude....you are in the wrong place for that.

[Solid D]

It looks like I picked the wrong week to give up reading lame takes.

http://www.classicmovies.org/graphics/lloydbridges.jpg

[implacable44]

childish - childish - childish - bowen is 35. - allen does not need any screens to get open - are you an idiot ? dude can and does create his own shots at will and the fact that a select group of people disagree with me doesn't affect me at all. that is the beauty of an opinion - especially one based on basketball talents of individual players - purely hyupothetical = besides - how can i respect your opinion when i would be busting your ase all day if we were to ever play ball ?

[Man In Black]

The article ain't that bad but after reading your responses here well...

YOU ARE 1 DENSE DUDE.

It's called fitting a role. It's a team game but your highlighting of individuals makes you the perfect candidate to push away the team aspect. SLAM, ESPN, DIME all of that meant to praise the individual when we all know that TEAM HOOPS wins it more so than individual stars. Bruce plays a role to the letter as defined by Pop.


as far as your list - alvin robertson and sidney moncrief gave it to you on the other end of the court too and I played against Alvin and his defense wasn't that great - saw my boy dwight govan light him up in city league for 40.


The big question is WHEN? And if your boy Dwight was such the man, then why is it do I not see his name in the NBA register?

I once took Swen Nater to the hole once but since he was less mobile than Jabba the Hut, at his later age, that wasn't very impressive to me. You said take any coach. I gave you the one that I had access to. You can't comprehend the word BALANCE. Tell me genius, if you bring "Shuttlesworth" in, how many shots is he going to get? Seriously, how many? Everywhere he has been he has gotten the bulk of the work.

Does he deserve more shots than Manu? How about Tim? I know you're going to turn TP into a pass-first PG right? BULLSHIT. You want to talk hoops. Bring it.

Just because you luckily got chosen to rep the Spurs doesn't mean you rep them well. It just means that you got luckily chosen.

Truth? Bruce is 1 hell-of-a-defender...Check. Rasho doesn't score a lot...Check. Jerome James is literally garbage and now he has fleeced James Dolan of more cash than he should be entitled to. He sucks, just like Suckmywokandi. Same type of game, same waste of cash.

[implacable44]

Actually I could care less about the individual but if you don't think Ray could fit in with the Spurs then I would question your concept. You know a lot of the Spurd go play ball during the summer on the west side at a local high school - monty williams will show up too - some other guys and Tim has even been in there and I promise you he would love to play alongside Ray Alllen. Ray can get his own shot and get shots for TIm freeing up the middle because he would be the best deep threat the Spurs have ever had. - yes he shoots better than Kerr.

Bruce does play a role to the T and he is also 35 years old. I don't know many 35 year old guys that are able to stay with the younger guys - not even Jordan could do it.

You telling me that you don't have friends who can play that aren't in the L for one reason or another ? San Antonio is full of players who could play that didn't make it - Ski Jones was a bad man but he didnt make it to the L - Artie Griffin can play - I have seen him light up just about every one on the Spurs whenever he went to camp -- he used to light up del negro and devin brown but he didnt make it either -and I have played with cats that are in the league who I dont think are all that great - played with andre at utah - and he is not that good - played with b-russ, jamie watson, monty williams, britten johnsen, david benoit, hornacek, danny ainge, bunch of people who played in the league who were just not overly impressive. You play ball and you don't know any body like that ? You havent ever played with people in the NBA and thought - that dude isnt that great ?

How many shots does Shuttlesworth need? would I give him more shots than Manu ? - yes I would - and I would give him more shots than anybody but Tim - not that Tim would care either way --as long as they were winning - which they would be -= and I dont care what Tony Parker thought about it - he should be a pass first point guard with that screwball that he considers a jump shot =- dude is quick as hell but that J is broke.

Bruce has been a dang good defender - but I am telling you he is 35 and this season we will see how he does and how many minutes he gets with more productive people on that sideline to start the season -- finley - bones - etc.

you want to talk hoops or play them - - bring it.

[xcoriate]

word up to that G-unit.

What the fuck is with talking a like a dick?

Let me take a quick moment to point out some flaws....

Anyway whats with this hypothetical question anyway? Rasho and Bruce for Ray Allen and Jerome James? I got another proposal Beno for LeBron talk about pointless.

Jerome James is a knick.

Rasho >>> James

Bruce is a better fit for our system than Ray Ray. He is a cornerstone of the defence.

Bruce is a virtually universal choice amongst coaches as one of the top perimeter defenders, along with psycho boy out in Indiana.

Manu is better than Bruce, but on D Bruce owns Manu.

Bruce had a career year least season, thats right he is peaking and while I agree that a replacement needs to be found we are ok for the time being it would seem.

I don't care who you've played against, but I hope you enjoyed dropping all those names to make yourself feel good. I can assure you we're really impressed ;)

[coopdogg3]

If being able to take people to the hole was a good indication of a GM's skills then Isiah Thomas would be the best GM in the NBA, instead of being the worst. I could care less who played and who and did what, the point is the article was decent, but a lot of posters disagreed with part of it. Not a big deal, it happens a lot. And while a few players might occasionally put up a good game on Bruce, he mostly shuts people down. Players who average a lot of points on Bruce (Kobe, Allen) usually have a very low field goal % to go with that 20+ ppg.

coopdogg3

[FromWayDowntown]

I think the point here is that since implacable has occasionally played ball with these guys, we should all bow down to his expertise and not question any of his conclusions. I mean, what on Earth could any of the rest of us know, since unlike implacable we can't drop ambiguous references to having played hoops with NBA players and assert (without any corroboration) what those guys think. (oh, and by the way, implacable, the next time you hoop it up with Ski, you might ask him about those games he played for the T'Wolves, buddy.)

I mean, what do stats and understandings of philosophy have anything to do with talent evaluation when you can vaguely refer to some pickup games that you played and assert dominion over all who post after you?

[ambchang]

childish - childish - childish - bowen is 35. - allen does not need any screens to get open - are you an idiot ? dude can and does create his own shots at will and the fact that a select group of people disagree with me doesn't affect me at all. that is the beauty of an opinion - especially one based on basketball talents of individual players - purely hyupothetical = besides - how can i respect your opinion when i would be busting your ase all day if we were to ever play ball ?

http://www.nba.com/step_up/seattle_double_trouble.html
Yeah, just read this, watch the video, and tell me if Ray Allen needs any screens.
And what does Bowen being 35 have to do with him playing great defense? It's not even a related topic.
And as for the on the court comment ... this is probably the most immature thing I have heard, even if it was a face-to-face comment. Let's see, I am a great basketball mind because I play great basketball. Have you heard of Elgin Baylor? How long did Magic last as a coach? What about Isiah Thomas? He is doing a bang up job in NY, isn't he (Yes according to you, because he landed superstar Jerome James for $30 mil, :lol :lol :lol ). Second, this is over the Internet, buddy guess what? I busted Kobe Bryant and Micheal Jordan's ass playing one of two, beating both of them 15-2, and then proceeded to beat the whole Sonics team playing them 1 on 12. Just typing it does make it a reality. I was also the president of United States and Uganda at the same time for 13 years in a row while I lead the world to eternal peace and stunted a Martian attack. :elephant :elephant :elephant . Man, you crack me up.

[ambchang]

Actually I could care less about the individual but if you don't think Ray could fit in with the Spurs then I would question your concept. You know a lot of the Spurd go play ball during the summer on the west side at a local high school - monty williams will show up too - some other guys and Tim has even been in there and I promise you he would love to play alongside Ray Alllen. Ray can get his own shot and get shots for TIm freeing up the middle because he would be the best deep threat the Spurs have ever had. - yes he shoots better than Kerr.


You promise me/us that blah blah blah would love playing with Allen? What about Bruce? I don't need a promise, because I already KNOW that everybody loves playing with him, and has won two rings with him being the main defensive force.
I would love to see the offense run through Allen, how he could create his own shots, and then get shots for Tim, please, please please take the offense away from Tim, and have a guy who can be a better offensive player than Steve Kerr, an NBA superstar who managed to average 6 ppg in his career run the Spurs offense. I am just salivating at that idea. Come to think of it, I have always HATED Tim running the offense and surrounding him with shooters, then add in a drive to the hole maniac like Manu. What has come out of it other than getting a bunch of championships and the most successful team in major league sports for the last 7 years? It could be better, give the offense to Ray Allen! Who managed to lead his team to the PLAYOFFS last year.


Bruce does play a role to the T and he is also 35 years old. I don't know many 35 year old guys that are able to stay with the younger guys - not even Jordan could do it.
Of course he couldn't, because Jordan retired for the second time when he was 34. And even though he was 34, Jordan was All-D 1st team. Why talk about what Jordan did, let's talk about what Bruce did. 2001 to 2003, All-D 2nd team. 2004 to 2005, All-D 1st team. he actually got better when he aged. I am not saying that he is going to be a defensive force at age 89, but please explain to me how him being 35, or one year older than 34 (I thought I have to make it clear for you), an age where he just finished 2nd in DPoY, and with no major injuries (knock on wood), that he would suddenly not be able to keep up with his man?

[Man In Black]

I realize that Bowen is 35. But having said that, as early as last year he did what Carmelo Anthony, Ray Allen, Shawn Marion & Rip Hamilton? Rendered them less effective. You saw the statistics. They scored more when playing against others. Scored less when playing against Bruce & the Spurs.



You telling me that you don't have friends who can play that aren't in the L for one reason or another ? San Antonio is full of players who could play that didn't make it - Ski Jones was a bad man but he didnt make it to the L - Artie Griffin can play - I have seen him light up just about every one on the Spurs whenever he went to camp -- he used to light up del negro and devin brown but he didnt make it either -and I have played with cats that are in the league who I dont think are all that great - played with andre at utah - and he is not that good - played with b-russ, jamie watson, monty williams, britten johnsen, david benoit, hornacek, danny ainge, bunch of people who played in the league who were just not overly impressive. You play ball and you don't know any body like that ? You havent ever played with people in the NBA and thought - that dude isnt that great ?


The question is when DID YOU PLAY THESE GUYS? Look at 1 time Danny Ainge was an ALL-WAC player along with Tony Gwynn of the Padres. At 1 time he was a stone-faced killer oh about TWENTY YEARS AGO. I played against Jim Paxson and Chris Dudley out here in California and I could get a shot off on those guys but still, does that mean I'm ready for the NBA? Umm..no.

Your list of who's who:
Andre once led the L in assists; BRuss-not a bad defender,kind of Bruce real light;Britten J, David Beniot, chronic end of the bench guys-Fringe players;Hornacek could shoot the lights out and for about 5 years, was a triple-threat player who could shoot, pass, and get to the line. All we can truly say, is that while there are a bunch of guys who can play ball, and many of them don't make it to the L for one reason or another. You have to make yourself standout in some way and many of your boys did not. Not saying it's a bad thing but it is what it is.

[implacable44]

ambchang - you are irrelevant - when i say " dont question me" - i am joking -it is humor - albeit difficult to comprehend in an email - and your logic is stupid - I didnt say he was a better offensive player than steve kerr, I said he was a better shooter and anyone who watches any ball - knows ray can get his own shot off and does all the time against anyone. again ray is a guy who's game i appreciate and who i think would fit in nicely with the spurs - an opinion - go get one instead of regurgitating what everyone else thinks or what you read - see that yellow line- follow it all the way to the wizard and get your own opinion

my point was not to say I have played with so and so - or this and that guy - and ski didnt last 1 year in the L - and I know he was with the T-wolves -.
my point was to in black talking about dwight asking why he wasnt in the L - and I told him there are plenty of folks who could play ball that dont make it - folks better than people actually playing in the league/.

[samikeyp]

Ski is playing in Venezuela and was playing for Venezuela's national team of late.

link (http://www.latinbasket.com/ven/nt.asp)

[samikeyp]

Artie Griffin can play - I have seen him light up just about every one on the Spurs whenever he went to camp -- he used to light up del negro and devin brown

Del Negro left in 98 and DBrown didn't come in until 02.

[implacable44]

Ski has been in Venezuela for more than a decade playing. he used to play with my boy bryon from utah --- Ski has been MVP a few times and another kid from San Antonio i--roger favela - is playing down in Belize - on thier national team.

[FromWayDowntown]

an opinion - go get one instead of regurgitating what everyone else thinks or what you read - see that yellow line- follow it all the way to the wizard and get your own opinion

I have an opinion -- my opinion is that you have absolutely no understanding whatsoever concerning what makes the Spurs who they are. How's that?

[samikeyp]

I watched Ski in HS. I think he graduated in 89 or 90....Taft used to whack him! :)

[implacable44]

taft didnt whack ski - are you sick - nobody could hold ski back in the day - who was at taft then ? - mike grimes ? -- you went to taft -- did you know laura and wayne stewart?

[implacable44]

it is your opinion and you are more than entitled to it. --

artie has been to spurs camp numerous times - -same with Jerald Reiner.

[samikeyp]

taft didnt whack ski - are you sick - nobody could hold ski back in the day - who was at taft then ? - mike grimes ? -- you went to taft -- did you know laura and wayne stewart?

yes I was and yes I do...ok let me rephrase...Taft used to whack Marshall. Ski yes, got his numbers...I meant team victories.

Yes Artie was in camp with the Spurs but never with Del Negro and Brown because they were not in camp together. I am pretty sure that Artie was not in Spurs camp in 2002...I may be wrong and if you have proof I will gladly defer to that.

[FromWayDowntown]

I watched Ski in HS. I think he graduated in 89 or 90....Taft used to whack him! :)

I went to HS with Ski. I can assure you that his days at Marshall were the high point for Rams basketball. Jay, with Bo Outlaw and Calvin Thomas, was the biggest nemesis, IIRC. Ski was good enough by himself to get the Rams to the 1989 Regional Semi-Finals with a bunch of really average guys around him -- the best player to play with Ski back then was Chris Doyal, who ended up at Princeton. But Doyal was a freshman in Ski's senior season. Sean Laissle was a nice shooter and we had a few other players, but it pretty much began and ended with Ski.

[FromWayDowntown]

yes I was and yes I do...ok let me rephrase...Taft used to whack Marshall. Ski yes, got his numbers...I meant team victories.

I'lkl have to find proof of that, mikey. :)

I know Marshall and Jay were in the playoffs in 89 (Ski's senior season), and I thought that both teams were in the playoffs in 1988 (Ski's junior season). If Taft was beating Marshall, the Raiders weren't beating many other teams and we were beating everyone else, since we ended up no worse than 2nd in the district.

We can go on with Taft/Marshall if you'd like, though.

[samikeyp]

They were beating Marshall but it they were always tight....an 2 OT game comes to mind. Taft had a knack for beating Marshall then going out and losing to Eagle Pass! :wtf 89 or 90 was the year that they added a third team to the playoffs and Taft went in there as #3 I think in 89. Yes, Jay was tough....I played pickup ball with Outlaw and Thomas....damn they were good. :)

But no doubt Ski was awesome....I remember watching him in a Freshman game and it was incredible! I was hoping he would have stuck in the NBA.

[samikeyp]

I'lkl have to find proof of that, mikey.

if you can bro, do it. It is incredibly likely that I got all my dates wrong...the late 80's are a little fuzzy for me!! :drunk :drunk

[implacable44]

ski had a pretty decent team - Doyal was a beast - I remember when he broke a backboard in AAU ball - big white boy. -
Wayne still in San Antonio ? _ Last I heard Laura was in Alabama or something as a reporter. - that was like a year or so ago though -

Jay was nice - Bo and Calvin (over-rated) but they had a nice backcourt too - those dudes couldnt score but they played defense and passed the ball to bo and calvin all day. - I still would have taken Sidney Kimball over just about anyone but ski in 89 - sidney could play. Jay had a good squad though.

Artie was definitely in camp with Del Negro and I never said Del NEgro and Brown were in camp together?? - I said he lit Brown up - Artie works out with the Spurs every summer -- well did up until '03 or '04 I think.

