Salary Cap Mid-Season Write-Up: NBA

[DPG21920]

Spurs are mentioned and I highlighted that part below. It's not a crazy in-depth article but nice enough read at a high level and with free agency approaching it might shed light on players being moved.


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San Antonio
Never discount the Spurs when it comes to creating cap space.

The Spurs have entered July the past two years with little room, but ended up signing LaMarcus Aldrige and Pau Gasol.

San Antonio has $93 million in guaranteed contracts, including the player options of Gasol, David Lee and Dewayne Dedmon. That total does not include the cap holds of Manu Ginobili, Patty Mills and restricted free agent Jonathon Simmons.

[GSH]

Even though I don't have confidence in Pau's defense, he was one hell of a pickup with the cap space the Spurs had to work with. Dedmon was an unlooked-for bargain. And the Spurs did a very good job of getting the dominos to fall in order, so that it all worked. Considering their needs, and what they had to work with, it was an A+ job this offseason. That doesn't happen by accident.

[cd021]

Have a sneaking suspicion that George Hill and Patty Mills are going to be our backup back court, with Dedmon as our starting center.

It's not impossible but not entirely likely. If Gasol and Dedmon end up opting out. Spurs could sign Hill (4 years, $48 million) and Dedmon(4 years, $32 million) and resign Mills (4 years, $44 million) along with potentially bringing over Milutinov. This would assume that Manu retires or resigns for cheap, and the Spurs let Simmons walk.


Parker-Mills-Murray
Green-Hill
Leonard-Bertans
Aldridge-Anderson
Dedmon-Lee-Milutinov

[GSH]

Have a sneaking suspicion that George Hill and Patty Mills are going to be our backup back court, with Dedmon as our starting center.

It's not impossible but not entirely likely. If Gasol and Dedmon end up opting out. Spurs could sign Hill (4 years, $48 million) and Dedmon(4 years, $32 million) and resign Mills (4 years, $44 million) along with potentially bringing over Milutinov. This would assume that Manu retires or resigns for cheap, and the Spurs let Simmons walk.



With Manu's salary this season, don't they slap an enormous cap hold on the Spurs next season? Seems like they have some special provisions for that, but it's way back in the memory banks.

I thought Pau would probably exercise his option, but with the cap taking another big jump, someone may come shopping. I expect at least one of Pau/Dedmon to be with the team next year. Wouldn't surprise me if it's both. I don't expect Simmons to be anywhere else, unless someone like the Pistons goes nuts like they did with Boban.

If Patty has a strong second half, and a good playoff performance, he will probably get offered more than that 4/44 you're thinking. It will be interesting to see if he will agree to sign, without being a starter.

[apalisoc_9]

Have a sneaking suspicion that George Hill and Patty Mills are going to be our backup back court, with Dedmon as our starting center.

It's not impossible but not entirely likely. If Gasol and Dedmon end up opting out. Spurs could sign Hill (4 years, $48 million) and Dedmon(4 years, $32 million) and resign Mills (4 years, $44 million) along with potentially bringing over Milutinov. This would assume that Manu retires or resigns for cheap, and the Spurs let Simmons walk.


Parker-Mills-Murray
Green-Hill
Leonard-Bertans
Aldridge-Anderson
Dedmon-Lee-Milutinov

Why would Hill sign for 12 a year when he can get significantly more money with Utah or anywhere else? PATFO won't sign two PG's over 10 million while starting parker. Hill won't be signing anywhere as a bench guy. He's far too good for that.

Dedmon and Lee are most likely going to opt out, considering he's been playing over his salary. Gasol, is a huge question mark. If Manu retires, you can bet the spurs are going to aggressively look for a playmaker since Mills isnt one.

I'm thinking the order of priority fpr next year of Manu retires (most likely)

Get a guard that can penetrate
if they find someone for a good price, attempt to re-sign dedmon and Lee
If that plan goes according to plan, resign mills.

Mills is probably going to be the least of their priorities since shooters are easier to find and easier to plug into teams.

[BillMc]

Have a sneaking suspicion that George Hill and Patty Mills are going to be our backup back court, with Dedmon as our starting center.

It's not impossible but not entirely likely. If Gasol and Dedmon end up opting out. Spurs could sign Hill (4 years, $48 million) and Dedmon(4 years, $32 million) and resign Mills (4 years, $44 million) along with potentially bringing over Milutinov. This would assume that Manu retires or resigns for cheap, and the Spurs let Simmons walk.


Parker-Mills-Murray
Green-Hill
Leonard-Bertans
Aldridge-Anderson
Dedmon-Lee-Milutinov

Do you think Hill would really sign here to be a backup?

[r0drig0lac]

Have a sneaking suspicion that George Hill and Patty Mills are going to be our backup back court, with Dedmon as our starting center.

It's not impossible but not entirely likely. If Gasol and Dedmon end up opting out. Spurs could sign Hill (4 years, $48 million) and Dedmon(4 years, $32 million) and resign Mills (4 years, $44 million) along with potentially bringing over Milutinov. This would assume that Manu retires or resigns for cheap, and the Spurs let Simmons walk.


Parker-Mills-Murray
Green-Hill
Leonard-Bertans
Aldridge-Anderson
Dedmon-Lee-Milutinov

no way

[tbdog]

We are over the cap but under the tax, so it didn't really matter if we paid manu 5 mil or 14mil, we were pretty much already over. We hold bird rights on Mills, i think partial on simmons. Dedmon we will need to use our cap to resign.

[TD 21]

Have a sneaking suspicion that George Hill and Patty Mills are going to be our backup back court, with Dedmon as our starting center.

