BBall Breakdown: Is Kawhi Leonard Hurting the Spurs' Defense

[BillMc]

I swear this was posted before but it didn't come up on my searches....so,...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J28Cy_DF89Q

[Chews]

I've been on the edge about benching Pau, but this video has pushed me over. Not anything against Pau, except I wish provided more on D, but bringing Dedmon into the SL would do alot to solving this issue.

Ofc regarding the title, I think everyone would agree Kawhi isn't hurting the Spurs by being so great on D. Essentially taking a player completely out of the offensive scheme (usually their best) is pretty remarkable.

[Seventyniner]

Damn, this thing about narratives being more important than truth has even infected BBall Breakdown.

[DarrinS]

Damn, this thing about narratives being more important than truth has even infected BBall Breakdown.

What narrative would that be?

[DMC]

This isn't new information. When you shut down a star player, the rest of the team has to do their part to contain the others. If they cannot do that with you on the floor, how can they do it with you on the bench? You're the best defensive player in the league. Maybe the guy you're guarding is the reason the opponent's offense stagnates when he's ball hogging, and you defending him creates more ball movement and better results for team.

Speaks to ball movement and against star focused offense.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

:lol This shit has got to coach Nick too. Wouldn't have thought so.

[Seventyniner]

What narrative would that be?

That Kawhi is somehow hurting the Spurs D, i.e. they would be better off without him on that end. The numbers are not in Kawhi's favor right now but we have enough data from past seasons to know that he is still by far the best defensive option at his position.

[Robz4000]

:lol at this point it feels like a media campaign against Kawhi to help get Raymond the DPOY. Kawhi hasn't been quite as good on D as the past few years but this new idea that he's somehow become a negative is crazy. Does Raymond really need this much outside help to win an award he should supposedly be the easy frontrunner for?

[DarrinS]

That Kawhi is somehow hurting the Spurs D, i.e. they would be better off without him on that end. The numbers are not in Kawhi's favor right now but we have enough data from past seasons to know that he is still by far the best defensive option at his position.

Did you watch the video?

[313]

:lol at this point it feels like a media campaign against Kawhi to help get Raymond the DPOY. Kawhi hasn't been quite as good on D as the past few years but this new idea that he's somehow become a negative is crazy. Does Raymond really need this much outside help to win an award he should supposedly be the easy frontrunner for?
Whoever Kawhi guards shoots a higher FG% than their average %. The criticism comes with the territory.

[313]

Kawhi's best defensive attributes are how disruptive he is off ball, so taking him out of play and parking him in a corner is smart and reminiscent of Pop using Bonner/Diaw to take Ibaka out of the paint in 2014.

[GSH]

Whoever Kawhi guards shoots a higher FG% than their average %. The criticism comes with the territory.


We could spend some time arguing about that, but why bother? The claim is that Kawhi is "hurting the Spurs defense". So the real question is - are those people shooting a higher FG% with Kawhi guarding them than they would with some other Spur guarding them? Maybe we should have Anderson, or Bertans, or Manu guarding the best scorer on opposing teams? I'm sure that would help our overall defensive numbers.

BTW - even the author of that article didn't try to suggest that Kawhi is a sub-standard defender. He's saying that Kawhi's reputation for good defense has caused other teams to use a strategy that takes him out of the mix. What you're suggesting - that Kawhi is not defending those guys as well as the other players they face - that's just an invalid conclusion.

[Mikeanaro]

Well is not like he is Harden or some other clown.

[skulls138]

What a misleading title. What it should be called is "Parker's too small and too old, Pau's too slow and too old and LMA's not pulling his weight." 3/5ths of the starting 5 are just bad defensively, so bad that the opposing team can afford to camp their star player on the weak side like he is Kyle Anderson or something.

[RD2191]

What a misleading title. What it should be called is "Parker's too small and too old, Pau's too slow and too old and LMA's not pulling his weight." 3/5ths of the starting 5 are just bad defensively, so bad that the opposing team can afford to camp their star player on the weak side like he is Kyle Anderson or something.

