When Did LBJ became the best player in the world? and MVPs he should have won?

[apalisoc_9]

I remeber TD aknowledging Lebron being the best player in the world after 07...

Should he have won 2011-2012 MVP and some other years?

[BD24]

He should have won whatever year it was they gave it to the rapist, thats for sure. I am sure there is other years he should have won as well.

[GSH]

He did everything better than Kobe in 07-08, if I remember right, except 3P% and maybe FT%. I mean everything.

He won in 11-12. You're thinking 10-11, when Derrick Rose won. That was LeBron's first year with Miami, and his numbers weren't as good as the year before. But I have no doubt that I'd rather have him on a team than Rose that year (or any year). The really ridiculous thing was that LeBron wound up 3rd in the MVP, behind Dwight Howard.

I would have given it to him all 6 years, from 07-08 till 12-13.

[Galileo]

I remeber TD aknowledging Lebron being the best player in the world after 07...

Should he have won 2011-2012 MVP and some other years?

Duncan was a lot better in 2007 than LBJ.

[Kawhitstorm]

He did everything better than Kobe in 07-08, if I remember right, except 3P% and maybe FT%. I mean everything.

Choke-P3 actually led the league in win-shares & led the Hornets to a better record than the Cavs.:wakeup


He won in 11-12. You're thinking 10-11, when Derrick Rose won. That was LeBron's first year with Miami, and his numbers weren't as good as the year before. But I have no doubt that I'd rather have him on a team than Rose that year (or any year). The really ridiculous thing was that LeBron wound up 3rd in the MVP, behind Dwight Howard.

That was Dwert's best season & he was better than Rose that season, tbh.:lol

HBHEIXjFrPk

[GSH]

Duncan was a lot better in 2007 than LBJ.


He was, in fact, the more valuable player. You know that. I know that. But MVP votes are mostly determined by PTS and AST's. Duncan "only" put up 20 per game that year, and didn't receive a single first place vote. Shameful, really.

[apalisoc_9]

Duncan was a lot better in 2007 than LBJ.

I dont know. Duncan himself said it was lebrons league in 2007...

People forget how shitty that cavs team was...

[GSH]

I dont know. Duncan himself said it was lebrons league in 2007...

People forget how shitty that cavs team was...


By that time, Duncan was fully into "make other players better" mode. His numbers suffered, but at any given time, in any given game, he could just take over. I can't argue with how good LeBron was by that time. If I was trying to win a championship, I would have picked Tim over 'Bron, though. Because it was more complicated trying to build a winning team around LeBron, than around Tim. With Tim in the middle, everyone else became better. With LeBron, a lot of guys just had to get out of his way. That's the way I saw it, anyway.

But when it comes to MVP voting, there's no doubt. That was when LeBron became the best. I wouldn't even argue that point.

[baseline bum]

Probably in the 2007 ECF. I still can't believe he took that legendary 08 Celtics team to seven games by himself.

[Kawhitstorm]

I dont know. Duncan himself said it was lebrons league in 2007...

https://goldinauctions.com/ItemImages/000006/6016d_lg.jpeg

[BillMc]

He was, in fact, the more valuable player. You know that. I know that. But MVP votes are mostly determined by PTS and AST's. Duncan "only" put up 20 per game that year, and didn't receive a single first place vote. Shameful, really.

It's my recollection that it was in the ECF that year, when LBJ made the public perception "leap" when he scored something like 20+ straight and finished off that Detroit team who had dominated the East in mid-2000s. It was then he went from a rising prodigy to being in the conversation for best in the game. Or so I recall. Could be wrong.

[Kawhitstorm]

I still can't believe he took that legendary 08 Celtics team to seven games by himself.

