This team lacks a consistent second option

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Spurs will be DOA come playoff time if they can't find a second player to help Kawhi that can be reliable. LMA is a ghost far too often and Gasol is too old to carry the offensive load. If the Spurs need Patty Mills to be their second best scorer that does not bode well at all.

[raybies]

You just need to stop starting game threads tbh

[100%duncan]

LMA's inconsistency is otherworldly

[Mr. Body]

LMA's inconsistency is otherworldly

I dunno. When he plays against anyone with any strength he consistently sucks.

[Hoops Czar]

Spurs gave up 73 points in the first half and all you can think of is the Spurs lack a second banana?

[dbreiden83080]

Well if that can't be LA

We be fucked.. No excuse when he was the first option usually in Portland.

[Chinook]

Nah. At worst, it suggests the team will be match-up dependent. If LMA has a good match-up, he'll dominate. If he doesn't then they won't. But for the most part, they should be fine. But they just have to upgrade for Manu and Tony. They have to. Forget corporate knowledge or culture. Those guys don't deserve consistent minutes right now and may never again.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Spurs gave up 73 points in the first half and all you can think of is the Spurs lack a second banana?

I don't think the defense is as bad as it is tonight, but their lack of a consistent second option is apparent a lot of the time.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Nah. At worst, it suggests the team will be match-up dependent. If LMA has a good match-up, he'll dominate. If he doesn't then they won't. But for the most part, they should be fine. But they just have to upgrade for Manu and Tony. They have to. Forget corporate knowledge or culture. Those guys don't deserve consistent minutes right now and may never again.

I think it also shows how badly the Spurs need to gun for that top seed. Avoiding the Clippers in the second round would be huge and only having to play either them or the Warriors would be huge.

[sasaint]

Nah. At worst, it suggests the team will be match-up dependent. If LMA has a good match-up, he'll dominate. If he doesn't then they won't. But for the most part, they should be fine. But they just have to upgrade for Manu and Tony. They have to. Forget corporate knowledge or culture. Those guys don't deserve consistent minutes right now and may never again.

I do not see those upgrades in the Spurs' system at this point. :wow

[ducks]

Minus a starter against a top 3 team is bad especially if he plays point guard

[spursistan]

When he is not scoring Aldridge has played like a turd this season. lack of effort and awareness has been more palpable on the other end....

[ElNono]

Nah. At worst, it suggests the team will be match-up dependent. If LMA has a good match-up, he'll dominate. If he doesn't then they won't. But for the most part, they should be fine. But they just have to upgrade for Manu and Tony. They have to. Forget corporate knowledge or culture. Those guys don't deserve consistent minutes right now and may never again.

Nah, 20 mins each is not going to make or break anything. But Pop does need to know Manu can't play back to backs, and if he's not having a good night, he needs to sit. Give Forbes a shot, etc. This is the time to do it.

[ElNono]

ultimately, the offense wasn't bad, we scored enough points... our defense was turrible.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Nah, 20 mins each is not going to make or break anything. But Pop does need to know Manu can't play back to backs, and if he's not having a good night, he needs to sit. Give Forbes a shot, etc. This is the time to do it.

I need Manu to play one last b2b this year in Toronto, might be my last time seeing him :depressed

[100%duncan]

Nah. At worst, it suggests the team will be match-up dependent. If LMA has a good match-up, he'll dominate. If he doesn't then they won't. But for the most part, they should be fine. But they just have to upgrade for Manu and Tony. They have to. Forget corporate knowledge or culture. Those guys don't deserve consistent minutes right now and may never again.

Definitely not Kyle Anderson :lol

[Chinook]

Nah, 20 mins each is not going to make or break anything. But Pop does need to know Manu can't play back to backs, and if he's not having a good night, he needs to sit. Give Forbes a shot, etc. This is the time to do it.

It's looking an awful lot like Manu's $5.6-Million cap hold could've been used on something better, though, and that's what's so concerning. The team needed to upgrade the back court so badly, which was what I was saying in the off-season and people instead turned it into "Chinook wanted to start West".

[Chinook]

Definitely not Kyle Anderson :lol

I'll take a damned traffic cone over fucking pothole Manu has been tonight.

[Mnky]

Spurs will be DOA come playoff time if they can't find a second player to help Kawhi that can be reliable. LMA is a ghost far too often and Gasol is too old to carry the offensive load. If the Spurs need Patty Mills to be their second best scorer that does not bode well at all.

Kawhi took as many shots as LMA and Gasol combined tbh.. HE has to give them an opportunity to shoot. They're both shooting above 50%, where as he is at 30%.

The inconsistency this game is Kawhi, not LMA and Gasol.

[sasaint]

When he is not scoring Aldridge has played like a turd this season. lack of effort and awareness has been more palpable on the other end....

Shooting... If you're LaMarcus Aldridge it's what you do.

[100%duncan]

I'll take a damned traffic cone over fucking pothole Manu has been tonight.

Yeah but you were talking about the whole season when you spoke of upgrading. Don't act like kyle anderson doesn't take up minutes, space on the floor, and a roster spot.

[ElNono]

It's looking an awful lot like Manu's $5.6-Million cap hold could've been used on something better, though, and that's what's so concerning. The team needed to upgrade the back court so badly, which was what I was saying in the off-season and people instead turned it into "Chinook wanted to start West".

Manu is still playing his 20mpg role, letting Simms and Patty do their thing. It's not going to make or break anything.

The problem here is defense, we just had two teams come home and drop ~40 points in the 1st quarter. That's not on one guy. I think Danny will help *some*, but there's no savior here, we need to play better D.

[sasaint]

Kawhi took as many shots as LMA and Gasol combined tbh.. HE has to give them an opportunity to shoot. They're both shooting above 50%, where as he is at 30%.

The inconsistency this game is Kawhi, not LMA and Gasol.

Kawhi is clearly forcing. And you are right - when a player is off, the answer is not to force poor shot selection. Tbh, this is the first time we have seen it from him this season. We will see how he responds in the 2nd half.

[ElNono]

FWIW, I don't think Kyle played bad this game or anything, he's just not a long term solution to this problem.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

SA Shits defense is the fucking worst in sports. Worse than the Cleveland Browns run defense.

[Chinook]

Yeah but you were talking about the whole season when you spoke of upgrading. Don't act like kyle anderson doesn't take up minutes, space on the floor, and a roster spot.

Nah. They need to acquire such an upgrade.

[Chinook]

Manu is still playing his 20mpg role, letting Simms and Patty do their thing. It's not going to make or break anything.

The problem here is defense, we just had two teams come home and drop ~40 points in the 1st quarter. That's not on one guy. I think Danny will help *some*, but there's no savior here, we need to play better D.

Yeah, Manu is making $14 Million to cater to guys on rookie and min deals. But he's looking bad as those guys. That's a problem with him, not the rest of the roster. The Spurs needed to spend their cap carefully last summer, but they sort of pissed it away.

[ElNono]

Yeah, Manu is making $14 Million to cater to guys on rookie and min deals. But he's looking bad as those guys. That's a problem with him, not the rest of the roster. The Spurs needed to spend their cap carefully last summer, but they sort of pissed it away.

Once Dedmon was signed with the RE, what Manu makes doesn't matter, and you know that. The Spurs did what they thought they needed to do, right or wrong.

Those decisions have nothing to do with the fact that two teams came to our arena and dropped almost 40 points in the 1st quarter, and we played soft defense.

We can spin this about the offseason all night long, but it's still dodging the fact that our problem in these games have been defense, not offense.

[HarlemHeat37]

They allowed 73 points in the 1st half:lol

I hate Aldridge, but he's a great #2 scoring option and #3 best player on a title team, tbh..

Offensively, this team has the same problem it's had for the past few years, which is the lack of a big-time playmaker at the PG position..Parker is finished and Ginobili shouldn't be playing more than 15 MPG(closer to 10 when he's struggling, like tonight)..when you're hoping for 8th-10th caliber players like Simmons and Anderson to be your solution, you're in trouble, tbh..

[ElNono]

They allowed 73 points in the 1st half:lol

I hate Aldridge, but he's a great #2 scoring option and #3 best player on a title team, tbh..

Offensively, this team has the same problem it's had for the past few years, which is the lack of a big-time playmaker at the PG position..Parker is finished and Ginobili shouldn't be playing more than 15 MPG(closer to 10 when he's struggling, like tonight)..when you're hoping for 8th-10th caliber players like Simmons and Anderson to be your solution, you're in trouble, tbh..

soft and lazy defense, tbh... i get trying to sleepwalk through the Jazz, a nobody, but you'd think they'll be awake against the Clips, tbh

[DAF86]

LA's offense has been the least of our problems tonight.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

They allowed 73 points in the 1st half:lol

I hate Aldridge, but he's a great #2 scoring option and #3 best player on a title team, tbh..

Offensively, this team has the same problem it's had for the past few years, which is the lack of a big-time playmaker at the PG position..Parker is finished and Ginobili shouldn't be playing more than 15 MPG(closer to 10 when he's struggling, like tonight)..when you're hoping for 8th-10th caliber players like Simmons and Anderson to be your solution, you're in trouble, tbh..

He is in theory but he goes missing in far too many games. He only plays well in little spurts and then goes back to being a ghost.


The defense has been awful tonight, but I don't think their defense will be THIS bad. The lack of a second option is something that's been happening a lot.

[ElNono]

I had a bad feeling about this game, since last night... that's why I started the tank thread... we're an old team in a lot of key positions, tbh... not just Tony and Manu, but also Pau and Lee is getting up there too.

[313]

The defense has been abysmal this year, that's the real issue.

Also LMA has easily outplayed Kawhi tonight while matched up with Blake and Kawhi getting shut down by Jamal Crawford.

[313]

I had a bad feeling about this game, since last night... that's why I started the tank thread... we're an old team in a lot of key positions, tbh... not just Tony and Manu, but also Pau and Lee is getting up there too.
Going to be interesting to see what the roster looks like in a couple years. We've sort of retooled, but with all the old pieces the rebuild has yet to come. Kawhi could spend a year or two of his prime on a young rebuilding team.

[Chinook]

Once Dedmon was signed with the RE, what Manu makes doesn't matter, and you know that.

Let's just get this out of the way, no. That's not the way it works. It was all set up before the moratorium ended. Manu took the hold exactly as I said he did, and that's not looking like a good deal right now. Matching Philly's offer is not looking like a good deal, because Manu is playing worse than guys making a tenth or less of what he's making. It's horrible.


We can spin this about the offseason all night long, but it's still dodging the fact that our problem in these games have been defense, not offense.

Nah, the problem's been offense. Green will fix almost every defensive issue because a) He's worlds better than Anderson/Simmons, b) He can cover for Parker/Mills by switching over go PGs and getting out on the break c) He can give Kawhi breaks rather than forcing Leonard to work on both ends. There are still problems, but the Spurs will be a top defense once he returns. The problem in this game isn't the D; it's that the Spurs are playing Kawhiso, and when those shots aren't falling (and the refs aren't blowing the whistle), the whole team breaks down. The Clippers get run-outs and can control the past. Morale falls apart. Getting that third scoring would make the team better on both ends.

[TheGreatYacht]

This team lacks a first option against a Doc Rivers led team

[HarlemHeat37]

Kawhi was atrocious tonight, by far his worst game of the season..while nobody looked great on offense, it was the defense was clearly the issue..I missed the first half, but it appears that they haven't shown any resistance against the Clippers offense, so far..

It's too early to say it's a problem, though, as the defense had been really solid until tonight(granted their opponents have been relatively weak)..

[ElNono]

Going to be interesting to see what the roster looks like in a couple years. We've sort of retooled, but with all the old pieces the rebuild has yet to come. Kawhi could spend a year or two of his prime on a young rebuilding team.

This defense is the kind of shit I was concerned about when TD retired... also, for as much shit Manu gets (and rightly so a lot of times), he's still one of our best perimeter defenders, especially with Danny being MIA and Tony getting 30+ mpg.

LMA/Pau is going to struggle defensively against certain matchups, and Pop is going to have to go to Dedmon more sometimes.

I mean, we're probably not going to survive bad shooting nights from Kawhi anyways, that's how we're built. But we're 7 games into the new season, 5-2, we can get better.

[313]

This defense is the kind of shit I was concerned about when TD retired... also, for as much shit Manu gets (and rightly so a lot of times), he's still one of our best perimeter defenders, especially with Danny being MIA and Tony getting 30+ mpg.

LMA/Pau is going to struggle defensively against certain matchups, and Pop is going to have to go to Dedmon more sometimes.

I mean, we're probably not going to survive bad shooting nights from Kawhi anyways, that's how we're built. But we're 7 games into the new season, 5-2, we can get better.
Oh, it's still early for sure. With GS looking mortal, i feel the Spurs have a good a chance as any team to go on a special run come playoffs. We really haven't seen this team at full strength with Danny back in the SL(and Anderson benched? One can pray)

On Deadman, I really wonder how open Pau is to coming off the bench as long as it's only in certain match ups. Maybe he can compromise with Pop.

[ElNono]

Let's just get this out of the way, no. That's not the way it works. It was all set up before the moratorium ended. Manu took the hold exactly as I said he did, and that's not looking like a good deal right now. Matching Philly's offer is not looking like a good deal, because Manu is playing worse than guys making a tenth or less of what he's making. It's horrible.

There's nothing to get out of the way. It was the Spurs that decided to give Dedmon the RE, instead of giving it to Manu. Once that happened, they couldn't sign Manu with the RE, which is something you yourself peddled all offseason. After THAT happened, they could only sign Manu with cap. And the Spurs didn't match Philly's offer. Manu actually was offered more than what the Spurs paid. Now, you can say Manu is not a $14m player, that's fine. I can agree with that. It's immaterial though, he had to be signed with capspace, period. Again, the Spurs were in full control throughout this entire process, they knew exactly who they wanted to sign, keep, sacrifice, etc.


Nah, the problem's been offense. Green will fix almost every defensive issue because a) He's worlds better than Anderson/Simmons, b) He can cover for Parker/Mills by switching over go PGs and getting out on the break c) He can give Kawhi breaks rather than forcing Leonard to work on both ends. There are still problems, but the Spurs will be a top defense once he returns. The problem in this game isn't the D; it's that the Spurs are playing Kawhiso, and when those shots aren't falling (and the refs aren't blowing the whistle), the whole team breaks down. The Clippers get run-outs and can control the past. Morale falls apart. Getting that third scoring would make the team better on both ends.

That's how this team's offense is built, at least the starters: Kawhi-ISO, Kawhi-Postup, LMA-Postup... we just can't give up 70 points at the half and pretend to win many games, tbh...

[ElNono]

Kawhi was atrocious tonight, by far his worst game of the season..while nobody looked great on offense, it was the defense was clearly the issue..I missed the first half, but it appears that they haven't shown any resistance against the Clippers offense, so far..

It's too early to say it's a problem, though, as the defense had been really solid until tonight(granted their opponents have been relatively weak)..

We started 8-0 with Pau and LMA hitting 3s... and I guess they thought we had it in the bag...

Everything on D was terrible: transition, we were switching on everything, bad 3 point covers, people looked lost. A lot like vs Utah a week ago, tbh...

