Is Kawhi Leonard the most overrated player in the league?

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Don't get me wrong I love Kawhi. He is the best two way player in the league. But PATRO need to realize his offensive game is average at best. Forcing him to win games with the ball in his hands is asking too much. Manu or Parker should handle the balll in the waning seconds to set up other players like Kawhi.

[cjw]

Passing is not his forte, but is super efficient offensively. He got absolutely hacked on the last play. Even BSPN announcers agree.

[timtonymanu]

Stupid thread, the Spurs have no good playmakers so that's why Leonard takes the load. It's not his fault his 2nd and 3rd options are both soft pussies.

[RD2191]

Stupid thread, the Spurs have no good playmakers so that's why Leonard takes the load. It's not his fault his 2nd and 3rd options are both soft pussies.
Tbh

[Arcadian]

What the hell, no.

[spurraider21]

Not at all. But the Spurs need to do a better job of helping him out particularly at the end of games.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Stupid thread, the Spurs have no good playmakers so that's why Leonard takes the load. It's not his fault his 2nd and 3rd options are both soft pussies.
An alpha should be a good playmaker. Rockets have one in harden and he pulled off the win.

[timtonymanu]

An alpha should be a good playmaker. Rockets have one in harden and he pulled off the win.

Leonard has never been a natural playmaker. You might as well say Harden isn't an alpha because of his defense. Gtfo here

[HarlemHeat37]

Just to put an end to this thread, I'd like to remind everybody that OP has repeatedly said that Kyle Anderson would be a better NBA player than Kawhi, tbh:lol

[YGWHI]

But PATRO need to realize his offensive game is average at best.

What a stupid troll. He's one of the most efficient and versatile scorers in the league, putting over 28 ppg after this game, but sure, he's average...


Forcing him to win games with the ball in his hands is asking too much.
When he won for us the game in the 4th quarter in Sacramento and Miami you don't say anything, right?

[kaji157]

Just to put an end to this thread, I'd like to remind everybody that OP has repeatedly said that Kyle Anderson would be a better NBA player than Kawhi, tbh:lol

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kDhCJqDfNqQ/TQ1Z36R_vFI/AAAAAAAABug/vfb83-FEyFQ/s1600/low2.jpg

[YGWHI]

Not at all. But the Spurs need to do a better job of helping him out particularly at the end of games.

Spurs need to do a better job of helping him with a 2nd scorer...LMA 5-15, Manu 1-7, both are shooting awful.

And a bit of rim protection of Gasol/Lee/Dedmon would help, too

[dabom]

Just to put an end to this thread, I'd like to remind everybody that OP has repeatedly said that Kyle Anderson would be a better NBA player than Kawhi, tbh:lol

He also didn't know simple game stats tbh. :lol

[LongtimeSpursFan]

He also didn't know simple game stats tbh. :lol

Stats also said Trump was going to lose last night. Someone that really knows basketball understands that the eye test is more important. And from what I see Kawhi just doesn't have it.

[dabom]

Stats also said Trump was going to lose last night. Someone that really knows basketball understands that the eye test is more important. And from what I see Kawhi just doesn't have it.

:lol

[Gutter92]

I don't think you know the definition of "average at best"...Kawhi is top 8 in scoring (before tonight) and every player above him averages at minimum 1 more shot than him...

Idiot...

[Nathan89]

One of the most efficient offensive player in the league is only "average".:lmao

[Darius Bieber]

Stupid thread, the Spurs have no good playmakers so that's why Leonard takes the load. It's not his fault his 2nd and 3rd options are both soft pussies.

[Cry Havoc]

Don't get me wrong I love Kawhi. He is the best two way player in the league. But PATRO need to realize his offensive game is average at best. Forcing him to win games with the ball in his hands is asking too much. Manu or Parker should handle the balll in the waning seconds to set up other players like Kawhi.

Kawhi has led the NBA in PER this entire season.

Stop posting.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Kawhi has led the NBA in PER this entire season.
Stop posting.

I don't care about PER. They are 5-4 to start season. One of the worst starts since Tim Duncan came on board. They also haven't won a title or advanced deep in playoffs since it became his team. SMH...PER

[timtonymanu]

I don't care about PER. They are 5-4 to start season. One of the worst starts since Tim Duncan came on board. They also haven't won a title or advanced deep in playoffs since it became his team. SMH...PER

5-3. Come on, old man.

[YGWHI]

I don't care about PER. They are 5-4 to start season. One of the worst starts since Tim Duncan came on board. They also haven't won a title or advanced deep in playoffs since it became his team. SMH...PER

You don't care about him being #1/2 on PER this season, an offensive oriented stat, but then you say that Kawhi is just average on offense...

You can't make a point, stupid troll.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

You don't care about him being #1/2 on PER this season, an offensive oriented stat, but then you say that Kawhi is just average on offense...

You can't make a point, stupid troll.


Harden closed out game offensively better than Kawhi.

[YGWHI]

Harden closed out game offensively better than Kawhi.
:lol

Kawhi didn't close well this season??

What a clown.

[Hoops Czar]

Passing is not his forte, but is super efficient offensively. He got absolutely hacked on the last play. Even BSPN announcers agree.

Then Pop shouldn't have him playing point forward.

[YGWHI]

Then Pop shouldn't have him playing point forward.

Pop shouldn't play Pau as rim protector, shouldn't play Manu as closer anymore, shouldn't play Kyle over Danny Green, shouldn't play Parker against elite PGs...

Pop should find answers for all those things before...Kawhi's the least of Spurs' issues.

[cjw]

Then Pop shouldn't have him playing point forward.

Propose an alternative?

Pau and Aldridge weren't working running through post. Manu couldn't shoot tonight. Mills had good assist total but too erratic to handle end of game situations with ball.

Doesn't leave much choice. Or could be part of his learning process

[Hoops Czar]

Pop shouldn't play Pau as rim protector

And where should Pop stick his C?


shouldn't play Manu as closer anymore

Who should take Manu's place? Parker who you bitch about every time he touches the ball in the 4th quarter or Patty Mills, who coincidentally was on the floor with Manu. Btw, Kawhi closed the game.


shouldn't play Kyle over Danny Green, shouldn't play Parker against elite PGs...

Danny can't play 48 minutes a game. Who would you rather have in there guarding elite pgs? Manu, who shouldn't be on the floor closing games according to you or Patty Mills who's defense isn't any better than Parker's.


Pop should find answers for all those things before...

It's called loyalty >>>> winning basketball games. A complete roster re-construction fail by the PATFO. Pop can't squeeze blood from a turnip. The roster is fatally flawed and THE PROBLEM is that the Spurs are too reliant on Leonard to do everything because the Spur's roster in itself lacks versatility, fluidity and most of all TALENT.

[Hoops Czar]

Propose an alternative?

Pau and Aldridge weren't working running through post. Manu couldn't shoot tonight. Mills had good assist total but too erratic to handle end of game situations with ball.

Doesn't leave much choice. Or could be part of his learning process

It's a fatally flawed roster but the Spurs need ball movement and for that to happen, the ball has to be in the hands of a passer otherwise, it's going to lead to ISO's, post ups and mid-range jumpshots.

