Spurs @ Wizards (17/82) (6 PM Central/12:00 GMT) Sponsored By TARP Games

[RD2191]

It's a block party.

[ElNono]

It's a block party

[Cry Havoc]

David Lee with 2 blocks in the same possession. :wow Holy shit where did this defense come from!?

[Kawhitstorm]

The last couple of sequences:lmao

[r0drig0lac]

Simmons with a great game today

[LoneStarState'sPride]

You do NOT just come into the Spurs' paint and throw up weak shit.

[ElNono]

:lol

[spursistan]

Lee has been fuckin amazing with his effort...great great pickup.

[DPG21920]

Good old fashioned beat down. Spurs on the road this year make what has happened at home even more head scratching.

[Vokun]

Juice hustlin his ass off out there

[ElNono]

Manu finally got same rest to boot :tu

[313]

David Lee with 2 blocks in the same possession. :wow Holy shit where did this defense come from!?
Honestly :lol

Prior to him joining the Spurs all I ever heard about this guy was how much of a sieve he was on defense

[DPG21920]

Let's get Murray some minutes

[Cry Havoc]

Oh man that's pretty ball movement. Gasol beaming. good signs.

[313]

Good old fashioned beat down. Spurs on the road this year make what has happened at home even more head scratching.
We'll just have to chalk those early home losses up to Tony and Danny being injured/DNP

[elemento]

OKC wasted several years of Durant/Westbrook prime with this mediocre coach :lmao

[DPG21920]

Manu finally got same rest to boot :tu

Bruh, he's playing 19 MPG how do you need rest :lol?

[bklynspursfan]

that's why I love Simmons. When he fucks up, he doesn't give up on the play

I think that's one of the several reasons he's getting more time vs Anderson honestly. He makes some bonehead plays sometimes, but the dude hustles and doesn't give up on plays as we just saw

[Cry Havoc]

Another block!

[spursistan]

Brooks coaching the poor man's version of Thunder team was going to look like this :lol..

[ElNono]

Bruh, he's playing 19 MPG how do you need rest :lol?

39 years old...

tbh, if Simms would play every game like tonight, Manu wouldn't need to play even 20mpg

[sasaint]

Simmons with a great game today

Too many fouls. He needs to get those under control, but more and more he is playing under control within the flow of the offense. Tonight is exciting because he has shown BOTH that patience and the explosive dunks. I think the guy is turning the corner to become an integral part of the rotation. :tu

[313]

John Wall got thoroughly outplayed tonight by both our PGs

[RD2191]

MVHAM

[Kawhitstorm]

Let's get Murray some minutes

He almost blew a 15 point lead in 2 minutes last time he checked in early.:wakeup

[r0drig0lac]

Tony Curry

[elemento]

Hurts me to say this, but SA hasn't missed a beat without Ginobili.

[sasaint]

39 years old...

tbh, if Simms would play every game like tonight, Manu wouldn't need to play even 20mpg

Perhaps by the end of the RS. :tu

[DPG21920]

He almost blew a 15 point lead in 2 minutes last time he checked in early.:wakeup

He needs time

[RD2191]

Man, wizards must feel like shit if Tony Parker is beasting on you.

[bklynspursfan]

Honestly :lol

Prior to him joining the Spurs all I ever heard about this guy was how much of a sieve he was on defense

There was a lot said about him that just turned out to be irrelevant when he got here. I kept saying what guys did elsewhere doesn't mean it'll happen here. On paper, Lee addressed many of our issues we had off the bench. He's proving it with his play thus far

[DPG21920]

39 years old...

tbh, if Simms would play every game like tonight, Manu wouldn't need to play even 20mpg

:LOL Dem excuses. If you are taking 14M I don't care how old you are, you should not need rest for 19MPG.

[RD2191]

Hurts me to say this, but SA hasn't missed a beat without Ginobili.

Chill, the wiz have no bench. He'll be needed against top teams.

[DPG21920]

Because if you are saying he should be playing less than 19MPG then by default you are saying he is not really needed and thus a really poor signing.

[RD2191]

:LOL Dem excuses. If you are taking 14M I don't care how old you are, you should not need rest for 19MPG.
You're short. Your opinion doesn't matter.

[ElNono]

Hurts me to say this, but SA hasn't missed a beat without Ginobili.

People that are usually up and down played well tonight, tbh... Tony, Simms...

Now I've been saying I'm not a fan of Manu playing back to back, so I'm glad he rested.

[BatManu20]

Simmons!! Holy shit

[r0drig0lac]

WOW ...my man

[loveforthegame]

Simmons!!

[RD2191]

Damn, what a babe.

[Cry Havoc]

HOLY FUCK


BOW DOWN

TO

JONATHAN

[sasaint]

Whoa! SIMMONS!!!

[RD2191]

Lots of spurs fans in DC.

[AZK619]

:wow

[ElNono]

:LOL Dem excuses. If you are taking 14M I don't care how old you are, you should not need rest for 19MPG.

What excuses? I've been saying playing Manu back to back is a bad idea. First time this season it happened, I feel validated.

Now it makes more sense he closed out the Celtics yesterday.

[DPG21920]

Take kawhi out now please. He's someone that actually does need rest.

[timtonymanu]

Man if Simmons can just play consistent (sure he'll have his bad outings), it will really help the Spurs.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Gasol :lol

[DPG21920]

What excuses? I've been saying playing Manu back to back is a bad idea. First time this season it happened, I feel validated.

Now it makes more sense he closed out the Celtics yesterday.

I'm saying that acting like Simmons playing poorly and Manu having to play a whopping 19MPG is a thing. If you make 14M you better play more than that and not need rest.

[GSH]

LOL... Aldridge is no Jonathan Simmons.

[bklynspursfan]

I'd be pretty thrilled if we keep them under 100.

[elemento]

Chill, the wiz have no bench. He'll be needed against top teams.

Their starting unit is nothing special as well tbh

TP took a dump on John Wall tonight. But I agree we'll need super Manu come playoff time. Hopefully he shows up.

[ElNono]

Because if you are saying he should be playing less than 19MPG then by default you are saying he is not really needed and thus a really poor signing.

Not true. Leadership, mentorship, corporate knowledge is what Pop valued when it comes to Manu, per his own words, this season. He's had to play more mins because the kids haven't showed up on a consistent basis.

But I'm not going to renege when Simms has a good game

[loveforthegame]

Stop fooling around. Good timeout.

[DPG21920]

Not true. Leadership, mentorship, corporate knowledge is what Pop valued when it comes to Manu, per his own words, this season. He's had to play more mins because the kids haven't showed up on a consistent basis.

But I'm not going to renege when Simms has a good game

More minutes?? 19MPG is terrible.

[ElNono]

I'm saying that acting like Simmons playing poorly and Manu having to play a whopping 19MPG is a thing. If you make 14M you better play more than that and not need rest.

Of course is a thing. The bench hasn't been stellar because the kids that were supposed to 'grow up' his season have been really inconsistent. It's been an ongoing theme, tbh. That puts more load on Patty and Manu to produce

[spurs10]

That put back by Simms will be replayed all night!

[Robz4000]

Good old fashioned beat down. Spurs on the road this year make what has happened at home even more head scratching.

Not that headscratching, we're seeing the same thing now that the Spurs had a large lead: this team tends to sleepwalk often. Never happened when Tim was playing.

[313]

802695290579013632

[james evans]

I'm still wondering how this team beat us with that bs 3 pointer by Beal last season. I guess Nene was the factor lol

[elemento]

People that are usually up and down played well tonight, tbh... Tony, Simms...

Now I've been saying I'm not a fan of Manu playing back to back, so I'm glad he rested.

I'm glad too. Hopefully he takes full advantage of the rest in the next game. He doesn't need to be "fancy/wild" Manu. Normal Manu would be ok for me in the RS. We're gonna need him playing well in the playoffs.

[BatManu20]

802696612975812608

[ElNono]

More minutes?? 19MPG is terrible.

He should be playing 15 tops and no back to backs, IMO.

But for that to happen this Simmons has to show up every game

[DPG21920]

He should be playing 15 tops and no back to backs, IMO.

But for that to happen this Simmons has to show up every game

:lol Well, we just have to disagree then that 14M for 15MPG is a good deal.

[ElNono]

How good/bad are these Wiz anyways? First time I see them this season. Playoff team?

[sasaint]

Man, the last 2-3 mins have been pretty ugly. I wish they had kept their concentration better.

[ElNono]

:lol Well, we just have to disagree then that 14M for 15MPG is a good deal.

Philly wanted to pay $17M. Market says it's a good deal.

[DPG21920]

Philly wanted to pay $17M. Market says it's a good deal.

Market "said" it's a good deal. No one is saying it's a good deal now.

[TheGreatYacht]

This is the loudest Pro-Spurs crowd we've seen all season, tbh.. we should play home games there

[DPG21920]

Besides the point I am fine w/ Manu being back and making whatever money. Just feel it's really dishonest to act like he's earning it this year.

No need for the excuses - he's earned the money and SA paid what the market dictated. Doesn't mean he's "worth" it and that is the type of intellectual dishonesty that drives the Manu/TP wedge.

[Vokun]

If Parker could play like this all season, he would be worth his contract. Hopefully he continues.

[ElNono]

Market "said" it's a good deal. No one is saying it's a good deal now.

I'm just glad he gave us a discount to stay a Spur for life, tbh... He didn't need to, but goes to show he's all about the team

[Kawhitstorm]

This is the loudest Pro-Spurs crowd we've seen all season, tbh.. we should play home games there

EMO Dominos didn't consider signing w/ the Wiz b/c the fans were cheering for the visitors.:lol

[bklynspursfan]

Wow Murray lol

[GSH]

Man I hate the way Murray has to crouch when he's dribbling. I wish they would just make him a 2 guard.

[ElNono]

Besides the point I am fine w/ Manu being back and making whatever money. Just feel it's really dishonest to act like he's earning it this year.

