Patty Mills. A master conductor of the Spurs' offense.

[midnightpulp]

Apologize for the crude recording method, but I didn't feel like dicking around with capture software for this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Jl6-Xzsl4

- First play. Dribbles it up and passes it off to LMA.

- Second play. Dribble-hand off to Kawhi.

- Third play. Dribbles it up and passes it off to Manu.

- Fourth play. Dribbles it up and passes it off to Lee.

- Fifth play. Same as the third.

At no time from these dead ball situations did House run anything. He didn't penetrate, probe, nor playmake. Just passed it off and Reggie Miller'd. Who's doing the playmaking? Mostly Manu. And it's Manu who usually runs point when House is on the floor. Notice Pop didn't keep D-League on the floor when he made the early sub. Now why do you think that is?

Hopefully a clear, unbiased video can finally illustrate why you can't just sub in House for Parker straight up. Other lineup changes would need to be made, changes that would effectively kill the second unit. I chastise Danny a lot on here, but yeah, removing a top tier wing defender from the SL to the bench where he can guard players like Denzel Valentine and Rodney McGruder instead of expending most of his energy on the Klays and Hardens of the league is a fantastic idea :tu

That said, I like House. But he fits a specific role. And it's a role he's damn fine at.

[vander]

IMO starting Mills would be win/win/win:

all he has to do is feed Aldridge/Gasol/Leonard in the post.
his "advanced" stats will get worse going against the opposing starters, making him cheaper to re-sign, and shutting up the posters that compare his stats directly to Parkers
Parker will destroy other teams' 2nd string PGs, hopefully... maybe...

[Chinook]

Can't ride with that logic. The Spurs cannot just run post-ups against most teams. They're really not hard to defend, and only Pau seems like he knows how to handle them (though the Wolves did get a steal on him last night).

Mills' stats will get worse because the team would get worse. I'm not sure I like that trade-off.

Parker/Manu/Simmons/Lee/Dedmon is a horrible lineup.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

The Spurs have a better net rating with the current starting 5, than with Mills in place of Parker ( 10.0 in 343 mins to 5.9 in 42 minutes ), so while it looks better on paper, as Patty provides better spacing, it does not seem to translate on the court. There's always noise, especially with small sample sizes of course - Parker with the bench unit is an impossible -104.1 net rating :lol - but for the time being there's no proof switching Patty and Parker would be an overall improvement.

[Kidd K]

Parker's playmaking has been underrated for awhile around here. I remember in one of the finals his shot was off but his playmaking was really good and people here were shitting on him for having a bad game but when you actually pay attention to the stuff these guys do when they aren't shooting the ball you can see who's really valuable.

Now Parker's certainly fallen off since then. . .but yeah I agree, Mills is not "a replacement" for Parker at all. He's an undersized SG, and that's fine. To replace Parker we would need to draft, trade, or check free agency.

[dabom]

Hopefully Porker doesn't happen a 4th straight year. :lol

[DPG21920]

Not totally related, but an interesting side note in Zach Lowe's Pelicans article:


The Pelicans could pivot to guys like Patty Mills, Shaun Livingston, Raymond Felton, and other stop-gaps, though Mills will be expensive. The league has figured out how good he is

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18496598/zach-lowe-anthony-davis-jrue-holiday-new-orleans-pelicans-nba

[picnroll]

Next year there are going to be a ton of good quality PGs drafted. That will free up a number of decent backup PGs.

Mills will never be a really decent starting PG and will be too expensive in all likelihood to keep as a backup who doesn't really create much for others. Can't live forever as Manu as the true backup PG.

[TheGreatYacht]

Not totally related, but an interesting side note in Zach Lowe's Pelicans article:



http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18496598/zach-lowe-anthony-davis-jrue-holiday-new-orleans-pelicans-nba
I would gladly S&T the Microwave for Tim Frazier

[ElNono]

I think he'll get paid but that might not be too bad for the Spurs.

Perhaps they can pick up a Langston Galloway to replace him, and that's one less guy that can torch Porker in the next 4-5 years he plans to play for the Spurs, tbh...

[DAF86]

Apologize for the crude recording method, but I didn't feel like dicking around with capture software for this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Jl6-Xzsl4

- First play. Dribbles it up and passes it off to LMA.

- Second play. Dribble-hand off to Kawhi.

- Third play. Dribbles it up and passes it off to Manu.

- Fourth play. Dribbles it up and passes it off to Lee.

- Fifth play. Same as the third.

