#freeMurray?

[midnightpulp]

6'5" and long as fuck, and long PGs have typically given Wardell trouble (D'Bust actually defends Wardell pretty well).

Way I see it.

Obviously have to still start Parker, but keep on him short leash. But I think Murray's performance tonight earned him more backup minutes that should be split with the struggling Mills. If Mills doesn't call Maytag and repair himself and Murray continues to improve, he should become the main backup.

We're all obviously going to "overreact" from tonight's game, like we did with Simmons in the opener, but the main backcourt rotation (Manu/House) is short, old and inconsistent. Not good enough to match-up with the Warriors, so we just might have to gamble on players like Murray and Simmons.

[dabom]

Get on the bandwaggon, faggot.

[TXstbobcat]

Really excited about the future with this kid. I hope he gets more minutes.

[TheGreatYacht]

Best backup PG on the team

[BatManu20]

Really excited about his prospects moving forward, but don't think he's ready for Golden State tbh. At least not in the playoffs. Still only 20 years old. Wouldn't mind seeing how he does against them in March though.

[midnightpulp]

Really excited about his prospects moving forward, but don't think he's ready for Golden State tbh. At least not in the playoffs. Still only 20 years old. Wouldn't mind seeing how he does against them in March though.

House will absolutely get massacred by Livingston.

We just might have to gamble.

[Kawhitstorm]

Really excited about his prospects moving forward, but don't think he's ready for Golden State tbh. At least not in the playoffs. Still only 20 years old. Wouldn't mind seeing how he does against them in March though.

He would be fine against the Rockets where the Spurs would have to play small w/ Kawhi at the 4.

[gambit1990]

Get on the bandwaggon, faggot.
:lol

[TheDoctor]

"It is known"

[apalisoc_9]

Murray is redundant as a backup since he offers what Tony offers in offense ( attacking) Mills the curveball the bench needs.


If anything this game makes me pretty confident that Simmons is gone. Murray is probably going to eat simmons minutes next year.

[midnightpulp]

Murray is redundant as a backup since he offers what Tony offers in offense ( attacking) Mills the curveball the bench needs.


If anything this game makes me pretty confident that Simmons is gone. Murray is probably going to eat simmons minutes next year.

But that curveball hasn't been striking anybody out. If Mills continues his slump, then what?

Just pray he gets hot? And even then, a hot Mills won't be good enough against GS. Mills will just get bullied by Livingston and give it right back.

Beating Golden State will require some "gambling." Our conventional rotations are nowhere near enough.

[FkLA]

But that curveball hasn't been striking anybody out. If Mills continues his slump, then what?

Just pray he gets hot? And even then, a hot Mills won't be good enough against GS. Mills will just get bullied by Livingston and give it right back.

Beating Golden State will require some "gambling." Our conventional rotations are nowhere near enough.

This post is kind of comical coming from a strong advocate of Porker.

[TheGreatYacht]

Lmao thinking about Golden State. Can Paddy hold his own against Austin Rivers in the 1st round?

[SAGirl]

I am in Murray's camp.:toast

[dabom]

I am in Murray's camp.:toast

Next time I give out some player analysis, listen. You can get your rep up...

[sasaint]

Murray is redundant as a backup since he offers what Tony offers in offense ( attacking) Mills the curveball the bench needs.


If anything this game makes me pretty confident that Simmons is gone. Murray is probably going to eat simmons minutes next year.

I hope you are wrong. At the current rate of his development, Spurs should turn the keys over to Dijon next season. Tony moves to the second unit with Simmons.

[SAGirl]

Murray is redundant as a backup since he offers what Tony offers in offense ( attacking) Mills the curveball the bench needs.


If anything this game makes me pretty confident that Simmons is gone. Murray is probably going to eat simmons minutes next year.
I have thought the Spurs would try to retain all their guys... but wouldn't be able to bc someone (or all of them frankly) might get too high offers. (talking Dedmon, Lee -both will likely opt out- Patty and Simmons).... Spurs will likely have to set priorities but Murray makes some guys not a priority. They are all playing well. I can't see how it will shake out bc playoff performance matters. it's interesting to discuss and speculate about though.

[palangi]

I am in Murray's camp.:toast

Hell no. You just stay in kyle Anderson camp.

[dabom]

Hell no. You just stay in kyle Anderson camp.

:lol

[TimDunkem]

Hell no. You just stay in kyle Anderson camp.
:lmao

[BD24]

Hell no. You just stay in kyle Anderson camp.
:lol

[TimDunkem]

Inb4 SAGirl says she's being trolled and that she always knew Murray would be great.

[SAGirl]

Hell no. You just stay in kyle Anderson camp.
Lol troll
I liked Murray b4 he was drafted. I wanted him to get drafted ... I poster he was going to be the most impactful rookie when most thought it was Bertans... you can look that up... niglets in here acting like they discovered the earth is round in this day !

[TimDunkem]

Called it. :lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

Lol troll
I liked Murray b4 he was drafted. I wanted him to get drafted ... you can look that up... niglets in here acting like they discovered the earth is round in this day !

:lmao

[MaNu4Tres]

Murray is redundant as a backup since he offers what Tony offers in offense ( attacking) Mills the curveball the bench needs.


If anything this game makes me pretty confident that Simmons is gone. Murray is probably going to eat simmons minutes next year.

I disagree.

Murray isnt redundant.

Murray can play defense and be a net positive just on that end alone. Parker & Mills are negatives on that end.

Meanwhile, on offense, Murray is multi dimensional. He can create seperation out of PnRs or breakdown the D in desperate Iso situations -- getting past his man, turning the corner and getting into the beautiful painted area. Hes also shown improvement from 3 shooting the ball.

The only curveball Mills brings is hustle and streaky shooting while getting abused on the defensive end when it matters because hes just too small. Murray had a wider range of postives that can all be curveballs on both ends.

As for next year, Spurs would be dumb making him get most of his minutes at the SG ( his size/ length wouldnt be an advantage on either end). He'd be most effective being the guy, the PG, on both ends of the floor. Defending PGs, and handling the O since hes already the player on the team who creates the most seperation out of the PnR.

I hope the Spurs smell the roses and dont handcuff Murray in a situation to where they play him at a position where his ceiling is lower. All while, paying Prime Dana Barros/ Eddie House 50 million. That would be a mistake.

Let Murray run the 2nd unit next year.

[TheGreatYacht]

Inb4 SAGirl says she's being trolled and that she always knew Murray would be great.

Lol troll
I liked Murray b4 he was drafted. I wanted him to get drafted ... you can look that up... niglets in here acting like they discovered the earth is round in this day !
https://supernaturalsnark.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/michael-jordan-laughing.gif?w=350&h=200&crop=1

[TimDunkem]

https://supernaturalsnark.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/michael-jordan-laughing.gif?w=350&h=200&crop=1
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265557&p=8850069&viewfull=1#post8850069

:lmao

[TimDunkem]

"(Murray) Can't handle real NBA pressure" -SAGirl

:lmao

[TheGreatYacht]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265557&p=8850069&viewfull=1#post8850069

:lmao
https://ugc.kn3.net/i/760x/https://media.giphy.com/media/I4Jmrcjnr8Zfq/giphy.gif

[dabom]

:lol

[Robz4000]

#FreeMurrayimotbhfwiw

[TimDunkem]

:lol
Exposed.:lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

I'd be surprised if he's ready to play playoff basketball against real defenses IMO(especially at the PG position, since he's so raw, in that regard), but I hope he gets a lot more reps during the regular season, at least..

I'm looking more towards next season, though..hopefully he uses this season's reps to develop more well-rounded PG skills(doesn't have to be a pass-first PG or anything, but it's evident that he's raw at playing the position in the halfcourt in terms of pace control, playmaking for others, etc)..

[313]

Best backup PG on the team

[313]

Murray is redundant as a backup since he offers what Tony offers in offense ( attacking) Mills the curveball the bench needs.


If anything this game makes me pretty confident that Simmons is gone. Murray is probably going to eat simmons minutes next year.Simmons will replace Manu, then Murray will replace Patty(who we won't resign)

[313]

Lol troll
I liked Murray b4 he was drafted. I wanted him to get drafted ... I poster he was going to be the most impactful rookie when most thought it was Bertans... you can look that up... niglets in here acting like they discovered the earth is round in this day !fucking lol :lol

[tim_duncan_fan]

I thinks it's just a matter of time and him following whatever Kawhi's practice and workout regimens are.

And if he can perfect that floater...

[DeRozan m8]

Murray is Parkers replacement.

Hopefully sooner rather than later.

Cheers

[Snaq O'Meal]

Lol troll
I liked Murray b4 he was drafted. I wanted him to get drafted ... I poster he was going to be the most impactful rookie when most thought it was Bertans... you can look that up... niglets in here acting like they discovered the earth is round in this day !

I clearly remember Murray was your guy. I wanted Brogdon drafted instead, but today's performance by Murray should cheer up all Spurs fans.

FYI, some people still believe the earth is flat. Just Google "flat earth society".

[YGWHI]

Murray is shooting .10 3P% in DLeague and tonight was .60%? Big props to him. :tu

[r0drig0lac]

I disagree.

Murray isnt redundant.

Murray can play defense and be a net positive just on that end alone. Parker & Mills are negatives on that end.

Meanwhile, on offense, Murray is multi dimensional. He can create seperation out of PnRs or breakdown the D in desperate Iso situations -- getting past his man, turning the corner and getting into the beautiful painted area. Hes also shown improvement from 3 shooting the ball.

The only curveball Mills brings is hustle and streaky shooting while getting abused on the defensive end when it matters because hes just too small. Murray had a wider range of postives that can all be curveballs on both ends.

As for next year, Spurs would be dumb making him get most of his minutes at the SG ( his size/ length wouldnt be an advantage on either end). He'd be most effective being the guy, the PG, on both ends of the floor. Defending PGs, and handling the O since hes already the player on the team who creates the most seperation out of the PnR.

I hope the Spurs smell the roses and dont handcuff Murray in a situation to where they play him at a position where his ceiling is lower. All while, paying Prime Dana Barros/ Eddie House 50 million. That would be a mistake.

Let Murray run the 2nd unit next year.
good post

[midnightpulp]

I disagree.

Murray isnt redundant.

Murray can play defense and be a net positive just on that end alone. Parker & Mills are negatives on that end.

Meanwhile, on offense, Murray is multi dimensional. He can create seperation out of PnRs or breakdown the D in desperate Iso situations -- getting past his man, turning the corner and getting into the beautiful painted area. Hes also shown improvement from 3 shooting the ball.

The only curveball Mills brings is hustle and streaky shooting while getting abused on the defensive end when it matters because hes just too small. Murray had a wider range of postives that can all be curveballs on both ends.

As for next year, Spurs would be dumb making him get most of his minutes at the SG ( his size/ length wouldnt be an advantage on either end). He'd be most effective being the guy, the PG, on both ends of the floor. Defending PGs, and handling the O since hes already the player on the team who creates the most seperation out of the PnR.

I hope the Spurs smell the roses and dont handcuff Murray in a situation to where they play him at a position where his ceiling is lower. All while, paying Prime Dana Barros/ Eddie House 50 million. That would be a mistake.

Let Murray run the 2nd unit next year.

:tu Great comparison :lol

[exstatic]

I like Murray, and he has a bright future, but he's still raw as fuck, especially on D. On multiple occasions last night, he was fooled by a rip through, followed by a crossover in the opposite direction and was blown by like a mannequin. A 5'10", 90 YO Jameer Nelson should never be able to get past him, and he did it repeatedly.

