Why Trump's Education Pick Scares Unions/US Students Slip Further Behind in Math/Sci

[rmt]

Why Trump's Education Pick Scares Unions

http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-trumps-education-pick-scares-unions-1480464943

As an aside, my youngest has to take the End-of-Course Algebra 1 and Geometry tests (EOC Algebra 1 is a graduation requirement) and I took the online Alg 1 practice test just for the fun of it. To my surprise, I could only do some of these problems - they were termed/phrased in such a way as to be unrecognizable as Algebra. I don't know if this is a result of Common Core, but it's nothing like traditional algebra. I used a highly regarded Dolciani Algebra text from the 80s (for all 3 kids) - which was the basis for dd who's gone thru Linear Algebra successfully.

Far East Strengthens Grip on Math, Science Rankings, US Students Slip Further Behind

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2016/11/29/far-east-strengthens-grip-on-math-science-rankings-u-s-students-slip-further-behind/#17d1145c3719

Yah, Singapore Math (my favorite curriculum).

[boutons_deux]

Busting unions is, has been a key piece of the VRWC War on Employees, and a major reason since St Ronnie took office that real household income has stagnated while 1% incomes have skyrocketed

Busted unions is why and how BigCorp was able to kill Ms of good paying jobs by moving the business to shitty wage countries.

Non-stop trashing of teachers as failures, cutting their compensation, etc, etc, make teacher salaries uncompetitive with the screwed-wage private sector.

"If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys"

Teacher churn due to low wages, LONG uncompensated hours, constant political intervention in teaching, continuously underfunded, overcrowded, it all takes it toll, and none of it is fucking accidental or necessary. It's a strategy.

Betsy D is the perfect VRWC nuclear hit. Has been pushing hard for years to redistribute taxpayers $Ts from public schools to private schools, which includes her Christian Madrassas, further violating the separation clause to promote Christianity as THE religion of the USA.

What the VRWC has been doing, is continuing to do is standard strategy: fuck up a govt function, then privatize it.

DeVos' for-profit BigCorp charter schools have a proven records as no better than public schools and often worse, much worse. And of course the teachers are shitty because they get paid less, are not unionized.

[Clipper Nation]

Teachers' unions are one of the biggest problems with public education and one of the biggest reasons we lag behind other countries. Any education pick that scares those corrupt scumbags is a great pick for anyone who wants a more educated America.

When the unions stop making it difficult to fire bad teachers, using LIFO provisions to stifle competition from new teachers, and making ridiculous contract demands (for example, teachers in Buffalo get unlimited plastic surgery on their school system's dime as part of their CBA) while the schools they teach at suffer from lack of funding, they don't get to point the finger anywhere else for their failure.

[boutons_deux]

For-profit charter schools are not unionized, compensation is lower, and produce equal or worse educational outcomes.

So what else could be the problem(s) if unions aren't really the problem?

[CosmicCowboy]

Gor-profit charter schools are not unionized, compensation is lower, and produce equal or worse educational outcomes.

So what else could be the problem(s) if unions aren't really the problem?








Students lack of cultural desire to learn?

[Clipper Nation]

The pay gap between public schools and charter schools on average has less to do with unions and more to do with the fact that charter schools tend to hire younger and less experienced teachers. And even then, there are many charter schools that pay a lot better than public schools.

Also, over 12% of charter schools in America are unionized as of 2010 (the most recent stats I could find), including all charter schools in Iowa, Hawaii, Maryland, Alaska and Virginia.

[boutons_deux]

younger and less experienced teachers.

aka CHEAPER

for-profit charter schools is what Betsy DeVos, and capitalists, have been and will be pushing for. The objective is profit, not education.

For-profit charter schools with their low-ball teachers are unionized?

[Clipper Nation]

Yes, cheaper, because they aren't as experienced yet. And they're more available, because unions make it hard for new teachers to get their foot in the door and then use LIFO provisions to throw them under the bus at the first opportunity when they do. The bottom line is, the only way for teachers to get experience in teaching is to actually teach. It's absurd to begrudge charter schools for giving them the opportunity to do that.

I'd love to see the libs explain how the Netherlands has one of the best educational systems in the world, tbh. They have had a voucher system in place for a century. Two-thirds of their schools are independent. According to the anti-school-choice crowd, this should be a recipe for failure. Instead, it's ranked 9th in the world by PISA. Funny how that works.