At no time from these dead ball situations did House run anything. He didn't penetrate, probe, nor playmake. Just passed it off and Reggie Miller'd. Who's doing the playmaking? Mostly Manu. And it's Manu who usually runs point when House is on the floor. Notice Pop didn't keep D-League on the floor when he made the early sub. Now why do you think that is?

Hopefully a clear, unbiased video can finally illustrate why you can't just sub in House for Parker straight up. Other lineup changes would need to be made, changes that would effectively kill the second unit. I chastise Danny a lot on here, but yeah, removing a top tier wing defender from the SL to the bench where he can guard players like Denzel Valentine and Rodney McGruder instead of expending most of his energy on the Klays and Hardens of the league is a fantastic idea :tu

That said, I like House. But he fits a specific role. And it's a role he's damn fine at.

What you don't seem to get is that most of us are perfectly cool with the PG staying out of Kawhi and Aldridge's way and be a 3 pt threat.

I agree, though, that it wouldn't make much sense, with this current roster, to switch Tony and Patty's roles; but I do want Pop to give the guy that is having the best performance on the night the most minutes. He has done some of that this season but not to the point I would like, which is: If Patty is having a good game and Tony is having one of those nights in which he contributes nothing at all, I want Patty to get 30 (or more) minutes and Parker around 18.

[Brazil]

What you don't seem to get is that most of us are perfectly cool with the PG staying out of Kawhi and Aldridge's way and be a 3 pt threat.

I agree, though, that it wouldn't make much sense, with this current roster, to switch Tony and Patty's roles; but I do want Pop to give the guy that is having the best performance on the night the most minutes. He has done some of that this season but not to the point I would like, which is: If Patty is having a good game and Tony is having one of those nights in which he contributes nothing at all, I want Patty to get 30 (or more) minutes and Parker around 18.

well it seems that this is happening tbh... on top of that there are a lot of games where Patty is playing the 4th quarter which is fine tbh

[Sfan]

Apologize for the crude recording method, but I didn't feel like dicking around with capture software for this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Jl6-Xzsl4

- First play. Dribbles it up and passes it off to LMA.

- Second play. Dribble-hand off to Kawhi.

- Third play. Dribbles it up and passes it off to Manu.

- Fourth play. Dribbles it up and passes it off to Lee.

- Fifth play. Same as the third.

At no time from these dead ball situations did House run anything. He didn't penetrate, probe, nor playmake. Just passed it off and Reggie Miller'd. Who's doing the playmaking? Mostly Manu. And it's Manu who usually runs point when House is on the floor. Notice Pop didn't keep D-League on the floor when he made the early sub. Now why do you think that is?

Hopefully a clear, unbiased video can finally illustrate why you can't just sub in House for Parker straight up. Other lineup changes would need to be made, changes that would effectively kill the second unit. I chastise Danny a lot on here, but yeah, removing a top tier wing defender from the SL to the bench where he can guard players like Denzel Valentine and Rodney McGruder instead of expending most of his energy on the Klays and Hardens of the league is a fantastic idea :tu

That said, I like House. But he fits a specific role. And it's a role he's damn fine at.

[Sfan]

Curious given that of the 5 plays you highlighted how many would be set plays that POP wants him to do what he did or are they all broken plays?

[Chinook]

Not totally related, but an interesting side note in Zach Lowe's Pelicans article:



http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18496598/zach-lowe-anthony-davis-jrue-holiday-new-orleans-pelicans-nba

Too bad Forbes appears to have zero athleticism. I can't even hope for him to get that role. Replacing Mills with another small two really isn't necessary, though. Just get a dynamic scorer like Josh Hart to put next to Murray and run them with Simmons/Anderson, Bertans and Dedmon/Gasol.

[dabom]

Forbes is a cancer times 100. Shouldn't even have been on the Spurs.

[SAGirl]

Too bad Forbes appears to have zero athleticism. I can't even hope for him to get that role. Replacing Mills with another small two really isn't necessary, though. Just get a dynamic scorer like Josh Hart to put next to Murray and run them with Simmons/Anderson, Bertans and Dedmon/Gasol.
I have
Thought about Forbes a lot bc at times I have watched him (outside of the second or two he has gotten on the NBA)... by this I mean in the summer, over in preseason and the occasional dleague game... he has shown he's a very good shooter and capable scorer sort of like Neal.. He's not just a spot up guy... but the problem is that he's at least a couple of inches short and to be honest, more like 4 to be a true wing... I have read Pop is molding him in Patty's image but Patty, aside from a super quick shot is very fast. He sprints in transition with the ball and most players have trouble catching up to him, he gets a ton of good looks from cuts even with opponents knowing his game bc he's quick as a cat, etc.... He's able to do some things due to his high motor and energy.... Forbes aside of shooting hasn't shown that high motor and quickness off the balk or with his dribble...