[YGWHI]

It's a fatally flawed roster but the Spurs need ball movement and for that to happen, the ball has to be in the hands of a passer otherwise, it's going to lead to ISO's, post ups and mid-range jumpshots.
Do the Spurs have a decent point guard/sg who can pass the ball and doesn't look washed against other guards in the West Conference? No.

So they already are an Iso/mid-range shooting team.

For the record, in the 67 wins of last season, they were the same team, but the defense was way better.

[spurs10]

Stats also said Trump was going to lose last night. Someone that really knows basketball understands that the eye test is more important. And from what I see Kawhi just doesn't have it. You might not have realistic expectations. He's scoring incredible numbers, but it doesn't seem like it sometime because of games like tonight. He almost had it, but it wasn't to be.


I don't care about PER. They are 5-4 to start season. One of the worst starts since Tim Duncan came on board. They also haven't won a title or advanced deep in playoffs since it became his team. SMH...PER It's not 5-4, it's 5-3. They will improve with every game. Tonight wasn't without merit. Yeah we lost, but we got further on with how they play together. It's a work in progress.

[Hoops Czar]

Do the Spurs have a decent guard who can pass the ball and doesn't look washed against other guards in the West Conference? No.

So they already are an Iso/mid-range shooting team.

For the record, in the 67 wins of last season, they were the same team, but the defense was way better.

Why did you single out the western conference? At least make those guards earn their paychecks. What's the point of playing Kawhi at the point if he doesn't get other players involved in the offense? And to be fair, last year was a spectacular flop if you look past the meaningless regular season wins total. Also, the only major change to the roster from last year was Pau Gasol in place of 39 year old Duncan with bad knees. That in itself shouldn't account for how bad the defense has been this season.

[YGWHI]

What's the point of playing Kawhi at the point if he doesn't get other players involved in the offense?
If Pop gives him the ball to close a game doesn't mean that Kawhi is playing at point.

I still watch Patty/Manu/even Kyle playing at point with Kawhi on the floor.


That in itself shouldn't account for how bad the defense has been this season.

Spurs defense is taking a huge step back with Pau on the floor, Parker/Manu are one year older, the 2nd best defender on the team was injured, unlike last season LMA is making zero effort on D, Dedmon/Lee/Bertans in their first games with the team...

[poeticism707]

Stupid thread, the Spurs have no good playmakers so that's why Leonard takes the load. It's not his fault his 2nd and 3rd options are both soft pussies.

This.

[gambit1990]

Just to put an end to this thread, I'd like to remind everybody that OP has repeatedly said that Kyle Anderson would be a better NBA player than Kawhi, tbh:lol
you gotta be kidding :lol

[ElNono]

top 5 in the league, IMO... these teams has a bunch of flaws, but Kawhi isn't one of them...

[minuzzo21]

No.

[Captivus]

LMA is!

[Fireball]

top 5 in the league, IMO... these teams has a bunch of flaws, but Kawhi isn't one of them...

[bic50]

It looked like spurs were getting killed on the boards last night. Aside from lee who look to be atlesst putting in effort.

[bic50]

Harden closed out game offensively better than Kawhi.
Did you really say that Kyle Anderson would be a better player then kawhi?

[MI21]

Aldridge is fitting this bill at the moment, not Kawhi. Hopefully he returns to his Top 15 player status like he was after the All-Star break last season because at the moment dude is playing like a below average starter tbh

I think Pop is definitely putting Kawhi in some positions that are new to help him grow, particularly the playmaking side of things and there are growing pains, but I wouldn't confuse that with him being "overrated". It will help in the end.

[Cry Havoc]

Harden closed out game offensively better than Kawhi.

Yeah, let's trade him straight up for Harden. We can give up 115 points per game! Because Harden has won so many titles right?

It's 8 games into the season. Get a fucking grip.

[RD2191]

I'll be honest, kawhi hasn't been playing up to his standards these past few games but I'll give him a pass (for now) since this is the first time that's he's been the true #1 option for the Spurs. He's got a ways to go and the season is young so let's just sit back and watch kawhi and the spurs get better.

[testies]

Kawhi has a terrible, ugly game. Shut the fuck up about statistics, basketball is about eye test. He just is not good enough offensively to run pick n rolls, he dribbles looking at the floor, we got kicked out of 2 playoffs in a row because Poop tries to force him into some offensive leader.

Watching prime Manu and Parker with beautiful european fundamentals running our offense, to this american simpleton is a huge drop off in quality and the #1 reason why we're 1st round fodder in last years.

[313]

Testies dropping the truth nuke on the krew ^

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Did you really say that Kyle Anderson would be a better player then kawhi?

Anderson has better offensive skill that Kawhi. He can dribble, penetrate, pass, set up players, understands matchups, easily extend over defender on jump shots or low post work, has better fundamentals in terms of footwork and dribbling (Kawhi dribbles too high in traffic) etc

[dabom]

Anderson has better offensive skill that Kawhi. He can dribble, penetrate, pass, set up players, understands matchups, easily extend over defender on jump shots or low post work, has better fundamentals in terms of footwork and dribbling (Kawhi dribbles too high in traffic) etc

:lmao

[dabom]

Kawhi has elite footwork. Jordan/Kobe footwork. A Jordan mid-range game. Efficient shooting. WTF are you smoking. :lol

[cd98]

This thread is whack. He's one of the top 5 players in the league and he should take the last shot. Every superstar misses game enders. Just because he missed you can't downgrade him. He'll have plenty of makes as the season progresses. The problem is not that our superstar is not superstar enough, the problem is that we have atrocious team defense.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

He also didn't know simple game stats tbh. :lol

Kahwi had a -12 last night. I'm not sure what that means but he had the lowest on team. Is that good or bad?

[dabom]

Kahwi had a -12 last night. I'm not sure what that means but he had the lowest on team. Is that good or bad?


Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1.
Chris Paul (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html) • LAC
.438


2.
Kawhi Leonard (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html) • SAS
.341


3.
James Harden (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html) • HOU
.328


4.
Kevin Durant (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html) • GSW
.287


5.
Blake Griffin (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/griffbl01.html) • LAC
.287









.224




Box Plus/Minus
1.
Chris Paul (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/paulch01.html) • LAC
18.2


2.
Russell Westbrook (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html) • OKC
15.7


3.
James Harden (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html) • HOU
12.9


4.
Kawhi Leonard (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html) • SAS
11.4

[$pursDynasty]

nope but Raymond is. Was looking at #NBARank (the Kingslayer is in the top 5 revealed Friday the 11th) and they have Raymond listed at 14 above Klay. Don't love either but Klay is exceptional at shooting. Raymond to me is the ultimate complimentary player, on a team with superstars he helps both the stars and the roll players. However if you were just starting a team from scratch I don't know if Raymond would be in my top 40 much less #14. Without superior talent on your squad he will just be the feisty leader that probably pisses off his teammates always in the lottery. He could however work wonders with say an Anthony Davis or whatever ultra star you put him with. As for Kiwi he is developing into a top 10 player on offense and is the reigning and defending dumdada 2x DPOY. The only other player that can dominate like that on both sides of the floor is LBJ, when he wants to.