It's not impossible but not entirely likely. If Gasol and Dedmon end up opting out. Spurs could sign Hill (4 years, $48 million) and Dedmon(4 years, $32 million) and resign Mills (4 years, $44 million) along with potentially bringing over Milutinov. This would assume that Manu retires or resigns for cheap, and the Spurs let Simmons walk.


Parker-Mills-Murray
Green-Hill
Leonard-Bertans
Aldridge-Anderson
Dedmon-Lee-Milutinov

Not a snowball's chance in hell this happens. Even if it were possible (and though it may be in a technical sense in the scenario you outlined, in a practical one, I don't think for a second that it is), they're not spending big on four guards, blocking Murray on a long term basis and going that thin at center or the big positions in general. This is an organization that still likes to play traditionally; that's why they prioritized Gasol last off season.

At this writing, this is how I think it plays out . . .

- Ginobili retires
- Gasol opts in
- Lee opts out and isn't re-signed (Bertans replaces him in rotation)
- Dedmon opts out and they offer something like 3/$24M; if he can do more than marginally better, he's gone
- Mills is re-signed for something like 4/$40M
- Simmons get's an offer sheet for something like 3/$21M and they don't match (Anderson replaces him in rotation)

[apalisoc_9]

Not a snowball's chance in hell this happens. Even if it were possible (and though it may be in a technical sense in the scenario you outlined, in a practical one, I don't think for a second that it is), they're not spending big on four guards, blocking Murray on a long term basis and going that thin at center or the big positions in general. This is an organization that still likes to play traditionally; that's why they prioritized Gasol last off season.

At this writing, this is how I think it plays out . . .

- Ginobili retires
- Gasol opts in
- Lee opts out and isn't re-signed (Bertans replaces him in rotation)
- Dedmon opts out and they offer something like 3/$24M; if he can do more than marginally better, he's gone
- Mills is re-signed for something like 4/$40M
- Simmons get's an offer sheet for something like 3/$21M and they don't match (Anderson replaces him in rotation)

Yup.

This is a more likely scenario, but I suspect they have their eyesight on a guard if Ginobili retires. The Spurs would have virtually zero playmakers pff the bench and Parker is only going to lose minutes next year. That's why I don't thinl Mills is that much of a priority.

It would be best if Gasol opts out, that would help them to retain mills, sign dedmon and search for another Guard.

Yeah, no way spurs retain simmons and Lee...

Edit: forgot about Mills Bird rights. He's staying.

Likely scenario, team tries to find a cheap fix to Lee-Simmons leaving.

[TD 21]

Yup.

This is a more likely scenario, but I suspect they have their eyesight on a guard if Ginobili retires. The Spurs would have virtually zero playmakers pff the bench and Parker is only going to lose minutes next year. That's why I don't thinl Mills is that much of a priority.

It would be best if Gasol opts out, that would help them to retain mills, sign dedmon and search for another Guard.

Yeah, no way spurs retain simmons and Lee...

The Mills situation is too similar to the Green situation to ignore. Playmaking off the bench will undoubtedly be a concern, but they'll probably target Teodosic to plug the hole and serve as a bridge to Murray.

Gasol opting out would help on those fronts, but it would also leave a gaping hole at center. Even if you believe Dedmon can start, they'd still need someone to split minutes with him and any center good enough to do that costs a good amount.

[apalisoc_9]

The Mills situation is too similar to the Green situation to ignore. Playmaking off the bench will undoubtedly be a concern, but they'll probably target Teodosic to plug the hole and serve as a bridge to Murray.

Gasol opting out would help on those fronts, but it would also leave a gaping hole at center. Even if you believe Dedmon can start, they'd still need someone to split minutes with him and any center good enough to do that costs a good amount.

I forgot about Mills Bird rights. He's staying.

The spurs have never given an NBA rookie that big of a responsibility. I made a thread about teodosic a few months ago but I'm realizing that it's unlikely for the spurs to give any NBA virigin a sure shot 15mpg playing time, and if Manu retiries..they are most likely going to look for someone that can be trusted to play those minutes..possibly even more with Simmons out.

Maybe murray eats some of the most minutes, but that's a huge question mark.

[cd021]

Do you think Hill would really sign here to be a backup?

It's not like Green is playing 32 mpg. Green could get minutes at the 3, clearing minutes for Hill to play 25-28 mpg. He'd likely be 3rd on the team in mpg if this were to happen, essentially a starter off the bench.

[TD 21]

I forgot about Mills Bird rights. He's staying.

The spurs have never given an NBA rookie that big of a responsibility. I made a thread about teodosic a few months ago but I'm realizing that it's unlikely for the spurs to give any NBA virigin a sure shot 15mpg playing time, and if Manu retiries..they are most likely going to look for someone that can be trusted to play those minutes..possibly even more with Simmons out.

Maybe murray eats some of the most minutes, but that's a huge question mark.

They don't have the depth (unlike when they brought in Oberto, Splitter, De Colo and Bertans) to play games or the financial flexibility to do better, probably in general and certainly in terms of a Ginobili archetype.

Besides, with the possible exception of Splitter, Teodosic is the most accomplished of the bunch, he'll turn 30 this year and he's said he'll only come to the NBA for a guaranteed rotation spot.

Considering all that, I absolutely think they'd give him roughly 20 mpg.

[cd021]

I forgot about Mills Bird rights. He's staying.

The spurs have never given an NBA rookie that big of a responsibility. I made a thread about teodosic a few months ago but I'm realizing that it's unlikely for the spurs to give any NBA virigin a sure shot 15mpg playing time, and if Manu retiries..they are most likely going to look for someone that can be trusted to play those minutes..possibly even more with Simmons out.

