Kawhi's defensive numbers... Skewed a bit? [Archive]

bklynspursfan

12-09-2016, 04:57 PM

Some have claimed Kawhi's defense has taken a major hit due to his DRTG/DBPM, etc...

I agree there has been some slippage, but not nearly what the stats reflect. Matt Moore of CBS sports pointed out what Butler was doing last night, basically leaving Kawhi in no mans land on a couple plays.

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He is basically left away from all the action unable to help, and driving into the lane will usually result in points based off Pau being out there, vs Duncan last year. I'm wondering if other teams use this method as well, I'd be interested to go back and see if other teams/players deployed this strategy. It would make sense as to why there's some droppage in his numbers. I truly think come January, if the defense remains this poor, we'll see Dedmon starting over Pau. That could be the minor tweak needed to get that SL going again.

He's going to explain a bit why Kawhi's numbers say one thing, when his effort/play might show another. I'll update the OP once its up.

YGWHI

12-09-2016, 10:10 PM

He is basically left away from all the action unable to help, and driving into the lane will usually result in points based off Pau being out there, vs Duncan last year. I'm wondering if other teams use this method as well, I'd be interested to go back and see if other teams/players deployed this strategy. It would make sense as to why there's some droppage in his numbers. I truly think come January, if the defense remains this poor, we'll see Dedmon starting over Pau. That could be the minor tweak needed to get that SL going again.

He's going to explain a bit why Kawhi's numbers say one thing, when his effort/play might show another. I'll update the OP once its up.

That's obvious the reason.
807112741362266113

Kawhi defensive stats this season are more related to his teammates' defense than his own defense.
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The defense needs a change...Unlike Pop, everyone realizes it.
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People like to blame our offense for the slow starts but the defense had something to do...A team can 'safety' miss shots if the rival isn't scoring that much.

313

12-09-2016, 10:17 PM

Wing defenders are always going to be limited in their impact. Which is why big man who can play defense have always been much more valuable.

YGWHI

12-09-2016, 10:19 PM

We saw how Kawhi individul defense on his guy is still great. We saw him shutting down Klay, Gay, Wiggins, Butler, this season.

When those guys wanted to attack Kawhi, he contested his shots and they missed a lot.

But if the opposite main scorer is 4-14 but his teammates are scoring on the rest of the Spurs like Wade last game, that's a problem.

That happened this season when opposite teams attack Parker, Gasol, LMA, with Kawhi on the court on the other side...

And sadly, we'll see it again in a playoffs seriees against Clippers, with JJ helping to corner Kawhi, and letting CP3/Blake/Jordan destroying the Spurs in P&Rs.

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YGWHI

12-09-2016, 10:21 PM

Wing defenders are always going to be limited in their impact. Which is why big man who can play defense have always been much more valuable.

I guess in the Finals, getting LeBron parking in the corner and not being dominant on offense to anulate Kawhi is a great thing.

The issue is Irving and Love scoring on Parker, Gasol, LMA...

But a good rim protector can maximize wings defense, instead of that Spurs opted to sign Pau Gasol.

313

12-09-2016, 10:29 PM

I guess in the Finals, getting LeBron parking in the corner and not being dominant on offense to anulate Kawhi is a great thing.

The issue is Irving and Love scoring on Parker, Gasol, LMA...

But a good rim protector can maximize wings defense, instead of that Spurs opted to sign Pau Gasol.Big men need wing defenders(IE Anthony Davis) and wing defenders need big men. But overall a great big man has a bigger defensive impact IMO

As far as the Pau signing, was never a fan. He's been mailing it in on defense for years(~2012), even if he has glimpses where he's ok. If we didn't sign him, and Manu retired I think we might've been able to get Biyombo. No idea how he's doing so far this year, but he was a guy I was hoping PATFO went for.

FkLA

12-09-2016, 10:33 PM

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That just looks like Butler providing the proper spacing. I'm not seeing what's so unusual about that.

spursistan

12-09-2016, 10:46 PM

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That just looks like Butler providing the proper spacing. I'm not seeing what's so unusual about that.