[RandomGuy]

Yes, cheaper, because they aren't as experienced yet. And they're more available, because unions make it hard for new teachers to get their foot in the door and then use LIFO provisions to throw them under the bus at the first opportunity when they do. The bottom line is, the only way for teachers to get experience in teaching is to actually teach. It's absurd to begrudge charter schools for giving them the opportunity to do that.

I'd love to see the libs explain how the Netherlands has one of the best educational systems in the world, tbh. They have had a voucher system in place for a century. Two-thirds of their schools are independent. According to the anti-school-choice crowd, this should be a recipe for failure. Instead, it's ranked 9th in the world by PISA. Funny how that works.

Teachers are paid more than in the US. About 20% more.
https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/teacher-blog/2014/sep/05/how-the-job-of-a-teacher-compares-around-the-world


In the Netherlands, educators decide what happens in their classrooms—not bureaucrats.
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/a-country-where-teachers-have-a-voice/384538/

That last bit is something my wife (high school science) can readily attest to.


https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/teacher-blog/2014/sep/05/how-the-job-of-a-teacher-compares-around-the-world


This lib would explain it this way:

You are sadly cherry picking data (looks only at the voucher issue, and doesn't hint that anything else might be working)and horribly oversimplifying a complex problem. Your post therefore demonstrates a decided lack of critical thinking, and intellectual honesty, and is emblematic of a failure of the educational system to teach you those skills.

[pgardn]

US students do not perform worse in Science and Math, that's a crock. When you take students in Ap classes and compare them to college bound students in other countries they perform just as well if not better. The students that have taken their HS science courses in other countries have ALREADY been culled, they are already top students because if you are not a top student, you don't take the comparison tests.

How many times does this need to be said. We try to educate ALL students until 15 or 16 yo, other countries don't. The US is THE WORLD LEADER in almost all science. You wanna ruin this, cut public education. Especially in wealthier areas that have the best public education in the world. Where are all the best innovations in Technology and Science?

In the Us.

Is good science and math education availabe to all students in the US, No.

[pgardn]

Why Trump's Education Pick Scares Unions

http://www.wsj.com/articles/why-trumps-education-pick-scares-unions-1480464943

As an aside, my youngest has to take the End-of-Course Algebra 1 and Geometry tests (EOC Algebra 1 is a graduation requirement) and I took the online Alg 1 practice test just for the fun of it. To my surprise, I could only do some of these problems - they were termed/phrased in such a way as to be unrecognizable as Algebra. I don't know if this is a result of Common Core, but it's nothing like traditional algebra. I used a highly regarded Dolciani Algebra text from the 80s (for all 3 kids) - which was the basis for dd who's gone thru Linear Algebra successfully.

Far East Strengthens Grip on Math, Science Rankings, US Students Slip Further Behind

http://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmorrison/2016/11/29/far-east-strengthens-grip-on-math-science-rankings-u-s-students-slip-further-behind/#17d1145c3719

Yah, Singapore Math (my favorite curriculum).

Algebra is extraordinary useful in basic physics. Most real world problems that require algebra are written in English, not as math, because this is how algebra is really used. Fundamentals using math and then
presentation with real problems is the real way to go.

Imo opinion calculus should firsts be presented after a student has taken physics, the the fundamentals of calculus are made clear. Finding slopes and areas under curves are fundamental in calculus, and are better understood starting with physics questions. Calculus was invented to solve related rate problems...PHYSICS!

[Clipper Nation]

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/01/a-country-where-teachers-have-a-voice/384538/

That last bit is something my wife (high school science) can readily attest to.
I agree that teachers should have more of a say in the classroom than bureaucrats, but the left shouts down any attempt to solve this problem - whether it's by scrapping Common Core or making it easier for parents to take advantage of alternatives to public schools.

I guess it's more important to leftists that teacher's unions keep all their power and generations of American children keep being taught the doctrine of Big Government in the classroom than it is to actually fix our education system.

[Nbadan]

You are sadly cherry picking data (looks only at the voucher issue, and doesn't hint that anything else might be working)and horribly oversimplifying a complex problem. Your post therefore demonstrates a decided lack of critical thinking, and intellectual honesty, and is emblematic of a failure of the educational system to teach you those skills.

:lol True dat...

[Nbadan]

I agree that teachers should have more of a say in the classroom than bureaucrats, but the left shouts down any attempt to solve this problem - whether it's by scrapping Common Core or making it easier for parents to take advantage of alternatives to public schools.

