So how overrated is Nash?

[ambchang]

We all know Nash is overrated. No defense, two undeserving MVPs, etc ... but at least we can say he is a great passer!

But was he?

He has always been a decent passer, racking about 7 to 8 assists in Dallas. But his game was "opened up" after he joined the Suns, where he averaged anywhere from 10 to 12 assists a game over 8 seasons with Phoenix. However, 5 of those seasons were under Mike D, and for what I remembered, Porter and Gentry basically followed that type of philosophy where Nash holds onto the ball and rack up assists.

Since D'antoni left the Suns, he has coached the Knicks, Lakers and now Houston.

With the Knicks, he created Linsanity. Overall, he allowed very average guards like Chris Duhon (7 assists), Raymon Fatton (9 assists), Jeremy Lin (6.2 assists), Kendall Marshall (8.8 assists), and Steve Blake (7.6 assists) somehow manage to put up great numbers (by their standards).

Now, we have James Harden, who is a very fine player, but never one to be confused with passing greats like Magic Johnson, John Stockton, or Jason Kidd, is putting up 12.6 assists a game, not to mention 30 points a game.

At this point, it's very clear that it is the system that created all these great numbers, and this leads us back to Nash, were his numbers inflated because of D'antoni?

My opinion is that they were, and Nash was really a borderline all star being in the right place at the right time.

[Raven]

well of course they were massively inflated.. still, as a passer he was very very good and the plays he used to set up were always on point. Assists or not, I can't say that Harden is making anyone look better than he is, something nash used to do all the time.

[lefty]

Magic Johnson's passing game was overrated tbh

[313]

Nash was absolutely the craftiest passer listed ITT, but there's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to passing skills. Sure Nash was craftier than Harden, but you put Nash on this Rockets team, how many assist does he average? One or two more? Maybe three more? While not putting up anywhere near 30 a game?

I think I'd take Harden over Nash at PG any day.

[313]

Magic Johnson's passing game was overrated tbhAs much as I :lol @ 80s basketball(magic could barely dribble with his off hand :lol), I have to admit, Magic was way ahead of his time when it comes to creativeness. The type of passer he was back then, would be like taking a shooter like Steph and inserting him in the 80s.

[lefty]

As much as I :lol @ 80s basketball(magic could barely dribble with his off hand :lol), I have to admit, Magic was way ahead of his time when it comes to creativeness. The type of passer he was back then, would be like taking a shooter like Steph and inserting him in the 80s.
- useless "no look" passes on 3 on 1 fastbreaks

- "bullet" passes to teammates left alone under the basket

- "Court vision", thanks to smaller players guarding him

- Inflated assists numbers : entry pass to Kareem, he takes in the defense, fakes right, swings left, dribble-dribble, right handed hook. Assist: Magic.

- Put Rodman on him and all he does is entry pass to Kareem

AFAIC, Bird, Isiah, Price, KJ and Stockton were better passers

[Killakobe81]

- useless "no look" passes on 3 on 1 fastbreaks

- "bullet" passes to teammates left alone under the basket

- "Court vision", thanks to smaller players guarding him

- Inflated assists numbers : entry pass to Kareem, he takes in the defense, fakes right, swings left, dribble-dribble, right handed hook. Assist: Magic.

- Put Rodman on him and all he does is entry pass to Kareem

AFAIC, Bird, Isiah, Price, KJ and Stockton were better passers

You my friend are a basketball idiot ...pure vision only LeBron out of current nba assist men are in Magic's class. As good as cp3 is James has the greater passing gift and it's not just about size ..

[spurraider21]

hes underrated at this point if anything

[lefty]

You my friend are a basketball idiot ...pure vision only LeBron out of current nba assist men are in Magic's class. As good as cp3 is James has the greater passing gift and it's not just about size ..
Sorry

I hurt your avatar's feelings

[apalisoc_9]

how does a 15ppg dude with no defense win an MVP award..

Mind boggling.

Its like that extremely unqualified white dude that always gets the job but never does his job properly.

White privilage imo.

[lefty]

White privilage imo.
https://media.giphy.com/media/KcfRrKx3Xmyre/giphy.gif

[JMarkJohns]

I'll bite.

This thread is dumb.

That said, he's both a bit overrated and underappreciated.

His career will always be viewed for its paradox... All Offense, No Defense... Lots of Success but no Titles. He's like the Jim Kelly of the NBA with 4 Conference Finals appearances from 2003-2010, but no Finals Appearances.

But he was one of the best improvising PGs of his generation, the best shooter of his position, and players surrounding him were always better with him than with others. Very few ever left to get better, even in their primes.

So I get where this is going, but it's silly and it's trite.

Like tossing a beetle into the air after you plucked its wings off.

Where do you expect this topic to go on a Spurs board?

I still maintain had Nash had Gentry in 2005-2008, they would have been a truer challenger.

[William Hung]

He was no Pistol Pete that's for sure.

[JMarkJohns]

I get that D'Antoni is being hyped here.