[MaNu4Tres]

I like Murray, and he has a bright future, but he's still raw as fuck, especially on D. On multiple occasions last night, he was fooled by a rip through, followed by a crossover in the opposite direction and was blown by like a mannequin. A 5'10", 90 YO Jameer Nelson should never be able to get past him, and he did it repeatedly.

Repeatedly isn't the right word, considering Nelson scored a whopping 5 points on 2 of 7 shooting.

All the best defenders get beat off the dribble from time to time, and its not about one play here or one play there, it's about the big picture and Murray has the skillset to be a net positive defensively. As for last night, I thought he defended the PnR really well most of the time.

[TheDoctor]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=265557&p=8850069&viewfull=1#post8850069

:lmao

GTFOH :rollin

[DMC]

Anyone else feel like 5 or 6 of these gnsf are the same faggot?

[benefactor]

Anyone else feel like 5 or 6 of these gnsf are the same faggot?
Nolyfecatman tbh

[exstatic]

Repeatedly isn't the right word, considering Nelson scored a whopping 5 points on 2 of 7 shooting.

All the best defenders get beat off the dribble from time to time, and its not about one play here or one play there, it's about the big picture and Murray has the skillset to be a net positive defensively. As for last night, I thought he defended the PnR really well most of the time.

When you blow by someone, you can do other things than score.

It wasn't always Nelson. I just used his age and lack of height to make a point.

I recognize that he has the skill set, and just said he was raw.

[SpursIndonesia]

House will absolutely get massacred by Livingston.

We just might have to gamble.

This, the way Livingston has been increasing his productivity this season, and doing very well in the dismantling of the defending champ a few night ago off the bench, i really don't like the match up with Paddy if he can't regain the hot shooting hand by the time we meet them in the play off.

[unleashbaynes]

Pop must be high on him. He never lets rookies play.

[dbestpro]

TP will be the new Manu. Mills will be too expensive to resign. Murray will start next year, and remain in Pop's doghouse throughout the year.

[picnroll]

I was not a big fan of Murray, not because he didn't have a lot of potential but more because I thought he was a couple of years away from being a capable starter. It's a very small sample size but his development appears to be on the fast track. He has the demeanor of a PG in wanting to lead and direct already. He's smart enough not to overplay so far and to defer to Kawhii, Manu and others and get his minutes in not forcing things. Fact is the best chance the Spurs have of getting past the Warriors is if Murray can play well and Spurs should force feed him minutes. Patty should only play the nights he's hot. That said I wish Murray had a mid-range game that wasn't a floater from the free throw line.

[palangi]

Called it. :lmao

With ease to. Chinook little lap dog is so predictable.

[Yuixafun]

I was not a big fan of Murray, not because he didn't have a lot of potential but more because I thought he was a couple of years away from being a capable starter. It's a very small sample size but his development appears to be on the fast track. He has the demeanor of a PG in wanting to lead and direct already. He's smart enough not to overplay so far and to defer to Kawhii, Manu and others and get his minutes in not forcing things. Fact is the best chance the Spurs have of getting past the Warriors is if Murray can play well and Spurs should force feed him minutes. Patty should only play the nights he's hot. That said I wish Murray had a mid-range game that wasn't a floater from the free throw line.

He's in the best place to learn the mid game, with Kawhi and LA, and even Gasol.

He's in the best place to learn defense, with Kawhi, DG, and well the Spurs. Maybe Duncan drops by to visit one and awhile.

He's in the best place to learn to craftiness and moving without the ball, Manu and Mills and the beautiful game.

He's in the best place to learn to attack the paint, with Parker, Manu and even Simmons.

But he has his own attributes as well, like his shake and bake and length.

Imagine this kid grows a couple more inches.

Parker's attacking and quickness to the rim, with his floater.

Manu's passing, euro step and body control, passion.

DG transition defense and blocking.

Mills gravity from the 3 point line and off the ball moving.

Kawhi as mid game mentor and role model.

I'm excited too and know it's just one game... but this seed has found the right soil. Plenty of sunshine in SA too.

[wildbill2u]

This was his best extended outing, albeit against a wounded team. The improvement I saw in his game is that he appears to have "gotten over himself" (i.e. doesn't shoot every time he touches the ball) which is a Holy Commandment to get minutes from Pop. Every rookie thinks he has to star when he goes in for a few minutes, but Murray was much calmer last night, and I think it was because the coaches told him he'd get major minutes unless he seriously went hero.

Having said that, he obviously has been working on his shot with Chip. The crazy sideways twist on the ball on release seems to be gone. Good job, rook. Secondly, his defense was better because he's learned something about rotations and adjusted to the speed of the other guards in the league. Any player on our team would be happy with the stats he had last night. He's obviously putting in the work. If he can pick up the game this fast on a regular basis, he will be earning some rotation minutes later in the season.

t

[offset formation]

Murray is redundant as a backup since he offers what Tony offers in offense ( attacking) Mills the curveball the bench needs.


If anything this game makes me pretty confident that Simmons is gone. Murray is probably going to eat simmons minutes next year.

My god, learn basketball. Murray and Simmons don't play the same position. Simmons normally comes in for Kawhi. They don't compete for the same minutes.

In fact, it's likely they'll be playing on the floor together more often then not.

[TheDoctor]

Already better than GOAT Austin Daye tbh

[Chinook]

Already better than GOAT Austin Daye tbh

:lol I wonder if that dude is still screaming into a pillow somewhere

[TheDoctor]

:lol I wonder if that dude is still screaming into a pillow somewhere

:lol Dude fucking stole Spurs beat writers hearts w/ that story. Genius.

[MultiTroll]

Wonder if Popped had to be strong armed to give Murray a roster spot instead of his beloved BonBon?

[gambit1990]

hopefully parker sits more games.

[cutewizard]

This boy, Murray, has some game fellas!

Totally surprised by his development!

Incredible Spurs coaching staff work right there!

[cutewizard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74X6L0f1sMk

[cd98]

Watching those highlights, the defenders were leaving Murray open with 5 feet of space. I think if Patty Mills had that kind of space, he'd make 6 or 7 threes. Credit to the rookie for hitting shots and being aggressive unlike Anderson and often, Bertrans. But Denver wasn't really guarding him well and obviously didn't have a scouting report. A rookie like this might string along two or three good games before teams start paying attention to them. But once the teams start paying attention, they'll take away the easy stuff and make him doing things he's not comfortable doing. So I wouldn't pencil him in as a big contributor this year. And I wouldn't write Parker's or Mills' obituary yet. Murray's timetable is down the road. Sure he might have a good game at home against the lower level teams in the West, but come playoff time, teams will have him scouted and be ready for him.

Funny enough, I doubt people would be saying such positive things for Parker when he scores 24 points. Good to see that someone other than Kawhi is allowed to score 24 points without being called a ball hog.

[TimDunkem]

^ Murray should also watch tapes of Bonner so he can keep improving his offensive game.

[dabom]

Watching those highlights, the defenders were leaving Murray open with 5 feet of space. I think if Patty Mills had that kind of space, he'd make 6 or 7 threes. Credit to the rookie for hitting shots and being aggressive unlike Anderson and often, Bertrans. But Denver wasn't really guarding him well and obviously didn't have a scouting report. A rookie like this might string along two or three good games before teams start paying attention to them. But once the teams start paying attention, they'll take away the easy stuff and make him doing things he's not comfortable doing. So I wouldn't pencil him in as a big contributor this year. And I wouldn't write Parker's or Mills' obituary yet. Murray's timetable is down the road. Sure he might have a good game at home against the lower level teams in the West, but come playoff time, teams will have him scouted and be ready for him.

Funny enough, I doubt people would be saying such positive things for Parker when he scores 24 points. Good to see that someone other than Kawhi is allowed to score 24 points without being called a ball hog.

The thing is, defenders will give you space if you have the ability to blow past them. That's why kawhi can shoot 3s from anywhere comfortably.

[cd98]

The thing is, defenders will give you space if you have the ability to blow past them. That's why Kawhi can shoot 3s from anywhere comfortably. Yes, but Denver was having his defender double off of Murray and leaving Murray wide open. I don't think they were giving him space because of his ability to drive, I think they were doing it because they didn't think he could shoot. But he did what he was supposed to do, shoot it.

[cd98]

^ Murray should also watch tapes of Bonner so he can keep improving his offensive game. No, that would be stupid. He's not a stretch 4 or 5. But stretch 4 or 5s should watch Bonner play because he made a 10 year career out of being a stretch 4/5 despite not being a particularly great athlete and being a poor to average defender.

[dabom]

Yes, but Denver was having his defender double off of Murray and leaving Murray wide open. I don't think they were giving him space because of his ability to drive, I think they were doing it because they didn't think he could shoot. But he did what he was supposed to do, shoot it.

He wasn't getting the lebron treatment. Dude is a natural driver. You can't guard him up close.

[TimDunkem]

No, that would be stupid. He's not a stretch 4 or 5. But stretch 4 or 5s should watch Bonner play because he made a 10 year career out of being a stretch 4/5 despite not being a particularly great athlete and being a poor to average defender.

:lmao

[cd98]

He wasn't getting the lebron treatment. Dude is a natural driver. You can't guard him up close. Watch that clip. His man wasn't giving him space, he was actively doubling Kawhi.

[dabom]

Watch that clip. His man wasn't giving him space, he was actively doubling Kawhi.

I already watched the highlights and watched the game. I beg to differ.

[r0drig0lac]

No, that would be stupid. He's not a stretch 4 or 5. But stretch 4 or 5s should watch Bonner play because he made a 10 year career out of being a stretch 4/5 despite not being a particularly great athlete and being a poor to average defender.

really?

[palangi]

I already watched the highlights and watched the game. I beg to differ.

CD is just an ignorant hater. He's been proven to be a clown with his assessment of Murray and is making shit up to try and save face

[TimDunkem]

really?
That was his argument when he said Bertans was hesitant and one-dimensional offensively. He said he needed to watch tapes of Bonner to learn how to improve his game within the Spurs offense. :lmao

[SAGirl]

Anyone else feel like 5 or 6 of these gnsf are the same faggot?
Definitely...

[urunobili]

Can we take out the interrogation sign at the end of the thread title?

[dabom]

Definitely...

"Props the shitiest player on the team" shtick. You sure you ain't a troll? :lol

[TimDunkem]

lmao Anderson so bad he can't even take minutes from Manu, Simmons, Bertans, and now Murray. :lmao

[tholdren]

I am in Murray's camp.:toast
Then you know last night was fools gold.

[tholdren]

#murray'sPTmatters

[Chinook]

Murray had a plus-minus of 23. No way that's a fluke.

[tholdren]

Murray had a plus-minus of 23. No way that's a fluke.
Well heres Kyle Anderson - better plus minus, Anderson has to be better.



22
22
2015-12-07 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201512070PHI.html)
22-078
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html)
@
PHI (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHI/2016.html)
W (+51)
1
29:52
2
4
.500
0
0

3
5
.600
0
5
5
1
0
0
0
3
7
5.2
+28

[Chinook]

http://www.americancrocodilesanctuary.org/fish_jaws_hungry_alligator.jpeg

[HarlemHeat37]

Keeping expectations real, this year's Denver Nuggets squad has been one of the worst defensive teams in recent NBA history and they rank last in the league at defending the PG position..IIRC, Parker destroyed them in the first meeting at Denver..

Excited to see how he develops vs. legit teams, though..

[Mnky]

Yes, but Denver was having his defender double off of Murray and leaving Murray wide open. I don't think they were giving him space because of his ability to drive, I think they were doing it because they didn't think he could shoot. But he did what he was supposed to do, shoot it.