So.....what exact issues do you have with common core?

[Clipper Nation]

So.....what exact issues do you have with common core?

First of all, very few teachers or administrators were in the room when the Common Core standards were being written. They were put together by a panel of ivory-tower academics and testing company employees that was assembled by a consulting firm. The only real teacher involvement came at the very end when they asked a few K-12 teachers which minor tweaks they should make. Such a process was always woefully unequipped to produce a set of standards that worked adequately for teachers, parents and students.

Common Core has only increased achievement gaps, as seen in states like Illinois, Kentucky and California:

http://hechingerreport.org/common-core-tests-will-widen-achievement-gap-at-first/

http://hechingerreport.org/five-years-adopting-common-core-kentuckys-black-white-achievement-gap-widening/

https://www.edsurge.com/news/2015-09-09-california-s-common-core-test-results-reveal-big-achievement-gaps

Common Core's approach to math in particular is a massive joke, to the point where it's significantly hurting high school seniors' math scores:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/373840/ten-dumbest-common-core-problems-alec-torres

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/us/math-test-scores-decline-high-school-seniors.html?_r=1

Billions of dollars have been pumped into online standardized tests that don't work and standards that don't help students with learning disabilities, ESL students or finanically disadvantaged students:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/us/math-test-scores-decline-high-school-seniors.html?_r=1

Overall, Common Core is the biggest educational disaster since New Math.

[baseline bum]

Imo opinion calculus should firsts be presented after a student has taken physics, the the fundamentals of calculus are made clear. Finding slopes and areas under curves are fundamental in calculus, and are better understood starting with physics questions. Calculus was invented to solve related rate problems...PHYSICS!

I gotta completely disagree. I don't think mechanics nor especially E&M is at all intelligible without knowing at least a good sampling of calculus. Differential equations are the natural language of classical physics. You can't intelligently talk about classical physics without knowing about differentials, volume elements, instantaneous rates of change, and so on. Physics made no sense to me when I took it in high school but in college after learning some calc everything started to fit together. Physics being so dependent on math is the reason why you have to take mechanics again as an upperclassman, and same with E&M if you're a physics student. Maybe the truly great geniuses like Faraday can grasp physics without knowing calc, but for mere mortals it's just confusing when you're not able to speak the language.

[boutons_deux]

Overall, Common Core is the biggest educational disaster since New Math.

You Lie. Even fucking SC easily adopted CC because it was already doing nearly all of it on their own.

CC has higher standards, so students score worse, but are about as stupid or smart as before CC.

CC sets standards only.

[rmt]

US students do not perform worse in Science and Math, that's a crock. When you take students in Ap classes and compare them to college bound students in other countries they perform just as well if not better. The students that have taken their HS science courses in other countries have ALREADY been culled, they are already top students because if you are not a top student, you don't take the comparison tests.

How many times does this need to be said. We try to educate ALL students until 15 or 16 yo, other countries don't. The US is THE WORLD LEADER in almost all science. You wanna ruin this, cut public education. Especially in wealthier areas that have the best public education in the world. Where are all the best innovations in Technology and Science?

In the Us.

Is good science and math education availabe to all students in the US, No.

The above mentioned tests (TIMSS) is a 20 year study involving 4th and 8th graders - not high schoolers taking AP classes. I'm assuming that they pick them at random (as opposed to sending their best and brightest - this isn't Math Olympiad). You can see that the gap between the East Asian kids and the next highest country in 4th grade was 23 in 2015 unchanged from 2011. However, the gap between the East Asian kids and the next highest country in 8th grade is 48 in 2015 increasing from 31 in 2011. My take from this is that the gap between East Asian kids and the rest INCREASES as the grades get higher.

http://timss2015.org/timss-2015/mathematics/student-achievement/

http://timss2015.org/timss-2015/mathematics/student-achievement/ (click on Grade 8)

I think that (on a whole) US kids are okay in the younger grades (addition/subtraction/multiplication/division) but somewhere around 3-5th grades when they're supposed to be learning fractions, decimals, and percentages - things get a bit fuzzy and because there are sometimes gaps or concepts aren't mastered, the kids get more and more confused as the grades get higher. Sorry, but I'd place my bet on the average East Asian kid than an average American every day and twice on Sunday when it comes to math - they know their stuff.

