How do we convince Gasol to opt out so we can sign Cp3 [Archive]

Emperor

11-09-2016, 12:14 AM

Clippers currently have the best record in the West and just obliterated the Spurs at home a couple nights ago.. why on earth would CP3 want to leave Los Angeles for San Antonio right now..?

Because no matter how well the Clips do in the regular season, they will never make it past the second round but if he joins the Spurs he will be part of an organization that has gone beyond that. It's something for him to think about.

sasaint

11-09-2016, 12:33 AM

History is absolutely meaningless in the post-Duncan universe.

SAGirl

11-09-2016, 12:46 AM

History is absolutely meaningless in the post-Duncan universe.
On that note I do wonder if Spurs would be more inclined to trade players in this era than they previously were...

It's premature to say Gasol/LMA will not work out. Last season the SL in particular didn't start off well and they had to be bailed out by the bench a lot. LMA started deferential, with Danny also in a terrible shooting slump... this season it's something else.

By mid to end of December or so we should start to see some improvement or it would be time to raise the alarm. I haven't liked Pau on defense, but they have time go get it together yet...

sasaint

11-09-2016, 01:08 AM

On that note I do wonder if Spurs would be more inclined to trade players in this era than they previously were...

It's premature to say Gasol/LMA will not work out. Last season the SL in particular didn't start off well and they had to be bailed out by the bench a lot. LMA started deferential, with Danny also in a terrible shooting slump... this season it's something else.

By mid to end of December or so we should start to see some improvement or it would be time to raise the alarm. I haven't liked Pau on defense, but they have time go get it together yet...

Problem for me personally, the guys that have any real value are either untradeable (well, without sweetener) or are guys like LMA and Gasol who I just don't see Pop ever trading. I personally would like to retain Kawhi, Danny, Patty and Deadman. So, I think the Spurs are in a trade straight jacket unless they do something that I personally don't want to see or would be a bummer for me.

Chinook

11-09-2016, 01:23 AM

Best hope is an amnesty provision to get Parker out of there. The truth is that both he and Pau need to go for the Spurs to have room to offer a max contract.

GSH

11-09-2016, 02:15 AM

Because no matter how well the Clips do in the regular season, they will never make it past the second round

They could if they meet these Spurs in the second round.

Kawhitstorm

11-09-2016, 02:22 AM

Best hope is an amnesty provision to get Parker out of there. The truth is that both he and Pau need to go for the Spurs to have room to offer a max contract.

...or they could just trade Porker for a PG then use the Bird Rights to re-sign the newly acquired player.:wakeup

In any case, Pau would most likely opt-out if he was forced to come off the bench.

BG_Spurs_Fan

11-09-2016, 02:49 AM

It would be very difficult to go after CP3 and keep Dedmon too, unless he shits the bed for the rest of the season.

Nathan89

11-09-2016, 04:23 AM

I'll be livid if Pau and Parker prevent us from making a move. It was already a longshot to move Parker and now we have to deal with Pau.

DeRozan m8

11-09-2016, 04:54 AM

Clippers currently have the best record in the West and just obliterated the Spurs at home a couple nights ago.. why on earth would CP3 want to leave Los Angeles for San Antonio right now..?

Because there's more to life than 1 reg season game in early November, against a Spurs team that had played 7 games in 12 days and flown from coast to coast across the country.

Tbh

NameLess Scrub

11-09-2016, 09:40 AM

Just put him on the bench or tell him he's needed for defense purposes.

SpursforSix

11-09-2016, 09:45 AM

Introduce Tony to Pau's wife.

Maddog

11-09-2016, 09:48 AM

On that note I do wonder if Spurs would be more inclined to trade players in this era than they previously were...

It's premature to say Gasol/LMA will not work out. Last season the SL in particular didn't start off well and they had to be bailed out by the bench a lot. LMA started deferential, with Danny also in a terrible shooting slump... this season it's something else.

By mid to end of December or so we should start to see some improvement or it would be time to raise the alarm. I haven't liked Pau on defense, but they have time go get it together yet...

Way too early. Started 5-2 after opening with 7 games in 12 nights in 5 cities. The Clips look great, but they also have had the least change of any top team. At this time of year that means a lot.

Diego20

11-09-2016, 10:47 AM

Introduce Tony to Pau's wife.

Seventyniner

11-09-2016, 01:46 PM

Best hope is an amnesty provision to get Parker out of there. The truth is that both he and Pau need to go for the Spurs to have room to offer a max contract.

Isn't that supposed to be the plan in 2018 when both of them are FAs?

Chinook

11-09-2016, 01:52 PM

Isn't that supposed to be the plan in 2018 when both of them are FAs?