No need for the excuses - he's earned the money and SA paid what the market dictated. Doesn't mean he's "worth" it and that is the type of intellectual dishonesty that drives the Manu/TP wedge.

Nobody I know made the claim he's worth that money, AFAIK

[TheGreatYacht]

I'm just glad he gave us a discount to stay a Spur for life, tbh... He didn't need to, but goes to show he's all about the team
:lmao

[spursistan]

Man Murray shot is ugly and broken AF..Nigga is two years removed from getting even spot minutes in rotation..

[Kawhitstorm]

Murray rewarded the fans for the support they showed throughout the game.:toast

[DPG21920]

:lol Not shooting a 3 when you're down 12 to settle for a long 2. Burke :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

Pop and Kawhi recruiting Wall.....

hopefully he can follow in TP's shoes

[DarrinS]

W

[r0drig0lac]

easy win

[DPG21920]

Nobody I know made the claim he's worth that money, AFAIK

:lmao Well apparently the "market" said it's a good deal. It can't be a good deal if a player is not worth it.

[Kawhitstorm]

Man I hate the way Murray has to crouch when he's dribbling. I wish they would just make him a 2 guard.

He's going to be a combo guard, dude is turnover prone to ever be a point guard.

[Kawhitstorm]

Pop and Kawhi recruiting Wall.....

hopefully he can follow in TP's shoes

TGY w/ the inside scoop::wow

[spurraider21]

:lmao Well apparently the "market" said it's a good deal. It can't be a good deal if a player is not worth it.not true. market sets the prices, not necessarily a player's worth. doesn't determine what's a good deal. the market made gordon hayward a max player, it doesnt make him worth the max, etc

[Kawhitstorm]

Man Murray shot is ugly and broken AF..Nigga is two years removed from getting even spot minutes in rotation..

If Kawhi was a computer that needed a software upgrade then Murray is a sleek computer case.

[DPG21920]

not true. market sets the prices, not necessarily a player's worth. doesn't determine what's a good deal.

Sure - but that's not what he said. He said the market said it's a good deal. That's different.

[sasaint]

Man I hate the way Murray has to crouch when he's dribbling. I wish they would just make him a 2 guard.

I wasn't familiar with him at all before the Spurs drafted him. He is just so raw in every aspect of the game. For him to become a decent 2, Chip would have to perform a serious miracle. Maybe there is less to fix for him to become a PG...?

[ElNono]

:lmao Well apparently the "market" said it's a good deal. It can't be a good deal if a player is not worth it.

No. The market set the price. Whether it's worth it or not depends on what value you assign to it. The Spurs were pretty clear as far as what value they were looking for in Manu, and has little to do with mpg or ppg, etc.

Now you and I are not the Spurs and are free to use a different barometer...

[loveforthegame]

Impressive road trip. :tu

[ElNono]

Sure - but that's not what he said. He said the market said it's a good deal. That's different.

You're conflating good deal with a players worth. The fact that another team offered 17M and the Spurs paid 14M is a good deal. Whether he's worth 14M (or 17M) is a completely different story.

[Kawhitstorm]

I wasn't familiar with him at all before the Spurs drafted him. He is just so raw in every aspect of the game. For him to become a decent 2, Chip would have to perform a serious miracle. Maybe there is less to fix for him to become a PG...?

He was drafted based on his athleticism & length along w/ his ability to handle the ball better than most guys his size. He might just end up being a rich man's version of Simmons once his body fills out which would make him a solid rotation player.

[sasaint]

If Parker could play like this all season, he would be worth his contract. Hopefully he continues.

:toast Seems like I have thought that after almost every one of his games. :wow I am rather optimistic about Tony this season. :tu

[r0drig0lac]

Jamychal green going ham in miami

[DPG21920]

You're conflating good deal with a players worth. The fact that another team offered 17M and the Spurs paid 14M is a good deal. Whether he's worth 14M (or 17M) is a completely different story.

No-no, nono. You know what you did. Only after called on it did you start in with the market value stuff. You even started listing value things (leadership, etc..) that has nothing to do with the market price.

[Robz4000]

ElNono in damage control for The Client.

[sasaint]

He was drafted based on his athleticism & length along w/ his ability to handle the ball better than most guys his size. He might just end up being a rich man's version of Simmons once his body fills out.

At this point, that would exceed my expectations - especially with the growth we are seeing in Simmons' game. I'm pretty bullish on Simmons at this point.

[Robz4000]

Impressive road trip. :tu

Agreed. Said going into it I expected them to go 2-1 or 1-2, but that if they went 3-0 it'd be a sign they're improving. Happy with what I've seen.

[SpurPadre]

Didn't think TP would score 20 again, tbh.

[ElNono]

No-no, nono. You know what you did. Only after called on it did you start in with the market value stuff. You even started listing value things (leadership, etc..) that has nothing to do with the market price.

You brought up 19 mpg alongside the price tag... you want me to quote you?

What I listed are things Pop has mentioned. You need me to quote Pop on that?

[ElNono]

ElNono in damage control for The Client.

Why? I've been saying playing Manu back to back is a bad idea. I feel validated, tbh

[DPG21920]

You brought up 19 mpg alongside the price tag... you want me to quote you?

What I listed are things Pop has mentioned. You need me to quote Pop on that?

I know that, but you listed them as a counterpoint in your defense of Manu as "worth".

[Ditty]

If only Simmons no was consistent...

[ElNono]

I know that, but you listed them as a counterpoint in your defense of Manu as "worth".

No, I listed them as what the Spurs consider "worth" for Manu... I also said you and I are not the Spurs and are free to have a different barometer...

I don't think he's worth 14M even playing 15 mpg, but I'm also aware I'm not the Spurs and I don't look for the same values.

[Chinook]

not true. market sets the prices, not necessarily a player's worth. doesn't determine what's a good deal. the market made gordon hayward a max player, it doesnt make him worth the max, etc

Hayward is not a great example. He's going to get the max again, and no one is going to bat an eye. Dude's definitely worth his contract sucky core piece or no.

[ElNono]

Hayward is not a great example. He's going to get the max again, and no one is going to bat an eye. Dude's definitely worth his contract sucky core piece or no.

You think? He's peaking out as a 6th man...

[sasaint]

If only Simmons no was consistent...

I think he is getting more and more consistent. He ain't there yet, but he is improving steadily.

[Chinook]

We don't know who else was on the Spurs' radar or whether they had an under-the-table deal with Manu. I doubt the Spurs are thinking about his salary at this point.

[LakerHater]

Tony Parker was the fuckn man tonite!!!

[Chinook]

You think? He's peaking out as a 6th man...

Dude's averaging 20/7/4. That's better than what LMA is doing right now. More than worth the $16 Million or whatever he's getting.

[GSH]

I wasn't familiar with him at all before the Spurs drafted him. He is just so raw in every aspect of the game. For him to become a decent 2, Chip would have to perform a serious miracle. Maybe there is less to fix for him to become a PG...?


We've see Chip do a lot to help shooting strokes. I like the chances of that happening a lot better than trying to make an NBA PG out of a guy who isn't equipped to do it.

[ElNono]

Dude's averaging 20/7/4. That's better than what LMA is doing right now. More than worth the $16 Million or whatever he's getting.

Doesn't he have a "star" role on his team though? LMA was doing better than that in Portland too (even with Lillard around).

I mean, on a contender, I don't think he's better than a sixth man...

[r0drig0lac]

Hayward is one of the level B players in the league, this worth the max today, no question

[DPG21920]

No one, even me, cares what Manu is making at this point. It was just comments about even thinking of implying he's worth his deal.

That needs to be squashed. Especially for someone that still needs "rest" after playing only 19MPG. Again, if he was only slated for a 15MPG role if the "others played better" then we better never hear anyone saying Manu is worth his deal.

Im happy he's back, I don't care what he makes. But with all the TP hate on this site, no one should be saying anything about manu.

[Chinook]

Doesn't he have a "star" role on his team though? LMA was doing better than that in Portland too (even with Lillard around).

I mean, on a contender, I don't think he's better than a sixth man...

Well, that's very possible. But teams don't get their salary caps based on contender status. He's very much Utah's best player and deserves the biggest contract. He's not like Derrick Favors and completely overrated.

[Kawhitstorm]

At this point, that would exceed my expectations - especially with the growth we are seeing in Simmons' game. I'm pretty bullish on Simmons at this point.

His college career is pretty similar to Reggie Jackson's who had an atrocious rookie season after actually staying in college for 3 years. It's too early to say what's he's going to end up being, guards drafted on potential usually have horrific rookie seasons i.e. Mudiay.

[ElNono]

Well, that's very possible. But teams don't get their salary caps based on contender status. He's very much Utah's best player and deserves the biggest contract. He's not like Derrick Favors and completely overrated.

I won't argue with that.

[sasaint]

We've see Chip do a lot to help shooting strokes. I like the chances of that happening a lot better than trying to make an NBA PG out of a guy who isn't equipped to do it.

You could be right. His handles and court vision don't make me think "Point Guard!" If he becomes a rich man's Jonathon Simmons, I will be pleasantly surprised.

[HarlemHeat37]

Wizards are a bad team, overall, but their bench unit is especially poor..they rank worst in the NBA in most metrics, so it wasn't surprising to see them get destroyed by Mills/Simmons/Lee, tbh..

[TampaDude]

All we do is win, and all we do is win...

[ElNono]

No one, even me, cares what Manu is making at this point. It was just comments about even thinking of implying he's worth his deal.

That needs to be squashed. Especially for someone that still needs "rest" after playing only 19MPG. Again, if he was only slated for a 15MPG role if the "others played better" then we better never hear anyone saying Manu is worth his deal.

Im happy he's back, I don't care what he makes. But with all the TP hate on this site, no one should be saying anything about manu.

Look, my ideal situation coming into the season was that Manu was going to mentor Simms and Kyle, play a reduced (15MPG or less, no back to backs) role, and then the natural evolution of those players into serviceable bench players would make Manu largely irrelevant. Was that worth $14m? I don't think it was. But as Chinook said, Manu has played for way less than that in the past, so it's possible they had some sort of wink-wink thing going, we'll never know. We do know about the Philly thing, but we also don't know how much that influenced the final price tag.

