Kawho?

[ElNono]

This team is too stacked, tbh... should the Spurs sell high on Kiwi, tbh, maybe get some young talent like Randle, Nance Jr and a vet like Lou Williams?

[100%duncan]

Kawhobe

[TheGreatYacht]

The System will succeed no matter what player is out tbh

[MultiTroll]

Mozgov and Dueng

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Kawhi to the Bobcats for the #1 overall the next two years tbh.

[RD2191]

:lol

[ElNono]

Unfortunately that snitch D'tective can't coexist with Parker, tbh

[BillMc]

He's sooooo 2016

[HarlemHeat37]

Not sure if I'd even trade Kyle for that bust-ass nigga Ingram, tbh:lol

[TheGreatYacht]

Not sure if I'd even trade Kyle for that bust-ass nigga Ingram, tbh:lol
:lmao

[YGWHI]

Lou Williams would be a great replacement for Manu...And I'd pick Randle or Nance Jr over Gasol too.

Also, Kawhi would come to his home being the franchise player of a big market team...A win-win situation for both sides.

Lets do it! :tu

[MI21]

Beal has looked better this season, the Spurs should look to trade Kawhi for Beal and try and pick up a defensive SF as well, someone like Ariza...

[RD2191]

Beal has looked better this season, the Spurs should look to trade Kawhi for Beal and try and pick up a defensive SF as well, someone like Ariza...
You...you forgot the blue font..

[dabom]

Op with the guds. :lmao

[Spurs9]

Beal has looked better this season, the Spurs should look to trade Kawhi for Beal and try and pick up a defensive SF as well, someone like Ariza...

:lmao

[Chinook]

Hopefully, this narrative that the rest of the roster is so terrible that Kawhi has to carry them dies. If Leonard is doing too much, it's because Pop isn't finding the right balance, not because the other guys need him to.

[FkLA]

Hopefully, this narrative that the rest of the roster is so terrible that Kawhi has to carry them dies. If Leonard is doing too much, it's because Pop isn't finding the right balance, not because the other guys need him to.

Blue font?

[YGWHI]

Hopefully, this narrative that the rest of the roster is so terrible that Kawhi has to carry them dies. If Leonard is doing too much, it's because Pop isn't finding the right balance, not because the other guys need him to.

Thinking that his teammates don't need him or he's dispensable for this team is so bad trolling.

They didn't need him against the worst team in the West last game and against the worst defense in the league tonight.

But they needed him to beat playoffs-teams in several games this season. Just a troll can't see that.

[Trainwreck2100]

can't believe we traded paul jorge for him

[Kawhitstorm]

Thinking that his teammates don't need him or he's dispensable for this team is so bad trolling.

They didn't need him against the worst team in the West last game and against the worst defense in the league tonight.

But they needed him to beat playoffs-teams in several games this season. Just a troll can't see that.

Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557): Spurs don't need Kawhi against teams that Simmons can dominate.:cry

[spursistan]

Hopefully, this narrative that the rest of the roster is so terrible that Kawhi has to carry them dies. If Leonard is doing too much, it's because Pop isn't finding the right balance, not because the other guys need him to.
Chill...we just played two of the shittiest teams/defenses in the league at home.. .You can't help taking Kawhi down a peg, can you? :lol

[SAGirl]

:toast. Funny thread Nono made me laugh.... some real funny gems in this one ... specially D'snitch detective not meshing with Tony... :lmao


As for Chinook, I think he has a point in that the team is a good team... Having Kawhi gets them to a championship level. Hopefully they don't hit dry patches in the playoffs where only Kawhi and Lamarcus can score. I am starting to have more faith. Others hitting their stride too is important. It's a team sport and Kiwi needs these guys.
:lobt2:

[spurs10]

Kawwow for Austin Rivers! Do it Pop! We need someone who can lead the team!!

[Chinook]

Chill...we just played two of the shittiest teams/defenses in the league at home.. .You can't help taking Kawhi down a peg, can you? :lol

Only the most intellectually dishonest shills like Y can take what I said as trolling. There is a prevailing narrative that this current team is bad and that Kawhi is the only reason why they are relevant. This is not exclusive to ST or Spurs fan. It's the same motivation that underlies most LMA trades or Green trades to a lesser extent. The Spurs are not Kawhi and a bunch of terrible to slightly above-average players, which is what a lot of people think. They are a middling playoff team plus a top-five player, and that's about the same talent level of the Cavs, if not more.