Tbh

[Chris]

All those steals and fast break dunks really hurt the team :lol

[Play Boban]

Truth bombs :wow

[cd021]

Kawhi's best defensive attributes are how disruptive he is off ball, so taking him out of play and parking him in a corner is smart and reminiscent of Pop using Bonner/Diaw to take Ibaka out of the paint in 2014.

Good point.

[Spurtacular]

:lol at this point it feels like a media campaign against Kawhi to help get Raymond the DPOY. Kawhi hasn't been quite as good on D as the past few years but this new idea that he's somehow become a negative is crazy. Does Raymond really need this much outside help to win an award he should supposedly be the easy frontrunner for?

And by this, you are including Coach Nick in the typically amoral media?

[Robz4000]

And by this, you are including Coach Nick in the typically amoral media?

In general tbh. Coach Nick is just piggybacking off what mainstream media has been saying the past few weeks which makes Kawhi seem like he's overrated on defense. If I start seeing videos from him proclaiming Raymond as DPOY then he can be lumped in with them.

[100%duncan]

What a misleading title. What it should be called is "Parker's too small and too old, Pau's too slow and too old and LMA's not pulling his weight." 3/5ths of the starting 5 are just bad defensively, so bad that the opposing team can afford to camp their star player on the weak side like he is Kyle Anderson or something.

[rasuo214]

In general tbh. Coach Nick is just piggybacking off what mainstream media has been saying the past few weeks which makes Kawhi seem like he's overrated on defense. If I start seeing videos from him proclaiming Raymond as DPOY then he can be lumped in with them.

Eh this would give me the opposite impression. If teams are game-planning to counteract his defensive presence then that speaks volumes on how good he is, but the team defensive numbers also displays how weak his teammates have been defensively. Pop and Kawhi need to find a way to get Kawhi more involved defensively, whether that is playing more zone defense, adjusting the SL/rotations/minutes or tweaks to the defensive scheme. I'm sure Pop will figure something out.

[Southwest Texas Fan]

We could spend some time arguing about that, but why bother? The claim is that Kawhi is "hurting the Spurs defense". So the real question is - are those people shooting a higher FG% with Kawhi guarding them than they would with some other Spur guarding them? Maybe we should have Anderson, or Bertans, or Manu guarding the best scorer on opposing teams? I'm sure that would help our overall defensive numbers.

BTW - even the author of that article didn't try to suggest that Kawhi is a sub-standard defender. He's saying that Kawhi's reputation for good defense has caused other teams to use a strategy that takes him out of the mix. What you're suggesting - that Kawhi is not defending those guys as well as the other players they face - that's just an invalid conclusion.

:toast

[r0drig0lac]

I swear this was posted before but it didn't come up on my searches....so,...


this video has only four days

[ducks]

His d is down a little but Duncan is not behind him

[John Petrucci]

Never seen the media so in love with analytics, anything to make a Spur/The Spurs look bad :lol

Looking at YT comments on this BBall Breakdown vid, even shitty casuals on YT seem to get what's going on for the most part.

[Chinook]

I don't know why this is so difficult for people to understand. Kawhi isn't hurting the Spurs' defense AND his numbers aren't bad because everyone else is bad. Neither of those things are true. Moore's article was intellectually irresponsible. That was the point Coach Nick made at the end of his video. But no one should be worried about Kawhi's ability to play defense. He hasn't lost it. We should also feel very confident that when he comes time for him to lock down someone that he will be able to do it. But it's just not likely that the numbers are going to look good this year for a variety of reasons.

[100%duncan]

His d is down a little but Duncan is not behind him

even ducks gets it

[Cry Havoc]

I don't know why this is so difficult for people to understand. Kawhi isn't hurting the Spurs' defense AND his numbers aren't bad because everyone else is bad. Neither of those things are true. Moore's article was intellectually irresponsible. That was the point Coach Nick made at the end of his video. But no one should be worried about Kawhi's ability to play defense. He hasn't lost it. We should also feel very confident that when he comes time for him to lock down someone that he will be able to do it. But it's just not likely that the numbers are going to look good this year for a variety of reasons.