Joe Johnson took those same Celtics to 7 & actually had a more EFFICIENT series.:lol

nheRrtNOcnI

LeBron wasn't that impressive (actually ABSOLUTELY abominable for the first 2 games) until Gm 7 where he got cucked by Pierce:

66FNMqAAmX4

[tenbeersbold]

Gtfo tbh,Lebronze is a joke,been hiding out in the East avoiding any real competition, resting his sorry ass even then.Real warriors wanna do battle with the other best player's in the league on a constant basis,they thrive off that elite competition.
Seriously you gonna slob a player whose goto move is an offensive foul ?!? (His retarded bully back down to the basket on a smaller player) smdh

[baseline bum]

Joe Johnson took those same Celtics to 7 & actually had a more EFFICIENT series.:lol

nheRrtNOcnI

LeBron wasn't that impressive (actually ABSOLUTELY abominable for the first 2 games) until Gm 7 where he got cucked by Pierce:

66FNMqAAmX4

Johnson had quality NBA players around him. LeBron's starting backcourt was a legit bipolar homeless guy and the corpse of Wally Sczerzbiak's career. His starting 4 was Ben Wallace three years after playing his last meaningful minutes of basketball. All he had on that team was Ilgauskas after a bunch of foot surgeries. That team would be lucky to win 12 games if LeBron missed the season with injury.

[apalisoc_9]

Gtfo tbh,Lebronze is a joke,been hiding out in the East avoiding any real competition, resting his sorry ass even then.Real warriors wanna do battle with the other best player's in the league on a constant basis,they thrive off that elite competition.
Seriously you gonna slob a player whose goto move is an offensive foul ?!? (His retarded bully back down to the basket on a smaller player) smdh

bro, he just beat a 73 win team..

He's not hiding from anyone..

:lol

[spurraider21]

at least as early as 2009, probably earlier

[Kawhitstorm]

Johnson had quality NBA players around him. LeBron's starting backcourt was a legit bipolar homeless guy and the corpse of Wally Sczerzbiak's career. His starting 4 was Ben Wallace three years after playing his last meaningful minutes of basketball. All he had on that team was Ilgauskas after a bunch of foot surgeries. That team would be lucky to win 12 games if LeBron missed the season with injury.

'08 LeBron on the Hawks wouldn't have done any better than push the Celtics to 7 games.:wakeup

The "legit bipolar homeless guy" actually outplayed Ray Allen in that series & carried LeBron in Gm 3.:lol

[pookenstein]

I dont know. Duncan himself said it was lebrons league in 2007...

People forget how shitty that cavs team was...

If I remember correct, he (Tim) said, that this will be his (LeBron's) league soon.

[Mal]

Dwain Casey said something like that - "When he`s basketball intellingence catch up with freakish athletism, he became unstoppable"

[tenbeersbold]

Bogut doesn't go down and Warriors walk all over the Cavs sorry.Bogut was that good,hell Bogut was one of the few players who could neutralize Timmy D,plus that Finals record is ugly for s supposed great whose teams had the most highest/stacked payrolls after '07

[baseline bum]

Bogut doesn't go down and Warriors walk all over the Cavs sorry.Bogut was that good,hell Bogut was one of the few players who could neutralize Timmy D,plus that Finals record is ugly for s supposed great whose teams had the most highest/stacked payrolls after '07

Kyrie doesn't go down and the Cavs walk all over the Warriors in 2015.

[GSH]

If I remember correct, he (Tim) said, that this will be his (LeBron's) league soon.


Absolutely right. After the Spurs totally dismantled the Cavs in the Finals, Tim was nice enough to send LeBron a note telling him that it was going to be his league "in a little while". It was a gesture. He wasn't endorsing 'Bron as the best player in the league at that moment. He was trying to make him feel better about getting curb-stomped. But LeBron was one of the 3 best in the league.

Nowitzki won the MVP that year, because he was the best player on a team that won 67 games. Nash was second because... whatever. Numbers 3,4, and 5 were Kobe, Tim, and LeBron. Those were the three best players in the league.

For the record, the Spurs swept the '07 Finals because of defense. They held the series to something like an 83 Pace, and limited the Cavs to just over 80 PPG. Tim was a defensive BEAST that whole year, not just in the playoffs. Bowen was the best perimeter defender, but Tim ruled the paint. (LeBron was a respectable defender, but he clearly started paying more attention to it after that series.) The ONLY weak spot in Tim's game was that he shot around 63% from the FT line.