Anyway, to be back on track, that belief was what was behind Moore's stupid article about Kawhi's defensive numbers (Kawhi can't possibly be playing worse defense this year; it has to be all those scrubs he's carrying), or why Pop is running the flattest offense he has in a decade (Kawhi has to score all by himself because no one else on the team can get points). It's ridiculous.

The Spurs are a great team, from 1-9. It's bad enough that fans of other teams think they are in the same tier as Boston and Utah. We sure don't need Spurs fans making even worse evaluations.

[Chinook]

Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557): Spurs don't need Kawhi against teams that Simmons can dominate.:cry

I wish. Be much easier against the Warriors if Kawhi were just gravy and not like the whole meal.

[Kawhitstorm]

Only the most intellectually dishonest shills like Y can take what I said as trolling. There is a prevailing narrative that this current team is bad and that Kawhi is the only reason why they are relevant. This is not exclusive to ST or Spurs fan. It's the same motivation that underlies most LMA trades or Green trades to a lesser extent. The Spurs are not Kawhi and a bunch of terrible to slightly above-average players, which is what a lot of people think. They are a middling playoff team plus a top-five player, and that's about the same talent level of the Cavs, if not more.

Anyway, to be back on track, that belief was what was behind Moore's stupid article about Kawhi's defensive numbers (Kawhi can't possibly be playing worse defense this year; it has to be all those scrubs he's carrying), or why Pop is running the flattest offense he has in a decade (Kawhi has to score all by himself because no one else on the team can get points). It's ridiculous.

The Spurs are a great team, from 1-9. It's bad enough that fans of other teams think they are in the same tier as Boston and Utah. We sure don't need Spurs fans making even worse evaluations.

You're basing your narrative off two games where Porker played like it was 2013 against two shitty teams when he couldn't even outplay Raymond Fatton last week.:lol

If Porker could play like MVParker then yeah the Spurs would be LEGIT contenders but that's unfortunately not the case. What you saw is a mirage, it's not like the Mavs w/o Dirk/Bogut didn't beat the Blazers on the road w/ Lillard in the line-up.:lol

[Chinook]

You're basing your narrative off two games where Porker played like it was 2013 against two shitty teams when he couldn't even outplay Raymond Fatton last week.:lol

First, people were about to kill themselves after one half and one quarter of those games when they thought the Spurs looked lost without Leonard. These games are either informative or they're not. Second, that the Spurs would struggle to beat the best teams without their best player doesn't support that narrative. Of course the Spurs need all hands on deck, especially their biggest hand, to achieve their potential. That's a far cry from the folks thinking they struggled the past two games in a way they hadn't done with Kawhi there. Finally, I'm basing my evaluation off the myriad playoff success, awards and experience of the rest of the Spurs' rotation. The entire top nine except Dedmon are proven players.


If Porker could play like MVParker then yeah the Spurs would be LEGIT contenders but that's unfortunately not the case. What you saw is a mirage, it's not like the Mavs w/o Dirk/Bogut didn't beat the Blazers on the road w/ Lillard in the line-up.:lol

Parker doesn't have to do that every game, especially not to that extent. It's extremely nice to see Parker and Manu step up with Kawhi out and LMA neutralized. Them being consistent stars in the playoffs is too much to ask; them being non-negatives in the post-season with a game or two where they drop a star-like impact is not. That's what $30 Million should buy you.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Chinook, we are not as good as the Cavs.

LeBron, Kylie, Thompson, and Kevin Love are pretty much always gonna be there, barring injury.

Aside from Kawhi and now Patty, we don't know if we are going to get enough to beat the best teams in the league on an average given night.

Playing against the Cavs, Clippers, or Warriors, we are not a smart bet right now, 7-game series or regular season 1-off.

We need Simmons to give us 80% of what he have us last night on a consistent basis in order to have a chance.