I suppose we will see more of him next season... on whether POP's project of him at the PG spot is viable or not but so far, he hasn't looked good. Very, very limited sample in the NBA agreed, but even in garbage time he looks out of his depth. This is just an evaluation of a guy as a role player mind you.... in case guys were wondering if I had realistic expectations or not.

[midnightpulp]

Curious given that of the 5 plays you highlighted how many would be set plays that POP wants him to do what he did or are they all broken plays?

These clips weren't selectively chosen. I just filmed his dead ball possessions from the 1st quarter of last night's game. This is how Patty "runs" PG. Again, he's an off-ball shooting guard basically and needs someone like Manu to actually run the offense.

People are going to have to pick a lane in this debate. You want House starting/more minutes=less playing time for Green and the gutting of our very effective 2nd unit. I'm not opposed to bringing in Patty when Parker is obviously terrible, but giving Patty more minutes wholesale would require some big lineup tweaks.

[cd021]

Not totally related, but an interesting side note in Zach Lowe's Pelicans article:



http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/18496598/zach-lowe-anthony-davis-jrue-holiday-new-orleans-pelicans-nba

Hope some team throws money at Iggy and Livingston like Phily did for Manu just to fuck with the Warriors

Livingston a three year $36 million deal
Iggy 2 years $28 million

:lol

[pookenstein]

Just get a dynamic scorer like Josh Hart to put next to Murray and run them with Simmons/Anderson, Bertans and Dedmon/Gasol.

How about Jimmer? :lol

[Sfan]

These clips weren't selectively chosen. I just filmed his dead ball possessions from the 1st quarter of last night's game. This is how Patty "runs" PG. Again, he's an off-ball shooting guard basically and needs someone like Manu to actually run the offense.

People are going to have to pick a lane in this debate. You want House starting/more minutes=less playing time for Green and the gutting of our very effective 2nd unit. I'm not opposed to bringing in Patty when Parker is obviously terrible, but giving Patty more minutes wholesale would require some big lineup tweaks.

What I meant was I assume the way Patty brings the ball down the court then passing off is exactly what POP wants him to do.

[DAF86]

These clips weren't selectively chosen. I just filmed his dead ball possessions from the 1st quarter of last night's game. This is how Patty "runs" PG. Again, he's an off-ball shooting guard basically and needs someone like Manu to actually run the offense.

People are going to have to pick a lane in this debate. You want House starting/more minutes=less playing time for Green and the gutting of our very effective 2nd unit. I'm not opposed to bringing in Patty when Parker is obviously terrible, but giving Patty more minutes wholesale would require some big lineup tweaks.

No. We can have Patty and Green and run the offense through Kawhi, LA and, to a lesser extent, Pau.

[midnightpulp]

No. We can have Patty and Green and run the offense through Kawhi, LA and, to a lesser extent, Pau.

LMA is an offensive black hole. You can't really run the offense through him. Pau is obviously too far removed from his prime to run an offense. The only option is Leonard, who is already tasked with enough offensive and defensive load to effectively take up the ball dominance required of perimeter playmakers. He's also just an okay playmaker/ball handler.

Stats confirm, too. Mills for Parker straight up in the SL is a terrible unit.

http://www.82games.com/1617/1617SAS2.HTM

-13 net rating and they shoot .390 from the floor. :lol

[DAF86]

LMA is an offensive black hole. You can't really run the offense through him. Pau is obviously too far removed from his prime to run an offense. The only option is Leonard, who is already tasked with enough offensive and defensive load to effectively take up the ball dominance required of perimeter playmakers. He's also just an okay playmaker/ball handler.

Stats confirm, too. Mills for Parker straight up in the SL is a terrible unit.

http://www.82games.com/1617/1617SAS2.HTM

-13 net rating and they shoot .390 from the floor. :lol

To finish games I want Kawhi and LA getting all the touches while having guys that can shoot (preferably 3s) around them. Tony just isn't that guy in most cases.

[TheGreatYacht]

Fap86, like in the soccer forum, will never give credit to Parker/Ronaldo

Its the Manu/Messi fanboyism in his blood

[midnightpulp]

To finish games I want Kawhi and LA getting all the touches while having guys that can shoot (preferably 3s) around them. Tony just isn't that guy in most cases.