[$pursDynasty]

I'll be honest, kawhi hasn't been playing up to his standards these past few games but I'll give him a pass (for now) since this is the first time that's he's been the true #1 option for the Spurs. He's got a ways to go and the season is young so let's just sit back and watch kawhi and the spurs get better.
RD it's because despite popular on ST opinion, he plays better alongside the "head of the snake". The starter's offense isn't flowing as well without MVParker in there and Patty's absence from the bench mob is very obvious as well.

[sasaint]

RD it's because despite popular on ST opinion, he plays better alongside the "head of the snake". The starter's offense isn't flowing as well without MVParker in there and Patty's absence from the bench mob is very obvious as well.

Tony should be back very soon, so we shall see... All Spurs fans should hope you are right.

[james evans]

Just to put an end to this thread, I'd like to remind everybody that OP has repeatedly said that Kyle Anderson would be a better NBA player than Kawhi, tbh:lol
what????

[r0drig0lac]

Anderson has better offensive skill that Kawhi. He can dribble, penetrate, pass, set up players, understands matchups, easily extend over defender on jump shots or low post work, has better fundamentals in terms of footwork and dribbling (Kawhi dribbles too high in traffic) etc

really?

[Rob123]

Stupid thread, the Spurs have no good playmakers so that's why Leonard takes the load. It's not his fault his 2nd and 3rd options are both soft pussies.

Stupid comment. Houston doesn't have any play makers for harden. He didn't seem to have an issue.

[HarlemHeat37]

Stupid comment. Houston doesn't have any play makers for harden. He didn't seem to have an issue.

Harden is a natural guard, he has been his entire career..he has essentially been a PG since day one(even if he wasn't officially listed at the 1), going back to college..

Kawhi is a converted perimeter player that was projected to be a Shawn Marion-type in the NBA, he's never going to be a natural playmaker or point-forward..the Spurs will never succeed if they're asking him to be Lebron, it's not going to work..this team desperately needs a real PG..

[coachmac87]

Only issue I have with Kawhi is he does tend to be looking for fouls on his jumpers to frequently..he's gotten some calls and he's getting to the line but you cannot rely on refs to bail you out of a bad shot..

Other than that he's still a top 3 MVP candidate and there's nothing overrated about that

[ducks]

Another poor outing

[LongtimeSpursFan]

He's never going to be a great scorer but definitely a good one. And with his defense he can be a top 15 player every season.

[YGWHI]

He's never going to be a great scorer but definitely a good one. And with his defense he can be a top 15 player every season.

Top 15...Stop trolling :lmao

802736912180117504

802290692416479232

800022358106972160

"But he can't run pick and rolls...He can't drive.. :cry "

:lmao


91 percentile in total offense this season...He's definitely Top 5 in the league.

[midnightpulp]

Kawhi has a terrible, ugly game. Shut the fuck up about statistics, basketball is about eye test. He just is not good enough offensively to run pick n rolls, he dribbles looking at the floor, we got kicked out of 2 playoffs in a row because Poop tries to force him into some offensive leader.

Watching prime Manu and Parker with beautiful european fundamentals running our offense, to this american simpleton is a huge drop off in quality and the #1 reason why we're 1st round fodder in last years.

:lmao

Whose troll is this?

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Top 15...Stop trolling :lmao

802736912180117504

802290692416479232

800022358106972160

"But he can't run pick and rolls...He can't drive.. :cry "

:lmao


91 percentile in total offense this season...He's definitely Top 5 in the league.


Come on man. Opposing teams don't even try to double team him. That's why those stats I never heard of are skewed. He's not and never will be a scorer. And that's okay.

[SupremeGuy]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/004/866/YallN1ggazPostinInATrollThread.jpg

[TheMulletMan3000]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/844/770/e9d.jpg

[DAF86]

Kawhi is obviously awesome for every era, but if he played in the 90's he would be a top 10 player of all time, tbh.

[daslicer]

Kawhi is obviously awesome for every era, but if he played in the 90's he would be a top 10 player of all time, tbh.

I don't see Kawhi being better than the guys who I listed below. Those guys were top 10 players throughout the 90s. They also lead their teams to at least a Conference Finals. Then they are guys whose careers trajectories were altered due to injuries that were more talented than Kawhi ala Penny Hardaway,Grant Hill, Larry Johnson.
Jordan
Robinson
Olajuwon
Ewing
Shaq
Malone
Drexler
Barkley
Mourning
Prime Kemp

[Chinook]

Points per shot is one of the most ridiculous, misleading stats out there. I am actually pretty happy with Kawhi's recent offensive play, but the argument that he's uber-efficient has pretty much died. Dude has a TS% of 59.8 and an EFG% of 51.8. Those are perfectly acceptable numbers for a volume scorer. But the EFG% would put him at 160 in the league right now. I imagine that limiting the sample to guys who have played at least 100 minutes could pull him into the top 100. Good news (and completely separate) is that Green's efficiency is once again elite. He'd rank sixth in EFG% for players with more than 100 minutes. In TS%, Kawhi's currently 83rd, but I'm assuming that would be top 60 once you narrow the field down by minutes. Green is seventh once you filter it.

I think once the sample size is big enough to balance out that poor stretch Kawhi had a week ago, he'll be at a good place.

[DAF86]

I don't see Kawhi being better than the guys who I listed below. Those guys were top 10 players throughout the 90s. They also lead their teams to at least a Conference Finals. Then they are guys whose careers trajectories were altered due to injuries that were more talented than Kawhi ala Penny Hardaway,Grant Hill, Larry Johnson.
Jordan
Robinson
Olajuwon
Ewing
Shaq
Malone
Drexler
Barkley
Mourning
Prime Kemp

6'7'' wing with 7' somehing wingsapn. Elite defender, 40% 3pt shooter, 90% FT shooter, 50% shooter from the field. Elite Post up game and Elite one on one scorer. He would have beasted on the post up/isolation style of the 90's.

If dudes that couldn't shoot like Hardaway and Grant Hill got hyped in the 90's, imagine the hype Kawhi would have got.

[Raven]

6'7'' wing with 7' somehing wingsapn. Elite defender, 40% 3pt shooter, 90% FT shooter, 50% shooter from the field. Elite Post up game and Elite one on one scorer. He would have beasted on the post up/isolation style of the 90's.

If dudes that couldn't shoot like Hardaway and Grant Hill got hyped in the 90's, imagine the hype Kawhi would have got.

Kawhi Leonard Has Largest Wingspan Ratio Of Any All-Star In Past 15 Years

[spursistan]

this shitty thread aside, Kawhi's efficiency this season- in part due to some bad shot selection -- leaves a lot to be desired..I want to see more of his post-ups instead of dribbling to tough spots and jacking-up ugly midrangers..

[dabom]

this shitty thread aside, Kawhi's efficiency this season- in part due to some bad shot selection -- leaves a lot to be desired..I want to see more of his post-ups instead of dribbling to tough spots and jacking-up ugly midrangers..

His efficiency is great. Look at jordans TS%.

[Kawhitstorm]

Points per shot is one of the most ridiculous, misleading stats out there.

Why is it ridiculous? I understand that missed or made shots aren't mutually inclusive w/ getting to the line but PPS is a good way of highlighting scorers like Harden who could shoot 40% on 20 shots but still drop 30 which isn't something you can't say about Klay.