That LMA/Pau combo is such disgrace..fuckin trade these two soft asses..

bklynspursfan

12-09-2016, 10:59 PM

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That just looks like Butler providing the proper spacing. I'm not seeing what's so unusual about that.

Its something that's apparently being done often. There were some examples against Orlando too. The guy Kawhi is guarding keeps him further from the play so he can't be effective.

This particular play you're right, but it's just an example. Butler was pretty much keeping away and letting guys drive in at will .

I honestly do expect Pop to have Dedmon starting sooner than later. But he hurts his case with the fouling, and if he's committing those fouls against 2nd units, he'll for sure struggle against SL's.

bklynspursfan

12-09-2016, 11:01 PM

That's obvious the reason.
807112741362266113

Kawhi defensive stats this season are more related to his teammates' defense than his own defense.
807114644515147776

The defense needs a change...Unlike Pop, everyone realizes it.
807340403829706752

People like to blame our offense for the slow starts but the defense had something to do...A team can 'safety' miss shots if the rival isn't scoring that much.

I knew it was the reason, but folks on here weren't buying into it. I was just glad it was being pointed out now. Context is always important when people start throwing out certain stats.

Like I said tho, I do think Pop will make the necessary adjustment re Pau. It's just going to take a bit more time. Probably another month or so.

Chinook

12-10-2016, 01:31 AM

SpurPadre

12-10-2016, 02:00 AM

Quality thread, OP.

Ice009

12-10-2016, 02:39 AM

Big men need wing defenders(IE Anthony Davis) and wing defenders need big men. But overall a great big man has a bigger defensive impact IMO

As far as the Pau signing, was never a fan. He's been mailing it in on defense for years(~2012), even if he has glimpses where he's ok. If we didn't sign him, and Manu retired I think we might've been able to get Biyombo. No idea how he's doing so far this year, but he was a guy I was hoping PATFO went for.

I actually wanted Biyombo last off-season as a bench big. I mentioned his name, but no-one else here seemed interested based on his play with the Hornets. I thought he's a good athletic shot blocker that can rebound the ball. Would have been really great for last season's team off the bench.

GSH

12-10-2016, 02:40 AM

The SL has given up so many big first quarters this season, it's getting to be routine. Last year's defense was so much better, it was in another class. The only difference in the lineup this year is Pau instead of Tim. Kawhi may or may not be playing as well - same for Aldridge. But there is no doubt that having Tim in the middle as a defensive anchor made everyone else better. With Pau providing so little interior defense, the perimeter defenders have to be perfect. That's going to change the numbers.

A lot of teams look at deflections as part of their evaluation of perimeter defense. It's not the whole story, obviously, but it's part of the picture that we don't usually get to see. I'd like to know how Kawhi's stack up this year, compared to last. I know there are some stat tracking services that track deflections, but I don't know of any that can be accessed for free.

Raven

12-10-2016, 03:18 AM

I actually wanted Biyombo last off-season as a bench big. I mentioned his name, but no-one else here seemed interested based on his play with the Hornets. I thought he's a good athletic shot blocker that can rebound the ball. Would have been really great for last season's team off the bench.

too much of a liability

YGWHI

12-10-2016, 03:20 AM

A lot of teams look at deflections as part of their evaluation of perimeter defense. It's not the whole story, obviously, but it's part of the picture that we don't usually get to see. I'd like to know how Kawhi's stack up this year, compared to last. I know there are some stat tracking services that track deflections, but I don't know of any that can be accessed for free.

If you're talking about this, he's elite this season.

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Raven

12-10-2016, 03:20 AM

wingstop worked best with timmy because they made sure there was only one possible lane to a shot and timmy only had to block that one. our bigs need to develop chemistry on the help side, it's vital. And david lee needs to FO

YGWHI

12-10-2016, 03:23 AM

I knew it was the reason, but folks on here weren't buying into it. I was just glad it was being pointed out now. Context is always important when people start throwing out certain stats.