Maybe murray eats some of the most minutes, but that's a huge question mark.

I don't see the Spurs letting Mills walk if they can help it. Murray needs another year and Parker and Green are essentially splitting the PG minutes. Murray would either need to step into a much bigger role or play behind someone who can. Another backup capable of handling those minutes (around 21-23 mpg) would likely be out of the spurs price range. Teodosic is coming to the NBA and while he would be a rookie, he has plenty of experience but it would be a big unknown whether he and Murray can combine to fill Mills void.

[pad300]

Not a snowball's chance in hell this happens. Even if it were possible (and though it may be in a technical sense in the scenario you outlined, in a practical one, I don't think for a second that it is), they're not spending big on four guards, blocking Murray on a long term basis and going that thin at center or the big positions in general. This is an organization that still likes to play traditionally; that's why they prioritized Gasol last off season.

At this writing, this is how I think it plays out . . .

- Ginobili retires
- Gasol opts in
- Lee opts out and isn't re-signed (Bertans replaces him in rotation)
- Dedmon opts out and they offer something like 3/$24M; if he can do more than marginally better, he's gone
- Mills is re-signed for something like 4/$40M
- Simmons get's an offer sheet for something like 3/$21M and they don't match (Anderson replaces him in rotation)

I agree that Gino retires, Gasol opts in, and Lee and Dedmon opt out. Qualifying offers are extended to Mills (at least $4 Million, maybe $4.8 million) and Simmons (approximate cap space $1 Million). That puts the spurs at ~ 93.5 million in cap, and 11 players. Add a first rounder ~$1,000,000 and a minimum hold to take them to 13 players, and they have salary of ~ 95.5 million, and $8 million below the cap (expected $103M).

Mills is going to get more that 4/$40M, at least $12M per year for 4 years, and likely $14+M. The spurs will not match that for a non-starter who isn't Ginobili esque in terms of impact.

That leaves an enormous hole in the bench, and something like $12 million in cap. If they trust Simmons/Anderson/Rookie to fill the hole, then they will use the space to try to re-sign Dedmon, (who will have options, and people putting contracts in front of him at the very least at a Baynes/Boban level). He might be on the order of 4/$40M... Alternatively, if they feel the need to add a guard, Dedmon also becomes a cap casualty, and they try and fill the hole from free agency. I think that a guard will be the FO's choice.

Obviously at that salary, we will not be getting a top tier FA, likely someone with some issues. My personal target would be Tyreke Evans (Cheap due to injury and not living up to his expectations coming into the league). Re-sign simmons with partial Bird Rights ? 3/ estimated average salary ~$5.7M ? Try to resign Lee with the Biannual exception or part of the tax payers MLE.

Gasol, Lee
LMA, Bertans, Anderson
Kawhi, Simmons
Green, ?Tyreke?, Forbes
Parker, Murray

add one rookie, and possibly Vet min contracts.

[TD 21]

I agree that Gino retires, Gasol opts in, and Lee and Dedmon opt out. Qualifying offers are extended to Mills (at least $4 Million, maybe $4.8 million) and Simmons (approximate cap space $1 Million). That puts the spurs at ~ 93.5 million in cap, and 11 players. Add a first rounder ~$1,000,000 and a minimum hold to take them to 13 players, and they have salary of ~ 95.5 million, and $8 million below the cap (expected $103M).

Mills is going to get more that 4/$40M, at least $12M per year for 4 years, and likely $14+M. The spurs will not match that for a non-starter who isn't Ginobili esque in terms of impact.

That leaves an enormous hole in the bench, and something like $12 million in cap. If they trust Simmons/Anderson/Rookie to fill the hole, then they will use the space to try to re-sign Dedmon, (who will have options, and people putting contracts in front of him at the very least at a Baynes/Boban level). He might be on the order of 4/$40M... Alternatively, if they feel the need to add a guard, Dedmon also becomes a cap casualty, and they try and fill the hole from free agency. I think that a guard will be the FO's choice.

Obviously at that salary, we will not be getting a top tier FA, likely someone with some issues. My personal target would be Tyreke Evans (Cheap due to injury and not living up to his expectations coming into the league). Re-sign simmons with partial Bird Rights ? 3/ estimated average salary ~$5.7M ? Try to resign Lee with the Biannual exception or part of the tax payers MLE.

Gasol, Lee
LMA, Bertans, Anderson
Kawhi, Simmons
Green, ?Tyreke?, Forbes
Parker, Murray

add one rookie, and possibly Vet min contracts.

Mills might very well get offered more than that, but that doesn't mean he'll take it. Green was rumored to have turned down $20M, so why is it so outlandish that Mills could turn down probably less than half of that? Maybe he won't, but I don't know why so many seem to be ruling it out.

Dedmon is a different story. He also might very well get offered more than that and he doesn't have the same meaning to the Spurs and they don't have the same meaning to him. He's also made virtually nothing and given his age might only have one chance at a significant contract, so if the difference is more than slight, I expect him to be gone.

Your bench makes no sense. There's too much overlap among the primary perimeter backups and not nearly enough rim protection.

[SpursIndonesia]

Why would Hill sign for 12 a year when he can get significantly more money with Utah or anywhere else? PATFO won't sign two PG's over 10 million while starting parker. Hill won't be signing anywhere as a bench guy. He's far too good for that.

Dedmon and Lee are most likely going to opt out, considering he's been playing over his salary. Gasol, is a huge question mark. If Manu retires, you can bet the spurs are going to aggressively look for a playmaker since Mills isnt one.