But that guy is a .500 or worse career coach so all of his ability to generate numbers ring hollow, save for Nash, who put up strong numbers in a trimvate ISO offense of Nelson, and strong numbers in a motion-derivative adjusted offense under Gentry. He was the PG for three coaches in three offensive systems and made the WCF with each.

And if you look at the POS 05-06 Roster, outside of Marion, he made everyone. Nobody was worth a damn until Nash started passing to them. Half had been recently waived, or were on their 3rd team in as many years. So it wasn't always that he had a Dirk or Amare to prop him up.

[dav4463]

- useless "no look" passes on 3 on 1 fastbreaks

- "bullet" passes to teammates left alone under the basket

- "Court vision", thanks to smaller players guarding him

- Inflated assists numbers : entry pass to Kareem, he takes in the defense, fakes right, swings left, dribble-dribble, right handed hook. Assist: Magic.

- Put Rodman on him and all he does is entry pass to Kareem

AFAIC, Bird, Isiah, Price, KJ and Stockton were better passers



I once read the official scorer credited Magic with an assist for opening the door to the locker room to let a teammate through! No doubt his assist numbers were inflated. To be fair....so were Johnny Moore's.

[lefty]

I once read the official scorer credited Magic with an assist for opening the door to the locker room to let a teammate through! No doubt his assist numbers were inflated. To be fair....so were Johnny Moore's.
:lol

[ambchang]

I get that D'Antoni is being hyped here.

But that guy is a .500 or worse career coach so all of his ability to generate numbers ring hollow, save for Nash, who put up strong numbers in a trimvate ISO offense of Nelson, and strong numbers in a motion-derivative adjusted offense under Gentry. He was the PG for three coaches in three offensive systems and made the WCF with each.

And if you look at the POS 05-06 Roster, outside of Marion, he made everyone. Nobody was worth a damn until Nash started passing to them. Half had been recently waived, or were on their 3rd team in as many years. So it wasn't always that he had a Dirk or Amare to prop him up.

If Nash kept performing at his days with Dallas, he would be remembered as a borderline all star, not a 2-time MVP and one of the greatest offensive weapon since Jordan. Terrell Brandon and Stephen Marbury were putting up Dallas Nash numbers.

The Gentry teams basically inherited a lot of what D'antoni did, and added in some defensive elements. To say that the Suns would have rung (or had more success) with Gentry at the helm instead of D'antoni is either overrating Gentry or underrating D'antoni.

D'antoni has his flaws, and lots of them, but as an offensive coach, he was phenomenal. He actually doesn't get enough credit for opening the game up, and 2014 Spurs definitely owed D'antoni a fair bit.

[JMarkJohns]

I love when fans with peripheral knowledge of something tell me opinions like they are fact on shit I lived and died over.

If you think Gentry and D'Antoni ran anything similar, then you have no credibility in an opinion that had little relevancy to begin with.

[JMarkJohns]

And the 2014 Spurs definitely owed a Suns coach, but it was Gentry, not D'Antoni.

Perhaps you should research your own team more before you start slinging shit about other teams.

[ambchang]

I love when fans with peripheral knowledge of something tell me opinions like they are fact on shit I lived and died over.

Really tells you how bad you are at this if someone with peripheral knowledge knows more about something more than you do on a topic you lived and died over.


If you think Gentry and D'Antoni ran anything similar, then you have no credibility in an opinion that had little relevancy to begin with.

That is not true, the offensive systems revolves around a high number of decisions made by Nash, and having him made an enormous amount of decisions, with a fast pace being a main part of the offense. This isn't much of a departure from the D'antoni offense.


And the 2014 Spurs definitely owed a Suns coach, but it was Gentry, not D'Antoni.

Perhaps you should research your own team more before you start slinging shit about other teams.

Gentry owed the Spurs, not the other way around. He learned a lot under the Spurs as an assistant.

D'antoni brought a lot of the pace and space. Popovich took that and opened it up to all the players instead of having it focused on one player (PGs in D'antoni's system). The use of three point shooters can also thank D'antoni as well.

[Joseph Kony]

i don't see the problem with his MVPs honestly. He carried a team that was complete garbage to the best record in the league with no major changes but adding him, and while he was out they looked like ass. the next season he lost his best roll man and perennial allstar and still had a top record in a tough west. imo he was the MVP to his team, no other player was making taking their team from complete irrelevance to being one of the best and most entertaining teams in the league overnight, tbh

[sook]

This argument against Harden is stupid a f :lol

You're not talking about a guy that is a scrub, you're talking about someone that played the 2, was a top scorer and made the plays anyways before being point. I've hated on Harden a lot, but if you are actually making the argument you are (where you set your premise like an idiot) you seriously have not watched many rockets games this year...

I mean...have you even seen the roster they are boasting? How do you not feel stupid wasting your time on that nonsensical post. Its like saying that Duncan was useless and since Pop's system wins at such a rate without him in the lineup he must not have been that important.

[Spurtacular]

I give the OP credit; seed of doubt in my mind now.

[JMarkJohns]

Really tells you how bad you are at this if someone with peripheral knowledge knows more about something more than you do on a topic you lived and died over.