[samikeyp]

Artie Griffin can play - I have seen him light up just about every one on the Spurs whenever he went to camp -- he used to light up del negro and devin brown

[implacable44]

okay ?would you like me to break it down for you and help you understand -- as I stated Artie has been in camp more than once and he works out with them every year up until a year or two ago - and at one point del negro was there and at another point devin brown was there. I never said they were in camp together - - Is this a result of that Taft education ?

[samikeyp]

hey...all you had to do is clarify. You don't have to be a dick.

[FromWayDowntown]

hey...all you had to do is clarify. You don't have to be a dick.

Are you surprised by that, though, mikey?

[Ginobili_20_gold_medalist]

Umm.. you apparently didn't. Bruce was switched onto Chauncey late in games (Parker guarded him the rest of the game while Bowen guarded Rip.) Bowen shut down Chauncey cold when he guarded him.

Marion averaged over 22 points a game in the first two playoff series --as much as players like Tim and Manu. Against Bowen he averaged 7.8 points a game.

So far you gave these excuses:

1. Ray was injured.
2. Carmelo shut himself down.
3. Bowen didn't shut down Chauncey.

So what's Marion's excuse?

Marion's offensive numbers have always been deceiving. He's a garbage player. And I don't mean he's garbage but he doesn't get his points in a traditional way. He cherry picks, runs the floor waiting for a dish from whatever good PG he happens to be playing with (Kidd, Marbury, Nash) for easy dunks and layups, gets put-backs from offensive rebounds, or occassionally hits an open jumper when the PG breaks down the defense, etc.

I don't really give Bowen a lot of credit for shutting a player like Marion down. I give the Spurs team (as a whole) credit for slowing down the type of ball Phoenix liked to do. The Spurs focused on shutting the Suns fast break down by getting back on defense and making them work in the half court. That pretty much took Marion out of the game because he wasn't getting any easy dunks and layups and also made Quentin Richardson disappear because he couldn't launch 3's in transition. Both things are what Phoenix thrives on.

Bowen had it easy because he knew Marion's ball-handling skills were shaky and the Suns weren't going to put the ball in Marion's hands for a one-on-one situation in the half court.

[samikeyp]

Are you surprised by that, though, mikey?
Well I try to give everyone who comes in new the benefit of the doubt....its what I get for being nice.

[implacable44]

hey give me your address and I will send you $5 to get a sense of humor too - what is this the sensitive board? -

I already pointed that out about Marion - who is cedric ceballos reincarnated - a garbage player who has to be set up - i Mean have you seen dudes jump shot ? yuck.

[samikeyp]

hey give me your address and I will send you $5 to get a sense of humor too - what is this the sensitive board? -

I already pointed that out about Marion - who is cedric ceballos reincarnated - a garbage player who has to be set up - i Mean have you seen dudes jump shot ? yuck

Keep your money...sounds like you can use it more than me.

One thing I will agree with you on though....Marion's J is Fugly.

[implacable44]

I dont need money man - what are you talking about ? I can spare $5 for you to get a sense of humor or maybe I could refer you to some of my fellow Judson grads that still live in San Antone to explain my sense of humor and just buy you lunch. ???

[samikeyp]

it wasn't that you need the money...you were saying that you were sending it to me for a sense of humor...I was merely replying that you need it for that purpose more than I.

[FromWayDowntown]

I already pointed that out about Marion - who is cedric ceballos reincarnated - a garbage player who has to be set up - i Mean have you seen dudes jump shot ? yuck.

Marion, a "garbage" player? You're kidding, right?

He's a garbage player who has been to 2 all-star games and has averaged 19+ over the last 4 seasons and who has shot 46% from the floor for his career. (he shoots a better percentage than even Kobe or McGrady -- if he got as many shot attempts as those guys, he'd be a ridiculous scorer, too).

Somehow, that "garbage" player seems to get over on the rest of the league. But when he encounters Bruce "only a pretty good perimeter defender" Bowen, he gets far less than he does against the rest of the league. That's curious. Are all the players that Bowen shuts down garbage guys?

[implacable44]

Look fromwaydowntown - i will assume because of your name you appreciate the long ball - having said that - Marion benefits greatly from extreme atleticism - dude can jump and the majority of his points come off put backs, dunks or rebounds. - he throws -- literally throws in an occassional three - he is not a good ball handler - he is a terrible shooter but he is athletic beyond belief and he plays to his strengths - he benefits from point guards and coaches putting him in the position to be the most effective. He is a Cedric Ceballos type of player. Nobody is saying he sucks but the Suns don't run too many plays for him or isolations. He gets steals, blocks, and moves well without the ball.

[samikeyp]

Yes but can he dunk with a blindfold? :lol

[implacable44]

he can surely do the "cartwheel" dunk Finley attempted in the dunk contest can't he?

[FromWayDowntown]

Look fromwaydowntown - i will assume because of your name you appreciate the long ball - having said that - Marion benefits greatly from extreme atleticism - dude can jump and the majority of his points come off put backs, dunks or rebounds. - he throws -- literally throws in an occassional three - he is not a good ball handler - he is a terrible shooter but he is athletic beyond belief and he plays to his strengths - he benefits from point guards and coaches putting him in the position to be the most effective. He is a Cedric Ceballos type of player. Nobody is saying he sucks but the Suns don't run too many plays for him or isolations. He gets steals, blocks, and moves well without the ball.

Actually, my screen name has nothing to do with three point shooting, but thanks for asking.

Your arguments set up ridiculous fallacies, implacable. If anyone points to an accomplished player that Bruce Bowen handles well, you say its because the guy isn't very good. If anyone points to statistics that say that Bruce Bowen is able to deny good looks and force bad shots, you say that statistics don't matter. If anyone points to logical problems with the positions you take, you simply change the position.

It's no wonder that you tell people not to question you -- questioning you just gets you to move the freakin' target.

The truth of the matter is this: players who score lots of points in the NBA still can score lots of points on Bruce Bowen, but they do that against everyone - it's why they score lots of points. But, statistically speaking, when those players are forced to match up with Bruce Bowen, it takes them more shots to get their points. Those guys taking more shots means that their teammates aren't getting shots. It's a fairly simple concept, but if a team only has, say, 90 possessions in a game and its top scorer takes 30 shots to score 30 points, that means that the team only has 60 other possessions to find somewhere around 65-70 points to win the game. In the 4 years that Bruce Bowen has been starting on the wing in San Antonio, the Spurs have used that formula to pummel the NBA into the best overall record (by a wide margin) and two championships. That's pretty convincing proof that the defense-first formula, whether because of Tim Duncan or not, has worked as well as any approach in the L.

What's even more interesting, I think, is this. The Spurs have a winning record when playing without Duncan. They have a winning record when playing without Ginobili and without Parker. They have a winning record when playing without almost every player on the roster who's been here before. But when Bruce Bowen misses games, the Spurs (12-13) have a losing record. That's a fact.

You have suggested that Tim Duncan would rather have Ray Allen here than Bruce Bowen. I'm curious if the question has ever been put to him in that exact fashion. If the question is "Tim would you like to play with Ray?" it stands to reason that Tim would say yes, just as he would like to play with almost any other superstar in the game. But if the question is "Tim, suppose you could play with Ray, but you'd have to trade Bruce to do it, is that cool?" I'd be surprised if Tim would say yes. Those are two very, very different questions.

I'd take the time to blow up some of your other vague assertions, but I've got work to do. I'm done with this. If you wish to wallow in some absurd opinion that Jerome James is better than Rasho Nesterovic and some belief that the Spurs should jettison a player who has been among the most vital role players in the history of this franchise in favor of less defense and more scoring then so be it. That sort of "we're not on SportsCenter enough" thinking is loathesome to me. It evidences little basketball i.q. and a lot of reliance on PlayStation to formulate opinions.

[samikeyp]

Personally I think James is a waste of skin but aside from Allen's whining I like his game. Just curious I44...If you make a deal for Allen, who do you send to Seattle? You probably said this earlier but I don't feel like digging through 6 pages of posts. :)

[implacable44]

Actually - FWDT - You see Bruce with Black and Silver colored glasses and that is fine - I recognize that he can play Defense but I also recognize there are better defenders out there and people who would be better as a Spur than Bruce Bowen will be this year to fill that slot on the floor. We will see how the season unfolds.

As far as a playstation - I don't even own one and I am more of the philosphy to win games and finish shots - the "million dollar move, 10 cent shot" concept doesn't fly with me. It is not my style nor my preference of basketball. I would much rather watch the Pistons, the Mavs or the SPurs play than the Warriors, Nuggets or Nets. I prefer Tim to say Iverson. I think the Spurs have enough to repeat but I still think they will make a move before the all-star break. You can't blow anything up because it is an opinion and it is my opinion - you can't change it and I don't even know that you have any basketball IQ, rather you regurgitate stuff you read on NBA.com, hear on Sportscenter or on the local sports talk shows.

If you are going to provide statistics as far as winning percentage - please provide a source - for example if you are going to tell me the spurs lose lose without bowen and include thier record for that tidbit - please include the record for all players you listed as well as who else was out on those games, point in the season and opponents played. Statistics - as anyone who has taken that course in college or studies finance, business etc.,. are easily and often manipulated.

Ray Allen is not a "me" player and never has been. Look at that team he carried into the playoffs and the record they put up - and then look at that roster. Heck he even made Antonio Daniels look good.

[samikeyp]

I don't even know that you have any basketball IQ, rather you regurgitate stuff you read on NBA.com, hear on Sportscenter or on the local sports talk shows.

I will vouch for FWD's knowledge. There are quite a few of us at this site who know their stuff. I will agree that Allen is not a "me" player but IMO James is and personally I would not want his attitude here. Just my .02

[implacable44]

I will take your word for it - doesnt appear to be that way to me but I am new and I am sure my off-handed humor has caused people to think ill of me as well but I go on..

[smeagol]

you can't change it and I don't even know that you have any basketball IQ, rather you regurgitate stuff you read on NBA.com, hear on Sportscenter or on the local sports talk shows.
You are new to the site so you probably don't know this. One thing FWD does not do is what you stated above.

Are you related to Walton? You are as cocky as he is.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm efforting your statistics. I'll have them posted by the end of tonight, with sources if you need them.


I will take your word for it - doesnt appear to be that way to me but I am new

For the record, I have never once suggested that the Spurs acquire Jerome James. I'll stand by that.

[ambchang]

ambchang - you are irrelevant - when i say " dont question me" - i am joking -it is humor - albeit difficult to comprehend in an email - and your logic is stupid - I didnt say he was a better offensive player than steve kerr, I said he was a better shooter and anyone who watches any ball - knows ray can get his own shot off and does all the time against anyone. again ray is a guy who's game i appreciate and who i think would fit in nicely with the spurs - an opinion - go get one instead of regurgitating what everyone else thinks or what you read - see that yellow line- follow it all the way to the wizard and get your own opinion
Your logic is even better, because I haven't even addressed your "don't question me" line, and for some reason, you are attributing it to me. Very persuasive of you to start insulting people by allocating wrong responses .
Wuhu, let me guess why what I said is similar to what everbody else said despite me not reading any of the other replies .... perhaps, it's just a very very odd chance, that a majority of people think that way, because it's how it is. If you can just, for a second, think that, perhaps, maybe, the reason your view is different from everybody else on the planet isn't because you have unrealisticlly high basketball IQ, but because you were just wrong. It is my opinion that Magic Johnson is the best in the history of the league to run the fastbreak, oh crap, I just reguritated somebody else's opinion, I HAVE to, MUST, change it to make myself look intelligent ....... Dikembe Mutombo is the best at running the fast break in the history of the league, man, don't I look and sound so much more knowledable now?
BTW, it is my opinion that Ray Allen doesn't fit in the Spurs offense, what are you gonna do about it? I mean, of course, other than put in ANY reasoning to back up your opinion like I did in mine.


my point was not to say I have played with so and so - or this and that guy - and ski didnt last 1 year in the L - and I know he was with the T-wolves -.
my point was to in black talking about dwight asking why he wasnt in the L - and I told him there are plenty of folks who could play ball that dont make it - folks better than people actually playing in the league/.
Yeah, please tell me something I don't know. If the NBA was a series of 1-on-1, we would likely see a few face changes in the league. But guess what Mr. Intelligent Basketball God, it isn't, and there is a reason the teams who are paying millions of dollars in investing in players do not dish out money to those players and ask them to join their team, because they would not help them win. But since we are on the topic on looking intelligent and seeking alternate opinions just for the hell of it, perhaps they were locked out of the league because all the teams are stupid, and they would rather pay $3 million to an underqualified individual, rather than invest that money into a vastly superior basketball player.

[ambchang]

Look fromwaydowntown - i will assume because of your name you appreciate the long ball - having said that - Marion benefits greatly from extreme atleticism - dude can jump and the majority of his points come off put backs, dunks or rebounds. - he throws -- literally throws in an occassional three - he is not a good ball handler - he is a terrible shooter but he is athletic beyond belief and he plays to his strengths - he benefits from point guards and coaches putting him in the position to be the most effective. He is a Cedric Ceballos type of player. Nobody is saying he sucks but the Suns don't run too many plays for him or isolations. He gets steals, blocks, and moves well without the ball.

yeah, Marion occasionally threw the 3 in 114 times last year alone with a 33.4% accuracy.
And please tell me since when did Ceballos average 10+ boards, grab a hell lot of steals and blocks.

[remingtonbo2001]

Bowen is a physical defender, which is far from being a "dirty" defender. I was a very physical player throughout high school, 6'3 guard. I wasn't, by any means, very quick, nor did I have lightining speed, but I found a way to compesate and in turn used my strength to overpower other guards. Yeah, I would throw elbows to clear room. The difference between physical and dirty, is based upon intention. I would find it hard to believe Bowen's intentions to be ill-fated. Any person who would make such a statement as to say that Bowen is a "dirty" player, is ignorant to the values and standards set by this organization and held by each player. I would always hear cries of ignorance from opposing coaches and players. I would lower my shoulder ever so slightly when driving to push off opposing defenders. There is a fine line to follow in order to aviod a foul, but it still bothered opposing teams, as well as my freshman coach. When I moved, my 2nd coach heralded the move. In no way was this move to cause harm to others, but was intended to produce results, being 2 points. You have two coaches, coaching the same game, yet with two completely different points of view. Those who claim others as "dirty", IMO, lack the competitive desire to win. There are obvious exceptions, but none reside on Spurs' Roster.

[implacable44]

how in the world can you offer evidence that Ray Allen would not fit in with the Spurs offense ? - that is your opinion and I disagree with it. I also think you are 2 sticks shy of being an idiot if you think that there are not people out there who have the ability to be in the league but didnt make it for one reason or another. - if you feel that way then you don't know how to play basketball and you are an armchair captain. You are a Dick Vitale so to speak.

[ChumpDumper]

You are a Dick Vitale so to speak.ambchang is a former NCAA and NBA coach?

Wow....

[ambchang]

how in the world can you offer evidence that Ray Allen would not fit in with the Spurs offense ? - that is your opinion and I disagree with it. I also think you are 2 sticks shy of being an idiot if you think that there are not people out there who have the ability to be in the league but didnt make it for one reason or another. - if you feel that way then you don't know how to play basketball and you are an armchair captain. You are a Dick Vitale so to speak.
Nice come back, where is YOUR backup of the opinion that Ray Allen would fit in BETTER THAN BRUCE BOWEN with the Spurs? None whatsoever. You never addressed how taking the ball out of Tim's hands and put it in Ray Allen's hands would be a good thing (about how Allen can create shots for Tim), you NEVER addressed how the Spurs can plug the defensive void left by the departure of Bowen (and have no quantifiable evidence of how Bowen is an average defender despite all the All Defensive teams, runner up to DPoY, shutting down Anthony, Allen, Marion, Rip and Billups during last year's playoffs).
Yeah, and I SAID there are players out there who are great players, and they can't make it to the league because they can't fit into any teams at all. Do you finally get that? I tried to draw a diagram for you, but it's really hard to do it with a mainly text-based writer. How about :idiot ?
What happened to the I can bust your ass therefore I must be a better basketball mind argument? You were rolling on that, why shy away? Tell me more about Isiah Thomas and Elgin Baylor please. And tell me how Larry Brown, Phil Jackson and Greg Popovich made the top 50 all time as aplyers.