And it's mostly because we can't get stops consistently against the good teams. Our defense is the worse it's been since a year or 2 before Danny Green.

[ElNono]

It's all relative, tbh. $30 million also buys you Hayward/Favors, Cousins/Gay, Rondo/Butler... duos whose ceiling are playoff fodder... I would agree though that giving somebody like Manu a multi-year guaranteed deal is bad business (same for Tony, tbh).

The reality is that in the playoffs your first and second option are likely going to be shut down for series at a time, and you're going to need other guys to step up. But you need those over the top talent to even have that conversation. Spurs are easily first/second round fodder without Kawhi, especially defensively.

[RD2191]

I'm convinced Chinook has lost it. Something is not right with that guy.

[ElNono]

I'm convinced Chinook has lost it. Something is not right with that guy.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion. His grades were good too.

[Big Empty]

Kawhobe
Ha ha brilliant

[Chinook]

Chinook, we are not as good as the Cavs.

LeBron, Kylie, Thompson, and Kevin Love are pretty much always gonna be there, barring injury.

First off, my comment was saying was in the context of both teams missing their best player. Lebron is a true GOAT candidate. The gap between him and Kawhi is unreal, and that has nothing to do with criticizing Leonard. You take Lebron away, and you get a Cavs team that isn't half as good. That's why they get sonned by teams like Detroit when Lebron rests. Listing off Cavs players is just naming names. They really depend on Lebron to make them better in a way the Spurs' players don't, because they were all accomplished before Kawhi became a star. Leonard didn't teach them how to win like James did with the Cavs.


Aside from Kawhi and now Patty, we don't know if we are going to get enough to beat the best teams in the league on an average given night.

Yes, and that's been true for most non-stars. I own Kyrie in fantasy. He's not consistent at all. He might be his points, but it'll be on like 40-percent shooting or worse a lot of nights. Love has been well-documented.


7-game series or regular season 1-off.

Those are two dramatically different things. I know you were probably implying that, but the Spurs are possibly the best game-planning team in the league. They know how to limit Lebron and Curry and even KD for the most part in a series. I can understand the Warriors, but I don't see any reason why the Spurs shouldn't be favored over the Cavs in a series right now.



We need Simmons to give us 80% of what he have us last night on a consistent basis in order to have a chance.

And it's mostly because we can't get stops consistently against the good teams. Our defense is the worse it's been since a year or 2 before Danny Green.

Yes, the Spurs will have to play better D is they are to win a title. And GS will have to stop turning the ball over stupidly. The old guys on the Cavs are going to have to step up again. Everyone has question marks.

[Chinook]

Spurs are easily first/second round fodder without Kawhi, especially defensively.

No one ever said they weren't. That's not unusual for teams missing their best players. Most of the elite teams aren't making it out of the first round without their top guy. That's why top guys get paid so much. That's NOT what people have been saying about the Spurs outside of Kawhi. They've been saying much, much worse. There's a huge gap between saying the Spurs are not contenders without Kawhi and the Spurs outside of Kawhi are terrible. The Moore article and the evaluations of a disturbing number of fans assert the latter, not the former.

[Chinook]

I'm convinced Chinook has lost it. Something is not right with that guy.

Been doing me wrong left and right, Rob.

[r0drig0lac]

I'm convinced Chinook has lost it. Something is not right with that guy.

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif

[ElNono]

No one ever said they weren't. That's not unusual for teams missing their best players. Most of the elite teams aren't making it out of the first round without their top guy. That's why top guys get paid so much. That's NOT what people have been saying about the Spurs outside of Kawhi. They've been saying much, much worse. There's a huge gap between saying the Spurs are not contenders without Kawhi and the Spurs outside of Kawhi are terrible. The Moore article and the evaluations of a disturbing number of fans assert the latter, not the former.

That was Sean's point more or less though. This place is a different story altogether, tbh, our current lineup would be something like DWill, Beal, Ariza, Chandler and Boban :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

No one ever said they weren't. That's not unusual for teams missing their best players. Most of the elite teams aren't making it out of the first round without their top guy. That's why top guys get paid so much. That's NOT what people have been saying about the Spurs outside of Kawhi. They've been saying much, much worse. There's a huge gap between saying the Spurs are not contenders without Kawhi and the Spurs outside of Kawhi are terrible.