[rmt]

US students do not perform worse in Science and Math, that's a crock. When you take students in Ap classes and compare them to college bound students in other countries they perform just as well if not better. The students that have taken their HS science courses in other countries have ALREADY been culled, they are already top students because if you are not a top student, you don't take the comparison tests.

How many times does this need to be said. We try to educate ALL students until 15 or 16 yo, other countries don't. The US is THE WORLD LEADER in almost all science. You wanna ruin this, cut public education. Especially in wealthier areas that have the best public education in the world. Where are all the best innovations in Technology and Science?

In the Us.

Is good science and math education availabe to all students in the US, No.

pgardn, please take a look at TIMSS Advanced 2015:

http://timss2015.org/advanced/

and Physics:

http://timss2015.org/advanced/timss-advanced-2015/physics/student-achievement/

How do you explain these? Do you think that it's possible that a lot of foreign students are coming to the US (because this is where the money and research is) and spearheading that world leadership in science. As an aside, my dd's fellow Google intern was Indian as was most of the team. And this was not your normal programming team - it was a Research team full of Phds. Dd was heartily tired of eating at the cafe that served Indian food and trying to make small talk about cricket, etc :-)

[pgardn]

The above mentioned tests (TIMSS) is a 20 year study involving 4th and 8th graders - not high schoolers taking AP classes. I'm assuming that they pick them at random (as opposed to sending their best and brightest - this isn't Math Olympiad). You can see that the gap between the East Asian kids and the next highest country in 4th grade was 23 in 2015 unchanged from 2011. However, the gap between the East Asian kids and the next highest country in 8th grade is 48 in 2015 increasing from 31 in 2011. My take from this is that the gap between East Asian kids and the rest INCREASES as the grades get higher.

http://timss2015.org/timss-2015/mathematics/student-achievement/

http://timss2015.org/timss-2015/mathematics/student-achievement/ (click on Grade 8)

I think that (on a whole) US kids are okay in the younger grades (addition/subtraction/multiplication/division) but somewhere around 3-5th grades when they're supposed to be learning fractions, decimals, and percentages - things get a bit fuzzy and because there are sometimes gaps or concepts aren't mastered, the kids get more and more confused as the grades get higher. Sorry, but I'd place my bet on the average East Asian kid than an average American every day and twice on Sunday when it comes to math - they know their stuff.

The average East Asian kid is not doing math. They are working. That's a joke. The average East Asian kid in school maybe. The point is the US attempts to educate ALL kids. But it is obviously a very uneven field.

[Wild Cobra]

The point is the US attempts to educate ALL kids. But it is obviously a very uneven field.


Then why all the social indoctrination if they are trying to educate?

[pgardn]

Then why all the social indoctrination if they are trying to educate?

What?

[pgardn]

I gotta completely disagree. I don't think mechanics nor especially E&M is at all intelligible without knowing at least a good sampling of calculus. Differential equations are the natural language of classical physics. You can't intelligently talk about classical physics without knowing about differentials, volume elements, instantaneous rates of change, and so on. Physics made no sense to me when I took it in high school but in college after learning some calc everything started to fit together. Physics being so dependent on math is the reason why you have to take mechanics again as an upperclassman, and same with E&M if you're a physics student. Maybe the truly great geniuses like Faraday can grasp physics without knowing calc, but for mere mortals it's just confusing when you're not able to speak the language.

I feel exactly the opposite, especially with mechanics, but possibly not with E&M.

I have tutored some kids of older guys I work with, and when I have shown them how the foundations of physics can be explained so much better using calculus, they start to better understand the airy-fairy calculus that has little to no utility, except for good thought problems. Slopes and areas that have actual PHYSICAL MEANING has been very useful, so I use physics as a starting point when I have been asked to help out. Then they can go wander off into math world after they get an understanding of what they are doing. In fact, I got in trouble with one of the student's teachers when they just starting to learn calculus because I showed him the power rule, and he was supposed to go through the longer method before deferring to the much easier power rule shortcut. I showed him the long way, but he used the power rule to make sure he was correct.

Interestingly though, a lot of the modern physics that is difficult is pursued because the math says this is how it should be given these certain constraints. Experimental physics types then go looking for an experimental set up to try and determine if what the math says should exist really does exist.