One thing the stats can never show is that by 06-07, everyone had concluded that the only way to defend Tim was to deny him the ball. He was wrestling and clawing for position on every play, and when the ball was on his side of the floor, it wasn't uncommon for them to slide another defender over and double him off the ball. That practice had a lot to do with his teammates getting wide open looks. And when he did get the ball in the post, he often waited for the double team so that he could pass out of it. Usually, though, it was the next pass that found someone totally open for a shot. If the NBA gave hockey assists, a lot of people might have more respect for just how valuable Tim really was.

MVP voting is always biased toward PPG, and most fans only notice the guys who dribble and shoot. But the best, most complete player in the league that year? I still say it was Tim. That's no slight to how good LeBron was by then.

[GSH]

It's my recollection that it was in the ECF that year, when LBJ made the public perception "leap" when he scored something like 20+ straight and finished off that Detroit team who had dominated the East in mid-2000s. It was then he went from a rising prodigy to being in the conversation for best in the game. Or so I recall. Could be wrong.


The PUBLIC perception? Nope. LeBron was second in the MVP voting the previous season. You're clearly more perceptive than the "public", and that's just one more example. That series showed that he had the ability to dig deep and come through under pressure. Personally, I think he learned a lot from the Finals loss, and came back thinking more about team and defense the next year - because those are the things that made the Spurs better than the Cavs. It's a debate that can never be won, but for me it was 07-08 when he became the best player in the league.

BTW - it was 25 straight. And it would have been 29 if Gooden hadn't made one of two FT's. Massive talent. But Tim would have calmed his guys down and gotten them open shots, and he wouldn't have had to make 25 straight. TBH, IMO, IIRC. :D

[BillMc]

The PUBLIC perception? Nope. LeBron was second in the MVP voting the previous season. You're clearly more perceptive than the "public", and that's just one more example. That series showed that he had the ability to dig deep and come through under pressure. Personally, I think he learned a lot from the Finals loss, and came back thinking more about team and defense the next year - because those are the things that made the Spurs better than the Cavs. It's a debate that can never be won, but for me it was 07-08 when he became the best player in the league.

BTW - it was 25 straight. And it would have been 29 if Gooden hadn't made one of two FT's. Massive talent. But Tim would have calmed his guys down and gotten them open shots, and he wouldn't have had to make 25 straight. TBH, IMO, IIRC. :D

Cheers man. Your memory is clearly a lot better than mine. I didn't realize he'd done so well in the MVP vote the year before.

And your spot on about Timmy not needing to do 25 straig. And what LBJ learned in the Finals. No way he gets through the KG Celtics without first facing the fires of Timmy's Spurs. :toast

[Strategic]

Kyrie doesn't go down and the Cavs walk all over the Warriors in 2015.

[Cry Havoc]

The PUBLIC perception? Nope. LeBron was second in the MVP voting the previous season. You're clearly more perceptive than the "public", and that's just one more example. That series showed that he had the ability to dig deep and come through under pressure. Personally, I think he learned a lot from the Finals loss, and came back thinking more about team and defense the next year - because those are the things that made the Spurs better than the Cavs. It's a debate that can never be won, but for me it was 07-08 when he became the best player in the league.

BTW - it was 25 straight. And it would have been 29 if Gooden hadn't made one of two FT's. Massive talent. But Tim would have calmed his guys down and gotten them open shots, and he wouldn't have had to make 25 straight. TBH, IMO, IIRC. :D

Well, public perception was such that LeBron would be unable to win a ring in his career. That was probably the main thing holding him back from the unequivocal #1 spot. People still thought Kobe was better at that point because ringz.

