Real Plus Minus for the Spurs

[dabom]

Patty Mills (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4004/patty-mills)
SA
14
23.9
2.40
-1.36
1.04
0.80





Tony Parker (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/1015/tony-parker)
SA
9
25.9
-0.47
-0.92
-1.39
0.25





Danny Green (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3988/danny-green)
SA
6
25.3
0.18
1.01
1.19
0.33





Jonathon Simmons (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2579466/jonathon-simmons)
SA
14
19.4
-1.14
0.64
-0.50
0.43




Kyle Anderson (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2993874/kyle-anderson)
SA
13
17.0
-1.89
1.33
-0.56
0.33





Manu Ginobili (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/272/manu-ginobili)
SA
13
19.2
-0.09
-0.57
-0.66
0.36





Kawhi Leonard (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6450/kawhi-leonard)
SA
14
33.8
5.42
1.37
6.79
2.71






David Lee (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2772/david-lee)
SA
14
16.9
-0.58
1.27
0.69
0.50






LaMarcus Aldridge (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2983/lamarcus-aldridge)
SA
12
32.5
-0.56
0.50
-0.06
0.74





Pau Gasol (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/996/pau-gasol)
SA
14
25.9
-0.04
1.52
1.48
0.95





Dewayne Dedmon (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2580913/dewayne-dedmon)
SA
11
13.1
-1.87
1.88
0.01
0.28



I didn't get any rookies or new guys for the Spurs. They got very little minutes to make a real assessment as this time.


Kind of expected. Kawhi is by far the best player. Superstar status. Top 3 in the league.

Patty Mills is always a positive player because he provides spacing and scoring. He will always play well.

Pau above average defender. Wash on offense. Positive player.

Danny with a positive impact but 6 games only.

Lee with the slight above impact.

LMA is a zero impact player but plays big minutes and just enough production to actually still be a good player. A lot of people need to understand that he scores and rebounds and soaks up enough minutes and games to be a good player to have.

Dedmon is playing ok.

Everyone else is shit. :lol

Going by production/impact I rate Kawhi, 2a LMA, 2b Pau, 4 Patty in that order so far. Those guys with green will always be dangerous lineup.

I've always said you need one of the two between Manu and Porker to play at a net positive impact to win a Championship. Since Pop always plays them big minutes, they are the real X-Factors of the Spurs for that reason alone. If both play bad, the Spurs can't carry that sack of shit players any more.

We also need to be healthy come playoffs. That goes without saying. We've had shitty luck this past 2 years as much as some of ya posters fucking blame Kawhi. :lol

[elemento]

The most surprising numbers are Lee and Kyle defensive numbers. With the high usage, Leonard's numbers increased offensively but took a big hit defensively (compared to last season) and we could tell it by watching the games. It's hard to keep the intensity on both ends for almost 35 minutes/game.

Pau has been better defensively than what was advertised when SA signed him and the rest is pretty what you could expect to see based on the performance of the players. We're going to need a better version of Manu and LMA in the playoffs, otherwise SA has no chance.

[TD 21]

I don't "blame" Leonard. I just think him and Pop get too much credit for the '12-'14 Spurs and he gets little to no criticism for not making his teammates better in a direct way (a staple of a superstar player) or his team underachieving in the playoffs (even if he did play well in '16).

Hopefully everyone is healthy this season so that people can't make excuses when this team is eliminated in the WCSF or WCF (if the Clippers suffer a significant injury before or during the WCSF).

[dabom]

I don't "blame" Leonard. I just think him and Pop get too much credit for the '12-'14 Spurs, he gets little to no criticism for not making his teammates better in a direct way (a staple of a superstar player) or his team underachieving in the playoffs (even if he did play well in '16).

Hopefully everyone is healthy this season so that people can't make excuses when this team is eliminated in the WCSF or WCF (if the Clippers suffer a significant injury before or during the WCSF).

Everyone was healthy in 2013/2014. Not so much 2015/2016. See a correlation? :lmao

[dabom]

Well besides Manu broken foot but he actually played great...

[TheGreatYacht]

Everyone was healthy in 2013/2014. Not so much 2015/2016. See a correlation? :lmao
Yup. MVParker was the leading scorer in those playoff runs

[dabom]

Wanna make a bet they make the WCFs if Spurs are healthy before the playoffs? TD

100 about a good bet.