Per 100 possessions, Kawhi's scoring efficiency is on par w/ what Harden did last season when he led the league in TOTAL points & he's getting to the line at the same rate as Carmelo was at the same age.

[Kawhitstorm]

this shitty thread aside, Kawhi's efficiency this season- in part due to some bad shot selection -- leaves a lot to be desired..I want to see more of his post-ups instead of dribbling to tough spots and jacking-up ugly midrangers..

It seems like Pop is more intent on posting up Softridge & Kawhi is usually camping in the corner when Porker is running the show.

[Chinook]

Why is it ridiculous?

Because it ignores free throws, which use possessions just like shots do. TS% already factors that in free throws, and when you look at that, you don't get the misleading numbers.


Per 100 possessions, Kawhi's scoring efficiency is on par w/ what Harden did last season when he led the league in TOTAL points & he's getting to the line at the same rate as Carmelo was at the same age.

You're misinterpreting the stat. It's not the players individual PPP multiplied by 100. It's the average possession for the team when the player is on the floor multiplied by 100. Of course Kawhi is on par with Harden and Prime Melo. He spent half the season dominating the ball and is still the go-to guy.

[TD 21]

this shitty thread aside, Kawhi's efficiency this season- in part due to some bad shot selection -- leaves a lot to be desired..I want to see more of his post-ups instead of dribbling to tough spots and jacking-up ugly midrangers..

:tu

[Kawhitstorm]

Because it ignores free throws, which use possessions just like shots do. TS% already factors that in free throws, and when you look at that, you don't get the misleading numbers.

TS% is a good way to highlight elite shooters like Korver but not so when it comes to scorers such as DeRozan.

Usage is also tricky b/c guys like Korver could get more touches but it won't translate into usage percentage b/c they are just going to pass the ball rather than making plays which might lead to empty possessions. High usage/volume scorers who don't get to the line such as Softridge also get exposed by PPP.

Carmelo for example has a higher usage rate & average more FGAs than Kawhi but has a much lower PPP b/c he doesn't get to the line.

[Chinook]

TS% is a good way to highlight elite shooters like Korver but not so when it comes to scorers such as DeRozan.

DeRozan is not an efficient scorer. He's not inefficient, but his 30.2 points on 29.7 possessions leaves a lot to be desired.


Usage is also tricky b/c guys like Korver could get more touches but it won't translate into usage percentage b/c they are just going to pass the ball rather than making plays which might lead to empty possessions. High usage/volume scorers who don't get to the line such as Softridge also get exposed by PPP.

Aldridge is doing just fine in terms of PPP he's averaging 18.4 points on 18.55 possessions. It's not great (.99 ppp) but it compares just fine with DeRozan (1.02). Kawhi is more efficient than either guy, getting 24.8 points on 23.05 possessions (1.08ppp), which is why I said his numbers were fine for a volume scorer. But that doesn't make points/shot less shitty of a stat.


Carmelo for example has a higher usage rate & average more FGAs than Kawhi but has a much lower PPP b/c he doesn't get to the line.

Melo's efficiency is fine as well for a volume guy, but he's not the shooter Kawhi is. That's a bigger deal than the free throws.

[Slippy]

this shitty thread aside, Kawhi's efficiency this season- in part due to some bad shot selection -- leaves a lot to be desired..I want to see more of his post-ups instead of dribbling to tough spots and jacking-up ugly midrangers..

Yap . Uglier is that no offense run, pull up three. Its falls short most times. If he pulls up around a screen where he gets a little breathing space then its usually money.

[YGWHI]

Opposing teams don't even try to double team him.
:lmao


He's not and never will be a scorer.
Last 5 games


24.2 ppg
7.4 rpg
4.8 a pg
1.4 stls
1.8 TOs
36 mpg

He's averaging almost what Tim did in his best scoring seasons...But sure "Kawhi isn't a scorer"

:lmao

[YGWHI]

Yap . Uglier is that no offense run, pull up three. Its falls short most times. If he pulls up around a screen where he gets a little breathing space then its usually money.

The issue is that Kawhi plays most minutes with LMA and he isn't a great screener. I like how Lee operates there with Kawhi and I'd like to see how Dedmon would do it...But in the starting lineup the shooters aren't getting great screening from bigs. Another area where we are missing Tim...and Splitter.

[dabom]

We'll that was fun while it lasted. :lmao

[YGWHI]

We'll that was fun while it lasted. :lmao

Someone here can't deal with criticism.

[YGWHI]

And I LOVE IT.

People getting so mad and lock threads for nothing.


:lol

[dabom]

And I LOVE IT.

People getting so mad and lock threads for nothing.


:lol

That dpg faggot. :lol

Most cuddled posters on this board tbh...

[YGWHI]

We have trolls here saying Kawhi's overrated, like threads where they called him retarded and...nothing was wrong.

I posted a list of Chinook's wrong takes in that thread and.... welll, we already know what happened with the thread.

So according to ST standards it's fine to insult a Spurs player but not to say a poster was wrong. Good to know it.

:lol

[FkLA]

Top 15...Stop trolling :lmao

802736912180117504

802290692416479232

800022358106972160

"But he can't run pick and rolls...He can't drive.. :cry "

:lmao


91 percentile in total offense this season...He's definitely Top 5 in the league.

http://static.politifact.com.s3.amazonaws.com/politifact/photos/PolitiFact-Ohio-True.jpg

[FkLA]

Seriously, if you don't think Kawhi is a great offensive player you're a complete moron. You don't have to be a once in a lifetime offensive player like KD to be great.

[TD 21]

Yap . Uglier is that no offense run, pull up three. Its falls short most times. If he pulls up around a screen where he gets a little breathing space then its usually money.

:tu



Someone here can't deal with criticism.


:lmao Calling someone else out for this when you're constantly crying every time someone critiques Leonard.

[AztecSpur]

You guys are really pink ass spoiled if you're calling out KL. Nobody expected him to be this good, and I mean nobody. Consider it a gift.

[YGWHI]

:lmao Calling someone else out for this when you're constantly crying every time someone critiques Leonard.

Tell me when I locked a thread for people criticizing Kawhi?

[YGWHI]

:lmao Calling someone else out for this when you're constantly crying every time someone critiques Leonard.

Tell me when I was hating on a favorite player's poster because that guy criticizes Kawhi?

[YGWHI]

:lmao Calling someone else out for this when you're constantly crying every time someone critiques Leonard.

No, I didn't do it.

I disagree with you when you say "I don't blame Kawhi BUT..." and then "Kawhi played well BUT..." Because that's incoherent. You can't say a guy plays well at the same time that you blame him for the loss.

I'm the first here to admit Kawhi's flaws but I'll continue posting that people are wrong every time if they say he's not a scorer or a top player, because HE IS one.

[TD 21]

No, I didn't do it.

I disagree with you when you say "I don't blame Kawhi BUT..." and then "Kawhi played well BUT..." Because that's incoherent. You can't say a guy plays well at the same time that you blame him for the loss.

I'm the first here to admit Kawhi's flaws but I'll continue posting that people are wrong every time if they say he's not a scorer or a top player, because HE IS one.

:lmao Melting down and further proving my point.

What I said could only be deemed incoherent by someone that lacks basic reading comprehension.

[dabom]

:lmao Melting down and further proving my point.