[pgardn]

pgardn, please take a look at TIMSS Advanced 2015:

http://timss2015.org/advanced/

and Physics:

http://timss2015.org/advanced/timss-advanced-2015/physics/student-achievement/

How do you explain these? Do you think that it's possible that a lot of foreign students are coming to the US (because this is where the money and research is) and spearheading that world leadership in science. As an aside, my dd's fellow Google intern was Indian as was most of the team. And this was not your normal programming team - it was a Research team full of Phds. Dd was heartily tired of eating at the cafe that served Indian food and trying to make small talk about cricket, etc :-)

Same as post # 20.

You are looking at cherry picking. Most Indians know the only way out is to get educated. I work with these people. We need the best and the brightest to become American citizens.

[rmt]

In places like Hong Kong, Shanghai, South Korea, and Vietnam, fewer than 5 percent of 15-year-old students performed below the basic-proficiency level in reading, mathematics and science. But, in the United States, 12 percent—half a million students—fell below the same level in all three subjects. The performance of the average student in the U.S. falls below the OECD average for all 64 countries in its survey, and far below the average for the major industrial countries. The proportion of our students who score below the OECD basic score is also well above the average for the major industrial countries. Equally troubling, the proportion of our students who score in the upper ranges of the OECD spectrum is also well below the average.

Some argue that the U.S.’s lagging behind has nothing to do with our schools: The U.S. has a much higher proportion of disadvantaged poor and minority students than higher-performing countries. But the data show that 37 countries outperform the U.S. in the degree to which socioeconomic status predicts low achievement. Both Vietnam and Latvia have far smaller percentages of low-performing students than the U.S. If it is poverty that accounts for the U.S.’s high proportion of low-performing students, it is hard to explain how these two countries are doing better than the United States. Vietnam’s average income, adjusted for purchasing power, stands at just one-tenth of the U.S. average, Latvia’s at less than one half.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/02/us-asia-education-differences/471564/

[baseline bum]

I feel exactly the opposite, especially with mechanics, but possibly not with E&M.

I have tutored some kids of older guys I work with, and when I have shown them how the foundations of physics can be explained so much better using calculus, they start to better understand the airy-fairy calculus that has little to no utility, except for good thought problems. Slopes and areas that have actual PHYSICAL MEANING has been very useful, so I use physics as a starting point when I have been asked to help out. Then they can go wander off into math world after they get an understanding of what they are doing. In fact, I got in trouble with one of the student's teachers when they just starting to learn calculus because I showed him the power rule, and he was supposed to go through the longer method before deferring to the much easier power rule shortcut. I showed him the long way, but he used the power rule to make sure he was correct.

Interestingly though, a lot of the modern physics that is difficult is pursued because the math says this is how it should be given these certain constraints. Experimental physics types then go looking for an experimental set up to try and determine if what the math says should exist really does exist.

You're making a chicken and egg argument bro, using calc to explain physics to explain calc. I agree with the way physics is mostly taught at the freshman level, where they assume you're taking calc at the same time and spend the first couple of weeks on vectors and kinematics where you don't need to know derivatives in too much depth while you're learning derivatives in the calc class.

[Wild Cobra]

What?

The schools have lowered educational time of the basics, and increased their social engineering in the classrooms.

[Wild Cobra]

You're making a chicken and egg argument bro, using calc to explain physics to explain calc. I agree with the way physics is mostly taught at the freshman level, where they assume you're taking calc at the same time and spend the first couple of weeks on vectors and kinematics where you don't need to know derivatives in too much depth while you're learning derivatives in the calc class.

It starts in the lower grades. K-12 is doing very poorly in the states compared to 50 years ago. We have steadily gotten worse over time in the teaching of math, English, social studies, and other basic knowledge skills. These foundation skills are rather weak in the majority of students entering collage vs. decades back.

[pgardn]

You're making a chicken and egg argument bro, using calc to explain physics to explain calc. I agree with the way physics is mostly taught at the freshman level, where they assume you're taking calc at the same time and spend the first couple of weeks on vectors and kinematics where you don't need to know derivatives in too much depth while you're learning derivatives in the calc class.

Im talking HS kids in AP classes. They are in Calculus and have already taken Algebra based physics. The Calculus textbooks they bring me have some physics problems to help understand calculus.

And no it's not a chicken egg argument. I just want it to start intuitively. Otherwise it's very easy to forget. You have to have some basic model that makes sense. And the fact that more complex physics falls back on math is just the truth. That's the difference between theoretical physicists and experimental physicists. Someone has an idea but has not a clue how to possibly turn it into testable experiment. Sometimes new technologies come out of this. It's quite cool I think.