[TD 21]

Everyone was healthy in 2013/2014. Not so much 2015/2016. See a correlation? :lmao

In '15, shouldn't a supposed top 5 player in the league have been able to get them over the hump in a series that came down to the final possession?

In '16, they were healthy. Duncan's one decent knee going was more so father time than injury.

[dabom]

In '15, shouldn't a supposed top 5 player in the league have been able to get them over the hump in a series that came down to the final possession?

In '16, they were healthy. Duncan's one decent knee going was more so father time than injury.

Porker playing worse than gimp leg Tiago. :lmao

Duncan getting injured is a huge hit.

Kinda like GSW in 2014 and 2016. See that correlation again? Stay losing. :lmao

[100%duncan]

In '15, shouldn't a supposed top 5 player in the league have been able to get them over the hump in a series that came down to the final possession?

In '16, they were healthy. Duncan's one decent knee going was more so father time than injury.

In 2015, we were the 6th seed and facing our worst matchup in the first round. Our best Blake defender, Splitter was injured before the playoffs. We had to make a deep run and almost got the 2nd seed which Kawhi was a very big part off since he missed a number of games in he season.

Last year was an implosion by the team imho. Kawhi was by far the nwst player in the playoffs. Yes you can fault him for not being Tim or Lebron great in the sense od making the whole team better but those type of guys are once in a lifetime and Kawhi is the player that rose to superstardom rather than "having" it naturally. Which is probably the biggest thing that we are gonna miss from Tim. Look, aside from Lebron which current superstar can you say will never fail his team when the going gets toughest? Durant and westbrook both blew a 3-1 lead. Kawhi doesn't have a teammate of the same caliber as of those two. Steph choked when it mattered the most. Paul chokes in the playoffs when he has blake griffin by his side. All of these superstars have failed even if they had a top 10 player with them.

[YGWHI]

he gets little to no criticism for not making his teammates better in a direct way (a staple of a superstar player)
You say that every superstar made his teammates better on offense? I'd say that Kobe didn't. Like many other superstars in NBA history who didn't do it.

To me, Kawhi already makes his teammates better in many ways...Without him this team is a shit. But I'm fine with you saying otherwise.


(even if he did play well in '16).).

So Kawhi played well but most role players were ugly, the coach made big mistakes with his lineups and playbook...but Kawhi deserved the criticism.

Yep. That's fair.

[james evans]

Mills and Ginobli just turn the fuckign ball over too much. It's like Ginobli sits at home and thinks of creative ways to turn the ball over in the 2nd half.

[FkLA]

Why is Enrique Porker always near the bottom of most advanced stats? :lol

hes the HOTS though :cry

[Play Boban]

lol porker

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Why is Enrique Porker always near the bottom of most advanced stats? :lol

hes the HOTS though :cry

In fairness, he's been an absolute corpse for most of this season but he has been turning it around lately.

[SupremeGuy]

In fairness, he's been an absolute corpse for most of this season but he has been turning it around lately.Can you start a player appreciation thread about him?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Can you start a player appreciation thread about him?

No, because if I do he'll most likely get injured :lol

[NameLess Scrub]

In 2015, we were the 6th seed and facing our worst matchup in the first round. Our best Blake defender, Splitter was injured before the playoffs. We had to make a deep run and almost got the 2nd seed which Kawhi was a very big part off since he missed a number of games in he season.

Last year was an implosion by the team imho. Kawhi was by far the nwst player in the playoffs. Yes you can fault him for not being Tim or Lebron great in the sense od making the whole team better but those type of guys are once in a lifetime and Kawhi is the player that rose to superstardom rather than "having" it naturally. Which is probably the biggest thing that we are gonna miss from Tim. Look, aside from Lebron which current superstar can you say will never fail his team when the going gets toughest? Durant and westbrook both blew a 3-1 lead. Kawhi doesn't have a teammate of the same caliber as of those two. Steph choked when it mattered the most. Paul chokes in the playoffs when he has blake griffin by his side. All of these superstars have failed even if they had a top 10 player with them.

I think Lebron shouldn't be excluded from that list.

[100%duncan]

I think Lebron shouldn't be excluded from that list.

Why? Yes he failed Miami in 2011 but aside from that, he was able to be the best player while getting the most out of his team.