[Chinook]

There's nothing to get out of the way. It was the Spurs that decided to give Dedmon the RE, instead of giving it to Manu.

You're trying to put it back in the way, but no. They didn't give Dedmon anything until after they committed to keeping Manu. Dedmon was signed with a cap exception, and keeping Manu required space for his hold. That space should've gone to someone else, it seems.


Now, you can say Manu is not a $14m player, that's fine. I can agree with that. It's immaterial though, he had to be signed with capspace, period.

There's no period there. Manu shouldn't have been re-sign at all, not just re-signed for that much. The team needed to figure out something besides him. I didn't even want him back for the min. The team needed to upgrade their back court, but instead they kept Parker and reupped Manu.


Again, the Spurs were in full control throughout this entire process, they knew exactly who they wanted to sign, keep, sacrifice, etc.

Yes, and they were wrong. That the Spurs keep trotting out Manu is just as wrong as them repeatedly signing Bonner. They just can't afford to continue ignoring that their back court sucks outside of Green and Mills and that both of those guys needed to be at least knocked down a peg.


That's how this team's offense is built, at least the starters: Kawhi-ISO, Kawhi-Postup, LMA-Postup... we just can't give up 70 points at the half and pretend to win many games, tbh...

Yes, and so it's entirely too depended on two scorers, one of which is naturally inconsistent and the other is inconsistent against LAC. They need a third scorer to balance that out. And the D wouldn't be so bad if the offense wasn't. That one affects the other is almost universal to sports. It's like in the NFL when the offense keeps turning the ball over inside their 20. You can't blame the defense for giving up a bunch of points if they're constantly put in poor position by their offense.

[ElNono]

You're trying to put it back in the way, but no. They didn't give Dedmon anything until after they committed to keeping Manu.

You don't know that, or what was promised to who. Neither do I for that matter.


There's no period there. Manu shouldn't have been re-sign at all, not just re-signed for that much.

Well, that's a different story altogether. But you *were* bitching about the $14m he's making. Fact remains that once the *Spurs* decided Manu was going to get paid with cap space, how *much* he was going to get paid was immaterial. That was my argument when I replied to your post.

Now, you can opine the Spurs screwed up, that's your opinion, respectable, tbh.


Yes, and so it's entirely too depended on two scorers, one of which is naturally inconsistent and the other is inconsistent against LAC. They need a third scorer to balance that out. And the D wouldn't be so bad if the offense wasn't. That one affects the other is almost universal to sports. It's like in the NFL when the offense keeps turning the ball over inside their 20. You can't blame the defense for giving up a bunch of points if they're constantly put in poor position by their offense.

I'm not even worried here. We're going to have bad shooting nights and lose games here or there. There was more that just bad perimeter D in this game though.

That said, there's gotta be acceptance that this is how the Spurs decided to make a run for a championship this season: we're primarily an ISO team, and we're going to need a much better effort defensively if we want to reach the promised land. But it's still early.

[Keepin' it real]

Tonight they lacked a first option.

[Kawhitstorm]

It's looking an awful lot like Manu's $5.6-Million cap hold could've been used on something better, though, and that's what's so concerning. The team needed to upgrade the back court so badly, which was what I was saying in the off-season and people instead turned it into "Chinook wanted to start West".

They could have had their cake & ate it too. Doc gave Austin/Crawford 40 mill contract then signed Felton/Bass/Speight for the fuckin' vet minimum.

PATFO should have rolled out the red carpet for Felton knowing that Porker was done but they couldn't even get Bass to sign who is now rotting on the Cripples bench.:rolleyes

[Chinook]

You don't know that, or what was promised to who. Neither do I for that matter.

Yes, we do know. This is a case where the order of contracts mattered. The Spurs and Dedmon agreed to a deal with that structure, but had they not known they were going to use Manu's hold, it wasn't going to specifically be the RE. It wasn't reported as such, if you recall.


Well, that's a different story altogether. But you *were* bitching about the $14m he's making. Fact remains that once the *Spurs* decided Manu was going to get paid with cap space, how *much* he was going to get paid was immaterial. That was my argument when I replied to your post.

This is actually what I said initially:


It's looking an awful lot like Manu's $5.6-Million cap hold could've been used on something better, though, and that's what's so concerning. The team needed to upgrade the back court so badly, which was what I was saying in the off-season and people instead turned it into "Chinook wanted to start West".

So no, I was complaining about Manu's cap hold before I started talking about his salary. The concerning thing is that he's not playing like he's worth his cap hold. In fact, he's not playing like he's better than guys making so much less than his $14 Million. If he were playing like a $7-Million player, that would be fine. But he's playing like a min-contract guy instead.


Now, you can opine the Spurs screwed up, that's your opinion, respectable, tbh.

Yes, in so far as this is always just opinion. However, yeah, it's hard to justify Manu is anything but a negative so far. He's third on in the rotation in USG% despite being in the bottom half in almost every advanced stat. And that's on a 5-2 team.


I'm not even worried here. We're going to have bad shooting nights and lose games here or there. There was more that just bad perimeter D in this game though.

Obviously, but that was the main problem. The Spurs aren't going to be perfect swapping out Anderson/Simmons for Green. But they'll be more than good enough.


That said, there's gotta be acceptance that this is how the Spurs decided to make a run for a championship this season: we're primarily an ISO team, and we're going to need a much better effort defensively if we want to reach the promised land. But it's still early

This is true, and they need another scorer to fix these issues. Because when you're an ISO team, you aren't going to make shots for others consistently. So your bucket-getters have to perform. Only way to deal with having off bucket-getters is to have more.

[Chinook]

They could have had their cake & ate it too. Doc gave Austin/Crawford 40 mill contract then signed Felton/Bass/Speight for the fuckin' vet minimum.

PATFO should have rolled out the red carpet for Felton knowing that Porker was done but they couldn't even get Bass to sign who is now rotting on the Cripples bench.:rolleyes

Nope. They needed to actually spend the $20 Million or so they had on the best guards they could get. They shouldn't have thought Murray and Simmons were going to make up for running out a decrepit duo for $30 Million.

[Kawhitstorm]

Nope. They needed to actually spend the $20 Million or so they had on the best guards they could get. They shouldn't have thought Murray and Simmons were going to make up for running out a decrepit duo for $30 Million.

It was a given Manu was going to get his back-pay but even then they could have still signed Felton by doubling his pay & allowed him to stay in Texas while not paying state taxes. Danny is also Felton's buddy so I'm pretty sure they could have signed him & offered him a bigger role than the Cripples.

He played WestBrick better than Porker/Patty did in the postseason so it was obvious he would be an upgrade.:wakeup

OmUDx4efuAk

[ElNono]

Yes, we do know. This is a case where the order of contracts mattered. The Spurs and Dedmon agreed to a deal with that structure, but had they not known they were going to use Manu's hold, it wasn't going to specifically be the RE. It wasn't reported as such, if you recall.

IIRC, the only info we had about Dedmon was that the Spurs signed him with the RE, period. I'm fairly sure that's how we knew that Manu wasn't getting resigned with the RE... as you were advocating in the offseason. Then again, you were way more active than me during the offseason chatter, so I'm probably wrong on this and I'll gladly take your word for it.


This is actually what I said initially:

So no, I was complaining about Manu's cap hold before I started talking about his salary. The concerning thing is that he's not playing like he's worth his cap hold. In fact, he's not playing like he's better than guys making so much less than his $14 Million. If he were playing like a $7-Million player, that would be fine. But he's playing like a min-contract guy instead.

And I didn't say a peep about how much he made until you actually brought it up, here...

Yeah, Manu is making $14 Million to cater to guys on rookie and min deals. But he's looking bad as those guys. That's a problem with him, not the rest of the roster. The Spurs needed to spend their cap carefully last summer, but they sort of pissed it away.

This is where I responded about the $14m. We both know that once the Spurs decided they were signing him up with cap space, how much he was signed for didn't really matter. We're way past the cap hold argument at that point.

But I understand better what you were trying to say now, so that's fine. You think he shouldn't have been brought back, that's a fair opinion, regardless if I agree or not with it.


Yes, in so far as this is always just opinion. However, yeah, it's hard to justify Manu is anything but a negative so far. He's third on in the rotation in USG% despite being in the bottom half in almost every advanced stat. And that's on a 5-2 team.

I think he was above average or better in 3 out of the 6 games he played. He was between bad and really bad in the other 3 though. I mean, he's averaging 21 mpg, but I think that has to do with the lack of Danny and now TP, than anything else. For example, I don't think he plays tonight if Danny is available. Realistically, for a 39 year old, I though he's played with more passion than a lot of younger guys, even if not everything has always worked for the better.

What's a bit more disconcerting to me is that nobody else seems to be picking up the slack on a consistent basis. Patty and Simms have had their peaks here or there, but not consistently enough. I thought this season was going to be more of Manu going for those 15mpg Harlem is talking about, while naturally Simms, Kyle or Patty making him expendable, but I haven't seen it yet, and that's kinda scary. Makes you wonder if the Spurs are going to reach for Kevin Martin all over again.



Obviously, but that was the main problem. The Spurs aren't going to be perfect swapping out Anderson/Simmons for Green. But they'll be more than good enough.

This is true, and they need another scorer to fix these issues. Because when you're an ISO team, you aren't going to make shots for others consistently. So your bucket-getters have to perform. Only way to deal with having off bucket-getters is to have more.

That's why I'm a bit averse of moving Pau out of the starting lineup. It's a conundrum, but the dropoff on offense, as this team is built right now, from Pau to Dedmon is pretty darned big.

The worst part is that we both know Tony and Manu are not going anywhere, and neither Kyle or Simms are going to fetch you much with their contracts. So we're going to have to make it work this way.

We'll see what happens once Danny comes back.

[YGWHI]

LA's offense has been the least of our problems tonight.

Agreed. His defense was the real issue, Blake took LMA to school in every possession.


Also LMA has easily outplayed Kawhi tonight while matched up with Blake
Stop kidding :lol

795077754647670789

[YGWHI]

Nah. At worst, it suggests the team will be match-up dependent. If LMA has a good match-up, he'll dominate.
I wonder which match-up against elite bigs is good for him...Because he looked so bad against Cousins and Blake.

[TheGreatYacht]

I wonder which match-up against elite bigs is good for him...Because he looked so bad against Cousins and Blake.
Looked great against Raymond, faggot

[YGWHI]

Looked great against Raymond, faggot

I said ELITE bigs, troll.

[spursistan]

Parker falling off a cliff has completely scuppered PATFO plan/vision as to how this team would look like in 2017. I would still argue they wouldn’t have given him that money in the extension if they knew this what would become of him 3 years later.

They had imagined Tony –being the youngest of member of the old Big 3 --to be a nice third wheel (13-15 ppg.) in new Big 3 formed of Kawhi and the Free Agent Big they would chase in 2015 offseason. In nights like yesterday, you needed something close to a vintage TP as a safety valve scoring option (see the Detroit/Cavs game last season) to keep you in the game and chip away at the Clips lead when their shots stopped falling for moment in the 2nd/3rd Q..

For the past two seasons we just have been lacking that option in our backcourt that--when needed- could consistently get you buckets from the dribble drive and FT line -- and it is maybe a costly thing vs other contenders if kawhi/LMA aren't balling at the same time as in the season opener vs GSW..

[spursistan]

^^ I don't think this team will beat the Clippers or GSW if none of Parker/Mills/Manu is providing +10 ppg in the series..We know better than bank on Softridge to give you an efficient 24/12 in a 2nd round playoff series..

[Chinook]

IIRC, the only info we had about Dedmon was that the Spurs signed him with the RE, period. I'm fairly sure that's how we knew that Manu wasn't getting resigned with the RE... as you were advocating in the offseason. Then again, you were way more active than me during the offseason chatter, so I'm probably wrong on this and I'll gladly take your word for it.

This is what was actually reported:


751067206977478656

So yeah, we didn't know it was for the RE. That was the assumption, but the Spurs could've still signed Manu with it and just given $3 Million in cap to Dedmon. If you recall, the same possibility existed with Beli's contract three years ago, except it was the RE and MLE instead of RE and cap space.


That's why I'm a bit averse of moving Pau out of the starting lineup. It's a conundrum, but the dropoff on offense, as this team is built right now, from Pau to Dedmon is pretty darned big.

It wouldn't be as big if the team had a PG who could still run the PnR effectively. Dedmon could probably average 12ppg in that case. Pau would still be better off the bench, as that unit really needs buckets with Anderson being bad and Simmons being inconsistent.


The worst part is that we both know Tony and Manu are not going anywhere, and neither Kyle or Simms are going to fetch you much with their contracts. So we're going to have to make it work this way.

I do wonder if Pop tries to make a move. On one hand, it would be from a position of short-sighted weakness, but on the other hand, if anything is true about the LMA rumors, then it seems like they either have to make the move for a guard or move on from him. There's no point in pissing away one of these last two years.

[SAGirl]

LmA is a good scorer TBH... Now if the team's offense doesn't take advantage of everyone in a way that they are involved making each other better that is a problem. They have scorers... heck last night they started Patty who has been on fire. They are not generating good looks for all their guys in a consistent fashion. Usually it's the stars that help teammates be better... and when you have several elite players together (Pau/LMA/Kawhi) they should be difficult to defend all at once, leaving a 3 pt shooter with a good look or one of the guys who can burn you, to burn you.

Maybe the point is they don't have quality guard play, an issue they have suffered from the past couple of years and one that was not addressed.

[Fireball]

this forum has much more options ... so STOP STARTING GAME THREADS !!!

[SuperCam]

this team lacks an alpha first option tbh

[TD 21]

Nah, they lack the same thing they have for 2+ seasons and that's a lead play maker. It's primarily why they've been terrible versus elite teams and haven't been legit contenders since then.

Still, some of this has to fall on Leonard. He's been their clear best player from '15 on and he's played poorly in too many of these games.

[skinsfan1]

Not impressed with Gasol at all

[skulls138]

The offense should go through LMA more often. I hate to reward a guy that doesnt hustle and do enough of the dirty work, Im much more of a Kawhi fan in that regard, but if we dont utilize LMA enough were not going to get the benefits of him and he is a good scorer. Post him up more and have him drive and score or drive and kick or just get to the free throw line. Hes a big man that can shoot free throws but doesnt get to the line! Huh?

Its Kawhis team but LMA should take charge more. Battle for position down low and demand the ball and make a decisive move.

[ElNono]

This is what was actually reported:

So yeah, we didn't know it was for the RE. That was the assumption, but the Spurs could've still signed Manu with it and just given $3 Million in cap to Dedmon. If you recall, the same possibility existed with Beli's contract three years ago, except it was the RE and MLE instead of RE and cap space.

But it was the assumption (which turned out to be right) because the Spurs didn't really have $3m in actual free cap space then. They could've dropped the 5.5M in Manu's cap hold to make room, but Manu had a juicy offer and PATFO really was intent in keeping him. So ultimately, the plan was to keep Manu after losing TD to retirement, and signing Dedmon could only be done with the exception, because they didn't really have the cap space to do it without some maneuvering.



It wouldn't be as big if the team had a PG who could still run the PnR effectively. Dedmon could probably average 12ppg in that case. Pau would still be better off the bench, as that unit really needs buckets with Anderson being bad and Simmons being inconsistent.