Ultimately, he was signed with capspace anyways, so that's Holt's money and it doesn't extend past this season, so it doesn't really matters, IMO.

What's more worrying to me is that neither Simms or Kyle have so far been consistent enough to make Manu truly irrelevant. It's concerning because it means the bench needs to keep on relying on him at somewhat a large degree, and under that scenario, that's why keeping him fresh and healthy matters. That's where I felt that playing back to backs was a bad idea right now.

If Simms can play like this game or the Dubs game every night, then Manu getting rest or not doesn't matter, as he wouldn't be playing much anyways.

[sasaint]

His college career is pretty similar to Reggie Jackson's who had an atrocious rookie season after actually staying in college for 3 years. It's too early to say what's he's going to end up being, guards drafted on potential usually have horrific rookie seasons i.e. Mudiay.

If Murray could replicate Jackson's career, that certainly would beat my expectations at this point. One thing is certain, Dijon would be a PG in the Tony mold - not a pass-first PG. Tony was once a blur, too, so maybe he is a good role model (if not mentor) for Dijon.

[DPG21920]

I agree ^ I just dont want to hear TP hate when Manu is in the same boat.

[ElNono]

I agree ^ I just dont want to hear TP hate when Manu is in the same boat.

There's no natural replacement for TP though. I don't see the Spurs have signed any guard that TP should be mentoring to take over his role next season.

They're two largely different situations (and I want TP to do well, he's just had two-three poor seasons past February, just makes you wonder, since there's apparently no plan B outside of Patty).

[Kawhitstorm]

We've see Chip do a lot to help shooting strokes. I like the chances of that happening a lot better than trying to make an NBA PG out of a guy who isn't equipped to do it.

He needs to cut out the 3 pointers & work on his floater/mid-range, MCW won ROY while shooting 25% from 3 & Murray was essentially the MCW of the NCAA.:lol

[sasaint]

I agree ^ I just dont want to hear TP hate when Manu is in the same boat.

Tony is critical to the Spurs' success. When he has played this season, he has played well for the most part. And he also seems to be making the transition to his new role.

[ducks]

All we do is win, and all we do is win...

Trump in charge!!!!

[DPG21920]

There's no natural replacement for TP though. I don't see the Spurs have signed any guard that TP should be mentoring to take over his role next season.

They're two largely different situations (and I want TP to do well, he's just had two-three poor seasons past February, just makes you wonder, since there's apparently no plan B outside of Patty).

Just because SA didn't do their job in getting someone to help TP doesn't mean he's not in the same boat.

[sasaint]

Just because SA didn't do their job in getting someone to help TP doesn't mean he's not in the same boat.

I think Simmons has been doing a lot more ball-handling this season - primarily for Pop to monitor his potential to play more PG.

[ElNono]

Just because SA didn't do their job in getting someone to help TP doesn't mean he's not in the same boat.

But they're not. IMO, the plan this season is not to rely (much) on Manu come playoff time, instead offload more of that on Simmons and/or Kyle. At least one could glean that coming into the season.

There's no such plans for TP. I'm not saying that's TP's fault either, but it's a completely different 'boat' we're looking at here.

[Hoops Czar]

There's no natural replacement for TP though. I don't see the Spurs have signed any guard that TP should be mentoring to take over his role next season.

They're two largely different situations (and I want TP to do well, he's just had two-three poor seasons past February, just makes you wonder, since there's apparently no plan B outside of Patty).

Plan B was suppose to be Manu. You don't triple your original offer price just because another team makes an offer unless you feel Ginobili can be a huge contributor. You shouldn't be making sentimental decisions when trying to run a business unless you're trying to run the business into the ground. If another team did what the Spurs did with Manu, they'd be laughed at and ridiculed by every single member of Spurstalk. As far as I'm concerned, Parker gets a get out of jail free card as long as Ginobili continues to play this poorly for the remainder of the season.

I don't want to hear anymore age comparisons.... Tony Parker has played 10,000+ more regular season minutes and 1500+ more playoff minutes than Ginobili at the highest level of basketball on the planet. That equates to an additional 6+ seasons. Manu has averaged 30 MPG twice in his career compared to Parker's eleven. Tony has every right to be tired and Gassed at age 34.

[Hoops Czar]

But they're not. IMO, the plan this season is not to rely (much) on Manu come playoff time, instead offload more of that on Simmons and/or Kyle. At least one could glean that coming into the season.

There's no such plans for TP. I'm not saying that's TP's fault either, but it's a completely different 'boat' we're looking at here.

The plan is to let TP's contract run out and then re-sign him for a lot less while giving him a role off the bench. Unless you wanted Conley for a king's ransom this offseason, there wasn't a game changing PG available.

[Chinook]

Plan B was suppose to be Manu. You don't triple your original offer price just because another team makes an offer unless you feel Ginobili can be a huge contributor. You shouldn't be making sentimental decisions when trying to run a business unless you're trying to run the business into the ground. If another team did what the Spurs did with Manu, they'd be laughed at and ridiculed by every single member of Spurstalk. As far as I'm concerned, Parker gets a get out of jail free card as long as Ginobili continues to play this poorly for the remainder of the season.

I don't want to hear anymore age comparisons.... Tony Parker has played 10,000+ more regular season minutes and 1500+ more playoff minutes than Ginobili at the highest level of basketball on the planet. That equates to an additional 6+ seasons. Manu has averaged 30 MPG twice in his career compared to Parker's eleven. Tony has every right to be tired and Gassed at age 34.

Hoop's on fire.

[GSH]

If Manu had played for the vet minimum, he would still have been the exact same player in these first 17 games. Not as good as we want, or the Spurs need. But his play has nothing to do with how much he's making.

The way I remember it, Manu getting paid didn't cost the Spurs roster, except for the spot Manu himself is taking up - it was just money out of Holt's pocket. If Holt wants to give up millions to compensate Manu for past contracts, and to make sure he retires a Spur? I don't care.

I wish Manu was playing better, and I hope he is by the playoffs. But I'm not sure what other player they could have legitimately landed that late in the offseason (they had to wait for Pau and others to sign first). And I'm not sure what better player they could have legitimately landed for the budget offer they could have given someone else.

[GSH]

He needs to cut out the 3 pointers & work on his floater/mid-range, MCW won ROY while shooting 25% from 3 & Murray was essentially the MCW of the NCAA.:lol


Hard to argue with any of that. If he can improve his 3P shot, THEN he can take them. But this year he needs to quit shooting them. I still think his biggest asset is his athleticism, and there's a place for a slashing 2 guard. He could do the same thing that Simmons is starting to do, which is use his penetration to set up teammates. If he can't hang onto the ball well enough to slash, then he can't hang onto it enough to be a point.

[ElNono]

Plan B was suppose to be Manu. You don't triple your original offer price just because another team makes an offer unless you feel Ginobili can be a huge contributor. You shouldn't be making sentimental decisions when trying to run a business unless you're trying to run the business into the ground. If another team did what the Spurs did with Manu, they'd be laughed at and ridiculed by every single member of Spurstalk. As far as I'm concerned, Parker gets a get out of jail free card as long as Ginobili continues to play this poorly for the remainder of the season.

I don't want to hear anymore age comparisons.... Tony Parker has played 10,000+ more regular season minutes and 1500+ more playoff minutes than Ginobili at the highest level of basketball on the planet. That equates to an additional 6+ seasons. Manu has averaged 30 MPG twice in his career compared to Parker's eleven. Tony has every right to be tired and Gassed at age 34.

Pop's own words, and I quote:

"Losing Tim made it absolutely imperative that we keep him," Popovich said Thursday. "To lose them both at the same time, it would've been like death by a thousands cuts. It would've been awful."

Where's the "huge contributor" there? Plan B? How about stop making stuff up?

Manu is there for cultural/corporate knowledge reasons, period. He obviously has *certain* value that go beyond the raw numbers, as the Spurs were not the only suitors for him at 39 years old this season, but let's stop pretending they have anything to do with stuff beyond mentoring, being a professional, leading by example, etc.

Anybody thinking the Spurs expect him to be some sort of catalyst in the playoffs is simply deluding themselves and setting themselves up for disappointment, tbh...

That's a very different role from TP though... It's obvious that drafting Murray they're trying to emulate a similar situation, but nobody in their right mind thinks the plan is for Murray to take over next season, nor that Tony is going to retire. They fully intend to ride Parker as a crucial part of this team in the playoffs. Therein lies the difference, and why it's not "the same boat".


The plan is to let TP's contract run out and then re-sign him for a lot less while giving him a role off the bench. Unless you wanted Conley for a king's ransom this offseason, there wasn't a game changing PG available.

Why does it has to be an elite PG? Simmons, who's being touted as Manu's replacement was found in what literally is the league's trash can. Kyle was drafted.

How hard is it to admit the team never had plans to find Parker replacement in the short term, and they're never going to move him? I'm totally at peace with that fact, but if you're going to bring up how much mileage he has, then there's absolutely a reason to bitch when he completely breaks down and he's plan A, B and C...

[Chinook]

Manu didn't cost the Spurs $14 Million in cap space, but he did cost them $5.6 Million. I think when you factor in the timing of the deals, the Spurs could have offered another player about $7 Million to play for them. I don't know who would take that in this market, though.

[GSH]

Simmons, who's being touted as Manu's replacement was found in what literally is the league's trash can.


Whether he fills that role or not, Simmons will never be like Manu. BUT... I loved it when he made that shit turnover, and then hauled ass up the floor for the run-down block on the other end. That was very Manu-esque.

[ElNono]

And I should add that people absolutely bitched when Manu was plan A, B, C and he got hurt... you can find countless threads in this place about Manu's alleged fragility, etc.

[GSH]

Manu didn't cost the Spurs $14 Million in cap space, but he did cost them $5.6 Million. I think when you factor in the timing of the deals, the Spurs could have offered another player about $7 Million to play for them. I don't know who would take that in this market, though.