I'm thinking the order of priority fpr next year of Manu retires (most likely)

Get a guard that can penetrate
if they find someone for a good price, attempt to re-sign dedmon and Lee
If that plan goes according to plan, resign mills.

Mills is probably going to be the least of their priorities since shooters are easier to find and easier to plug into teams.

I agree with this plan, but anyway it goes, Dedmon MUST be resigned, i don't care if they steal, extort, threaten, whatever, just DON'T LET THIS GUY GET AWAY.

[sasaint]

I agree with this plan, but anyway it goes, Dedmon MUST be resigned, i don't care if they steal, extort, threaten, whatever, just DON'T LET THIS GUY GET AWAY.

I agree. WE WANT DEADMAN! WE WANT DEADMAN! Whatever the market next off-season, I don't think the Spurs can afford to lose the guy. Ideally I would like DLee back, too.

[sasaint]

Not a snowball's chance in hell this happens. Even if it were possible (and though it may be in a technical sense in the scenario you outlined, in a practical one, I don't think for a second that it is), they're not spending big on four guards, blocking Murray on a long term basis and going that thin at center or the big positions in general. This is an organization that still likes to play traditionally; that's why they prioritized Gasol last off season.

At this writing, this is how I think it plays out . . .

- Ginobili retires
- Gasol opts in
- Lee opts out and isn't re-signed (Bertans replaces him in rotation)
- Dedmon opts out and they offer something like 3/$24M; if he can do more than marginally better, he's gone
- Mills is re-signed for something like 4/$40M
- Simmons get's an offer sheet for something like 3/$21M and they don't match (Anderson replaces him in rotation)

I won't speculate on his offers or salary, but I expect the Spurs to bring back Simmons - most especially if he continues to develop. I think the Spurs are counting on that and plan for Simmons to replace Manu on the second unit.

[sasaint]

Do you think Hill would really sign here to be a backup?

Absolutely no way! Especially since I expect Pop to turn the keys over to Murray some time next season.

[pad300]

Mills might very well get offered more than that, but that doesn't mean he'll take it. Green was rumored to have turned down $20M, so why is it so outlandish that Mills could turn down probably less than half of that? Maybe he won't, but I don't know why so many seem to be ruling it out.

Dedmon is a different story. He also might very well get offered more than that and he doesn't have the same meaning to the Spurs and they don't have the same meaning to him. He's also made virtually nothing and given his age might only have one chance at a significant contract, so if the difference is more than slight, I expect him to be gone.

Your bench makes no sense. There's too much overlap among the primary perimeter backups and not nearly enough rim protection.

I wouldn't put my money on Mills not taking an offer. IIRC He's made noises about being a starter. Which he will not do here unless Murray's development fails... Not getting to be a starter and significantly less pay; suggests to me that he won't turn down an offer that gives him both.

I agree the bench is going to be an issue, but guess what, the salary cap can squeeze a team. If Patty leaves, we can likely afford one mid-high level player, be it Dedmon, Tyreke, or whomever. After that we are going to be fishing with exceptions, pretty small ones. Also, regarding Rim protection, do you remember some of the dark years from 08-11, some the "big" men that were helping TD? In 10/11 in order of minutes played (and more than 300 minutes) TD, Blair, Bonner, McDyess, Splitter. In 09/10 TD, McDyess, Blair, Bonner. In 08/09 TD, Bonner, Kurt Thomas, Oberto, Gooden. I'm not so sure that Pop values rim protection as much as you do...

[GSH]

Do you think Hill would really sign here to be a backup?


Absolutely no way! Especially since I expect Pop to turn the keys over to Murray some time next season.


I have a feeling that Hill would like to come back to SA. Nothing to base it on, other than I think he liked it here. If he got paid a reasonable amount, and he and Parker were pretty much interchangeable? Maybe co-starters, where one starts part of the time and the other part of the time? I think he would be interested.

I think talk about handing the team over to Murray is getting way, way ahead of things. If someone like Hill doesn't come, then I think Murray could become a serious full-time backup. In a Parker/Hill co-starter, Murray could still get lots of backup minutes, because I don't think Tony will pull long minutes. But sticking him in as the full-time starter? We've seen one really good game. Up till then, we've been happy just to see him contribute.

[sasaint]

I have a feeling that Hill would like to come back to SA. Nothing to base it on, other than I think he liked it here. If he got paid a reasonable amount, and he and Parker were pretty much interchangeable? Maybe co-starters, where one starts part of the time and the other part of the time? I think he would be interested.

I think talk about handing the team over to Murray is getting way, way ahead of things. If someone like Hill doesn't come, then I think Murray could become a serious full-time backup. In a Parker/Hill co-starter, Murray could still get lots of backup minutes, because I don't think Tony will pull long minutes. But sticking him in as the full-time starter? We've seen one really good game. Up till then, we've been happy just to see him contribute.

Actually, I made a comment in a very early season thread that called for turning the keys over to Dijon then. I suggested then and will do so again that at the time Pop turned the keys over to Tony he was not very good. In Tony's first championship run, Avery had to bail him out every game. I don't see why Tony and/or Patty couldn't do that for Dijon, if necessary. With his length, defensive prowess, rebounding ability and 3-point shooting (?), Dijon strikes me as a better player now than Tony was when he became the Spurs' starting PG. I think Dijon needs to be fast-tracked, not bumped back behind Tony and Hill next season, and Hill for seasons beyond.