Every team does that.. the double has to come somewhere, and it came from all angles. When the double commits, the shooter always has open space. Everyone shooting outside Kawhi and danny get wide open shots all the time. Even mills is left wide open a lot. Just part of the game, for every player waiting at the three. Don't really see how that's a negative or anything.
Everyone shoots better with open space as well. Kind of a generalization you can say about any player really.

[cd98]

That was his argument when he said Bertans was hesitant and one-dimensional offensively. He said he needed to watch tapes of Bonner to learn how to improve his game within the Spurs offense. :lmao I know the notion that Bonner is a scrub player is forever branded in casual Spur fan minds, but despite his deficiencies, he had one elite skill, his shooting, that allowed him to stretch the floor and allowed the Spurs to have great offensive efficiency during his tenure. No one is advocating him as an all-star, but there was a basketball reason for him starting and being a key player for years on one of the best teams in NBA history.

Early in his career though, Bonner was a timid shooter. He passed up open shots and when he established himself as a shooter, teams just chased him off the line and that was the extent of what he could do. But he because a more effective player when he learned what good shots were and stopped passing them up and he learned what to do when he was chased off the line. That didn't make him some kind of a superstar, but it made him effective enough to stay in the league for years and earn a starting job on the Spurs.

Betrans is mostly riding the Spurs bench. So it's obvious that he has some issues that need to be addressed for him to get on the court. He has size like Bonner and he can shoot like Bonner. And yes, he's more athletic than Bonner, but he is also painfully thin to play the 4/5, he passes up good shots, and he was a turnover machine on close outs in the Bucks game, one of the games where he got the most playing time. His role right now is a stretch 4 or 5, and his problem is passing up good shots. He should watch tapes of Bonner in learning what is and is not a good shot to take at the stretch 4 so he stops passing up open shots. And he needs to learn what to do on close outs, be it learn to drive and hit a runner a la Bonner or drive and hit a pull up on the backboard a la Bowen, or at least not turn the ball over like he did against the Bucks in the third quarter that surrendered the Spurs lead and then eventually the game. But because the word "Bonner" is mentioned, some people are programmed to automatically run into "Bonner Scrub" talk and ignore the substance of the points being made.

[gambit1990]

Keeping expectations real, this year's Denver Nuggets squad has been one of the worst defensive teams in recent NBA history and they rank last in the league at defending the PG position..IIRC, Parker destroyed them in the first meeting at Denver..

Excited to see how he develops vs. legit teams, though..
yeah, it was just one game but you can see potential. i hope he gets to play tomorrow.

[cd98]

Every team does that.. the double has to come somewhere, and it came from all angles. When the double commits, the shooter always has open space. Everyone shooting outside Kawhi and danny get wide open shots all the time. Even mills is left wide open a lot. Just part of the game, for every player waiting at the three. Don't really see how that's a negative or anything.
Everyone shoots better with open space as well. Kind of a generalization you can say about any player really. I'd agree. They double off the people who they don't think can shoot. They aren't doubling off of Danny Green or Patty Mills. But they'll double off of Parker or someone else they don't think can shoot. That's not a rip on Murray as the scouting report on him is that he can't shoot. And to his credit, he stepped up and made the shots. But he won't get ignored by a defense if he starts making shots. Against Denver, he was largely ignored.

[Kawhitstorm]

This, the way Livingston has been increasing his productivity this season, and doing very well in the dismantling of the defending champ a few night ago off the bench, i really don't like the match up with Paddy if he can't regain the hot shooting hand by the time we meet them in the play off.

During the season opener, Fatty was either guarding Curry or Ian Clark. Last season he was matched up w/ Barbosa who busted his ass.:lol

IIRC, Kyle was actually guarding Livingston during the 4th quarter when it was basically 12 minutes of garbage time & Manu or Simmons would most likely be matched w/ him in a playoff series. Historically, Fatty has had success against Curry who doesn't try & bully him like Austin Rivers.:lol

vLAsUbPAcCg

[picnroll]

Murray's threes came off:
1) a double of Kawhi by his defender.
2) a contested three over his man
3) a rushed, contested, somewhat panicked three from 3-4 feet behind the line with 5 sec left on the shot clock
4) a classic Spurs baseline penetration by Green with baseline pass to Murray sliding down into the opposite corner.
Don't remember the second miss.

None of this is any different or easier than typical Spurs threes apart from Mills quick, pull up threes

[spurraider21]

Mills 3 point shooting by month

October: 59.1%
November: 39.7%
December: 41.9%
January: 35.7%

Mid needs to stop crying about "the slump". He's still at 42.3% on the season.

[TimDunkem]

I know the notion that Bonner is a scrub player is forever branded in casual Spur fan minds, but despite his deficiencies, he had one elite skill, his shooting, that allowed him to stretch the floor and allowed the Spurs to have great offensive efficiency during his tenure. No one is advocating him as an all-star, but there was a basketball reason for him starting and being a key player for years on one of the best teams in NBA history.

Early in his career though, Bonner was a timid shooter. He passed up open shots and when he established himself as a shooter, teams just chased him off the line and that was the extent of what he could do. But he because a more effective player when he learned what good shots were and stopped passing them up and he learned what to do when he was chased off the line. That didn't make him some kind of a superstar, but it made him effective enough to stay in the league for years and earn a starting job on the Spurs.

Betrans is mostly riding the Spurs bench. So it's obvious that he has some issues that need to be addressed for him to get on the court. He has size like Bonner and he can shoot like Bonner. And yes, he's more athletic than Bonner, but he is also painfully thin to play the 4/5, he passes up good shots, and he was a turnover machine on close outs in the Bucks game, one of the games where he got the most playing time. His role right now is a stretch 4 or 5, and his problem is passing up good shots. He should watch tapes of Bonner in learning what is and is not a good shot to take at the stretch 4 so he stops passing up open shots. And he needs to learn what to do on close outs, be it learn to drive and hit a runner a la Bonner or drive and hit a pull up on the backboard a la Bowen, or at least not turn the ball over like he did against the Bucks in the third quarter that surrendered the Spurs lead and then eventually the game. But because the word "Bonner" is mentioned, some people are programmed to automatically run into "Bonner Scrub" talk and ignore the substance of the points being made.

Except that Bertans isn't hesitant at all and no one subscribes to that myth anymore. The entire premise of your argument is moot.

Also, lol @ the "turnover machine" comment about the Bucks game. He had a grand total of 2 turnovers.

[spurraider21]

At some point we have to give the ******* treatment when people type Bertrans instead of Bertans

[cd98]

Except that Bertans isn't hesitant at all and no one subscribes to that myth anymore. The entire premise of your argument is moot.

Also, lol @ the "turnover machine" comment about the Bucks game. He had a grand total of 2 turnovers. Yes and both of those led to open court dunks that gave the Bucks run they needed to take the lead. And it isn't a myth. He's passed up open shots and I'm not the only one to note that.

[cd98]

At some point we have to give the ******* treatment when people type Bertrans instead of Bertans It wasn't a problem when the NBA just had "Johnson" and "Smith" names.

[look_at_g_shred]

Dude can get to the rim quick, and boy do i mean quick..

[Yuixafun]

3) a rushed, contested, somewhat panicked three from 3-4 feet behind the line with 5 sec left on the shot clock


He was able to draw a late whistle on that though, with a falling back leg sweep on the defender. Shows savvy or just good split second instinct... maybe he's learning from Manu and Kawhi. Another gem in his buckle.

[gambit1990]

tony is questionable for tomorrow :tu

[TXstbobcat]

tony is questionable for tomorrow :tu

If Tony can't play, I am excited to see Murray match up against Irving. Much tougher test than the Nuggets last night.

[palangi]

Except that Bertans isn't hesitant at all and no one subscribes to that myth anymore. The entire premise of your argument is moot.

Also, lol @ the "turnover machine" comment about the Bucks game. He had a grand total of 2 turnovers.

I wouldn't take anything CD says seriously. He has a very ignorant look on basketball talent

[TimDunkem]

Yes and both of those led to open court dunks that gave the Bucks run they needed to take the lead. And it isn't a myth. He's passed up open shots and I'm not the only one to note that.
Every single player in the league has passed up shots. He's a rookie. It happens. That doesn't make him hesistant.

Ridiculous.

[picnroll]

He was able to draw a late whistle on that though, with a falling back leg sweep on the defender. Shows savvy or just good split second instinct... maybe he's learning from Manu and Kawhi. Another gem in his buckle.
No there was another 3 with 5 seconds left he missed and no foul.

[Maddog]

Tony is out tonight

[SpursIndonesia]

Tony is out tonight

So, no TP tonight against the Cavs, correct ? That would be interesting.

[freemeat]

I wouldn't be surprised if Pop is checking to see if the kid is ready to take over the team. Parker was younger when Pop put him in the starting lineup. I'd love to see Murray take the starting gig for good now. He's been working all season on learning the system and he's thriving.

[lilbthebasedgod]

I wouldn't be surprised if Pop is checking to see if the kid is ready to take over the team. Parker was younger when Pop put him in the starting lineup. I'd love to see Murray take the starting gig for good now. He's been working all season on learning the system and he's thriving.
The dude's had two good games ever calm down

[TheDoctor]

I wouldn't be surprised if Pop is checking to see if the kid is ready to take over the team. Parker was younger when Pop put him in the starting lineup. I'd love to see Murray take the starting gig for good now. He's been working all season on learning the system and he's thriving.

Very different scenario man. Before being drafted by the Spurs, Tony was already a Pro. Playing in the FBL and with the NT.

[picnroll]

Should be a good learning experience for Murray one way or another. Dumping Laprovittola means Pop must have some confidence in him.

[tonight...you]

Should be a good learning experience for Murray one way or another. Dumping Laprovittola means Pop must have some confidence in him.
I absolutely love Murray getting these minutes.
I also love him playing more under control and deferring to the starters, but heat seeking those open angles, when he sees them.

This kid has IT. Keep working with Chip and he's got this league by the throat, with Kawhi.

[100%duncan]

Good test tonight. Hope kyrie doesnt torch him

[picnroll]

In truth if Murray only gets slightly torched that will be a good showing.

[midnightpulp]

Criminal he didn't get more playing time tonight. 14 on 7-10 shooting.

When Parker gets back, he definitely earned more backup minutes.

[freemeat]

The dude's had two good games ever calm down

He's the starting PG for this team when Tony's done with it. It's obvious he has the skillset to take over soon.

[lilbthebasedgod]

He's the starting PG for this team when Tony's done with it. It's obvious he has the skillset to take over soon.
Agreed. But Tony is not done with it and wont be until at least 2019. That's enough time to grow

I could see him taking tony's minutes late in the 2017-2018 season but not starting I should say also.

[freemeat]

Agreed. But Tony is not done with it and wont be until at least 2019. That's enough time to grow

I could see him taking tony's minutes late in the 2017-2018 season but not starting I should say also.

I agree that the odds of him taking over any time this season are slim at best. I do think the starting job next season is dependent on the outcome of the Spurs playoff run, though.

[spursistan]

In doghouse when Mills has been stinking up the fuckin joint for two months :lol..

[703 Spurz]

In the last two games combined, Parker has two points on one of seven shooting in 62 minutes. He fucking blows.

[Floyd Pacquiao]

Start Murray. Package porker and Mills for decent point that can defend and run an offense

[spursistan]

I don't care if he's raw; he can't be worse than the late hot garbage of Porker/Paddy..Time to throw him back into fire..

[midnightpulp]

Pop is such an inflexible, mechanical thinker, he'll never roll the dice on Murray unfortunately.