That is not true, the offensive systems revolves around a high number of decisions made by Nash, and having him made an enormous amount of decisions, with a fast pace being a main part of the offense. This isn't much of a departure from the D'antoni offense.



Gentry owed the Spurs, not the other way around. He learned a lot under the Spurs as an assistant.

D'antoni brought a lot of the pace and space. Popovich took that and opened it up to all the players instead of having it focused on one player (PGs in D'antoni's system). The use of three point shooters can also thank D'antoni as well.

You're very simplistic.

The offenses took shots. That's literally where it ends.

One sacrificed execution for immediacy. The other sacrificed immediacy for scheme. One sacrificed scheme for pace. The other orchestrated pace into spacing into greater efficiency. One abhorred FTs. The other embraced FTs. One called for a 4-corners spread/delayed screen dribble drive centered around ball-dominant Nash. The other utilized high post, motion-based schemes that saw players without the ball moving to make life easier on Nash. One played Amare as a C. The other as a PF. One played 7 players. The other played 10. One played Amare as the tallest player on the floor. The other played him alongside Frye, Lopez, or Collins the majority of the time.

But, yes, they both had Nash, Amare and a basketball, and pushed pace so they were the same.

Popovich has stated he brought in how to manage his aging stars after watching Gentry handle Nash and Hill, and brought the pace/space, high-post motion offense with side to side ball movement with cutters from Gentry's 2010 Suns.

Do you even remember what a Nash/D'Antoni offense looked like?

Yes, lots of threes, but Nash almost never let go of the ball until setting someone up in a scoring position. He'd dribble, over dribble, circle, and restart.

Gentry often allowed Hill to handle PG duties with Nash on the perimeter.

They are worlds apart.

And, lastly, do you really believe Pops would favor an opportunistic, chaos-based offense that he destroyed routinely over the high-post, motion/spacing-based offense that swept his ass by a team with a coach who was his former assistant?

Dude. Just fucking stop.

[sook]

You're very simplistic.

The offenses took shots. That's literally where it ends.

One sacrificed execution for immediacy. The other sacrificed immediacy for scheme. One sacrificed scheme for pace. The other orchestrated pace into spacing into greater efficiency. One abhorred FTs. The other embraced FTs. One called for a 4-corners spread/delayed screen dribble drive centered around ball-dominant Nash. The other utilized high post, motion-based schemes that saw players without the ball moving to make life easier on Nash. One played Amare as a C. The other as a PF. One played 7 players. The other played 10. One played Amare as the tallest player on the floor. The other played him alongside Frye, Lopez, or Collins the majority of the time.

But, yes, they both had Nash, Amare and a basketball, and pushed pace so they were the same.

Popovich has stated he brought in how to manage his aging stars after watching Gentry handle Nash and Hill, and brought the pace/space, high-post motion offense with side to side ball movement with cutters from Gentry's 2010 Suns.

Do you even remember what a Nash/D'Antoni offense looked like?

Yes, lots of threes, but Nash almost never let go of the ball until setting someone up in a scoring position. He'd dribble, over dribble, circle, and restart.

Gentry often allowed Hill to handle PG duties with Nash on the perimeter.

They are worlds apart.

And, lastly, do you really believe Pops would favor an opportunistic, chaos-based offense that he destroyed routinely over the high-post, motion/spacing-based offense that swept his ass by a team with a coach who was his former assistant?

Dude. Just fucking stop.

Not only that, you could look at him in Dallas before Phoenix. Not to mention that because Nash didn't do as well post D'Antoni...maybe it has something to do with his freaking age.

[DMC]

Nash was deserving of the offensive accolades he received. He couldn't play a lick of defense which shows you just how good he was on offense.

[DMC]

I give the OP credit; seed of doubt in my mind now.

Bend over, I'll put one in the other end.

[DAF86]

I always thought of Nash as a great shooter more than a great assister (which he also is), tbh. Probably a top 3 shooter of all-time.

[Mori Chu]

Nash was an all-time great shooter and an all-time great passer. Shit defender, smart but couldn't move his body properly to defend. Not athletic or fast but crafty on offense. Nash is a great fucking player and if you think otherwise you need to go search him on YouTube and educate your dumb ass. D'Antoni is also a great offensive coach (shit at coaching defense) and the combo of D'A + Nash undeniably helped Nash's stats and career. Nothing wrong with that.

[ambchang]

You're very simplistic.

The offenses took shots. That's literally where it ends.

No, the emphasis on pace and space is what D'antoni brought to the table.

Nash had a usage rate that was similar with D'antoni vs. with Gentry. The major difference is that Gentry would not settle for as many "bad" shots as D'antoni. The pace of those teams were almost the same.


One sacrificed execution for immediacy. The other sacrificed immediacy for scheme. One sacrificed scheme for pace. The other orchestrated pace into spacing into greater efficiency. One abhorred FTs. The other embraced FTs. One called for a 4-corners spread/delayed screen dribble drive centered around ball-dominant Nash. The other utilized high post, motion-based schemes that saw players without the ball moving to make life easier on Nash. One played Amare as a C. The other as a PF. One played 7 players. The other played 10. One played Amare as the tallest player on the floor. The other played him alongside Frye, Lopez, or Collins the majority of the time.