It was just last season that the Grizz made the postseason w/ a D-League roster & the Mavs took one game away from OKC while starring Fatton.:lol

A team led by LMA w/ a supporting cast of max contract talent (Lillard/Batum/CJ) + Lopez/Leonard got annihilated by the Grizzlies in 2015 & you're out here hyping up a team featuring TOSB Pau/Porker.

In 2013, OKC w/o WB lost in 5 to the same team that got annihilated by the Spurs in the WCF. Then WB missed half the season in '13-'14 & they still won 59 games, now they are only a game behind last season's record after 33 games so I guess there shouldn't be a huge drop off in the postseason compared to the team that was up 3-1 in WCF w/ Durant?:lol

[TheGreatYacht]

Chinook is 100% correct. Kiwifan acts like this team is a lottery team without him just to prop their guy up. There's no way this team w/o Kawhi isn't a playoff team..... the Kings are currently a playoff team

[Kawhitstorm]

Chinook is 100% correct. Kiwifan acts like this team is a lottery team without him just to prop their guy up. There's no way this team w/o Kawhi isn't a playoff team]..... the Kings are currently a playoff team

.......which is why beating the Suns/Blazers or being a 7th seed w/o Kawhi shouldn't be seen as a huge accomplishment (see '15-'16 Mavs).:sleep

[duncan2k5]

Posts like this make me embarrassed to be a spurs fan...we beat 2 trash teams without kawhi and all of a sudden we don't need him...he is the difference between a championship and a first round exit...

We won games without Duncan in the past...guess we should have traded him, right? I really hope kawhi doesn't read these forums... And if he does, don't leave bro...us sours fans LOVE you...you brought us a ring, and u will bring more...

This is his FIRST season being the offensive focus of the team...tell me how many players had this success at this point of their careers? Smfh

[RD2191]

Been doing me wrong left and right, Rob.

:lol you still muh dude and of the best posters on this site.

[Hoops Czar]

It's all relative, tbh. $30 million also buys you Hayward/Favors, Cousins/Gay, Rondo/Butler... duos whose ceiling are playoff fodder... I would agree though that giving somebody like Manu a multi-year guaranteed deal is bad business (same for Tony, tbh).

The reality is that in the playoffs your first and second option are likely going to be shut down for series at a time, and you're going to need other guys to step up. But you need those over the top talent to even have that conversation. Spurs are easily first/second round fodder without Kawhi, especially defensively.

Spurs are first and second round fodder WITH Kawhi. See: 2015 and 2016 NBA season

[Hoops Czar]

Chinook, we are not as good as the Cavs.

LeBron, Kylie, Thompson, and Kevin Love are pretty much always gonna be there, barring injury.


The Cavs are a lottery team in the east without Lebron.

[Clipper Nation]

The Cavs are a lottery team in the east without Lebron.

Hoops Tard finally admitting the greatness of LeGOAT :wow

[Chinook]

Posts like this make me embarrassed to be a spurs fan...we beat 2 trash teams without kawhi and all of a sudden we don't need him...he is the difference between a championship and a first round exit...

We won games without Duncan in the past...guess we should have traded him, right? I really hope kawhi doesn't read these forums... And if he does, don't leave bro...us sours fans LOVE you...you brought us a ring, and u will bring more...

This is his FIRST season being the offensive focus of the team...tell me how many players had this success at this point of their careers? Smfh

If it's not clear, Nono's OP was sarcastic. No one wants to trade Kawhi, not even those who act like the biggest Leonard haters on the board. Nono was just making a little joke, probably jabbing at that premature thread lambasting the Leonard-less D in the Suns game that got prematurely bumped again last night.

Anyway, my post isn't about denigrating Leonard. It doesn't make Kawhi a worse player because his supporting cast isn't terrible. I am just annoyed how many fans dismiss other guys and then use that as an excuse for Pop running a terrible offense. He needs to find a way to get everyone to play this way WITH Kawhi. That takes active coaching, which I don't really think he's been doing too much of this season.