[MaNu4Tres]

Its still crazy to me how some here want to pay Patty 50 million.

[Mikeanaro]

A kid like Murray could be a starter on any crappy team, making nice stats and playing like a young promise but in SA he is a scrub that must earn ¨respect¨, once this old fart is gone that school will be gone for good.

[sasaint]

A kid like Murray could be a starter on any crappy team, making nice stats and playing like a young promise but in SA he is a scrub that must earn ¨respect¨, once this old fart is gone that school will be gone for good.

Tony was no better and no more "ready" in 2001 than Dijon is now. Moreover, Antonio Daniels wasn't as bad in 2001 than Tony is now.

[MaNu4Tres]

Tony was no better and no more "ready" in 2003 than Dijon is now. Moreover, Antonio Daniels wasn't as bad in 2003 than Tony is now.

2001**

[UZER]

2001**

And Pop wasn't Pop yet. No way Stephen Jackson starts on '03 if Pop had his current mindset.

[spursistan]

831728951202631680

[gambit1990]

Pop is such an inflexible, mechanical thinker, he'll never roll the dice on Murray unfortunately.
too bad your parker doesn't sit out more. like when the spurs go on to beat the defending champs and kawhi has a career high.

[spursistan]

Look: he is not the answer; he is not the savior, but the dude can't be in street clothes (likely)in playoffs when Porky/Microwave are stinking up the joint...

[SAGirl]

He's a youngster but Pop chose to stand pat. This youngling has to play...

[midnightpulp]

Look: he is not the answer; he is not the savior, but the dude can't be in street clothes (likely)in playoffs when Porky/Microwave are stinking up the joint...

We have to roll the dice here if there isn't any improvement with the PG rotation. Parker has looked awful since his return and House is still doing his 7 shitty games/1 good game thing.

[SAGirl]

We have to roll the dice here if there isn't any improvement with the PG rotation. Parker has looked awful since his return and House is still doing his 7 shitty games/1 good game thing.
+dleague + Alzheimer Manu.... +Simmons turning into Tony Allen apparently...

[YGWHI]

+dleague + Alzheimer Manu.... +Simmons turning into Tony Allen apparently...

Damn...our guards. :shootme

Just 20 games left in the regular season and the Spurs don't have ANY guard playing consistently well. So worrisome.

[MaNu4Tres]

Murray needs some burn..

[MultiTroll]

Can someone make an "It's not happening" .gif?

[ElNono]

https://media.giphy.com/media/jSnQGLHBrgbRK/giphy.gif

[MultiTroll]

^ :lol gracias

[cutewizard]

agree

free Murray,

and Bertans, too

[sasaint]

We have to roll the dice here if there isn't any improvement with the PG rotation. Parker has looked awful since his return and House is still doing his 7 shitty games/1 good game thing.

Exactly! After Parker's benching last night, I wonder if Pop is finally seeing it, too.

[picnroll]

Downside of Spurs being in the number one seed hunt is Murray won't see time at the end of the year. If it was apparent Spurs were locked into the two seed Murray would likely get a lot of run, maybe, if he showed it, carve out some playoff minutes.

[duncan2k5]

Murray NEEDS to play...lower Parker's minutes...we don't have more years to waste...we KNOW parker won't do well in the playoffs...this "rookies need to get benched to teach then a lesson" mindset is silly... What if the pistons didn't start Prince in the playoffs when he was a rookie? Magic won a finals MVP as a rookie...what if they didn't trust him to play center in that final game? The dude is talented and better than parker right now...give him the experience he will need to help us win a championship THIS year! Parker ALWAYS let's us down in the pkst-season and murray is a hungry ballaholic... He has earned his keep

[south side spur]

Murray NEEDS to play...lower Parker's minutes...we don't have more years to waste...we KNOW parker won't do well in the playoffs...this "rookies need to get benched to teach then a lesson" mindset is silly... What if the pistons didn't start Prince in the playoffs when he was a rookie? Magic won a finals MVP as a rookie...what if they didn't trust him to play center in that final game? The dude is talented and better than parker right now...give him the experience he will need to help us win a championship THIS year! Parker ALWAYS let's us down in the pkst-season and murray is a hungry ballaholic... He has earned his keep

I agree...Murray needs to play. But he has to be coached also , or as you say "taught a lesson". Murray can get his shot off whenever he wants and he looks for it. He can't just come in doing that like he was in the Cleveland game. He was ON that game, but that hasn't been the case recently. First priority is he has to get the others involved. He seems to be understanding this now and Pop got him some minutes last night because he's learning.

But you can't compare Prince to Murray...Prince had a defensive mindset so he fit into that lineup seamlessly. He wasn't looking for his shot and he wasn't running the team. And Magic? Let's not even go there I mean we're talking LeBron type vision and playmaking which Murray doesn't have. Even Murray's handle is a little suspect which I think most of us didn't realize. He was turning the ball over as soon as he'd enter a game. He wasn't focused.

So, why isn't Murray playing more in Austin? You'd think that he needs more playing time right? Maybe Pop knows he has something special here and he just needs some time to understand how to run this team. So he wants him around at all times. He gave him some critical minutes last night. Maybe there's more to come. Otherwise why not just send him to Austin? I think Murray will contribute in the playoffs.

As far as Parker letting the Spurs down I mean who hasn't let us down in the playoffs? You could literally name any current Spur.

[apalisoc_9]

https://media.giphy.com/media/jSnQGLHBrgbRK/giphy.gif

She doesn't swallow....

[duncan2k5]

I agree...Murray needs to play. But he has to be coached also , or as you say "taught a lesson". Murray can get his shot off whenever he wants and he looks for it. He can't just come in doing that like he was in the Cleveland game. He was ON that game, but that hasn't been the case recently. First priority is he has to get the others involved. He seems to be understanding this now and Pop got him some minutes last night because he's learning.

But you can't compare Prince to Murray...Prince had a defensive mindset so he fit into that lineup seamlessly. He wasn't looking for his shot and he wasn't running the team. And Magic? Let's not even go there I mean we're talking LeBron type vision and playmaking which Murray doesn't have. Even Murray's handle is a little suspect which I think most of us didn't realize. He was turning the ball over as soon as he'd enter a game. He wasn't focused.

So, why isn't Murray playing more in Austin? You'd think that he needs more playing time right? Maybe Pop knows he has something special here and he just needs some time to understand how to run this team. So he wants him around at all times. He gave him some critical minutes last night. Maybe there's more to come. Otherwise why not just send him to Austin? I think Murray will contribute in the playoffs.

As far as Parker letting the Spurs down I mean who hasn't let us down in the playoffs? You could literally name any current Spur.

For your Murray point: you don't get acclimated to the intensity of the NBA game by sitting on the sideline...you need trial by fire...getting used to player tendencies... Pressure moments...prince was put in to do what he has become known best for doing...we WANT murray to look for his shot...that's one of the problems with Parker... He can't get into the lane...and he isn't a scoring threat...he isn't even a pass-first pg...Murray has the potential to be great at both scoring and running the team...you don't learn to drive a car on the highway by reading the manual...he needs playing time NOW if we want to win this year...


And every spur has let us down, but none with the track record of parker... Not only has he done it for more years, but his fall offs have been more drastic that everyone else's

[davi78239]

They just assigned him and Bertans to Austin per my alert.

[south side spur]

For your Murray point: you don't get acclimated to the intensity of the NBA game by sitting on the sideline...you need trial by fire...getting used to player tendencies... Pressure moments...prince was put in to do what he has become known best for doing...we WANT murray to look for his shot...that's one of the problems with Parker... He can't get into the lane...and he isn't a scoring threat...he isn't even a pass-first pg...Murray has the potential to be great at both scoring and running the team...you don't learn to drive a car on the highway by reading the manual...he needs playing time NOW if we want to win this year...


And every spur has let us down, but none with the track record of parker... Not only has he done it for more years, but his fall offs have been more drastic that everyone else's

Like I said, I think most of us want him to play more but he has to earn the time which he is currently doing. I like the fact he's playing in Austin again.

As far as the Parker argument that's your opinion and I can respect that. In my opinion Ginobili out ranks Parker in the drastic fall off sense, but I will give credit to Ginobili and his resurrection so to speak almost kind of like Duncan when I thought both were done physically and they bounced back.

Also, while I realize how blessed this franchise has been to find another franchise player in Kawhi in no way am I going to absolve him of "drastic fall offs" in the post season.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that.

[duncan2k5]

They just assigned him and Bertans to Austin per my alert.

Smh...he needs SF minutes over fathead...imagine fathead is not only this bad in the regular season, and afraid to shoot...but imagine when the pressure is on...I'm sure Bertrans will be a better sf defender than fathead is currently...he is longer AND more athletic....PLUS he can dribble and spread the floor...our coaching decisions are trying to be too cute that they are overlooking obvious choices... Sometimes the obvious choice is the best coaching decision

[palangi]

I agree...Murray needs to play. But he has to be coached also , or as you say "taught a lesson". Murray can get his shot off whenever he wants and he looks for it. He can't just come in doing that like he was in the Cleveland game. He was ON that game, but that hasn't been the case recently. First priority is he has to get the others involved. He seems to be understanding this now and Pop got him some minutes last night because he's learning.

But you can't compare Prince to Murray...Prince had a defensive mindset so he fit into that lineup seamlessly. He wasn't looking for his shot and he wasn't running the team. And Magic? Let's not even go there I mean we're talking LeBron type vision and playmaking which Murray doesn't have. Even Murray's handle is a little suspect which I think most of us didn't realize. He was turning the ball over as soon as he'd enter a game. He wasn't focused.

So, why isn't Murray playing more in Austin? You'd think that he needs more playing time right? Maybe Pop knows he has something special here and he just needs some time to understand how to run this team. So he wants him around at all times. He gave him some critical minutes last night. Maybe there's more to come. Otherwise why not just send him to Austin? I think Murray will contribute in the playoffs.

As far as Parker letting the Spurs down I mean who hasn't let us down in the playoffs? You could literally name any current Spur.
You're right. Murray only looks for his shot, but Parker doesnt?

Im sorry but all the writing you did is nothing but bull shit. And a waste of your time.

[bklynspursfan]

Smh...he needs SF minutes over fathead...imagine fathead is not only this bad in the regular season, and afraid to shoot...but imagine when the pressure is on...I'm sure Bertrans will be a better sf defender than fathead is currently...he is longer AND more athletic....PLUS he can dribble and spread the floor...our coaching decisions are trying to be too cute that they are overlooking obvious choices... Sometimes the obvious choice is the best coaching decision

I'd love to see Bertans get mins at the 3. Anderson kinda played himself out of the rotation anyway, so it's more about getting some of Simmons minutes.

But Bertans has struggled defensively. That's why he's not getting minutes, that's what they said on a broadcast a couple weeks ago. Struggling with rotations and what not. We don't know what happens in practices too, so there's that

[SAGirl]

I like that at least he got sent to Austin... I don't see that as a demotion bc he was really playing so little and whatever it was that kept him benched, he needed to work on those things through some playing time. It also helps with rhythm and game conditioning... (which is not the same as treadmill running).

I still feel like this season he could have played more than he did. I don't think he's ready unfortunately and he won't be ready remaining in the bench.

And some guys can act like Tony deserves all the minutes but he really doesn't. When he has flashback Tony games sure.. but those are few and far between and what is more unfortunate is that he's brittle and you don't know when he will be out or for how long.

Much to Pop's chagrin, Murray likely needs to play.

[south side spur]

You're right. Murray only looks for his shot, but Parker doesnt?

Im sorry but all the writing you did is nothing but bull shit. And a waste of your time.