But, yes, they both had Nash, Amare and a basketball, and pushed pace so they were the same.

The views on FTs were one difference, but the general philosophy was to have the PG drive those teams and let them run the show, with the PG making almost all the decisions. Gentry shared a wealth a little more, but there was no mistake the Nash was there. High pick and rolls were still the predominant bread and butter of those Phoenix teams.


Popovich has stated he brought in how to manage his aging stars after watching Gentry handle Nash and Hill, and brought the pace/space, high-post motion offense with side to side ball movement with cutters from Gentry's 2010 Suns.

I missed that, but that offense was based off of what D'antoni brought to the Suns in the first place.


Do you even remember what a Nash/D'Antoni offense looked like?

Yes, Nash dribbling the ball, pick and roll, kick out for a shot.


Yes, lots of threes, but Nash almost never let go of the ball until setting someone up in a scoring position. He'd dribble, over dribble, circle, and restart.

Gentry often allowed Hill to handle PG duties with Nash on the perimeter.

They are worlds apart.

Like I said earlier, there are certainly differences, but the primary principle is nonetheless having Nash handle a majority of the decision making.


And, lastly, do you really believe Pops would favor an opportunistic, chaos-based offense that he destroyed routinely over the high-post, motion/spacing-based offense that swept his ass by a team with a coach who was his former assistant?

Dude. Just fucking stop.

That's where our fundamental difference lies, I do not see D'antoni's offense as chaos based. He had sets with Nash being a primary creator on offense through a series of screens. D'antoni introduced a workable small ball by opening up the paint for dribble penetration, something that Nelly tried, but didn't come to the same level of success. Gentry simply took those basic principles, refined them, but still had Nash as the brains of it. Pop took those, refined it further, and made it work. it's the same way as how Phil Jackson took the Rudy T Hakeem teams and refined them for those Shaq three peat Lakers, and Pop took that and refined it to create those 2005/07 Spurs teams. Are they the same? No, but the basic principles basically came from that.

[ambchang]

Nash was an all-time great shooter and an all-time great passer. Shit defender, smart but couldn't move his body properly to defend. Not athletic or fast but crafty on offense. Nash is a great fucking player and if you think otherwise you need to go search him on YouTube and educate your dumb ass. D'Antoni is also a great offensive coach (shit at coaching defense) and the combo of D'A + Nash undeniably helped Nash's stats and career. Nothing wrong with that.

Nash is a "great" player, but two time MVP and is somehow in the conversation as the one of the greatest offensive player of all time? No.

[ambchang]

Not only that, you could look at him in Dallas before Phoenix. Not to mention that because Nash didn't do as well post D'Antoni...maybe it has something to do with his freaking age.

Nash would be known as a borderline PG if he put up numbers and success like he did in Dallas.

[ambchang]

This argument against Harden is stupid a f :lol

You're not talking about a guy that is a scrub, you're talking about someone that played the 2, was a top scorer and made the plays anyways before being point. I've hated on Harden a lot, but if you are actually making the argument you are (where you set your premise like an idiot) you seriously have not watched many rockets games this year...

I mean...have you even seen the roster they are boasting? How do you not feel stupid wasting your time on that nonsensical post. Its like saying that Duncan was useless and since Pop's system wins at such a rate without him in the lineup he must not have been that important.

Who said Harden is a scrub? I am comparing him to a two time MVP, and favourably. You are so butthurt you've gone blind.

[djohn2oo8]

Who said Harden is a scrub? I am comparing him to a two time MVP, and favourably. You are so butthurt you've gone blind.
You said D'antoni was responsible for those great stats, when Harden was averaging 7 assists per game before D'antoni. He has always been a very good passer. The difference now, is he is getting more rebounds and has better shooters around him.

[ambchang]

You said D'antoni was responsible for those great stats, when Harden was averaging 7 assists per game before D'antoni. He has always been a very good passer. The difference now, is he is getting more rebounds and has better shooters around him.

So you have trouble knowing 7 < 12. Congratulations.

[djohn2oo8]

So you have trouble knowing 7 < 12. Congratulations.
So you have trouble knowing passing to players who suck at making shots lead to less assists? :lmao

[ambchang]

So you have trouble knowing passing to players who suck at making shots lead to less assists? :lmao

Yeah Dwight suck.

The rockets have a horrible roster outside of harden this year. Which player ever got 5 more assists by having better teammates?

[cd98]

Spurs feared Nash enough to put Bowen on him. No doubt he was a legit star, but overrated as a superstar.

[JMarkJohns]

No, the emphasis on pace and space is what D'antoni brought to the table.

Nash had a usage rate that was similar with D'antoni vs. with Gentry. The major difference is that Gentry would not settle for as many "bad" shots as D'antoni. The pace of those teams were almost the same.