I don't necessarily have a problem with that (though Mills will be relentlessly targeted on defense. Yes, he's a worse defender than Parker). And by "finishing games," I mean like last 2 minutes of a close game in which Parker was playing badly.

The Mills argument usually centers around him starting/replacing Parker full stop. That is a stupid idea.

[DAF86]

I don't necessarily have a problem with that (though Mills will be relentlessly targeted on defense. Yes, he's a worse defender than Parker). And by "finishing games," I mean like last 2 minutes of a close game in which Parker was playing badly.

The Mills argument usually centers around him starting/replacing Parker full stop. That is a stupid idea.

Do you have a problem with Patty getting 30 minutes when he's playing better than Tony?

[DAF86]

Fap86, like in the soccer forum, will never give credit to Parker/Ronaldo

Its the Manu/Messi fanboyism in his blood


Parker has been awesome this season.

Just of the top of my head, tbh.

[midnightpulp]

Do you have a problem with Patty getting 30 minutes when he's playing better than Tony?

You realize when Patty plays well, Green is not on the floor, right?

That's my whole argument. Patty for Tony straight up doesn't work for major minutes. You want more Patty, means more Manu/Fathead/. Too many people on here think Patty is just plug-and-play. No. He needs a specific lineup.

If Manu isn't in Turnobili mode, I have no problem with that.

[DAF86]

You realize when Patty plays well, Green is not on the floor, right?

That's my whole argument. Patty for Tony straight up doesn't work for major minutes. You want more Patty, means more Manu/Fathead/. Too many people on here think Patty is just plug-and-play. No. He needs a specific lineup.

If Manu isn't in Turnobili mode, I have no problem with that.

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/id/400899722
http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/id/400899656
http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/id/400899896
http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/id/400899761

Here are just some of the games I remember of Patty and Green sharing the floor just fine, tbh.

When Patty is playing well, there's no problem with playing Patty and Green at the same time for the last 4 minutes of each half, tbh.

[140]

This just proves that Patty actually follows Pops orders (unlike other PGs on the team...:lol)

If he was actually asked to run the offense he'd do just fine tbh

[Sfan]

This just proves that Patty actually follows Pops orders (unlike other PGs on the team...:lol)

If he was actually asked to run the offense he'd do just fine tbh

Agree that was my point. I sense Patty plays to his skill set and POP designs his plays that way.

[Brazil]

This just proves that Patty actually follows Pops orders (unlike other PGs on the team...:lol)

If he was actually asked to run the offense he'd do just fine tbh

:lol you mean dude is a good ball handler and playmaker but Pop and him just choose to not play of his strength ? :lmao

[Brazil]

he'd do just fine :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

Too bad Forbes appears to have zero athleticism. I can't even hope for him to get that role. Replacing Mills with another small two really isn't necessary, though. Just get a dynamic scorer like Josh Hart to put next to Murray and run them with Simmons/Anderson, Bertans and Dedmon/Gasol.

Simmons is most likely gone along w/ Patty b/c he's going to get a Solomon Hill type contract, tbh.:lol

I would cut Forbes & sign Hollis Thompson who's a big guard that plays passable defense against wings. Assuming Pau opt-in & PATFO use the cap space to re-sign Dedmon they would only be able to target minimum salary guys to replace Patty/Manu/Simmons. Besides Thompson, I would target Ben McLemore if he's willing to sign for the minimum (Lee might get the RE) otherwise get GPII & your boy Weber.

Pau/Porker are going to be completely TOSB next season so might as well get the youth movement started early & let Porker mentor the young guards.

[TD 21]

Simmons is most likely gone along w/ Patty b/c he's going to get a Solomon Hill type contract, tbh.:lol

I would cut Forbes & sign Hollis Thompson who's a big guard that plays passable defense against wings. Assuming Pau opt-in & PATFO use the cap space to re-sign Dedmon they would only be able to target minimum salary guys to replace Patty/Manu/Simmons. Besides Thompson, I would target Ben McLemore if he's willing to sign for the minimum (Lee might get the RE) otherwise get GPII & your boy Weber.

Pau/Porker are going to be completely TOSB next season so might as well get the youth movement started early & let Porker mentor the young guards.

I doubt Mills is gone or Simmons signs a Hill type contract. I think there's a good chance he's gone, but not for that much, as Hill was (wrongly) viewed as a starter.

Thompson is a small forward and they could just sign him with the open roster spot.

As bad as he's been, there's no chance McLemore signs for the minimum. Word is teams are still intrigued with him, probably chalking his struggles more up to the Kings dysfunction than his own ineptitude. He's got a qualifying offer of about $5.38M and if he's not traded by the deadline, they'll probably exercise it and make him restricted.