Like I said tho, I do think Pop will make the necessary adjustment re Pau. It's just going to take a bit more time. Probably another month or so.
:tu

Quality thread, OP.

GSH

12-10-2016, 03:53 AM

If you're talking about this, he's elite this season.

There was a big discussion about it at Sloan a couple of years back. I don't think that NBA.com stat is as good as some others that are being collected, but it still has value I'm sure. Do you have the numbers for the last couple of seasons to compare?

There are some coaches/assistants in the league who swear by deflections as one of the best metrics for individual perimeter defense. You can understand Draymond and CP3 being on that list. Covington is playing on that shitty Sixers team, and gambling a lot on D, but he's still under-rated by most people. He would actually be a good pickup for the Spurs, at the right price. It makes sense that he is high on the deflections list. He's disruptive as hell out on the perimeter. A few years ago, he would probably have gone for cheap, but there are too many people watching stats like deflections and passes-denied now.

YGWHI

12-10-2016, 04:59 AM

There was a big discussion about it at Sloan a couple of years back. I don't think that NBA.com stat is as good as some others that are being collected, but it still has value I'm sure. Do you have the numbers for the last couple of seasons to compare?

No, it'd be nice to have those numbers too.

About stats from other sites, I follow follow NylonCalculus on Twitter and they had these deflection stats on November, Kawhi was 5.2 a bit higher than now, and obviously still elite.

http://cdn.fansided.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/229/files/2016/11/Table1.jpg

bklynspursfan

12-10-2016, 11:25 AM

It's not impossible to explain away his defensive numbers, but it's not easy. Right now, the Spurs defense gets better without him by a good portion. If that holds up for a season, everything else is just an excuse.

But it also shouldn't be immediately attributed to some significant drop off by him on the defensive end either. It's more about the schemes run while he's out there

GSH

12-10-2016, 11:39 AM

No, it'd be nice to have those numbers too.

About stats from other sites, I follow follow NylonCalculus on Twitter and they had these deflection stats on November, Kawhi was 5.2 a bit higher than now, and obviously still elite.

Wow, very nice. Especially good to get it on a /40 basis. Thanks for that. :tu

Not a whole lot of surprises on that list, are there? Except maybe Seth Curry as an undrafted free agent. He's looking better all the time. If he cleans up that 3P stroke, a lot of people are going to be kicking themselves.

SuperCam

12-10-2016, 12:24 PM

So numbers prove that Kiwi was riding Tim's coattails? And kiwistans thinks this argument is in his favor? :lmao

GSH

12-10-2016, 12:43 PM

So numbers prove that Kiwi was riding Tim's coattails? And kiwistans thinks this argument is in his favor? :lmao

Says the guy riding Cam Newton's dick.

bklynspursfan

12-13-2016, 11:34 AM

Some quotes from here.. Mostly stuff we knew already, but sharing anyway/

It hasn't mattered... yet. To beat a dead horse, the Spurs are 10th in defense with the second-best record in the league. They are top-ten in offense as well. Kawhi Leonard, in particular, has been MVP-level good offensively. He's so efficient in every area it's borderline insane. He's an elite player and his control of the game has never been higher. This isn't about whether Leonard is a good defender or not; he clearly, obviously is. It's about the fact that the Spurs have a problem which doesn't matter now but will matter a whole lot when they get into a playoff series vs. the Clippers (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/teams/page/LAC/l-a-clippers-clippers), Rockets (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/teams/page/HOU/houston-rockets) or Warriors, any one of which can sacrifice their small forward's scoring and carve up the rest.

It really is the other guys. The Spurs are 26th in the league in points per possession created by the pick-and-roll ball-handler. Tony Parker is in the 6th (!!!) percentile, Pau Gasol the 30th percentile, LaMarcus Aldridge the 37th percentile. This does not bode well for their future. Those are not players who are going to suddenly grow and develop. They are not going to improve. This is who who they are. They can get better as a unit, certainly, but there were warning signs about these combos going into the year, but we assumed the Spurs would do well enough to figure them out. They've figured out all the combinations around them, which is why they all have better defensive ratings than Leonard and still have, again, the 10th-best defense. But in a playoff environment? This is worrisome.