I think both Tony and Manu can still run the PnR fairly effectively. I just don't think that's how we want our offense to run, at least in the starting lineup. I suppose Pop feels our advantage is in ISOs and postups, and running and shooting from the bench.


I do wonder if Pop tries to make a move. On one hand, it would be from a position of short-sighted weakness, but on the other hand, if anything is true about the LMA rumors, then it seems like they either have to make the move for a guard or move on from him. There's no point in pissing away one of these last two years.

Could be wrong, but I don't think LMA is going anywhere... realistically, Pop will give you a season or two before completely giving up on talent like that... he did with RJ, and realistically LMA has been a lot better than RJ...

[Obstructed_View]

The thread title is misworded. It should read, "This team's second option lacks consistency."

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The thread title is misworded. It should read, "This team's second option lacks consistency."

You're absolutely right

[Obstructed_View]

Sucks that the post-Duncan era starts with Gasol and Aldridge coming into the season with the attitude that they'll just play their way into shape.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Sucks that the post-Duncan era starts with Gasol and Aldridge coming into the season with the attitude that they'll just play their way into shape.

Hunger is one hell of a tool to have when going for a title. Kawhi has it, not sure Gasol/Aldridge do. I fee like Aldridge's personality is more of a Carmelo Anthony type in that he just wants to be the top dog but winning a title isn't at the top of his list. He's good with making good money and just taking most of the shots. Gasol has already won titles, this is just a chance to play for the Spurs.

Duncan always had it, even with one knee you could during the OKC series he wanted so badly to play well in that game 6. No matter the type of season the Spurs had he always looked the most upset when the Spurs got eliminated. I know Gasol just got here and Aldridge has only been here one season but I never saw that fire from Aldridge last year.

[Obstructed_View]

Hunger is one hell of a tool to have when going for a title. Kawhi has it, not sure Gasol/Aldridge do. I fee like Aldridge's personality is more of a Carmelo Anthony type in that he just wants to be the top dog but winning a title isn't at the top of his list. He's good with making good money and just taking most of the shots. Gasol has already won titles, this is just a chance to play for the Spurs.

Duncan always had it, even with one knee you could during the OKC series he wanted so badly to play well in that game 6. No matter the type of season the Spurs had he always looked the most upset when the Spurs got eliminated. I know Gasol just got here and Aldridge has only been here one season but I never saw that fire from Aldridge last year.

At least I have some confidence that Gasol knows that he has to ratchet it up a notch for the postseason. At his age he might be pacing himself, and I'm okay with that.

[Kawhitstorm]

Looked great against Raymond, faggot

6'6" Gaymond is a BIG?:lmao

[Kawhitstorm]

Hunger is one hell of a tool to have when going for a title. Kawhi has it, not sure Gasol/Aldridge do. I fee like Aldridge's personality is more of a Carmelo Anthony type in that he just wants to be the top dog but winning a title isn't at the top of his list. He's good with making good money and just taking most of the shots.

Carmelo actually enjoys playing the game, Softridge is talented but doesn't have a passion for the game similar to Joe Johnson.:lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Nah, they lack the same thing they have for 2+ seasons and that's a lead play maker. It's primarily why they've been terrible versus elite teams and haven't been legit contenders since then.

Still, some of this has to fall on Leonard. He's been their clear best player from '15 on and he's played poorly in too many of these games.

You're acting like Kawhi disappear like 2011 Finals LeBron in the past two postseason.:lol

In 2015, Doc loaded up on him after Gm 3 & his teammates couldn't make an outside shot (see LeBron vs. Celtics, 2010)

Against OKC, he played Durant even until Gm 6 which got out of hand when Kawhi went to the bench & he outplayed WestBrick for the duration of the series.

Having more than one non-shooter especially guards/wings (:rolleyesPorker/Fat Head:rolleyes) are a terrible fit for point-forwards which is why LeBron shot 39% against the same Thibs defense Doc implements against Kawhi when Shumpert/Mozgov/Tristan were starting against the Bulls in the 2015 postseason. Durant left WestBrick/Roberson b/c he was tired of teams ignoring them to load up on him when he was isolating.

There is a reason GM LeBron agreed to take a chance on JR Smith who has made more 3s than anyone in HISTORY before turning 30 & didn't hesitate to ship out Wiggins for Love whom he forced into a Ryan Anderson role just like he forced Bosh into a Robert Horry role. He saw in the 2011 Finals that teams will load up by completely ignoring non-shooters which is when he forced Battier into playing PF & fell in love w/ Mike Miller.:lol

[NameLess Scrub]

The offense should go through LMA more often. I hate to reward a guy that doesnt hustle and do enough of the dirty work, Im much more of a Kawhi fan in that regard, but if we dont utilize LMA enough were not going to get the benefits of him and he is a good scorer. Post him up more and have him drive and score or drive and kick or just get to the free throw line. Hes a big man that can shoot free throws but doesnt get to the line! Huh?

Its Kawhis team but LMA should take charge more. Battle for position down low and demand the ball and make a decisive move.

I think, this.

He's going Shaqmarcus Fatdridge on the Spurs. But in any case, he needs to have a more consistent offensive role.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

You're acting like Kawhi disappear like 2011 Finals LeBron in the past two postseason.:lol

In 2015, Doc loaded up on him after Gm 3 & his teammates couldn't make an outside shot (see LeBron vs. Celtics, 2010)

Against OKC, he played Durant even until Gm 6 which got out of hand when Kawhi went to the bench & he outplayed WestBrick for the duration of the series.

Having more than one non-shooter especially guards/wings (:rolleyesPorker/Fat Head:rolleyes) are a terrible fit for point-forwards which is why LeBron shot 39% against the same Thibs defense Doc implements against Kawhi when Shumpert/Mozgov/Tristan were starting against the Bulls in the 2015 postseason. Durant left WestBrick/Roberson b/c he was tired of teams ignoring them to load up on him when he was isolating.

There is a reason GM LeBron agreed to take a chance on JR Smith who has made more 3s than anyone in HISTORY before turning 30 & didn't hesitate to ship out Wiggins for Love whom he forced into a Ryan Anderson role just like he forced Bosh into a Robert Horry role. He saw in the 2011 Finals that teams will load up by completely ignoring non-shooters which is when he forced Battier into playing PF & fell in love w/ Mike Miller.:lol

This is spot on. You can't have a predominantly iso offense with 2 non shooters on the floor. You can barely scrape it with one, but two are too much. Spurs are going to play the same type of offense because this is the personnel and they'll win a lot of games again, but against the better teams this wouldn't work in a 7 game series. Even Jordan needed a lot of shooters around him and Kawhi's far from that level.

Luckily the Spurs have Danny and Patty who could theoretically fit perfectly what would be needed from the backcourt - they don't need great talent there, but a good fit. A wing 3 and D player who can spare Kawhi from time to time and a sharp shooting PG is exactly what they'd need. How the bench would work, whether Parker could accept such a role and so on, is what Pop needs to figure out during the season, because the way the team is constructed significant trades are nearly impossible this season.

[coachmac87]

There are many factors on why the team has stuggled to start the season. Not having your starting backcourt doesn't help, the brutal traveling schedule, and fitting in other pieces that are new to the team and playing with line ups we won't ever see when it matters..bottom line we've seen the ceiling and floor of this team in 7 games.

The Spurs 3rd best offensive player IMO is Pau and it's really not close...but instead of making him an offensive focal point he's getting his looks as they come. He's done great shooting the ball but Spurs really could use a boost from his play in the
post..he can draw fouls and double teams and the more he's involved on offense the better he is on defense.

[MaNu4Tres]

There are many factors on why the team has stuggled to start the season. Not having your starting backcourt doesn't help, the brutal traveling schedule, and fitting in other pieces that are new to the team and playing with line ups we won't ever see when it matters..bottom line we've seen the ceiling and floor of this team in 7 games.

The Spurs 3rd best offensive player IMO is Pau and it's really not close...but instead of making him an offensive focal point he's getting his looks as they come. He's done great shooting the ball but Spurs really could use a boost from his play in the
post..he can draw fouls and double teams and the more he's involved on offense the better he is on defense.

You're asking to lose if you want Pau to get more touches in the post. In fact, post play has become very overrated and is a very inefficient aspect in an offense.

So far this year, Pau is 4 for 13 in post play opportunities, shooting a whopping 31% from plays in the post -- which equals out to .71 PPP ( not good). Last year in Chicago? He shot 80 for 205 in post plays, shooting 40%. That is not good at all. So far this year he's only drawing a foul 13% of the time in such scenarios. If Spurs were to go to him more in the post, the Spurs would suffer because he's terribly inefficient and teams don't have to double -- so weakside stays out on their man. Hardly anyone in the league is worthy of a double team in the post except for maybe 3 players ( and that's only if they get hot).

Hell they don't even double Aldridge, for good reason. His post play is very pedestrian converting at a 48% clip in post plays shooting 11 for 23. That's not great, or good enough to warrant substantial amount of volume. It's also not good enough to command double teams. If it's not good enough to command double teams, then its a play that only really has one option, and that is for Aldridge to create over a decent contest because he doesn't have the foot speed to face his man up and take his guy off the dribble.

That is why initiated offense from the perimeter is so much more valuable, because there's several efficient options that can be manufactured out of it.

Post play is very overrated and very inefficient for the most part.

[Joseph Kony]

LMA was pretty shaky to begin last season was an automatic 20/9 by the end of the season, give him some time, everyone's always panicking after every fucking game :lol

[coachmac87]

You're asking to lose if you want Pau to get more touches in the post. In fact, post play has become very overrated and is a very inefficient aspect in an offense.

So far this year, Pau is 4 for 13 in post play opportunities, shooting a whopping 31% from plays in the post -- which equals out to .71 PPP ( not good). Last year in Chicago? He shot 80 for 205 in post plays, shooting 40%. That is not good at all. So far this year he's only drawing a foul 13% of the time in such scenarios. If Spurs were to go to him more in the post, the Spurs would suffer because he's terribly inefficient and teams don't have to double -- so weakside stays out on their man. Hardly anyone in the league is worthy of a double team in the post except for maybe 3 players ( and that's only if they get hot).

Hell they don't even double Aldridge, for good reason. His post play is very pedestrian converting at a 48% clip in post plays shooting 11 for 23. That's not great, or good enough to warrant substantial amount of volume. It's also not good enough to command double teams. If it's not good enough to command double teams, then its a play that only really has one option, and that is for Aldridge to create over a decent contest because he doesn't have the foot speed to face his man up and take his guy off the dribble.

That is why initiated offense from the perimeter is so much more valuable, because there's several efficient options that can be manufactured out of it.

Post play is very overrated and very inefficient for the most part.

You're selling Gasol extremely short...

He hadn't had consistent looks..you're stats say he's 4-13 in the post? That's less than 2 a game and you can expect inconsistent play if you're getting those looks. He needs more opportunities in the post whether he scores or passes. He's not a black hole like LMA is. He was an All-Star player last year and it wasn't because of his defense by any means..he's extremely skilled and can contribute many ways offensively. We didn't pay him 14m to average 9pts a game

[Chinook]

The issue with making Pau the third option is that it forces the Spurs to play very big for large chunks of the game. Not all points are created equal, and having them come from the back court instead would be ideal.

That said, post play is anything but dead. Low-block play might be. But there's been quite the resurgence of big-man paint play over the last couple of years.

[coachmac87]

This isn't about the team lacking a 2nd threat. It's about finding a consistent 3rd is it Patty or Pau?

[coachmac87]

I think when playoff time comes LMA or Pau must be on court at all times playing along side Dedmond..if foul trouble occurs that's where Lee comes into play

[MaNu4Tres]

You're selling Gasol extremely short...

He hadn't had consistent looks..you're stats say he's 4-13 in the post? That's less than 2 a game and you can expect inconsistent play if you're getting those looks. He needs more opportunities in the post whether he scores or passes. He's not a black hole like LMA is. He was an All-Star player last year and it wasn't because of his defense by any means..he's extremely skilled and can contribute many ways offensively. We didn't pay him 14m to average 9pts a game

Not really. I'm bringing facts to the table. Gasol isn't efficient in the post anymore. Hasn't been in years. He was voted an All-Star player last year because of his name and the incredibly high usage he got in Chicago, which he needed in order for his inefficient style of offense to boost his ppg to 16.

He won't get that usage in San Antonio, I said it from the get go. And even if there was usage for him to fill, he'd be a very inefficient option to go to. Those aren't just my stats, those are stats that anyone can look up.

The pick and pop long two is an inefficient style of offense as it is, and that is Gasols main source of offense these days that's somewhat respectable -- even if it's not a great shot for his team in the long run.

[MaNu4Tres]

The issue with making Pau the third option is that it forces the Spurs to play very big for large chunks of the game. Not all points are created equal, and having them come from the back court instead would be ideal.

That said, post play is anything but dead. Low-block play might be. But there's been quite the resurgence of big-man paint play over the last couple of years.

No one said post play is dead. Just saying that the style of offense is very inefficient compared to perimeter initiated offense. If you force Gasol more looks in the post, it won't benefit anything except for Gasols' points per game. Won't benefit the team or wins.

I brought up and proved how inefficient Gasol has been for the past 2 years in the post, and Coachmacs' best response to that is he made the All-Star team last year.

[coachmac87]

Not really. I'm bringing facts to the table. Gasol isn't efficient in the post anymore. Hasn't been in years. He was voted an All-Star player last year because of his name and the incredibly high usage he got in Chicago, which he needed in order for his inefficient style of offense to boost his ppg to 16.

He won't get that usage in San Antonio, I said it from the get go. And even if there was usage for him to fill, he'd be a very inefficient option to go to. Those aren't just my stats, those are stats that anyone can look up.

The pick and pop long two is an inefficient style of offense as it is, and that is Gasols main source of offense these days that's somewhat respectable -- even if it's not a great shot for his team in the long run.


The thread is talking about the 2nd option..well we all know who that is. LMA averaging 18-20ppg

The question is or problem is who's the 3rd? Patty Mills??? Gasol?? Simmons?? Lol

The most reliable IMO is Gasol..he can create from the post whether it's scoring, getting to the line or passing. He's extremely talented and we signed him for his offense and not his defense. He hasn't been involved at all so far and if he's just going to be a shooter then it's a terrible signing..

Gasol needs more looks and involvement in the offense..period

[MaNu4Tres]

The thread is talking about the 2nd option..well we all know who that is. LMA averaging 18-20ppg

The question is or problem is who's the 3rd? Patty Mills??? Gasol?? Simmons?? Lol

The most reliable IMO is Gasol..he can create from the post whether it's scoring, getting to the line or passing. He's extremely talented and we signed him for his offense and not his defense. He hasn't been involved at all so far and if he's just going to be a shooter then it's a terrible signing..

Gasol needs more looks and involvement in the offense..period


Spurs don't have one. It's a collective effort trying to manufacture the best shot possible outside of Kawhi and LA. Gasol is an equal to Patty, Danny, Manu, Parker, ect. Some nights it will be Patty, some nights it will be Danny, some nights it will be Manu, some night it may be Pau.