[implacable44]

Ray has won wherever he has been and played with all sorts of players = hell he was able to play with sam i am and the big dog in milwaukee and still thrive. Ray won at college and ray will create space for Tim because of his game - He can shoot - spacing will be better on offense - I didnt think i had to point those obvious attributes out to an einstein such as yourself. what does bruce do for Tim's offensive game ? - nothing -- he actually hurts it with his shaq like free throw percentage - inability to go off the dribble - people dont guard him and they drop his man on to Tim in the post. HE is a liability on offense. - I have repeatedly addressed the supposed "void" which I dont think there will be - Manu is still there and he can lock up people and still be productive on offense. - there would not be a void. not to mention the anchor of the D is Tim and the system. The spurs play help man better than any team in the league.

oh and I can bust your ase - and what about LArry Legend ? Bill Russell ? Jerry West ? all top 50 players and all great at coaching / gm positions. what about them huxtable ?

[ambchang]

Ray has won wherever he has been and played with all sorts of players = hell he was able to play with sam i am and the big dog in milwaukee and still thrive. Ray won at college and ray will create space for Tim because of his game -

Ray has won wherever he has been? I guess we just have different standards, because the almighty Ray Allen has LEAD his team to the PLAYOFFS a grand total of FOUR TIMES in NINE years. During that same time span, the Spurs won THREE championships. And has anybody complained about Tim not getting the spacing lately? Let me see, we have Manu, Bowen (he did lead the league in 3pt shooting once), Brent Barry, Horry, Finley and Van Exel, and with, hopefully, an improving Parker, there would be a whole legion of shooters. Hey, why bring in somebody to shoot at $15 mil, when you can do that with $3mil? Which reminds me, how would the salary cap work in your little trade scenario?


He can shoot - spacing will be better on offense - I didnt think i had to point those obvious attributes out to an einstein such as yourself. what does bruce do for Tim's offensive game ? - nothing -- he actually hurts it with his shaq like free throw percentage - inability to go off the dribble - people dont guard him and they drop his man on to Tim in the post.
I guess that is how Bowen led the league in 3pt shooting in 2003 and shot 40.3% last year. My goodness, thanks for forcing me to point it out to you, Ray Allen actually shot WORSE than Bowen from behind the arc last year. Granted he was the focus of the offense and blah blah blah, but I guess Bowen's accuracy is actually helping Tim.
BTW, how would Bowen shooting better from the line help with the Spurs spacing on offense again?
We just signed Barry last year to be the shooter. If a shooter is all you want, then sign Damon Jones, trade for Kyle Korver, both of who are great shooters, and make SIGNIFICANTLY less. Why Ray Allen? Will Allen bring a different dimension of shooting to the team?

HE is a liability on offense. - I have repeatedly addressed the supposed "void" which I dont think there will be - Manu is still there and he can lock up people and still be productive on offense. - there would not be a void. not to mention the anchor of the D is Tim and the system. The spurs play help man better than any team in the league.
Hmm ... I guess that's why Bowen shut down Billups at the end of Game 5 instead of Manu and Parker. Now we will have Ray Allen instead of Bruce, instead of cloning Manu, so how again would the defense stay the same? We subsitute Manu for Bowen, and then Ray for Manu? Down grades in both instances, and then what do we do, throw in a few toads eye and lizard tongues, and suddenly, the Spurs defense will be just as good as before?
How did you address the void? By saying "I don't think so"? Holy freaking crap! You said it so it must be true. Bruce was on the all defensive team 5 times (thrice 2nd team, twice first team), and Ray has been there ZERO times. Oh yeah, Manu will be there to fill the void. Let's just ASSUME Manu is just as good as Bowen on defense (which we all know is not true, that's why Manu didn't finish #2 in DPoY last year with the same help defense, but let's just assume, and make it even easier for you), then who is going to take Manu's defense? Ray Allen? Or do you expect Manu to cover two perimeter players at the same time?

oh and I can bust your ase - and what about LArry Legend ? Bill Russell ? Jerry West ? all top 50 players and all great at coaching / gm positions. what about them huxtable ?
Did I ever say great players make bad coaches? You stated the ability to bust somebody's ass = great basketball mind. You indicated that the relationship is causal I just showed that there is no correlation between the two. I suppose you are only a basketball God, not an IQ or logic God.
In the meantime, read up on this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates

[ambchang]

ambchang is a former NCAA and NBA coach?

Wow....
I wish I was, but then that statement implacable44 made was the same as all the statements he made in the past. Wrong.

[implacable44]

Ray has won wherever he has been? I guess we just have different standards, because the almighty Ray Allen has LEAD his team to the PLAYOFFS a grand total of FOUR TIMES in NINE years. During that same time span, the Spurs won THREE championships. And has anybody complained about Tim not getting the spacing lately? Let me see, we have Manu, Bowen (he did lead the league in 3pt shooting once), Brent Barry, Horry, Finley and Van Exel, and with, hopefully, an improving Parker, there would be a whole legion of shooters. Hey, why bring in somebody to shoot at $15 mil, when you can do that with $3mil? Which reminds me, how would the salary cap work in your little trade scenario?


Hmm ... I guess that's why Bowen shut down Billups at the end of Game 5 instead of Manu and Parker. Now we will have Ray Allen instead of Bruce, instead of cloning Manu, so how again would the defense stay the same? We subsitute Manu for Bowen, and then Ray for Manu? Down grades in both instances, and then what do we do, throw in a few toads eye and lizard tongues, and suddenly, the Spurs defense will be just as good as before?
How did you address the void? By saying "I don't think so"? Holy freaking crap! You said it so it must be true. Bruce was on the all defensive team 5 times (thrice 2nd team, twice first team), and Ray has been there ZERO times. Oh yeah, Manu will be there to fill the void. Let's just ASSUME Manu is just as good as Bowen on defense (which we all know is not true, that's why Manu didn't finish #2 in DPoY last year with the same help defense, but let's just assume, and make it even easier for you), then who is going to take Manu's defense? Ray Allen? Or do you expect Manu to cover two perimeter players at the same time?



Did I ever say great players make bad coaches? You stated the ability to bust somebody's ass = great basketball mind. You indicated that the relationship is causal I just showed that there is no correlation between the two. I suppose you are only a basketball God, not an IQ or logic God.
In the meantime, read up on this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates

you read about Socrates so you are an intellectual icon ? I graduated law school in the top 10% does that make me more intelligent that joe smith or john smith ? You are a philosopher huh ? so philosophise - opine and make it your own - I don't need to regurgitate philosophy and theology to feel smarter or read a Socrates web site - my foundation is faith based anyway not so much on theology. thanks for the referrence though but I am already familiar.

Ray wins games. Ray is a top player in the NBA and these are all my opinions. The Spurs won three championships - not because of BRuce Bowen. Yes I know of several people who complained - TIm was not the most effective player on the offensive end last year - especially against Detroit in the playoffs because they could afford to cheat off of BRuce and double the post - hence turnovers and poor shooting percentages for Tim. Ray Allen is a legitimate scoring threat anytime he touches the ball. Bruce was 20th last year with 253 attempts - Ray Allen had more than twice that amount and he actually had people guarding him when he shot the ball. Bruces shots - all of them - are wide open -- wide wide open. he should be shooting 60%.
parker cannot shoot. and again my ray allen comment was a hypothetical for me - an opinion and ray was unsigned so it could have worked under the salary cap.
Bowen led the league in 3 point shooting in 2003 ? are you talking percentage when he put up 229 ? You know there is a reason bruce doesnt get invited to the all-star game for the 3-point shoot out?

downgrade? are you high ? manu and ray is a far better backcourt than manu and bowen - but whatever - - let me clue you in on the defense - the defense is successful because of TD and the help man they play at San Antonio but mostly because of TD. it is easier to play face-up man because when y ou get beat - you know you have help and you know that tim is at the basket waiting to block a shot or alter it. As far as defense- there are not too many folks in the league that go all out on the defensive end in the NBA and Ray can exert more than enough effort to play perimeter defense and funnel people into tim. - this is all hypothetical and you seem to be getting a little to involved - but that is probably because you cant play so you value your opinion. - you notice you are the only one claiming your opinion is fact - not me. I say it is my opinion and what I think not fact.

you implied great players make bad coaches - hence the isaiah thomas referrence etc. -

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

you read about Socrates so you are an intellectual icon ? I graduated law school in the top 10% does that make me more intelligent that joe smith or john smith ? You are a philosopher huh ? so philosophise - opine and make it your own - I don't need to regurgitate philosophy and theology to feel smarter or read a Socrates web site - my foundation is faith based anyway not so much on theology. thanks for the referrence though but I am already familiar.

Ray wins games. Ray is a top player in the NBA and these are all my opinions. The Spurs won three championships - not because of BRuce Bowen. Yes I know of several people who complained - TIm was not the most effective player on the offensive end last year - especially against Detroit in the playoffs because they could afford to cheat off of BRuce and double the post - hence turnovers and poor shooting percentages for Tim. Ray Allen is a legitimate scoring threat anytime he touches the ball. Bruce was 20th last year with 253 attempts - Ray Allen had more than twice that amount and he actually had people guarding him when he shot the ball. Bruces shots - all of them - are wide open -- wide wide open. he should be shooting 60%.
parker cannot shoot. and again my ray allen comment was a hypothetical for me - an opinion and ray was unsigned so it could have worked under the salary cap.
Bowen led the league in 3 point shooting in 2003 ? are you talking percentage when he put up 229 ? You know there is a reason bruce doesnt get invited to the all-star game for the 3-point shoot out?

downgrade? are you high ? manu and ray is a far better backcourt than manu and bowen - but whatever - - let me clue you in on the defense - the defense is successful because of TD and the help man they play at San Antonio but mostly because of TD. it is easier to play face-up man because when y ou get beat - you know you have help and you know that tim is at the basket waiting to block a shot or alter it. As far as defense- there are not too many folks in the league that go all out on the defensive end in the NBA and Ray can exert more than enough effort to play perimeter defense and funnel people into tim. - this is all hypothetical and you seem to be getting a little to involved - but that is probably because you cant play so you value your opinion. - you notice you are the only one claiming your opinion is fact - not me. I say it is my opinion and what I think not fact.

you implied great players make bad coaches - hence the isaiah thomas referrence etc. -

I've sat this one out but frankly this has gone on enough. Impy, you keep accusing people of regurgitating opinions because other people agree with them. There's a reason people agree with their ideas: THEY ARE GOOD IDEAS. There's a reason that your ideas seem so original on this board: ANYONE HERE WHO HAS THOUGHT THESE STUPID THOUGHTS WAS SMART ENOUGH TO KEEP QUIET ABOUT IT.

Watch the fucking finals tape of Bowen on Billups and Hamilton. They were wearing him like a second skin and he was altering their shots all over the floor. Most of their offensive difficulties had nothing to do with Duncan because they weren't anywhere near the paint. Same deal with your boy Ray Allen and the Sonics. How many times go to the hoop versus how often he does his catch and shoot after going through 12 screens to get open? He's a perimeter scorer, Bowen made him work for every shot he got off. You and Spursdaone need to get together and start your own board for stupid trade ideas. Of course, if he had his way we would have shipped Bowen to the Rockets for Mike James, which is a marginally worse idea than yours.

[implacable44]

you should have stayed in exile homie - your opinion means as much to me as mine does to you -the thing is my opinion of ray allen is just an opinion and you and your bootie partner get all hostile in defense of bruce bowen like you were his girl or something. - dude it is just an opinion - not a fact not anything other than what i have said it is from the beginning - an opinion. like i said - you should have kept sitting it out - nice use of vulgar language

[samikeyp]

Someone could equate your vehement defense for your opinion to the same way you are attacking others' opinions. You are right...they are just opinions, everyone is entitled to them, whether we agree with them does not change that fact. Also just because someone disagrees or is of a different opinion doesn't mean they are any less knowledgable than another.

Now if we can talk hoops again...I will repost an earlier question to you....who do you send to Seattle for Ray Allen?

[implacable44]

my point - i say it is an opinion and that is that.

well since I will get critiqued - let me look at salaries to match those - i dont want to get scrutinized

[samikeyp]

my point - i say it is an opinion and that is that.

I agree with you....my point was that others have them as well and all should be respected if not neccessarily agreed with.

Good luck on the salaries...I am not sure it can work without getting rid of anyone named Duncan, Ginobili or Parker.

[FromWayDowntown]

my point - i say it is an opinion and that is that.

well since I will get critiqued - let me look at salaries to match those - i dont want to get scrutinized

Right, but you say it's an opinion, then call people names for expressing a view that is different than yours. If you want us to respect your opinion, you should be willing to debate it in civil terms and to back it up where you can. At the same time, you should also be willing to listen to those who are expressing a different view and debate that view as well. You choose, instead, to express an opinion, tell everyone not to question you (whether joking or not, it comes off as unreasonably arrogant), dismiss evidence that is contrary to your opinion, and then call people names when they don't agree with you. This "it's just an opinion" stuff is a fairly recent event from you in this thread.

By the way, you might mix in some punctuation like a normal writer at some point. It would be much easier to understand what your arguments are if they can be read without the need for translation. (I would think that would be self-evident to a top 10% law school graduate, since effective communication is vital to a good lawyer, whether he practices or not).

[implacable44]

It is a message board dude. If you want to get into semantics and correct English then we can break down anyone on this board for their posting ( i.e. your lack of commas and use of double negatives- but then maybe that is acceptable for whatever profession you might be in). The least of my worries during the day is my spelling and punctuation on a basketball message board. Are you seriously pointing the finger at me for name calling etc? - well you do see those other 3 fingers staring you in the face right ? I responded - all I have done since I posted this is respond to people - you included and I am more than able to carry on any sort of conversation with anyone. Problem is - everything said on here is an opinion. We are talking about basketball - a game - and how it is played and who plays it better which will always be a matter of opinion. Get a group of 10 guys together and ask them who is the greatest and you will probably get 10 different answers. All your statistics ( manipulated and distorted for your benefit) mean nothing at the end of the day because we are talking about opinions.

[sprrs]

All your statistics ( manipulated and distorted for your benefit) mean nothing at the end of the day because we are talking about opinions.

The statistics were made to prove that Bowen is one of the premier defensive players in the league as FACT. Statistics don't lie, and if they can be manipulated as you seem to think, find some statistics that prove otherwise.

[FromWayDowntown]

It is a message board dude.

True enough. But if you want to be understood, particularly if you choose to be prolific in your comments, correct grammar is a significant step towards accomplishing that goal.

If it will placate you, I'll double-check my grammar.


Are you seriously pointing the finger at me for name calling etc? - well you do see those other 3 fingers staring you in the face right ?

I wondered aloud about the source from you which formulate your opinions, since you express such utter disdain for the observations and statistical analyses set forth by other posters. In my experience, such a myopic view of the game is the product of concerning oneself with who ends up in highlights and other such nonsense. You explained that I was wrong in my assessment. I should have immediately apologized for the implication. Lest I make the same mistake twice, you have my apology for such a crass generalization.

That doesn't change the fact that you continue to call people names simply because they express views that are contrary to yours.


Problem is - everything said on here is an opinion. We are talking about basketball - a game - and how it is played and who plays it better which will always be a matter of opinion.

Why is it that your opinion is somehow superior to anyone else's? Why is anyone's disagreement with your opinion evidence that they are intellectually inferior to you or worthy of being called names? That has been the clear implication of your posts since this thread's inception.


All your statistics ( manipulated and distorted for your benefit) mean nothing at the end of the day because we are talking about opinions.

Says you. Statistics are, inherently, a means for justifying or corroborating observations and resultant opinions. Certainly, there are things that cannot be measured. But, there are also things that can. When debating athletes, statistical proof tends to be among the better measures for assessing quality. You, however, appear to fundamentally reject the notion that an opinion can be supported by objective statistical proof, choosing instead to rely on your wholly subjective observations. If you choose that method of analysis, so be it. But your choice does not render the rest of us ignorant for finding objective statistical data that suggests your view is, at the very least, questionable.