I think we'd both agree there's a difference between a rookie looking for his shot and a 15 year veteran looking for his shot. Does that make it right? No but that's just the way it works. Besides I didn't say he only looks for it just that he does. Pop obviously wants him to be more of a facilitator and he's getting there.

[picnroll]

Murray has shown some passing acumen and the potential to be a solid defender, particularly IF he can add some muscle, but has two shots, a three pointer and a very iffy, low percentage floater. He should get some minutes but he's not the answer at PG this year, good chance there isn't one. The meme is Parker's taking too many shots. He's taking 9 per gsme at an acceptable percentage. That would be fine for a PG IF Spurs had a SG who had a half way decent offense.

[bklynspursfan]

Murray has shown some passing acumen and the potential to be a solid defender, particularly IF he can add some muscle, but has two shots, a three pointer and a very iffy, low percentage floater. He should get some minutes but he's not the answer at PG this year, good chance there isn't one. The meme is Parker's taking too many shots. He's taking 9 per gsme at an acceptable percentage. That would be fine for a PG IF Spurs had a SG who had a half way decent offense.

Exactly

[spurraider21]

She doesn't swallow....does your aunt, in your personal experience?

[MaNu4Tres]

I like that at least he got sent to Austin... I don't see that as a demotion bc he was really playing so little and whatever it was that kept him benched, he needed to work on those things through some playing time.

Here's the thing you and Chinook need to realize.

You guys are looking waaay too far into it. No matter how good DeJounte does, he won't play because of the respect and "it's not fair" to Parker and Mills. Pop views him strictly as a point guard and the point guard of the future.

I see people posting, " Oh if he was good enough he'd play", no it isn't that simple .. not with Pop and not when two players ahead of him have a lot of respect from the front office to the coaches to all the players. If Spurs just had one player ahead of Murray who didn't garner much respect ( like Richard Jefferson in 2011), he would play and maybe start just like Kawhi did in 2011, or just like Tony did in 01'.

It's Pops rationale, you all should know it by now. He did the same shit with Splitter when Splitter was a rookie.

[Chinook]

It's that simple. If Murray were good enough, he'd play. Just like Kawhi. Didn't see Pop respecting Anderson or Jefferson when Kawhi was blazing a trail.

[gambit1990]

It's that simple. If Murray were good enough, he'd play. Just like Kawhi. Didn't see Pop respecting Anderson or Jefferson when Kawhi was blazing a trail.
murray isn't playing because tony is on the team.

[MaNu4Tres]

It's that simple. If Murray were good enough, he'd play. Just like Kawhi. Didn't see Pop respecting Anderson or Jefferson when Kawhi was blazing a trail.

Well, youre wrong here. Its not that simple.

Jefferson never did anything to garner the type of respect Tony and Patty currently have.

And Anderson was a SG that was coming off a serious injury. Cant compare the two.

[MultiTroll]

It's that simple. If Murray were good enough, he'd play. Just like Kawhi. Didn't see Pop respecting Anderson or Jefferson when Kawhi was blazing a trail.
Stop with that nonsense right here and now.
Matt Bonner, playoff starter for 5 games in a 1st round 2009 1-4 beat down by the Mavs.

[DAF86]

It's that simple. If Murray were good enough, he'd play. Just like Kawhi. Didn't see Pop respecting Anderson or Jefferson when Kawhi was blazing a trail.

What MaNu4Tres said, Pop's not gonna bench Tony just like that.

[boutons_deux]

Austin Spurs on TV now? link?

[Mnky]

It's that simple. If Murray were good enough, he'd play. Just like Kawhi. Didn't see Pop respecting Anderson or Jefferson when Kawhi was blazing a trail.

Kawhi was arguably a lottery pick that they traded George hill for(who had a big role) to come in and defend. He was drafted with the intent of playing. Murray was drafted as a luxury. As the team had it's pg rotation already set.

Their situations are nothing alike. Murray has been productive at every opportunity. Pop is coaching him and molding his character.

Pop is also training Kawhi to be the focal point on offense. We all know his rotation and squads change constantly in the playoffs. Mills has closed with kawhi, he is the more reliable 3 pt shooter, even if he's been in a slump, and compliments kawhi on his development better than the other two, since they're ball dominant guards.

[Chinook]

Kawhi wasn't a lottery pick. While he was traded for and obviously highly coveted, he played at a position with multiple guys already on the team. Murray is probably the most coveted rookie since Kawhi, and he has a much clearer path to minutes than Kawhi had to starting. Just like with Dedmon, Murray's level of play will determine his minutes. Pop has a lot of issues, but he isn't anti-meritocratic.

Fans confuse their love and hope for guys with actual performance. Murray's been the worst guard on the team besides Forbes. That shouldn't be close to the case next year, and the extent to which he has improved already is very encouraging. His stats outside of his rate numbers and low-sample 3P% are awful. The team play noticeably worse with him on the court. We've seen flashes, and that's really nice. But that's not enough to make up for the rest of the package.

If there wasn't so much god-damned Parker hate on this forum, this would be a relatively minor movement like freeing De Colo was. If Murray pulled a Leonard or a Dedmon or a Green or a Mills and actually earned his freaking minutes, that would one thing. None of those guys got spots because of their potential. They all worked through their issues in their bit roles before taking advantage of the bigger opportunities. Fans are asking to purposefully make the team worse in the hopes that it eventually gets better. I can't remember the last time they did that when money wasn't involved.

[Chinook]

That said, I liked the way he played last night. I didn't want Pop to take him out, though Patty made him look like a genius. Murray doing that and getting minutes over Simmons seems like a much better thing to hope for. Even against NO, Murray seemed to play best as the co-PG. May as well start him instead of Green rather than instead of Tony.

[DPG21920]

Chinook is correct here and this is coming from someone that thinks Murray should be getting more minutes.

[bklynspursfan]

That said, I liked the way he played last night. I didn't want Pop to take him out, though Patty made him look like a genius. Murray doing that and getting minutes over Simmons seems like a much better thing to hope for. Even against NO, Murray seemed to play best as the co-PG. May as well start him instead of Green rather than instead of Tony.

Agree with this & your longer post. :tu

[palangi]

It's that simple. If Murray were good enough, he'd play. Just like Kawhi. Didn't see Pop respecting Anderson or Jefferson when Kawhi was blazing a trail.

I guess you glossed over the point of they weren't respected like Tony or patty. Murray is being held back more for who is in front of him rather than ability. And no doubt may needs to develop and grow more.

[palangi]

Agree with this & your longer post. :tu

You guys need to understand he is a PG not a SG. He isn't playing for Simmons. That's not his position.

[DPG21920]

I guess you glossed over the point of they weren't respected like Tony or patty. Murray is being held back more for who is in front of him rather than ability. And no doubt may needs to develop and grow more.

Even if that were true (I don't think it is because Pop is now benching TP in crunch time for Mills) where would you rank Murray's play this year out of the guards?

He's been the worst guard on the team (whether you want to make excuses, valid or otherwise, as to why).

[bklynspursfan]

You guys need to understand he is a PG not a SG. He isn't playing for Simmons. That's not his position.

It doesn't really matter honestly. Teams have played 2 PGs before and been successful. Gotta be versatile on this team anyway

[Chinook]

Playing with Manu should be the same as playing with Tony. If he's the sixth man next season, he'd be doing it for stretches anyway. I find it hilarious that people keep wanting him to get time, but they only want him to do so in situations where the absolute most pressure is on him. Having another ball-handler to split duties with would be great for his development, as would learning to play off the ball and defending bigger players. Murray should absolutely work toward being a more well-rounded role-player before he can get star-in-waiting treatment. Not everyone is Duncan. Kawhi was a role-player for years

[MaNu4Tres]

Even if that were true (I don't think it is because Pop is now benching TP in crunch time for Mills) where would you rank Murray's play this year out of the guards?

He's been the worst guard on the team (whether you want to make excuses, valid or otherwise, as to why).

Pop benching Tony for Mills, is not the same as Pop benching Tony for Murray. Pop would never bench his grandson, hall of famer, Tony Parker for a rookie. That would be disrespectful to Tony. Every opportunity Pop has given Murray this year he's performed well above expectations. His numbers when he starts and plays 20 + minutes are better than Parker and Pattys.

[palangi]

Pop benching Tony for Mills, is not the same as Pop benching Tony for Murray. Pop would never bench his grandson, hall of famer, Tony Parker for a rookie. That would be disrespectful to Tony. Every opportunity Pop has given Murray this year he's performed well above expectations. His numbers when he starts and plays 20 + minutes are better than Parker and Pattys.

Yeah no question when given the opportunity and time Murray has shown well. I don't get the content he is the worst guard. DG is getting 30 minutes a game and getting 6 points. And not much else. Patty and parker combine for 6 points last night. That's fire?

[palangi]

I think playing PG is really good for his development.
I'd guarding bigger players somehow develops you. ..let's just put him at PF? Hell really develop then. I remember when toby had to too...:bang

[TheGreatYacht]

Just shot 4-19 in Austin

[TD 21]

Chinook is correct here.

:tu

Parker's issues are his inability to stay healthy and the fact that any minor ailment renders him useless. The rare stretches he's both healthy and in rhythm, while no longer good enough, he's still clearly the best point guard on the roster.

[dabom]

:tu

Parker's issues are his inability to stay healthy and the fact that any minor ailment renders him useless. The rare stretches he's both healthy and in rhythm, while no longer good enough, he's still clearly the best point guard on the roster.



201
Jonas Valanciunas (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6477/jonas-valanciunas), C
TOR
61
26.1
-1.20
0.31
-0.89
2.16


202
Darren Collison (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3973/darren-collison), PG
SAC
53
30.9
0.76
-1.66
-0.90
2.20


203
Jeremy Lin (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin), PG
BKN
17
22.8
-0.86
-0.07
-0.93
0.51


204
Corey Brewer (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3191/corey-brewer), SF
HOU/LAL
62
15.5
-1.64
0.70
-0.94
1.34


205
Mike Tobey (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2982337/mike-tobey), C
CHA
2
12.5
-1.90
0.96
-0.94
0.03


206
Chinanu Onuaku (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3147366/chinanu-onuaku), PF
HOU
2
5.0
-1.63
0.65
-0.98
0.02


207
Tony Parker (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/1015/tony-parker), PG
SA
47
25.8
-0.46
-0.53
-0.99
1.55


208
Anthony Tolliver (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3276/anthony-tolliver), PF
SAC
49
23.3
-0.04
-0.96
-1.00
1.49


209
Damian Jones (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3064559/damian-jones), C
GS
8
5.6
-1.78
0.76
-1.02
0.06


210
Jordan Hill (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3994/jordan-hill), PF
MIN
5
8.0
-1.90
0.86
-1.04
0.05


211
Josh Huestis (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2531364/josh-huestis), SF
OKC
1
7.0
-1.68
0.63
-1.05
0.01


212
Devin Booker (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3136193/devin-booker), SG
PHX
61
34.5
1.08
-2.13
-1.05
2.70


213
Mirza Teletovic (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4385/mirza-teletovic), PF
MIL
51
15.6
-1.17
0.09
-1.08
1.00


214
Brice Johnson (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2982330/brice-johnson), F
LAC
1
3.0
-1.92
0.84
-1.08
0.00


215
Skal Labissiere (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3936296/skal-labissiere), PF
SAC
12
9.8
-1.60
0.52
-1.08
0.13


216
Luis Scola (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/1781/luis-scola), PF
BKN
36
12.8
-0.80
-0.29
-1.09
0.62


