Greatest game ever?

[Jimcs50]

This has to be one of the greatest, if not the greatest game in the history of playoff baseball.

Astros come back from 5 run deficit in 8th and 9th inning

2 Grand Slams hit

Ausmus hitting a 2 out bottom of the 9th homer to tie the game and send it to another full 9 innings

There were too many great defensive plays to list

Almost 6 hrs of baseball played, 2 full games of innings

14 different pitchers used, including every pitcher that Houston could use.

The Astros were all out of pinch hitters after 15th inning

Wheeler and Clemens pitching 3 almost perfect innings, the latter on 2 days rest.

A walk off homer by a player that was only used after the 14th inning

The Red Sox had a great game in game 4 of the ALCS last year, but this one might have topped it

[Sense]

I don't think so.

[Jimcs50]

I don't think so.

ok, name one better.

[Horry For 3!]

I don't know but it was pretty damn good. I'm glad the Astros won it too :)

[clooneyschick04]

Maybe not the best game ever played but definitely the best game I've ever seen. Geaux 'Stros! :elephant

[2pac]

I agree. Name one better.

Got to the game 2 hours before the start. Standing room only tickets. Stood for 8 freakin hours.

[Spurminator]

It's hard to beat this one, really... I mean, it was two great games packaged together. You had NINE INNINGS of shutout baseball for both teams until the final at bat. From the 10th Inning on, this was the equivalent of the Morris/Smoltz classic in the 1991 World Series being played in "sudden death" format for 9 innings.

Two grand slams. Dominant pitching performance from Hudson. Comebacks. Game-tying homerun with two outs in the bottom of the ninth. Empty bullpens. Catchers playing first base. Hall of Fame Pitcher pitching in relief. Walk-off homerun. Team eliminated.

Un freakin real. It's too bad so many people were watching football and missed out on this game.

[samikeyp]

I watched the previous longest playoff game ever (Hou-NYM 1986) so glad this one turned out different!

[FromWayDowntown]

I think in terms of sheer drama, Game 7 of the 1991 World Series was better.

In terms of extra inning drama, Game 6 of the 1986 NLCS was better, too. In today's game, there weren't many legitimate scoring threats in extra innings. In that 1986 game, the Mets got 3 in the 9th to send it to extra innings. Then, in extra innings, the Mets scored 1 in the top of the 14th and the Astros got 1 in the bottom of the 14th. The Mets got 3 in the top of the 16th, and the Astros got 2 in the bottom of the 16th and had two runners on when Kevin Bass struck out to end the game. That game wasn't just long; it was an epic.

That said, it was a great game.

[King]

Morris and Smoltz was good. Yanks/DBacks game 7 was great, too.

[FromWayDowntown]

To be fair, Garner played in the 1986 game that I prefer and I just heard him call today's game the greatest -- I wonder if he'd feel that way if the Astros had extended that 1986 game a bit further or won it . . . .

Couple of years ago, ESPN called the 1986 game the greatest (non-World Series) playoff game ever.

It's a close call.

[2pac]

In today's game, there weren't many legitimate scoring threats in extra innings.

I pissed my pants when ATL got bases loaded with 1 out - then didnt score.

[Spurminator]

Yeah there were a few scares from Atlanta... I didn't know how the Astros were going to score a run with the way their lineup had been torn apart. The 14th looked promising until Ensberg grounded into a double play.

[Spurminator]

I bought the MLB Gameday Audio Playoff package so I could listen to the afternoon games at work, and you can go back and listen to archived games. Just got to hear Milo the last play. Now I know it really happened.

[FromWayDowntown]

I thought the most interesting thing about today's game was the differing managerial styles that Garner and Cox employed. Garner played for the moment, at the risk of detriment to his team later; Cox stuck with his starting lineup (mostly) and simply pinch hit for his pitchers.

Had that game gone a bit further, Garner would have faced some interesting choices. Clemens in left field and some other position player pitching?

[Jimcs50]

Page 2





Sunday, October 9


Editor's note: By popular demand of fans, skeptics, retirees and people who love to mock other people, Second Guessing returns for more October baseball.

David Schoenfield: I'm drained and I only watched for 18 innings. My heart is racing -- in awe of Roger Clemens, excited for Chris Burke, aching for Joey Devine. I'm listening to Phil Garner in the postgame press conference -- he was on the losing side in the previous longest playoff game ever played, Houston's 16-inning loss to the Mets in 1986. As Astros fans know, this game can rip you apart sometimes. And then it delivers this.

Maybe I'm caught up in the instant history of the moment, but do we rank this as the greatest playoff game of all time, non-World Series version?

Eric Neel: It's 1 or 1A. There are some gaffes "early" on in this one -- Marcus Giles and Julio Franco pulling their feet off the bag to extend innings; Adam LaRoche not busting it around third for what would have been the difference-making run -- and it doesn't have the swings of the Mets-Astros in '86, either. Remember, the Mets scored three in the ninth to tie that one, went up in the 14th and Billy Hatcher tied it, then the Mets went up again in the 16th, and the Astros got back to within a run, with the tying run on second, when it finally ended. This one was all pitchers in the extras, which was mighty impressive (Qualls, Wheeler, and Clemens were remarkable), but it didn't have that same back-from-the-brink flavor that the '86 game did.