[SupremeGuy]

No, because if I do he'll most likely get injured :lolhttp://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/012/132/thatsthejoke.jpg

[TrainOfThought5]

I don't "blame" Leonard. I just think him and Pop get too much credit for the '12-'14 Spurs and he gets little to no criticism for not making his teammates better in a direct way (a staple of a superstar player) or his team underachieving in the playoffs (even if he did play well in '16).

Hopefully everyone is healthy this season so that people can't make excuses when this team is eliminated in the WCSF or WCF (if the Clippers suffer a significant injury before or during the WCSF).

AI Voice: How the hell im supposed to make my teamates better?

[TD 21]

In 2015, we were the 6th seed and facing our worst matchup in the first round. Our best Blake defender, Splitter was injured before the playoffs. We had to make a deep run and almost got the 2nd seed which Kawhi was a very big part off since he missed a number of games in he season.

Last year was an implosion by the team imho. Kawhi was by far the nwst player in the playoffs. Yes you can fault him for not being Tim or Lebron great in the sense od making the whole team better but those type of guys are once in a lifetime and Kawhi is the player that rose to superstardom rather than "having" it naturally. Which is probably the biggest thing that we are gonna miss from Tim. Look, aside from Lebron which current superstar can you say will never fail his team when the going gets toughest? Durant and westbrook both blew a 3-1 lead. Kawhi doesn't have a teammate of the same caliber as of those two. Steph choked when it mattered the most. Paul chokes in the playoffs when he has blake griffin by his side. All of these superstars have failed even if they had a top 10 player with them.

The Thunder were always the Spurs worst match-up of the past half decade, but you're missing the point: Rightly or wrongly, the Spurs were favored in '15 against the Clippers and '16 against the Thunder and no matter how well they play, all those players you named face heaps of criticism when their respective team loses in the playoffs. Why should Leonard be any different? Especially considering he's the least accomplished of the bunch as a lead option, though obviously in the least amount of chances.



You say that every superstar made his teammates better on offense? I'd say that Kobe didn't. Like many other superstars in NBA history who didn't do it.

To me, Kawhi already makes his teammates better in many ways...Without him this team is a shit. But I'm fine with you saying otherwise.



So Kawhi played well but most role players were ugly, the coach made big mistakes with his lineups and playbook...but Kawhi deserved the criticism.

Yep. That's fair.

That's not at all what I said. I said, directly making your teammates better is a staple of a superstar player. You can only be so good in this sport without doing so.

Obviously, he's irreplaceable and they'd be worse off, but to say they'd suck is ridiculous because there's no way of knowing what they'd do with those resources.

There's plenty of criticism to go around. All I'm saying is, that's life as an elite player and the only one exempt from it, is him.


AI Voice: How the hell im supposed to make my teamates better?

If you've got a high IQ and are unselfish, it's not difficult.

[dabom]

Porker playing worse than gimp leg Tiago. :lmao

Duncan getting injured is a huge hit.

Kinda like GSW in 2014 and 2016. See that correlation again? Stay losing. :lmao

[NameLess Scrub]

Why? Yes he failed Miami in 2011 but aside from that, he was able to be the best player while getting the most out of his team.

Well, 2011 is a good example he's capable of failing his team when needed. It was rumored he quit on the Cavs in 2010 too. I guess you mean he won't do that anymore.

[100%duncan]

Well, 2011 is a good example he's capable of failing his team when needed. It was rumored he quit on the Cavs in 2010 too. I guess you mean he won't do that anymore.

2011 yes but he was probably still the MVP of that season, no question on his lackluster finals though. And people who believe that shit only watch youtube videos :lol he was the only one doing shit on the road against the celtics iirc

[Dex]

Good post tbh OP.

[YGWHI]

and they'd be worse
Agree.

The Spurs are also 10.1 points better per 100 possessions offensively when he's on the floor and give up 12.4 more points defensively when he's on the bench
http://www.thescore.com/nba/news/1167128-popovich-lauds-leonard-s-leadership-he-s-never-going-to-be-a-towel-waver



If you've got a high IQ and are unselfish, it's not difficult.
So you say that Kawhi doesn't make his teammates better, then you says a player has to be unselfish with a high IQ to do it...

Just hilarious. This the first time that I read a guy suggesting Kawhi is selfish and a low IQ player.

I get that Kawhi as the franchise player now, will receive a ton of criticism in every Spurs' loss, he's gonna be blamed for every Spurs loss...But if he plays well, good, great in those games I won't agree on burning him for it.