It probably is. But this thread was talking about CP3 in 2017

SAGirl

11-09-2016, 02:04 PM

Way too early. Started 5-2 after opening with 7 games in 12 nights in 5 cities. The Clips look great, but they also have had the least change of any top team. At this time of year that means a lot.It wasn't just the clippers game.. he hasn't been playing well in general IMO (and his stats back my eye test up)... but I did state it was too early same as you... so I guess we agree on something.

TheDoctor

11-09-2016, 02:23 PM

We won't need to convince anyone. Pau, Patty, Nico, B3RTANS, Tony and Manu are getting deported as soon as January tbh

lefty

11-09-2016, 02:25 PM

I think the new President has already taken care of that

Maddog

11-09-2016, 04:18 PM

We won't need to convince anyone. Pau, Patty, Nico, B3RTANS, Tony and Manu are getting deported as soon as January tbh

I think the new President has already taken care of that

Holy @#$%
You're right on. I hear Pau speaking fluent Spanish on the HEB commercial. Manu too. The must be Mexican bad hombres...

Cklbmk

11-09-2016, 08:13 PM

Best hope is an amnesty provision to get Parker out of there. The truth is that both he and Pau need to go for the Spurs to have room to offer a max contract.

I did the math the other day If we renouced everyone except simmons(Manu + Mills then irrelevants), picked up Simmons + Dedmons options we would be at 95mil.

Cap projected at 104-107mil. That leaves 9-12mil add in another 16mil dumping Gasol and I think 25-28mil is close enough to max to be competitve

Cklbmk

11-09-2016, 08:18 PM

It would be very difficult to go after CP3 and keep Dedmon too, unless he shits the bed for the rest of the season.

No it wouldn't. Cp3 would have to accept 25-28mil, Manu would have to retire or come back for min and Patty would be gone

SAGirl

11-09-2016, 08:25 PM

I did the math the other day If we renouced everyone except simmons(Manu + Mills then irrelevants), picked up Simmons + Dedmons options we would be at 95mil.

Cap projected at 104-107mil. That leaves 9-12mil add in another 16mil dumping Gasol and I think 25-28mil is close enough to max to be competitveSimmons and Dedmon don't have team options. Simmons is a RFA, basically Spurs have matching rights on him, but depending how the season overall goes for him, he will receive a raise. He's now on nearly min salary, so the difference will be significant. Dedmon has a player option that if he plays well, he will likely opt out of as well. You'd renounce a lot of guys that are in your bench on cheap contracts and some would be on their second seasons (Bertans, Murray, Forbes), therefore you'd miss on their improvement from season 1 to 2. It doesn't seem worth it to go around that way. In reality they have to shed guys in big contracts, like Tony and Pau. ....

Chinook

11-09-2016, 08:28 PM

Cklbmk

11-09-2016, 10:36 PM

Simmons and Dedmon don't have team options. Simmons is a RFA, basically Spurs have matching rights on him, but depending how the season overall goes for him, he will receive a raise. He's now on nearly min salary, so the difference will be significant. Dedmon has a player option that if he plays well, he will likely opt out of as well. You'd renounce a lot of guys that are in your bench on cheap contracts and some would be on their second seasons (Bertans, Murray, Forbes), therefore you'd miss on their improvement from season 1 to 2. It doesn't seem worth it to go around that way. In reality they have to shed guys in big contracts, like Tony and Pau. ....

Ya myb double listed Simmons. Intended to put Lee.

Misread Dedmon as TO instead of PO. Pop gotta work some magic with him, tell him he gets to start.

Those guys wouldn't be renounced. Only Mills, Manu, Lapro would be renounced.

BBR has Forbes + Bertans showing GTD next season already. Murray is year 1 rookie so he's GTD too.

SAGirl

11-09-2016, 10:46 PM

Ya myb double listed Simmons. Intended to put Lee.

Misread Dedmon as TO instead of PO. Pop gotta work some magic with him, tell him he gets to start.

Those guys wouldn't be renounced. Only Mills, Manu, Lapro would be renounced.

BBR has Forbes + Bertans showing GTD next season already. Murray is year 1 rookie so he's GTD too.Contract issues like these are really not my forte, but it is my impression you are overestimating the ability to sign a premier FA and retain guys you want. Lee/Dedmon both have PO and Simmons is a RFA who will get paid more. You can't sell those guys on discounts. For Lee it might be his last nice contract and Dedmon and Simmons have never gotten a big contract and they are both 27... both rely on athleticism a lot. They need to get paid next offseason. I don't have the numbers or anything like that, but keeping those 3 will cost you enough that you can't get a max FA if you don't shed others and we are not talking about your minimum contract guy others.

Cklbmk

11-09-2016, 10:47 PM

Sure, if you think $10 Million a year short is competitive. And I dunno if you included roster charges and the like. And the cap is projected at $102 Million. The cap for 2018 is $107 Million.

Really depends how bad he wants to win.