[SpursIndonesia]

Actually, I made a comment in a very early season thread that called for turning the keys over to Dijon then. I suggested then and will do so again that at the time Pop turned the keys over to Tony he was not very good. In Tony's first championship run, Avery had to bail him out every game. I don't see why Tony and/or Patty couldn't do that for Dijon, if necessary. With his length, defensive prowess, rebounding ability and 3-point shooting (?), Dijon strikes me as a better player now than Tony was when he became the Spurs' starting PG. I think Dijon needs to be fast-tracked, not bumped back behind Tony and Hill next season, and Hill for seasons beyond.

It was Speedy Claxton man, i still vividly remember those days. :)

I really like Hill, but i honestly think he is a luxury that we don't necessarily need, especially with Dijon developing curve as of late.

[will_spurs]

I have no idea why everybody is so fixated on Hill coming back to the Spurs. First issue: $$$. Second issue: he doesn't fit.

Murray seems to the future. Clearly PATFO still trusts Parker. The transition will be smooth.

[sasaint]

It was Speedy Claxton man, i still vividly remember those days. :)

I really like Hill, but i honestly think he is a luxury that we don't necessarily need, especially with Dijon developing curve as of late.

My bad - The Little general was on the first championship roster. It was, indeed, Speedy Claxton bailing out Tony in the 02-03 championship run. Thanks for the kind correction! Until I checked the roster, I had forgotten that Beno was also on that roster. I really liked him in the 04-05 run and thought he had better potential than Tony until Lindsay Hunter ate him alive in the finals. The next season he started out injured (physically as well as his pride!) and never got out of Pop's doghouse.

Dijon's time is sooner... or not with the Spurs.

[sasaint]

I have no idea why everybody is so fixated on Hill coming back to the Spurs. First issue: $$$. Second issue: he doesn't fit.

Murray seems to the future. Clearly PATFO still trusts Parker. The transition will be smooth.

Smooth or bumpy the transition will be between Tony and Murray. The Spurs don't need an interim PG. That would only muddy the water and mess up the timing.

[SAGirl]

Smooth or bumpy the transition will be between Tony and Murray. The Spurs don't need an interim PG. That would only muddy the water and mess up the timing.
Pop still wanted to sign that PG from bklyn that's now a Milwaukee coach and was the Mavs PG in 2011.. damn mental fart I forget his name and he placed Tony under a living hell of screaming and coaching as far as guys here tell it. Basically he did go with Tiny but it was a huge challenge that Pop wanted to get a more vet PG to spare him time to develop... Still the same old Pop he now has that vet PG in the roster in Tony.

I also think Dijons the future and Pop is going to feel like he has the luxury of bringing him along. Team doesn't need Hill...

[bklynspursfan]

Pop still wanted to sign that PG from bklyn that's now a Milwaukee coach and was the Mavs PG in 2011.. damn mental fart I forget his name and he placed Tony under a living hell of screaming and coaching as far as guys here tell it. Basically he did go with Tiny but it was a huge challenge that Pop wanted to get a more vet PG to spare him time to develop... Still the same old Pop he now has that vet PG in the roster in Tony.

I also think Dijons the future and Pop is going to feel like he has the luxury of bringing him along. Team doesn't need Hill...

Jason Kidd...

He wanted him to play with Tony, felt like that would be a great guy to learn from. Which makes sense. It def helps to have respectable vets, especially playing such a key position

[sasaint]

Pop still wanted to sign that PG from bklyn that's now a Milwaukee coach and was the Mavs PG in 2011.. damn mental fart I forget his name and he placed Tony under a living hell of screaming and coaching as far as guys here tell it. Basically he did go with Tiny but it was a huge challenge that Pop wanted to get a more vet PG to spare him time to develop... Still the same old Pop he now has that vet PG in the roster in Tony.

I also think Dijons the future and Pop is going to feel like he has the luxury of bringing him along. Team doesn't need Hill...

Jason Kidd? 2011? You mean 2003? Sorry, I misunderstood your post. Kidd was, indeed the Mavs PG in 2011. The Spurs courted him heavily in 2003.

[TD 21]

I won't speculate on his offers or salary, but I expect the Spurs to bring back Simmons - most especially if he continues to develop. I think the Spurs are counting on that and plan for Simmons to replace Manu on the second unit.

It's not that I don't think they'll have interest, it's just that they don't have much financial flexibility and he's the most easily replaceable free agent. There's enough overlap between him and Murray, that it wouldn't make sense to pay him something approaching a mid level salary, especially if Mills is re-signed.


I wouldn't put my money on Mills not taking an offer. IIRC He's made noises about being a starter. Which he will not do here unless Murray's development fails... Not getting to be a starter and significantly less pay; suggests to me that he won't turn down an offer that gives him both.

I agree the bench is going to be an issue, but guess what, the salary cap can squeeze a team. If Patty leaves, we can likely afford one mid-high level player, be it Dedmon, Tyreke, or whomever. After that we are going to be fishing with exceptions, pretty small ones. Also, regarding Rim protection, do you remember some of the dark years from 08-11, some the "big" men that were helping TD? In 10/11 in order of minutes played (and more than 300 minutes) TD, Blair, Bonner, McDyess, Splitter. In 09/10 TD, McDyess, Blair, Bonner. In 08/09 TD, Bonner, Kurt Thomas, Oberto, Gooden. I'm not so sure that Pop values rim protection as much as you do...

He might. All I'm saying is, this situation is eerily similar to Green's, who many also doubted would be re-signed. He was asked about starting and gave a cliché answer. What was he going to say, no? It could affect his market value and give off the perception that he lacks ambition. Like Green, I think he feels somewhat indebted to the organization and knows he's got it good here.