I'm all about a good debate and am interested in reading the reasoning of those who disagree with me. But I (among others around here) don't have much patience with those who are unwilling to indulge a bilateral discussion.

[Ballcox]

^ Well put. Say, I need a lawyer, are you available? :hat

[FromWayDowntown]

^ Well put. Say, I need a lawyer, are you available? :hat

Always . . . . for a price. :lol

[implacable44]

Of course my opinion is of more value to me than yours is. I don't know you nor am I aware of any credentials that you might possess. I played D1 college ball and that is my experience. Value ? debatable - but for me, well I am comfortable in my basketball knowledge. It is easy to look up statistics and say he shot x% against Bowen and against the rest of the league he shot y% so Bowen is the man. He isn't facing just Bowen though - he might have shot 10 for 29 for the game but how many shots came against Bowen ? How many were over Tim on the drive or on a switch with Parker guarding him ? What is he shot z% against Steve Nash and that percentage (z) was worse than what he shot against Bruce Bowen - well is Nash a better defender than Bowen ? Well of course not but the statistics say something else. There is far too much going on in the game of basketball that are not measured by statistics. The pass that leads to the assist. The deflected ball that leads to the steal - the help defense that leads to the missed shot or turnover. - I would recommend you double check your grammar because your mix of verb usage is off quite a bit and since you have chosen to set a standard for prolific use of the English language I will take liberty with your errors going forward, i.e. : such comments like this : "I wondered aloud about the source from you which formulate your opinions" which makes no sense and is poorly structured.


I do not pretend that my opinion is superior to anyones and I have not called anyone a name save they did so first. Even for my reactions I apologize.

[FromWayDowntown]

Of course my opinion is of more value to me than yours is. I don't know you nor am I aware of any credentials that you might possess. I played D1 college ball and that is my experience. Value ? debatable - but for me, well I am comfortable in my basketball knowledge.

I'm not asking that you accept my opinion as your own. All I ask is that you consider and respect my opinion (or the opinions of others) when those opinions are presented with evidence.

You can disagree, but disagreement is completely different than utter disdain.


It is easy to look up statistics and say he shot x% against Bowen and against the rest of the league he shot y% so Bowen is the man. He isn't facing just Bowen though - he might have shot 10 for 29 for the game but how many shots came against Bowen ? How many were over Tim on the drive or on a switch with Parker guarding him ?

You're right -- statistics are not perfect. I was pretty sure that we had already established that. Nevertheless, I don't think it's fair to just simply throw them out the window.

If Kobe Bryant takes 30 shots to score 30 points, he's been inefficient offensively. Now, who gets credit for that inefficiency is, to a degree at least, a matter of subjective interpretation. But if Kobe and Bruce Bowen are on the floor together and if Bruce Bowen is defending Kobe Bryant and if those who observe the game note that Kobe only got free from Bruce on a handful of possessions, then it's fair to use the statistics to conclude that Bruce Bowen was relatively successful in his efforts to defend Kobe Bryant.

The same is true of observations concerning any number of other players who've found themselves defended by Bruce Bowen.

The point is that the combination of pure statistics and observations lends credence to the hypothesis that Bruce Bowen is among the very best perimeter defenders in the game. It lends more analytical credence to that point than vaguely referring to comments from guys you claim to have played pickup basketball against. And it is more likely to be accurate than your subjective observations, which are jaded by your pre-assessment that Bruce Bowen is an average defender.


There is far too much going on in the game of basketball that are not measured by statistics. The pass that leads to the assist. The deflected ball that leads to the steal - the help defense that leads to the missed shot or turnover.

I agree. But that doesn't make statistics useless. It just means that statistics should be used carefully.

The converse of your point is precisely why I disagree with your observations about Jerome James. In an earlier post, you suggest that we all knew that James was better than Nesterovic that night James was beating up the Spurs. But on that night, there was nothing about James' production that had anything to do with Jerome James. He made 7 dunks and all of them were the result of the Sonics' effective screen-roll game. Should I look at James going 7-for-7 and conclude that he's a center who will shoot a high percentage and dominate in the post? Not based on what actually happened on the floor that night. But your view doesn't account for what was actually happening -- it's based solely upon the results, which, again, had very little to do with Jerome James.


I do not pretend that my opinion is superior to anyones and I have not called anyone a name save they did so first.

My ass you haven't. This is from your second post, directed at either SolidD or ambchang, who had done nothing other than question your viewpoint:


dont question me - and if you don't think that ray allen and jerome james would be an upgrade to this roster you are as dumb as you appear.

I'm certain that I could find plenty of similar posts.

[Ballcox]

^ Implacable 44, you've just been OWNED. How does it feel?

[implacable44]

i have been owned? what are you smoking - ? we are talking opinions here and you chime in with you have been owned? I doubt you own anything and nobody owns me. he has a different opinion than i do. if you would like to discuss anything of revelance let me know but if all you can bring to the table is you have been owned than it is best for you to leave this to grown folks

read the prior posts before i made that comment.

[Ballcox]

^ Already did chief, and if you've spent any time around this forum, you would know what I'm talking about, I know some of the other posters do. Trust me my simple friend, you've been OWNED. Don't feel too bad, you're not the first. :hat

[samikeyp]

I44, You obviously know the game and no one is debating how much you know or don't know but you tell people that "I can bust your ass" or say that you are better than someone on the court when you don't even know how good that person might be. You also say that because someone didn't play the game that their opinion is worthless and because you did, yours is more valid. You call people out like that...they are going to react accordingly...wouldn't you? You make statements like that, then when people react, as they are going to do, you jump behind the "its my opinion" or "its a joke" card. You said it yourself...its hard to tell in a post. (actually you said email :) ) No one is saying you can't have an opinion or that your opinion sucks. Personally I respect your opinions, I just haven't always agreed. Just because I don't agree doesn't make me any less knowledgable about the game...as you have said, its an opinion. You will find that a lot of the posters here are very well versed in the all phases of the game, the business side as well as the playing side. I am not saying you don't know the game, but we have a lot of smart people here as well. You could probably learn something from them and vice versa.

[ambchang]

you read about Socrates so you are an intellectual icon ? I graduated law school in the top 10% does that make me more intelligent that joe smith or john smith ? You are a philosopher huh ? so philosophise - opine and make it your own - I don't need to regurgitate philosophy and theology to feel smarter or read a Socrates web site - my foundation is faith based anyway not so much on theology. thanks for the referrence though but I am already familiar.

Reading on Socrates = intellectual icon? Man, I suppose they don't make law students like they do, that's the BASIS of logic, I mean, people learn that stuff in Grade 9, and it's making people into an intellectual icon in your book? And yeah, why let the simple concept of the following cloud you.
You assert that good player = good basketball mind.
I came up with Isiah Thomas, Elgin Baylor and Magic Johnson to refute that point.
You somehow think that I imply good basketball makes terrible GMs/coaches, while my simple example was to illustrate that good player does not make good basketball mind.
Is it so hard to grasp? Mr. Lawyer. I mean, how do you argue in court without the use of logic? I would love to see it.
Let me draw up a simple example.
Person A asserted the invention of TV led to violence. Person B pointed out that violence was present prior to the invention of TV. Person A somehow think that Person B is implying the invention of TV stopped all violence, and thus say that violence is still present AFTER the invention of TV, and thus proving his original point.
See how stupid Person A is now?


Ray wins games. Ray is a top player in the NBA and these are all my opinions. The Spurs won three championships - not because of BRuce Bowen. Yes I know of several people who complained - TIm was not the most effective player on the offensive end last year - especially against Detroit in the playoffs because they could afford to cheat off of BRuce and double the post - hence turnovers and poor shooting percentages for Tim. Ray Allen is a legitimate scoring threat anytime he touches the ball. Bruce was 20th last year with 253 attempts - Ray Allen had more than twice that amount and he actually had people guarding him when he shot the ball. Bruces shots - all of them - are wide open -- wide wide open. he should be shooting 60%.
Could you find me ONE player who EVER shot 60% from 3pt line, ever? Or do you think sharp eye shooters like Steve Kerr, John Paxson et all all we doubled teammed throughout their career?
And yeah, don't let common sense and facts get in the way of your opinion. It doesn't matter that Ray Allen only got in the playoffs 4 times in his 9 year career (that is finishing worse than 16 out of 30 teams, or even 29 teams earlier on his career), which means that his teams finished in the bottom half of the league a majority of his career. But no, don't let that come between your opinion that he is a winner.
I don't know how the Spurs would have done without Bowen, all I know is that Billups was tearing the Spurs apart in the Finals until Bowen was on him, and then, for some magical reasons, he couldn't score.

parker cannot shoot. and again my ray allen comment was a hypothetical for me - an opinion and ray was unsigned so it could have worked under the salary cap.
Bowen led the league in 3 point shooting in 2003 ? are you talking percentage when he put up 229 ? You know there is a reason bruce doesnt get invited to the all-star game for the 3-point shoot out?
Bowen led the league in 3pt %? Didn't he? http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bowenbr01.html
Oh no, I just stated out facts, and since that's regurgitation of real life situations, it MUST be wrong according to you. For me to look smart, I will have to say that it is not the case, and that Bowen never led the league in 3 pt shooting. That will make me more intelligent.


downgrade? are you high ? manu and ray is a far better backcourt than manu and bowen - but whatever - - let me clue you in on the defense - the defense is successful because of TD and the help man they play at San Antonio but mostly because of TD. it is easier to play face-up man because when y ou get beat - you know you have help and you know that tim is at the basket waiting to block a shot or alter it. As far as defense- there are not too many folks in the league that go all out on the defensive end in the NBA and Ray can exert more than enough effort to play perimeter defense and funnel people into tim. - this is all hypothetical and you seem to be getting a little to involved - but that is probably because you cant play so you value your opinion. - you notice you are the only one claiming your opinion is fact - not me. I say it is my opinion and what I think not fact.

So you can just plug any Joe Schmoe in the Spurs system and it will work? I suppose that is exactly why Bowen made the AllD team last year, while Manu, Parker, Barry et all didn't. What about Miami? How did that happen? How did Bowen make that All-D team? By having Anthony Mason covering his back?


you implied great players make bad coaches - hence the isaiah thomas referrence etc. -
Read above, and you reading up Socrates is just to get the basics.

[samikeyp]

In the immortal words of Socrates...."I drank what?" :lol

[ambchang]

I've sat this one out but frankly this has gone on enough. Impy, you keep accusing people of regurgitating opinions because other people agree with them. There's a reason people agree with their ideas: THEY ARE GOOD IDEAS. There's a reason that your ideas seem so original on this board: ANYONE HERE WHO HAS THOUGHT THESE STUPID THOUGHTS WAS SMART ENOUGH TO KEEP QUIET ABOUT IT.

Watch the fucking finals tape of Bowen on Billups and Hamilton. They were wearing him like a second skin and he was altering their shots all over the floor. Most of their offensive difficulties had nothing to do with Duncan because they weren't anywhere near the paint. Same deal with your boy Ray Allen and the Sonics. How many times go to the hoop versus how often he does his catch and shoot after going through 12 screens to get open? He's a perimeter scorer, Bowen made him work for every shot he got off. You and Spursdaone need to get together and start your own board for stupid trade ideas. Of course, if he had his way we would have shipped Bowen to the Rockets for Mike James, which is a marginally worse idea than yours.
You watched the tape and concluded what everybody else concluded? You are just regurgitating the facts. You are a tool.

[ambchang]

I must say, samikeyp, you are one nice guy.
I am just worried that the day I need legal representation, I would be hiring a top 10% law student, and said lawyer can't even understand the fact that opinions with nothing to back up carries no weight.
Prosecutor: I understand that in the night of crime, the defendant was seen at the crime of the scene, blah blah blah.
Defendant: It is my opinion that it doesn't matter. My client is innocent.

[samikeyp]

thanks man, just giving my .02 on the whole thing.

[TOP-CHERRY]

Bravo, FromWayDowntown, samikeyp, and ambchang... Bravo...

[implacable44]

^ Already did chief, and if you've spent any time around this forum, you would know what I'm talking about, I know some of the other posters do. Trust me my simple friend, you've been OWNED. Don't feel too bad, you're not the first. :hat

I dont get owned worker bee. it just doesnt happen that way.

[implacable44]

I44, You obviously know the game and no one is debating how much you know or don't know but you tell people that "I can bust your ass" or say that you are better than someone on the court when you don't even know how good that person might be. You also say that because someone didn't play the game that their opinion is worthless and because you did, yours is more valid. You call people out like that...they are going to react accordingly...wouldn't you? You make statements like that, then when people react, as they are going to do, you jump behind the "its my opinion" or "its a joke" card. You said it yourself...its hard to tell in a post. (actually you said email :) ) No one is saying you can't have an opinion or that your opinion sucks. Personally I respect your opinions, I just haven't always agreed. Just because I don't agree doesn't make me any less knowledgable about the game...as you have said, its an opinion. You will find that a lot of the posters here are very well versed in the all phases of the game, the business side as well as the playing side. I am not saying you don't know the game, but we have a lot of smart people here as well. You could probably learn something from them and vice versa.


i dont make jokes -- i have opinions - everyone does. basketball is an opinion - you can attempt to validate that bill russell is the best player ever because of those rings or you can say wilt chamberlain because he scored 100 and even led the league in assists one year when they called him selfish and said he didnt make his teammates better. - point is it is all opinion - some of you homers opine that bowen is a better fit for the spurs than ray allen - i dont agree. you throw statistics out which carry little or no weight with me because ray allen is not a spur and has not had the benefit of playing with a big man the caliber of tim duncan. there are no statistics for me to present. you think one thing and i think another.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, offensive proficiency alone wins championships. Just ask the real champions, you know, the Suns, Kings and Mavs.

It's obvious that Bowen's defense was critical to the 2003 and 2005 championships.

But never underestimate some Spurs fans. Never.

[implacable44]

Man, I suppose they don't make law students like they do, that's the BASIS of logic, I mean, people learn that stuff in Grade 9, and it's making people into an intellectual icon in your book? And yeah, why let the simple concept of the following cloud you.

watch that sentence structure again brother - socrates would be flipping in his grave and pulling his hair out. " i suppose the don't make law studens like they do?"???? - be careful a little time goes a long way in expressing your thoughts - get them clear in your head before you type them and then proof read it.


"You assert that good player = good basketball mind.
I came up with Isiah Thomas, Elgin Baylor and Magic Johnson to refute that point.
You somehow think that I imply good basketball makes terrible GMs/coaches, while my simple example was to illustrate that good player does not make good basketball mind.
Is it so hard to grasp? Mr. Lawyer. I mean, how do you argue in court without the use of logic? I would love to see it.
Let me draw up a simple example.
Person A asserted the invention of TV led to violence. Person B pointed out that violence was present prior to the invention of TV. Person A somehow think that Person B is implying the invention of TV stopped all violence, and thus say that violence is still present AFTER the invention of TV, and thus proving his original point.
See how stupid Person A is now?

now i see how stupid your logic is though and how you have issues with the truth and choose to distort it. Are you telling me that Isaiah, magic and elgin baylor arent good basketball minds? you honestly think that they can play the game at the level they do and not understand it ? elgin baylor is the victim of an owner who bought his team for purely social reasons. If they would have resigned their players and if their owner would have been willing to spend money over the years they would have one hell of a team. - Ddint Isiaih win games with the pacers ? Didnt he establish the magic ? give him some time in new york - he inherited a team WAYYYYYYYYYY over the cap with a log jam of terrible players from Frank Layden and you want to blame isaiah ? - you have to be able to understand basketball to be able to play it at the level these guys do. magiv failed because he expected todays players to have the same drive, dedication and love that he did and they dont. does that mean he doesnt know basketball ? - hey tragic - you dont know basketball - this guy on the spurs board says so,. - please. - when you can comprehend the law and the simplicity of it - let me know.