We have a top 5 defense, which isn't too shabby.

[dabom]

We have a top 5 defense, which isn't too shabby.

:lol

[Chinook]

We have a top 5 defense, which isn't too shabby.

That was kind of my point. The article tries to pin Kawhi's numbers on Parker and Pau, who themselves aren't having horrible defensive years. It's completely dissonant, but instead of realizing his point sucked, he filed all that under 'unresolved issues', like it was a freaking footnote.

The Spurs aren't a bad defensive team, with or without Kawhi. Kawhi is a great defender who hasn't been as good as previous years. There are numerous reasons why they aren't as good defensively this year in comparison to last. But their main issue is their offense right now. That hasn't changed since the first game of the year. Sometimes, it doesn't hurt them, but it's really obvious what is wrong with the team when they lose.

[spursistan]

812186296869191682

[YGWHI]

Whoever Kawhi guards shoots a higher FG% than their average %. The criticism comes with the territory.

813180745720233989

[YGWHI]

BBall Breakdown selected some plays and decided what to show and what to hide in the video, to make Coach Nick point.

They won't show these type of Kawhi's defensive plays because they don't fit in the narrative Kawhi-hurting-the-team's-Defense.

812169294092046336

[bic50]

:claw

[ElNono]

:lmao:lmao:lmao this garbage

[GSH]

Yeah, my daughter is in from the Peace Corps, but she keeps up with her Spurs. She was talking about this earlier today. We both said the same thing. Kawhi is paying the price for Pop trying to make him the feature on both ends of the floor. He's good enough to change a game on the defensive end, and not many players are. This horseshit about him hurting the Spurs on D? I don't know how it got enough traction to even get discussed. He makes the players around him better by playing D. I think it hurts Kawhi AND the team to not take full advantage of that.

In other words, the article got things exactly ass-backwards.

[YGWHI]

Yeah, my daughter is in from the Peace Corps, but she keeps up with her Spurs. She was talking about this earlier today. We both said the same thing. Kawhi is paying the price for Pop trying to make him the feature on both ends of the floor. He's good enough to change a game on the defensive end, and not many players are. This horseshit about him hurting the Spurs on D? I don't know how it got enough traction to even get discussed. He makes the players around him better by playing D. I think it hurts Kawhi AND the team to not take full advantage of that.

In other words, the article got things exactly ass-backwards.

Since Kawhi is top 5 on PER in December, almost 90 percentile from every spot on the floor, top 6 scorer in 4th quarter...It's not like his offensive development doesn't worth the price.

He's a true two-way player who can change a game on both ends now.

The article was premature, Spurs were #11 on Defense but they're top 5 in the league again. And Kawhi is one of the main reasons for that high ranking

[skulls138]

Yeah, my daughter is in from the Peace Corps, but she keeps up with her Spurs. She was talking about this earlier today. We both said the same thing. Kawhi is paying the price for Pop trying to make him the feature on both ends of the floor. He's good enough to change a game on the defensive end, and not many players are. This horseshit about him hurting the Spurs on D? I don't know how it got enough traction to even get discussed. He makes the players around him better by playing D. I think it hurts Kawhi AND the team to not take full advantage of that.

In other words, the article got things exactly ass-backwards.How is he paying the price? Hes top 3 player (I think hes the best) on the second best team. Also Green can be the best defender if need be.

I think its a blessing in disguise if the best player on the other team camps out on the weakside because it allows KL to rest for O.

[Benoit]

How can you be considered a great defender if you cant stop Matt Barnes in a game 7?? lmao

[bic50]

Scrub tier trolling ^^^

[GSH]

Since Kawhi is top 5 on PER in December, almost 90 percentile from every spot on the floor, top 6 scorer in 4th quarter...It's not like his offensive development doesn't worth the price.

He's a true two-way player who can change a game on both ends now.