217
Anderson Varejao (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2419/anderson-varejao), C
GS
14
6.6
-1.74
0.65
-1.09
0.10


218
J.R. Smith (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2444/j.r.-smith), SG
CLE
21
28.9
-1.15
0.03
-1.12
0.79


219
Al Jefferson (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2389/al-jefferson), C
IND
57
14.6
-0.57
-0.57
-1.14
1.04


220
Langston Galloway (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2530572/langston-galloway), SG
NO/SAC
57
19.9
0.63
-1.77
-1.14
1.41







52
Pau Gasol (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/996/pau-gasol), C
SA
44
26.4
-0.06
1.96
1.90
3.39


53
Al Horford (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3213/al-horford), C
BOS
50
32.8
1.09
0.79
1.88
5.00


54
Dwight Howard (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2384/dwight-howard), C
ATL
56
29.3
-0.60
2.46
1.86
4.99


55
Jrue Holiday (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3995/jrue-holiday), PG
NO
47
32.8
1.12
0.74
1.86
4.74


56
Damian Lillard (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6606/damian-lillard), PG
POR
56
36.0
3.85
-2.03
1.82
6.05


57
Rudy Gay (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3005/rudy-gay), SF
SAC
30
33.8
-0.04
1.83
1.79
3.12


58
Malcolm Brogdon (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2566769/malcolm-brogdon), SG
MIL
61
25.9
2.03
-0.27
1.76
4.57


59
Mason Plumlee (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2488653/mason-plumlee), C
DEN/POR
61
27.3
1.11
0.64
1.75
5.03


60
Patty Mills (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4004/patty-mills), PG
SA
60
21.6
2.82
-1.09
1.73
3.78

[dabom]

Where the fuck does porker get this benefit that he is the best PG on the team. Patty Mills is way better than Porker right now. :lmao

[Mr. Body]

Murray isn't close to being ready to play in the NBA. He needs an off-season to work on his shot and add muscle. He might be ready to contribute a little next year, hopefully more. But he sure as hell ain't ready for minutes now.

[TD 21]

201
Jonas Valanciunas (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6477/jonas-valanciunas), C
TOR
61
26.1
-1.20
0.31
-0.89
2.16


202
Darren Collison (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3973/darren-collison), PG
SAC
53
30.9
0.76
-1.66
-0.90
2.20


203
Jeremy Lin (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4299/jeremy-lin), PG
BKN
17
22.8
-0.86
-0.07
-0.93
0.51


204
Corey Brewer (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3191/corey-brewer), SF
HOU/LAL
62
15.5
-1.64
0.70
-0.94
1.34


205
Mike Tobey (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2982337/mike-tobey), C
CHA
2
12.5
-1.90
0.96
-0.94
0.03


206
Chinanu Onuaku (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3147366/chinanu-onuaku), PF
HOU
2
5.0
-1.63
0.65
-0.98
0.02


207
Tony Parker (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/1015/tony-parker), PG
SA
47
25.8
-0.46
-0.53
-0.99
1.55


208
Anthony Tolliver (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3276/anthony-tolliver), PF
SAC
49
23.3
-0.04
-0.96
-1.00
1.49


209
Damian Jones (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3064559/damian-jones), C
GS
8
5.6
-1.78
0.76
-1.02
0.06


210
Jordan Hill (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3994/jordan-hill), PF
MIN
5
8.0
-1.90
0.86
-1.04
0.05


211
Josh Huestis (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2531364/josh-huestis), SF
OKC
1
7.0
-1.68
0.63
-1.05
0.01


212
Devin Booker (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3136193/devin-booker), SG
PHX
61
34.5
1.08
-2.13
-1.05
2.70


213
Mirza Teletovic (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4385/mirza-teletovic), PF
MIL
51
15.6
-1.17
0.09
-1.08
1.00


214
Brice Johnson (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2982330/brice-johnson), F
LAC
1
3.0
-1.92
0.84
-1.08
0.00


215
Skal Labissiere (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3936296/skal-labissiere), PF
SAC
12
9.8
-1.60
0.52
-1.08
0.13


216
Luis Scola (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/1781/luis-scola), PF
BKN
36
12.8
-0.80
-0.29
-1.09
0.62


217
Anderson Varejao (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2419/anderson-varejao), C
GS
14
6.6
-1.74
0.65
-1.09
0.10


218
J.R. Smith (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2444/j.r.-smith), SG
CLE
21
28.9
-1.15
0.03
-1.12
0.79


219
Al Jefferson (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2389/al-jefferson), C
IND
57
14.6
-0.57
-0.57
-1.14
1.04


220
Langston Galloway (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2530572/langston-galloway), SG
NO/SAC
57
19.9
0.63
-1.77
-1.14
1.41







52
Pau Gasol (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/996/pau-gasol), C
SA
44
26.4
-0.06
1.96
1.90
3.39


53
Al Horford (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3213/al-horford), C
BOS
50
32.8
1.09
0.79
1.88
5.00


54
Dwight Howard (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2384/dwight-howard), C
ATL
56
29.3
-0.60
2.46
1.86
4.99


55
Jrue Holiday (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3995/jrue-holiday), PG
NO
47
32.8
1.12
0.74
1.86
4.74


56
Damian Lillard (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/6606/damian-lillard), PG
POR
56
36.0
3.85
-2.03
1.82
6.05


57
Rudy Gay (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/3005/rudy-gay), SF
SAC
30
33.8
-0.04
1.83
1.79
3.12


58
Malcolm Brogdon (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2566769/malcolm-brogdon), SG
MIL
61
25.9
2.03
-0.27
1.76
4.57


59
Mason Plumlee (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/2488653/mason-plumlee), C
DEN/POR
61
27.3
1.11
0.64
1.75
5.03


60
Patty Mills (http://www.espn.com/nba/player/_/id/4004/patty-mills), PG
SA
60
21.6
2.82
-1.09
1.73
3.78




I know the numbers and this list is irrelevant since it doesn't factor in my qualifiers: the rare stretches he's healthy and in rhythm.

[south side spur]

Kawhi wasn't a lottery pick. While he was traded for and obviously highly coveted, he played at a position with multiple guys already on the team. Murray is probably the most coveted rookie since Kawhi, and he has a much clearer path to minutes than Kawhi had to starting.

How can Murray have the clearer path to minutes than Kawhi to starting when Jefferson and Jackson played a combined 62 games Kawhi's rookie year and Jackson wasn't even on the team until March? Is your argument James Anderson was in the way?

Sure Parker isn't playing great and Mills has been up and down but where were the minutes going to be had? If anything their respective pathways to starting or minutes are a a wash but it seemed like it was laid out for Kawhi to slide right in the starting lineup.

In my opinion Murray should be playing WITH Mills but Ginobili and Simmons are obviously ahead of Murray in that respect so I'm not seeing this easier pathway to minutes you're seeing.

[dabom]

I know the numbers and this list is irrelevant since it doesn't factor in my qualifiers: the rare stretches he's healthy and in rhythm.

But that's part of him as a player. He isn't. And you shouldn't gloss over it. :lol

[picnroll]

Murray needs to mothball the floater.

[Chinook]

How can Murray have the clearer path to minutes than Kawhi to starting when Jefferson and Jackson played a combined 62 games Kawhi's rookie year and Jackson wasn't even on the team until March? Is your argument James Anderson was in the way?

Sure Parker isn't playing great and Mills has been up and down but where were the minutes going to be had? If anything their respective pathways to starting or minutes are a a wash but it seemed like it was laid out for Kawhi to slide right in the starting lineup.

In my opinion Murray should be playing WITH Mills but Ginobili and Simmons are obviously ahead of Murray in that respect so I'm not seeing this easier pathway to minutes you're seeing.

They played 66 games that year. Don't be disingenuous.

[TD 21]

But that's part of him as a player. He isn't. And you shouldn't gloss over it. :lol

I know and I'm not. I'm just saying, that's not reason enough to bench him in favor of a raw rookie. Not on a team with championship aspirations.

It's unfortunate and I have no confidence in it actually happening, but they just have to hope he's both healthy and in rhythm and can remain so throughout the playoffs.

[dabom]

I know and I'm not. I'm just saying, that's not reason enough to bench him in favor of a raw rookie. Not on a team with championship aspirations.

But you can't base the best PG on the team using "ifs". You have to use the "whole body of games" including for the fact that you also sit out games. That's not even bringing in production to contract ratio. Tony Parker is not the best PG on the team.

[TD 21]

But you can't base the best PG on the team using "ifs". You have to use the "whole body of games" including for the fact that you also sit out games. That's not even bringing in production to contract ratio. Tony Parker is not the best PG on the team.

Like you said a while back, under one of your alts, too many people can't properly interpret advanced stats. Mills is better in his role than Parker is in his, but that doesn't make him a better player necessarily. Besides, Mills is only a point guard defensively. Murray is still learning to be a point guard offensively. The only two guards on the roster than can run an offense, are still Parker and Ginobili . . . and that's why this team isn't a contender.

[dabom]

Like you said a while back, under one of your alts, too many people can't properly interpret advanced stats. Mills is better in his role than Parker is in his, but that doesn't make him a better player necessarily. Besides, Mills is only a point guard defensively. Murray is still learning to be a point guard offensively. The only two guards on the roster than can run an offense, are still Parker and Ginobili . . . and that's why this team isn't a contender.

The team is a contender but 30mil on Porker and Manu to production wise, we could be doing better.

[south side spur]

They played 66 games that year. Don't be disingenuous.

I apologize for that but can we at least agree that Murray didn't have the easier pathway? Again Jackson wasn't signed until March.

[Chinook]

I apologize for that but can we at least agree that Murray didn't have the easier pathway? Again Jackson wasn't signed until March.

Yes, he has an easier pathway. I wouldn't have said it if I didn't believe it. They traded Jefferson for Jackson. They always had a guy whom they could start. And they had Green, Manu and Anderson as options. Murray just has to beat Simmons. Maybe Kyle too.

[DAF86]

Yes, he has an easier pathway. I wouldn't have said it if I didn't believe it. They traded Jefferson for Jackson. They always had a guy whom they could start. And they had Green, Manu and Anderson as options. Murray just has to beat Simmons. Maybe Kyle too.

Nah, Murray has to beat Tony and Mills. Pop's not going to bench his 15 years hall of fame PG and Mills delivered as the backup PG. So no, Murray didn't have an easy path to cracking the rotation.

[Chinook]

Nah, Murray has to beat Tony and Mills.

No, he doesn't. He'd need to do that to start at PG, not to get into the guard rotation in general. To do that he just needs to be the 10th-best player.

[Cry Havoc]

No, he doesn't. He'd need to do that to start at PG, not to get into the guard rotation in general. To do that he just needs to be the 10th-best player.

Mills is still a clearly better player, but Murray has already shown he's more of a PG than Patty will ever be, sadly (or optimistically). I really hope he continues to develop.

[DAF86]

No, he doesn't. He'd need to do that to start at PG, not to get into the guard rotation in general. To do that he just needs to be the 10th-best player.

Not in Pop's mind. Murray is a PG and got drafted as such. Playing him as a winger would take away some of the advantages he has as a PG.

[Chinook]

Mills is still a clearly better player, but Murray has already shown he's more of a PG than Patty will ever be, sadly (or optimistically). I really hope he continues to develop.

Maybe Murray's better able to run an offense and free-lance. But Mills has things he can do reliably with the ball to get assists, which is why his A:TO is much better. Patty can leverage his scoring ability to get guys open, and DeJounte is not good enough in that regard to do the same thing. I would never say Mills is a PG in a meaningful sense, and Murray definitely has more potential, but I won't go as far as to say Murray is a better PG now. He has flashes and is also prone to being a disaster.