If you force things to Gasol to try to get only him going, it won't benefit anything other than just his points per game. He doesn't command double teams, and he's not effective in the post anymore. That's not subjective either.

The only times you want to force things Gasols way in the post is if he has an obvious mismatch through a cross match up or switch that lands a small wing or point guard defender on him.

[coachmac87]

I
Spurs don't have one. It's a collective effort trying to manufacture the best shot possible outside of Kawhi and LA. Gasol is an equal to Patty, Danny, Manu, Parker, ect. Some nights it will be Patty, some nights it will be Danny, some nights it will be Manu, some night it may be Pau.

If you force things to Gasol to try to get only him going, it won't benefit anything other than just his points per game. He doesn't command double teams, and he's not effective in the post anymore. That's not subjective either.

The only times you want to force things Gasols way in the post is if he has an obvious mismatch through a cross match up or switch that lands a small wing or point guard defender on him.

I disagree. If you force feed LMA only his ppg will improve.. Gasol is different...he's extremely skilled and he's capable of scoring 20pts more consistent than anyone else not named Kawhi or LMA. Again you're selling Gasol short and the Spurs will be as well if they only want him to shoot 3 balls or pick and pops

[coachmac87]

Name another team that has 2 skilled bigs capable of averaging 15-20ppg in the league?

[LaMarcus Bryant]

I dunno. When he plays against anyone with any strength he consistently sucks.

This was true back in the Elite Eight against LSU when Baby Shaq Glenn Ben Davis held him totally in check in the post. Up until that point he had had a great tournament run.

[MaNu4Tres]

I

I disagree. If you force feed LMA only his ppg will improve.. Gasol is different...he's extremely skilled and he's capable of scoring 20pts more consistent than anyone else not named Kawhi or LMA. Again you're selling Gasol short and the Spurs will be as well if they only want him to shoot 3 balls or pick and pops

You can believe what you want to believe, but Gasol is a very inefficient option in the post these days, that is a fact that anyone can prove with a little research.

Alridge, is not an option I love in the post, but he's still significantly more effective than Gasol in the post at manufacturing buckets and fouls.

However, you're right about Gasol being capable of scoring 20, but it will take 25-30 shots to do that if they're all from the post. Not sure if that will help win games.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

At least I have some confidence that Gasol knows that he has to ratchet it up a notch for the postseason. At his age he might be pacing himself, and I'm okay with that.

This is where I'm at right now.

[coachmac87]

You can believe what you want to believe, but Gasol is a very inefficient option in the post these days, that is a fact that anyone can prove with a little research.

Alridge, is not an option I love in the post, but he's still significantly more effective than Gasol in the post at manufacturing buckets and fouls.

However, you're right about Gasol being capable of scoring 20, but it will take 25-30 shots to do that if they're all from the post. Not sure if that will help win games.

Gasol needs more touches down low period. Now how much more is up for debate. We need more ways to create buckets and easy ones at that. You say you don't like Gasol getting touches on the block but I think it could be almost reliable if not more than running PNR with Manu or Patty.

I'm just trying to find ways to get better looks and more people involved. The more involved Pau the better he will be. Spurs didn't sign him to be a 9/6 guy tbh..maybe the spacing of the starting unit with Anderson instead of Green hurts the post play. Spurs strength as a team is their size offensively...the more we impose our will and get teams in foul trouble the rest will follow.

[MaNu4Tres]

Gasol needs more touches down low period. Now how much more is up for debate. We need more ways to create buckets and easy ones at that. You say you don't like Gasol getting touches on the block but I think it could be almost reliable if not more than running PNR with Manu or Patty.

I'm just trying to find ways to get better looks and more people involved. The more involved Pau the better he will be. Spurs didn't sign him to be a 9/6 guy tbh..maybe the spacing of the starting unit with Anderson instead of Green hurts the post play. Spurs strength as a team is their size offensively...the more we impose our will and get teams in foul trouble the rest will follow.

It's not just this year, Gasol was 80 for 205 in post plays with the Bulls a year ago and only drawing fouls 11% of the time. That's shooting 40% in such scenarios. If you think that's effective or efficient that's your choice. I just disagree.

[coachmac87]

It's not just this year, Gasol was 80 for 205 in post plays with the Bulls a year ago and only drawing fouls 11% of the time. That's shooting 40% in such scenarios. If you think that's effective or efficient that's your choice. I just disagree.

Ok well this thread is asking the question of a consistent 2nd threat. I feel we have that in LMA..it's more about the 3rd option IMO. I feel that's where Gasol comes into play..he needs to more involved and Spues can start down low. You can talk about last year numbers with the Bulls that's fine...But who's going to provide most as our 3rd option? Pau, Patty, Parker, Green? Who?

My answer is Pau. What's yours?

[Chinook]

I wonder if Jeff Teague is available. Dude's been awful in Indy, and I think the Spurs actually have the contracts to make it work. Dude in the very least can do some of the things Tony used to be able to do.

[MaNu4Tres]

Ok well this thread is asking the question of a consistent 2nd threat. I feel we have that in LMA..it's more about the 3rd option IMO. I feel that's where Gasol comes into play..he needs to more involved and Spues can start down low. You can talk about last year numbers with the Bulls that's fine...But who's going to provide most as our 3rd option? Pau, Patty, Parker, Green? Who?

My answer is Pau. What's yours?

The team. That's my answer.

There's not a player outside of Kawhi/Aldridge that's good enough in ISOs or in the post to funnel volume to. The third option opportunities need to be manufactured from team inspired basketball. Some nights it will be Patty, some Danny, some Pau, some nights Manu, some nights Dedmon.

[coachmac87]

The team. That's my answer.

There's not a player outside of Kawhi/Aldridge that's good enough in ISOs or in the post to funnel volume to. The third option opportunities need to be manufactured from team inspired basketball. Some nights it will be Patty, some Danny, some Pau, some nights Manu, some nights Dedmon.

Welp..that's not the way it's supposed to be and it could be the down fall if somebody doesn't emerge..just look around the league and the top teams have consistent 3rd options to run offense through.

Cavs-Love
Clippers-Reddick
Warriors-Thompson
Raptors-Valuncunis

The Spurs? I guess it's the bench? Which won't be good enough. We do have a skilled 7ft who averaged almost 18ppg but I gues 9pts will do. Maybe I'm asking for too much? But we didn't sign him to be a 9/6 guy that for sure I know.

[TheDoctor]

I wonder if Jeff Teague is available. Dude's been awful in Indy, and I think the Spurs actually have the contracts to make it work. Dude in the very least can do some of the things Tony used to be able to do.

After Kawhi, Larry Legend will never negotiate with PATFO again.

All on him tho' :lol

[Chinook]

After Kawhi, Larry Legend will never negotiate with PATFO again.

All on him tho' :lol

I'm sure about that. Bird got EoY for that season in large part because of the Hill trade.

[spursistan]

Carmelo actually enjoys playing the game, Softridge is talented but doesn't have a passion for the game similar to Joe Johnson.:lol

Dude was torn between joining Spurs or Suns :lol.. Repeat: this nigga was dithering on the decision whether to play for/alongside Pop/TD/Kawhi/Manu or the joke of franchise Phoenix been for the past half decade. If that didn't raise a red flag for you from the beginning about his mentlity, nothing will.

I don't think he will be a Spur beyond this contract unless they make it back to the Finals..

[MaNu4Tres]

Welp..that's not the way it's supposed to be and it could be the down fall if somebody doesn't emerge..just look around the league and the top teams have consistent 3rd options to run offense through.

Cavs-Love
Clippers-Reddick
Warriors-Thompson
Raptors-Valuncunis

The Spurs? I guess it's the bench? Which won't be good enough. We do have a skilled 7ft who averaged almost 18ppg but I gues 9pts will do. Maybe I'm asking for too much? But we didn't sign him to be a 9/6 guy that for sure I know.

That is tied to minutes too.

If you want Gasol to be the third option then you'd have to not only sacrifice efficiency on offense as you'd force him touches in the post ( something he's very inefficient at), but you'd have to sacrifice defense as Dedmon would be demoted significantly in minutes played. Not to mention, you'd be losing the one effective roller in PnRs from the rotation in Dedmon to a degree. I honestly think Dedmon needs more minutes with the starters if possible. It would benefit the offense more than Gasol -- especially when Danny gets back.

All those players you mentioned as third options play over 30 minutes. Gasol has the same role as Duncan did last year, getting 23-25 minutes -- with a lot of those being with Kawhi/Alridge who have their touches optimized when they're on the court.

[coachmac87]

That is tied to minutes too.

If you want Gasol to be the third option then you'd have to not only sacrifice efficiency on offense, but you'd have to sacrifice defense as Dedmon would be demoted significantly in minutes played. All those players you mentioned as third options play over 30 minutes.


Well I'm also in the camp of Gasol coming off the bench...

IMO when it matters most come playoffs Gasol or LMA should be on the court at all times..playing along with Dedmond...Lee fill in spots with foul trouble etc.

[Kawhitstorm]

I wonder if Jeff Teague is available. Dude's been awful in Indy, and I think the Spurs actually have the contracts to make it work. Dude in the very least can do some of the things Tony used to be able to do.

Teague isn't going to move the needle as the future starting PG. Dude has the same "dribble, dribble" tendencies as Porker & he's a terrible defender. He can penetrate & shoot floaters better than your average PG but he's going to age terrible b/c his game is dependent on speed. He also wouldn't be a good fit w/ Kawhi b/c he's a mediocre 3 point shooter & likes to hog the ball.

He's being exposed in Indy playing on a team that runs an ISO offense where he's either playing off the ball or having to beat a defender 1-on-1 (not his game). He is struggling to get into the paint w/o those Horford/Millsap screens which used to create mismatches. Maybe he could run PnR w/ Softridge but that's about it as far as high quality stuff.

Darren Collison would be a better fit as he's a better shooter/finisher & could have been targeted as Patty's replacement if it wasn't for his DMV incident.

[sasaint]

Dude was torn between joining Spurs or Suns :lol.. Repeat: this nigga was dithering on the decision whether to play for/alongside Pop/TD/Kawhi/Manu or the joke of franchise Phoenix been for the past half decade. If that didn't raise a red flag for you from the beginning about his mentlity, nothing will.

I don't think he will be a Spur beyond this contract unless they make it back to the Finals..

Plenty of us were not in favor of the signing even before Phoenix emerged as a "serious" contender. This was, indeed, a serious red flag! :tu

[Kawhitstorm]

No one said post play is dead. Just saying that the style of offense is very inefficient compared to perimeter initiated offense. If you force Gasol more looks in the post, it won't benefit anything except for Gasols' points per game. Won't benefit the team or wins.

I brought up and proved how inefficient Gasol has been for the past 2 years in the post, and Coachmacs' best response to that is he made the All-Star team last year.

Pau's best use is as a stretch 5 like the Cavs use Love, if teams put a small guy on him then he can post-up or pound them on the offensive glass.

Last season, Pau was getting most of his points via face-ups/PnP rather than post-ups. Teams used to put their 4s on him to limit his PnP & face-up drives but now he has to be guarded by 5s so he can get wide open jumpers at will unless someone like Draymond is playing the 5.

[Kawhitstorm]

Dude was torn between joining Spurs or Suns :lol.. Repeat: this nigga was dithering on the decision whether to play for/alongside Pop/TD/Kawhi/Manu or the joke of franchise Phoenix been for the past half decade. If that didn't raise a red flag for you from the beginning about his mentlity, nothing will..

Joe Johnson requested that the 62 win Suns not match his offer sheet from the Hawks b/c he wanted to be the "star player" on a lotto team.:lol

[sasaint]

Joe Johnson requested that the 62 win Suns not match his offer sheet from the Hawks b/c he wanted to be the "star player" on a lotto team.:lol

I have no idea where you get these anecdotes, but they are priceless! JJ - :lol

[TD 21]

You're acting like Kawhi disappear like 2011 Finals LeBron in the past two postseason.:lol

In 2015, Doc loaded up on him after Gm 3 & his teammates couldn't make an outside shot (see LeBron vs. Celtics, 2010)

Against OKC, he played Durant even until Gm 6 which got out of hand when Kawhi went to the bench & he outplayed WestBrick for the duration of the series.

Having more than one non-shooter especially guards/wings (:rolleyesPorker/Fat Head:rolleyes) are a terrible fit for point-forwards which is why LeBron shot 39% against the same Thibs defense Doc implements against Kawhi when Shumpert/Mozgov/Tristan were starting against the Bulls in the 2015 postseason. Durant left WestBrick/Roberson b/c he was tired of teams ignoring them to load up on him when he was isolating.

There is a reason GM LeBron agreed to take a chance on JR Smith who has made more 3s than anyone in HISTORY before turning 30 & didn't hesitate to ship out Wiggins for Love whom he forced into a Ryan Anderson role just like he forced Bosh into a Robert Horry role. He saw in the 2011 Finals that teams will load up by completely ignoring non-shooters which is when he forced Battier into playing PF & fell in love w/ Mike Miller.:lol

No, I'm saying winning a championship and Finals MVP as the second best player on an ensemble cast is great, but since he's become the undisputed best player on the team, he's often been disappointing against the elite in the regular season and in the playoffs, hasn't had a single put the team on your back and win a game/series they otherwise wouldn't have performance.

Even Aldridge, who's never been anointed a top 10, let alone 2 player, had a single Trail Blazers team as good as the '15 and '16 Spurs and is supposedly "soft" and a "choker", has one of the those playoff series ('14 WCQF) on his resume.

Sure, the past 2 and the current Spurs were and are too flawed to win a championship, but you can stop pretending they're Iverson's 76ers, McGrady's Magic, Garnett's Timberwolves, etc. I don't expect him to pull an '03 Duncan, but if he's going to get almost all of the praise when they win, then he damn sure needs to get some of the blame when they lose.

[Robz4000]

No, I'm saying winning a championship and Finals MVP as the second best player on an ensemble cast is great, but since he's become the undisputed best player on the team, he's often been disappointing against the elite in the regular season and in the playoffs, hasn't had a single put the team on your back and win a game/series they otherwise wouldn't have performance.

Even Aldridge, who's never been anointed a top 10, let alone 2 player, had a single Trail Blazers team as good as the '15 and '16 Spurs and is supposedly "soft" and a "choker", has one of the those playoff series ('14 WCQF) on his resume.

Sure, the past 2 and the current Spurs were and are too flawed to win a championship, but you can stop pretending they're Iverson's 76ers, McGrady's Magic, Garnett's Timberwolves, etc. I don't expect him to pull an '03 Duncan, but if he's going to get almost all of the praise when they win, then he damn sure needs to get some of the blame when they lose.

Spurs don't win in 2014 without Kawhi taking over in Games 3-5. If not for Lebron cramping, Spurs go down 0-2; they looked like the inferior team at that point. Then Leonard broke out and the Spurs dominated from there. That counts as a "put the team on your back" performance.

[Chinook]

He's being exposed in Indy playing on a team that runs an ISO offense where he's either playing off the ball or having to beat a defender 1-on-1 (not his game). He is struggling to get into the paint w/o those Horford/Millsap screens which used to create mismatches. Maybe he could run PnR w/ Softridge but that's about it as far as high quality stuff.