Could you find me ONE player who EVER shot 60% from 3pt line, ever? Or do you think sharp eye shooters like Steve Kerr, John Paxson et all all we doubled teammed throughout their career?

i dont think they were double teamed but they didnt get the open looks that bruce does, - their man just didnt leave them - or wasnt supposed to huh steve nash?

"And yeah, don't let common sense and facts get in the way of your opinion. It doesn't matter that Ray Allen only got in the playoffs 4 times in his 9 year career (that is finishing worse than 16 out of 30 teams, or even 29 teams earlier on his career), which means that his teams finished in the bottom half of the league a majority of his career. But no, don't let that come between your opinion that he is a winner."

switch ray and bruce and see how good the sonics would have been last year. and the spurs would have had the same result - switch them for the past three and the spurs would have actually won consecutive titles and bruce would not be all nba defense or even starting for that matter.


"I don't know how the Spurs would have done without Bowen, all I know is that Billups was tearing the Spurs apart in the Finals until Bowen was on him, and then, for some magical reasons, he couldn't score."

I don't believe i ever said bruce cannot play defense - i know he can play defense. that is his niche. i seem to remember chauncey bustin a few jumpers on bruce though.

"Bowen led the league in 3pt %? Didn't he? http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bowenbr01.html
Oh no, I just stated out facts, and since that's regurgitation of real life situations, it MUST be wrong according to you. For me to look smart, I will have to say that it is not the case, and that Bowen never led the league in 3 pt shooting. That will make me more intelligent."

how nice of you to quote me and leave out part of it - I put how many attempts he had that year when he shot .414 - i am very aware that he had the highest peercentage and won the three point shoot -- er no he didnt - didnt even get invited , --wierd since they usually invite the league leaders.


"So you can just plug any Joe Schmoe in the Spurs system and it will work? I suppose that is exactly why Bowen made the AllD team last year, while Manu, Parker, Barry et all didn't. What about Miami? How did that happen? How did Bowen make that All-D team? By having Anthony Mason covering his back?"

ray allen is any joe schmoe now ? somebody call the sonics and tell them they wasted all that money. - are you honestly implying anthony mason was the best player on the heat that year? man i seem to recall they had this center- ferocious guy - great shot blocker - tenacious - you know his name right ? and you know it wasnt anthony mason = selective fact guy,.

[implacable44]

I must say, samikeyp, you are one nice guy.
I am just worried that the day I need legal representation, I would be hiring a top 10% law student, and said lawyer can't even understand the fact that opinions with nothing to back up carries no weight.
Prosecutor: I understand that in the night of crime, the defendant was seen at the crime of the scene, blah blah blah.
Defendant: It is my opinion that it doesn't matter. My client is innocent.


there is no fact that bruce bowen is better for the spurs than ray allen - that is an opinion that cant be proven unless they traded places. that case would even get to court. i would still take your money though,.

[Marcus Bryant]

NBA front offices never make mistakes. Never.

[Marcus Bryant]

The basic question is whether the marginal offensive gain from replacing Bowen with Allen would make up for the marginal defensive loss. There is something to be said for a sharpshooter, but there is also something to be said for a guy who can allow you to play some semblance of man to man D against top opposing perimeter scorers.

[Man In Black]

Perception is what it is and it goes against your opinion.

But hey, it's valid, but its just a what-if. Your opinion is virtual reality. Actual reality says different and it's bolded for our enjoyment :)

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/chris_mannix/06/13/spurs.defense/index.html

Clamping down
The Spurs are proving they have the defensive goods
Posted: Monday June 13, 2005 11:20AM; Updated: Monday June 13, 2005 9:49PM

There is an old mantra in sports that defense wins championships, which in the NBA is as close to gospel as it comes. Last year's Detroit Pistons team staged on a nightly clinic on the intricacies of team defense, while two upper-echelon defenders, David Robinson and Tim Duncan, anchored the 2003 San Antonio Spurs.

Go back even further and you'll find teams such as the Chicago Bulls, who, as talented as they were offensively, were equally dominating on the defensive end. Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan were regulars on the all-defensive teams, and power forwards Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman both garnered nods while wearing Bulls uniforms. Hakeem Olajuwon was a first-teamer during the Rockets' title run in 1994, while Bad Boys Rodman and Joe Dumars were among the premier defensive players of their era.

After two games in the NBA Finals, it appears the '05 San Antonio Spurs are primed to take their place in history as the next great defensive team. With all due respect to Detroit, which boasts the reigning Defensive Player of the Year (Ben Wallace) and a pair of defensive second-teamers (Chauncey Billups and Tayshaun Prince), San Antonio has proven there is defense and then there is defense.

The Spurs' defensive philosophy is simple: Have BruceBowen, the best on-ball defender in the league, neutralize the opposition's best perimeter threat while the rest of the team revolves around Duncan, whose tremendous basketball acuity allows him to assess situations as they occur and make adjustments accordingly. The strategy is effective -- in Game 2, no Piston scored more than 15 points, while several times during the course of the night Detroit players were forced to fire off-balance jumpers or were met rudely by an expiring shot clock.

The other problem for Detroit is that while San Antonio can shut you down, it also has an offense capable of causing problems. In Game 2, the Spurs seemingly solved the Pistons' defensive schemes, posting 58 first-half points while consistently befuddling Detroit with some of the most basic of plays. Several times Sunday night Spurs swingman Manu Ginobili set up around half-court and ran the high pick-and-roll with Duncan. Ginobili's aggressiveness forced the strong-side defender to cheat over and deny him the lane, thereby leaving wing players such as Bowen open for uncontested jump shots. Of the 13 shot attempts Bowen had Sunday, at least eight came with no defender within 10 feet.

San Antonio also appears to have a certain continuity that Detroit lacks. For the second consecutive game, Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich pulled Ginobili early in the first quarter, keeping a tight rotation of bench players Brent Barry, Beno Udrih and Robert Horry. On the other side, Pistons head coach Larry Brown is substituting at will, trying various combinations in an effort to match up better with San Antonio. A late ankle injury to Carlos Arroyo further depletes a Pistons bench that isn't very deep to begin with.

For Detroit to climb back into this series, two things need to happen: First, Brown must restore the team's confidence in itself. The Pistons clearly are a shaken team unaccustomed to taking two sound beatings in a series. Brown has won titles before, but he's lost them as well -- that makes him the only person qualified to remind the Pistons that they have the talent to compete in this series.

Second, Detroit has to ratchet up its own defense. This series will be won or lost in the trenches, not the open floor. The 76 points the Pistons put up Sunday likely is the average they'll post this entire series, but San Antonio's 97 is a more flexible number. For the second consecutive night, Ginobili scored 20-plus points, this time doing it on only eight shot attempts. Detroit has the means (Lindsey Hunter, Billups) to slow Ginobili, but the Pistons need some help. Both Wallaces (Ben and Rasheed) must do a better job of denying Manu such easy access to the lane, perhaps going as far as delivering a message to the scrappy Argentine in the form of a body shot during one of Ginobili's hard drives to the basket. Disrupt Ginobili and you wreak havoc with an integral part of the Spurs offense.

The next three games are at the Palace of Auburn Hills, making each contest a must-win for the defending champions. One loss guarantees San Antonio, at worst, a trip home with a 3-2 advantage and a chance to close out its third title in seven years on its home floor. The Pistons must play near-flawless basketball to achieve that goal, a tall order against what appears to be the next dynasty in the making.

AROUND THE FINALS
Rasheed Wallace was up to his typical tricks Sunday, choosing to make the media and the officials his enemy instead of the opposing team. The technical-foul champion managed to avoid one in Game 2, despite an Oscar-caliber flop and spread on the floor after a foul call (referee Dan Crawford showed great restraint with Wallace throughout the game). After the game, Rasheed punished the press by answering questions in front of a 3-foot wide beam, dismissing requests to move into the camera's line of sight. By all accounts, 'Sheed is a great teammate and solid man, but the level of disdain he holds for the media is not only a mockery of him but is embarrassing to the game as a whole.

[Man In Black]

How a Piston fan feels:
http://www.hoopsjunkie.net/blog718/index.php/2005/06/12/daily-fix-its-still-about-the-guards-stupid/

Not only in game two but also for this entire series.

While the Pistons had a lot of problems in game one of the NBA Finals the main one, which is the one most likely to do them in, is how to handle San Antonio’s explosive and relentless backcourt duo of Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili. Both players shook off the rust and bad first halves to finish with 15 and 26 points respectively. They may have outscored Detroit’s backcourt tandem of Chauncey Billups and Richard Hamilton by a mere two points but in the critical fourth quarter, it was Parker and Ginobili that were dominating the game by breaking down the vaunted Detroit D and either scoring on drives or knocking down off the dribble J’s.

If that continues tonight and throughout the rest of this series, then the Pistons, well, can’t win. And that’s the big dilemma for Larry Brown and his coaching staff at this point. What do they do with the Spurs guards, especially Ginobili? One of the reasons — perhaps the main one — the Pistons D is so good because they have two intimidating and prolific shot blockers in the Wallace Boys that opposing guards don’t like to mix it up with. After all, who wants to run into the heavily-muscled Ben Wallace or face ‘Sheed’s scowl and listen to him talk smack after he’s swatted away an attempted lay-up? Faced with that twosome, most guards are content to hang around the perimeter and shoot J’s.

That certainly isn’t true of the Spurs guards, who are always on the attack. Rather than be pressured by Detroit’s unforgiving D, Ginobili and Parker push back, putting pressure of their own on the Wallace Boys, Billups, Hamilton, and Tayshaun Prince by refusing to be denied the lane. And this is a different game than the Pistons are used to playing. They’re used to bullying opponents into bad shots and generally wreaking havoc on the opposing teams offense.

As we saw in game one, that formula just isn’t going to work against the poised and irrepressible Spurs, which means the defending champs need to find another way to win. Unfortunately for the Pistons, they don’t seem to have many other options. More offensive production from ‘Sheed would be nice but he’s got his hands full with Tim Duncan, Nazr Mohammed, and the wily Robert Horry. Even if Wallace scores 30 points will that be enough? It sure doesn’t seem like it, as any additional buckets he gets are likely to come because the Spurs, the NBA’s best defensive team, have shut down Hamilton or Billups.

Prior to this series, it was the fact that San Antonio is the NBA’s best defensive team that seemed to be overlooked by the hoops cognoscenti. When you consider beat the NBA’s two highest-scoring teams to win the Western Conference, it’s clear they have the defensive chops to shut down a Detroit squad that’s very average on the offensive end. Through in the fact the Spurs designated stopper and disruptor, Bruce Bowen, seems to have gotten into Richard Hamilton’s head — the normally accurate Hamilton missed six lay-ups in game one — and the Pistons are in trouble.

With San Antonio refusing to be cowed by Detroit’s fearsome D, the Pistons are looking to their offense for a win tonight. The problem with that line of thought is that, as we saw in game one, the Spurs play some pretty some mean D themselves. Beyond the Spurs great D is the fact that Detroit, a team prone to long stretches of offensive ineptitude, just isn’t the sort of squad that can outscore an opponent. So, we’re back to square one: it’s Detroit’s D vs. San Antonio’s O.

If we can take anything from game one, it’s that such a match-up favors San Antonio. Expect game two to be more of the same.

[Man In Black]

There is a role for players like Bruce :)

http://www.olympic-usa.org/11767_32691.htm

Let's get physical
Jack McCallum // Sports Illustrated // May 4, 2005


Goateed, soft-spoken and even-tempered, San Antonio Spurs small forward Bruce Bowen has the stolid aspect of a jazz bassist. Yet in recent NBA seasons opponents have singled out the 6'7", 200-pound Bowen as--let's not put too fine a point on it--a thug. "Nothing could be further from the truth," he says, flashing an enigmatic smile befitting either a cool musician or a cold-blooded enforcer.

While the postseason is the time when superstars such as Tim Duncan, Shaquille O'Neal and Tracy McGrady continue down their paths to the Hall of Fame, it is also time for bruisers such as Bowen to emerge from the background and make their marks (sometimes literally). Call them the Disrupters: Their unsung handiwork can change the flow of a game and the outcome of a series. "The pretty stuff makes the highlights," says Dallas Mavericks coach Avery Johnson, "but it's the guys who do the down-and-dirty work who can make or break a team."

The Nuggets, and forward Carmelo Anthony in particular, felt the impact of two such scrappers in Game 3 of their first-round Western Conference playoff showdown with the Spurs last Saturday in Denver. When Anthony wasn't getting banged and badgered by Bowen, he was getting jammed and jostled by swingman Manu Ginobili, whose style, as disgruntled Nuggets coach George Karl described it, is "put your head down and run into people." Anthony didn't play badly, but each of his 19 points was a struggle. With 22 seconds left and San Antonio's 86-78 victory and a 2-1 series lead sealed, he whacked Ginobili with a forearm, drawing a flagrant foul and an ejection.
"We may have gotten into his head a little," said Bowen. There was that smile again.

While Bowen had a typical nonoffensive night (three shots, five points), Ginobili pinballed his way to a game-high 32 points. Even though he has a sweet lefty jumper and a variegated array of moves to the hoop, it is Ginobili's willingness to sweep the floor with his headlong dives and bounce off opponents (or teammates) that gives him his identity. In a salute to Ginobili's style and Argentine heritage, Spurs guard Brett Barry has christened him El Contusion.

It is the perfect postseason nickname. Something changes when the phrase best of seven is in the air. The final six weeks of the regular season are--except for a stray team or two trying to grab an eighth seed--a sleepwalk to the finish line. But when the playoffs start, feet get lighter, elbows sharper, shoulders more forcefully placed. The in-the-paint bangers, loose-ball retrievers, back-screen setters and pick-and-roll thwarters make their presence felt. Backup big man Michael Ruffin, by his own account, has "never ever had a play called for him" during five seasons, but there he was last Saturday in Washington, making an early follow-up dunk that set the tone for the customarily soft Wizards in their 117-99 Game 3 defeat of the Chicago Bulls. "One small play can cost you a game and turn a series around," says Miami Heat power forward Udonis Haslem. "If you have an opportunity to make a play, do one of those little things, you'd better take advantage of it."

Or as Rockets coach Jeff Van Gundy puts it, "At this time of year, even the little things are big things." That was confirmed, for good and ill, in Houston's showdown with the Mavericks. In Games 1 and 2, the pesky defense of forward Ryan Bowen against Dallas star Dirk Nowitzki helped the Rockets pull out a pair of road wins. (It also earned the 6'9" Bowen, who had made just six starts and averaged all of 9.2 minutes during the season, a new handle: the Germanator.) But in Game 4 on Saturday in Houston, a Mavericks role player trumped the Rockets' star. Though McGrady scored a game-high 36 points, he lost possession with 11.4 seconds remaining when small forward Josh Howard--the Mavs' one true disrupter--knocked the ball out of his hands, keying a 97-93 series-tying victory. "That kid is special," Dallas swingman Michael Finley said of Howard. "He doesn't always wow you, but he's got that knack for making game-changing plays at both ends."

The little things are often delivered in a forceful way, for pure muscle is a major part of playoff basketball. That's why nasty-by-nature players have an advantage in the postseason, a prime example being Bulls rookie forward Andres Nocioni, whose energy will be critical if Chicago is to get past Washington, which squared the series with a 106-99 Game 4 win on Monday night. Rougher than Ruffin and bigger (but less skilled) than his countryman Ginobili, the 6'7", 225-pound Nocioni never goes around someone he can go through--and never steps aside if he can make someone go through him: Drawing offensive fouls is one of his specialties. "Noche positions his body, and he takes the hit, a lot of them directly in the middle of his chest, which is always a charge," says Bulls coach Scott Skiles. "Take that same hit in either shoulder, that's a block."

It's hard to say whether Nocioni thinks he plays dirty. "In Europe, I play like this all year and I never have problem," Nocioni says with disingenuousness made charming at least in part by his fractured English. "Here, I don't know why the people don't like my style. I try to defend strong. I try to get the rebounds. But some people aren't happy for this. It's a different style than most people. Maybe it's too hard for some people."