Limited financial flexibility or not, the pieces still have to fit.

Yeah and since then they've made height and length a priority again. I don't see them going back to what passes for their version of the "dark ages".

[BillMc]

Smooth or bumpy the transition will be between Tony and Murray. The Spurs don't need an interim PG. That would only muddy the water and mess up the timing.


Pop still wanted to sign that PG from bklyn that's now a Milwaukee coach and was the Mavs PG in 2011.. damn mental fart I forget his name and he placed Tony under a living hell of screaming and coaching as far as guys here tell it. Basically he did go with Tiny but it was a huge challenge that Pop wanted to get a more vet PG to spare him time to develop... Still the same old Pop he now has that vet PG in the roster in Tony.

I also think Dijons the future and Pop is going to feel like he has the luxury of bringing him along. Team doesn't need Hill...

These. And it wouldn't surprise me if Patty (who has gone on record as saying he'd like to be a starter) sees the writing on the wall.

[sasaint]

It's not that I don't think they'll have interest, it's just that they don't have much financial flexibility and he's the most easily replaceable free agent. There's enough overlap between him and Murray, that it wouldn't make sense to pay him something approaching a mid level salary, especially if Mills is re-signed.

He might. All I'm saying is, this situation is eerily similar to Green's, who many also doubted would be re-signed. He was asked about starting and gave a cliché answer. What was he going to say, no? It could affect his market value and give off the perception that he lacks ambition. Like Green, I think he feels somewhat indebted to the organization and knows he's got it good here.

Limited financial flexibility or not, the pieces still have to fit.

Yeah and since then they've made height and length a priority again. I don't see them going back to what passes for their version of the "dark ages".

Simmons and Murray do have some overlapping skills, but I think they are slated for very different duty. Murray is slated for starting PG, Simmons to replace Manu. As things currently stand, I expect Patty to be too pricey, so Simmons will be a second priority behind Deadman.

[picnroll]

Simmons and Murray do have some overlapping skills, but I think they are slated for very different duty. Murray is slated for starting PG, Simmons to replace Manu. As things currently stand, I expect Patty to be too pricey, so Simmons will be a second priority behind Deadman.
On offense Manu plays more as the backup PG and Mills is the short SG.

[sasaint]

These. And it wouldn't surprise me if Patty (who has gone on record as saying he'd like to be a starter) sees the writing on the wall.

You are right, Patty sees the writing on the wall. Patty is getting squeezed in two directions. As a PG, Tony and Dijon are doing the squeezing. As a 3-point shooter, Bertans is the primary squeezer. Patty's niche is definitely shrinking. Plus, he will get paid pretty well by somebody. I love Patty, but my opinion has done a 180 in the last few weeks. I think he is gone.

[sasaint]

On offense Manu plays more as the backup PG and Mills is the short SG.

Anymore, Manu and Patty are more of a two-headed PG/SG beast.

[TD 21]

Simmons and Murray do have some overlapping skills, but I think they are slated for very different duty. Murray is slated for starting PG, Simmons to replace Manu. As things currently stand, I expect Patty to be too pricey, so Simmons will be a second priority behind Deadman.

Murray is potentially slated for starting PG, but not next season and probably not for a few, which means if they commit long term to Simmons, they'd be playing plenty together. Given what he's likely to command and with bigger fish to fry, I think the overlap will come into play.

[picnroll]

If things work out Murray or Parker will be the starting PG and the other the backup, particularly if Manu is gone.
This means no room for Mills. He likely won't be retained, other greater needs.

[sasaint]

Murray is potentially slated for starting PG, but not next season and probably not for a few, which means if they commit long term to Simmons, they'd be playing plenty together. Given what he's likely to command and with bigger fish to fry, I think the overlap will come into play.

I believe Pop will turn the keys over to Murray sooner than you.

[sasaint]

If things work out Murray or Parker will be the starting PG and the other the backup, particularly if Manu is gone.
This means no room for Mills. He likely won't be retained, other greater needs.

Exactly.

[TD 21]

I believe Pop will turn the keys over to Murray sooner than you.

Obviously, it depends on how rapid his development is, but it also depends on how long Parker plays (I know what he said, but I don't think he can physically hold up another 4+ years) and more or less maintains his current level and whether Mills is retained, because a Parker-Mills back court isn't feasible.

[sasaint]

Obviously, it depends on how rapid his development is, but it also depends on how long Parker plays (I know what he said, but I don't think he can physically hold up another 4+ years) and more or less maintains his current level and whether Mills is retained, because a Parker-Mills back court isn't feasible.

I expect Mills will be gone. Parker is no longer capable of being a full-time starter for a team that aspires to be a real contender. That will be truer next year.

[picnroll]

The elephant in the room for the Spurs salary/talent-wise is that they have largely struck out on draft picks for several years. There best pick had to be used to get Kawhi. Their next best pick, Cojo, was lost without compensation. There have otherwise been a parade of Mahinmi, LJC, Anderson, Multinovs. Hopefully Murray stops that trend.

[sasaint]

The elephant in the room for the Spurs salary/talent-wise is that they have largely struck out on draft picks for several years. There best pick had to be used to get Kawhi. Their next best pick, Cojo, was lost without compensation. There have otherwise been a parade of Mahinmi, LJC, Anderson, Multinovs. Hopefully Murray stops that trend.

I believe he will, and the Spurs are banking on it.

[TD 21]

I expect Mills will be gone. Parker is no longer capable of being a full-time starter for a team that aspires to be a real contender. That will be truer next year.

I know, but he might not be and if he isn't, that's going to factor into Murray's timeline to start.