[TD 21]

Agree.

http://www.thescore.com/nba/news/1167128-popovich-lauds-leonard-s-leadership-he-s-never-going-to-be-a-towel-waver



So you say that Kawhi doesn't make his teammates better, then you says a player has to be unselfish with a high IQ to do it...

Just hilarious. This the first time that I read a guy suggesting Kawhi is selfish and a low IQ player.

I get that Kawhi as the franchise player now, will receive a ton of criticism in every Spurs' loss, he's gonna be blamed for every Spurs loss...But if he plays well, good, great in those games I won't agree on burning him for it.

Again, no reading comprehension. I specifically said, Leonard doesn't make his teammates better offensively in a direct way. In other words, he has tunnel vision and is terrible at making plays for others.

[dabom]

Again, no reading comprehension. I specifically said, Leonard doesn't make his teammates better offensively in a direct way. In other words, he has tunnel vision and is terrible at making plays for others.

Except he does. What are you smoking dude. :lmao

[dabom]

Kawhi draws doubles and triples with ease, spots up from 3 because he can space the floor, slashes/cuts off ball, runs the pnr and shoots with the clock running down all the time. :lmao

[TD 21]

Except he does. What are you smoking dude. :lmao

He doesn't. Of course they're significantly better when he's on the floor: he's arguably a top 5 player in the world and neither of his backups are proven rotation players.

[dabom]

He doesn't. Of course they're significantly better when he's on the floor: he's arguably a top 5 player in the world and neither of his backups are proven rotation players.

Brah he does. He draws the double or triple and even spots up Danny Patty Gasol and lma all the time...

[TD 21]

Brah he does. He draws the double or triple and even spots up Danny Patty Gasol and lma all the time...

He's like DeRozan in this regard: He generally only passes when he has to and they're almost always reactive and basic ones. He doesn't have the capacity to manipulate defenses.

[dabom]

He's like DeRozan in this regard: He generally only passes when he has to and they're almost always reactive and basic ones. He doesn't have the capacity to manipulate defenses.

We are debating whether he makes players around him better on offense. Clearly you are wrong here. :lol

[TD 21]

We are debating whether he makes players around him better on offense. Clearly you are wrong here. :lol

No, we're debating whether he makes players around him better in a direct (play making) way.

His assist percentage is a paltry 17.2%, an embarrassingly low number for a high usage (30.5%) perimeter player.

[tonight...you]

This is a fascinating discourse, you 2. Please continue...

[dabom]

I don't "blame" Leonard. I just think him and Pop get too much credit for the '12-'14 Spurs and he gets little to no criticism for not making his teammates better in a direct way (a staple of a superstar player) or his team underachieving in the playoffs (even if he did play well in '16).

Hopefully everyone is healthy this season so that people can't make excuses when this team is eliminated in the WCSF or WCF (if the Clippers suffer a significant injury before or during the WCSF).


No, we're debating whether he makes players around him better in a direct (play making) way.

His assist percentage is a paltry 17.2%, an embarrassingly low number for a high usage (30.5%) perimeter player.

First off all, players can make players around them better through the post game by sucking in multiple defenders and kicking out, and by normal playmaking. Both of those are direct. And the Spurs are known to keep passing it to the open man. Kawhi will not always be the assist man, but he is making players better either though the post or PnR action. And lets just say you switched your idea from directly to playmaking. :lmao

[dabom]

You need to stop being wrong here. :lmao

[TD 21]

And lets just say you switched your idea from directly to playmaking. :lmao

Nah, I just put the latter in brackets to make myself clear when I say directly because I know some will point to his on/off numbers and claim it's direct and it is, in a sense; just not the one I mean.

[dabom]

Nah, I just put the latter in brackets to make myself clear when I say directly because I know some will point to his on/off numbers and claim it's direct and it is, in a sense; just not the one I mean.

I'm not talking impact. I'm talking about his actual game.

[Kawhitstorm]

He's like DeRozan in this regard: He generally only passes when he has to and they're almost always reactive and basic ones. He doesn't have the capacity to manipulate defenses.

He's a scorer who is willing to pass when the defense collapses. LeBron is considered a scorer despite scoring more point that anyone in his age group b/c his first instinct isn't to score but rather set up teammates. Jordan/Bird were unstoppable offensive forces b/c they could do both at an elite level.

The issue is only when players are on the extreme end of either one: Kirby vs. Diaw