[resistanze]

Gtfo tbh,Lebronze is a joke,been hiding out in the East avoiding any real competition, resting his sorry ass even then.Real warriors wanna do battle with the other best player's in the league on a constant basis,they thrive off that elite competition.
Seriously you gonna slob a player whose goto move is an offensive foul ?!? (His retarded bully back down to the basket on a smaller player) smdh



Split G GS MP FG FGA 3P 3PA FT FTA ORB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS FG% 3P% FT% TS% USG% ORtg DRtg MP PTS TRB AST
Eastern 650 649 25283 6293 12674 848 2587 4183 5588 755 4619 4472 1075 499 2203 1199 17617 .497 .328 .749 .582 31.9 116 102 38.9 27.1 7.1 6.9
Western 366 366 14270 3670 7325 551 1512 2068 2832 478 2676 2594 622 291 1224 691 9959 .501 .364 .730 .581 31.7 116 105 39.0 27.2 7.3 7.1

Can we put this myth to bed? His stats are better against the West.

If you want to argue LeBron would be playing more often against 'superior' competition in the West, then you have to assume LeBron would be also playing on a better team, since he's in the West. You can't say he'd struggle against the Western Conference with Lebron playing on a Eastern Conference team as your basis.

[GSH]

Well, public perception was such that LeBron would be unable to win a ring in his career. That was probably the main thing holding him back from the unequivocal #1 spot. People still thought Kobe was better at that point because ringz.


Well, I said there's no winning the debate, one way or the other. Once you get up into the top 2-3-4, it's usually hard to call "best". You really think LeBron was the best all-around player in the league by 06-07?

How about 05-06, when he was second to Kobe in the MVP voting? (And we all know that MVP voting isn't the same thing as best player in the league.) Do you think LeBron was already a more complete player than Kobe by his third season? I'm not going to argue, I just wonder if you think that.

I will say that I think a LOT of people here under-rate Kobe, because of the rivalry and/or because of personal stuff. Call him a ball hog, or a chucker, or whatever, he was a superb offensive player. What most people here seem to refuse to recognize is that he was also a really good defender. Not Bowen or Kawhi caliber, maybe, but very good. He was on the All-Defensive Team nearly every year he played, and that was back when it was picked by the head coaches around the league. You can make an All-Star team being a ball hog. But the coaches don't pick you for All-Defensive Team unless you play defense.

[Cry Havoc]

Well, I said there's no winning the debate, one way or the other. Once you get up into the top 2-3-4, it's usually hard to call "best". You really think LeBron was the best all-around player in the league by 06-07?

How about 05-06, when he was second to Kobe in the MVP voting? (And we all know that MVP voting isn't the same thing as best player in the league.) Do you think LeBron was already a more complete player than Kobe by his third season? I'm not going to argue, I just wonder if you think that.

I will say that I think a LOT of people here under-rate Kobe, because of the rivalry and/or because of personal stuff. Call him a ball hog, or a chucker, or whatever, he was a superb offensive player. What most people here seem to refuse to recognize is that he was also a really good defender. Not Bowen or Kawhi caliber, maybe, but very good. He was on the All-Defensive Team nearly every year he played, and that was back when it was picked by the head coaches around the league. You can make an All-Star team being a ball hog. But the coaches don't pick you for All-Defensive Team unless you play defense.

It's tough to remember that far back without just using stats as a basis for justifying my opinion, but I do know that Kobe was vastly overrated by being put on a lot of those teams. He was a slightly less gambling version of Westbrook on D. Now obviously Kobe's BBIQ is a couple echelons above RW, but his prowess as a defensive wizard largely stemmed from a very good 2-3 year stint he had in his prime. After that, he fell off precipitously.

I do know that from Day 1, LeBron came into the league with a much more balanced attack than Kobe ever had, and until his 2nd or 3rd season with Miami he was a ferocious defender, far and away above what Kobe was capable of even at his peak.

That said, you could make a case for LeBron. 31, 7, and 6.6 that season. Kobe's numbers were fantastic too but not outright superior to LeBron.

[NameLess Scrub]

Howard should have won the MVP when Rose won. He should have built on that development also.. but sadly never did.