The views on FTs were one difference, but the general philosophy was to have the PG drive those teams and let them run the show, with the PG making almost all the decisions. Gentry shared a wealth a little more, but there was no mistake the Nash was there. High pick and rolls were still the predominant bread and butter of those Phoenix teams.



I missed that, but that offense was based off of what D'antoni brought to the Suns in the first place.



Yes, Nash dribbling the ball, pick and roll, kick out for a shot.



Like I said earlier, there are certainly differences, but the primary principle is nonetheless having Nash handle a majority of the decision making.



That's where our fundamental difference lies, I do not see D'antoni's offense as chaos based. He had sets with Nash being a primary creator on offense through a series of screens. D'antoni introduced a workable small ball by opening up the paint for dribble penetration, something that Nelly tried, but didn't come to the same level of success. Gentry simply took those basic principles, refined them, but still had Nash as the brains of it. Pop took those, refined it further, and made it work. it's the same way as how Phil Jackson took the Rudy T Hakeem teams and refined them for those Shaq three peat Lakers, and Pop took that and refined it to create those 2005/07 Spurs teams. Are they the same? No, but the basic principles basically came from that.


You're talking in circles...

In my first post I acknowledged the base numbers likely being overrated because of usage and system. But the underlying skills as being under appreciated.

I then suggested that D'Antoni was a vastly overrated coach because he could only do that one thing. And that one thing created stats. Without Nash, his thing produces stats and pedestrian win totals. Nash, meanwhile was in four Conference Finals with three coaches and three different systems.

I then cited that Gentry's teams with less true talent but more effective roles, was more efficient, offensively, defensively, shooting, etc.

You keep saying "pace and space" like that's some goddamn bingo that claims you a win.

Yes, Nash and pace and space were common denominators with D'Antoni/Gentry, but you have don't absolutely nothing to backup the claim that they were the same, or were used the same.

I've said a dozen different "tweaks" as you put it.

These tweaks are evolved, and fundamentally adjust tooth the intent and the outcome of the offense. You even admit to this, but either can't make the connection that such changes your argument, or ignore that it does.

Nash was a PG. Of course he's going to be a PG in each system. He's a PG who works best in a fast-paced tempo, and with the ball in his hands. So of course he's going to be utilized that way. Especially after the failed Terry Porter era.

But you simply fail to understand the difference twist D'Antoni and Gentry.

I've explained it.

The fact you ignore "chaos" when D'Antoni literally used the word to describe his offensive philosophy proves just how little you understood what you thought you saw.

[DAF86]

You said D'antoni was responsible for those great stats, when Harden was averaging 7 assists per game before D'antoni. He has always been a very good passer. The difference now, is he is getting more rebounds and has better shooters around him.

The difference isn't that, the difference is Harden having more the ball on his hands and playing at a higher pace, so yeah, D'antoni's style is the main difference between 12 and 7. Harden with these same teammates but under any other coach wouldn't be averaging 12 apg, because they probably would be playing at a slower pace but, most importantly, because none other coach would have made Harden the literal PG of the team.

[djohn2oo8]

The difference isn't that, the difference is Harden having more the ball on his hands and playing at a higher pace, so yeah, D'antoni's style is the main difference between 12 and 7. Harden with these same teammates but under any other coach wouldn't be averaging 12 apg, because they probably would be playing at a slower pace but, most importantly, because none other coach would have made Harden the literal PG of the team.

No they are not playing at a better pace. Right now they are 14th of 30 in Pace. Last year they were 7th out of 30. They are actually not playing as fast as you think. D'antoni deserves credit for making Harden the actual PG of the team and encouraging him to play for more rebounds. The assists though are coming because Anderson, Ariza and Gordon are both near 40 percent shooting 3's which opens up the floor. As Harden's assists are coming from playing pick and roll with lobs to Capela, which Dwight never wanted to run. But who cares as long as he keeps doing it.

[Will Hunting]

The difference isn't that, the difference is Harden having more the ball on his hands and playing at a higher pace, so yeah, D'antoni's style is the main difference between 12 and 7. Harden with these same teammates but under any other coach wouldn't be averaging 12 apg, because they probably would be playing at a slower pace but, most importantly, because none other coach would have made Harden the literal PG of the team.

Houston's pace rating this season: 96.9
Houston's pace rating last season: 97.6

Plz explain how having 0.7 less possessions per game is helping Harden raise his assist totals :lol

[unleashbaynes]

Isn't Harden running point this year? So ball in his hands more?

[gambit1990]

hes underrated at this point if anything
without question. incredibly awful take by op.

[sook]

Who said Harden is a scrub? I am comparing him to a two time MVP, and favourably. You are so butthurt you've gone blind.

djohn addressed it. Look through my posts, you wil seel that 99% of the ones regarding Harden have STRONG criticisms. This was probably the first one where I have defended him, to put matters into perspective.

[FkLA]

Nash and Harden both had/have awesome courtvision. Are they great fits in D'Antoni's system which in turn inflates their numbers? Sure, but that doesn't diminish their talents. You can't just plug anybody in and have them look like stars. Guys like Duhon and Felton might've seen a rise in their numbers but they never controlled games the way Nash did or Harden does, tbh.