There are good defensive combos, still. Patty Mills (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/playerpage/1685263/patty-mills) and Dewayne Dedmon (http://www.cbssports.com/nba/players/playerpage/2096062/dewayne-dedmon), in particular, have been great, and that's evident when you watch them. Don't be surprised if those guys play big minutes in the playoffs.

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kawhi-leonard-is-so-great-at-defense-hes-actually-hurting-the-spurs/

Clipper Nation

12-13-2016, 11:40 AM

If you're talking about this, he's elite this season.

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That list is incorrect. The NBA's real leaders in deflections are Tony Porker's player fans.

TheGreatYacht

12-13-2016, 12:12 PM

So numbers prove that Kiwi was riding Tim's coattails? And kiwistans thinks this argument is in his favor? :lmao
:lmao

Dre_7

12-13-2016, 12:33 PM

So numbers prove that Kiwi was riding Tim's coattails? And kiwistans thinks this argument is in his favor? :lmao

Read the article. :lmao

Kawhi locks down whoever he is guarding. Blame the rest of the starters.

bklynspursfan

12-13-2016, 01:31 PM

Read the article. :lmao

Kawhi locks down whoever he is guarding. Blame the rest of the starters.

People don't read or care much about context/facts, etc here. They have their agendas and proceed with their trolling and what not

Dre_7

12-13-2016, 01:51 PM

People don't read or care much about context/facts, etc here. They have their agendas and proceed with their trolling and what not

:tu

cjw

12-13-2016, 02:29 PM

So numbers prove that Kiwi was riding Tim's coattails? And kiwistans thinks this argument is in his favor? :lmao

Yes, to a degree he was riding Duncan's coattails defensively. But to the same extent, he's being hampered by a matador center.

Also, his defense was bound to take a slip given his greater offensive burden. His PPG are currently higher than any of Duncan's years except 2001-02 and USG% higher than any of Duncan's regular seasons. That + Gasol replacing Duncan = tell the story

Kawhitstorm

12-13-2016, 02:34 PM

It's not impossible to explain away his defensive numbers, but it's not easy. Right now, the Spurs defense gets better without him by a good portion. If that holds up for a season, everything else is just an excuse.

Kawhi is leading ALL the qualified players on the team (those who have played at least half as many minutes) in DRtg & is just right behind Dominos (doesn't play w/ Porker/Pau) who is supposedly playing All-NBA level defense.:rolleyes
The best defensive unit has been Dedmon/LMA/Kawhi/Simmons/Patty:wakeup

Cry Havoc

12-13-2016, 02:34 PM

bklynspursfan

12-13-2016, 02:40 PM

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kawhi-leonard-is-so-great-at-defense-hes-actually-hurting-the-spurs/

Really interesting article (didn't see it posted).

The biggest ? at this point is why some Parker and Gasol lineups end up being net positives for us on defense. It's really bizarre.

I posted it here :) http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265098&p=8826514&viewfull=1#post8826514

It's very strange, but maybe because they end up playing more against some 2nd units in spurts? Idk honestly. But surely, this is why stats need to be taken with context (like some backing up the claim Anderson was the best defensive wing on our team)

It's encouraging that we can get much better on both ends.

cd021

12-13-2016, 02:53 PM

Read the article. :lmao

Kawhi locks down whoever he is guarding. Blame the rest of the starters.

Just finished reading it, pretty depressing. Dedmon deserves a shot at starting in hopes of improving the defense.

bklynspursfan

12-13-2016, 07:11 PM

Just finished reading it, pretty depressing. Dedmon deserves a shot at starting in hopes of improving the defense.