[GSH]

It's tough to remember that far back without just using stats as a basis for justifying my opinion, but I do know that Kobe was vastly overrated by being put on a lot of those teams. He was a slightly less gambling version of Westbrook on D. Now obviously Kobe's BBIQ is a couple echelons above RW, but his prowess as a defensive wizard largely stemmed from a very good 2-3 year stint he had in his prime. After that, he fell off precipitously.

I do know that from Day 1, LeBron came into the league with a much more balanced attack than Kobe ever had, and until his 2nd or 3rd season with Miami he was a ferocious defender, far and away above what Kobe was capable of even at his peak.

That said, you could make a case for LeBron. 31, 7, and 6.6 that season. Kobe's numbers were fantastic too but not outright superior to LeBron.


Okay. We see Kobe a little differently, but that's understandable.

Pretty close on LeBron. From the first season, when LeBron put the Cavs within 1 game of making the playoffs, I knew he was more than just hype. Well, that and watching him play. Admittedly, it was the shit Eastern Conference playoffs, and the 8th seed had a losing record. But it was obvious he was different than any rookie I'd seen since Duncan.

But I STILL think Duncan is under-rated, because of the way he played, and the way the team played. Other than blocks, defense is almost left out of the equation when people start comparing basketball players. Sometimes people talk about it, but they almost always come down to offense. And a guy standing still and putting an 18-footer off the glass is just not very exciting or memorable. Groundhog Day.

[pookenstein]

Absolutely right. After the Spurs totally dismantled the Cavs in the Finals, Tim was nice enough to send LeBron a note telling him that it was going to be his league "in a little while". It was a gesture. He wasn't endorsing 'Bron as the best player in the league at that moment. He was trying to make him feel better about getting curb-stomped. But LeBron was one of the 3 best in the league.

Nowitzki won the MVP that year, because he was the best player on a team that won 67 games. Nash was second because... whatever. Numbers 3,4, and 5 were Kobe, Tim, and LeBron. Those were the three best players in the league.

For the record, the Spurs swept the '07 Finals because of defense. They held the series to something like an 83 Pace, and limited the Cavs to just over 80 PPG. Tim was a defensive BEAST that whole year, not just in the playoffs. Bowen was the best perimeter defender, but Tim ruled the paint. (LeBron was a respectable defender, but he clearly started paying more attention to it after that series.) The ONLY weak spot in Tim's game was that he shot around 63% from the FT line.

One thing the stats can never show is that by 06-07, everyone had concluded that the only way to defend Tim was to deny him the ball. He was wrestling and clawing for position on every play, and when the ball was on his side of the floor, it wasn't uncommon for them to slide another defender over and double him off the ball. That practice had a lot to do with his teammates getting wide open looks. And when he did get the ball in the post, he often waited for the double team so that he could pass out of it. Usually, though, it was the next pass that found someone totally open for a shot. If the NBA gave hockey assists, a lot of people might have more respect for just how valuable Tim really was.

MVP voting is always biased toward PPG, and most fans only notice the guys who dribble and shoot. But the best, most complete player in the league that year? I still say it was Tim. That's no slight to how good LeBron was by then.

I think LBJ just finished holding a press conference when Tim entered the room and told James it'll be his league in a little while.

IGY6UamVRSU
:bobo

[Cry Havoc]

Okay. We see Kobe a little differently, but that's understandable.

Pretty close on LeBron. From the first season, when LeBron put the Cavs within 1 game of making the playoffs, I knew he was more than just hype. Well, that and watching him play. Admittedly, it was the shit Eastern Conference playoffs, and the 8th seed had a losing record. But it was obvious he was different than any rookie I'd seen since Duncan.

But I STILL think Duncan is under-rated, because of the way he played, and the way the team played. Other than blocks, defense is almost left out of the equation when people start comparing basketball players. Sometimes people talk about it, but they almost always come down to offense. And a guy standing still and putting an 18-footer off the glass is just not very exciting or memorable. Groundhog Day.

I have Duncan as my 3rd best player of all-time, so I'm on board with you about him being underrated. Only Jordan is clearly above him -- Kareem is debatable but I'd give the slight nod to Jabbar... not by much though.