[sasaint]

I know, but he might not be and if he isn't, that's going to factor into Murray's timeline to start.

I believe Mills is gone. However, if he isn't, I expect Murray's presence to have more impact on Mills' playing time than vice versa - including Murray's timeline to start. For a team that aspires to be a real contender, Mills is no more a starter than Tony. Tony and/or Mills will serve as Dijon's safety net.

[TD 21]

I believe Mills is gone. However, if he isn't, I expect Murray's presence to have more impact on Mills' playing time than vice versa - including Murray's timeline to start. For a team that aspires to be a real contender, Mills is no more a starter than Tony. Tony and/or Mills will serve as Dijon's safety net.

I'm not saying Mills will start, I'm saying they won't go with a Parker-Mills backup back court. So if Mills is re-signed, that probably pushes back the timeline for Murray to become a starter.

Starting is largely irrelevant. He can get 20-24 mpg backing up Green, running the offense on the 2nd unit and potentially finishing some close games.

[sasaint]

I'm not saying Mills will start, I'm saying they won't go with a Parker-Mills backup back court. So if Mills is re-signed, that probably pushes back the timeline for Murray to become a starter.

Starting is largely irrelevant. He can get 20-24 mpg backing up Green, running the offense on the 2nd unit and potentially finishing some close games.

Read my comments to BillMc above about Mills. You and I will just have to wait and see. I believe he is gone. I expect the backup backcourt to be Tony and JSimms before long - unless Danny and JSimms swap places - which I don't expect.

[cd021]

Not a snowball's chance in hell this happens. Even if it were possible (and though it may be in a technical sense in the scenario you outlined, in a practical one, I don't think for a second that it is), they're not spending big on four guards, blocking Murray on a long term basis and going that thin at center or the big positions in general. This is an organization that still likes to play traditionally; that's why they prioritized Gasol last off season.

At this writing, this is how I think it plays out . . .

- Ginobili retires
Agreed.
- Gasol opts in

- Lee opts out and isn't re-signed (Bertans replaces him in rotation)
- Dedmon opts out and they offer something like 3/$24M; if he can do more than marginally better, he's gone
- Mills is re-signed for something like 4/$40M
- Simmons get's an offer sheet for something like 3/$21M and they don't match (Anderson replaces him in rotation)

I don't disagree with most of what you said. I also think that that lineup would be pretty damned good, far better than PATFO could've expected after losing Duncan and ,possibly, Manu. It's a win now move, GSW may be worse next season if Iggy and Livingston are poached on short term high $ deals. Murray's play of late has made me start to reconsider my belief that he needs another year before he can be a top 10 rotation player. Signing Hill would block Murray from being able to consistently getting minutes, you're right. Unless The Spurs think Parker's going to retire in the next year or two, then this somewhat unlikely to happen.



Ginobili retires
I would hope he does, but his playmaking is still valuable. He can still be an effective player and the bench won't be the same without him but if it' not for the room exception or vet min, i'm not all that interested in him.


Gasol opts in Agreed. $16.1 is a lot of money to turn down for a player entering his age 37 season, unless he agrees to a two year deal with less money per and more money over two years with the Spurs or another team (i.e 2 years, $22-24 million)


Lee opts out and isn't re-signed (Bertans replaces him in rotation)
Sure, I could see him returning too but Bertans appears ready to be a rotation player. I really like Lee's fit with the team but if Dedmon and Gasol are both back and Bertans is ready to contribute as a rotation player then that's a pretty crowded front court.


Dedmon opts out and they offer something like 3/$24M; if he can do more than marginally better, he's gone

We seem to be thinking about the level of money ($8 Million per ) but over different years. I was thinking a 4 year deal with, maybe, a player opt out after 3, where he can potentially sign another deal at 30 years old. I think he still has room for growth as a player and could and should see an increased role next season ,hopefully, with the Spurs.


Mills is re-signed for something like 4/$40M

Again, same area code in terms of money. I could see a team going as high as 4/$52M but it would a Phily-like team (or Philly). I am high on Mills and he along with Leonard and Green have been the biggest reasons why the Spurs lead the league in 3pt shooting (though their attempts are still well below league average, despite jumping 20% from last season)


Simmons get's an offer sheet for something like 3/$21M and they don't match (Anderson replaces him in rotation)

Hard for me to gauge his worth, that sounds about right though. I sort of like him, though I wish he was more of a 3pt threat but I wouldn't be broken up if he left, so long as Mills and Dedmon were back. Anderson is a frustrating player, who desperately needs to be able to knock down corner 3's but that probably isn't going to be a consistent part of his game, I also think he's playing out of position, he's a PF in my book, with skills of a perimeter player but he also needs the ball to be effective as an offensive player and I don't think that's ever going to happen in S.A.
[/QUOTE]

[cd021]

The elephant in the room for the Spurs salary/talent-wise is that they have largely struck out on draft picks for several years. There best pick had to be used to get Kawhi. Their next best pick, Cojo, was lost without compensation. There have otherwise been a parade of Mahinmi, LJC, Anderson, Multinovs. Hopefully Murray stops that trend.

Agree that our recent draft history has been suspect, though Milutinov seems like a solid big prospect, unless you 've been keeping up with him, which I haven't been. I assume that you're referring to Kyle and not James Anderson that pick didn't pan out (granted he did have Jones fracture).

Really from 2007-2017 The only picks that have panned out for the Spurs have been Splitter, Hill, Leonard, Cojo, and Murray (so far, so good), with Milutinov not yet a Spur.

Spurs have drafted 22 players (including Leonard) during that span.