[bic50]

Spurs are first and second round fodder WITH Kawhi. See: 2015 and 2016 NBA season
He said "easily".

[Hoops Czar]

If it's not clear, Nono's OP was sarcastic. No one wants to trade Kawhi, not even those who act like the biggest Leonard haters on the board. Nono was just making a little joke, probably jabbing at that premature thread lambasting the Leonard-less D in the Suns game that got prematurely bumped again last night.

Anyway, my post isn't about denigrating Leonard. It doesn't make Kawhi a worse player because his supporting cast isn't terrible. I am just annoyed how many fans dismiss other guys and then use that as an excuse for Pop running a terrible offense. He needs to find a way to get everyone to play this way WITH Kawhi. That takes active coaching, which I don't really think he's been doing too much of this season.

The narrative really hasn't changed for the Spurs. This is a mid-range jump shooting team and in the postseason when defenses tighten and shooting %'s decrease, the Spurs are going to struggle. The Spurs rank 28th in points in the paint, 21st in fast break points and 29th in 3-point FGs attempted. The Spurs defense isn't good enough to offset such offensive inefficiencies. The team's success is largely dependent on players past their prime contributing in ways they haven't in years (Parker, Ginobili) and for players who have never played a prominent role in big game situations (Simmons, Dedmon, KA) to have a major impact for the Spurs to have any chance at a deep playoff run. No offense to Kawhi, but he's not Lebron.

[ElNono]

Spurs are first and second round fodder WITH Kawhi. See: 2015 and 2016 NBA season

This is a different team without TD on bad wheels, tbh...
Some will say better, some will say worse

[duncan2k5]

If it's not clear, Nono's OP was sarcastic. No one wants to trade Kawhi, not even those who act like the biggest Leonard haters on the board. Nono was just making a little joke, probably jabbing at that premature thread lambasting the Leonard-less D in the Suns game that got prematurely bumped again last night.

Anyway, my post isn't about denigrating Leonard. It doesn't make Kawhi a worse player because his supporting cast isn't terrible. I am just annoyed how many fans dismiss other guys and then use that as an excuse for Pop running a terrible offense. He needs to find a way to get everyone to play this way WITH Kawhi. That takes active coaching, which I don't really think he's been doing too much of this season.

Ok, fair enough

[dabom]

I'm convinced Chinook has lost it. Something is not right with that guy.

He's not very bright.

[DMC]

Trade KL along with his 2 DPoY and that FMVP trophy for a decent two way player. Obviously he's not needed. .. ... ....

[SAGirl]

If it's not clear, Nono's OP was sarcastic. No one wants to trade Kawhi, not even those who act like the biggest Leonard haters on the board. Nono was just making a little joke, probably jabbing at that premature thread lambasting the Leonard-less D in the Suns game that got prematurely bumped again last night.

Anyway, my post isn't about denigrating Leonard. It doesn't make Kawhi a worse player because his supporting cast isn't terrible. I am just annoyed how many fans dismiss other guys and then use that as an excuse for Pop running a terrible offense. He needs to find a way to get everyone to play this way WITH Kawhi. That takes active coaching, which I don't really think he's been doing too much of this season.
Chinook..
I am not so hot on Pounding the Rock but they do occasionally have series with vines or .gifs of plays that are nice to see.
In this article Eli Horowitz basically makes a reference of how the Spurs still were able to score at a good rate despite the absence of Kawhi the past couple of games. He does note they were against two very weak defensive teams, but still... player movement and off ball movement are present and a reason for Spurs success (I would argue defensively is where others had to step up big time)
http://www.poundingtherock.com/2016/12/31/14134738/spurs-playbook-exposing-a-defense-with-the-weave-and-off-ball-movement

This play makes any offense that regularly features one guy dribbling for 20 seconds before pulling up for a contested jumper look like a fireable offense.
814288061815226368

[bklynspursfan]

No one ever said they weren't. That's not unusual for teams missing their best players. Most of the elite teams aren't making it out of the first round without their top guy. That's why top guys get paid so much. That's NOT what people have been saying about the Spurs outside of Kawhi. They've been saying much, much worse. There's a huge gap between saying the Spurs are not contenders without Kawhi and the Spurs outside of Kawhi are terrible. The Moore article and the evaluations of a disturbing number of fans assert the latter, not the former.