No roster charges would be required in this scenario as there would be enough players under contract

We could make a 25mil offer without much effort as long as Dedmon opts in and Lee is willing to opt out then resign for the min again(effectively costs him 54k).

When you take income tax into account for LA(13.3%) vs Texas(0%) it becomes the equivalent of 27mil from Clippers.

So really he'd be leaving 5-6mil on the table to try to win. I could totally see him do that to attempt to salvage his legacy

Cklbmk

11-09-2016, 10:49 PM

Contract issues like these are really not my forte, but it is my impression you are overestimating the ability to sign a premier FA and retain guys you want. Lee/Dedmon both have PO and Simmons is a RFA who will get paid more. You can't sell those guys on discounts. For Lee it might be his last nice contract and Dedmon and Simmons have never gotten a big contract and they are both 27... both rely on athleticism a lot. They need to get paid next offseason. I don't have the numbers or anything like that, but keeping those 3 will cost you enough that you can't get a max FA if you don't shed others and we are not talking about your minimum contract guy others.

What simmons gets paid is largely irrelevant do to his tiny cap hold. They can sign him last and completely ignore that. Lee could create us an extra 1mil by opting out then resigning for the min instead of opting in.

Dedmon is the only real issue in this scenario.

SAGirl

11-09-2016, 10:52 PM

What simmons gets paid is largely irrelevant do to his tiny cap hold. They can sign him last and completely ignore that. Lee could create us an extra 1mil by opting out then resigning for the min instead of opting in.

Dedmon is the only real issue in this scenario.You assume Lee would accept the min. I doubt that. You assume Simmons will not get offers right away with FA starting, but I think for a star if you are intent on it and it's a real possibility you risk him.. (kind of like what happpened with Cojo)

sasaint

11-09-2016, 10:53 PM

Contract issues like these are really not my forte, but it is my impression you are overestimating the ability to sign a premier FA and retain guys you want. Lee/Dedmon both have PO and Simmons is a RFA who will get paid more. You can't sell those guys on discounts. For Lee it might be his last nice contract and Dedmon and Simmons have never gotten a big contract and they are both 27... both rely on athleticism a lot. They need to get paid next offseason. I don't have the numbers or anything like that, but keeping those 3 will cost you enough that you can't get a max FA if you don't shed others and we are not talking about your minimum contract guy others.

All the talk about a max FA troubles me. First, I don't think aside from LMA, SA ever was or will be a max FA destination. But more than that, I think that the Spurs have too many holes to fill to lose guys you think would walk in order to sign some unnamed max FA.

Cklbmk

11-09-2016, 10:55 PM

You assume Lee would accept the min. I doubt that. You assume Simmons will not get offers right away with FA starting, but I think for a star if you are intent on it and it's a real possibility you risk him.. (kind of like what happpened with Cojo)

Simmons would have to know h'd be taken care of. I think he'd be willing to wait if the Spurs were like hey we're gonna retain you just need you to wait til we line everything else up. We won't dick you on the contract etc.

I am assuming Lee would accept the min since I think he came here for a reason. I'm fairly certain he could have got more than the min this year.

Chinook

11-09-2016, 10:57 PM

Really depends how bad he wants to win.

No roster charges would be required in this scenario as there would be enough players under contract

We could make a 25mil offer without much effort as long as Dedmon opts in and Lee is willing to opt out then resign for the min again(effectively costs him 54k).

When you take income tax into account for LA(13.3%) vs Texas(0%) it becomes the equivalent of 27mil from Clippers.

So really he'd be leaving 5-6mil on the table to try to win. I could totally see him do that to attempt to salvage his legacy

First, if Dedmon is willing to take his offer (he won't be), why not have him also opt out and re-sign for the RE? May as well optimize if we're going to talk about best-case scenarios.

Second, the tax system doesn't work that way. You pay for where you play, not where you're based. So it ends up being a much smaller difference than you assume.

Third, are you accounting for Bertans', Forbes', Murray's and Simmons' deals spiking with the new CBA? The team would have about $3 Million less in that scenario. And yes, their contract would be adjusted upward to match the new min.

This is about what your scenario would look like:

Name
2017-18

LaMarcus Aldridge
$21,461,010

Kawhi Leonard
$18,868,625

Dewane Dedmon
$3,000,000

Tony Parker
$15,453,126

Danny Green
$10,000,000

Tim Duncan (stretched)
$1,881,250

Kyle Anderson
$2,151,704

Livio Jean-Charles (waived)
$414,080

Dejounte Murray
$1,357,874

Jonathan Simmons
$1,522,119

Bryn Forbes
$1,357,874

Davis Bertans
$1,357,874

Roster Charge
$843,740

Roster Charge
$843,740

Total
$80,513,015

So we're talking like $21.5 Million in cap space

Cklbmk

11-09-2016, 10:57 PM

All the talk about a max FA troubles me. First, I don't think aside from LMA, SA ever was or will be a max FA destination. But more than that, I think that the Spurs have too many holes to fill to lose guys you think would walk in order to sign some unnamed max FA.