Sonics 6'8" forward Reggie Evans is too hard for some people also, though he is undersized for a power rebounder. After Seattle's first three games against Sacramento, Kings coach Rick Adelman filed an official complaint to the league about what he considered the Sonics' overly physical play. In helping Seattle to a 3-1 series lead, it was no surprise that Evans was throwing his 245 pounds around at both ends of the floor. When he goes for an offensive rebound, instead of trying to slither around the box-out, he latches on to his opponent's midsection, using one hand to keep him grounded while reaching for the board with the other. On the defensive end he sprints to the basket, carves out space with his butt, then spreads his stance to create more room. "I kind of sit back in the woods," says Evans, "just waiting for something to happen."

The best disrupters do the subtle things physically and, sometimes, the physical things subtly. Such a warrior is 14-year veteran Dale Davis, whose fierce play helped the Indiana Pacers stay even at 2--all in a bruising series with the Boston Celtics. Davis goes almost unnoticed by fans during a game--except when one of his rare shots clangs off the rim--but not by his teammates and coaches, who were delighted when he returned to Indiana from New Orleans in March. "Dale has been one of the main reasons this team has taken off," says guard Reggie Miller. He should know, for more often than not it is Davis who clears the way for a Miller jumper. Most fans don't look at setting a pick at all, but Davis studies it; he reads not only what Miller does ("He may take two steps left, two steps right, circle around and then come back up," Davis says) but also what the guy he's picking does, then he adjusts accordingly. And, unlike many of his oversized peers, he rarely gets called for an offensive foul.

Likewise, a player who can fight through a screen is extremely valuable at this time of year. Particularly when that person is stationed alongside Shaq, who more often than not impersonates a very large traffic cone when defending the pick-and-roll. In Miami's sweep of the New Jersey Nets, Haslem not only averaged 11.8 boards but also frequently took care of two men on defense: his own and O'Neal's.

The best example of a player who combines physicality with mobility is Detroit Pistons center Ben Wallace--"the best disrupter I've ever seen," says teammate Chauncey Billups. Named the NBA's Defensive Player of the Year on Monday for the third time, Wallace does everything on the interior-defense checklist: rebounding, playing one-on-one D and leaving his own man to block shots. ("Keeping a tight paint," as Seattle forward Nick Collison puts it.) But Wallace also patrols the outside, a daunting sight for smallish guards. Thanks in large part to the havoc wreaked by Wallace, Detroit held a 3-1 lead over the 76ers after a 97-92 overtime win on Sunday in Philly. Says Sixers assistant coach Lester Conner of planning to face Big Ben, "It's kind of like when offensive coordinators tried to run away from Lawrence Taylor."

Though Wallace would never be caught dead in a bustier, he is a direct heir of Dennis Rodman, a player who got into an opponent's hair and, in doing so, also got into his head. I know he's coming. Is he coming hard? Where's he coming from? "Whenever I see a guy pissed off," Evans says, "I feel like I've won." Nocioni has become that kind of distraction, too. He studiously ignores opponents, staying away from the pregame handshakes, eschewing the kind of fraternization that Bulls assistant Ron Adams calls "smoking the NBA equivalent of the peace pipe." Explains Nocioni, "This is my job. Everybody talks. I don't like it."

Bruce Bowen is aware that he doesn't win friends with his no-nonsense, never-give-in style, which was evident again on Monday as the Spurs took a 3-1 series advantage with a 126-115 overtime road victory. Along the way to becoming a great defender, Bowen realized he liked that moment when he had driven his man to the breaking point. "There are little signs you see," says the 33-year-old Bowen. "Some guys quit. Some guys start complaining to the refs. Some guys start barking at their teammates after missing a shot. It's great when I see the teammate look at him and say, 'What do you want me to do? All I did was pass you the ball.'"

Bowen relishes the strategic challenge, too. He likes to confuse a post-up player by appearing on one side of his body, then darting to the other. He gains an advantage, he says, by studying "where my man wants to go rather than where he is at the moment," then beating him to the spot. If they arrive together, Bowen will often claim the turf by adroitly "hipping" his man; it's much more subtle than an elbow and rarely draws a whistle. And if, along the way, Bowen ends up on the floor or fending off an elbow to his face, so be it. "Just part of the game," he says.

Some teams need that kind of toughness more than others. Indeed, the Phoenix Suns, who wrapped up a sweep of the Memphis Grizzlies with a 123-115 win on Sunday, want to run you rather than wrestle you. But as Bowen's comrade in chaos, El Contusion, well knows, at this time of year, those who don't bruise usually lose.

[samikeyp]

i dont make jokes


when i say " dont question me" - i am joking -it is humor -

:p

[ambchang]

i dont make jokes -- i have opinions - everyone does. basketball is an opinion - you can attempt to validate that bill russell is the best player ever because of those rings or you can say wilt chamberlain because he scored 100 and even led the league in assists one year when they called him selfish and said he didnt make his teammates better. - point is it is all opinion - some of you homers opine that bowen is a better fit for the spurs than ray allen - i dont agree. you throw statistics out which carry little or no weight with me because ray allen is not a spur and has not had the benefit of playing with a big man the caliber of tim duncan. there are no statistics for me to present. you think one thing and i think another.
Mr. Lawyer man, I really struggle to understand your logic.
You have an opinion, and I have an opinion, but since my opinion is different than yours, I am, as you would say, two sticks short of being stupid, never played ball in my life, regurgitating somebody else's points, etc ....
So what does it make your opinion more valid than somebody else's? Why aren't you the one being stupid when you throw out opinions with absolutely NOTHING to back it up other than more of your own opinions?
I doubt how they run things in your law class. How do you argue in class? I just don't agree, this is my opinion?
If you think Ray Allen can open up the offense, then say why this would benefit the Spurs. Manu, Barry and Horry opened up the offense for Duncan, so why would dishing out another $15 million for a spot up shooter be worth it.
Bowen finished #2 in DPoY voting, and finished 1st team D two years in a row, how can you possibly justify that pluggin Ray Allen in will leave the D exactly as potent as it was?

[samikeyp]

I44...were you able to work out the salaries on the Allen deal?

[ObiwanGinobili]

I just can't believe this crap is still going strong. :rolleyes

[ambchang]

watch that sentence structure again brother - socrates would be flipping in his grave and pulling his hair out. " i suppose the don't make law studens like they do?"???? - be careful a little time goes a long way in expressing your thoughts - get them clear in your head before you type them and then proof read it.
Got the people mixed up again? I never said anything about sentence structure, I don't care. And I never knew that Socrates speak English. And next time during your court hearing, don't mix up the Judge with the defendent.


now i see how stupid your logic is though and how you have issues with the truth and choose to distort it. Are you telling me that Isaiah, magic and elgin baylor arent good basketball minds? you honestly think that they can play the game at the level they do and not understand it ? elgin baylor is the victim of an owner who bought his team for purely social reasons. If they would have resigned their players and if their owner would have been willing to spend money over the years they would have one hell of a team. - Ddint Isiaih win games with the pacers ? Didnt he establish the magic ? give him some time in new york - he inherited a team WAYYYYYYYYYY over the cap with a log jam of terrible players from Frank Layden and you want to blame isaiah ? - you have to be able to understand basketball to be able to play it at the level these guys do. magiv failed because he expected todays players to have the same drive, dedication and love that he did and they dont. does that mean he doesnt know basketball ? - hey tragic - you dont know basketball - this guy on the spurs board says so,. - please. - when you can comprehend the law and the simplicity of it - let me know.
Let's see, Isiah screwed up Toronto, inherited a Pacer team that made it to the Finals the previous year and made it into a 41-41 team that got outsed in the first round. His last year as a coach, the Pacers finished 48-34, and once again got outsed in the first round. The following year, Rick Carlisle took over, and led the team to 61-21 and the ECF. But it doesn't matter to you, because according to you, making the playoffs 4 out of 9 years is a sign of a winner. We just have very different standards.


i dont think they were double teamed but they didnt get the open looks that bruce does, - their man just didnt leave them - or wasnt supposed to huh steve nash?
You don't think they get open looks that bruce does? You mean the Bulls team with Jordan and Pippen didn't command the same defensive attention as Duncan does? What about the year Kerr was a Spur? I guess the defenders were looking at the tape in year 2003, and thought, "hey, this Bowen guy is leading the league in 3pt shooting %, let's leave him alone and double team Duncan".


switch ray and bruce and see how good the sonics would have been last year. and the spurs would have had the same result - switch them for the past three and the spurs would have actually won consecutive titles and bruce would not be all nba defense or even starting for that matter.
I apologize for not being able to look into the alternate universe that you live in. Bruce with the Sonics will be disasterous. The Sonics will be worse than they were, because they will have zero offense. Now, my argument has never been Bowen > Allen. My argument is that Bowen is better than Allen defensively, and way better at that, and he fits in with the Spurs system because the Spurs doesn't need the offense that Allen can bring, and does need the defense that Bowen could bring.


I don't believe i ever said bruce cannot play defense - i know he can play defense. that is his niche. i seem to remember chauncey bustin a few jumpers on bruce though.

Wow, so you were expecting a TOTAL lock down where Billups have to score ZERO points? Whatever happened to your making the playoffs 4 out of 9 years = lead teams to win standards?


how nice of you to quote me and leave out part of it - I put how many attempts he had that year when he shot .414 - i am very aware that he had the highest peercentage and won the three point shoot -- er no he didnt - didnt even get invited , --wierd since they usually invite the league leaders.
Oh, let's not talk about how they do in games, let's talk about how they do with nobody guarding him, shooting a bunch of 3's from behind the rack. What is it? Bowen leading the league in 3pt% helps the Spurs win, while him getting invited to the All Star game doesn't? Wow, I never thought of it that way.
And him leading the league in 3pt shooting indicates that he had enough attempts to qualify. Is it that hard to comprehend?


ray allen is any joe schmoe now ? somebody call the sonics and tell them they wasted all that money. - are you honestly implying anthony mason was the best player on the heat that year? man i seem to recall they had this center- ferocious guy - great shot blocker - tenacious - you know his name right ? and you know it wasnt anthony mason = selective fact guy,.
Did you mean Alonzo Mourning? The guy would played 13 games, and averaged 23.5 minutes? While ferociously grabbing 7.8 rebounds and 2.4 blocks. But what happened in the other 69 games? Probably it was Duane Causwell, or was it Brian Grant? I mean, you can't possibly mean A.C. Green, could you?
Ray Allen is a Joe Schmoe on defense, he is a marginal defensive player.

[implacable44]

Mr. Lawyer man, I really struggle to understand your logic.
You have an opinion, and I have an opinion, but since my opinion is different than yours, I am, as you would say, two sticks short of being stupid, never played ball in my life, regurgitating somebody else's points, etc ....
So what does it make your opinion more valid than somebody else's? Why aren't you the one being stupid when you throw out opinions with absolutely NOTHING to back it up other than more of your own opinions?
I doubt how they run things in your law class. How do you argue in class? I just don't agree, this is my opinion?
If you think Ray Allen can open up the offense, then say why this would benefit the Spurs. Manu, Barry and Horry opened up the offense for Duncan, so why would dishing out another $15 million for a spot up shooter be worth it.
Bowen finished #2 in DPoY voting, and finished 1st team D two years in a row, how can you possibly justify that pluggin Ray Allen in will leave the D exactly as potent as it was?

what are you talking about ? you questioned my knowledge - this whole post has been people attacking my opinion article and me defending it. Your opinion might be the right one and mine might be the wrong one - There is no way to prove who is better for the spurs - it is all opinion. cnn - implacable - ambchang - whomever - it is opinion.
WHen was Bowen 1st team all defense two years in a row ? get the facts straight before you post or did you knowingly post a lie ?

The offense is opened up ? is that why tim shot 42% in the finals vs 49.6% for the season and 50.7% for his career? Did you not see how Tim was rendered ineffective in the 4th quarter due to being double and triple teamed ? again this is all opinions and you might be right - I think a different way though.

[ObiwanGinobili]

for clarification:

Bruce has been NBA all defense 4 years straight.
'01, '02, '03 on 2nd team.
'04 on 1st team.

[implacable44]

You didnt get people mixed up buddy - you left words out. Socrates doesn't have to speak English - sentence structure and words are important in every language. How did Isaiah screw up Toronto ? he had MCgrady, Vince, Damon Stoudemire when he was good and you say he screwed it up ? You think that was Rick Carlisle that turned that around ? the same guy who couldnt get the Pistons over the hump and LB comes in and they win the title ? that was LArry Bird turning things around. The Bulls - Jordan and Pippen were perimeter players and Tim is in the Low post - on the block - more space between the block and the 3-point line. Are you that inept that you can't accept the fact that Bowen gets more open looks on the perimeter than any of those people because - regardless of his percentage - he takes too few shots in the course of a game for the coach to worry about stopping bruce bowen - teams figure hey if he can hit it than we will lose - if he cant then we will be in good shape.

[Guru of Nothing]

http://budugllydesign.com/archivebud/bud9710/picts/speaker.gif

AND THEN?

[ambchang]

what are you talking about ? you questioned my knowledge - this whole post has been people attacking my opinion article and me defending it. Your opinion might be the right one and mine might be the wrong one - There is no way to prove who is better for the spurs - it is all opinion. cnn - implacable - ambchang - whomever - it is opinion.
Hmmm ... calling people stupid, idiot, etc .. is defending?
Of course we question your knowledge, how could getting Ray Allen and Jerome James, two chronic underachiever until their contract year, for a defensive anchor in Bowen.


WHen was Bowen 1st team all defense two years in a row ? get the facts straight before you post or did you knowingly post a lie ?
Perhaps we have different calendar, but the way I was brought up, 2004 and 2005 are consecutive years. Perhaps it is your opinion that it isn't, but I believe the general population has accepted that as a fact.
While I am on the subject of regurgitating other people's opinions (some would say facts), I thought I might find two credible sources to back me up.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bowenbr01.html
BTW, nba.com only said 2004, because they haven't updated it to 2004 and 2005.

The offense is opened up ? is that why tim shot 42% in the finals vs 49.6% for the season and 50.7% for his career? Did you not see how Tim was rendered ineffective in the 4th quarter due to being double and triple teamed ? again this is all opinions and you might be right - I think a different way though.
Tim being doubled and tripled was either a fact or not. he was either double teamed, or he wasn't. One thing I have to understand though, Ben Wallace, the reigning defensive player of the year, was credited with effectively guarding Tim Duncan 1 on 1, and then the double team usually come from Rasheed Wallace. But then, neither of them usually guards Bowen. How was ANY double team on Tim = people leaving Bowen wide open?

[ambchang]

You didnt get people mixed up buddy - you left words out. Socrates doesn't have to speak English - sentence structure and words are important in every language. How did Isaiah screw up Toronto ? he had MCgrady, Vince, Damon Stoudemire when he was good and you say he screwed it up ? You think that was Rick Carlisle that turned that around ? the same guy who couldnt get the Pistons over the hump and LB comes in and they win the title ? that was LArry Bird turning things around. The Bulls - Jordan and Pippen were perimeter players and Tim is in the Low post - on the block - more space between the block and the 3-point line. Are you that inept that you can't accept the fact that Bowen gets more open looks on the perimeter than any of those people because - regardless of his percentage - he takes too few shots in the course of a game for the coach to worry about stopping bruce bowen - teams figure hey if he can hit it than we will lose - if he cant then we will be in good shape.
When I quote you, I quote who posts, I NEVER take words out. If I did, show me the quote and tell me exactly which words I took out from your post. Go ahead, I challenge you.
Isiah Thomas drafted Damon Stoudemire, and what a wonderful draft that was. Where the hell is he now? Thomas left Toronto in 1998 in a cloud of controversy, and then Carter joined in 1999, McGrady came even later. Dude, if you want to question other people's facts, get yours straight. You are an embarrassment.
As for Larry Bird comment, I GAVE him credit. Learn the Pacers recent history before you post, OK?
Bird led the Pacers to the finals. Thomas took over, and then there were three years where he can't get them past the first round. Carlisle came in, and got them a 61-21 record and a ECF appearance. You are right, Carlisle couldn't get the Pistons over the hump, but he still BETTER than Thomas, your basketball God.
If you watch the Bulls in the late 90's, you will see that Jordan post his man up a LOT in the blocks. You will also see other teams doubling him constantly, regardless of whether he is in the perimeter or the post. And you want to talk about attempts? He shoots 3 3s in a game, making 1 to 2 a game. That's about 4 points, on 3s alone, every game. Now show me what Kerr shot in his career.