Why was the Moore article terrible in your eyes? It was numbers, but with context. It would be silly to just look at some numbers and ignore context that comes with it, no?

[bklynspursfan]

The Spurs have been winning regular season games without their stars for years. It's obvious we need them tho come playoff time.

I know this thread is sarcastic, but yea....

[Chinook]

Why was the Moore article terrible in your eyes? It was numbers, but with context. It would be silly to just look at some numbers and ignore context that comes with it, no?

First, because the thesis was biased (if you assume Leonard isn't the problem, then you can't objectively evaluate what the problem is -- of course you're going to conclude that it's everyone else if you do that). Second, it asserted that Chicago (and even worse, Orlando and Washington) used a certain strategy to win (or to come close in Washington's case). That was wrong because a) Chicago didn't use that strategy nearly as much as the article suggested and b) they scored really poorly using that strategy -- far worse than they would have normally. Third, he never actually addresses the real numbers. Instead he makes his points and then sort of leaves a footnote in the conclusion that he can't explain the numbers. It's so ridiculous.

And no offense, but please spare the "You're just hating on Kawhi" reply. There's been too much back-and-forth about that over the past couple of weeks at it is. The point isn't that Kawhi sucks or is overrated. It's that a) It makes no sense to blame the other players for Kawhi's numbers when they had better ones without him and b) for a lot of reasons, Kawhi hasn't been able to be as consistently effective on D as he was in the previous years. There were much better ways to address those numbers that were more fair to Kawhi, the Spurs as a whole and basic logic. Instead, Moore wrote for a headline and caused a firestorm off a shit article.

[bklynspursfan]

First, because the thesis was biased (if you assume Leonard isn't the problem, then you can't objectively evaluate what the problem is -- of course you're going to conclude that it's everyone else if you do that). Second, it asserted that Chicago (and even worse, Orlando and Washington) used a certain strategy to win (or to come close in Washington's case). That was wrong because a) Chicago didn't use that strategy nearly as much as the article suggested and b) they scored really poorly using that strategy -- far worse than they would have normally. Third, he never actually addresses the real numbers. Instead he makes his points and then sort of leaves a footnote in the conclusion that he can't explain the numbers. It's so ridiculous.

Maybe Chicago, Orlando, or Washington didn't do it on purpose. But when they did it, it made sense and Kawhi was away from the ball/action. And Moore did what you said, but it's fair. Numbers don't always tell the whole story. They never have... Some numbers are unexplainable, and deserve more in depth investigating. Otherwise we should believe there are 16 SF's better defensively than Kawhi, including Rudy Gay. Sorry, but I know that's not true.



And no offense, but please spare the "You're just hating on Kawhi" reply. There's been too much back-and-forth about that over the past couple of weeks at it is. The point isn't that Kawhi sucks or is overrated. It's that a) It makes no sense to blame the other players for Kawhi's numbers when they had better ones without him and b) for a lot of reasons, Kawhi hasn't been able to be as consistently effective on D as he was in the previous years. There were much better ways to address those numbers that were more fair to Kawhi, the Spurs as a whole and basic logic. Instead, Moore wrote for a headline and caused a firestorm off a shit article.

I think his D has been very consistent. Maybe there's been a slight slippage due to the larger offensive load, but I don't think the numbers reflect his actual effort. He's still disrupting passing lanes, shutting his guy down, and 5th in deflections at nearly 4 a game, and easily the best wing defender we have. But if you honestly don't think having Pau in at the 5 vs Duncan, and with Green being out early on wouldn't have an impact on the overall defense, then it's probably pointless to discuss. There's no more funneling guys to Duncan in the middle. Duncan isn't in there with him communicating and directing guys. So he's taken on a greater responsibility and load on both ends. A slight slippage is expected, but he isn't a negative defender. That's where context matters.