Agreed. I think he'll get his shot, I just think it'll take a little time. When you bring in a guy like Pau, I feel like there's a mutual respect where you give at least 3 months or so to see how it goes, maybe even longer in some cases. I think when Playoffs role around, Dedmon will be starting

tonight...you

12-13-2016, 07:42 PM

Agreed. I think he'll get his shot, I just think it'll take a little time. When you bring in a guy like Pau, I feel like there's a mutual respect where you give at least 3 months or so to see how it goes, maybe even longer in some cases. I think when Playoffs role around, Dedmon will be starting
Good point.
I can see the change happening in the playoffs. Even a couple weeks after the All Star game, maybe. Pop is going to be patient, as long as they are winning.
Things will happen as he sees fit, and he takes chemistry and familiarity with the playbook into account. Dedmon better place his brain into that playbook, is all I can say.
And show consistency on his mid-range. Show commitment to Engelland and what he says.

"Corporate Knowledge"

Ice009

12-13-2016, 09:26 PM

Some quotes from here.. Mostly stuff we knew already, but sharing anyway/

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/kawhi-leonard-is-so-great-at-defense-hes-actually-hurting-the-spurs/

Thanks for posting. Great article from Matt Moore. That explains to me why the team defensive numbers are worst with Leonard on the floor. His teammates are so bad, they're making him look bad when he hasn't been anywhere near as bad as I thought.

tholdren

12-13-2016, 09:29 PM

Seventyniner

12-13-2016, 09:51 PM

bklynspursfan

12-13-2016, 10:05 PM

Think of what you are saying. KL effectively took the other teams BEST PLAYER and made him stand in a corner. That sir, is a defensive win. Its actually the white flag.

I agree. Some nights it'll work, and others it wont. It's really just to emphasize that Kawhi hasn't necessarily stopped playing great defense or had some major slippage like some have argued. There were some who felt K. Anderson has played better defense cause his DRTG was better. And i brought this up really to show everything needs context.

bklynspursfan

12-13-2016, 10:08 PM

Great article. This effect isn't as worrying against the Warriors and Cavs, though, because neither has inconsequential wings to limit Kawhi's destructiveness on defense.

With the amount of energy Kawhi has to spend guarding Durant and LeBron, though, he might take a step back on offense. I'm not sure the Spurs can score well enough like that.

Agreed, and it might be part of why we did well against the Warriors, though it was just 1 game and early.

The p&r defense has to improve though. And Dedmon will improve there due to his ability to guard the perimeter.

Agreed about the offense. It's really about which Mill/Simmons/Aldridge etc... show up. If they show up, we can match anyone imho

YGWHI

12-14-2016, 12:24 AM

Great article. This effect isn't as worrying against the Warriors and Cavs, though, because neither has inconsequential wings to limit Kawhi's destructiveness on defense.

With the amount of energy Kawhi has to spend guarding Durant and LeBron, though, he might take a step back on offense. I'm not sure the Spurs can score well enough like that.

I'm not sure if Pop will put Kawhi on Durant in the first quarters. Last playoffs, he gave Danny that assignment and put Kawhi on him just int he last minutes of the game, plus Kawhi destroyed Klay in the first game.

Sadly, Pop can't use his last season strategy against GSW. He put Kawhi on Dray to prevent Curry-Green P&Rs in the game the Spurs won but with KD for Barnes, they can't put LMA or Parker on him.

YGWHI

12-14-2016, 01:22 AM

It's really just to emphasize that Kawhi hasn't necessarily stopped playing great defense or had some major slippage like some have argued.

Thanks for posting the article!

This is the only thing that matters in the long term.

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"We know he's still locking up whoever he is facing"
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Also, I'd love to see Kawhi playing more time with Mills and Dedmon instead of Parker/Pau.

Chinook

12-14-2016, 12:22 PM

Kawhi is leading ALL the qualified players on the team (those who have played at least half as many minutes) in DRtg & is just right behind Dominos (doesn't play w/ Porker/Pau) who is supposedly playing All-NBA level defense.:rolleyes

I wouldn't even try to use DRtg to justify the argument. DRPM is much easier. The last thing you want is to get Kawhi compared to Carlos Boozer.

The best defensive unit has been Dedmon/LMA/Kawhi/Simmons/Patty:wakeup

In their 15 minutes of play time.

Chinook

12-14-2016, 12:28 PM

Read the article. :lmao

Kawhi locks down whoever he is guarding. Blame the rest of the starters.