1. They wouldn't have to let anyone walk prior to receiving a commitment from said max FA.

2. We would have 12 players under contract and the only real hole would be backup C assuming LMA refused to be backup C.

Cklbmk

11-09-2016, 11:01 PM

First, if Dedmon is willing to take his offer (he won't be), why not have him also opt out and re-sign for the RE? May as well optimize if we're going to talk about best-case scenarios.

Second, the tax system doesn't work that way. You pay for where you play, not where you're based. So it ends up being a much smaller difference than you assume.

Third, are you accounting for Bertans', Forbes', Murray's and Simmons' deals spiking with the new CBA? The team would have about $3 Million less in that scenario. And yes, their contract would be adjusted upward to match the new min.

This is about what your scenario would look like:

Name
2017-18

LaMarcus Aldridge
$21,461,010

Kawhi Leonard
$18,868,625

Dewane Dedmon
$3,000,000

Tony Parker
$15,453,126

Danny Green
$10,000,000

Tim Duncan (stretched)
$1,881,250

Kyle Anderson
$2,151,704

Livio Jean-Charles (waived)
$414,080

Dejounte Murray
$1,357,874

Jonathan Simmons
$1,522,119

Bryn Forbes
$1,357,874

Davis Bertans
$1,357,874

Roster Charge
$843,740

Roster Charge
$843,740

Total
$80,513,015

So we're talking like $21.5 Million in cap space

No I calculated income tax correctly. I calculated it at half which is the amount of home games. It totals to 6.65% difference between LA and Texas.

Bertans and Forbes contracts are incorrect(905k each) as are the roster charges(550k and we'd only need 1). You're only required 12 players.

edit:

Also Murrays contract is only 1,233,240

and Simmons cap hold is 1,093,295

MultiTroll

11-09-2016, 11:04 PM

He looks tired.
Going thru the motions.

SAGirl

11-10-2016, 12:13 AM

Frankly Gasol is not pulling his worth.
Food for thought.

Splits

11-10-2016, 12:14 AM

Food for thought.

I'd be happy to feed you

Chinook

11-10-2016, 12:23 AM

No I calculated income tax correctly. I calculated it at half which is the amount of home games. It totals to 6.65% difference between LA and Texas.

Bertans and Forbes contracts are incorrect(905k each) as are the roster charges(550k and we'd only need 1). You're only required 12 players.

edit:

Also Murrays contract is only 1,233,240

and Simmons cap hold is 1,093,295

No. You aren't accounting for the CBA. All min deals are increasing by 50 percent. That is retroactive. There's a reason why I mentioned that in your calculations. All deals will bump up to at least the min, as was the case for Hill in 2009-2010. And we have no idea what Simmons' cap hold will be. It could be up to like $3 Million, especially if he keeps getting around 20 mpg. And count the players. You need two roster charges. Paul doesn't count as one.

And no, it's not just home games that account for tax, but it's close enough, I guess. It should be more expensive than that to play for LAC, because they play Cali teams in their division and the Spurs play Texas and TN teams.

Cklbmk

11-10-2016, 08:41 AM

No. You aren't accounting for the CBA. All min deals are increasing by 50 percent. That is retroactive. There's a reason why I mentioned that in your calculations. All deals will bump up to at least the min, as was the case for Hill in 2009-2010. And we have no idea what Simmons' cap hold will be. It could be up to like $3 Million, especially if he keeps getting around 20 mpg. And count the players. You need two roster charges. Paul doesn't count as one.

And no, it's not just home games that account for tax, but it's close enough, I guess. It should be more expensive than that to play for LAC, because they play Cali teams in their division and the Spurs play Texas and TN teams.

Where are you getting 50% increase on min from? I've found nothing but articles that things might happen with new CBA, nothing definitive

Chinook

11-10-2016, 08:45 AM

Where are you getting 50% increase on min from? I've found nothing but articles that things might happen with new CBA, nothing definitive

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/projecting-cap-space-under-potential-labor-deal/

The working assumption is that minimum salaries, exceptions and rookie-scale contracts for first-round picks will jump by roughly 50 percent.

When calculating cap space, teams are charged a rookie-minimum salary for every open roster spot through 12 players. The current CBA dictates next season’s minimum to be $562,493, but it could scale up by 50 percent to $843,740.

A team with eight players would have $1.1 million total in four roster charges based on the current rules. That would jump to $2.2 million with a higher minimum salary—offsetting a $1 million bump in the NBA’s salary cap.

There are multiple news pieces about the increase, but that analysis article breaks down the implications on cap space, so I decided to link that.