[dabom]

Maybe Chicago, Orlando, or Washington didn't do it on purpose. But when they did it, it made sense and Kawhi was away from the ball/action. And Moore did what you said, but it's fair. Numbers don't always tell the whole story. They never have... Some numbers are unexplainable, and deserve more in depth investigating. Otherwise we should believe there are 16 SF's better defensively than Kawhi, including Rudy Gay. Sorry, but I know that's not true.




I think his D has been very consistent. Maybe there's been a slight slippage due to the larger offensive load, but I don't think the numbers reflect his actual effort. He's still disrupting passing lanes, shutting his guy down, and 5th in deflections at nearly 4 a game, and easily the best wing defender we have. But if you honestly don't think having Pau in at the 5 vs Duncan, and with Green being out early on wouldn't have an impact on the overall defense, then it's probably pointless to discuss. There's no more funneling guys to Duncan in the middle. Duncan isn't in there with him communicating and directing guys. So he's taken on a greater responsibility and load on both ends. A slight slippage is expected, but he isn't a negative defender. That's where context matters.

This is why Chinook is a dumbass. :lol

[Chinook]

Maybe Chicago, Orlando, or Washington didn't do it on purpose. But when they did it, it made sense and Kawhi was away from the ball/action. And Moore did what you said, but it's fair. Numbers don't always tell the whole story. They never have... Some numbers are unexplainable, and deserve more in depth investigating. Otherwise we should believe there are 16 SF's better defensively than Kawhi, including Rudy Gay. Sorry, but I know that's not true.

The problem isn't with questioning the numbers and researching further. The problem is with trying to objectively evaluate a situation while also assuming a conclusion. That biases the entire process, including the data collection, which was evident in the way Moore picked only a couple of examples that supported his point while ignoring that they weren't the norm for that game. Numbers don't tell the whole story, and the numbers may also change with more data. But they are rarely wrong with a large sample. It gets to the point that people have to accept less and less likely scenarios to reject what the numbers say. I'm not saying it's the case here, but eventually, there comes a point when saying "I know that's not true" becomes plain denial.

Eventually you are what the numbers say you are. In Kawhi's case, though, I'm pretty sure that his numbers are normalizing as the full rotation plays more minutes together, which was always a more likely explanation than the shit Moore pulled out. Also, I think the Spurs are getting better offensively than they were in games 5-15 or whatever stretch it was where they lost a number of games.


But if you honestly don't think having Pau in at the 5 vs Duncan, and with Green being out early on wouldn't have an impact on the overall defense, then it's probably pointless to discuss.

I've never said that there aren't factors that hurt the D outside Kawhi. Everyone knows that. But that doesn't explain why Kawhi's numbers were the worst on the team. If those things affected him, they should have affected everyone else just as much.


So he's taken on a greater responsibility and load on both ends. A slight slippage is expected, but he isn't a negative defender. That's where context matters.

The thing is, that can be demonstrated statistically. Overhelping, compensating defensively, those things show up in numbers like points of cuts and spot-up percentage allowed. I'm not sure if they do for Kawhi one way or the other, but that's not something one should say ad hoc without investigating. Personally, I don't think it's the case at all that Kawhi is struggling to carry a worse D. I think if anything, the absence of Duncan has made Kawhi less able to play the D he wants. Essentially, he used to be able to help more, because Tim's shot-blocking gave Kawhi more leeway to get back to his man. Now with turnstile Pau there, he has to stay close, which hurts his ability to affect the opposing offense. That is a narrative that can be supported based on the previously mentioned stats.

If that's the case, the solution would be for Leonard to help more, at the expense of his man scoring more. If Wiggins wants to stand 30 feet from the basket, let him. You don't have to worry about him out there, so stop "locking him down". Butler standing so far in the corner that he's behind the backboard doesn't warrant too much attention. Help, hell, overhelp, and I bet the individual numbers hardly go up at all, while the team numbers would improve. Even if Moore's assertion were true, there's no reason it should work. Very few players really warrant guarding when they're so far out of the play, and those guys aren't going to be decoys for their teams.

[dabom]

Chinook writes a lot of nothing. Ask him what he thinks, not if's and what's. :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

I wish that virus would've kept him out a month smh

[Kawhitstorm]

I wish that virus would've kept him out a month smh

I guess Porker's daddy WestBrick isn't on the schedule this month?