The issue is that the article is pretty much wrong. Kawhi shut down Butler, and the Bulls really couldn't score during that stretch. The issue wasn't that Chicago learned how to neutralize the Spurs' D. The issue is that the Spurs managed to be even worse on O than the Bulls without Butler were. .gifs pointing out the successful Bulls plays are disingenuous.

Plus the article itself straight-up says that players are scoring at a better-than-average rate against Kawhi, and the author even showed a perfect example of why in that piece with Wade beating Leonard back door when Kawhi's eyes were across the court. Sure, everyone gets beat and Kawhi doesn't deserve to be shamed for it. But when you act like Kawhi's doing his job and everyone else is failing, it just comes out wrong.

bklynspursfan

12-14-2016, 12:35 PM

I wouldn't even try to use DRtg to justify the argument. DRPM is much easier. The last thing you want is to get Kawhi compared to Carlos Boozer.

I think whatever you choose to use, context is important. Look at that list of SF's , and it would be silly to think some of those guys are on Kawhi's level defensively.

In their 15 minutes of play time.

Small sample size, but that is probably the best defensive unit, maybe give or take Green. It's also the highest ranked OffRTG of units playing 15 or more mins, and Simmons in there is probably better than Green due to his ability to create off the dribble.

Horse

12-14-2016, 01:32 PM

Yet another reason he's the leagues best defender.

Dre_7

12-14-2016, 01:33 PM

The issue is that the article is pretty much wrong. Kawhi shut down Butler, and the Bulls really couldn't score during that stretch. The issue wasn't that Chicago learned how to neutralize the Spurs' D. The issue is that the Spurs managed to be even worse on O than the Bulls without Butler were. .gifs pointing out the successful Bulls plays are disingenuous.

Plus the article itself straight-up says that players are scoring at a better-than-average rate against Kawhi, and the author even showed a perfect example of why in that piece with Wade beating Leonard back door when Kawhi's eyes were across the court. Sure, everyone gets beat and Kawhi doesn't deserve to be shamed for it. But when you act like Kawhi's doing his job and everyone else is failing, it just comes out wrong.

I never said Kawhi was perfect but he is doing a damn good job. And the starters are not playing up to their defensive abilities. I think a lot of that has to do with Pau replacing Duncan. Pau is a great offensive player, but definitely a step down from Duncan when it comes to defense. I think if Dedmon starts a lot of the issues with the starters go away.

Chinook

12-14-2016, 01:44 PM

I never said Kawhi was perfect but he is doing a damn good job. And the starters are not playing up to their defensive abilities. I think a lot of that has to do with Pau replacing Duncan. Pau is a great offensive player, but definitely a step down from Duncan when it comes to defense. I think if Dedmon starts a lot of the issues with the starters go away.

The thing is that there isn't an issue with "the starters". There's an issue with Kawhi. Everyone else is relatively fine, especially without him. Shit, Parker is elite without him. The issue isn't that he forgot how to defend, and it's certainly not that he's so good that teams are leaving him alone. It's that his offense isn't conducive to winning. He won't be the first star to have to admit that. Westbrook is in the same camp.

Chinook

12-14-2016, 01:46 PM

Something that I don't think enough people are noting is how many minutes Kawhi's playing. So the samples without him are comparatively small, especially for starters. And when that happens, it's usually when the other team's at the end of their rotation, kind of like how it's darkest before the dawn.

spursistan

12-14-2016, 02:09 PM

The thing is that there isn't an issue with "the starters". There's an issue with Kawhi. Everyone else is relatively fine, especially without him. Shit, Parker is elite without him. The issue isn't that he forgot how to defend, and it's certainly not that he's so good that teams are leaving him alone. It's that his offense isn't conducive to winning. He won't be the first star to have to admit that. Westbrook is in the same camp.

Please stop it :lol At this point you're just really hating on him on the cool..when Kawhi hogs it while having a top 5 alltime scorer talent playing next to him for 8-9 seasons or high skilled/dominant big (Pau'08-11/Shaq) then you can start lumping him together with the likes of Russ/Kobe.