I didn't know they could have shelled out $7M for another player. So I guess using his $5.6M isn't comparing apples to apples. Still, they did have to wait so late that the FA pickings were very slim. I'm still not so sure that $7M would have gotten anyone better, at that point. More likely they would have been able to over-pay a $3.5M player who wouldn't have been any better, and without playoff experience.

[GSH]

And I should add that people absolutely bitched when Manu was plan A, B, C and he got hurt... you can find countless threads in this place about Manu's alleged fragility, etc.


There's never been any prohibition here on trying to have things both ways. :lol

[ElNono]

There's never been any prohibition here on trying to have things both ways. :lol

Absolutely, some people just pretend to have short memory...

[Chinook]

I didn't know they could have shelled out $7M for another player. So I guess using his $5.6M isn't comparing apples to apples. Still, they did have to wait so late that the FA pickings were very slim. I'm still not so sure that $7M would have gotten anyone better, at that point. More likely they would have been able to over-pay a $3.5M player who wouldn't have been any better, and without playoff experience.

Yeah, I don't disagree. Some decent players went from smaller deals, but I can't think of very many $5-7-Million guys at all. Maybe they could have traded for one. But yeah, Manu's cap hold combined with some poor cap optimization gave them a slot. I don't think anyone is upset the Spurs didn't use that money on Lance Thomas, Wayne Ellington or Luis Scola.

Real-talk: I just went through the list of new signees. It made me want to throw up. Matt Barnes is the only guy I think would be a discussion to have now over Manu who was attainable.

[Arcadian]

Solid win.

[Hoops Czar]

Pop's own words, and I quote:

"Losing Tim made it absolutely imperative that we keep him," Popovich said Thursday. "To lose them both at the same time, it would've been like death by a thousands cuts. It would've been awful."

That's coach speak for "I love you Manu. You're family and family sticks together." It sounds more like he's was trying to justify a one year, $14M contract. How does that quote make sense? Other than nostalgia purposes, how would losing the 2016-17 version of Ginobili be a death by a thousand cuts?



Manu is there for cultural/corporate knowledge reasons, period. He obviously has *certain* value that go beyond the raw numbers, as the Spurs were not the only suitors for him at 39 years old this season, but let's stop pretending they have anything to do with stuff beyond mentoring, being a professional, leading by example, etc.

Okay, but he couldn't do that as an assistant coach? The Spurs could have put him on the payroll for $14M.


That's a very different role from TP though... It's obvious that drafting Murray they're trying to emulate a similar situation, but nobody in their right mind thinks the plan is for Murray to take over next season, nor that Tony is going to retire. They fully intend to ride Parker as a crucial part of this team in the playoffs. Therein lies the difference, and why it's not "the same boat".

We don't know the Spurs intentions. My personal belief is that the Spurs plans were to have Murray ready by the time Parker's contract is up in two years but even that seems like a long shot. Tony isn't going to retire and he won't be traded unless he requests one but, Tony will at some point have a reduced role. After reading that quote you posted, are you saying the Spurs don't intend to ride Ginobili in the playoffs? It sounds like the Spurs not only need Ginobili to play well but they're counting on him to play well. Also, Parker is no longer a crucial part of the Spurs system. He just has to run the offense the best that he can by getting the ball into the hands of the shooters and creators while knocking down an occasional open jump shot. Ginobili, on the other hand, has been the glue that's held the bench together. His lack of postseason production along with Tim Duncan's decline over the last two years are two of the biggest reasons the Spurs haven't made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs.




Why does it has to be an elite PG? Simmons, who's being touted as Manu's replacement was found in what literally is the league's trash can. Kyle was drafted.

How hard is it to admit the team never had plans to find Parker replacement in the short term, and they're never going to move him? I'm totally at peace with that fact, but if you're going to bring up how much mileage he has, then there's absolutely a reason to bitch when he completely breaks down and he's plan A, B and C...

Simmons as Manu's replacement? C'mon son, you're better than that. :lol That's the thing about players that play in the D-league. They're wildly inconsistent and that's why they have a hard time sticking in the NBA. Simmons is already in his prime so what you're seeing is pretty much what you're going to get. Kyle Anderson was a swing and a miss. Did you hear that quote from Pop about how he was going to increase Kyle's workload and possible play him at three positions this season? :lol Pop's head is full of shit. That's why I take his quotes with a grain of salt.

With the rise in the salary cap, explain to me how the Spurs would be able to afford to bring in another guard, even on the cheap? C.J. McCollum and Jimmer Fredette were brought in as backups in the past but neither of them were any good. The Spurs also have an unhealthy obsession with trying to turn sg's into pg's. They tried to turn George Hill into a pg and it failed. They tried to turn Gary Neal into a pg, and it backfired immensely. They're now trying to turn Patty Mills into a pg and it's not working out. The PATFO isn't as smart as people make them out to be. They've made many mistakes over the years and they rarely ever get called out for it. The PATFO probably feels fine with Mills as defacto "plan B" pg if something happens to Parker.

[ElNono]

That's coach speak for "I love you Manu. You're family and family sticks together." It sounds more like he's was trying to justify a one year, $14M contract. How does that quote make sense? Other than nostalgia purposes, how would losing the 2016-17 version of Ginobili be a death by a thousand cuts?

Okay, but he couldn't do that as an assistant coach? The Spurs could have put him on the payroll for $14M.

So no plan B? No "huge contributor"? crofl

That quote only makes sense in the fact that the Spurs has a renowned culture of professionalism, unselfishness, etc that's well known around the league, thanks largely in part to guys like Timmy and Manu, and I suspect Pop wants to keep around for at least one more year to make sure the youngsters, of which this team has many, can see first hand how that works.

The only reason the Spurs would've preferred to keep him as an assistant coach is if they needed an open roster spot. I know you've been trying to understand how salaries and the cap works in the NBA for the past 5+ years, but no, the Spurs couldn't have used that money to sign anybody other than Manu or Bonner (or Boban, although it's debatable the Spurs wanted to commit that much money to him on a multi-year deal). This one year deal works great for the Spurs. It doesn't hamper them in capspace in the next few years, and they have plenty of young kids to send to the D-League if they need a roster spot (Forbes, Murray, etc).


We don't know the Spurs intentions. My personal belief is that the Spurs plans were to have Murray ready by the time Parker's contract is up in two years but even that seems like a long shot. Tony isn't going to retire and he won't be traded unless he requests one but, Tony will at some point have a reduced role. After reading that quote you posted, are you saying the Spurs don't intend to ride Ginobili in the playoffs? It sounds like the Spurs not only need Ginobili to play well but they're counting on him to play well. Also, Parker is no longer a crucial part of the Spurs system. He just has to run the offense the best that he can by getting the ball into the hands of the shooters and creators while knocking down an occasional open jump shot. Ginobili, on the other hand, has been the glue that's held the bench together. His lack of postseason production along with Tim Duncan's decline over the last two years are two of the biggest reasons the Spurs haven't made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs.

That quote has everything to do with keeping around the tradition that made this team great for a long time. There's nothing there about numbers, minutes, production. No, I haven't expected the Spurs to rely on Manu in the playoffs since at least 2015, frankly, when Pop actually benched him for the first time closing out playoff games. End of an era right there. And it makes sense, he's 39. His 2014 run was as unexpected as it was incredible, frankly. Last year they even brought in insurance in Kevin Martin, because the kids weren't growing up fast enough and Pop already knew Manu isn't a difference maker on a consistent basis anymore.

As far as Tony, he's the starting PG and really has no competition for it. And it makes sense, Manu didn't have competition for his spot and neither did Tim when Pop thought they were THE guys at their positions. And all of them took heat (maybe Timmy less so, rightfully) when things didn't go their way. I don't disagree that Tony has a ton of mileage, but the Spurs knew that too, and really, there's clearly no transition in place right now. Maybe the plan was George Hill, but they had to abort in order to get Kawhi. Maybe this year that they drafted a PG, there's a hint something might be happening there, but I fully expect the Spurs to trust Tony with that starting spot until at least this deal is over, and maybe afterwards too. Tim never really lost his starting spot. Maybe Tony doesn't want to end his career coming off the bench. We do know he's going to end his career as a Spur though.

Of course Tim and Manu not being able to carry the load is a big part of why we've not been successful the last couple of seasons. That's how difficult it is to move on from Hall of Fame talent. The Spurs have been transitioning in the meantime, to LMA, Kawhi, and bringing in kids hoping they can be shaped into the complementary pieces this team needs. What the Spurs don't want is to completely lose the culture that the big 3 put in place. It's a process, and it might not work out. I've said last season the Spurs will have trouble moving on from Timmy and Manu retiring and championships will have to wait for a while. There's nothing unrealistic about that, IMO. It's not that Kawhi or LMA are not talented, but it even took Lebron a while once he took the reigns of the league to make it over the top. Winning championships is hard.


Simmons as Manu's replacement? C'mon son, you're better than that. :lol That's the thing about players that play in the D-league. They're wildly inconsistent and that's why they have a hard time sticking in the NBA. Simmons is already in his prime so what you're seeing is pretty much what you're going to get. Kyle Anderson was a swing and a miss. Did you hear that quote from Pop about how he was going to increase Kyle's workload and possible play him at three positions this season? :lol Pop's head is full of shit. That's why I take his quotes with a grain of salt.

With the rise in the salary cap, explain to me how the Spurs would be able to afford to bring in another guard, even on the cheap? C.J. McCollum and Jimmer Fredette were brought in as backups in the past but neither of them were any good. The Spurs also have an unhealthy obsession with trying to turn sg's into pg's. They tried to turn George Hill into a pg and it failed. They tried to turn Gary Neal into a pg, and it backfired immensely. They're now trying to turn Patty Mills into a pg and it's not working out. The PATFO isn't as smart as people make them out to be. They've made many mistakes over the years and they rarely ever get called out for it. The PATFO probably feels fine with Mills as defacto "plan B" pg if something happens to Parker.