What I said could only be deemed incoherent by someone that lacks basic reading comprehension.

Yg is a savage poster dude...

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Leonard is better when he isn't the number one option.

[YGWHI]

What I said could only be deemed incoherent by someone that lacks basic reading comprehension.

Because blaming they guy who played well isn't incoherent, right?

[YGWHI]

Leonard is better when he isn't the number one option.

You were very quiet after Kawhi's great games in Charlotte and Boston, when he was the #1, and the team won on the road.

So it's good to have Kawhi as #1 just when Spurs win but not when they lose, right?

These stupid people...smh.

[Benoit]

Cant create for others

Has been outplayed by Matt Barnes in a series and shut down by Andre Roberson

Doesnt show up in big games when hes the #1 option

Cant penetrate or get by defenders

Gets bailed out by the whistle

Most overrated player in the league

[DarrinS]

Leonard is better when he isn't the number one option.

Get a new take, tbh

[Benoit]

Spurs havent been the same since Parker handed the reigns over

[Kawhitstorm]

Spurs havent been the same since Parker handed the reigns over

Duds haven't been the same since Bogut got injured.:cry

[Kawhitstorm]

Cant create for others

Has been outplayed by Matt Barnes in a series and shut down by Andre Roberson

Doesnt show up in big games when hes the #1 option

Cant penetrate or get by defenders

Gets bailed out by the whistle

Most overrated player in the league

rBNV9SW5fXU

[Kawhitstorm]

You were very quiet after Kawhi's great games in Charlotte and Boston, when he was the #1, and the team won on the road. .


Leonard leading Spurs on the road

Kawhi Leonard (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6450/kawhi-leonard) scored 19 points in the Spurs’ win over the Wizards in Washington improving their road record to 10-0 this season. Leonard has scored 258 points in those 10 road games. The only other players in the Spurs’ NBA history to score that many points in their first 10 road games of a season were George Gervin, who did it six times, and David Robinson, who did it three times. Gervin scored 344 points in his first 10 road games in 1981-82. The most points Robinson ever scored in his first 10 road games of a season was 293 in 1994-95.

[SuperCam]

shooting 46%, a career low. Not impressed, tbh

[LongtimeSpursFan]

You were very quiet after Kawhi's great games in Charlotte and Boston, when he was the #1, and the team won on the road.

So it's good to have Kawhi as #1 just when Spurs win but not when they lose, right?

These stupid people...smh.

You conveniently left out his performance in Washington. Is that because he shot 5/14 and 1/6 from 3pt line, three turnovers and forced up shots? Don't get me wrong I love Kawhi but a true elite player can't just show up 50 percent of games.

[YGWHI]

You conveniently left out his performance in Washington.

Like you his performances in Charlotte and Boston?

In Washington, he was struggling with his shot but still scored 19 points. And the team won.

In Boston Kawhi was the main reason for the victory. Remember our SL that night: Parker 7 points, Gasol 0 points, LMA 10 points in 4-12...Thank God for Kawhi, right?

[houston spurs fan]

You conveniently left out his performance in Washington. Is that because he shot 5/14 and 1/6 from 3pt line, three turnovers and forced up shots? Don't get me wrong I love Kawhi but a true elite player can't just show up 50 percent of games.
Fuck you Troll.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Fuck you Troll.

Troll I am not. I love Kawhi. Defensively he can create a lot of havoc but offensively he needs to realize his role and not hurt the team with jacking up shots or trying to create when nothing is there. We have plenty of offensive options that are available that he can utilize to make his game stronger.

[YGWHI]

We have plenty of offensive options that are available

:lmao

Plenty of options.

Except Kawhi and LMA, NO ONE can score 'consistently'.

Parker? 0-6, Danny? 1-4, 39 years old Manu??, Lee? 0-4, Gasol? once in a while...Just Patty. And Simms in a lucky night.

[YGWHI]

Troll I am not. I love Kawhi. Defensively he can create a lot of havoc but offensively he needs to realize his role

:lmao

You said before that his role on offense is being the #4 option behind LMA, Gasol and Parker. Yeah..."But but I'm a not a troll, I love him".

[houston spurs fan]

Troll I am not. I love Kawhi. Defensively he can create a lot of havoc but offensively he needs to realize his role and not hurt the team with jacking up shots or trying to create when nothing is there. We have plenty of offensive options that are available that he can utilize to make his game stronger.
You are the quintessential troll dude, give it up or just at least own up to it. You exist on This forum for dogging Kawhi and nobody takes your Schtick seriously...its old, burnt out like your age.

[MaNu4Tres]

What people here need to realize is theres a huge difference between a great scorer ( Kawhi) and a great shot creator ( Not Kawhi). Great shot creators like prime Manu/ TP, Bron, Curry, Harden tend to break down defenses and create high % looks for themselves AND teammates ( AND you CaN NOT go by sheer Assists per game to assess this-- you have to account hockey assists and times a pass leads to an open drive or an open drive & dish. Kawhi is never going to be that type of player. Kawhi has a hard time creating the needed seperation w/ his lack of foot speed and lack of acceleration w/ the ball in his hands. He physically puts a lot of energy with his upper body just fighting around corners to where hes out of control to a degree when he loses sight of his teammates and the court as he dribbles into congested space more often than not.

You can cry and scream and point to PPP in PnRs, but that stat is terrible because it does not account for PPP created off assists or hockey assists by his penetration. It only accounts for his looks -- which are created by his length & ability to use his body to create space for a contested mid range J or a jump hook after a reverse pivot and pump fakes.

Kawhi can lead this years team on the offensive end in usage with the ball in his hands and put up pretty stats and so can Aldridge, but Ill tell you right now, the Spurs will have a lower ceiling than what Spurs fans are used to with them two being the most responsible for the offense as they are only good at orchestrating offense for themselves. Defenses dont have to work as hard or move as much ( especially the weakside defense). They desperately need an upgrade at BOTH PG spots. Tony isnt as effective, and Patty isnt a creator.

[313]

Seriously, if you don't think Kawhi is a great offensive player you're a complete moron. You don't have to be a once in a lifetime offensive player like KD to be great.24 ppg on 45% and 3apg is not "great", it's good. Kawhi is a good offensive player, but I can throw a stick and hit 1000 guys who've averaged 24 ppg and 3apg. Now if he comes back and averages 30 next season then we can open this discussion back up, but for now, he's not there yet.

[hater]

He tends to overdribble and shoot shit shots.

We will never win anything with him as the only option.

And yeah, lamarcus is a pussy so we are a round 1 exit team at the moment. Kawhi is overrated but not by much

[NameLess Scrub]

What people here need to realize is theres a huge difference between a great scorer ( Kawhi) and a great shot creator ( Not Kawhi). Great shot creators like prime Manu/ TP, Bron, Curry, Harden tend to break down defenses and create high % looks for themselves AND teammates ( AND you CaN NOT go by sheer Assists per game to assess this-- you have to account hockey assists and times a pass leads to an open drive or an open drive & dish. Kawhi is never going to be that type of player. Kawhi has a hard time creating the needed seperation w/ his lack of foot speed and lack of acceleration w/ the ball in his hands. He physically puts a lot of energy with his upper body just fighting around corners to where hes out of control to a degree when he loses sight of his teammates and the court as he dribbles into congested space more often than not.