[pgardn]

In places like Hong Kong, Shanghai, South Korea, and Vietnam, fewer than 5 percent of 15-year-old students performed below the basic-proficiency level in reading, mathematics and science. But, in the United States, 12 percent—half a million students—fell below the same level in all three subjects. The performance of the average student in the U.S. falls below the OECD average for all 64 countries in its survey, and far below the average for the major industrial countries. The proportion of our students who score below the OECD basic score is also well above the average for the major industrial countries. Equally troubling, the proportion of our students who score in the upper ranges of the OECD spectrum is also well below the average.

Some argue that the U.S.’s lagging behind has nothing to do with our schools: The U.S. has a much higher proportion of disadvantaged poor and minority students than higher-performing countries. But the data show that 37 countries outperform the U.S. in the degree to which socioeconomic status predicts low achievement. Both Vietnam and Latvia have far smaller percentages of low-performing students than the U.S. If it is poverty that accounts for the U.S.’s high proportion of low-performing students, it is hard to explain how these two countries are doing better than the United States. Vietnam’s average income, adjusted for purchasing power, stands at just one-tenth of the U.S. average, Latvia’s at less than one half.

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/02/us-asia-education-differences/471564/

You have pointed out an economic problem, not a school problem. The best public HS in the US beat the hell out of Asian countries, especially in science. And there is a very basic reason; we do really good experiments in good HS. Many of the Asian countries keep with the rote stuff and it kills them. That's why they come over here eventually. This is a very common complaint about a fairly ubiquitous Asian education.

And the best public HS go back to economics.

Also don't kid yourself with these stats. If you think Vietnamese children are sitting in nice classroom with a pretty little teacher in front of them all listening intently... Nope. Take a look in the vast rural areas. In HK, it might be doable. Can't say much about S. Korea.

Bash the US, but do it legitimately.

[pgardn]

It starts in the lower grades. K-12 is doing very poorly in the states compared to 50 years ago. We have steadily gotten worse over time in the teaching of math, English, social studies, and other basic knowledge skills. These foundation skills are rather weak in the majority of students entering collage vs. decades back.

Its better than it was for my Dad living in Carrizo Springs, Texas. Much, Much better.

Rural areas and poor urban areas are not good. Wealthier districts, where the parents trust the teachers, are phenomenal. Much better than anything I saw. Education goes through cycles because the politicians foist some ridiculous goals on them. The good school districts don't even listen to the rules. There are some very good school districts csoring average on their crappy state test while excelling on more relevant national and world wide tests.

[Wild Cobra]

Its better than it was for my Dad living in Carrizo Springs, Texas. Much, Much better.

Rural areas and poor urban areas are not good. Wealthier districts, where the parents trust the teachers, are phenomenal. Much better than anything I saw. Education goes through cycles because the politicians foist some ridiculous goals on them. The good school districts don't even listen to the rules. There are some very good school districts csoring average on their crappy state test while excelling on more relevant national and world wide tests.

Cherry pick much?

A city with more than half the population of the entire county of under 10,000...

How much smaller was the population those years back?

You can always find statistical outliers. In general, our education system is really bad compared to 50 years ago.

[pgardn]

Cherry pick much?

A city with more than half the population of the entire county of under 10,000...

How much smaller was the population those years back?

You can always find statistical outliers. In general, our education system is really bad compared to 50 years ago.

That is absolutely false.

Make broad generalizations much without any evidence? Rural areas 50 years ago were vast and notoriously wanting for any decent reacher. And they were a LARGER % of the US population. Education was much more likely to end in grade school 50 years ago.

You are just wrong.

[AaronY]

What?
Republicans think the reason more educated people tend to be liberal is because the schools brainwash them basically.


Couldnt be because Republicans are the only conservative party in the world that denies global warming: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2015/oct/05/the-republican-party-stands-alone-in-climate-denial http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/09/whys-gop-only-science-denying-party-on-earth.html


or that there is a small segment of them in Texas trying to teach kids that the dinosaurs were killed by the great flood. I mean its obviously not that their rejection of huge swatches of science offends more educated people or anything.

[Nbadan]

Couldnt be because Republicans are the only conservative party in the world that denies global warming

TBH many conservatives believe the earth is warming, they just argue that it has more to do with solar and earth cycles than man-made ...