Why would they sign both Payton and Weber? They already have a point guard with intriguing defensive potential, that can't shoot.

[Kawhitstorm]

Why would they sign both Payton and Weber? They already have a point guard with intriguing defensive potential, that can't shoot.

GPII has the strength/length to play the 2-guard like Avery Bradley & Simmons isn't much of a shooter either so you aren't losing much in that department.

Weber is an intriguing 3rd string PG who has improved his shooting & can be a mid 30s three point shooter like CoJo.

As long as the second unit isn't posting up, they can use their athleticism to score in transition which should make up for their lack of shooting especially since Murray/GPII are elite rebounders for their position so they can just grab the board & attack before the defense is set like WestBrick. Bertans can also play the 4 to provide shooting if that's an issue.

You basically have two designated shooters in this line-up:

Dedmon
Bertans
Thompson
GPII
Murray

You could also mix & match by throwing in Kawhi/Danny w/ the second unit while Murray can play w/ the starters in place of Porker.

[TD 21]

GPII has the strength/length to play the 2-guard like Avery Bradley & Simmons isn't much of a shooter either so you aren't losing much in that department.

Weber is an intriguing 3rd string PG who has improved his shooting & can be a mid 30s three point shooter like CoJo.

As long as the second unit isn't posting up, they can use their athleticism to score in transition which should make up for their lack of shooting especially since Murray/GPII are elite rebounders for their position so they can just grab the board & attack before the defense is set like WestBrick. Bertans can also play the 4 to provide shooting if that's an issue.

You basically have two designated shooters in this line-up:

Dedmon
Bertans
Thompson
GPII
Murray

You could also mix & match by throwing in Kawhi/Danny w/ the second unit while Murray can play w/ the starters in place of Porker.

That's not exactly a second unit fit for an elite team.

Dedmon is probably 50/50 to be re-signed, but if he is, I could see a second unit of: Bertans, Anderson, Dedmon, Teodosic, Mills.

[140]

:lol you mean dude is a good ball handler and playmaker but Pop and him just choose to not play of his strength ? :lmao
Don't act like Porker hasn't been sabotaging him for years behind the scenes :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

That's not exactly a second unit fit for an elite team.

Good luck being an "elite team" w/ an even older version of Pau/Porker.:lol (Might as well re-sign Manu & go all-in)


Dedmon is probably 50/50 to be re-signed, but if he is, I could see a second unit of: Bertans, Anderson, Dedmon, Teodosic, Mills.

There is no cap space to sign Dedmon & Teodosic unless they are willing to sign for WAY below market price i.e. Room Exception.

[TD 21]

Good luck being an "elite team" w/ an even older version of Pau/Porker.:lol (Might as well re-sign Manu & go all-in)



There is no cap space to sign Dedmon & Teodosic unless they are willing to sign for WAY below market price i.e. Room Exception.

I meant, the intent of the organization is to maintain that status as long as possible.

The Spurs routinely have gotten role players signed for (significantly) less than the masses believe they'll sign for. :wakeup

[SAGirl]

That's not exactly a second unit fit for an elite team.

Dedmon is probably 50/50 to be re-signed, but if he is, I could see a second unit of: Bertans, Anderson, Dedmon, Teodosic, Mills.
I
am curious TD 21... I have seen you mention Teodosic a lot (since the summer). What makes you think he's a candidate to join the Spurs? I know nothing of his contract situation, etc.

[TD 21]

I
am curious TD 21... I have seen you mention Teodosic a lot (since the summer). What makes you think he's a candidate to join the Spurs? I know nothing of his contract situation, etc.

Last summer, he said he wants to go to the NBA and sign with the Spurs or Jazz. The Jazz will likely re-sign Hill and won't have a backcourt need (even if Burks is moved), plus they probably have even less financial flexibility than the Spurs.

The Spurs will probably have a need for a Ginobili replacement. I can see them selling him on roughly 20 mpg, to be the creator on the 2nd unit, on a 1 year contract or a 2 year contract with a player option for the 2nd season, so that he has a chance to prove himself in the NBA and then cash in for one significant contract before he gets too old.

[Brazil]

Don't act like Porker hasn't been sabotaging him for years behind the scenes :lol

Must be Parker fault he cannot dribble without looking the ball :lol

[tholdren]

Parker/Manu/Simmons/Lee/Dedmon is a horrible lineup.

It's horrible from a defensive lineup. Offensively it would be interesting. Everyone there is a hustle player save parker, which would be fun against the typical NBA defense.