[Chinook]

Not in Pop's mind. Murray is a PG and got drafted as such. Playing him as a winger would take away some of the advantages he has as a PG.

Why is this an issue? He's played Parker at the two. He played Neal at the one. He played Hill at the two. Pop clearly doesn't care about making sure Murray plays only one position. That's just not how basketball works. Murray would likely play next to another PG for stretches no matter how good he is. Curry and Irving do it all the time. This just a coping mechanism in my mind.

And who cares if he will not have the same physical advantages on the wing? Is Murray having to learn to play without being able to depend on his size not a good thing? Hill played SF for the Spurs at points. Murray would be well served to learn the two's game on both ends, whether he ends up playing a ton at SG once he becomes an established player or not. He'll be doing plenty of off-guard work with Kawhi handling the ball, and he'll have to switch onto bigger guys all the time in the Spurs' defensive scheme. No one is JUST a PG nowadays.

[alpha_HaZE]

Take it easy guys, he just freed Dedmon, one step at a time. Tony is still very valuable to this team.

[Cry Havoc]

Maybe Murray's better able to run an offense and free-lance. But Mills has things he can do reliably with the ball to get assists, which is why his A:TO is much better. Patty can leverage his scoring ability to get guys open, and DeJounte is not good enough in that regard to do the same thing. I would never say Mills is a PG in a meaningful sense, and Murray definitely has more potential, but I won't go as far as to say Murray is a better PG now. He has flashes and is also prone to being a disaster.

He's a better pure PG. Mills's game is entirely from his shooting. If he's not hitting, he's really hurting the Spurs. But he's still a much better player than 20 year old talented prospect, no argument there.

[south side spur]

So how is that an easier path to minutes if Murray has not only Parker and Mills to contend with at point but also Green, Ginobili, and Simmons at the 2? The minutes just aren't there. Kawhi just had Jefferson who was trash and Anderson? It was gift wrapped for Kawhi to start.

[DAF86]

Why is this an issue? He's played Parker at the two. He played Neal at the one. He played Hill at the two. Pop clearly doesn't care about making sure Murray plays only one position. That's just not how basketball works. Murray would likely play next to another PG for stretches no matter how good he is. Curry and Irving do it all the time. This just a coping mechanism in my mind.

And who cares if he will not have the same physical advantages on the wing? Is Murray having to learn to play without being able to depend on his size not a good thing? Hill played SF for the Spurs at points. Murray would be well served to learn the two's game on both ends, whether he ends up playing a ton at SG once he becomes an established player or not. He'll be doing plenty of off-guard work with Kawhi handling the ball, and he'll have to switch onto bigger guys all the time in the Spurs' defensive scheme. No one is JUST a PG nowadays.

I don't know, ask Pop. To me it's clear he doesn't want to play Murray at the wing 'cause he hasn't even tried it, and don't come at me with the "he's not good enough" shit 'cause that's clearly not true. When Tony returned, after his long injury break in which Murray shined, it was the perfect moment for Pop to mantain Dejounte in the rotation as a wing, specially 'cause Simmons was injured at that moment if I'm not mistaken, but he didn't. Why didn't he ride Murray's high on that moment? Only reasonable explanation is 'cause he just doesn't see Murray as a wing.

[SAGirl]

I don't entirely disagree or agree with Chinook or Manu4tres. I am in between bc I think he didn't really get the chance this season. It's just not his time and he's raw. The sign is that he was catching a rhythm and playing very well considering limited samples and soon as that happened he was benched not to be seen again. He didn't deserved to be benched back then. It just happened bc he wasn't going to displace Tony or anyone else this season... it wasn't realistic.

He wasn't drafted as a defensive specialist or a niche guy. To get the best advantage of his talent he needs to develop his game with the ball and it wasn't going to happen this season bc he was bound to struggle. I tend to think he'd kept getting better bc we didn't see a rookie wall. He never really got much of a chance though.

So it is what it is. He has more time to improve bc he came in with areas that needed improvement.

Next season we shall see what happens.

[SAGirl]

No, he doesn't. He'd need to do that to start at PG, not to get into the guard rotation in general. To do that he just needs to be the 10th-best player.
Not really. He's a 3rd string PG.
I can make a compelling case that the 10th best player has actually been Davis Bertans.

ppl want him to play as a wing too and displace Simmons who can't shoot and may be problematic in the playoffs... He's not going to do that though bc he's a big. He's the 5th big and he's blocked in playing time by guys who are better at his position, or quite simply are playing so well the team is winning and they don't deserve to be benched. Playing guys out of position does take away their advantages. It's something they can do in weird lineups by the opponents, and maybe if there are injuries there's no other option.

I think Murray can give minutes as a wing personally, but he's not ideal bc he's too skinny right this moment... and he's still learning how to deal with bigger, stronger guys. Spurs switch everything a lot so he'd have to guard a lot of different guys... but he's not better than Simmons at that (and neither is Davis on defense, who is still learning to execute what Pop wants on D)... Anyways the point is that he has the good luck to have been allocated a spot for development, same as Davis, which means he has a niche and bodes well for him. Kyle has been all over the map and ended up nowhere that way.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Murray is a PG who has a 5 TO/per 36 mins ratio and 1.1 assist to turnover. That's worse than anyone notable, bar Dedmon. It's bad.

He's shown flashes and it's clear why they like him but he's far from being a contributor. He should be playing more, but in Austin. I think him being glued to the bench lately hasn't been good for him, he should play regularly in Austin and make his turnovers there until he's ready to go next year or the year after.

[Chinook]

I don't know, ask Pop. To me it's clear he doesn't want to play Murray at the wing 'cause he hasn't even tried it, and don't come at me with the "he's not good enough" shit 'cause that's clearly not true.

It's clearly true to people who actually remember his performance and don't just act like his good/decent moments carry the day. Murry hasn't been good, and all that bullshit people try to peddle about DeJounte's record doesn't actually matter. The Spurs are great at compensating, especially in designated rest games. It's been that way for a half-dozen years now.


When Tony returned, after his long injury break in which Murray shined, it was the perfect moment for Pop to mantain Dejounte in the rotation as a wing, specially 'cause Simmons was injured at that moment if I'm not mistaken, but he didn't. Why didn't he ride Murray's high on that moment?

Because he wasn't good enough. Even when Murray starts, Mills gets the bulk of the minutes and all of the crunch-time reps. That should tell you that Pop thinks Murray is definitely worse. You can disagree with him (how, I don't know), but it's obvious that DeJounte is not a good player held down but a bit player who's shown flashes.


Only reasonable explanation is 'cause he just doesn't see Murray as a wing.

I feel like I've been dropped in some alternate reality where Pop hasn't actually been Pop over the years. We're talking about a dude who's played a three-PG lineup before. The same dude who was gushing about a Parker/Kidd starting back court. The guy who had the Parker/Ford "Proto-death Lineup". It doesn't matter what the hell he sees Murray as. He'd play two PGs together if that is what gave him the best chance to win. Hell, he often closes with his two best play-making guards as it is, and damned sure did that before those two got old.

Pop can be wrong, and DeJounte could be the missing piece to this year's puzzle if only he got starting minutes. I wouldn't believe that for a second, but I've been wrong before. But shit, to act like Pop would stick to this whole "he's a PG and thus will only play PG minutes even if there are two-guard minutes available" idea comes out of Spurs fanfiction.

[MultiTroll]

Because he wasn't good enough. Even when Murray starts, Mills gets the bulk of the minutes and all of the crunch-time reps. That should tell you that Pop thinks Murray is definitely worse. You can disagree with him (how, I don't know), but it's obvious that DeJounte is not a good player held down but a bit player who's shown flashes.
Murray has started and gotten 20+ minutes only about 5 games. 5-0, most notably the Cleveland win. Almost every one the Spurs have a nice lead by halftime and Murray played very well.
That *CIA Pop* decided to limit his minutes is not because Murray played poorly nor got outplayed by Patty. He didn't.
His assist/turnover ratio would undoubtedly get better as he gets more on court time with the starters. It already is better in just these 5 games where he got more minutes.

Bares repeating, Matt Bonner started all 5 playoff games in not-that-long-ago's 2011s 1-4 1st round blowout.
"Pop always gives playing time according to merit."
"Pop treats everyone the same, he doesn't have pets."
Bullshit myths.

[Chinook]

Murray has started and gotten 20+ minutes only about 5 games. 5-0, most notably the Cleveland win. Almost every one the Spurs have a nice lead by halftime and Murray played very well.

Think about how trivial what you're saying is. You're saying every time Murray's played well enough to get extended minutes, he's played well. Well, duh. If he played like shit, he would have been benched, like he's been in quite a few games. This is just proof that Pop will ride a hot hand and reward play. Nothing about those games forced Pop to play Murray a ton if he didn't want to.


That *CIA Pop* decided to limit his minutes is not because Murray played poorly nor got outplayed by Patty.

Yep.


His assist/turnover ratio would undoubtedly get better as he gets more on court time with the starters.

Hopefully, but you know what would get worse? The A:TO of the starting lineup (along with other things).


It already is better in just these 5 games where he got more minutes.

Yeah, it was 1.3:1 as a starter.


Bares repeating, Matt Bonner started all 5 playoff games in not-that-long-ago's 2011s 1-4 1st round blowout.

It was 2-4. Not a blowout, but definitely a disappointment. People want to remember this as a year where Bonner was horrible and Splitter was good. But in reality, Bonner was pretty good and Splitter was horrible but showed flashes of brilliance. The Spurs lost the front-court battle in that series because Tim was going through his Done-can phase. He just couldn't handle Z-Bo. Matt had what was arguably his best post-season that year. His net rating was 28. Fucking 28. Highest WS/48 on the team. Better on/offs than Tim and Tiago.

Yes, it bares repeating that if Spurs fans hate a player, they will make up an alternative history.


"Pop always gives playing time according to merit."

I don't think anyone's ever said this. But I don't really know of anyone who's become anything more than a replaceable rotation player who couldn't get off Pop's bench. Murray's a semi-prized first-rounder -- can't get off the bench. Players like Neal and RMJ come out of the woods -- get rotation spots.


"Pop treats everyone the same, he doesn't have pets."

You should know that as a Green homer, I don't believe that for a second. In fact, it's very clear that Murray is Pop's new "pet".

[MultiTroll]

I meant 2009 Playoff Bonner.
My bad.
Started all 5 games.
.217 and .231 along with his signature D.
and Popped left the F'r in the games.

[MultiTroll]

Think about how trivial what you're saying is. You're saying every time Murray's played well enough to get extended minutes, he's played well. Well, duh. If he played like shit, he would have been benched, like he's been in quite a few games. This is just proof that Pop will ride a hot hand and reward play. Nothing about those games forced Pop to play Murray a ton if he didn't want to.

You should know that as a Green homer, I don't believe that for a second. In fact, it's very clear that Murray is Pop's new "pet".
Another poster had a direct quote from Pop that he does not believe in the hot hand.

Very clear that Parker is Pops old pet.
Also Ginobili, who absolutely should play. Except when he is Alzheimers GNob and the problem is Popped waits until the game is lost instead of pulling GNob during one of his Alzheimers episodes. Thanks for farking Tim Duncan and us out of 2013s in the bag Championship.

[Chinook]

I meant 2009 Playoff Bonner.
My bad.
Started all 5 games.
.217 and .231 along with his signature D.
and Popped left the F'r in the games.

Who should have played more? Every big besides Duncan and Fabra was awful. And Oberto was so done that they traded him away in the RJ deal that off-season. And that was obviously not a case of Pop favoring Matt over Oberto because of seniority. He was on the team for a year-and-a-half before the team traded for Bonner.