I'd be all over a guy who depends on the PnR, honestly. It's not just LMA that would benefit. Dedmon and Lee would also look really good having a guy next to them who could get them good looks, and they can both him Teague score. Ignoring the pouting angle for a second, Teague/Green/Leonard/Aldridge/Dedmon would be a great unit on both ends, because you don't just have Kawhi either dominating the ball or waiting for someone else to iso. Teague would get screens and be able to kick to open shooters, both of whom would hopefully be elite, or dump it down to the other big. That's the kind of offense you can build around, especially infused with Kawhiso plays that are no longer as easy to defend since they aren't as regular.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that depending on Leonard to go one-on-one and then countering with post-ups is not that hard to defend if you have the bigs to take away the paint. I'd like them to have a completely different type of offense mixed in there in the very least to prevent coaches from gearing up too strongly against Kawhi.

[MaNu4Tres]

I'd be all over a guy who depends on the PnR, honestly. It's not just LMA that would benefit. Dedmon and Lee would also look really good having a guy next to them who could get them good looks, and they can both him Teague score. Ignoring the pouting angle for a second, Teague/Green/Leonard/Aldridge/Dedmon would be a great unit on both ends, because you don't just have Kawhi either dominating the ball or waiting for someone else to iso. Teague would get screens and be able to kick to open shooters, both of whom would hopefully be elite, or dump it down to the other big. That's the kind of offense you can build around, especially infused with Kawhiso plays that are no longer as easy to defend since they aren't as regular.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that depending on Leonard to go one-on-one and then countering with post-ups is not that hard to defend if you have the bigs to take away the paint. I'd like them to have a completely different type of offense mixed in there in the very least to prevent coaches from gearing up too strongly against Kawhi.

Teague for who?

Spurs were interested this past summer but were outbid by the Pacers.

[YGWHI]

No, I'm saying winning a championship and Finals MVP as the second best player on an ensemble cast is great, but since he's become the undisputed best player on the team, he's often been disappointing against the elite in the regular season

-Kawhi averaged 28 ppg against OKC last regular season

-He was the main reason why the Spurs won the home game against Cavs last season, on the road he was 7-15 .429 3P% 7-8 FTs 6 rbs 2 asts 24 points

-In the two wins against the Clippers last season, he averaged 19.5 ppg in .50 FG%, and he didn't play in the loss in L.A.

-Sure, one of his home-game against GSW wasn't pretty but he was the only Spur playing well at the Oracle last season in the two games there

I would say he looked really good against elite last season.



and in the playoffs, hasn't had a single put the team on your back and win a game/series they otherwise wouldn't have performance.

If you think that the Spurs would have won game 3 against OKC in last playoffs without Kawhi taking over...

And if they wouldn't have stopped feeding him in game 5, .57 FG% 26 points, if they wouldn't have called those two P&Rs between Parker (4-12) and LMA (6-21) instead of going with him, the series would have changed.

Kawhi has improved every year in the postseason, he was horrible in the last 2 games of 2015 playoffs but his last playoffs were way better.

Except for his 3P%, he increased every offensive stat from the regular season to playoffs, ppg, apg, 2P%...

[Chinook]

Teague for who?

Spurs were interested this past summer but were outbid by the Pacers.

It looks like the Pacers are having buyer's remorse, so I don't think it would take a ton to get him, or least it won't if he doesn't look significantly better by the deadline. Anyway, Jeff makes $8.8 Million this season. So it would take $5.8 Million in salary to match him. Provided that no one would take Parker off the team's hands, a package like Mills/Anderson/Murray or Mills/Dedmon would be the idea.

[YGWHI]

Teague for who?

Spurs were interested this past summer but were outbid by the Pacers.

Where is Parker in this scenario? He won't be traded...Does he come off the bench with Teague as starting PG? It doesn't sound very realistic.

[MaNu4Tres]

It looks like the Pacers are having buyer's remorse, so I don't think it would take a ton to get him, or least it won't if he doesn't look significantly better by the deadline. Anyway, Jeff makes $8.8 Million this season. So it would take $5.8 Million in salary to match him. Provided that no one would take Parker off the team's hands, a package like Mills/Anderson/Murray or Mills/Dedmon would be the idea.

Parker, Murray, Anderson for Teague, Lavoy Allen & Glenn Robinson II.

[sasaint]

It looks like the Pacers are having buyer's remorse, so I don't think it would take a ton to get him, or least it won't if he doesn't look significantly better by the deadline. Anyway, Jeff makes $8.8 Million this season. So it would take $5.8 Million in salary to match him. Provided that no one would take Parker off the team's hands, a package like Mills/Anderson/Murray or Mills/Dedmon would be the idea.

I concede that the season is young and the sample size small, but Deadman and Mills have been easily two of the Spurs' best performers. Yet you would be willing to part with both for Jeff Teague? And then what? What further moves would you propose to replace Deadman and get some rim protection? I think you would be moving a couple of core pieces for a player who doesn't really move the needle. In fact the Spurs would be left with a much bigger hole in our bigs rotation. I personally value Patty more than Teague, so I would be chagrined to see Pop make either of your proposed deals.

If I am PATFO, Mills and Deadman are two of a bare handful of players I would definitely like to hang on to. Maybe a young guy or two will emerge by season's end... If the Spurs make it to 50 wins this season, that will be a great accomplishment in the first season of the post-Duncan era.

[sasaint]

Parker, Murray, Anderson for Teague, Lavoy Allen & Glenn Robinson II.

I do not think Parker is tradeable without sweetening the deal with a pick for the other team to swallow that "poison pill." The other alternative is to trade him to some team that has its own "untradeable" player.

[SAGirl]

I do not think Parker is tradeable without sweetening the deal with a pick for the other team to swallow that "poison pill." The other alternative is to trade him to some team that has its own "untradeable" player.
I thought the same, completely unrealistic trade that wouldn't happen specially after RC swindled Larry Legend in the 2011 draft. Getting Teague would require a useful rotation piece. Tony with his league worst PG fame, worst Spur rotation player for the season so far showing is going to require a sweetener to move. It was easier to move Richard Jefferson I think... on top of that he's been with nagging injuries to start.

The way Tiago and Boris Diaw, Heck the way Dworst is looking would raise the hair in my back in trading with the Spurs for Tony!!! Soon as he goes to a different situation he's going to look.... I don't even have the words to say...

[sasaint]

I thought the same, completely unrealistic trade that wouldn't happen specially after RC swindled Larry Legend in the 2011 draft. Getting Teague would require a useful rotation piece. Tony with his league worst PG fame, worst Spur rotation player for the season so far showing is going to require a sweetener to move. It was easier to move Richard Jefferson I think... on top of that he's been with nagging injuries to start.

The way Tiago and Boris Diaw, Heck the way Dworst is looking would raise the hair in my back in trading with the Spurs for Tony!!! Soon as he goes to a different situation he's going to look.... I don't even have the words to say...

Trouble is the Spurs just don't have many rotational pieces... :wow

[SAGirl]

Trouble is the Spurs just don't have many rotational pieces... :wow
None that they can spare. I mean the can spare their HOF veterans, but not if you are Pop. He's paying top dollar for those guys.

I am completely deflated about Pau, personally. Much as you have gone on about your disappointment with LMA, I am about to start disliking Pau. Incredibly skilled offensive big yes, nice passer, good shooter, but he's a traffic cone on defense and it bothers me.... It's one of those things where it does bother. Maybe he wasn't the right way to go in the off season. I hope to be wrong. I have been happy to be wrong about Lee for example, but I don't see it with Pau, yet.

I won't say anything about the young players they are all in different stages of development and in very cheap contracts and some are very young still. Some look better than others but Pop has said they are work in progress so that's that. I expect more of the veterans and the guys who have gotten paid $.

[Chinook]

If I am PATFO, Mills and Deadman are two of a bare handful of players I would definitely like to hang on to. Maybe a young guy or two will emerge by season's end... If the Spurs make it to 50 wins this season, that will be a great accomplishment in the first season of the post-Duncan era.

You're not going to be able to acquire players by holding onto all the guys you like. Now you can say Mills is better than Teague and be safe in your opinion. But if the Spurs are going to make any moves to add to their rotation, they aren't doing it by having sixth and seventh men on expiring being untouchable.

If the Spurs only care about winning 50 games, they can move a good chunk of their rotation and be safe in that regard. They don't need LMA, Mills or Dedmon to be slightly above average, in my opinion.

[Chinook]

I do not think Parker is tradeable without sweetening the deal with a pick for the other team to swallow that "poison pill." The other alternative is to trade him to some team that has its own "untradeable" player.

I think they'll be a ton of horrible contracts in 2018. Right now, though, I don't think anyone really sees one. Maybe Miles Plumlee?

[sasaint]

None that they can spare. I mean the can spare their HOF veterans, but not if you are Pop. He's paying top dollar for those guys.

I am completely deflated about Pau, personally. Much as you have gone on about your disappointment with LMA, I am about to start disliking Pau. Incredibly skilled offensive big yes, nice passer, good shooter, but he's a traffic cone on defense and it bothers me.... It's one of those things where it does bother. Maybe he wasn't the right way to go in the off season. I hope to be wrong. I have been happy to be wrong about Lee for example, but I don't see it with Pau, yet.

I won't say anything about the young players they are all in different stages of development and in very cheap contracts and some are very young still. Some look better than others but Pop has said they are work in progress so that's that. I expect more of the veterans and the guys who have gotten paid $.

Spurs stayed WAAAY to late at the parade with Manu and Tony. One can only hope that Tony will do the honorable thing at season's end and retire. Frankly the roster only has a handful (well, 4) of guys that I definitely want to have beyond this season: Kawhi (obviously), Danny, Patty, Deadman. Maybe another one or two of the young guys can become a good rotational piece (not just a body in the rotation), but I have my doubts.

I honestly believe if PATFO hadn't become so enamored with LMA, the team could have made a "controlled descent" into playoff-but-not-championship-contender by adding a couple of very good rotational pieces the last two off-seasons and would now be prepared to be a serious contender again next season. (I know that is heresy to the "win TD one last ring" crowd, but it was the better organizational move.)

How do you spell "bridge"? Or maybe it's just a bridge of sighs...

[SAGirl]

You're not going to be able to acquire players by holding onto all the guys you like. Now you can say Mills is better than Teague and be safe in your opinion. But if the Spurs are going to make any moves to add to their rotation, they aren't doing it by having sixth and seventh men on expiring being untouchable.

If the Spurs only care about winning 50 games, they can move a good chunk of their rotation and be safe in that regard. They don't need LMA, Mills or Dedmon to be slightly above average, in my opinion.
Lol Spurs fan.... we all disagree. I'd move Pau myself lol...

Pop staying pat... forget about it.... maybe a marginal player waived to get some on useless like Reggie Williams and then KMart. Nothing useful.

[sasaint]

You're not going to be able to acquire players by holding onto all the guys you like. Now you can say Mills is better than Teague and be safe in your opinion. But if the Spurs are going to make any moves to add to their rotation, they aren't doing it by having sixth and seventh men on expiring being untouchable.

If the Spurs only care about winning 50 games, they can move a good chunk of their rotation and be safe in that regard. They don't need LMA, Mills or Dedmon to be slightly above average, in my opinion.

I said I prefer Patty to Jeff Teague. I didn't say he was untouchable. Heads-up that is a losing trade for me. Somebody other than Jeff Teague? Try me.

Without Deadman, the Spurs might as well lay out a welcome mat to the basket. Definitely below average with a big rotation of LMA/Pau/Lee/Kyle/Bertans How would you remedy that?

[sasaint]

Lol Spurs fan.... we all disagree. I'd move Pau myself lol...

Pop staying pat... forget about it.... maybe a marginal player waived to get some on useless like Reggie Williams and then KMart. Nothing useful.

Pau can't be moved until December - Chinook will know when. But I am not sure he has much value. :wow

[MaNu4Tres]

Pau can't be moved until December - Chinook will know when. But I am not sure he has much value. :wow


Trade Gasol to Dallas for Bogut and his expiring. Each player will fit better for their new team.

[Chinook]

None that they can spare. I mean the can spare their HOF veterans, but not if you are Pop. He's paying top dollar for those guys.

I am completely deflated about Pau, personally. Much as you have gone on about your disappointment with LMA, I am about to start disliking Pau. Incredibly skilled offensive big yes, nice passer, good shooter, but he's a traffic cone on defense and it bothers me.... It's one of those things where it does bother. Maybe he wasn't the right way to go in the off season. I hope to be wrong. I have been happy to be wrong about Lee for example, but I don't see it with Pau, yet.

I won't say anything about the young players they are all in different stages of development and in very cheap contracts and some are very young still. Some look better than others but Pop has said they are work in progress so that's that. I expect more of the veterans and the guys who have gotten paid $.

The Spurs are looking pretty bad in their on-off numbers this season so far. Pau has been abysmal there. LMA is currently a negative. Kawhi has actually been a solid negative defensively (assuming this has mostly to do with playing against starters), though he's a huge plus offensively. Anderson has been a net negative. Parker's been otherworldly in how bad he is on both sides.

On the plus side, Simmons has been an unreal positive on defense. Mills has been tremendous offensively. Dedmon's been very strong defensively. For as badly as Manu is playing, he's eking out a positive net rating, while Lee is doing a great job as a defensive plus, despite being almost neutral offensively.

There should be an obvious trend there that isn't profound for anyone who's watched the Spurs: The starters have been outperformed while the bench has been great.

[SAGirl]

Spurs stayed WAAAY to late at the parade with Manu and Tony. One can only hope that Tony will do the honorable thing at season's end and retire. Frankly the roster only has a handful (well, 4) of guys that I definitely want to have beyond this season: Kawhi (obviously), Danny, Patty, Deadman. Maybe another one or two of the young guys can become a good rotational piece (not just a body in the rotation), but I have my doubts.

I honestly believe if PATFO hadn't become so enamored with LMA, the team could have mad a "controlled descent" into playoff-but-not-championship-contender by adding a couple of very good rotational pieces the last two off-seasons and would now be prepared to be a serious contender again next season. (I know that is heresy to the "win TD one last ring" crowd, but it was the better organizational move.)

How do you spell "bridge"? Or maybe it's just a bridge of sighs...
They were committed to keep on trying to win with their aged group surrounding a younger crew. It worked for them in the past. But TD fell off a cliff once his one good knee went south and to me, both Tony and Manu went right behind him. The emotional aspect cannot be understated. You heard RC practically in tears (understandably) then Pop saying it would have been like being cut into a thousand pieces to lose Manu that same season too.

We are watching what's hopefully the retirement tour for Manu, and Tony I don't even know what to say about his expectations to keep playing.

We shall see. If they get better defensively they have a better team than last season IMO, it's the downgrade defensively together with Tony and Manu looking done that is the problem. It would be a bit ironic and in bad humor that one season was lost bc Tim's wheels came off a d the other bc they were Manu's... The Porker crew would say Tony hasn't had wheels since sometime in 2014.

[Chinook]

Pau can't be moved until December - Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) will know when. But I am not sure he has much value. :wow

It should just be 12/15 like usual. I think he's definitely moveable, but it would have to be for a large contract signed by other the last couple of off-seasons that teams are regretting, like Bazemore or anyone Portland's signed recently besides McCollum. Next off-season, it wouldn't be hard to move him at all, I don't think.