You can cry and scream and point to PPP in PnRs, but that stat is terrible because it does not account for PPP created off assists or hockey assists by his penetration. It only accounts for his looks -- which are created by his length & ability to use his body to create space for a contested mid range J or a jump hook after a reverse pivot and pump fakes.

Kawhi can lead this years team on the offensive end in usage with the ball in his hands and put up pretty stats and so can Aldridge, but Ill tell you right now, the Spurs will have a lower ceiling than what Spurs fans are used to with them two being the most responsible for the offense as they are only good at orchestrating offense for themselves. Defenses dont have to work as hard or move as much ( especially the weakside defense). They desperately need an upgrade at BOTH PG spots. Tony isnt as effective, and Patty isnt a creator.

[spursistan]

I'm a Kawhi fan, but I'm not a blind homer. Right now, he isn't even a Top 5 in the MVP race the way his efficiency has progressively plummeted after the first week..

Whether through better consistency (see Jimmy Butler, KD) or taking bigger loads and making teammates better (Westbrook/Harden/Lebron), half dozen guys have had a better seasons than him so far considering Leonard defensive impact has also regressed in the process..

It is part of the growings pains, guess; but if you would ask me to choose, i would take last season's Kawhi's 9-14 FG/8rebs/2ast/3stl/2blk nights over these too many 7-18/1reb/3ast/0blk outings we've witnessed the past three weeks..his shot for whatever reason has had a low arc recently..

[AFMadison]

Troll I am not. I love Kawhi. Defensively he can create a lot of havoc but offensively he needs to realize his role and not hurt the team with jacking up shots or trying to create when nothing is there. We have plenty of offensive options that are available that he can utilize to make his game stronger.

Well of course, it's a team sport, but Kawhi is the best player on the team. The offense should continue to run through him. I think personally he needs to be even more vocal, something I think he's improved on from last year. This team seems to have a bit more fire than the team last year, but still as a whole need to become more aggressive and physical. Keep that ball moving, but do it through Kawhi.

[AFMadison]

I'm a Kawhi fan, but I'm not a blind homer. Right now, he isn't even a Top 5 in the MVP race the way his efficiency has progressively plummeted after the first week..

Whether through better consistency (see Jimmy Butler, KD) or taking bigger loads and making teammates better (Westbrook/Harden/Lebron), half dozen guys have had a better seasons than him so far considering Leonard defensive impact has also regressed in the process..

It is part of the growings pains, guess; but if you would ask me to choose, i would take last season's Kawhi's 9-14 FG/8rebs/2ast/3stl/2blk nights over these too many 7-18/1reb/3ast/0blk outings we've witnessed the past three weeks..his shot for whatever reason has had a low arc recently..

It's part of the game, sometimes you hit a slump. Fortunately for us he's at least somewhat effective in his slumps. Let's not worry about a beginning of the season slump. I would much rather see it now than later.

[313]

Not sure why Spurs' offense sputtering at home but there's this:
Kawhi on road: 25. 8 ppg, 50.6%
Kawhi at home: 23 ppg, 39.7%

[SuperCam]

Jimmy Butler has over-taken Kawhi in almost all meaningful advanced stat categories:

#2 ORTG (Kiwi not in top 20)
#2 Offensive win shares (Kiwi #10)
#5 Win Shares (Kiwi #8)
#1 Win shares per 48 (Kiwi #10)
#6 BPM (Kiwi #12)
#5 OBMP (Kiwi #11)
#7 VORP (Kiwi #10)


Kawhi not even in top 20 for Defensive rating or DBPM :bang



Jimmy Buckets first team all NBA :wow Kiwi now 3rd team.



Dumb shit Wolfs not trading Wiggincancer for Buckets when they had the chance :lmao

[SAGirl]

I'm a Kawhi fan, but I'm not a blind homer. Right now, he isn't even a Top 5 in the MVP race the way his efficiency has progressively plummeted after the first week..

Whether through better consistency (see Jimmy Butler, KD) or taking bigger loads and making teammates better (Westbrook/Harden/Lebron), half dozen guys have had a better seasons than him so far considering Leonard defensive impact has also regressed in the process..

It is part of the growings pains, guess; but if you would ask me to choose, i would take last season's Kawhi's 9-14 FG/8rebs/2ast/3stl/2blk nights over these too many 7-18/1reb/3ast/0blk outings we've witnessed the past three weeks..his shot for whatever reason has had a low arc recently..
He is having to do too much bc of the lack of at least just one elite guard in the team but I agree with you. I find it hard to criticize him at all too bc he's come so far and progressed so much and is right now the best player in the team so I am very aware that without him this team wouldn't have this record at all and be completely out of the playoff picture. His efficiency has taken a hit though, he's having to force a number of very tough shots and although he has increased his assist rate, it's obvious that in a real championship team he can't be your best and sometimes only creator from the perimeter (bc Manu and/or Tony are shitting themselves and showing their age.)

It's a tough situation the team finds itself in with it's guard situation.

[AFMadison]

Jimmy Butler has over-taken Kawhi in almost all meaningful advanced stat categories:

#2 ORTG (Kiwi not in top 20)
#2 Offensive win shares (Kiwi #10)
#5 Win Shares (Kiwi #8)
#1 Win shares per 48 (Kiwi #10)
#6 BPM (Kiwi #12)
#5 OBMP (Kiwi #11)
#7 VORP (Kiwi #10)


Kawhi not even in top 20 for Defensive rating or DBPM :bang



Jimmy Buckets first team all NBA :wow Kiwi now 3rd team.



Dumb shit Wolfs not trading Wiggincancer for Buckets when they had the chance :lmao

You mean dumb shit RC drafting CoJo over Buckets.
Could have snagged Kawhi and Buckets in the same night.

[313]

You mean dumb shit RC drafting CoJo over Buckets.
Could have snagged Kawhi and Buckets in the same night.
Kawhi would've been a good backup

[313]

Jimmy Butler has over-taken Kawhi in almost all meaningful advanced stat categories:

#2 ORTG (Kiwi not in top 20)
#2 Offensive win shares (Kiwi #10)
#5 Win Shares (Kiwi #8)
#1 Win shares per 48 (Kiwi #10)
#6 BPM (Kiwi #12)
#5 OBMP (Kiwi #11)
#7 VORP (Kiwi #10)


Kawhi not even in top 20 for Defensive rating or DBPM :bang



Jimmy Buckets first team all NBA :wow Kiwi now 3rd team.



Dumb shit Wolfs not trading Wiggincancer for Buckets when they had the chance :lmao
Kiwi exposed when he can't hide behind Tim :wow

[313]

KAT dropped 47/18 tonight :wow

what it must be like to have a true franchise player :wow

[dabom]

Wolfettes. :lmao

[pgardn]

KL is on a team, not the Bulls or Timberwolves.

[cjw]

KAT dropped 47/18 tonight :wow

what it must be like to have a true franchise player :wow

All of that for a +7 in a home loss to the Knicks. Have you even seen the Wolves play? Those games are pickup games till crunchtime.

[YGWHI]

Jimmy Butler

Jimmy tonight .22 FG% and his team lost in Chicago against...Lakers.