The article was premature, Spurs were #11 on Defense but they're top 5 in the league again. And Kawhi is one of the main reasons for that high ranking


He's a great two-way player. I think that he is more dominant on the defensive end than the offensive end. And I think the perception by most is that Kawhi isn't dominating on D as much as he did the last two years. Unless something changes, I don't think they're going to give him another DPOY. Last year, I don't think there was much doubt.

Last year, his FG% was .506 and his EFG% was .565 - and 55% of his shots were assisted. This year, his FG% is .471 and his EFG% is .528 - and only 47% of his shots are assisted. So, yeah, I think he's paying a price on both ends.

You really want to get specific? He's taking more shots in the middle of the shot clock this season, and a LOT fewer of those mid-clock shots are being assisted. Like 44% this year vs 64% last year. And his offensive efficiency suffers for it.

I don't think there's any doubt that he's expending one hell of a lot more energy on the offensive end than he used to. I don't have any numbers to back it up, but my gut says that a lot of his scoring bursts come at times when the Spurs are also playing better defense. I think that would happen more often if Kawhi wasn't being forced work so hard creating more of his own shots.

BTW - the original article wasn't about the Spurs' team defense, but the ON/OFF stats. The team was giving up more points per 100 possessions while he is on the floor than while his is off the floor. It still is. A portion of that is because "bad offense leads to bad defense on the other end". I personally think the Spurs would be better off to get 100% out of Kawhi's defense, and to run less iso for him on offense.

[duncan2k5]

Tbh a lot of it is tony not passing him the ball, and them not posting up kawhi...he is a killer in the post, and with Aldridge and gasol being able to stretch the floor, they should focus on that more often instead of having him take his man off the dibble from the 3 point line... That should only happen if the offense has broken down...kawhi has the potential to be an elite scorer...especially when u factor in the fact that he really doesn't shoot a lot...if he had as many shot attempts as the leading scorer, he would be top 3...

I'm not saying he should start chucking though...I'm saying he needs more opportunities in his spots...wasn't he one of the leading post players last year?

[Raven]

We have a top 5 defense, which isn't too shabby.

going for top of the league tbh

[TheDoctor]

BBall Breakdown selected some plays and decided what to show and what to hide in the video, to make Coach Nick point.

They won't show these type of Kawhi's defensive plays because they don't fit in the narrative Kawhi-hurting-the-team's-Defense.

812169294092046336

Official Spurs/Paddy's killer was ready to go nuts on that 2nd sequence until Kawhi said... NO... again.

Left with a head-scratcher :lol

[Chinook]

I love how Sean was smugly saying "I thought the Spurs were supposed to be better defensively without Kawhi" right before the Spurs put on one of their best defensive halves of the season. Then he was silent as shit about it. Again, it's obvious that Kawhi is a great defender who still has another gear or two to reach his max on that end. But it's not him trying to cover for a lot of terrible defenders like the article implied.

Instead, it's a team that's prone to get into ruts on both ends, and those two things feed into each other and spiral into some bad losses. If they share the ball, help each other out on D and keep their heads, they become a buzz saw. In that way, they have as much room for improvement as any team in the league does.

[dabom]

Playing a dleague team. :lol

[YGWHI]

I think that he is more dominant on the defensive end than the offensive end.
I think that some people sell him so short on offense.

Not because he isn't one of the best scorers in the league, but because he has been so good on defense than people aren't ready for his improvements on the other end.

Some people don't know how good he's at off the dribble jumps or getting his own shot in P&Rs, he's elite on most game offensive situations but people still ignore it.


And I think the perception by most is that Kawhi isn't dominating on D as much as he did the last two years.
Not really. Not after his last games -especially against Wiggins and Butler- the media starting to give him the same credit on defense than previous years.

You can read in articles that 4 of 5 guys will consider to vote for Kawhi DPOY this season...
http://hoop.nba.com/nba_hoop_featured/around-the-rim-5/

It should Gobert but Dray and Kawhi are always options and Kawhi will steal votes.


Last year, his FG% was .506 and his EFG% was .565 - and 55% of his shots were assisted. This year, his FG% is .471 and his EFG% is .528 - and only 47% of his shots are assisted. So, yeah, I think he's paying a price on both ends.