[SAGirl]

Trade Gasol to Dallas for Bogut and his expiring. Each player will fit better for their new team.
I'd do it. :tu

[Chinook]

Trade Gasol to Dallas for Bogut and his expiring. Each player will fit better for their new team.

No Gasol and incentives to Portland for Harkless and Plumlee?

[TD 21]

Spurs don't win in 2014 without Kawhi taking over in Games 3-5. If not for Lebron cramping, Spurs go down 0-2; they looked like the inferior team at that point. Then Leonard broke out and the Spurs dominated from there. That counts as a "put the team on your back" performance.

I said as the undisputed best player. As in, when the defense is geared to stop him. Leonard didn't "put the team on his back" because no one had to, with them playing probably the best team basketball ever.

You're making a classic mistake. If the Heat win game 1 (and they might not have, even had James not cramped), the Spurs likely would have approached game 2 with a game 7 level of desperation.



-Kawhi averaged 28 ppg against OKC last regular season

-He was the main reason why the Spurs won the home game against Cavs last season, on the road he was 7-15 .429 3P% 7-8 FTs 6 rbs 2 asts 24 points

-In the two wins against the Clippers last season, he averaged 19.5 ppg in .50 FG%, and he didn't play in the loss in L.A.

-Sure, one of his home-game against GSW wasn't pretty but he was the only Spur playing well at the Oracle last season in the two games there

I would say he looked really good against elite last season.




If you think that the Spurs would have won game 3 against OKC in last playoffs without Kawhi taking over...

And if they wouldn't have stopped feeding him in game 5, .57 FG% 26 points, if they wouldn't have called those two P&Rs between Parker (4-12) and LMA (6-21) instead of going with him, the series would have changed.

Kawhi has improved every year in the postseason, he was horrible in the last 2 games of 2015 playoffs but his last playoffs were way better.

Except for his 3P%, he increased every offensive stat from the regular season to playoffs, ppg, apg, 2P%...

I don't care what he averaged. As the lead option, playing the most minutes, he's going to average a certain amount almost by default, like anyone in that position.

The only game against an elite that I can think of where he put the team on his back and led them to victory, was a home game versus the Thunder.

Game 3 against the Thunder last season was a collective effort down the stretch, with Parker playing a surprisingly good 4th quarter.

Overall, Leonard was very good in the series, but game 1 was a collective effort too. It's only been 2 playoffs, but he doesn't have a single signature win as the go to guy under his belt and the 2 series they lost were very winnable.

[MaNu4Tres]

No Gasol and incentives to Portland for Harkless and Plumlee?

You know I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

[YGWHI]

Game 3 against the Thunder last season was a collective effort down the stretch, with Parker playing a surprisingly good 4th quarter.

Most Spurs wins since 2013 have been collective efforts and Parker wasn't looking washed in a playoffs game is a plus...But Kawhi scored 14 points in the 4th quarter of game 3.

He took over that game with his offense and his crucial FTs...

[Chinook]

You know I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

:lol Yeah. I don't know if Portland would do it. Harkless and Plumee are both expendable, and having another go-to offensive option would help them. But they hate the Spurs with a fiery passion, so even if the deal where good to them, I think they'd reject it out of spite.

Was going to say that maybe the team could sub Crabbe for Harkless, but then I saw Allen's contract. Holy fucksticks, that's bad. Maybe Harkless and Leonard for Gasol, Simmons and a first?

[sasaint]

They were committed to keep on trying to win with their aged group surrounding a younger crew. It worked for them in the past. But TD fell off a cliff once his one good knee went south and to me, both Tony and Manu went right behind him. The emotional aspect cannot be understated. You heard RC practically in tears (understandably) then Pop saying it would have been like being cut into a thousand pieces to lose Manu that same season too.

We are watching what's hopefully the retirement tour for Manu, and Tony I don't even know what to say about his expectations to keep playing.

We shall see. If they get better defensively they have a better team than last season IMO, it's the downgrade defensively together with Tony and Manu looking done that is the problem. It would be a bit ironic and in bad humor that one season was lost bc Tim's wheels came off a d the other bc they were Manu's... The Porker crew would say Tony hasn't had wheels since sometime in 2014.

Yeah, I know the company line. My advice to Pop and RC is: If you want to get gooey and sentimental, spend some time with your wives. I also understand that what the Spurs hope is that their sense of family/loyalty is what will set the organization apart. However loyalty to the point of self-destruction is not commendable.

Let's see what their emotions are like at the end of this season...

[sasaint]

:lol Yeah. I don't know if Portland would do it. Harkless and Plumee are both expendable, and having another go-to offensive option would help them. But they hate the Spurs with a fiery passion, so even if the deal where good to them, I think they'd reject it out of spite.

Was going to say that maybe the team could sub Crabbe for Harkless, but then I saw Allen's contract. Holy fucksticks, that's bad. Maybe Harkless and Leonard for Gasol, Simmons and a first?

I have coveted MLeonard since his rookie season, even though he has been bit by the injury bug and has not touched the ceiling I projected for him.

[MaNu4Tres]

:lol Yeah. I don't know if Portland would do it. Harkless and Plumee are both expendable, and having another go-to offensive option would help them. But they hate the Spurs with a fiery passion, so even if the deal where good to them, I think they'd reject it out of spite.

Was going to say that maybe the team could sub Crabbe for Harkless, but then I saw Allen's contract. Holy fucksticks, that's bad. Maybe Harkless and Leonard for Gasol, Simmons and a first?

Neil Olshey actually has nothing against the Spurs, unlike the guy before him who had a hard-on to fuck the Spurs ( Pritchard).

I'd prefer Gasol & Murray for Harkless, Festus.


Spurs could have just signed both this past summer. They could have offered Harkless 4/50 and went after Festus with the rest.

[sasaint]

Neil Olshey actually has nothing against the Spurs, unlike the guy before him who had a hard-on to fuck the Spurs ( Pritchard).

I'd prefer Gasol & Murray for Harkless, Festus.


Spurs could have just signed both this past summer. They could have offered Harkless 4/50 and went after Festus with the rest.

But, but, but what about "the quintessential Spur" Pau Gasol?

[Chinook]

Neil Olshey actually has nothing against the Spurs, unlike the guy before him who had a hard-on to fuck the Spurs ( Pritchard).

I'd prefer Gasol & Murray for Harkless, Festus.


Spurs could have just signed both this past summer. They could have offered Harkless 4/50 and went after Festus with the rest.

I'd prefer that trade too, but I don't think it's workable. Ezeli likely has more value to them right now, and I doubt Murray has more than Simmons. So it would be harder for me to see how the Blazers could make the deal. They'd have so much money tied up in mediocre guys when they're already looking at tax hell.

Also, the Blazers still have the LMA thing to hate the Spurs over.

[Chinook]

But, but, but what about "the quintessential Spur" Pau Gasol?

Pau will be fine. I don't like the idea of trading him without getting back yet another offense-first player. Harkless and Ezeli would improve the defense, but the basic issue with the Spurs not being able to score reliably in multiple ways still stands.

[MaNu4Tres]

But, but, but what about "the quintessential Spur" Pau Gasol?

Never wanted him. Value was only tied offensively and his offense wasn't even that great.. I take that back some of his value was tied to just his name too.

[sasaint]

Never wanted him. Value was only tied offensively and his offense wasn't even that great.. I take that back some of his value was tied to just his name too.

Yep, Pau got here a few years too late. He would have worked well alongside TD prior to last season. I believe a big reason that the Spurs pursued both LMA and Pau was simply because the world believed they had the cachet to attract big names when they never had before. Heady liquor for some...

[sasaint]

Pau will be fine. I don't like the idea of trading him without getting back yet another offense-first player. Harkless and Ezeli would improve the defense, but the basic issue with the Spurs not being able to score reliably in multiple ways still stands.

We will just have to disagree about Pau and hope for the best for the Spurs. But I am with SAGirl on this one. (Of course, I was with her on Kyle, too :lol)

[MaNu4Tres]

Pau will be fine. I don't like the idea of trading him without getting back yet another offense-first player. Harkless and Ezeli would improve the defense, but the basic issue with the Spurs not being able to score reliably in multiple ways still stands.

Harkless and Ezeli would improve the offense more than you think. Not saying their go- to players, but they're skillsets as secondary role players on the offensive end benefits everyone around them. I can argue how they'd benefit the offense more than Gasol.

Then again this is a hypothetical that has less than 1% chance of happening, so there's really no point getting that deep into that.

[SAGirl]

Pau will be fine. I don't like the idea of trading him without getting back yet another offense-first player. Harkless and Ezeli would improve the defense, but the basic issue with the Spurs not being able to score reliably in multiple ways still stands.
And I would like that scoring to come from a guard, not from a big that's going to take post up opportunities from LMA, or even Kiwi.... They will never maximize Pau offensively. It's on another thread! Meanwhile, Parker, what does he do? Parked in a corner? :bang

And Pau and Tony together on defense :wow

[SAGirl]

We will just have to disagree about Pau and hope for the best for the Spurs. But I am with SAGirl (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49524) on this one. (Of course, I was with her on Kyle, too :lol)
Not going to say much on Kyle bc he's playing a role next to high usage players who really don't move the ball all that much, and there are stars there that got to feed and carry the team. More than anything, I have been disappointed he hasn't been shooting the 3 as willingly as he needs to, specially bc he's shown he can shoot. Ill just wait for the season to develop more and him to go back to a bench role and what they thought he'd really be doing for the season a d I do bet he'd still need to be more willing to shoot. We shall just see. He can't disappear in the bench.

[Chinook]

Who the fuck is this poster:

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1489762&p=49878288#p49878288

Worst trade idea I've seen in years.

[Kawhitstorm]

Even Aldridge, who's never been anointed a top 10, let alone 2 player, had a single Trail Blazers team as good as the '15 and '16 Spurs and is supposedly "soft" and a "choker", has one of the those playoff series ('14 WCQF) on his resume.

Softridge went off against Terrance Jones then shot below 40% in 3 of the last 4 games including 3-12 for 8 points in Gm 5.:lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Spurs could have just signed both this past summer. They could have offered Harkless 4/50 and went after Festus with the rest.

Ezeli's knees might be toast, dude hasn't played a minute this season & he has been out for extended period every season since his rookie year. That's probably why nobody wanted to touch him this past summer.


Trade Gasol to Dallas for Bogut and his expiring. Each player will fit better for their new team.

Even if he's a better fit, I'm not sure that Bogut is going to move the needle. The PnR defense is still going to be shitty & teams are going to pack the paint if Porker/Bogut are together on the floor, considering that would be a good chunk of their minutes the offense is going to suffer. The net rating isn't going to change much unless Patty is starting & getting illegal screens from Bogut who would also watch his back on defense.

[MaNu4Tres]

Ezeli's knees might be toast, dude hasn't played a minute this season & he has been out for extended period every season since his rookie year. That's probably why nobody wanted to touch him this past summer.



Even if he's a better fit, I'm not sure that Bogut is going to move the needle. The PnR defense is still going to be shitty & teams are going to pack the paint if Porker/Bogut are together on the floor, considering that would be a good chunk of their minutes the offense is going to suffer. The net rating isn't going to change much unless Patty is starting & getting illegal screens from Bogut who would also watch his back on defense.


I never said it was a move that was going to move the needle. At least it's a better fit for the short term and even better is that it's an expiring.

Wish the Spurs never went the Gasol route, it just prolonged the inevitable. There was other moves that could have been made with the money that would have put the Spurs in a better spot short term for this year and long term for next few seasons.

[sasaint]

You know I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

Absolutely! Unfortunately, Portland would just laugh at the idea. :depressed

[Kawhitstorm]

I never said it was a move that was going to move the needle. At least it's a better fit for the short term and even better is that it's an expiring.

Bogut is injury prone & is averaging less than 20 minutes. The team would also lack anything resembling a 3rd scorer & struggle mightily if Softridge is injured/resting.

Doesn't make much sense to trade for a defensive center when the guard play is atrocious & Dedmon is on the roster. Warriors were the perfect for for Bogut b/c they had two scoring guards who needed illegal screens & had Draymond cover the PnRs. Even then the Warriors were at their best w/ him on the bench.


Wish the Spurs never went the Gasol route, it just prolonged the inevitable. There was other moves that could have been made with the money that would have put the Spurs in a better spot short term for this year and long term for next few seasons.

Pau would come in handy if Softridge is moved much like Kanter is expendable but has come in handy for OKC. If Ibaka can fetch Oladipo+lotto pick then Softridge should be able to fetch Jrue+lotto pick.

[TD 21]

Most Spurs wins since 2013 have been collective efforts and Parker wasn't looking washed in a playoffs game is a plus...But Kawhi scored 14 points in the 4th quarter of game 3.

He took over that game with his offense and his crucial FTs...

Exactly.

Even if I were to concede, that would be one game. A better playoff resume as the best player on the team is required before he's anointed the "second best player in the world".



Softridge went off against Terrance Jones then shot below 40% in 3 of the last 4 games including 3-12 for 8 points in Gm 5.:lol

You can make excuses all you want, the bottom line is, Aldridge, as the best player of a team, has a playoff series win against a favored opponent, thanks in large part to him dominating the first 2 games.

Leonard, as the best player of a team, has lost 2 series in 2 years where his team was favored (even if they shouldn't have been).

[SAGirl]

Bogut is injury prone & is averaging less than 20 minutes. The team would also lack anything resembling a 3rd scorer & struggle mightily if Softridge is injured/resting.

Doesn't make much sense to trade for a defensive center when the guard play is atrocious & Dedmon is on the roster. Warriors were the perfect for for Bogut b/c they had two scoring guards who needed illegal screens & had Draymond cover the PnRs. Even then the Warriors were at their best w/ him on the bench.



Pau would come in handy if Softridge is moved much like Kanter is expendable but has come in handy for OKC. If Ibaka can fetch Oladipo+lotto pick then Softridge should be able to fetch Jrue+lotto pick.
More than anything I like that Bogut's contract is expiring and he's a better fit defensively for LMA... If Pau was Ok with splitting some time up in the bench, the team maybe wouldn't have this problem (unknown I'd Dedmon is going to stay out of foul trouble if he was starting, probably not) but he's a diva who won't go to the bench if that was better for the team anyways and in the SL his contributions offensively are not enough to compensate for his atrocious defense. Kawhi's can use a better screen setter ok if we are honest.... but we would have to wait until Danny gets back and Pop addresses the problem between LMA and Pau. If that's not solved in a couple of months I would definitely consider trades...

[Kawhitstorm]

You can make excuses all you want, the bottom line is, Aldridge, as the best player of a team, has a playoff series win against a favored opponent, thanks in large part to him dominating the first 2 games.

Leonard, as the best player of a team, has lost 2 series in 2 years where his team was favored (even if they shouldn't have been).

Yeah, keep throwing the false equivalencies when injuries to the supporting cast was what derailed the Spurs the past two postseasons.:rolleyes

If injured Porker/Tiago don't get raw dogged by CP3/Blake or Tim/Diaw/D-Worst aren't a shell of themselves then the Spurs would have won BOTH series. LeBron w/ Kyrie on his side almost lost to the Bulls in 2015 who had the corpse of Rose/Noah, probably would have if Pau didn't get injured in Gm 3.