First of all, the Spurs have been looking for a backup SG to replace some of Manu's production for the last few seasons and that's really Simmons right now. Kyle makes relative sense only if they want to make him a PG and play Patty as SG. That's the only youngsters that survived from last season, so one would have to assume they're "projects" to an extent. Murray is also likely going to be a project going forward. Bertrans I think it's more of a guy that will stick around if health allows. He's more seasoned.

Second, Patty Mills always played Point Guard. With Portland, with Australia and now with the Spurs. He's not a traditional PG if you will, but in that sense, Tony never has been either. They're scorers (in different ways) and that's apparently how Pop prefers them.

Third, the guard situation will probably merit some consideration in the offseason. I know Manu won't say it yet, but I do think it's likely this is his last year (although, from a capspace situation I don't think it would matter if he wanted to come back, as they could sign him with over the cap money like this season). Patty is going to be a free agent, and I expect some team to really throw some heavy money at him, so it will be interesting to see how that plays out. In a sense, I think that's why they have a QO on Lapro, as insurance, in case they feel like chasing some other FA with that money.

And lastly, the Spurs blew their cash in LMA, Kawhi and this season Gasol. The rest of the players with multi-year deals are on what any other team would deem reasonable deals (even Tony's deal, looking at how the cap increased, looks reasonable. Danny's deal is a bargain, tbh). So the Spurs need to make do with that they can scrape. They've done relatively well, I'd say, considering they've not had a top 10 pick in more than a decade.

[spurs10]

So no plan B? No "huge contributor"? crofl

That quote only makes sense in the fact that the Spurs has a renowned culture of professionalism, unselfishness, etc that's well known around the league, thanks largely in part to guys like Timmy and Manu, and I suspect Pop wants to keep around for at least one more year to make sure the youngsters, of which this team has many, can see first hand how that works.

The only reason the Spurs would've preferred to keep him as an assistant coach is if they needed an open roster spot. I know you've been trying to understand how salaries and the cap works in the NBA for the past 5+ years, but no, the Spurs couldn't have used that money to sign anybody other than Manu or Bonner (or Boban, although it's debatable the Spurs wanted to commit that much money to him on a multi-year deal). This one year deal works great for the Spurs. It doesn't hamper them in capspace in the next few years, and they have plenty of young kids to send to the D-League if they need a roster spot (Forbes, Murray, etc).



That quote has everything to do with keeping around the tradition that made this team great for a long time. There's nothing there about numbers, minutes, production. No, I haven't expected the Spurs to rely on Manu in the playoffs since at least 2015, frankly, when Pop actually benched him for the first time closing out playoff games. End of an era right there. And it makes sense, he's 39. His 2014 run was as unexpected as it was incredible, frankly. Last year they even brought in insurance in Kevin Martin, because the kids weren't growing up fast enough and Pop already knew Manu isn't a difference maker on a consistent basis anymore.

As far as Tony, he's the starting PG and really has no competition for it. And it makes sense, Manu didn't have competition for his spot and neither did Tim when Pop thought they were THE guys at their positions. And all of them took heat (maybe Timmy less so, rightfully) when things didn't go their way. I don't disagree that Tony has a ton of mileage, but the Spurs knew that too, and really, there's clearly no transition in place right now. Maybe the plan was George Hill, but they had to abort in order to get Kawhi. Maybe this year that they drafted a PG, there's a hint something might be happening there, but I fully expect the Spurs to trust Tony with that starting spot until at least this deal is over, and maybe afterwards too. Tim never really lost his starting spot. Maybe Tony doesn't want to end his career coming off the bench. We do know he's going to end his career as a Spur though.

Of course Tim and Manu not being able to carry the load is a big part of why we've not been successful the last couple of seasons. That's how difficult it is to move on from Hall of Fame talent. The Spurs have been transitioning in the meantime, to LMA, Kawhi, and bringing in kids hoping they can be shaped into the complementary pieces this team needs. What the Spurs don't want is to completely lose the culture that the big 3 put in place. It's a process, and it might not work out. I've said last season the Spurs will have trouble moving on from Timmy and Manu retiring and championships will have to wait for a while. There's nothing unrealistic about that, IMO. It's not that Kawhi or LMA are not talented, but it even took Lebron a while once he took the reigns of the league to make it over the top. Winning championships is hard.



First of all, the Spurs have been looking for a backup SG to replace some of Manu's production for the last few seasons and that's really Simmons right now. Kyle makes relative sense only if they want to make him a PG and play Patty as SG. That's the only youngsters that survived from last season, so one would have to assume they're "projects" to an extent. Murray is also likely going to be a project going forward. Bertrans I think it's more of a guy that will stick around if health allows. He's more seasoned.

Second, Patty Mills always played Point Guard. With Portland, with Australia and now with the Spurs. He's not a traditional PG if you will, but in that sense, Tony never has been either. They're scorers (in different ways) and that's apparently how Pop prefers them.

Third, the guard situation will probably merit some consideration in the offseason. I know Manu won't say it yet, but I do think it's likely this is his last year (although, from a capspace situation I don't think it would matter if he wanted to come back, as they could sign him with over the cap money like this season). Patty is going to be a free agent, and I expect some team to really throw some heavy money at him, so it will be interesting to see how that plays out. In a sense, I think that's why they have a QO on Lapro, as insurance, in case they feel like chasing some other FA with that money.

And lastly, the Spurs blew their cash in LMA, Kawhi and this season Gasol. The rest of the players with multi-year deals are on what any other team would deem reasonable deals (even Tony's deal, looking at how the cap increased, looks reasonable. Danny's deal is a bargain, tbh). So the Spurs need to make do with that they can scrape. They've done relatively well, I'd say, considering they've not had a top 10 pick in more than a decade. Well spoken!
.

[gambit1990]

spurs 10-0 on the road... shooting 7% better from the field, 5% better from the line, and get 2 more blocks a game. so far.

[Splits]

It doesn't hamper them in capspace in the next few years, and they have plenty of young kids to send to the D-League if they need a roster spot (Forbes, Murray, etc).


Huh? That's not how it works, this isn't fatbol.

[ElNono]

Huh? That's not how it works, this isn't fatbol.

Two-way contracts and 16th and 17th roster spots are coming though: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/sources-nba-players-association-push-closer-to-new-cba-224612785.html

But it's true that they would need to cut a player this season (which would likely be Forbes or Lapro, IMO) if the wanted to clear out a spot.

[Hoops Czar]

So no plan B? No "huge contributor"? crofl

That quote only makes sense in the fact that the Spurs has a renowned culture of professionalism, unselfishness, etc that's well known around the league, thanks largely in part to guys like Timmy and Manu, and I suspect Pop wants to keep around for at least one more year to make sure the youngsters, of which this team has many, can see first hand how that works.

The only reason the Spurs would've preferred to keep him as an assistant coach is if they needed an open roster spot. I know you've been trying to understand how salaries and the cap works in the NBA for the past 5+ years, but no, the Spurs couldn't have used that money to sign anybody other than Manu or Bonner (or Boban, although it's debatable the Spurs wanted to commit that much money to him on a multi-year deal). This one year deal works great for the Spurs. It doesn't hamper them in capspace in the next few years, and they have plenty of young kids to send to the D-League if they need a roster spot (Forbes, Murray, etc).

I'm pretty sure if some team offered Matt Bonner $14M, the Spurs wouldn't have matched the offer even though he shares the same corporate knowledge, professionalism and unselfishness that Ginobili does. However, in Bonner's case, they chose a free roster spot over paying the vet minimum to bring him back. I know you've been trying understand how advanced stats work for the last 5+ years but, Ginobili has the 4th highest usg rating on the team, ahead of both Parker and Mills. At 19 mpg, that kind of usage rating doesn't suggest he's just here to flash off his professionalism and his so called unselfishness. Can we cut the crap already? You don't triple your original offer just because another team makes an offer unless you feel Ginobili can be a huge part of the team's success OR you don't have a plan "B". They signed Ginobili out of necessity and Manu knew this and he in turn, used his corporate knowledge of the salary cap to get the Spurs to triple their original offer.

I don't pretend to know how the salary cap works but, I've learned to quote people that do.


Manu didn't cost the Spurs $14 Million in cap space, but he did cost them $5.6 Million. I think when you factor in the timing of the deals, the Spurs could have offered another player about $7 Million to play for them. I don't know who would take that in this market, though.




That quote has everything to do with keeping around the tradition that made this team great for a long time. There's nothing there about numbers, minutes, production. No, I haven't expected the Spurs to rely on Manu in the playoffs since at least 2015, frankly, when Pop actually benched him for the first time closing out playoff games. End of an era right there. And it makes sense, he's 39. His 2014 run was as unexpected as it was incredible, frankly. Last year they even brought in insurance in Kevin Martin, because the kids weren't growing up fast enough and Pop already knew Manu isn't a difference maker on a consistent basis anymore.


Pop actually benched Manu in the postseason because he was gassed for carrying a bunch of bench scrubs all season long. Like I've been saying for the last three years, the Spurs need to take some of the pressure off Ginobili in the regular season or he'll be spent by the time the postseason rolls around. You keep crying that the Spurs didn't have a plan "B" for Parker but, they've never had one for Ginobili either. Not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. Kevin Martin wasn't Ginobili insurance. The Spurs were trying to bolster their offense by bringing in a guy who could stick the three and get to the free throw line. He couldn't run an offense to save his life and hadn't even been remotely good since the 2014 season.


As far as Tony, he's the starting PG and really has no competition for it. And it makes sense, Manu didn't have competition for his spot and neither did Tim when Pop thought they were THE guys at their positions. And all of them took heat (maybe Timmy less so, rightfully) when things didn't go their way. I don't disagree that Tony has a ton of mileage, but the Spurs knew that too, and really, there's clearly no transition in place right now. Maybe the plan was George Hill, but they had to abort in order to get Kawhi. Maybe this year that they drafted a PG, there's a hint something might be happening there, but I fully expect the Spurs to trust Tony with that starting spot until at least this deal is over, and maybe afterwards too. Tim never really lost his starting spot. Maybe Tony doesn't want to end his career coming off the bench. We do know he's going to end his career as a Spur though.