LeBron IMO is already top 5 and passed Kobe on the GOAT list a long time ago. I could even see an argument for putting him 4th now -- Wilt played in a different era, and Magic/Bird both only had 13 seasons of play. LeBron still seems to be in his prime, if not just barely out of it, which is terrifying.

[baseline bum]

Okay. We see Kobe a little differently, but that's understandable.

Pretty close on LeBron. From the first season, when LeBron put the Cavs within 1 game of making the playoffs, I knew he was more than just hype. Well, that and watching him play. Admittedly, it was the shit Eastern Conference playoffs, and the 8th seed had a losing record. But it was obvious he was different than any rookie I'd seen since Duncan.

But I STILL think Duncan is under-rated, because of the way he played, and the way the team played. Other than blocks, defense is almost left out of the equation when people start comparing basketball players. Sometimes people talk about it, but they almost always come down to offense. And a guy standing still and putting an 18-footer off the glass is just not very exciting or memorable. Groundhog Day.

I knew LeBron was a Hall of Famer that first time ESPN broadcast one of his high school games. I know that sounds ridiculous to say but his teammates were not good players at all and he was still getting them great shots and just destroying Oak Hill Academy, one of the ultra elite HS basketball programs. LeBron is the only player younger than say a college junior I ever saw and thought this guy is a guaranteed HOF player. I remember in 2003 when everyone here was saying he was overrated and would flame out and I kept thinking have you actually seen this guy?

I agree 07 Duncan is very underrated, but by then the team was good enough that it was better for him to not be LeBron (like he was in 99-05), to not be that super high usage guy every play has to revolve around. And while I believe he could have absolutely been that kind of player and racking up MVPs until 08, it's still a hypothetical. LeBron was actually doing it, so I have to give him the nod by 07 as the best player in the league.

I think Kobe is an amazing player, but quite overrated. He got that clutch reputation in the first three peat because he got to be the closer after Shaq did the heavy lifting the first three quarters. When you gave Kobe the kind of supporting cast where he had to be alpha for 48 minutes he couldn't deliver the kind of results LeBron did. And Kobe's supporting cast in the mid 2000s was significantly better than what LeBron had before going to Miami. I still think Kobe is the second best 2-guard I have seen (though Prime Wade was the second best if we rank by peak play IMO), but I don't think he belongs in the conversation with LeBron. I still think the most impressive thing I have ever seen James do was dragging that horrible 2009 Cavs supporting cast to 66 wins in a conference with very strong Boston and Orlando teams. Kobe never did anything like that when his only allstar level teammate was Odom, much less when his entire team was crap that would be out of the league in a couple of years.

[TD 21]

'08. Even though Paul deserved the MVP and lost primarily because the media decided to give Bryant a lifetime achievement award, that was the season that James not only made a quantum leap, but it was clear that Duncan was beginning to decline (though he never rebounded better and was still a top few player).

James had a legit case in '06, '11 and '14, but I don't think he's ever lost in egregious fashion. Howard deserved it over Rose in '11 and Durant and Curry, were rightful winners in '14, '15 and '16, respectively.

[skulls138]

If LBJ is the best player, and he is, the NBA sucks. He is definitely the one to take Duncans place as best player but if those two could always be at their peak, Duncan would win every year, all things being equal. Ive seen too many times Lebron not show up when it matters most. But thats all his own making with the extra pressure added caused by his own boasting and predicting before doing a damn thing. Duncan sees flying under the radar as an edge to take advantage of. Lebron also has terrible fundamentals.

[Cry Havoc]

If LBJ is the best player, and he is, the NBA sucks. He is definitely the one to take Duncans place as best player but if those two could always be at their peak, Duncan would win every year, all things being equal. Ive seen too many times Lebron not show up when it matters most. But thats all his own making with the extra pressure added caused by his own boasting and predicting before doing a damn thing. Duncan sees flying under the radar as an edge to take advantage of. Lebron also has terrible fundamentals.

:lmao

So laughably silly that it's not worth reading.