The Blazers beating the Rockets had a lot to do w/ Wes Matthew turning Harden into an inefficient chucker, Dwight was actually the most consistently dominate player in the series but was left hanging.

[tbdog]

It is pointless getting an expiring contract now, considering moving P Gasol or Parker would be relatively easy if the Spurs need to clear space for a free agent that has agreed to join. If the Spurs wanted to move Gasol now for an expiring, then Parker also needs to. By clearing out Manu contract (retired), Spurs could net around 45mil of cap space in 2017 free agency to obtain key free agent(s) and attempt to retain some of Dedmon, Simmons, Lee. Considering the rookie salary scaling will rise, and free agents like Solomon Hill getting 12mil, as you can see, by keeping parker, 30mil does not buy much.

[TD 21]

Yeah, keep throwing the false equivalencies when injuries to the supporting cast was what derailed the Spurs the past two postseasons.:rolleyes

If injured Porker/Tiago don't get raw dogged by CP3/Blake or Tim/Diaw/D-Worst aren't a shell of themselves then the Spurs would have won BOTH series. LeBron w/ Kyrie on his side almost lost to the Bulls in 2015 who had the corpse of Rose/Noah, probably would have if Pau didn't get injured in Gm 3.

The Blazers beating the Rockets had a lot to do w/ Wes Matthew turning Harden into an inefficient chucker, Dwight was actually the most consistently dominate player in the series but was left hanging.

So now when it benefits Leonard, Parker in '15 and Duncan in '16, were injured? What happened to pretending as if Parker was the worst player in the history of sport and Duncan just missing layups for no reason?

Since I literally said it before the series, I buy that a combination of injuries and fatigue derailed them in '15. Even so, they series technically came down to the final possession of game 7. Had Leonard played like what he supposedly was, which was the best player in the series, he could have swung it.

Again, you can make all the excuses you want, the bottom line is Aldridge was the best player on a team that pulled a (slight) upset and did so in large part thanks to him dominating the first 2 games.

[timtonymanu]

Team needs more defense than anything

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I know the defense still needs a lot of work, but again the Spurs have no one to rely on as a solid second option. LMA is NOT that player. He mental checks out far too often and is incredibly soft. Houston has NO ONE who should be able to guard him yet he plays like a total pussy.

I can forgive so many things that went wrong for SA tonight because it is November and there are a lot of new pieces, but LMA is incredibly disheartening to watch. He is hesitating constantly and so unsure of himself.

Kawhi may force it sometimes but at least he's trying, Patty Mills is very streak, and Gasol only takes 3-4 shots a game.

Green is awesome to have back, but this team has no second option. If Kawhi shoots below 50% the Spurs will get blown out.

[dabom]

I know the defense still needs a lot of work, but again the Spurs have no one to rely on as a solid second option. LMA is NOT that player. He mental checks out far too often and is incredibly soft. Houston has NO ONE who should be able to guard him yet he plays like a total pussy.

I can forgive so many things that went wrong for SA tonight because it is November and there are a lot of new pieces, but LMA is incredibly disheartening to watch. He is hesitating constantly and so unsure of himself.

Kawhi may force it sometimes but at least he's trying, Patty Mills is very streak, and Gasol only takes 3-4 shots a game.

Green is awesome to have back, but this team has no second option. If Kawhi shoots below 50% the Spurs will get blown out.

We win a Championship if our Center doesn't go down this year. Book it.

[MaNu4Tres]

I know the defense still needs a lot of work, but again the Spurs have no one to rely on as a solid second option. LMA is NOT that player. He mental checks out far too often and is incredibly soft. Houston has NO ONE who should be able to guard him yet he plays like a total pussy.

I can forgive so many things that went wrong for SA tonight because it is November and there are a lot of new pieces, but LMA is incredibly disheartening to watch. He is hesitating constantly and so unsure of himself.

Kawhi may force it sometimes but at least he's trying, Patty Mills is very streak, and Gasol only takes 3-4 shots a game.

Green is awesome to have back, but this team has no second option. If Kawhi shoots below 50% the Spurs will get blown out.

Maybe if LaMarcus put in work in the offseason, he wouldnt be so indecisive and soft.

Second season in a row he used the season to get in shape, instead of busting his ass in the offseason like winners do.

Hes not a winner.

[MaNu4Tres]

Kawhi needs to do a better job manufacturing shots for his teammates. Thats his next step.

He puts too much energy to find bad/ tough shots for himself because hes blind to anything other than the basket.

One assist and he had over 35 possessions tonight.

[dabom]

Kawhi needs to do a better job manufacturing shots for his teammates. Thats his next step.

He puts too much energy to find bad/ tough shots for himself because hes blind to anything other than the basket.

One assist and he had over 35 possessions tonight.

Kawhi increased his scoring output by a huge margin and has been a great facilitator these past few games. 1 game and hes blind to anything other than the basket. :lmao

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Kawhi needs to do a better job manufacturing shots for his teammates. Thats his next step.

He puts too much energy to find bad/ tough shots for himself because hes blind to anything other than the basket.

One assist and he had over 35 possessions tonight.


YES, love Kawhi's improvement but he has absolute tunnel vision at times this season. He really doesn't trust his teammates at all, but on many nights I can't blame him. Sometimes it feels like he's playing more for himself as oppose to the team.

I know chemistry is going to be awkward this time of year, but it was a little disheartening to see how many shots the Spurs would pass up only to drive 4 feet in and then kick it back out again only for the same thing to happen over and over again.

[noles1983]

this team is aids

[MaNu4Tres]

Kawhi increased his scoring output by a huge margin and has been a great facilitator these past few games. 1 game and hes blind to anything other than the basket. :lmao

His possession to assist ratio is one of the worst in the NBA for the type of offensive player he is now in regards to responsibility.

He needs to do a better job at finding others for better opportunities.

Its a critique for a top 5 player..its okay.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

We win a Championship if our Center doesn't go down this year. Book it.

No offense (no pun intended) are you kidding right now? This team is not even close to a title contender. Their offense is completely MIA and the defense even worse. Green's return should help and it's early days but without any playmakers or consistent minutes with rim protection this team will be a second round exit at best.

[dabom]

No offense (no pun intended) are you kidding right now? This team is not even close to a title contender. Their offense is completely MIA and the defense even worse. Green's return should help and it's early days but without any playmakers or consistent minutes with rim protection this team will be a second round exit at best.

We beat GSW. STFU. :lmao

[Amuseddaysleeper]

We beat GSW. STFU. :lmao

On the first day of the season with them being exceptionally cold. I don't think beating them opening night means we will beat them in the playoffs.

[dabom]

His possession to assist ratio is one of the worst in the NBA for the type of offensive player he is now in regards to responsibility.

He needs to do a better job at finding others for better opportunities.

Its a critique for a top 5 player..its okay.

He probably has the best efficient numbers in the NBA. Sorry but he can't be Jordan times 3 for fucks sake. It's a knock on your expectations and you need to get back to reality.

[Chinook]

I've never loved Kawhiso, but the Spurs can deal with it as a feature of their offense. Without a legit backcourt scorer like Bledsoe or Lowry, there's going to be more games like this. You balance out Kawhi with a guard who penetrates without trying to get fouled, and you get LMA's head out of his LMAss, then you have the makings of a dynamic offense. But right now, Kawhi's Rudy Gay act isn't going to work against most teams. It's just not enough.

[dabom]

On the first day of the season with them being exceptionally cold. I don't think beating them opening night means we will beat them in the playoffs.

Guess losing now doesn't mean shit come playoff time. Thanks for disproving yourself. :lol

[dabom]

I've never loved Kawhiso, but the Spurs can deal with it as a feature of their offense. Without a legit backcourt scorer like Bledsoe or Lowry, there's going to be more games like this. You balance out Kawhi with a guard who penetrates without trying to get fouled, and you get LMA's head out of his LMAss, then you have the makings of a dynamic offense. But right now, Kawhi's Rudy Gay act isn't going to work against most teams. It's just not enough.

Are you implying he is a cancer you stupid fucking faggot low IQ bitch. :lmao

The shit you say. :lmao

[MaNu4Tres]

He probably has the best efficient numbers in the NBA. Sorry but he can't be Jordan times 3 for fucks sake. It's a knock on your expectations and you need to get back to reality.

My expectations?

Do you read?

I said its his next step in his development. He doesnt have even average vision.

In order for the team to take that next step, he needs to work on that next step if hes going to have that high of a usage offensively.

[dabom]

My expectations?

Do you read?

I said its his next step in his development. He doesnt have even average vision.

In order for the team to take that next step, he needs to work on that next step if hes going to have that high of a usage offensively.

He's already the best player in the NBA. More like the Spurs Big Money guys need to start playing like NBA players. :lmao

[Amuseddaysleeper]

He's already the best player in the NBA. More like the Spurs Big Money guys need to start playing like NBA players. :lmao

I was incredibly impressed with a certain player on the floor tonight but it wasn't Kawhi Leonard. Far from it.

[dabom]

I was incredibly impressed with a certain player on the floor tonight but it wasn't Kawhi Leonard. Far from it.

I guess you disproved yourself and started on something else. Thanks for proving me right. :tu

[YGWHI]

I've never loved Kawhiso, but the Spurs can deal with it as a feature of their offense. Without a legit backcourt scorer like Bledsoe or Lowry, there's going to be more games like this. You balance out Kawhi with a guard who penetrates without trying to get fouled, and you get LMA's head out of his LMAss, then you have the makings of a dynamic offense. But right now, Kawhi's Rudy Gay act isn't going to work against most teams. It's just not enough.

It's funny because LMA took the most shots in the first minutes of the game, in a deliberate team effort -Kawhi included- to keep LMA involved but he missed all those shots...

Then Kawhi made 10 points in the quarter. His offense isn't enough because nobody else scores, they're missing open shots, a lot of bunnies, passing good shots...

And LMA isn't nearly the guy of last months in past season

[Kawhitstorm]

So now when it benefits Leonard, Parker in '15 and Duncan in '16, were injured? What happened to pretending as if Parker was the worst player in the history of sport and Duncan just missing layups for no reason?

I'm pretty sure anyone w/ a neuron would have put their money on the Spurs if Porker/Tiago/Tim/D-Worst/Diaw were playing like that the entire season.:rolleyes

I was on record saying that the Cripples are a terrible matchup for the Spurs & that the team would get murdered on the boards if Pop played D-Worst/Diaw against Kanter even when Tim was healthy during the season opener: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253511&page=59&p=8607847&viewfull=1#post8607847

[Kawhitstorm]

It's funny because LMA took the most shots in the first minutes of the game, in a deliberate team effort -Kawhi included- to keep LMA involved but he missed all those shots...

Then Kawhi made 10 points in the quarter. His offense isn't enough because nobody else scores, they're missing open shots, a lot of bunnies, passing good shots...

And LMA isn't nearly the guy of last months in past season

Basically, it's not like Kawhi is freezing out Softridge like Harden frozen out Dwight. Softrige is out there coasting like Pau did under D'Antoni when he was on the trading blocks.

[Kawhitstorm]

His possession to assist ratio is one of the worst in the NBA for the type of offensive player he is now in regards to responsibility
I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do w/ the ISO offense Pop has been running the past two seasons.:wakeup

In any case, wing players who aren't full-time point-forwards usually don't have a high assist per possession ratio b/c they don't penetrate & kick. Most of their assists are via running PnRs or passing out of double teams which usually results in hockey assists.

His assist per 100 possession is on par w/ '05-'06 Kirby & the current version of Softridge/Pau are on par w/ Odom/Mihm. Shyt, Smush Parker was better than Porker.:lol

His assist percentage is on par w/ '12-'13 Durant who also played in an ISO system but actually had better teammates.

Carmelo supposedly played point-forward last season & had an assist rate was on par w/ Kawhi's.

Overall, Kawhi has been almost on par w/ '13-'14 MVP Durant who averaged 5 assists per 36 vs. Kawhi's 4 w/ the same usage rate. Considering how shitty the supporting cast has been since the season opener I'm pretty sure Kawhi could have gotten one more assist from each game. Let's no forget that WestBrick actually played half the season & ChewBaka was a better PnP player than the current version of Softridge.


He needs to do a better job at finding others for better opportunities.

IKR, he should have given a boost to Softridge so he could tip in a point blank lay-up!:rolleyes

[YGWHI]

Basically, it's not like Kawhi is freezing out Softridge like Harden frozen out Dwight. Softrige is out there coasting like Pau did under D'Antoni when he was on the trading blocks.

Exactly.

Also, against Pels, Jazz in the home game, LMA took more or the same shots than Kawhi...He had his opportunities. He's looking bored or disinterested.

[TD 21]

I'm pretty sure anyone w/ a neuron would have put their money on the Spurs if Porker/Tiago/Tim/D-Worst/Diaw were playing like that the entire season.:rolleyes

I was on record saying that the Cripples are a terrible matchup for the Spurs & that the team would get murdered on the boards if Pop played D-Worst/Diaw against Kanter even when Tim was healthy during the season opener: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253511&page=59&p=8607847&viewfull=1#post8607847

As usual, moving the goal posts. This is about you pretending Parker's and Duncan's struggles weren't injured related and now conceding they were because it benefits Leonard.

They were playing like that going in and rightly or wrongly the Spurs were still favored. Despite that, given the way '15 played out, they could have advanced had Leonard lived up to the hype.

Yeah, Leonard's 2 runs as the best player are a limited sample size, but you and your ilk base a lot of your opinions off of that and are often prisoners of the moment.

[Kawhitstorm]

Yeah, Leonard's 2 runs as the best player are a limited sample size, but you and your ilk base a lot of your opinions off of that and are often prisoners of the moment.

Yeah he didn't win back-to-back DPOYs & lead the team to a franchise record 67 wins while finishing second in MVP. He's universally regarded as the best 2-way player even by his peers by what he put in by a season long sample size but he had a couple of sub-par games LIKE EVERYONE does in the postseason & he's all of a sudden not a superstar.:lol

I guess Tim wasn't a superstar in '04 when the Lakers "UPSET" the Spurs b/c Phil shut him down by sending double teams after Gm 3.:cry

Kawhi against the Clippers played as well as Pippen did in '94 against the Knicks but I don't hear anyone ripping Pippen (actually the opposite) even though Bulls would have won if Pippen shot the ball as well as he did in the regular season (Horace Grant/BJ Armstrong balled out in that series). That's supposed to be Pippen's best season meanwhile Kawhi was learning to be the #1 option on the fly.:lol

Besides, Jordan in the '96 Finals didn't play better than Kawhi did against OKC but unanimously won Finals MVP.:lol That was Jordan's last season at his peak while it was Kawhi first MVP level season. :lol

Let's no even talk about the 2010 Finals MVP, the so called "Best player of his generation"::lol

[Chinook]

Not that this addresses the second-option issue, but what about Tyler Johnson? The dude is on a heavy contract, which would be a minus. But the plus is that he's actually pretty easy to acquire given his depressed salary over the next two seasons. To me, he seems like an actualized Jonathon Simmons. He moves the ball, gets his points, helps out on the boards and makes splash plays on D. He would have been the ideal companion to Manu back when that was a concern. Now I could see him coming in as that fifth player to set up a strong defensive perimeter with Green and Leonard while also being able to penetrate and space the floor.