I guess that every player can have bad games, right? Kawhi, too.

[YGWHI]

What people here need to realize is theres a huge difference between a great scorer ( Kawhi) and a great shot creator ( Not Kawhi).

I wonder who says that Kawhi is a great creator...He will never be one.

If he would be able to put 10 apg he would be better than LeBron and Kobe together. So no, it's pretty obvious Kawhi isn't a great playmaker.

But this thread is about people saying he isn't a scorer or an elite player. And he is.

[MaNu4Tres]

I wonder who says that Kawhi is a great creator...He will never be one.

If he would be that player he would be better than LeBron and Kobe together. So no, it's pretty obvious Kawhi isn't a great playmaker.

But this thread is about people saying he isn't a scorer, or an elite player. An he is one.

Weird how you deflected 90% of my post.

They type of scorer he is doesn't make teammates better. That's a problem moving forward if he's the lead dog when it comes to initiating offense and if you want this team to win another title.

He needs help, not more touches in PnRs. That's why this team will fail again with him having too big of a role offensively.

[YGWHI]

That's a problem moving forward if you want this team to win another title.

That wouldn't be a problem if this team would have a reliable and elite playmaker to help him. After all, he can't be the best in everything on this team.

Just let Kawhi to do what he know to do, score and defend. And bring a guard who can create for himself and others, who hard it can be?

[MaNu4Tres]

That wouldn't be a problem if this team would have a reliable and elite playmaker to help him. After all, he can't be the best in everything on this team.

Just let him to do what he know to do, score and defend. And bring a guard who can create for himself and others, who hard it can be?

Okay but it currently is a problem. And going to him more in PnRs only compounds it because the end result 90% of the time in that set is a contested shot for Kawhi or a reset. The other 10% of the time, he actually makes a pass for a decent shot or he finds a path to the rim because of a defensive mistake.

[YGWHI]

last season's Kawhi's 9-14 FG

Kawhi averaged 15 FGA last season and 21.2 ppg

In this season 17 FGA 24.6 ppg.

There is no excuse for his bad shooting nights but at some point of the season, he will overcome the slump.

[YGWHI]

Okay but it currently is a problem. And going to him more in PnRs only compounds it because the end result 90% of the time in that set is a contested shot for Kawhi or a reset. The other 10% of the time, he actually makes a pass for a decent shot or he finds a path to the rim because of a defensive mistake.

Pop almost eliminated Kawhi post-up game from the playbook, I guess the reasons were Pau's presence in the post, and the need to find an alternative for Parker/Manu being unplayable in big roles a whole season and playoffs.

Sadly, this team doesn't have more options.
Patty is really good but just like Kawhi, he's a scorer not a true creator. And LMA is the other player who has a high USG% but he's another scorer without great passing skills.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

I don't think he's overrated anymore. I think his overall level of play has dropped from that of a rank 3 or rank 4 player in the league to that of a rank 8 or rank 9 player in the league.

[jARS mEsH sEt]

I agree that if he had the playmaking skills of Lebron he'd be the best player in the league, even without his DPOY-level defense recovering from the mediocre level its been at for the past week or two.

If his DPOY-level defense resumes even with his shooting woes, he'll move back up to rank 5 or 6 in the league. If his super efficient offense comes back with his DPOY-level defense, he'll climb back to rank 3-4 in the league.

[Kawhitstorm]

Jimmy Butler has over-taken Kawhi in almost all meaningful advanced stat categories:

#2 ORTG (Kiwi not in top 20)
#2 Offensive win shares (Kiwi #10)
#5 Win Shares (Kiwi #8)
#1 Win shares per 48 (Kiwi #10)
#6 BPM (Kiwi #12)
#5 OBMP (Kiwi #11)
#7 VORP (Kiwi #10)


Butler has peaked early the past 2 seasons & started leaking after the ASG break while Kawhi has had the opposite trend.:toast

[Kawhitstorm]

Not sure why Spurs' offense sputtering at home but there's this:
Kawhi on road: 25. 8 ppg, 50.6%
Kawhi at home: 23 ppg, 39.7%

Best road player in the league, he loves to play in a hostile environment & silence the crowd.....just like the Spurs fans at the AT&T center.

[dabom]

Duncan always elevated his game in the playoffs. Glad to see Kawhi got that edge going. :tu

[YGWHI]

Best road player in the league, he loves to play in a hostile environment & silence the crowd.....just like the Spurs fans at the AT&T center.

I guess he doesn't find any motivation in playing at the AT&T Center, after all...he can't silence a muted crowd.

[TheGreatYacht]

Duncan always elevated his game in the playoffs. Glad to see Kawhi got that edge going. :tu
Where are you getting that conclusion from? Matt Barnes and Andre Roberson?!?! Duncan would never

[TheGreatYacht]

Jimmy Butler has over-taken Kawhi in almost all meaningful advanced stat categories:

#2 ORTG (Kiwi not in top 20)
#2 Offensive win shares (Kiwi #10)
#5 Win Shares (Kiwi #8)
#1 Win shares per 48 (Kiwi #10)
#6 BPM (Kiwi #12)
#5 OBMP (Kiwi #11)
#7 VORP (Kiwi #10)


Kawhi not even in top 20 for Defensive rating or DBPM :bang



Jimmy Buckets first team all NBA :wow Kiwi now 3rd team.



Dumb shit Wolfs not trading Wiggincancer for Buckets when they had the chance :lmao

Kiwi exposed when he can't hide behind Tim :wow
Meanwhile we have a bum trading buckets with Harrison Barnes smfh

[John Petrucci]

Meanwhile we have a bum trading buckets with Harrison Barnes smfh

Really surprised tbh. Looking like we might've really jumped the gun on this dude. I was completely convinced he was a top 3 player for a while. All that Mamba advice and instruction in the offseason must have screwed up the natural progression he was making with instruction from Chip and other more solid decision makers on the court.

Being that thoroughly outclassed by Jimmy Butler in advanced stats...ouch. Makes you appreciate TD that much more.

[TheGreatYacht]

Really surprised tbh. Looking like we might've really jumped the gun on this dude. I was completely convinced he was a top 3 player for a while.

Being that thoroughly outclassed by Jimmy Butler...ouch. Makes you appreciate TD that much more.
Tried telling people to stop comparing this guy to Jordan or they'll be greatly disappointed but they wouldn't listen smh. Hope he turns it around for the good of the team but damn.... he looks terrible on both ends

[Dre_7]

Really surprised tbh. Looking like we might've really jumped the gun on this dude. I was completely convinced he was a top 3 player for a while. All that Mamba advice and instruction in the offseason must have screwed up the natural progression he was making with instruction from Chip and other more solid decision makers on the court.

Being that thoroughly outclassed by Jimmy Butler in advanced stats...ouch. Makes you appreciate TD that much more.

Kobe didn't work with Kawhi in the offseason. :lol

[John Petrucci]

Kobe didn't work with Kawhi in the offseason. :lol

Well if he didn't he didn't :lol I had just seen it said so many places I thought it was probably true. Didn't DMC say it in an interview? Doesn't matter right now anyway. It's just the increased load that the Spurs expect him to take on as the "go to" guy. I always figured he'd be much better in 2017 than this year. It's a tough adjustment. That's why I don't think we have any shot this year at doing much in the postseason.