First of all, the Spurs have been looking for a backup SG to replace some of Manu's production for the last few seasons and that's really Simmons right now. Kyle makes relative sense only if they want to make him a PG and play Patty as SG. That's the only youngsters that survived from last season, so one would have to assume they're "projects" to an extent. Murray is also likely going to be a project going forward. Bertrans I think it's more of a guy that will stick around if health allows. He's more seasoned.

Second, Patty Mills always played Point Guard. With Portland, with Australia and now with the Spurs. He's not a traditional PG if you will, but in that sense, Tony never has been either. They're scorers (in different ways) and that's apparently how Pop prefers them.

Third, the guard situation will probably merit some consideration in the offseason. I know Manu won't say it yet, but I do think it's likely this is his last year (although, from a capspace situation I don't think it would matter if he wanted to come back, as they could sign him with over the cap money like this season). Patty is going to be a free agent, and I expect some team to really throw some heavy money at him, so it will be interesting to see how that plays out. In a sense, I think that's why they have a QO on Lapro, as insurance, in case they feel like chasing some other FA with that money.

And lastly, the Spurs blew their cash in LMA, Kawhi and this season Gasol. The rest of the players with multi-year deals are on what any other team would deem reasonable deals (even Tony's deal, looking at how the cap increased, looks reasonable. Danny's deal is a bargain, tbh). So the Spurs need to make do with that they can scrape. They've done relatively well, I'd say, considering they've not had a top 10 pick in more than a decade.


First of all, there's clearly no transition in place for Manu either. Jonathan Simmons? :lol Kyle Anderson? :lmao Those two aren't solutions to a problem, they're part of the problem that warrants a solution. While I don't agree, I'm not surprised the Spurs overpaid Ginobili to come back for one more season. Otherwise, It would be death by a thousand cuts., literally. :lol A side note on George Hill, he was traded because the Spurs couldn't transition him into a pg. He wasn't a good fit next to Parker and he was blocked by Manu off the bench. It's funny how nearly everyone wanted George Hill gone before he was eventually traded but, now everyone wants him back. :lol

Secondly, the Spurs did bring in C.J. McCollum and Jimmer Fredette as possible back up plans for Parker but they didn't pan out.

Thirdly, Patty Mills was listed as a pg for team Australia but make no mistake, Dellavedova ran the offense. Patty can't run an NBA offense for a playoff caliber team. If he could, he'd be the Spurs defacto back up plan for Parker. Also, had he been able to run the offense properly, he would have been the guy to take some of the added pressure off Ginobili during the regular season over the past two seasons. He couldn't. Patty provides instant offense off the bench when his shot is dropping but not much else.

Lastly, I have no sauces like 60% of Spurstalk but, I believe Duncan was semi forced into retirement with the addition of Pau Gasol. If Pau opted in to the final year of his deal in Chicago, I think Tim comes back for another year. But you know what they say.... Better to leave a year early than a year too late. That should actually be posted in the Spurs locker room, tbh. :lol

[ElNono]

I'm pretty sure if some team offered Matt Bonner $14M, the Spurs wouldn't have matched the offer even though he shares the same corporate knowledge, professionalism and unselfishness that Ginobili does. However, in Bonner's case, they chose a free roster spot over paying the vet minimum to bring him back. I know you've been trying understand how advanced stats work for the last 5+ years but, Ginobili has the 4th highest usg rating on the team, ahead of both Parker and Mills. At 19 mpg, that kind of usage rating doesn't suggest he's just here to flash off his professionalism and his so called unselfishness. Can we cut the crap already? You don't triple your original offer just because another team makes an offer unless you feel Ginobili can be a huge part of the team's success OR you don't have a plan "B". They signed Ginobili out of necessity and Manu knew this and he in turn, used his corporate knowledge of the salary cap to get the Spurs to triple their original offer.
I don't pretend to know how the salary cap works but, I've learned to quote people that do.

I can't really take you seriously when you try to compare Manu to Bonner when it comes to what both have meant to this franchise, no offense to Matt, tbh... :lol

He ranked #10 on the team in USG % last playoffs, well below even Boris Diaw and West, even Simmons and Kevin Martin, which is exactly what I've been telling you. The Spurs simply have gone away from him in the playoffs, I don't know why would anybody would think it will be different this season. The regular season doesn't matter, it's just burning minutes and trying to figure out who can contribute or not in the big dance.



Pop actually benched Manu in the postseason because he was gassed for carrying a bunch of bench scrubs all season long. Like I've been saying for the last three years, the Spurs need to take some of the pressure off Ginobili in the regular season or he'll be spent by the time the postseason rolls around. You keep crying that the Spurs didn't have a plan "B" for Parker but, they've never had one for Ginobili either. Not sure why this is so hard for you to understand. Kevin Martin wasn't Ginobili insurance. The Spurs were trying to bolster their offense by bringing in a guy who could stick the three and get to the free throw line. He couldn't run an offense to save his life and hadn't even been remotely good since the 2014 season.

He benched him because he's not a difference maker anymore. He's going to maybe have a game or two where things go his way and his shot is falling, but it's a game to game thing, at his age, he doesn't have the same tools he had when he was younger. He can't just drive and finish at will anymore. Some games he'll look fine to great, some games he'll look 39. That's why the Spurs have been trying to build up Simms and brought in a backup plan in Kevin Martin last season (and don't forget Andre Miller too, another ball handler). The Spurs already have a starter SG in Danny, who does his job and fits well in what the starting lineup is trying to do. So yeah, the Spurs did try to bring in a plan B (and arguably a plan C), within the money they have. They're looking to replace a backup SG, not a starting player.


First of all, there's clearly no transition in place for Manu either. Jonathan Simmons? :lol Kyle Anderson? :lmao Those two aren't solutions to a problem, they're part of the problem that warrants a solution. While I don't agree, I'm not surprised the Spurs overpaid Ginobili to come back for one more season. Otherwise, It would be death by a thousand cuts., literally. :lol A side note on George Hill, he was traded because the Spurs couldn't transition him into a pg. He wasn't a good fit next to Parker and he was blocked by Manu off the bench. It's funny how nearly everyone wanted George Hill gone before he was eventually traded but, now everyone wants him back. :lol

Secondly, the Spurs did bring in C.J. McCollum and Jimmer Fredette as possible back up plans for Parker but they didn't pan out.

Thirdly, Patty Mills was listed as a pg for team Australia but make no mistake, Dellavedova ran the offense. Patty can't run an NBA offense for a playoff caliber team. If he could, he'd be the Spurs defacto back up plan for Parker. Also, had he been able to run the offense properly, he would have been the guy to take some of the added pressure off Ginobili during the regular season over the past two seasons. He couldn't. Patty provides instant offense off the bench when his shot is dropping but not much else.

Lastly, I have no sauces like 60% of Spurstalk but, I believe Duncan was semi forced into retirement with the addition of Pau Gasol. If Pau opted in to the final year of his deal in Chicago, I think Tim comes back for another year. But you know what they say.... Better to leave a year early than a year too late. That should actually be posted in the Spurs locker room, tbh. :lol

All I'm saying is Patty always played PG, the claim that the Spurs "tried to make Patty a PG" is simply bogus. He's always been a PG. Maybe not in the mold or with the abilities you like, but he's always been a PG.

Hill was just the price to pay to get Kawhi. In hindsight, I think it was well worth it. It's easy to say "why don't the Spurs pull a Dubs and build a Superteam?", but the Dubs sucked for many years. Quite a bit of their talent came from draft picks that pan out (Curry #7, Klay #11, Barnes #7, etc). It's hard to be successful AND rebuild at the same time, especially for a small market team. Actually, the fact that we have that kind of successful culture that Tim, Manu, Pop, etc put together was a draw for some FAs to come sign for us (Finley, LMA to an extent, etc).

Maybe we need to suck for a bunch of years now that Timmy retired and Manu is about to, so spoiled fans stop pretending this shit is easy.

[Hoops Czar]

I can't really take you seriously when you try to compare Manu to Bonner when it comes to what both have meant to this franchise, no offense to Matt, tbh... :lol

He ranked #10 on the team in USG % last playoffs, well below even Boris Diaw and West, even Simmons and Kevin Martin, which is exactly what I've been telling you. The Spurs simply have gone away from him in the playoffs, I don't know why would anybody would think it will be different this season. The regular season doesn't matter, it's just burning minutes and trying to figure out who can contribute or not in the big dance.

He benched him because he's not a difference maker anymore. He's going to maybe have a game or two where things go his way and his shot is falling, but it's a game to game thing, at his age, he doesn't have the same tools he had when he was younger. He can't just drive and finish at will anymore. Some games he'll look fine to great, some games he'll look 39. That's why the Spurs have been trying to build up Simms and brought in a backup plan in Kevin Martin last season (and don't forget Andre Miller too, another ball handler). The Spurs already have a starter SG in Danny, who does his job and fits well in what the starting lineup is trying to do. So yeah, the Spurs did try to bring in a plan B (and arguably a plan C), within the money they have. They're looking to replace a backup SG, not a starting player.

Right you are niglet. :lol However, we're not talking about past accomplishments, we're talking about professionalism and unselfishness unless you're gonna move the goalposts again. :lol Is Matt Bonner selfish and unprofessional? Can't he be a $14M mentor too? I could have brought up the other B-word (Bowen) but again, he was done as a player too but, he probably would have been a great mentor/assistant coach for the youngsters. There's no doubt that the Spurs are still relying pretty heavily on Ginobili's production coming off the bench. He doesn't have to put up the gaudy numbers like in the past but, he does have to run the offense because Simmons, KA and Mills can't.