[implacable44]

Ray Allen is an underacheiver? a perrenial all-star and all-nba'er ( 2nd team last year) - some sources have him as the 5th best guard and almost all have him as top 10 and you say he is an underacheiver? I guess we do have different standards. Jerome James - yes - but maybe he will continue to play hard and work and this will be his breakout year - I mean look how much money the spurs gave Malik Rose.

I will take your word for it - interestingly enough Kobe was first team all defense in '04 too.

it is called rotations - - the man they are willing to leave is bruce bowen.

In response to people calling me those things and worse - yes

[samikeyp]

I wouldn't say Allen is an underachiever. I think he is a hell of a player. The only problem I have had with him is his whining. If he was a marginal player that would be one thing but he is way too good to act like that. I would not mind having Allen on the Spurs but I would not like what would probably have to be given up.

[implacable44]

When I quote you, I quote who posts, I NEVER take words out. If I did, show me the quote and tell me exactly which words I took out from your post. Go ahead, I challenge you.
Isiah Thomas drafted Damon Stoudemire, and what a wonderful draft that was. Where the hell is he now? Thomas left Toronto in 1998 in a cloud of controversy, and then Carter joined in 1999, McGrady came even later. Dude, if you want to question other people's facts, get yours straight. You are an embarrassment.
As for Larry Bird comment, I GAVE him credit. Learn the Pacers recent history before you post, OK?
Bird led the Pacers to the finals. Thomas took over, and then there were three years where he can't get them past the first round. Carlisle came in, and got them a 61-21 record and a ECF appearance. You are right, Carlisle couldn't get the Pistons over the hump, but he still BETTER than Thomas, your basketball God.
If you watch the Bulls in the late 90's, you will see that Jordan post his man up a LOT in the blocks. You will also see other teams doubling him constantly, regardless of whether he is in the perimeter or the post. And you want to talk about attempts? He shoots 3 3s in a game, making 1 to 2 a game. That's about 4 points, on 3s alone, every game. Now show me what Kerr shot in his career.

you challenge me to point out your lying, deceiving ways ? 0 okay my actual quote should have been : Bowen led the league in 3 point shooting in 2003 ? are you talking percentage when he put up 229 ? You know there is a reason bruce doesnt get invited to the all-star game for the 3-point shoot out?
and you left it out. look up the year he led the league at .414 he took 229 attempts - look it up !!!!!! you have been measured and found wanting.

mine are straight - what recent history would you have me learn ? bird led them to the finals - quit and thomas came in - bird went incognito - then he came back in his current role and fired isaiah and brought in his buddy Rick and they still can't get back to the finals. as far as my Raptors facts - Mcgrady's first season in the league was in '97 skippy and Isaiah was part owner and executive of the raptors until 1998 -- carter was a coach - not a part owner / executive. - get those facts right!

yeah I figured you would try to say Jordan posted up on the block - which he did but he mostly did that in his second come back not in the early 90's and when he did do it he was not in the low block - more like in the 8 - 10 foot jumper range which was perfect for his fade-a-way turn around J. He is still a guard and most of his play was on the perimeter.

[FromWayDowntown]

Jerome James - yes - but maybe he will continue to play hard and work and this will be his breakout year - I mean look how much money the spurs gave Malik Rose.

The next time Jerome James works hard and plays hard for an extended stretch will be the first time he works hard and plays hard for an extended stretch. Malik Rose's contract was a by-product of the fact that other teams -- particularly the LA Lakers -- were seeking his services as a free agent. They sought those services because Malik worked hard and played hard.


I will take your word for it - interestingly enough Kobe was first team all defense in '04 too.

You know, if the issue was acquiring Kobe Bryant and getting rid of Bruce Bowen this would be a fantastic point. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that (other than moral objections) you'd be getting far less static if you had begun with the idea of acquiring Kobe. That would, indeed, be a no brainer, since Kobe is both a talented scorer and a capable defender.

[implacable44]

actually the kobe comment comes from earlier when people were saying he couldnt play defense when i stated he plays better defense than bowen - so i just threw that in there. - I would still take ray over Bruce anyday. As I stated - some people have him rated as high as the #3 shooting guard behind Kobe and Dwade.

[ambchang]

Ray Allen is an underacheiver? a perrenial all-star and all-nba'er ( 2nd team last year) - some sources have him as the 5th best guard and almost all have him as top 10 and you say he is an underacheiver? I guess we do have different standards. Jerome James - yes - but maybe he will continue to play hard and work and this will be his breakout year - I mean look how much money the spurs gave Malik Rose.

I will take your word for it - interestingly enough Kobe was first team all defense in '04 too.

it is called rotations - - the man they are willing to leave is bruce bowen.

In response to people calling me those things and worse - yes
Yeah, I said he was an underachiever until his contract year. He was an all-star 5 times in his nine year career, and TWICE an all-NBAer in his 9 year career. But so what? He can STILL underachieve with all of that. Heard of Vince Carter? Some people are just blessed with a lot of talent, and they do not use it until contract years. Guess which year was Ray Allen's best year. It was last year, also known as contract year.
Watch the tape kid, they have to leave SOMEBODY open. You failure to address the fact that Bowen was and will continue to be a 3 pt threat continues to amaze me.
What about the salary part, have you got that figured out yet? And what about Isiah Thomas, tell me how he drafted Vince Carter and TMac, what other unique opinions did you have again? Oh yeah, Bowen not making the All D 1st team in consecutive years. How has that opinion turned out, Mr. Basketball Genius.

[ambchang]

you challenge me to point out your lying, deceiving ways ? 0 okay my actual quote should have been : Bowen led the league in 3 point shooting in 2003 ? are you talking percentage when he put up 229 ? You know there is a reason bruce doesnt get invited to the all-star game for the 3-point shoot out?
and you left it out. look up the year he led the league at .414 he took 229 attempts - look it up !!!!!! you have been measured and found wanting.
Still can't get the facts straight? This is your post:
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=543071&postcount=153
and this is my reply:
http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=543596&postcount=171
I didn't check word by work, but both word count came up to 497 words.
Which part did I leave out. If you want to go on and insult people
Get your stuff straight. You are an embarrassment. I mean, have you got ANY of your opinions right? What is the problem this time again? Your opinion is that I took it out even though I have the post in black and white, archived and stuff?
Here's a hint, if you want to stop looking like an idiot, read up on the post before you put up stuff accusing people of being a liar.


mine are straight - what recent history would you have me learn ? bird led them to the finals - quit and thomas came in - bird went incognito - then he came back in his current role and fired isaiah and brought in his buddy Rick and they still can't get back to the finals. as far as my Raptors facts - Mcgrady's first season in the league was in '97 skippy and Isaiah was part owner and executive of the raptors until 1998 -- carter was a coach - not a part owner / executive. - get those facts right!

yeah I figured you would try to say Jordan posted up on the block - which he did but he mostly did that in his second come back not in the early 90's and when he did do it he was not in the low block - more like in the 8 - 10 foot jumper range which was perfect for his fade-a-way turn around J. He is still a guard and most of his play was on the perimeter.
Alright, I will give you McGrady, but Vince Carter was NOT drafted by Thomas. he drafted Damon, Camby and McGrady. And what a bang up job he did, McGrady and Damon left, Camby was traded for Oakley. To add to that McGrady didn't even blossom until he LEFT Toronto. What a bang up job he did.
And I have no idea what you were talking about for the Pacers. You are basically saying that Bird led them to the finals as a coach, have Thomas come in, screw up everything, then Bird came in and brought Carlisle to the bench. Guess what, the Pacers went 61-21, and went to the ECF instead of being outsed in the 1st round, isn't that enough proof that Thomas is a bad coach, or at the very least, not close to as good as Bird and Carlisle. Let me see what the common bond between Bird and Carlisle is in their playing ability..... NONE, so your assertion that good players make good basketball mind is just plain wrong.

[implacable44]

nice post edit - good job. way to fix it - I was wondering what took you so long to respond. perhaps the gorilla icon is more indicative of your nature and personality than I first imagined. which opinion did I get wrong - the one about isaiah being employed by the raptors when they got mcgrady in 97 ? the one about rick carlisle not being able to lead that same pacers team back to the finals ? the one about ray allen being a better player than bruce bowen ? If you want to stop sounding like a hostile vagrant and stupid - ease your tension - drink some tea or something.

you will give me Mcgrady ? how generous of you. Mcgrady and Camby left and so did Damon and that is Isaiah's fault ? he wasnt even there menso.

so because the pacers got beat in the first round that means that isaiah is a bad coach ? okay. well whatever. I still hold that in order to play basketball at that level you understand basketball. I wont even address the rest of the pacers deal because you made such a mess of that with your twisted logic. - go edit some more of your posts.

[Man In Black]

actually the kobe comment comes from earlier when people were saying he couldnt play defense when i stated he plays better defense than bowen - so i just threw that in there. - I would still take ray over Bruce anyday. As I stated - some people have him rated as high as the #3 shooting guard behind Kobe and Dwade.

I'll tell you that Kobe can't play defense as well as you perceive. What he excels at is playing the passing lanes to look for the steal so he can smile big for the posterization dunk. People see that and think good defender.
I call it opportunistic defense. When it comes to lockdown, I'll call him above average. That means to me, that he isn't anything spectacular when it comes to defense. He has his moments but they are played over & over on ESPN making it bigger than it really is. His reputation is overblown because of the starmaking abilites of Entertainment Sports Progaramming Network

Like when he stopped Michael Redd in those Bucks victories. Perhaps he should've focused on Desmond Mason who was going off for 40 those same nights.

I've yet to see him regulary stop anyone who could match or exceed his quickness. I've seen lots of video in which he is the foil. The one I provided was great because in it, he matches up with Manu. He sets his stance and his shorts. Manu takes 1 step to the right, cross-over and he blows by Kobe and around Shaq. Phil calls the time-out and then bitches out Kobe for his CRAPPY DEFENSE. And Kobe has to sit there and take it because he knew he got burnt like toast.

Last year every Laker fan I knew talked about how shitty he played defensively, even his most staunch defenders said so.

Truth be told, Kobe has never finished Top 2 in DPOY standings despite his multiple placements on the D team.

So no, I don't agree with your perception. Oh and about rotations. While I agree with the fact that it would Bruce's man that would leave to go double Tim, I also know that Pop spaces out the floor as such to make that harder than you make it seem. So if Bruce only takes 229 3point attemps from the arc, just the fact that he takes the shot makes a defender think before he has to go to make the double-team and for Tim, that second is all he needs to surgically gut the opponent.

It ain't rocket science. It's smart use of the floor dimensions and good ball-movement. Pop has even added the wrinkle for Bruce to close out to the rim instead of just sitting for the 3.

Ray would be fine here but not at his ALL-NBA price. This is SA, not LA or NY and the Spurs are known for their fiscal responsibility. Getting Ray Allen is not fiscally responsible despite his talent.

Hell of a shooter yes, okay defender? yes. Worth it to Peter Holt to go over the luxury tax limit? That would be a solid no.

[implacable44]

malik rose was a fiscally responsible decision ?

[Man In Black]

Far be it for me to explain the cap to a genuis who can both ball at the D-League level or better and graduated in the top 10% of his law class but hey,okay.

For those 2 years that he was signed away from the Lakers, his contract wasn't that bad. Besides, signing him to that contract made it possible to acquire Nazr and still have cash left over for various other fiscal decisions. Why people always look at the total number is beyond me. The whole contract is spaced out over time. Now if RC couldn't find another GM to dance with, then maybe Malik's contract is too excessive. People might think the same for Rasho but like I said, it's over time that it's applied. It starts low and then the number rises against the cap.

To me, it was worth it to sign Malik for what he gave and to keep him away from Los Angeles. To me, it was worth it to sign Rasho over suckmyWokandi. To me, suckmyWokandi & Jerome James are in the same class of garbage center who only up their play in a contract year.

Fiscally responsible allows this team to compete despite being in the next-to-smallest designated Media Area. Yeah the Spurs know the cap and that, plus discipline, plus solid role players playing in conjunction with 1st rate starters = potential dynasty.

[ambchang]

nice post edit - good job. way to fix it - I was wondering what took you so long to respond. perhaps the gorilla icon is more indicative of your nature and personality than I first imagined. which opinion did I get wrong - the one about isaiah being employed by the raptors when they got mcgrady in 97 ? the one about rick carlisle not being able to lead that same pacers team back to the finals ? the one about ray allen being a better player than bruce bowen ? If you want to stop sounding like a hostile vagrant and stupid - ease your tension - drink some tea or something.

Man, you are hopeless, I edited the post? Where's the prove? I would imagine there would be something in the lines of "edited post" in the post, if it was edited. When you got something wrong, and kept calling people stupid/irrelevant/a liar, have the facts to back it up. Hurling insults at people after being continuously wrong only reflects poorly on yourself. BTW, do you have anything constructive to say, because I can only wax you so many times before feeling bored.


you will give me Mcgrady ? how generous of you. Mcgrady and Camby left and so did Damon and that is Isaiah's fault ? he wasnt even there menso.

so because the pacers got beat in the first round that means that isaiah is a bad coach ? okay. well whatever. I still hold that in order to play basketball at that level you understand basketball. I wont even address the rest of the pacers deal because you made such a mess of that with your twisted logic. - go edit some more of your posts.
So you are changing your original stance? A better player = a better basketball mind, that has been your assertion. I am sure Isiah Thomas can wipe the floor with Rick Carlisle, tell me how he has been a better basketball mind.
And please don't go on and say I edited my post with no proof, the post has been left the way it was all along, it is classless and ignorant of you to question my integrity when you were the one who has continuously got facts wrong. And I am telling you that I always quote whole posts, I never take out stuff from the original. If you want to say that I edit the post, prove it.
Thomas has everything to do with McGrady and Damon leaving. Just read up on Butch Carter, and you will see what I mean.

[ambchang]

BTW, nice of you to say that I was wrong in stating that Bruce Bowen made the All D 1st team twice, and when I was proven right, just ignored the post.
What did I do to it then? Did I edit your post as well?

[FromWayDowntown]

Far be it for me to explain the cap to a genuis who can both ball at the D-League level or better and graduated in the top 10% of his law class but hey,okay.

:lol

They don't teach capology in law school.


For those 2 years that he was signed away from the Lakers, his contract wasn't that bad. Besides, signing him to that contract made it possible to acquire Nazr and still have cash left over for various other fiscal decisions.

And that's precisely the point. Malik got the contract he did based on the market in which he became a free agent. That market had the Spurs bidding against their most immediate rival, the Lakers, for his services. And it had Malik being about the best role-playing big guy on that market. The salary he commanded was a a salary that was substantial enough to keep him away from LA. In that sense, the Malik signing was fiscally responsible, and Malik paid the Spurs back by playing a key role in the 2003 title run.


Fiscally responsible allows this team to compete despite being in the next-to-smallest designated Media Area. Yeah the Spurs know the cap and that, plus discipline, plus solid role players playing in conjunction with 1st rate starters = potential dynasty.

Precisely. The brilliance of Spurs management has been the ability to maintain great flexibility against the cap, which has allowed the franchise to go out and fill needs. That style dictates that the front office only fill true needs; not go out an fulfill every want without regard to how a particular player will fit into the Spurs' makeup and style of play. It works.

[ambchang]

You also have a private email to me on Isiah being a part owner Executive VP with the Raptors. He was the man in charge of drafting people. For which he drafted Damon Stoudamire (not bad), an oft-injured Marcus Camby and a TMac who never did anything for Toronto (left because of the bad blood between him and Butch Carter). So with the 7th, 2nd and 9th pick, the Raptors basically got nothing in return.