[Blake]

Wikipedia


DeVos grew up in the*Christian Reformed Church in North America.[52]*She has been a member and*elder*of*Mars Hill Bible Church*in Grand Rapids. Former*Fuller Seminarypresident*Richard Mouw, with whom DeVos served on a committee, claims she is influenced by*neo-Calvinist*theologianAbraham Kuyper.[1]

I can't wait to hear her view on creation and evolution

[DMC]

Republicans think the reason more educated people tend to be liberal is because the schools brainwash them basically.

Betting you only have a HS diploma. Your sweeping generalization illustrates it in fact.


Couldnt be because Republicans are the only conservative party in the world that denies global warming: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2015/oct/05/the-republican-party-stands-alone-in-climate-denial http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2015/09/whys-gop-only-science-denying-party-on-earth.html
Yes, it's purely a global warming issue.


or that there is a small segment of them in Texas trying to teach kids that the dinosaurs were killed by the great flood. I mean its obviously not that their rejection of huge swatches of science offends more educated people or anything.
Or the truthers saying the gubmint conspired to blow up the trade center...

idiots.

Wait, that's the libs.

[Quadzilla99]

That is absolutely false.

Make broad generalizations much without any evidence? Rural areas 50 years ago were vast and notoriously wanting for any decent reacher. And they were a LARGER % of the US population. Education was much more likely to end in grade school 50 years ago.

You are just wrong.

Yeah, but the country was so much whiter though then..how could it have been worse in any way

[Spurminator]

Or the truthers saying the gubmint conspired to blow up the trade center...

idiots.

Wait, that's the libs.

I keep seeing people post this lately, as though they've completely forgotten about the Ron Paul Presidential run.

[spurraider21]

TBH many conservatives believe the earth is warming, they just argue that it has more to do with solar and earth cycles than man-made ...there are also conservatives like Jim Inhofe (chairman of senate committee on Environment and Public Works, by the way)...

global warming is fake because look i have a snowball


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E0a_60PMR8

he has also claimed that the bible proves global warming is false because god is looking after us. speaking of which... we go to Representative Shimkus (on the House Committee on Energy and Commerce)

6:22-7:05


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjD0e1d6GgQ&t=410s

(maker of that last video has one of the better channels on youtube, imo... always publishes a fill list of his sources used, usually directly to the original papers)


and just for shits and giggles, this dude, no longer in office as of 2015 (thank god), served on the House Committee on Science and Technology.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBy3MbP4WDo

oddly enough, dude got his degree in chemistry and then got his M.D., meaning he's not scientifically illiterate. he's just willing to be dishonest to reconcile with "muh faith"

[CosmicCowboy]

That is absolutely false.

Make broad generalizations much without any evidence? Rural areas 50 years ago were vast and notoriously wanting for any decent reacher. And they were a LARGER % of the US population. Education was much more likely to end in grade school 50 years ago.

You are just wrong.

Obviously we can't do a side by side comparison, but my Father only went to the 8th grade in a small East Texas rural school in the 1930's. I can honestly say his math, writing, spellling and english skills were vastly superior to most high school graduates today.

[Wild Cobra]

Obviously we can't do a side by side comparison, but my Father only went to the 8th grade in a small East Texas rural school in the 1930's. I can honestly say his math, writing, spellling and english skills were vastly superior to most high school graduates today.
This is so true, but the left simply will not acknowledge facts. They prefer their propaganda.

[pgardn]

Obviously we can't do a side by side comparison, but my Father only went to the 8th grade in a small East Texas rural school in the 1930's. I can honestly say his math, writing, spellling and english skills were vastly superior to most high school graduates today.

Yeah.

And I also hear tales that fathers, of what I believe was your generation, could not even help their kids do homework as they could not understand the "new" math. I have heard this quite a bit. There is no new math in grade school. They were just unable to transfer rote skills.

And I bet your father learned a whole bunch after HS. There are always stars. My father,who lost his father very early, had a Uncle who mentored him in school. This Uncle dropped out in the 3rd grade to work, But he read everything; always toting a library book. Told my father to finish school and go to college, gave him books to read. My father finished 5th at UT law school because of his Uncle, so my father claims. The 5 th in the class is legit. My father's twin brother is a US diplomat (career , not appointed; i.e. he is not a dumbshit that gave to a winning presidential campaign) All from a tiny agricultural town because of a love to learn Uncle.