He's just initiating in that high usage role--though admittedly not suited for it longterm -- mainly due to dearth of legit playmakers on the team..Needless to expand more on how pathetic our backourt is and how lumbering and one-dimensional our All Star PF is...

dabom

12-14-2016, 02:21 PM

Please stop it :lol At this point you're just really hating on him on the cool..when Kawhi hogs it while having a top 5 alltime scorer talent playing next to him for 8-9 seasons or high skilled/dominant big (Pau'08-11/Shaq) then you can start lumping him together with the likes of Russ/Kobe.

He's just initiating in that high usage role--though admittedly not suited for it longterm -- mainly due to dearth of legit playmakers on the team..Needless to expand more on how pathetic our backourt is and how lumbering and one-dimensional our All Star PF is...

The guy is a kawhi hater. Sucks that his man green can't even dribble a fucking ball. :lmao

dabom

12-14-2016, 02:22 PM

We might be running plays through green instead of inserting the bones of old man manu. Shows you how garbage he is in that department. :lol

dabom

12-14-2016, 02:24 PM

No one actually listens to him. He has some really really garbage takes. And that's not even his bad takes. :lol

Dre_7

12-14-2016, 02:31 PM

Kawhitstorm

12-14-2016, 02:54 PM

In their 15 minutes of play time.

:pop:"That line-up isn't over itself":rolleyes

Chinook

12-14-2016, 03:08 PM

Please stop it :lol At this point you're just really hating on him on the cool..when Kawhi hogs it while having a top 5 alltime scorer talent playing next to him for 8-9 seasons or high skilled/dominant big (Pau'08-11/Shaq) then you can start lumping him together with the likes of Russ/Kobe.

See, when you start dogging HoF-caliber offensive players like Kobe and Russ, then you know you're biased. Nothing I'm saying has to do with Kawhi "hogging the ball". I don't think Leonard's doing anything that Pop doesn't want him to do. But you can't building your offense around the shots Kawhi takes unless your guy can drop 35-plus every game. That's not an attack on Kawhi, but instead a critique of how he's used.

Chinook

12-14-2016, 03:09 PM

:lmao

Wow! you are trippin!

Yeah, because I forgot how Kawhi is totally not playing like Melo or Kobe now. But of course, since Spurs fans hate Kobe they instantly think I'm saying Kawhi's selfish.

dabom

12-14-2016, 03:37 PM

Kobe and melo suck in crunch time. Kawhi not so much. So I don't see the comparison you POS. :lol

RD2191

12-14-2016, 04:22 PM

:lmao

Wow! you are trippin!

Chinook has lost it tbh. I'm genuinely worried he might be having a real life crisis or something.

Dre_7

12-14-2016, 04:35 PM

Yeah, because I forgot how Kawhi is totally not playing like Melo or Kobe now. But of course, since Spurs fans hate Kobe they instantly think I'm saying Kawhi's selfish.

What??????

bic50

12-14-2016, 07:22 PM

Basically like a shutdown cornerback that doesn't have the ball thrown his way. That's a good thing but then it's not.

313

12-14-2016, 07:23 PM

J28Cy_DF89Q

tonight...you

12-14-2016, 07:27 PM

J28Cy_DF89Q
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc9jmfS8611qzizmho1_500.gif

Chinook

12-14-2016, 07:35 PM

What??????

Saying Kawhi is playing like Kobe is just stating a fact. Spurs fans focus on Kobe's bad aspects and get offended. Non-Spurs fans think it's really high praise, since Kobe's "Mamba Mentality" is actually well-loved. Truth is I mean it both ways. Kobe is a HoF offensively player who had flaws that made him hard to fit in a team context. Kawhi is an All-NBA offensive player with those same flaws. That people can't accept that reality is sad.