Yes, he was #10 in usg% during last year's playoffs but, he was #3 in usg% during the regular season. In 2014-15, he was 2nd in usg% behind Tony Parker during the regular season and 3rd in usg% in the postseason. It tells me that the Spurs are running him into the ground during the regular season and he has nothing left to give in the postseason. Even at age 39, the Spurs are running him out there as the defacto back up pg when he should playing the shooting guard position. If only Patty could do something that resembles running an NBA offense. :lol

He was absolutely a difference maker during the regular season. The bench was tops in the league and at times, carried the starters. He had the second highest assist % (23.3) and was 1st in steal % (3.0). Manu was the engine that ignited the second unit. He was playing lights out before his testicular injury and played well once he returned. I'm not sure why you brought up Danny Green but, the Spurs aren't trying to replace a prototypical sg, they're trying to replace a ball handler that can actually run the offense. Those types of players don't just fall from the sky. The guys you mentioned (Simmons, KA, Kevin Martin) weren't/aren't adept at running the offense and Andre Miller was older than Ginobili. If you could morph Jonathan Simmons and Kyle Anderson into one player, you might get something that resembles a poor man's Ginobili.




All I'm saying is Patty always played PG, the claim that the Spurs "tried to make Patty a PG" is simply bogus. He's always been a PG. Maybe not in the mold or with the abilities you like, but he's always been a PG.

I don't want to get caught up in semantic. The listing is meaningless when you can't do the one thing required of all point guards which is direct the team's offense.


Maybe we need to suck for a bunch of years now that Timmy retired and Manu is about to, so spoiled fans stop pretending this shit is easy.

Let's see, should we draft Tim Duncan or Keith Van Horn??? Damn, this shit ain't easy :lol

[ElNono]

Right you are niglet. :lol However, we're not talking about past accomplishments, we're talking about professionalism and unselfishness unless you're gonna move the goalposts again. :lol Is Matt Bonner selfish and unprofessional? Can't he be a $14M mentor too? I could have brought up the other B-word (Bowen) but again, he was done as a player too but, he probably would have been a great mentor/assistant coach for the youngsters. There's no doubt that the Spurs are still relying pretty heavily on Ginobili's production coming off the bench. He doesn't have to put up the gaudy numbers like in the past but, he does have to run the offense because Simmons, KA and Mills can't.

Yes, he was #10 in usg% during last year's playoffs but, he was #3 in usg% during the regular season. In 2014-15, he was 2nd in usg% behind Tony Parker during the regular season and 3rd in usg% in the postseason. It tells me that the Spurs are running him into the ground during the regular season and he has nothing left to give in the postseason. Even at age 39, the Spurs are running him out there as the defacto back up pg when he should playing the shooting guard position. If only Patty could do something that resembles running an NBA offense. :lol

He was absolutely a difference maker during the regular season. The bench was tops in the league and at times, carried the starters. He had the second highest assist % (23.3) and was 1st in steal % (3.0). Manu was the engine that ignited the second unit. He was playing lights out before his testicular injury and played well once he returned. I'm not sure why you brought up Danny Green but, the Spurs aren't trying to replace a prototypical sg, they're trying to replace a ball handler that can actually run the offense. Those types of players don't just fall from the sky. The guys you mentioned (Simmons, KA, Kevin Martin) weren't/aren't adept at running the offense and Andre Miller was older than Ginobili. If you could morph Jonathan Simmons and Kyle Anderson into one player, you might get something that resembles a poor man's Ginobili.

There was no big 4 with Matt Bonner, come on son. :lol Matty was great in that he didn't play and he shut the fuck up. I wouldn't put it past Pop to retire his jersey, tbh, but you know what I'm talking about.

If Manu has a miraculous rejuvenation playoff run like 2014, you take it, but you can't realistically bet your season on that. The regular season is fine and all to teach the kids and try to build a unit together, but come playoff time, if you're relying on a 39 year old to play 25 mpg, and give you 10/5/5 on a nightly basis you're deluding yourself, IMO. Simms gonna get his shot, Kyle gonna get his shot, and maybe there will be a trade in the meantime. And the league was shit overall last season... this season isn't a whole lot different. You gotta take the regular season with a giant grain of salt.

The ballhandler thing is overrated anyways, we're talking running a pick and roll here, a highly choreographed play there. It's more practice than anything, that's what the regular season is for.
I wouldn't want Manu to go ISO on anything at this point, even end of quarters. I want Simms and Kyle to pick up the slack, realistically, that's the Spurs best option right if they want to get far at this point, tbh....
What Pop really wants is a guy (like Beli did for us in '14) that played well off the ball and gave us some consistent scoring. He was a treat if left open, teams respected him, whether he sucked on D or not. Simms can be that guy, so can Kyle, I think. It's just disheartening they're nowhere near there yet.


I don't want to get caught up in semantic. The listing is meaningless when you can't do the one thing required of all point guards which is direct the team's offense.

Tony is no floor general either if we're going to go that route. I mean, Tony is primarily a scorer. Pop always liked guys like that, tbh... he's just a seasoned guy now, he knows how to pick his spots.


Let's see, should we draft Tim Duncan or Keith Van Horn??? Damn, this shit ain't easy :lol

You might want to ask Portland about det one... :lol

[skulls138]

Maybe we need to suck for a bunch of years now that Timmy retired and Manu is about to, so spoiled fans stop pretending this shit is easy.The posts will be exactly the same, just different players. People just love to hate, its like crack.

[SAGirl]

There was no big 4 with Matt Bonner, come on son. :lol Matty was great in that he didn't play and he shut the fuck up. I wouldn't put it past Pop to retire his jersey, tbh, but you know what I'm talking about.

If Manu has a miraculous rejuvenation playoff run like 2014, you take it, but you can't realistically bet your season on that. The regular season is fine and all to teach the kids and try to build a unit together, but come playoff time, if you're relying on a 39 year old to play 25 mpg, and give you 10/5/5 on a nightly basis you're deluding yourself, IMO. Simms gonna get his shot, Kyle gonna get his shot, and maybe there will be a trade in the meantime. And the league was shit overall last season... this season isn't a whole lot different. You gotta take the regular season with a giant grain of salt.

You have to tell Pop that. Sometimes I don't think Pop has a grasp for his HoF vets limitations. I will say this, I think Pop has built up a contigency. At least I suspect that is what that is and we shall see in the playoffs if I was right on that suspicion or not. I think he intends to bolster the bench with Kawhi when the time comes in the playoffs that he needs to have a starter play with the bench bc they are struggling. I suspect (and hope) that he won't do what he did in the Thunder series and leave them without a dominant player to bail out situations if they need it. Not that Kawhi will come off the bench but his minutes will be adjusted and rotated so that he helps the bench out if they need it.


The ballhandler thing is overrated anyways, we're talking running a pick and roll here, a highly choreographed play there. It's more practice than anything, that's what the regular season is for. I wouldn't want Manu to go ISO on anything at this point, even end of quarters. I want Simms and Kyle to pick up the slack, realistically, that's the Spurs best option right if they want to get far at this point, tbh....
What Pop really wants is a guy (like Beli did for us in '14) that played well off the ball and gave us some consistent scoring. He was a treat if left open, teams respected him, whether he sucked on D or not. Simms can be that guy, so can Kyle, I think. It's just disheartening they're nowhere near there yet.

I have seen Pop training Patty. I think he's the successor to Manu as a bench leader (thus why I see some priority in re-signing him, but that is another thread). Pop has started to give PnR opportunities to Simmons too, and Kyle to a much lesser degree (he has played a lot less with the bench truth be told). Simms has made some great reads in the PnR, the pass to a cutting Kyle I saw in a highlight video was superb and showed great court awareness and vision. He's just not that consistent with that stuff, specially on the PnR reads... but I have seen him improve overall. Kyle has started to play off the ball better (the Pistons game) and he's active, he sets screens or cuts, he's been moving more aggressively, with purpose. That sequence with Simmons involved good timing on that cut by Kyle, and great vision by Simms. Things like that are encouraging.

Ppl are nitpicky here, I think Mills is a fine backup PG, great even.

It looks to me like the guy with the Marco Belinelli sized balls is Bertans, but to alleviate Manu's pressure in the regular season is going to require a group effort, which is fine since several guys need to grow up... even in roles in Patty's case.

It's just going to be up and down with them at times. I agree with you, I think Pop needs to phase Manu out gradually, no B2B, if they don't need the 20 minutes and can spare him for 5 minutes do that. The point differential doesn't matter as much as developing the bench matters right now. Pop just didn't have much trust in all these guys to start and has been pushing them game by game and making adjustments. It's a process. I think when they start rolling, Pop will be able to afford to rest Manu more (at least I am hoping bc it's still early in the season that is the case).

[SAGirl]

The posts will be exactly the same, just different players. People just love to hate, its like crack.
Absolutely the truth.

[ElNono]

You have to tell Pop that. Sometimes I don't think Pop has a grasp for his HoF vets limitations. I will say this, I think Pop has built up a contigency. At least I suspect that is what that is and we shall see in the playoffs if I was right on that suspicion or not. I think he intends to bolster the bench with Kawhi when the time comes in the playoffs that he needs to have a starter play with the bench bc they are struggling. I suspect (and hope) that he won't do what he did in the Thunder series and leave them without a dominant player to bail out situations if they need it. Not that Kawhi will come off the bench but his minutes will be adjusted and rotated so that he helps the bench out if they need it.

Pop has to balance the "we need to win a bunch of games" vs playing inconsistent guys. But he has played them. They've just been inconsistent, and that's not due to lack of role or minutes. Simms tore it up in two games, and sleepwalked through the rest. Kyle... well, not going to add much more than what's been said already. But, you know, can one of these guys give me, night in and night out, 10pts in 20 mins? 5 boards? 4 assists? I think that's what Pop is looking for, steady production. Doesn't have to be stellar, MVP-caliber every night, but steady stuff. Hasn't happened yet, but there's still quite a bit of season to go.