[HarlemHeat37]

Nash was overrated at the time, but he has been so over-criticized that he's probably under-appreciated, at this point IMO..

Jason Kidd is far more overrated than Nash, btw..

[DAF86]

Houston's pace rating this season: 96.9
Houston's pace rating last season: 97.6

Plz explain how having 0.7 less possessions per game is helping Harden raise his assist totals :lol

I didn't know that but I did hear something about the Rockets being middle of the pack in terms of pace, that's why I didn't pay much attention to that, although I did thought they might be higer than last season. So I will own up to that. But like I said, the biggest difference to me between 7 and 12 is Harden being the actual PG, and that's all on D'antoni, I don't think any other coach in the World would have made that move.

[DAF86]

Nash and Harden both had/have awesome courtvision. Are they great fits in D'Antoni's system which in turn inflates their numbers? Sure, but that doesn't diminish their talents. You can't just plug anybody in and have them look like stars. Guys like Duhon and Felton might've seen a rise in their numbers but they never controlled games the way Nash did or Harden does, tbh.

Do you imagine our lefty b3aner in his prime under D'antoni? :wow

[FkLA]

Do you imagine our lefty b3aner in his prime under D'antoni? :wow

Shit Manu playing PG under D'Antoni would've been absolutely beautiful, tbh.

[313]

Has there ever been a ST debate that ended with one side conceding the point to the other?

[FkLA]

Has there ever been a ST debate that ended with one side conceding the point to the other?

Diaw > Lee

[namlook]

- useless "no look" passes on 3 on 1 fastbreaks

- "bullet" passes to teammates left alone under the basket

- "Court vision", thanks to smaller players guarding him

- Inflated assists numbers : entry pass to Kareem, he takes in the defense, fakes right, swings left, dribble-dribble, right handed hook. Assist: Magic.

- Put Rodman on him and all he does is entry pass to Kareem

AFAIC, Bird, Isiah, Price, KJ and Stockton were better passers

Not sure what Magic did to piss you off but you sound like a hater. I saw Magic play live in his prime as well as all of those other players you claim were better. Magic made plays that were jaw dropping and none of the players you listed were better passers than Magic. Magic would change the momentum of a game based on his passing alone and leave everyone watching with a look of astonishment on their face.

[-21-]

Diaw > Lee

Is Diaw>Lee right now though? :lol David Lee has played well so far, certainly better than Diaw was last year right?

[Arcadian]

Idk...he could shoot the 3, suck in the defense with dribble penetration, dish it like a maestro, and orchestrated one of the most prolific offenses in NBA history (and one of the best teams to NOT win a title)...that's gotta be worth something.

[spurraider21]

Nash was overrated at the time, but he has been so over-criticized that he's probably under-appreciated, at this point IMO..nailed it. he's the anti tyson chandler

[lefty]

Not sure what Magic did to piss you off but you sound like a hater. I saw Magic play live in his prime as well as all of those other players you claim were better. Magic made plays that were jaw dropping and none of the players you listed were better passers than Magic. Magic would change the momentum of a game based on his passing alone and leave everyone watching with a look of astonishment on their face.
I dont hate him, but his passing game is still overrated tbh

[ambchang]

You're talking in circles...

In my first post I acknowledged the base numbers likely being overrated because of usage and system. But the underlying skills as being under appreciated.

We agree on the first part, but not the second. Nash is a 2-time MVP, known as one of the greatest offensive weapon the league has seen, how would that be underrating him?


I then suggested that D'Antoni was a vastly overrated coach because he could only do that one thing. And that one thing created stats. Without Nash, his thing produces stats and pedestrian win totals. Nash, meanwhile was in four Conference Finals with three coaches and three different systems.

I then cited that Gentry's teams with less true talent but more effective roles, was more efficient, offensively, defensively, shooting, etc.

You keep saying "pace and space" like that's some goddamn bingo that claims you a win.

Suns 2010 offensive 4 factors:
eFG%: .546 (ranked 1st)
TOV%: 13.6% (ranked 17th)
OREB%: 27.6% (ranked 10th)
FT/FGA: .240 (ranked 10th)

Suns 2005 offensive 4 factors:
eFG% .534 (ranked 1st)
TOV:: 12.4 (ranked 3rd)
OREB%: 27.5 (ranked 22nd)
FT/FGA: .222 (ranked 24th)

Numbers are relatively similar. Gentry's team crashed the boards more and shot more FTs, but those we already know. From an offensive efficiency perspective, they were very close.


Yes, Nash and pace and space were common denominators with D'Antoni/Gentry, but you have don't absolutely nothing to backup the claim that they were the same, or were used the same.

I've said a dozen different "tweaks" as you put it.

These tweaks are evolved, and fundamentally adjust tooth the intent and the outcome of the offense. You even admit to this, but either can't make the connection that such changes your argument, or ignore that it does.