Down side besides the contract is that he star but would likely take a good offer to get since the Heat likely want to keep him. He's their Danny Green, and they matched the offer sheet because they realize what that means. And he's not a PG even if he could guard the one and do some PG by committee with Simmons, Manu and/or Anderson on the bench and Kawhi in the SL. Even after this trade, acquiring a guard would be the top priority in the off-season.

But on the plus side, his deal is smaller than Patty's hold, so the Spurs would have some cap space to make moves. And he's pretty much a cross between Patty and Cory in terms of skill-set and on-court attitude. He's the perfect third guard, which the team needs even if it needs a first guard more.

[SAGirl]

I have liked Tyler Johnson. How do you suggest he be acquired?

[TD 21]

Yeah he didn't win back-to-back DPOYs & lead the team to a franchise record 67 wins while finishing second in MVP. He's universally regarded as the best 2-way player even by his peers by what he put in by a season long sample size but he had a couple of sub-par games LIKE EVERYONE does in the postseason & he's all of a sudden not a superstar.:lol

I guess Tim wasn't a superstar in '04 when the Lakers "UPSET" the Spurs b/c Phil shut him down by sending double teams after Gm 3.:cry

Kawhi against the Clippers played as well as Pippen did in '94 against the Knicks but I don't hear anyone ripping Pippen (actually the opposite) even though Bulls would have won if Pippen shot the ball as well as he did in the regular season (Horace Grant/BJ Armstrong balled out in that series). That's supposed to be Pippen's best season meanwhile Kawhi was learning to be the #1 option on the fly.:lol

Besides, Jordan in the '96 Finals didn't play better than Kawhi did against OKC but unanimously won Finals MVP.:lol That was Jordan's last season at his peak while it was Kawhi first MVP level season. :lol

Let's no even talk about the 2010 Finals MVP, the so called "Best player of his generation"::lol

Again, I was speaking strictly about Leonard, as the clear best player on the team, in the playoffs and versus the elite, because those are really the only two things that truly matter when it comes to teams with legit championship aspirations.

All of these comparisons are irrelevant and desperate attempts to spin.

[Kawhitstorm]

Again, I was speaking strictly about Leonard, as the clear best player on the team, in the playoffs and versus the elite, because those are really the only two things that truly matter when it comes to teams with legit championship aspirations.

I gave you comparisons of HIGHLY revered superstars wing-players in the same situation as Kawhi who are supposed to be playoff performers but somehow those are irrelevant b/c they don't fit your narrative.:rolleyes


All of these comparisons are irrelevant and desperate attempts to spin

Yeah let's compare Kawhi to a video game b/c he's a robot.:lol

[TD 21]

I gave you comparisons of HIGHLY revered superstars wing-players in the same situation as Kawhi who are supposed to be playoff performers but somehow those are irrelevant b/c they don't fit your narrative.:rolleyes


You can pick holes in every player in the history of sport, but Pippen had 1 playoff run as the clear cut best player on the roster (and narrowly missed the Finals, on a questionable call, without a legit 2nd option), while Jordan has 6, James 3 and Bryant 1 or 2, championships in said role.

In 2 years, Leonard has lost 2 series while favored and has seen his team lose the majority of close games to the elite and struggle in them in general.

No matter their level of play in those situations, anyone else and people like you would be tearing them down, not making excuses.

[Kawhitstorm]

You can pick holes in every player in the history of sport, but Pippen had 1 playoff run as the clear cut best player on the roster (and narrowly missed the Finals, on a questionable call, without a legit 2nd option)

Pippen lost in the 2nd rd, it was Reggie's Pacers that narrowly missed the Finals. Besides, Pippen got outplayed by none other than Horace Grant in '95 when the Bulls lost to the Magic w/ JORDAN as his 2nd option.:lol


while Jordan has 6, James 3 and Bryant 1 or 2, championships in said role.

In 2 years, Leonard has lost 2 series while favored and has seen his team lose the majority of close games to the elite and struggle in them in general.

No matter their level of play in those situations, anyone else and people like you would be tearing them down, not making excuses.

I guess if Jordan's two postseason series of his career had been '95 vs. Magic & '96 vs. Sonics, you would have claimed he wasn't a postseason performer b/c look at the sample size::wow

Spurs lost two series against two teams that MAXED out their potential for a series: '15 Clippers who were firing on all cylinders until Choke-P3 got injured & '16 OKC who Iggy said were the best team in the postseason.

[MaNu4Tres]

What does Aldridge do at an All-Star level besides mid-range shooting?

[dabom]

What does Aldridge do at an All-Star level besides mid-range shooting?

Minutes.

[Robz4000]

Hell, they don't even have a consistent first option. If Kawhi keeps playing like Rudy Gay Jr. this team isn't winning a playoff series.

[MaNu4Tres]

Hell, they don't even have a consistent first option. If Kawhi keeps playing like Rudy Gay Jr. this team isn't winning a playoff series.

My problem with Kawhi is he can't create enough separation to turn corner on PnRs and when he barely does, he doesn't look for others well. He puts himself in tough spots more often than not in those scenarios.

It's his next step in his development. But he may not be able to ever create significant space off the dribble because he's not quick enough -- he's just so long.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

:toast

[MaNu4Tres]

:toast

People will point at Aldridge's All-Star game appearances but the real fans know how overrated he truly is.

Sell high while you can, Spurs.

[spursistan]

Lamarcus Aldridge:

December 2015 averages: 16 GP/28.8 MPG/16 PPG/8.4 RPG/52 FG %

December 2016 averages: 9 GP/29.2 MPG/14.2 PPG/6.4 RPG/45.2 FG %


Quite troubling that at this time last year he looked much better, and that's few weeks before his late January surge....His regression is inexcusable..

[duncan2k5]

Kawhi didn't wet the bed in the playoffs...u guys weren't paying attention... I was SREAMING at them to run the offense thru kawhi...but he barely shot the ball...he never was able to get a rhythm...there were multiple possessions he didn't even tough the ball because diva was on the court..it isn't a coincidence we destroyed the warriors without tony this year

[Robz4000]

Kawhi didn't wet the bed in the playoffs...u guys weren't paying attention... I was SREAMING at them to run the offense thru kawhi...but he barely shot the ball...he never was able to get a rhythm...there were multiple possessions he didn't even tough the ball because diva was on the court..it isn't a coincidence we destroyed the warriors without tony this year

Tony played in the first game and played decently well. Green was missing, however.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

LMA is an "all star" this season they said...anyone who thinks that needs to off themselves.

[TD 21]

Merit is largely irrelevant, as reputation and team success have always played a major role in All-Star selections and he checks both boxes.

It's hypocritical to apply that criteria when it's a Warrior, then disregard it when it's a Spur.

[spursgu]

LMA is an "all star" this season they said...anyone who thinks that needs to off themselves.

Off yourself you tampon wearing faggot

[spursistan]

Aldridge can seriously GTFO..he is as unreliable as they come..I mean if you can't carry a team in the dog games of January after a perceived All Star snub, we pretty much have no hope with him in the true pressure cooker...

Sadly, we kinda knew that, but we all wanted to indulge in self-delusion and keep rooting for him..

[GSH]

Okay, quick... on a Per 36 Minute basis, who is the Spurs; third best scorer?

That's right. DeJounte Murray. Then Mills. Danny Green is 14th, and KA is dead last. A starter and one of the top subs are the two worst scorers on the team. The first-off-the-bench PG is putting up 3's at the second highest rate on the team, which means he's not spending a hell of a lot of time penetrating.

[spursistan]

Aldridge offense has completely fallen off cliff...Now it we're doing it "by committee" after Kawhi :lol..

This team is just going nowhere; they simply lack consistent firepower beyond one player.

[DAF86]

Aldridge offensive game just completely deserted him. His shots don't look remotely close to have a chance of going in. It has gotten to the point where it's painful to watch him on the low block.

[UZER]

Because Pop will let his guards play until they're 50 if they want to.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

This is the worst Spurs team since 2009. Really an embarrassment tot he rest of the league that a team like this can have the second best record in the league :wow

[TimDunkem]

Because Pop will let his guards play until they're 50 if they want to.It's so damn annoying. Fucking legacy pass for these guys. This team should've upgraded the guard positions - but of course Pop goes all in with Manu and Tony.

[spursistan]

Aldridge is 9-35 in two nationally televised games this past week.. At least he's doing it himself to vindicate the fans, media, and coaches for not thinking he is a star caliber player anymore..

[ElNono]

Because Pop will let his guards play until they're 50 if they want to.


Aldridge is 9-35 in two nationally televised games this past week.. At least he's doing it himself to vindicate the fans, media, and coaches for not thinking he is a star caliber player anymore..

Clearly Tony's and Manu's fault, tbh... probably sabotaging him...

[vander]

how many times did SA go to LMA in the post today? I only remember like 2 or 3 times, should have gone there early and often. the pick and rolls were terrible, Kawhi can't ever seem to make the pass when it's there...

why can't our 2 max players get any kind of 2 man game going?

[Capt Bringdown]

LMA is quickly becoming my least favorite Spur in recent memory. The dude is just such a big letdown.

I recall that Portland fans were booing him when he went back there in a Spurs uniform. Fark, portland fans should be ecstatic than he's no longer making their shitty team even shittier.
He's a cancer.

[SAGirl]

What does Aldridge do at an All-Star level besides mid-range shooting?
Its to the point I am hoping his midrange shot comes back, not even debating whether there are better shots you would rather have him take. Where's his game? What is up with him?

[Capt Bringdown]

Where's his game? What is up with him?

His game is in the past. It's only going to get worse with this guy. All he has left is the soft jumpers. And those broke-ass pump fakes.

[MaNu4Tres]

Its to the point I am hoping his midrange shot comes back, not even debating whether there are better shots you would rather have him take. Where's his game? What is up with him?

This is why offseason work is important. Oh so now people are wondering why hes inconsistent?

It all comes back to him not doing a damn thing two offseasons in a row.

Hard work, effectivess, confidence, and consistency are all correlated.

If he goes for a third straight season of sitting on his ass he'll decline even more.

[skulls138]

Its to the point I am hoping his midrange shot comes back, not even debating whether there are better shots you would rather have him take. Where's his game? What is up with him?He should never stop shooting the midrange if hes open. When he starts missing is when he forces it, when he fades away so much that hes out of control. He now needs a little more patience in his game. Dont shoot unless comfortable with it. If not comfortable with it, pass it back out or keep the dribble and work it down low. I think its awesome that hes doing the other things asked of him. He should be commended for that and hope the offense comes, which it should.

[Amuseddaysleeper]

This is why offseason work is important. Oh so now people are wondering why hes inconsistent?

It all comes back to him not doing a damn thing two offseasons in a row.

Hard work, effectivess, confidence, and consistency are all correlated.

If he goes for a third straight season of sitting on his ass he'll decline even more.

That's the difference between him and Kawhi, every season Kawhi brings something new to the table. You can tell he's a gym rat.

I'm not even sure Aldridge's midrange game is at an all star level either anymore. He bricks them pretty badly more often than ever it feels like.

[DenialTwist]

Watch the Spurs get swept by the Warriors in the playoffs and maybe only then will the front office will make a big change in the offseason. The team currently constructed is going to get obliterated by the Clippers, Grizz, Rockets or Warriors. Kawhi's carrying scrubs, what a shame.

[BillMc]

For those who were arguing that Pau was hurting LMA's game, I wonder what LMA's shooting percentage has been since Pau went down? It'd be interesting to see if it's changed much either way.

[SAGirl]

For those who were arguing that Pau was hurting LMA's game, I wonder what LMA's shooting percentage has been since Pau went down? It'd be interesting to see if it's changed much either way.
I think we need to consider whether Lamarcus is just having a down year.. and that's a bad omen. Hopefully I am reverse jinxing him... I wish that's the case.

Turn off social media Lamarcus...

I wonder about Tims locker room presence... he was seen encouraging Lamarcus through the early season struggles last season...

I miss Tim, the person TBH.

[bic50]

I'm starting to get the feeling Aldridge doesn't want to play for this team anymore.

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol how quickly 90% of the forum did a 180, tbh..

[RD2191]

:lol how quickly 90% of the forum did a 180, tbh..

Only us 10% know what's up, us elite posters. :wakeup

[spursistan]

6 fuckin points in a close game from the 19 millions man? are you kidding me? :lol

[Amuseddaysleeper]

:lol how quickly 90% of the forum did a 180, tbh..

Called this back in November, tbh

[SAGirl]

He's been missing from more than just this one game unfortunately. You know it's been bad when you distinctly recall the only really good scoring game he had bc it stands out around a pool of mediocrity. He shot well against the Magic and the game was over early. ... He's been at 40% since 1/21 last I checked and I picked that day in arbitrary fashion bc of the Gasol injury. Luckily he does a lot of other things so it's tough to complain about any particular single bad shooting night, but when he's paid like a star and supposed to carry the scoring weight nightly and it doesn't happen with any regularity it's a worry. It won't surprise to see Pau back in the SL if it continues.

I am hoping dude bounces back but it's been a while oF me hoping that.

Hos crucial is it for him to hit a stride at this point and is he going to?

[TD 21]

Him and the team need to meet half way. On the one hand, he needs to take (partial) ownership of this team and stop worrying about ruffling feathers and stepping on toes. I'm not suggesting making a spectacle, but he needs to let Leonard know that he's missing him wide open on a lot of pick and pops and he needs to get in the post, especially when he has a clear advantage and demand the damn ball. On the other hand, I don't care how badly he's struggling, they need to stop treating him like he's an ancillary offensive player because they're more than likely not getting past the 2nd round if he remains that.

I still think his long term future with this team will be decided in the playoffs. Get to the WCF and give the Warriors a series and he's probably staying for the long haul. Lose to the Rockets in the WCSF (especially if it occurs in embarrassing fashion) and I could see both sides mutually wanting to end this.

[spursistan]

It is safe to say that this the new normal for Aldridge..

There is after all a logic to Clippers/Rockets fans licking their chops over who get to face the Spurs in 2nd round instead of the Warriors team-- even a wounded GS team..

[Amuseddaysleeper]

It is safe to say that this the new normal for Aldridge..

There is after all a logic to Clippers/Rockets fans licking their chops over who get to face the Spurs in 2nd round instead of the Warriors team-- even a wounded GS team..

Agreed, most of the other top Western teams would love to be in the Spurs bracket.

[SAGirl]

Well Lamarcus apparently still in a slump.

[Joseph Kony]

i feel bad for him tbh, he was trying hard to score yesterday but couldnt hit shit. i dont think hes lacking effort, probably just confidence issues at this point. not being an all star this year probably really bothered him and he is not mentally strong like Duncan or Kawhi and is letting it affect his game

[kaji157]

He will be Fine

[Amuseddaysleeper]

The only players safe on the roster should be Kawhi and Murray. It is staggering how much dead weight is on this team.

Need a summer of 2009 like hard reboot.