So...that's the price? Just .03 FG% and .03 EFG%? Well, it's a really low price. I'll take it every day if that means to develop him on offense.


He's taking more shots in the middle of the shot clock this season, and a LOT fewer of those mid-clock shots are being assisted. Like 44% this year vs 64% last year. And his offensive efficiency suffers for it.

Again, his efficiency suffers just .03%.

It seems like you never looked at Westbrook/Harden/Kyrie/DeRozan/Klay/Buttler FG%/EFG%...All main scorers in the league are low .50%. KD is the only player averaging +25ppg in +50 FG%


I don't have any numbers to back it up, but my gut says that a lot of his scoring bursts come at times when the Spurs are also playing better defense. I think that would happen more often if Kawhi wasn't being forced work so hard creating more of his own shots.

Kawhi scored 35 points at the same time that locked down Klay in the first game, he plays his best on both ends when he's involved on offense and keep scoring the whole game.

His best game in 2014 Finals was game 3 when he scored 29 and had to defend LeBron on the other side.


BTW - the original article wasn't about the Spurs' team defense, but the ON/OFF stats. The team was giving up more points per 100 possessions while he is on the floor than while his is off the floor. It still is. A portion of that is because "bad offense leads to bad defense on the other end".
Well, Moore article shows otherwise, also Doc and Hoiberg said it after the games. Because with Kawhi out of equation, other teams are beating the Spurs 4 on 4, according to them it's not about our offense or Kawhi's defense.


I personally think the Spurs would be better off to get 100% out of Kawhi's defense, and to run less iso for him on offense.
You posted on other thread that Spurs' biggest flaws are 1 and 5 position and since Parker is still the starting point guard, the Spurs aren't top candidates to win it all.

I agree with you at some point, I still think they have a shot but it's fairly slim, this season is more about a transition process after Tim's retirement.

That's why I don't care if Kawhi goes Iso more than last year, I can see it like a needed improvement in order to win in next seasons.

I guess Pop wants Kawhi to learn how to deal with pressure, how to make those tough shots in last seconds that win ships.

Because in playoffs, a player doesn't always have a clean, open look, he has to force a bit and go Iso like Irving's Iso-three point than gave the Cavs the title.

So if the Spurs are taking this season to improve those areas of his game, I'm fine with it.

[YGWHI]

I love how Sean was smugly saying "I thought the Spurs were supposed to be better defensively without Kawhi" right before the Spurs put on one of their best defensive halves of the season.

He was right. He said it after the Spurs put one of their worst defensive halves against the worst team in the West.

Doesn't matter if they improved in the second half...they had to. After all they were playing a 9-23 team.

[TheGreatYacht]

Tim Hardaway Jr with a career high lmfao

comparing him to Jae Crowder might actually be an insult to the Celtic...

[Kawhitstorm]

Tim Hardaway Jr with a career high lmfao.

Kawhi meanwhile silenced Korver in the 4th quarter/OT after he shutdown Thabo the entire game.:toast

[TheGreatYacht]

Kawhi meanwhile silenced Korver in the 4th quarter/OT after he shutdown Thabo the entire game.:toast
FIFY son :lmao

[spursistan]

859572182489473026
859489858296832000
859535718863056896
859496940832251907

Rockets doing that gimmick of putting him on an island with Anderson..

[Benoit]

LMAO SPURS SHUTTING DOWN ROCKETS WITHOUT LEONARD

hahahaha this guy is so fucking overrated

[sananspursfan21]

Games like this do make you wonder...

[HarlemHeat37]

Games like this do make you wonder...

:lol

[313]

We shut them down in games 2 and 3 as well, I don't think this is any idictment on Kawhi's defense.

However, I've been thinking for a while that Pop gets way too much credit for his offensive system and not NEARLY enough credit for his defensive system.

[bic50]

LMAO SPURS SHUTTING DOWN ROCKETS WITHOUT LEONARD

hahahaha this guy is so fucking overrated
Bitch troll

[NASpurs]

Rest him for the rest of the playoffst bh.