So Gentry took what D'antoni made successful using Nash, and tweaked it to make it better, it still goes back to the original point that D'antoni made Nash what Nash is, and then Gentry capitalized and continued with that.


Nash was a PG. Of course he's going to be a PG in each system. He's a PG who works best in a fast-paced tempo, and with the ball in his hands. So of course he's going to be utilized that way. Especially after the failed Terry Porter era.

But you simply fail to understand the difference twist D'Antoni and Gentry.

I understand it. I am not saying they are the same, I am saying Gentry used Nash like D'antoni did, and that made Nash overrated.


I've explained it.

The fact you ignore "chaos" when D'Antoni literally used the word to describe his offensive philosophy proves just how little you understood what you thought you saw.

The Nash Suns team was way more structured than chaos. This idea that D'antoni just gave the ball to Nash and let him run amok is untrue. He spaced the floor and used high pick and rolls constantly to create more space for penetration, with usually 2 to 3 3 pt shooters on the outside stretching the floor. It's actually a rather simple offense at the root of it.

[ambchang]

djohn addressed it. Look through my posts, you wil seel that 99% of the ones regarding Harden have STRONG criticisms. This was probably the first one where I have defended him, to put matters into perspective.

How? Harden is a great passing SG, but a 12apg PG? It's a product of D'antoni

[sook]

How? Harden is a great passing SG, but a 12apg PG? It's a product of D'antoni

You made an assertion with nothing to back it up other than your personal opinion that you think its absurd. Great strategy, you've been shot down by everybody in this thread :lol

[djohn2oo8]

You made an assertion with nothing to back it up other than your personal opinion that you think its absurd. Great strategy, you've been shot down by everybody in this thread :lol

You would think Harden only averaged 3 apg then jumped to 12 with the way chang is trying to argue.

[djohn2oo8]

How? Harden is a great passing SG, but a 12apg PG? It's a product of D'antoni

Capela has gotten better at finishing near the rim. That is one reason Harden's assists are going up, instead of passing to Dwight in the post where he would get stripped.

[ambchang]

You made an assertion with nothing to back it up other than your personal opinion that you think its absurd. Great strategy, you've been shot down by everybody in this thread :lol

Summoning everybody again. :lol.

Harden played 8 seasons, never averaged even 10 assists per 100 possessions. Then this year he got dantoni as a coach and suddenly averages 17 ap 100, despite similar usage rates as the last two seasons, so it must be because he got better teammates. You and everybody are brilliant.

[ambchang]

You would think Harden only averaged 3 apg then jumped to 12 with the way chang is trying to argue.


Capela has gotten better at finishing near the rim. That is one reason Harden's assists are going up, instead of passing to Dwight in the post where he would get stripped.

Yeah, because the nba has historically been littered with players who averages 5 more assists a game with pretty much the same usage rate in b2b seasons.

And that Capella comment is just :lmao. Capella gets 3 more fgs than last year and his assisted rate went from 67% to 87%. So last year about 3.7 of his fgs were assisted while this year it's about 7. That gives a difference of 4. Even if Howard gives zero assists to harden last year, and all of the assists to capella was due to harden, which we and everybody know is not true, it still doesn't give 5.

That argument is just :lol

[sook]

Summoning everybody again. :lol.

Harden played 8 seasons, never averaged even 10 assists per 100 possessions. Then this year he got dantoni as a coach and suddenly averages 17 ap 100, despite similar usage rates as the last two seasons, so it must be because he got better teammates. You and everybody are brilliant.
I'm not going to do your work for you, the answer to what you are seeking is too obvious. Start by putting it into context. I don't expect you to get all of it since you haven't followed the team closely enough but you're putting yourself in a position where you think you do so fair game.

[ambchang]

I'm not going to do your work for you, the answer to what you are seeking is too obvious. Start by putting it into context. I don't expect you to get all of it since you haven't followed the team closely enough but you're putting yourself in a position where you think you do so fair game.

Is everybody going to help me out on this? I am trying to up this in context, a player, in his NINTH year, suddenly got a 70+% jump in assists per possession, with a team he has played on for 5 years, and with quality of teammates who are more or less on par, or arguably worse, than those of the last two years. The only obvious change is that he is now playing PG vs. SG with a coach who has a history of having PGs putting up career numbers playing with him, which is most definitely a product of the system.

[djohn2oo8]

Is everybody going to help me out on this? I am trying to up this in context, a player, in his NINTH year, suddenly got a 70+% jump in assists per possession, with a team he has played on for 5 years, and with quality of teammates who are more or less on par, or arguably worse, than those of the last two years. The only obvious change is that he is now playing PG vs. SG with a coach who has a history of having PGs putting up career numbers playing with him, which is most definitely a product of the system.

So who was playing PG the last few years? Who handled the ball primarily for the past few years?

[djohn2oo8]

Product of the system. D'antoni's teams are usually run and gun. The Rockets are not. At least not yet.

[djohn2oo8]

But hold on. Amb is arguing that Harden's assists went up because he switched to "PG" which he has always been the de facto PG. So averaging 7 assists per game as a SG would actually mean its not a product of the system.