I agree Matt sucked that year, but so did the entire front court. That's why they lobbied for Gooden during the buyout period, drafted Blair and sign Dice and Theo that summer.


Another poster had a direct quote from Pop that he does not believe in the hot hand.

Pop may well have a quote that says that. But either it's in a different context or Pop was lying his ass off. He like every other coach will give guys more run if they're playing well. All you have to do is look at the splits for bit players.


Very clear that Parker is Pops old pet.

Yeah, from like 2005. He has a new one now. He doesn't let his old pet close out most games.

[duncan2k5]

U are nuts...he is more than ready for minutes...which point guards have u been watching? Waaah worse point guards are getting minutes

[Chinook]

U are nuts...he is more than ready for minutes...which point guards have u been watching? Waaah worse point guards are getting minutes

I'm sure they are in Austin.

[DAF86]

It's clearly true to people who actually remember his performance and don't just act like his good/decent moments carry the day. Murry hasn't been good, and all that bullshit people try to peddle about DeJounte's record doesn't actually matter. The Spurs are great at compensating, especially in designated rest games. It's been that way for a half-dozen years now.



Because he wasn't good enough. Even when Murray starts, Mills gets the bulk of the minutes and all of the crunch-time reps. That should tell you that Pop thinks Murray is definitely worse. You can disagree with him (how, I don't know), but it's obvious that DeJounte is not a good player held down but a bit player who's shown flashes.



I feel like I've been dropped in some alternate reality where Pop hasn't actually been Pop over the years. We're talking about a dude who's played a three-PG lineup before. The same dude who was gushing about a Parker/Kidd starting back court. The guy who had the Parker/Ford "Proto-death Lineup". It doesn't matter what the hell he sees Murray as. He'd play two PGs together if that is what gave him the best chance to win. Hell, he often closes with his two best play-making guards as it is, and damned sure did that before those two got old.

Pop can be wrong, and DeJounte could be the missing piece to this year's puzzle if only he got starting minutes. I wouldn't believe that for a second, but I've been wrong before. But shit, to act like Pop would stick to this whole "he's a PG and thus will only play PG minutes even if there are two-guard minutes available" idea comes out of Spurs fanfiction.

Murray's numbers don't look good because 1) he was beyond awful to start the season (Lapro was getting minutes over him) and 2) because a good chunk of his minutes are meaningless garbage time. When he got his chance of playing regular minutes over an extended period of time, the kid delivered. I don't know why the fuck you are acting like he has been so bad to the point of not even being worth trying him at the wing over the shittiness that has been the Simmons/Anderson duo in some stretches of this season.

Same shit with Bertans, if Pop was so open to playing his best 10 men regardless of positions, why hasn't Bertans had a at least the chance to prove he can be a better option than Simmons and/or Anderson on the wings?

[Chinook]

Murray's numbers don't look good because 1) he was beyond awful to start the season (Lapro was getting minutes over him)

So these are his splits from before (left) and after (right) of the Lapra waiving:



G
15
20


GS
2
5


MP
36
36


FG
6.11
5.76


FGA
14.26
13.68


FG%
45
43


3P
1.36
1.08


3PA
2.04
3.24


3P%
60
35


FT
2.72
2.52


FTA
5.43
2.88


FT%
50
87


ORB
0.68
0.72


DRB
4.08
3.60


TRB
4.75
3.96


AST
4.75
5.76


STL
0.68
1.08


BLK
0.00
1.08


TOV
4.75
4.68


PF
4.08
3.24


PTS
16.98
15.12


GmSc
1.10
2.40


+/-
-1.70
1.10



There are some notable areas of improvement, but also others that are the same or worse. The biggest difference has been the total minutes rather than the performance in those minutes.


2) because a good chunk of his minutes are meaningless garbage time.

Not recently. Dude keeps getting benched for making mistakes. The percentage of his minutes that are in garbage time has gone down since the waiving.


I don't know why the fuck you are acting like he has been so bad to the point of not even being worth trying him at the wing over the shittiness that has been the Simmons/Anderson duo in some stretches of this season.

If you read my post history about Murray, you'd know that I've wanted him to get wing minutes this whole time. It's other posters who think a) He should only play PG and b) Pop agrees with their first point and as such won't play him there. I think Pop would totally play him there if he thought it was best for the team. It's not a damned conspiracy.


Same shit with Bertans, if Pop was so open to playing his best 10 men regardless of positions, why hasn't Bertans had a at least the chance to prove he can be a better option than Simmons and/or Anderson on the wings?

Because Bertans can't really guard on the perimeter at all. That's a huge deal, as Simmons is at least not horrible defensively and Kyle has been very strong.

[DAF86]

If you read my post history about Murray, you'd know that I've wanted him to get wing minutes this whole time. It's other posters who think a) He should only play PG and b) Pop agrees with their first point and as such won't play him there. I think Pop would totally play him there if he thought it was best for the team. It's not a damned conspiracy.

Nobody is talking about conspiracies, tbh. Pop doesn't play Murray at the wing for a reason. You think it is because Murray is just not good enough right now, I think it is because Pop prefers to play him at PG.

I don't think it's the whole "he just isn't good enough right now" thing because of a number of reasons:

1) You can't definitely say "he just isn't good enough right now" if you haven't even tried it. Give him a couple of games at the 2 and see what he can do before stating such a thing.

And 2) Whenever one of Patty or Tony are out, Murray does get playing time. If Pop thought "he isn't good enough" he wouldn't be so comfortable playing him extended minutes as the PG. He would get Manu to play PG or, more likely, sign a vet PG.

[DPG21920]

What? For as much as you don't like conjuncture from Chinook you sure use a lot in your reasonings.

At the end of the day, if Murray was a clear cut better player than any of the PG/SG's he would be getting more minutes. Period.

Also, you are failing to realize that Pop see's things not just with Murray, but guys like Bertans in practices and other areas when he's making his assessments. Stuff you would never see nor know about. How do you know in practice Murray isn't consistently messing up rotations, sets or other stuff?

It's not just the game time you see which leads to minutes. There are lots of things going on that all of us are naive about.

[Chinook]

You think it is because Murray is just not good enough right now, I think it is because Pop prefers to play him at PG.

Difference is, Pop has never, ever shown that he will not play two PGs together. He wanted to sign an All-NBA PG to play with his favorite up-and-coming PG in 2003. In 2008-2011, he started two PGs. In 2012, he raved about his two-PG lineup. He played three PGs together in 2013. He's played PGs together multiple times this same season. He simply doesn't have anything against doing it.


1) You can't definitely say "he just isn't good enough right now" if you haven't even tried it. Give him a couple of games at the 2 and see what he can do before stating such a thing.

That's not how it works. The guy has to show you he's worth the minutes first. Pop is likely content with Simmons seeing as he hasn't brought in another wing. God, do I disagree with him on that. But that's his call. But since's that's the case, he's not likely to be in the mood to "just try" Murray there. I've thought he should, especially when Manu is out. But he doesn't.


And 2) Whenever one of Patty or Tony are out, Murray does get playing time. If Pop thought "he isn't good enough" he wouldn't be so comfortable playing him extended minutes as the PG. He would get Manu to play PG or, more likely, sign a vet PG.

Wait, so Pop has to think Murray is good enough to be a starter/sixth man in order to give him the third-string job? Worst players than Murray have started games for him.

[MaNu4Tres]

You guys really have a lot of time on your hands.

So people disagree about this. Whats new?

Spurs are overwhelmed with proven players who have earned their keep and spots in the rotation for YEARS. They all have produced up to their expectations for the most part, they are all healthy and they all have attributed to being 2 games out of having the best record in the NBA. Pop isn't going to play a rookie over Manu, Green, Tony or Mills, no matter how well he plays. If this wasn't the case, Pop would have continued riding his hot hand after Tony came back from injury. But he didn't, no matter what he wasn't going to give Murray minutes over "his" guys who for years have earned their place year after year. It's just not Murrays time right now, even though he's played extremely well in games he gets more than 15 minutes.

And after a year of Simmons spending time in the, " he has to earn it" dog house ( even though he was obviously a better option than Martin to some-- including myself), Pop sat him for the playoffs because of Pops way of earning your due. Simmons has finally earned his due to get minutes after performing incredible well on the defensive end all season ( Pop values his D and him as a player more than most on here). So he's going to get any minutes first after Kawhi, Danny and Manu. He's earned it.

As for practices, Spurs hardly ever run full practices or full scrimmages during the year because of the crazy NBA schedule. Pop values rest more than running his team into the ground. So this notion that, " Pop may dislike what he sees in practice" is highly highly unlikely. They run light walk throughs, go over film and have light shoot around. The last 2-4 guys in the rotation run 2 on 2 and 3 on 3 to keep their games sharp but the others don't participate as extensively. That's the extent of 95% of the "practices" that go in during the season.

[DAF86]

What? For as much as you don't like conjuncture from Chinook you sure use a lot in your reasonings.

At the end of the day, if Murray was a clear cut better player than any of the PG/SG's he would be getting more minutes. Period.

I think nobody believes Murray is a clear cut better player than any of the PGs or wings on the team, but a lot of folks, me included, do believe that he isn't a clear cut worse player either, and he has, by far, the biggest upside of the bunch. That's why we want to see him out there getting his feet wet and getting some much needed on court experience.


Also, you are failing to realize that Pop see's things not just with Murray, but guys like Bertans in practices and other areas when he's making his assessments. Stuff you would never see nor know about. How do you know in practice Murray isn't consistently messing up rotations, sets or other stuff?

It's not just the game time you see which leads to minutes. There are lots of things going on that all of us are naive about.

The good old "coaches see things the fans can't", which is definitely true, but it is also true that sometimes coaches hesitate to play rookies in favour of players with more years in the system when playing the rookie would have helped the team more. There are many of these cases in every sport. Coaches fuck up constantly, even the great ones.

Pop himself said Murray has a ton of potential and just needs playing time. Experience that you can't get from training or d-league games. That's what some of us are asking for, tbh

[midnightpulp]

Free him. Parker earned more playing time tonight, but House has yet to show any urgency. Murray should be the first PG off the bench for the next few games as a tester.

[DAF86]

Free him. Parker earned more playing time tonight, but House has yet to show any urgency. Murray should be the first PG off the bench for the next few games as a tester.

You can question a lot of things about Patty, but not his urgency, imho. That hustle where he got that retarded clear path foul is classic Patty effort.

[midnightpulp]

You can question a lot of things about Patty, but not his urgency, imho. That hustle where he got that retarded clear path foul is classic Patty effort.

Still sucks offensively. While he might be urgent on the court regarding "hustle plays," it doesn't look like that same urgency has translated to more work on his shot in the gym.

[MultiTroll]

Great game by Parker.
Oh wait, right on cue he hero balls with the game on the line and gets his shit pushed in.

[SASdynasty!]

Great game by Parker.
Oh wait, right on cue he hero balls with the game on the line and gets his shit pushed in.
19/6/3 on 50%. Best player on the court outside of Leonard/Harden tonight.

[spursistan]

Bump..

Earned his 10-12 MPG vs GSW, tbh..

[DAF86]

Give him the Keyyyys next season. :hungry:

[spursistan]

Loved Pop treating him like a major piece of the team when he told him to foul so he can checks out before the end of garbage time :lol..

[midnightpulp]

:tu

Wish we had Tony, though :(

I wanted to be able to run a 3 deep PG lineup at Golden State's asses. Sucks, because Tony and Patty were both peaking at the same time, and now Murray looks good.