Em-City

12-14-2016, 09:27 PM

Saying Kawhi is playing like Kobe is just stating a fact. Spurs fans focus on Kobe's bad aspects and get offended. Non-Spurs fans think it's really high praise, since Kobe's "Mamba Mentality" is actually well-loved. Truth is I mean it both ways. Kobe is a HoF offensively player who had flaws that made him hard to fit in a team context. Kawhi is an All-NBA offensive player with those same flaws. That people can't accept that reality is sad.

When you talk about Kobe's and Kawhi's offense, the shot selection is similar in some ways (1-on1 post-ups, spot-up 3s in the ) but quite different in others, especially when you consider the negative aspects of Kobe's game not evident in Kawhi's (ill-timed 3s, heavily contested 3s, tough long jumpers out of rythym, tendancy to "black hole").

I think you need to be clearer on aspects of where the similarities are, especially on offense.

YGWHI

12-15-2016, 03:10 AM

Kobe is a HoF offensively player who had flaws that made him hard to fit in a team context. Kawhi is an All-NBA offensive player with those same flaws. That people can't accept that reality is sad.

Ridiculous

809263314257723397

'But but Kawhi doesn't fit in a team context...:cry '

poeticism707

12-15-2016, 04:14 AM

I think you need to be clearer on aspects of where the similarities are, especially on offense.

This.

Brazil

12-15-2016, 08:42 AM

Kobe comparaison is silly, there is no other word or better there are bunch of other words like idiotic, stupid

It's not because Kawhi is increasing scoring off iso plays with some shot selections that could be better than he can be compared with Kobe... Kawhi in his worst year has a better effeciency than Kobe from 2 and 3 his whole career. Kobe has not a single year with .52 from 2 and .39 from 3. Now yes and we know that his assisted point % is decreasing like his corner 3... but again why comparing him with Kobe ? why not Lebron ? that seems to me a much better comparaison.

The fact Kawhi is working more iso than before is not an argument to compare him with Kobe the chuker

DarrinS

12-15-2016, 09:56 AM

It really is the other guys: The Spurs are 26th in the league in points per possession created by the pick-and-roll ball-handler. Tony Parker is in the 6th (!!!) percentile, Gasol the 30th percentile, Aldridge the 37th percentile. This does not bode well for their future.

:lol

Benoit

12-15-2016, 06:41 PM

lmao how many excuses does this guy need??

chokes in the 1st round and gets outplayed by Matt Barnes
chokes in the 2nd round and gets shut down by Robertson
doesnt play defense anymore

give it a rest, he just isnt that great

Hes a product of Pops system and theres a reason the Spurs havent even made it to the 3rd round since Tony Parker stopped carrying the load

dabom

12-15-2016, 06:45 PM

Lebron fucked thei Warriettes down 1-3. :lmao

Fucked Lebron in 2014 and broke up the heatlettes. :lmao

Kobe was getting his achilles torn before even making the playoffs. :lmao

Wildcat67

12-15-2016, 08:44 PM

If you're looking at stats that say he's not a good defender that says more about the validity of those stats than about Kawhi. We know he's a good defender and see it with our eye holes.

bklynspursfan

12-16-2016, 11:31 AM

Kawhi has jumped up to 22 in SF's in drpm.I don't know for sure, but I think he was much lower than that. (I think in the 40s) SA as a team has also jumped to #3 in DRTG.

So, the Spurs defense as a team has improved. Kawhi is doing what he's been doing. We just see a stronger overall team defense. Also seeing more Dedmon which helps.

So no, Kawhi isn't playing poor or weaker defense lately.

HarlemHeat37

12-16-2016, 02:36 PM

RPM is a pretty flawed stat when you look at it by isolating offense vs. defense, tbh..it's far more accurate when you look at the RPM numbers as a whole..

All these numbers are mostly skewed and irrelevant with the small sample size, though..the picture will be clearer around the All-Star break IMO..

In regards to Synergy stats, the sample size is too small to ignore the luck factor(opponents making/missing contested shots, etc), at this point..Kawhi has been a poor ISO defender, this season, but it's only 15 possessions, a sample size that can be dismissed..

I don't agree with the article, either, though..the writer just took a few examples and attempted to extrapolate them to form a conclusion..