[ambchang]

So who was playing PG the last few years? Who handled the ball primarily for the past few years?

Thank you for proving my point even further.


Product of the system. D'antoni's teams are usually run and gun. The Rockets are not. At least not yet.

The system is to have the PG make almost all offensive decisions, aiming to have the PG either make or create the shot.


But hold on. Amb is arguing that Harden's assists went up because he switched to "PG" which he has always been the de facto PG. So averaging 7 assists per game as a SG would actually mean its not a product of the system.

I am arguing that Nash got inflated numbers, and part of that proof is Harden's number shot up with the same coach. Please try to follow along instead of being blinded by rage.

[djohn2oo8]

The system is to have the PG make almost all offensive decisions, aiming to have the PG either make or create the shot.
Isn't that any offensive system? Isn't that the job of a PG? :lmao



I am arguing that Nash got inflated numbers, and part of that proof is Harden's number shot up with the same coach. Please try to follow along instead of being blinded by rage.
Shot up 5 assists per game? Playing at a slower pace than last year? Christ you are retarded.

[ambchang]

Isn't that any offensive system? Isn't that the job of a PG? :lmao

No, unless you are going back to the Bob Cousy days. A PG isn't supposed to be there to either make or create the shot since a long long time ago.


Shot up 5 assists per game? Playing at a slower pace than last year? Christ you are retarded.

And the common thread is the system that is implemented where Harden is placed in a role where he is supposed to dominate every single offensive possession, ie. a product of the system.

So what is the magic that allowed Harden to suddenly have 5 more assists a game, at a slower pace, with similar types of players around him, and with a similar usage rate as the last 2 seasons?

[djohn2oo8]

And the common thread is the system that is implemented where Harden is placed in a role where he is supposed to dominate every single offensive possession, ie. a product of the system.

So what is the magic that allowed Harden to suddenly have 5 more assists a game, at a slower pace, with similar types of players around him, and with a similar usage rate as the last 2 seasons?
I'm going to ask you this. What is the system? It's more than just letting Harden play PG. It's a system where 3 point shooting is primarily emphasized, and that has how it has been since Harden and before he was here. But here is the main thing that's allowing for Harden to have better assist numbers. Pick and roll. They never ran it with Dwight because he never wanted to run it. They run it a lot now, no Dwight = pick and roll where Harden is already great at it. THAT is the system. Funny how Capela and Harden are much more in sync than Dwight and Harden were, it's because Capela is very willing to pick and roll and set hard screens, which obviously opens up other players from 3.

[Chillen]

He is not overrated, one of the best passers I have ever seen play the game and very high BBall IQ. Very good offensively, defensively he was just average. Except for one playoffs, the Spurs always gave the Nash's Suns fits. They had a chance to win it all though if they could have beaten that 2010 Lakers team.

[lefty]

:lol More MVPs than Kobe and Shaq

No title though

[ambchang]

I'm going to ask you this. What is the system? It's more than just letting Harden play PG. It's a system where 3 point shooting is primarily emphasized, and that has how it has been since Harden and before he was here. But here is the main thing that's allowing for Harden to have better assist numbers. Pick and roll. They never ran it with Dwight because he never wanted to run it. They run it a lot now, no Dwight = pick and roll where Harden is already great at it. THAT is the system. Funny how Capela and Harden are much more in sync than Dwight and Harden were, it's because Capela is very willing to pick and roll and set hard screens, which obviously opens up other players from 3.

What does this have to do with Harden didn't get his assists up playing in D'antoni's system? The point is, it's a system where Harden handles the rock and either scores or assist on every shot down the court. This is a system that is a lot easier to stop in the playoffs.

[TDMVPDPOY]

an efficient shooter who couldve scored more, he rather pad his assists then trying to score

remember those games against the spurs between 05-07, would beat enrique to the lane for easy 2pts, but instead of dribbles out to the 3pt line or look for the cutting man....what a stooge, im glad when beno came on continue to pick pocket him cause he was a 1 trick pony exposed

[DMC]

I don't think Kidd or Nash are overrated. I think athletic dunkers are overrated. Nash and Kidd had responsibilities to shine even with some bonehead coaches and teammates and they still managed to do so. Who else could make Amare look good? 40 points a game? Didn't do anything remotely like that in NY. Who else could get the Mavs over the Finals hump? Nash and Kidd had off the charts basketball IQ. That's what's always underrated by casual fans.

[djohn2oo8]

What does this have to do with Harden didn't get his assists up playing in D'antoni's system? The point is, it's a system where Harden handles the rock and either scores or assist on every shot down the court. This is a system that is a lot easier to stop in the playoffs.
That has been the system pretty much Harden's entire career in Houston, in which his assists have gone up every year. It's really not hard to see running a simple pick and roll will get someone open and lead to more chances for assists... Christ.

[ambchang]

That has been the system pretty much Harden's entire career in Houston, in which his assists have gone up every year. It's really not hard to see running a simple pick and roll will get someone open and lead to more chances for assists... Christ.

Yes, 8 years of no pick and roll. You are making perfect sense.