So I think, 18 innings and all, I still give that earlier game the slight edge. That said, the very presence of Roger Clemens in this game, first in the batter's box and then on the hill, makes this game today ripe with history and folklore. We've seen Orel Hershiser and Randy Johnson do something like what Roger did today, but not in the 18th inning, and not with the very real prospect of pitching another four or five innings if he'd had to. So maybe, given that, and given that it was clinched with a home run, from a kid who's been waiting patiently behind Craig Biggio all year (in what was supposed to be his year) & maybe you should forget what I just said about '86 &

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•David: I remember coming home from school in '86 and the game was in the eighth inning. It went on forever. Remember, the Mets had won 108 games and seemed invincible. Houston had Mike Scott ready to win Game 7. Talk about invincible, Scott was going to win that game, so it really was a life-or-death situation for the Mets even though it was only Game 6. Of course, it was played in the Astrodome with the silly rainbow unis, so maybe it loses a few bonus points because of that. But it did feature the rotund figure of Aurelio Lopez getting the loss. And I mean rotund. Don't miss it next time it airs on ESPN Classic.

Continued...


But ... I think you're forgetting two games of recent vintage, Eric, and I suspect you may be forgetting on purpose, only because you West Coasters never pay attention to what happens back east. Your dislike of all things Red Sox and Yankees is clouding your normally astute judgment. Aaron Boone? Big Papi? These names ring a bell?
The Aaron Boone Game ... curses, managerial blunders, comebacks, Pedro, Rocket, extra innings, a game-winning homer to win the series. You're not saying a Game 6 actually tops that one, are you?

Eric: So I see my rhetorical use of hyperbole didn't sway you, eh? The Boone Game is fantastic, no doubt. Top 3, no doubt, but it only went 11, brother. There are curses, managerial controversies, comebacks, Pedros, Rockets, and there are home runs, but there is absolutely no substitute for the creeping, turn-of-the-screw passage of inning after inning and hour after hour. The Boone Game went 11; 11 was like intermission in the two Astros games.

Jim Caple: One thing I consider -- I love extra innings, but was there anything great going on in those innings apart from a lot of guys overswinging and trying to end the game with one shot?

Eric: That's a good point, and like I said, today lacked for dramatic swings (if not for overswings), but as the game wears on, as inning follows inning, you get a chance to take the measure of the thing, to consider the long, tortured Atlanta history, to reflect on how insane it is that Clemens is doing what he's doing, etc.

David: I think we have to consider the Sid Bream Game from '92. The Pirates, having lost the NLCS the previous two years, enter Game 7 with a 2-0 lead in the bottom of the ninth and lose it. That one comes with a high degree of pain factor.

And something else: We have the Aaron Boone Game or the Sid Bream Game. Does this game go down as the Chris Burke Game? I don't think so.

Eric: Why not? Because we don't think about the Astros that way? I mean, when the Braves won the Bream game they weren't yet the Braves. The Astros have advanced to two straight NLCS now, I don't see why we can't think of them, and of Burke, as pretty legit and memorable at this point.

Jim: They are definitely legit. And the pain they've suffered is off the chart

Eric: Yeah, to me, with Burke hitting the home run, and Jose Cruz and Phil Garner among those greeting them, this is a mighty special afternoon, and not just in Houston.

David: You're right; maybe I'm underselling the Astros and Mr. Burke. And Jim's right, their suffering is too often ignored by baseball fans and media. This game, henceforth, shall be known as the Chris Burke Game.

Jim: Except in Atlanta, where it's the Kyle Farnsworth Game.

By the way, this is now 27 one-run playoff games, nine one-run extra innings games for Atlanta in the Cox era. And that does not include the World Series.

Eric: Those numbers actually add a kind of tragicomic depth to what went on this afternoon, don't they? I argued earlier that the Braves losing was hardly news, and therefore kind of counted against this game, but given what Jim brings up here, maybe the very fact that it was the Braves who lost today makes this game even richer, more interesting and significant.

David: What about M's-Yankees from '95? You guys know I have to squeeze that one in here. And that Game 5 topped off a series in which four of the five games were classics, including a 15-inning affair won by Jim Leyritz's homer in the rain.

Eric: Great series, great Game 5, and bolstered by the fact that it ended 417 years of Mariner wandering in the desert.

Jim: Absolutely. Games 4 (Edgar Martinez won it with a grand slam in the eighth) and 5 were the most exciting I've covered, though my own personal feelings enter into that. And I think that's what it ultimately comes down with so many great ones to choose from -- what did it mean for you?