[SAGirl]

Pop has to balance the "we need to win a bunch of games" vs playing inconsistent guys. But he has played them. They've just been inconsistent, and that's not due to lack of role or minutes. Simms tore it up in two games, and sleepwalked through the rest. Kyle... well, not going to add much more than what's been said already. But, you know, can one of these guys give me, night in and night out, 10pts in 20 mins? 5 boards? 4 assists? I think that's what Pop is looking for, steady production. Doesn't have to be stellar, MVP-caliber every night, but steady stuff. Hasn't happened yet, but there's still quite a bit of season to go.
No, not yet. That is why you have veterans. I guess once guys reach a certain level you can ask for consistency... developing roleplayers and young guys are going to struggle at times. Just as a point of comparison it took Kawhi a long time to become a consistent scorer, developing something new each season and the system had to change and be reshaped to suit his talent. He always brought other things, his rebounding, defense, shooting, etc... but consistent double digit scoring required the marriage of skillset and system tailored to him.

For the bench, you can ask Lee to be consistent since his skillset suits the bench very well, rolling to the basket and he's a veteran, he knows his game and his strengths... and of Mills, who is a veteran shooter adding playmaking to his skillset, you can ask for consistency. Changes in lineups affect chemistry a lot, guys in and out of the rotation find it very difficult to attain a rhythm and chemistry with others. Matt Bonner notwithstanding, Matt did spend a lot of years with this team. Guys at the end of the bench are not Matt Bonner, they are still developing themselves and don't have the chemistry built up for years or know the system that well.

Then you have to look at guys current level of development. I think Dedmon has to bring his defensive hustle, rebounds etc on a nightly basis and he was doing that... but he is going to be up and down offensively and we already know he struggles finishing at the rim at times... Simmons I guess you can ask for consistency with energy plays in transition and pushing the pace, he does that nightly, but scoring off the ball is tricky for him bc he's not a sniper, and he's much better with the ball than without it bc of it. He does set screens for shooters and cuts... but he's not going to be scoring in a consistent fashion like that. I hope he keeps progressing. I haven't watched his last few games so I will withhold anything further about him as I may be way off base. His original task was just being solid, once he reaches a level that Pop is comfortable with, I think being consistent is the next step. He's not there yet. Pop gave an early season interview where he said Simmons is still a work in progress... so there you have it. I am sure he's trying to be consistent but it's a struggle right now.

Bertans one can expect to not pass up shots and hit them at a good enough rate. That is his skillset, but the rest of his game at this level is probably a work in progress as well.

For the bench, they don't have much of an identity bc of so much roster turnover, and you can only ask consistency and continuity of your vets. Then you add the layer of guys just needing to have chemistry to time their cuts, their screens, etc... Thus I understand Pop going to Manu to start the season and I understand the vital role Lee has played as well.

Kyle has 100 threads about him and I truly don't want to make this about him at all. He doesn't have a set role and it's impossible to ask for consistency from someone who is still struggling with his own game as well. Criticism is warranted as he hasn't been playing that well, but it is early and he really has played little with the bench.

Everyone else is too raw, young, rookie, still developing, maybe not that young but new to the league nevertheless (Lapro) with rough areas in their games that they need to smooth over (Murray) and will struggle just smoothing them over.

I think with time they will collectively be better. The veterans are likely to still carry the biggest burden unless someone grows up through the season.. but that is just it: "through the season"...

[Hoops Czar]

We should put a bow on this and agree to disagree which is fine by me. There be a game tonight. :lol However, I want to point out just a couple things.



If Manu has a miraculous rejuvenation playoff run like 2014, you take it, but you can't realistically bet your season on that. The regular season is fine and all to teach the kids and try to build a unit together, but come playoff time, if you're relying on a 39 year old to play 25 mpg, and give you 10/5/5 on a nightly basis you're deluding yourself, IMO. Simms gonna get his shot, Kyle gonna get his shot, and maybe there will be a trade in the meantime. And the league was shit overall last season... this season isn't a whole lot different. You gotta take the regular season with a giant grain of salt.



Pop has to balance the "we need to win a bunch of games" vs playing inconsistent guys. But he has played them. They've just been inconsistent, and that's not due to lack of role or minutes. Simms tore it up in two games, and sleepwalked through the rest. Kyle... well, not going to add much more than what's been said already. But, you know, can one of these guys give me, night in and night out, 10pts in 20 mins? 5 boards? 4 assists? I think that's what Pop is looking for, steady production. Doesn't have to be stellar, MVP-caliber every night, but steady stuff. Hasn't happened yet, but there's still quite a bit of season to go.

For these reasons alone, the Spurs had to pay $14M to bring back Ginobili for another season. Neither Simmons or Anderson have proven anything at the NBA level so why would the Spurs with championship aspiration, put their title hopes in the hands of two guys that have struggled mightily beyond D-league competition, figuratively speaking of course? I'm not suggesting that a championship resolve will be determined by a couple of unproven bench commodities but, depth is important and neither of them to this point can bring to the table what Manu potentially can on a nightly basis. Fear of the unknown and lack of production from Ginobili's understudies is why the Spurs were almost forced to keep him around for another year.

Ginobili's #'s have dropped precipitously from last year's and I can't help but think it probably has a lot to do with playing international basketball over the summer. Not having the Summer off to recover from last season is the biggest reason Ginobili's overall production has taken such a steep dive. And don't think the bench isn't feeling it. The bench depth hasn't been this poor since the 2011 season. There's some serious potential coming off the bench with players like Bertrans, Dedmon, Simmons and sorry ElNono, I just can't say his name :lol but like you said, consistency is still an issue. For me, the playoffs are more important than the regular season so I wouldn't play Ginobili more than two days a week or give him a couple of weeks off to rest here and there to keep his body as fresh as possible for the postseason.


Tony is no floor general either if we're going to go that route. I mean, Tony is primarily a scorer. Pop always liked guys like that, tbh... he's just a seasoned guy now, he knows how to pick his spots.


You can be both a floor general and a 'shoot first' point guard. Pre-2014 Parker was very adept at getting into the paint and causing defenses to collapse. He could knife through double teams with his speed and quickness and finish at the basket with ease. Even when he wasn't making his shot, he had the ability to pass out of the collapsing defenses to find the open shooters. He was a perennial top 5 paint scorer in the league. Opoonents actually set up their defenses to to try to stop/slow Tony down. Patty Mills doesn't demand that kind of attention and I don't see him as a floor general. Patty Mills is primarily a perimeter jump shooter/3-point assassin. When he's not hitting his shot though, he's a liability on the court. Oh yeah, occasionally he'll eye a sleeping defender and cut to the basket for a lay up but that's not his game. I'm not saying he can't run the point in a pinch but, for an entire season and beyond, the Spurs are going to end up paying for it. Yeah, maybe I'm selling him short but up until this point, he hasn't done anything to prove me wrong. Hey, but the good new is I don't delete my posts so feel free to bump this thread when Mills turns into CP3 2.0. :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

Someone make a game thread before you know who, makes one....

[ElNono]

We should put a bow on this and agree to disagree which is fine by me. There be a game tonight. :lol However, I want to point out just a couple things.

That's fine. I'll just add a few things, feel free to respond or not...


For these reasons alone, the Spurs had to pay $14M to bring back Ginobili for another season. Neither Simmons or Anderson have proven anything at the NBA level so why would the Spurs with championship aspiration, put their title hopes in the hands of two guys that have struggled mightily beyond D-league competition, figuratively speaking of course? I'm not suggesting that a championship resolve will be determined by a couple of unproven bench commodities but, depth is important and neither of them to this point can bring to the table what Manu potentially can on a nightly basis. Fear of the unknown and lack of production from Ginobili's understudies is why the Spurs were almost forced to keep him around for another year.

Ginobili's #'s have dropped precipitously from last year's and I can't help but think it probably has a lot to do with playing international basketball over the summer. Not having the Summer off to recover from last season is the biggest reason Ginobili's overall production has taken such a steep dive. And don't think the bench isn't feeling it. The bench depth hasn't been this poor since the 2011 season. There's some serious potential coming off the bench with players like Bertrans, Dedmon, Simmons and sorry ElNono, I just can't say his name :lol but like you said, consistency is still an issue. For me, the playoffs are more important than the regular season so I wouldn't play Ginobili more than two days a week or give him a couple of weeks off to rest here and there to keep his body as fresh as possible for the postseason.

Those reasons are hindsight now, but the only thing the Spurs could've brought in was a $5m player if they decided not to bring Manu back (or Manu retired). That was the value of his cap hold, and what could've potentially been cleared up in capspace to sign another guy. It's not a lot of money and not very good talent is or was available for that kind of money, as Chinook and GSH already pointed out.

Realistically, if Manu retired, that's who we would be going with (Simms/Kyle). That was the idea anyways, IMO. The Spurs didn't really have big contracts to make trades work either. Danny and Patty are on very reasonable deals, the bulk of the rest of the money is going to LMA, Kawhi and Pau.


You can be both a floor general and a 'shoot first' point guard. Pre-2014 Parker was very adept at getting into the paint and causing defenses to collapse. He could knife through double teams with his speed and quickness and finish at the basket with ease. Even when he wasn't making his shot, he had the ability to pass out of the collapsing defenses to find the open shooters. He was a perennial top 5 paint scorer in the league. Opoonents actually set up their defenses to to try to stop/slow Tony down. Patty Mills doesn't demand that kind of attention and I don't see him as a floor general. Patty Mills is primarily a perimeter jump shooter/3-point assassin. When he's not hitting his shot though, he's a liability on the court. Oh yeah, occasionally he'll eye a sleeping defender and cut to the basket for a lay up but that's not his game. I'm not saying he can't run the point in a pinch but, for an entire season and beyond, the Spurs are going to end up paying for it. Yeah, maybe I'm selling him short but up until this point, he hasn't done anything to prove me wrong. Hey, but the good new is I don't delete my posts so feel free to bump this thread when Mills turns into CP3 2.0. :lol

The lack of penetration is something we definitely need, but you don't need to be a floor general for that. I think Simms is a guy that could do that if his handles improve somewhat. But the Spurs might just have to look somewhere else.
It really all depends on how they want to run the offense. If we're going to primarily stick with a starting lineup that does ISO over and over again, it might just not matter.