As a whole, my claim stands I believe. It is also true that today's schools have to teach more, as pure manual labor jobs become less lucrative.

[pgardn]

This is so true, but the left simply will not acknowledge facts. They prefer their propaganda.

And you have no frkn clue what is going on.

When was the last time your were in a actual HS volunteering your time to tutor math because of your great understanding on the assembly line? Do you know any of the teachers.

I am telling you there are some very bright kids in very bad areas in Texas. The US is wasting these brains at our peril. Bad schools are largely in poverty ridden areas. This is not rocket science. If your parents are successful, you will most likely get planted in a good public school. If you take your opportunity seriously (as your parents most likely did) you got a huge head start.

[DMC]

Yeah.

And I also hear tales that fathers, of what I believe was your generation, could not even help their kids do homework as they could not understand the "new" math. I have heard this quite a bit. There is no new math in grade school. They were just unable to transfer rote skills.

And I bet your father learned a whole bunch after HS. There are always stars. My father,who lost his father very early, had a Uncle who mentored him in school. This Uncle dropped out in the 3rd grade to work, But he read everything; always toting a library book. Told my father to finish school and go to college, gave him books to read. My father finished 5th at UT law school because of his Uncle, so my father claims. The 5 th in the class is legit. My father's twin brother is a US diplomat (career , not appointed; i.e. he is not a dumbshit that gave to a winning presidential campaign) All from a tiny agricultural town because of a love to learn Uncle.

As a whole, my claim stands I believe. It is also true that today's schools have to teach more, as pure manual labor jobs become less lucrative.

Mentors are greatly underrated and undervalued. It's not a buddy system. It doesn't take a lifetime of work to change the life of a child just through encouragement or, heaven forbid, example.

[DMC]

And you have no frkn clue what is going on.

When was the last time your were in a actual HS volunteering your time to tutor math because of your great understanding on the assembly line? Do you know any of the teachers.

I am telling you there are some very bright kids in very bad areas in Texas. The US is wasting these brains at our peril. Bad schools are largely in poverty ridden areas. This is not rocket science. If your parents are successful, you will most likely get planted in a good public school. If you take your opportunity seriously (as your parents most likely did) you got a huge head start.

You cannot compare an adult to a HS grad unless you know what the education level was of the adult at the same age.

However it's much easier to survive without knowing much today than it was in the 30's. This is why I say the teat needs to be removed.

[pgardn]

You cannot compare an adult to a HS grad unless you know what the education level was of the adult at the same age.

However it's much easier to survive without knowing much today than it was in the 30's. This is why I say the teat needs to be removed.

The poster said 8 th grade. You think he was a 21 year old 8th grader? Those age groups have not changed that much from today at all with the exception they held kids back,

Like to skew things a bit. It was also much easier to survive in the 1930s then it was the 1860s. Go figure.

[pgardn]

Mentors are greatly underrated and undervalued. It's not a buddy system. It doesn't take a lifetime of work to change the life of a child just through encouragement or, heaven forbid, example.

Ok.

So....

[DMC]

Ok.

So....

So we agree.

[DMC]

The poster said 8 th grade. You think he was a 21 year old 8th grader? Those age groups have not changed that much from today at all with the exception they held kids back,

Like to skew things a bit. It was also much easier to survive in the 1930s then it was the 1860s. Go figure.

Maybe not. The great depression made things difficult on people. 1860's were more of a boon.

[pgardn]

Maybe not. The great depression made things difficult on people. 1860's were more of a boon.

Im gonna venture a guess that the Civil War was not a great deal of fun.

[angrydude]

You have pointed out an economic problem, not a school problem. The best public HS in the US beat the hell out of Asian countries, especially in science. And there is a very basic reason; we do really good experiments in good HS. Many of the Asian countries keep with the rote stuff and it kills them. That's why they come over here eventually. This is a very common complaint about a fairly ubiquitous Asian education.

And the best public HS go back to economics.

Also don't kid yourself with these stats. If you think Vietnamese children are sitting in nice classroom with a pretty little teacher in front of them all listening intently... Nope. Take a look in the vast rural areas. In HK, it might be doable. Can't say much about S. Korea.

Bash the US, but do it legitimately.

Asian schools don't even have air conditioning. They have windows on either side of the room which they open during the summer to let a breeze through