[ambchang]

BTW, for edited post, there is a message at the bottom that indicates it was edited at a certain time. See post 210 in this thread. Now go look at post 171 and you can see that the message had the note:
Last edited by ambchang : Yesterday at 07:20 PM.
Whoops, guess I didn't edit it today. All I did was changed grammatical error.
So, what have I done this time? Hacked the site and changed the date stamp?

[Man In Black]

So I 44...

Was it fiscally responsible or not?

[travis2]

Gee...not only is he a self-centered piece of work...he lies too.

Oh wait...he's a lawyer...

Nevermind...

:lol


(sorry, FWDT...you're OK...)

[implacable44]

Far be it for me to explain the cap to a genuis who can both ball at the D-League level or better and graduated in the top 10% of his law class but hey,okay.

For those 2 years that he was signed away from the Lakers, his contract wasn't that bad. Besides, signing him to that contract made it possible to acquire Nazr and still have cash left over for various other fiscal decisions. Why people always look at the total number is beyond me. The whole contract is spaced out over time. Now if RC couldn't find another GM to dance with, then maybe Malik's contract is too excessive. People might think the same for Rasho but like I said, it's over time that it's applied. It starts low and then the number rises against the cap.

To me, it was worth it to sign Malik for what he gave and to keep him away from Los Angeles. To me, it was worth it to sign Rasho over suckmyWokandi. To me, suckmyWokandi & Jerome James are in the same class of garbage center who only up their play in a contract year.

Fiscally responsible allows this team to compete despite being in the next-to-smallest designated Media Area. Yeah the Spurs know the cap and that, plus discipline, plus solid role players playing in conjunction with 1st rate starters = potential dynasty.

I don't need you to explain the cap to me - especially with the new CBA and since you probably don't even comprehend it. The thing about the league now is most times are going to be aware of the salary cap and avoid the luxury tax with a few exceptions so the ability to move players with inflated contract will be difficult except for maybe in the last year of that contract.

[implacable44]

Man, you are hopeless, I edited the post? Where's the prove? I would imagine there would be something in the lines of "edited post" in the post, if it was edited. When you got something wrong, and kept calling people stupid/irrelevant/a liar, have the facts to back it up. Hurling insults at people after being continuously wrong only reflects poorly on yourself. BTW, do you have anything constructive to say, because I can only wax you so many times before feeling bored.


So you are changing your original stance? A better player = a better basketball mind, that has been your assertion. I am sure Isiah Thomas can wipe the floor with Rick Carlisle, tell me how he has been a better basketball mind.
And please don't go on and say I edited my post with no proof, the post has been left the way it was all along, it is classless and ignorant of you to question my integrity when you were the one who has continuously got facts wrong. And I am telling you that I always quote whole posts, I never take out stuff from the original. If you want to say that I edit the post, prove it.
Thomas has everything to do with McGrady and Damon leaving. Just read up on Butch Carter, and you will see what I mean.

Dude you know you edited your post to include the last part of my comment - but whatever. - How is rick carlisle a better basketball mind ? 0 I got my facts wrong - isaiah didnt draft mcgrady - carter replaced thomas ? you said those things. Mcgrady left after Isaiah did ??

[implacable44]

BTW, nice of you to say that I was wrong in stating that Bruce Bowen made the All D 1st team twice, and when I was proven right, just ignored the post.
What did I do to it then? Did I edit your post as well?

I looked on the Official site of the NBA and they have him as first team once - and I already replied to that comment and said I will take your word for it - again - you get your facts right.

[implacable44]

You also have a private email to me on Isiah being a part owner Executive VP with the Raptors. He was the man in charge of drafting people. For which he drafted Damon Stoudamire (not bad), an oft-injured Marcus Camby and a TMac who never did anything for Toronto (left because of the bad blood between him and Butch Carter). So with the 7th, 2nd and 9th pick, the Raptors basically got nothing in return.

All of those people he drafted are good players - even today they are good players. The Spurs would love Marcus Camby to play in the middle with TD - again my opinion - but he blocks shots and rebounds - if he could only stay healthy for a whole season. Again how is it Isaiahs fault that these players left ?

[implacable44]

So I 44...

Was it fiscally responsible or not?


who Malik Rose ? - no I would not call that fiscally responsible.

[implacable44]

Gee...not only is he a self-centered piece of work...he lies too.

Oh wait...he's a lawyer...

Nevermind...

:lol


(sorry, FWDT...you're OK...)

I dont lie

[travis2]

I dont lie
Excuse me, you accused someone of editing their post to change their argument.

I'd say it's time for you to STFU.

[samikeyp]

who Malik Rose ? - no I would not call that fiscally responsible.

trading him was.

[implacable44]

of course it was. signing him wasn't and he wasn't worth the money.

no i accused him of editing his post where he quoted me and feel free to come make me STFU

[ShoogarBear]

This is great. How many lawyers do we have in this thread? Three? Somehow I'd expect more ipso facticum obscuris and Zo v. Wade.

Now if I can just find me some chain and an ocean . . .

[implacable44]

or maybe some res ipsa loquitor ?

[travis2]

Who's the third?

[Marcus Bryant]

fo shizzlis mi dizzlis

[travis2]

of course it was. signing him wasn't and he wasn't worth the money.

no i accused him of editing his post where he quoted me and feel free to come make me STFU


He quoted you properly from the beginning. Now go be a dick to others and leave the real debate to more polite people.

[FromWayDowntown]

trading him was.

so was signing him -- in the market that existed at that time.

It was fiscally responsible for the Spurs to sign Malik Rose to the contract his play commanded on the open market, particularly because it kept Rose away from the Spurs most significant rival.

Fiscal responsibility does not equal fiscal austerity. Fiscal responsibility is assuring that you act rationally given all of the market factors that exist. It is assuring that in spending money, you are not spending yourself into a non-competitive position or out of business. Fiscal austerity, on the other hand, is simply not spending money except as absolutely necessary.

Malik's contract: (a) kept him away from the Spurs biggest rival; while (b) staying within the going rate for a player of his skills and abilities -- Malik's contract is commensurate with the contracts for similar players across the league:

7 years/$42M -- Malik Rose
6 years/$38.5M -- Mark Blount
7 years/$73M -- Erick Dampier
6 years/$51.2M -- Adonal Foyle
6 years/$39.9M -- Juwon Howard
4 years/$34M -- P.J. Brown
6 years/$36M -- Dan Gadzuric
6 years/$34.035M -- Joe Smith
5 years/$30.7M -- Udonis Haslem
7 years/$51M -- Austin Croshere
7 years/$42M -- Lorenzen Wright
6 years/$48.75M -- Maurice Taylor
5 years/$30M -- Jerome James
7 years/$50M -- Kenny Thomas
7 years/$38M -- Danny Fortson
6 years/$50M -- Mehmet Okur
6 years/$36.77M -- Etan Thomas

By the way, here's my link (http://www.dfw.net/~patricia/contracts). Of those are contracts, some were signed before the Spurs signed Malik in July of 2002, and many were signed after that decision.

I suppose implacable44 might say that those objective numbers should somehow be ignored or prove nothing.

I would say that they tend to prove that the market for experienced big guys with serious holes in their games is contracts that are 5-7 years in length, paying out $30-$50 million over their lives.

Of the guys on that list, though, only Malik Rose and Okur had played significant minutes for a team that had won a title and only Malik Rose was courted by the biggest impediment to that team's title hopes in the future.

[implacable44]

He quoted you properly from the beginning. Now go be a dick to others and leave the real debate to more polite people.


more polite people who use vulgar language and tell people to stfu ? invitation still stands - or you could tell me where you are and when I go home to visit in two weeks I will come see you and see if you can make me STFU. how you like those apples?

[samikeyp]

so was signing him -- in the market that existed at that time.

I agree.

[CavsSuperFan]

implacable44- Are you a “Cage Fighter" Also?

http://b985.com/common/movies/photos/39919/39919.jpg

[implacable44]

Malik is an undersized guy with no position. he is 6'7 in heels and most of those guys you quoted salaries of are 6'10" and taller. I remember the message boards when the Spurs gave him that money and not too many people were happy about it and that feeling only increased with time and now he will be a knick and probably see little to no playing time. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said they wanted to keep him away from their biggest rival - the Lakers.

[coopdogg3]

so was signing him -- in the market that existed at that time.

It was fiscally responsible for the Spurs to sign Malik Rose to the contract his play commanded on the open market, particularly because it kept Rose away from the Spurs most significant rival.

Fiscal responsibility does not equal fiscal austerity. Fiscal responsibility is assuring that you act rationally given all of the market factors that exist. It is assuring that in spending money, you are not spending yourself into a non-competitive position or out of business. Fiscal austerity, on the other hand, is simply not spending money except as absolutely necessary.

Malik's contract: (a) kept him away from the Spurs biggest rival; while (b) staying within the going rate for a player of his skills and abilities -- Malik's contract is commensurate with the contracts for similar players across the league:

7 years/$42M -- Malik Rose
6 years/$38.5M -- Mark Blount
7 years/$73M -- Erick Dampier
6 years/$51.2M -- Adonal Foyle
6 years/$39.9M -- Juwon Howard
4 years/$34M -- P.J. Brown
6 years/$36M -- Dan Gadzuric
6 years/$34.035M -- Joe Smith
5 years/$30.7M -- Udonis Haslem
7 years/$51M -- Austin Croshere
7 years/$42M -- Lorenzen Wright
6 years/$48.75M -- Maurice Taylor
5 years/$30M -- Jerome James
7 years/$50M -- Kenny Thomas
7 years/$38M -- Danny Fortson
6 years/$50M -- Mehmet Okur
6 years/$36.77M -- Etan Thomas

By the way, here's my link (http://www.dfw.net/~patricia/contracts). Of those are contracts, some were signed before the Spurs signed Malik in July of 2002, and many were signed after that decision.

I suppose implacable44 might say that those objective numbers should somehow be ignored or prove nothing.

I would say that they tend to prove that the market for experienced big guys with serious holes in their games is contracts that are 5-7 years in length, paying out $30-$50 million over their lives.

Of the guys on that list, though, only Malik Rose and Okur had played significant minutes for a team that had won a title and only Malik Rose was courted by the biggest impediment to that team's title hopes in the future.


I didn't like the contract at the time and liked it even less as time went on. But after looking at those contracts I have to admit that it makes a lot more sense now. Still can't say I support that deal for Malik, but in the end, we were able to trade him, and acquire a starting center for 1 (soon to be 2) NBA Championships.

coopdogg3

[implacable44]

no - not at all. But I don't appreciate people calling me names - especially foul language and most message boards don't tolerate such language. No problem though - easy to talk big on a message board.

[travis2]

more polite people who use vulgar language and tell people to stfu ? invitation still stands - or you could tell me where you are and when I go home to visit in two weeks I will come see you and see if you can make me STFU. how you like those apples?

You're the one who came out swinging...calling people names first, saying things about them that weren't true, changing your own story...

And I never threatened you...now you're threatening me?

Be gone...

[FromWayDowntown]

Malik is an undersized guy with no position. he is 6'7 in heels and most of those guys you quoted salaries of are 6'10" and taller. I remember the message boards when the Spurs gave him that money and not too many people were happy about it and that feeling only increased with time and now he will be a knick and probably see little to no playing time. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said they wanted to keep him away from their biggest rival - the Lakers.

Are there any objective facts in your world? Any?

Malik's numbers (which I realize mean nothing to you) with the Spurs through 2001-02 were right in line with most of those bigger guys. That's the point, though; it has little to do with his physical size and everything to do with his production.

I have no recollection about any hue and cry over Malik's contract in 2002. My recollection is that Spurs fans were gravely concerned that Malik would end up with the Lakers, and found that his contract was a great deal, all things considered. I guess absent going back to find those posts, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The market is dictated by supply and demand. There were no other Malik Rose types on the market in the summer of 2002 and that one Malik Rose was in demand by two teams that were in direct competition for a single asset -- the title. That's precisely why the decision was financially-responsible.

[FromWayDowntown]

easy to talk big on a message board.

You mean like offering opinions without any objective support, dissing anyone who offers objective support for a contrary opinion, and then threatening physical violence against someone who calls you on that?

No that couldn't possibly be what you meant, right?

[implacable44]

You're the one who came out swinging...calling people names first, saying things about them that weren't true, changing your own story...

And I never threatened you...now you're threatening me?

Be gone...

no i was called names and responded with comments like stupid - idiotic idiot etc. - you came out swearing and stfu etc. - and i didnt threaten you - I just want to see if you are man enough to say that to me -and make me stfu as you requested.

[samikeyp]

no - not at all. But I don't appreciate people calling me names - especially foul language and most message boards don't tolerate such language. No problem though - easy to talk big on a message board

Hello Kettle?

[samikeyp]

or you could tell me where you are and when I go home to visit in two weeks I will come see you and see if you can make me STFU. how you like those apples?

hate to tell you amigo...but that is a threat.

[CavsSuperFan]

One time I was going at it on a message board, saying all the bad stuff...

I know you are but what am I? Make me...Make it in your pants? Don’t spray it say it!

Then my Mom walked in & she was not too happy... :smokin

http://b985.com/common/movies/photos/39919/39919.jpg

[implacable44]

Are there any objective facts in your world? Any?

Malik's numbers (which I realize mean nothing to you) with the Spurs through 2001-02 were right in line with most of those bigger guys. That's the point, though; it has little to do with his physical size and everything to do with his production.

I have no recollection about any hue and cry over Malik's contract in 2002. My recollection is that Spurs fans were gravely concerned that Malik would end up with the Lakers, and found that his contract was a great deal, all things considered. I guess absent going back to find those posts, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The market is dictated by supply and demand. There were no other Malik Rose types on the market in the summer of 2002 and that one Malik Rose was in demand by two teams that were in direct competition for a single asset -- the title. That's precisely why the decision was financially-responsible.


I guess if you say so. I still wouldn't have done it and I know there were several who made the same comment and like I said - that feeling grew with time. I don't have any idea who was available at the time - I would take just about all of those players on that list over Malik though. - of course as commented above it turned out okay because Nazr came here - but if that would not have happened and malik was still a spur - i dont think you would feel the same way.

[implacable44]

You mean like offering opinions without any objective support, dissing anyone who offers objective support for a contrary opinion, and then threatening physical violence against someone who calls you on that?

No that couldn't possibly be what you meant, right?


opinions are generally subjective by nature - and the statistics provided are subjective - subject to situations - etc. - we are talking about performance and performance is generally subjective - not onjective. i might hink ed norton is the greatest actor today but someone else will say that denzel is and might quote me box office numbers or something of that nature but that doesnt mean denzel is the better actor - there are too many variables.

I didnt threaten physical violence to anyone - I said I would like to give you the opportunity.

[implacable44]

Hello Kettle?

how are you pot --

[implacable44]

hate to tell you amigo...but that is a threat.

a threat of what ? a threat that I will come and see if he can make me STFU? There is no threat - no implication of any violence.

[samikeyp]

how are you pot --

you are the one talking big on a message board, then accusing others of the same...don't blame me for your misdeeds.

[travis2]

opinions are generally subjective by nature - and the statistics provided are subjective - subject to situations - etc. - we are talking about performance and performance is generally subjective - not onjective. i might hink ed norton is the greatest actor today but someone else will say that denzel is and might quote me box office numbers or something of that nature but that doesnt mean denzel is the better actor - there are too many variables.

I didnt threaten physical violence to anyone - I said I would like to give you the opportunity.


Had you held your arguments to that, then there would not have been a problem. But you belittled anyone who disagreed with you...and you picked the fights, not the other way around.

And don't mince words and hide behind your "top 10% in law school" mantle. It was a threat. Yeah, I freely admit I used a vulgarism. You were being a complete jerk (better??) to anyone and everyone and frankly you deserved a dressing down. But I never stooped low enough to threaten you.

[implacable44]

you are the one talking big on a message board, then accusing others of the same...don't blame me for your misdeeds.

I didnt talk big about anything.