[Dre_7]

Well if he didn't he didn't :lol I had just seen it said so many places I thought it was probably true. Thanks. Don't think him taking advice or practicing with Kobe would completely alter his game that much anyway. It's just the increased load that the Spurs expect him to take on as the "go to" guy. I always figured he'd be much better in 2017 than this year. It's a tough adjustment. That's why I don't think we have any shot this year at doing much in the postseason.

I think we can still make some noise this year. Post season is a long way away still. Kawhi is still adjusting to a new role, new teammates, and new responsibilities in the post Duncan era. In the past he has proven to be a fast learner. Not only that but everyone else on this team is still learning and adjusting. Come playoff team they will be a lot better. I am not guaranteeing a title or anything but I think they can still go deep into the playoffs, and once that happens, you never know. I am just going to enjoy the ride. Next few years are going to be a lot of fun!

[John Petrucci]

I think we can still make some noise this year. Post season is a long way away still. Kawhi is still adjusting to a new role, new teammates, and new responsibilities in the post Duncan era. In the past he has proven to be a fast learner. Not only that but everyone else on this team is still learning and adjusting. Come playoff team they will be a lot better. I am not guaranteeing a title or anything but I think they can still go deep into the playoffs, and once that happens, you never know. I am just going to enjoy the ride. Next few years are going to be a lot of fun!

Agreed, I'm enjoying it as well :toast

Just think Kawhi needs another year to figure things out. Just hope when he finally has it figured out the team around him is developed and strong enough to support him.

[spursistan]

I can't look at his advanced stats box; they have taken a huge hit :depressed..

Hopefully he'll adjust, and regain his shooting touch; I wouldn't be thrilled if he Paul George the season even with the lack of help around him....

[Kawhitstorm]

I can't look at his advanced stats box; they have taken a huge hit :depressed..

Hopefully he'll adjust, and regain his shooting touch; I wouldn't be thrilled if he Paul George the season even with the lack of help around him....

He's struggling on the second night of B2Bs which most likely means he has tired legs, he should be fine once he gets his second wind.:toast

I'm assuming he didn't workout as much as he wanted to in the summer b/c of the new baby.

[Ice009]

I still DO NOT understand why he hasn't worked with Tim Grover since saying he wanted to during the 2013 finals. Tim Grover said Kawhi came up to him after one of the finals games and told him he wanted to work with him. Grover helped Jordan become Jordan. After getting physically punished by the Pistons in the playoffs year after year, Jordan hired Grover and that elevated his game to the Jordan we all know now. Without the Pistons punishing Jordan, and then in turn Jordan hiring Grover, the Jordan we all know now probably doesn't exist.

I also love that Tim Grover doesn't believe in Pop's rest bullshit. Another reason why I wanted Kawhi to work with him. He thinks young players need to learn to play through fatigue otherwise they won't know how to push through it during the playoffs when they have to. That looks exactly like Kawhi to me. Can't play big minutes without looking tired and fucked up.

Also, I thought Dwyane Wade was almost completely physically done 3 years ago, but Grover still has him on the court playing well. Why in the fuck did Kawhi tell him that he wanted to work with him and then didn't follow through with it? He's had 3 off-seasons to do it.

[Kawhitstorm]

Also, I thought Dwyane Wade was almost completely physically done 3 years ago, but Grover still has him on the court playing well. Why in the fuck did Kawhi tell him that he wanted to work with him and then didn't follow through with it? He's had 3 off-seasons to do it.

Wade ended his relationship w/ Grover after he worked him into the ground w/ that old school Thibs mentality:


Wade's first decision was a tough one. He switched trainers, ending a 13-year partnership with Chicago-based Tim Grover to instead work with Miami-based Dave Alexander, who also has trained James in the offseason.

The new regimen called for Wade to focus on strengthening his core through a rugged series of resistance training and stretching routines. He lost 10 pounds during the offseason to drop below 220 for the first time in years and reported to training camp without requiring injury rehab or being limited on any level. The combination of rest, recovery and resilience has led to rejuvenation.

"It's good to see those athletic plays from Dwyane again," Bosh said. "We know what he's capable of."

[Ice009]

Wade ended his relationship w/ Grover after he worked him into the ground w/ that old school Thibs mentality:

Interesting that he switched, but I still agree with a lot of what Grover has said, and hey, Grover's training worked for Michael Jordan who most people consider the best of all time. Wade switching isn't going to deter me that much, although it gives me pause, I still think Grover is a pretty good trainer. Jordan did great with those old school training methods.

Can I have a link to that article you quoted? I want to know if it says the reason Wade switched from Grover.

[Kawhitstorm]

Interesting that he switched, but I still agree with a lot of what Grover has said, and hey, Grover's training worked for Michael Jordan who most people consider the best of all time. Wade switching isn't going to deter me that much, although it gives me pause, I still think Grover is a pretty good trainer. Jordan did great with those old school training methods.

Can I have a link to that article you quoted? I want to know if it says the reason Wade switched from Grover.

Grover was about bulking up while pumping iron day-&-night so players can absorb punishment but Kawhi is already built like a tank. Carrying that much weight is also not good for the knees especially late in someones career: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/14512936/dwyane-wade-miami-heat-feeling-good-shows

[Kawhitstorm]

Kawhi to the Haters:

http://i.imgur.com/Du0hT6p.gif

[TheDoctor]

:claw

[LongtimeSpursFan]

If Kawhi can put together more games like tonight's he can be a serious MVP contender.

[YGWHI]

If Kawhi can put together more games like tonight's he can be a serious MVP contender.

Shut up your mouth, fucking troll.

He has become an absolute 4th quarter monster, only a big time player can do it. I guess that you hate it, right? Kill yourself.

[spursistan]

Jimmy Butler has over-taken Kawhi in almost all meaningful advanced stat categories:

#2 ORTG (Kiwi not in top 20)
#2 Offensive win shares (Kiwi #10)
#5 Win Shares (Kiwi #8)
#1 Win shares per 48 (Kiwi #10)
#6 BPM (Kiwi #12)
#5 OBMP (Kiwi #11)
#7 VORP (Kiwi #10)


Kawhi not even in top 20 for Defensive rating or DBPM :bang



Jimmy Buckets first team all NBA :wow Kiwi now 3rd team.



Dumb shit Wolfs not trading Wiggincancer for Buckets when they had the chance :lmao

Never mind, Kawhi has sonned Butler in their two meetings, per par :lol...

Their metrics have started trending opposite direction :tu..

[DarrinS]

Most embarrassing thread in ST history.

Shit, I just bumped it.

[spursistan]

Never mind, Kawhi has sonned Butler in their two meetings, per par :lol...

Their metrics have started trending opposite direction :tu..

H2H this season:

Kawhi
24.5 PPG - 9 RPG - 4.5 APG - 2 SPG - 0.5 BPG - 52%


Jimmy
16 PPG - 7 RPG - 3.5 APG - 1.5 SPG - 0.5 BPG - 35%

[Kawhitstorm]

Never mind, Kawhi has sonned Butler in their two meetings, per par :lol...

Their metrics have started trending opposite direction :tu..

He also sonned Dominos who is the #1 ranked wing-player by a lot of advanced metrics.