[will_spurs]

Dijon strikes me as a better player now than Tony was when he became the Spurs' starting PG.

I'm all for Dejounte getting more minutes as soon as possible, but there's been so much Tony bashing that it must have made you forget...

Tony took over the starting position on his 5th NBA game. Those are his 6th and 7th NBA games. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Back then Tony was possibly the fastest thing you had ever seen.



6
6
2001-11-08 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200111080CHH.html)
19-175
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2002.html)
@
CHH (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHH/2002.html)
W (+10)
1
38:00
8
16
.500
4
7
.571
2
2
1.000
0
4
4
5
0
0
0
1
22
18.3
+9


7
7
2001-11-10 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200111100SAS.html)
19-177
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2002.html)

ATL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2002.html)
W (+22)
1
38:00
8
14
.571
3
7
.429
0
0

0
4
4
8
2
0
1
5
19
18.2
+21

[sasaint]

I'm all for Dejounte getting more minutes as soon as possible, but there's been so much Tony bashing that it must have made you forget...

Tony took over the starting position on his 5th NBA game. Those are his 6th and 7th NBA games. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Back then Tony was possibly the fastest thing you had ever seen.



6
6
2001-11-08 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200111080CHH.html)
19-175
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2002.html)
@
CHH (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHH/2002.html)
W (+10)
1
38:00
8
16
.500
4
7
.571
2
2
1.000
0
4
4
5
0
0
0
1
22
18.3
+9


7
7
2001-11-10 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200111100SAS.html)
19-177
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2002.html)

ATL (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2002.html)
W (+22)
1
38:00
8
14
.571
3
7
.429
0
0

0
4
4
8
2
0
1
5
19
18.2
+21



You are right. Tony was the fastest thing I had ever seen on a basketball court. But beyond going to the bucket in a blurr, his only other real offensive move was to to pass the ball to Tim in the post and get out of the way. It was great that he was the best player in the league at getting to the basket, because he had virtually no jump shot until a few seasons later. The Spurs would have never won in 2002-03 without Speedy Claxton bailing out Tony in virtually every game. Even after 03, the Spurs and JKidd had a verbal deal for him to come to San Antonio to mentor Tony. Tony went through many growing pains those first few years, and the Spurs still competed and won. With our backcourt the way it is now, Dijon is as capable now as Tony was then. Tony should mentor Dijon and be his Speedy Claxton, if necessary.

[CGD]

So the real question:

How do the Spurs keep Dedmon, Simmons, and Patty assuming Pau opts-in?

[TD 21]

I don't disagree with most of what you said. I also think that that lineup would be pretty damned good, far better than PATFO could've expected after losing Duncan and ,possibly, Manu. It's a win now move, GSW may be worse next season if Iggy and Livingston are poached on short term high $ deals. Murray's play of late has made me start to reconsider my belief that he needs another year before he can be a top 10 rotation player. Signing Hill would block Murray from being able to consistently getting minutes, you're right. Unless The Spurs think Parker's going to retire in the next year or two, then this somewhat unlikely to happen.



I would hope he does, but his playmaking is still valuable. He can still be an effective player and the bench won't be the same without him but if it' not for the room exception or vet min, i'm not all that interested in him.

Agreed. $16.1 is a lot of money to turn down for a player entering his age 37 season, unless he agrees to a two year deal with less money per and more money over two years with the Spurs or another team (i.e 2 years, $22-24 million)


Sure, I could see him returning too but Bertans appears ready to be a rotation player. I really like Lee's fit with the team but if Dedmon and Gasol are both back and Bertans is ready to contribute as a rotation player then that's a pretty crowded front court.



We seem to be thinking about the level of money ($8 Million per ) but over different years. I was thinking a 4 year deal with, maybe, a player opt out after 3, where he can potentially sign another deal at 30 years old. I think he still has room for growth as a player and could and should see an increased role next season ,hopefully, with the Spurs.



Again, same area code in terms of money. I could see a team going as high as 4/$52M but it would a Phily-like team (or Philly). I am high on Mills and he along with Leonard and Green have been the biggest reasons why the Spurs lead the league in 3pt shooting (though their attempts are still well below league average, despite jumping 20% from last season)



Hard for me to gauge his worth, that sounds about right though. I sort of like him, though I wish he was more of a 3pt threat but I wouldn't be broken up if he left, so long as Mills and Dedmon were back. Anderson is a frustrating player, who desperately needs to be able to knock down corner 3's but that probably isn't going to be a consistent part of his game, I also think he's playing out of position, he's a PF in my book, with skills of a perimeter player but he also needs the ball to be effective as an offensive player and I don't think that's ever going to happen in S.A.


I agree with most of this . . .

- Lee's return is just not practical. He'll rightfully want a significant raise after being underpaid, Bertans is ready to be a rotation player and they could desperately use his high percentage/volume three-point shooting, which has been missing from the big rotation for the past 4 seasons. Even if they lose Dedmon, they'll need someone of his ilk to pair with Bertans.

- I could definitely see a player option for a 4th year with Dedmon and Mills foregoing more elsewhere and accepting $11M per from the Spurs.

- Anderson's lack of shooting would be less of a concern playing next to a stretch four and playing a slightly more ball dominant role. A Mills-Murray-Anderson-Bertans-Dedmon second unit would provide just that.

[TXstbobcat]

So the real question:

How do the Spurs keep Dedmon, Simmons, and Patty assuming Pau opts-in?

they probably won't be able to keep Patty along with Simmons and Dedmon. I think that another team is going to give Patty a contractoffer that he can't refuse.