David: True, you can't tell a Red Sox fan that Games 4 and 5 against the Yankees last year weren't the greatest ever played. He's likely to make jokes about your mother and then steal your baseball cards. I'm a Mariners fan, so Game 5 from '95, with Griffey popping his smile from underneath the pile at home plate, makes my list of top 5.

Eric: If we're talking about games that "meant something" to me, let me include here the Dodgers over the Mets in Game 4 of the 1988 NLCS; Orel Hershiser on in relief, after Mike Scioscia takes Doc deep to tie the game in the ninth.

Jim: Game 5, 1980 NLCS. Phillies over Astros. Seven lead changes. Nolan Ryan with the lead in the eighth of a clincher.

David: A true classic, the fourth straight extra-inning game of the series. And nobody ever talks about it. Unbelievable.

Jim: A golden oldie for Eric. I'm not nominating it, but just to remind my favorite Dodger fan -- 1985, Game 5 NLCS.

Eric: Yeah, I still send Tom Niedenfuer a dead fish wrapped in newsprint every Christmas.

Jim: This is an exercise that is as frustrating as it is fun. I mean, how do you narrow the list?

David: OK, let's finish up with everyone listing their top 5 playoff games.

My list:
5. 1992 NLCS, Game 7: Braves 3, Pirates 2 (the Sid Bream Game)
4. 1980 NLCS, Game 5: Phillies 8, Astros 7 (10 innings)
3. 1986 NLCS, Game 6: Mets 7, Astros 6 (16 innings)
2. 1995 ALDS, Game 5: Mariners 6, Yankees 5 (11 innings)
1. 2003 ALCS Game 7: Yankees 6, Red Sox 5 (11 innings)

Eric: My list:
5. 1995 ALDS, Game 5 and 1999 NLCS, Game 5 (Mets, 4, Braves 3, 15 innings, The Robin Ventura Game)
4. Game 4, 1988 NLCS: Dodgers 5, Mets 4 (12 innings)
3. The Aaron Boone Game
2. The Chris Burke Game
1. 1986 NLCS, Game 6

Jim: My five:
5. 2004 ALCS, Game 4: Red Sox 6, Yankees 4 (12 innings; Big Papi wins it) :elephant
4. The Aaron Boone Game
3. 1995 ALDS, Game 5
2. 1986 ALCS, Game 5: Red Sox 7, Angels 6 (11 innings; The Dave Henderson/Donnie Moore Game)
1. 1986 NLCS, Game 6

[Spurminator]

Yeah I thought Garner overmanaged a little bit, but more often than not I like that approach.

[Sense]

You're gonna sit there and tell me this is what the playoffs is all about?

I know this aint the best post season game.

[Spurminator]

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/video/dds_sell.jsp?cat=classics

[gameFACE]

Best game ever? Don't know yet but definitely the best Astro's game ever and on for the books overall. The Rocket came through big time after Game2.

[midgetonadonkey]

I stopped watching in the 7th to go to a church festival. :bang :bang

[2pac]

Game 6 in 1997 ALCS was amazing too.

Mike Mussina pitched 8 perfect innings.

Clevaland hit a 12th innings HR to win 1-0.

[T Park]

You're gonna sit there and tell me this is what the playoffs is all about?



Brink of elimination, fighting for you life, going 18 innings??

What do you want them to do,


Play till the death??

[tlongII]

ok, name one better.

Game 6 of Cincinatti vs Boston.

[ShoogarBear]

I still put the 86 Astros-Mets above this one, even though Houston lost that one.

[CubanMustGo]

Best game ever? It's up there.

Biggest bunch of chokers ever? The Atlanta Braves. And (some, pretty stupid) people get on the Spurs for not being clutch.

[2pac]

I dont think either team can be labelled as a choker after that.

[Jimcs50]

Best game ever? It's up there.

Biggest bunch of chokers ever? The Atlanta Braves. And (some, pretty stupid) people get on the Spurs for not being clutch.

Chokers?

Who picked this young team to win the division????

Not one national pundit picked Atlanta, they all picked Florida.

The Braves played very good ball all year long and were beaten by the best staff in baseball, which is no shame at all.

[tlongII]

Jim,

Check your PM's!

[slayermin]

Game six in '86 between Hou and NYM was probably the best game I ever saw but I have only watched it once. The details escape me but I do remember Bob Knepper pitching his butt off and Billy Hatcher hitting the foul pole for that game tying homerun.

The '86 Mets have to be one of the greatest squads ever assembled. And I hated them.

I watched the last 4 or 5 innings of yesterdays game so I guess it's not fair for me to vote. I hope it will be replayed as an instant ESPN classic.

[CubanMustGo]

Chokers?

Who picked this young team to win the division????

Not one national pundit picked Atlanta, they all picked Florida.

The Braves played very good ball all year long and were beaten by the best staff in baseball, which is no shame at all.

Sigh. Chokers as in "14 straight trips to the playoffs, exactly ONE WS to show for it." Plus had a huge lead in this game and blew another one.

[ShoogarBear]

If the Braves are chokers, what does that make the Stros?