Of Teams That Won 3 or More Titles: Parker/Ginobili The Weakest 2nd/3rd Option Ever?

[hitmantb]

This is taking nothing away from these two overachievers. Late first rounder and second rounder are not supposed to turn into hall of famers, but with their competitive spirit, international players being undervalued at the time, Pop's nurturing and Duncan's individual sacrifice, they will finish their career as top 100 players to ever play in the NBA.

But I always thought part of the reason why Spurs did not repeat was because Duncan peaked much earlier than Parker and Ginobili, and more importantly, after Duncan's decline from top 3 to top 10 players in the NBA, Parker/Ginobili as 2nd/3rd options are just a tad below other teams 2nd/3rd options. Would you really take them over Kobe in Shaq/Kobe era? How about Pippen/Rodman in Bulls era? The 1980's Lakers and Celtics are just as stacked so no point to even go there. Even teams that only won two rings often had stronger 2nd/3rd options, like Wade/Bosh in Miami big three era, or Warior/Cavalier (whomever rings this year).

Both Parker and Ginobili are extremely intelligent players who more than made up their relative lack of physical goods. Ginobili at his peak was basically 2017 Harden with durability/sustainability issues. his feast or famine playing style helped Spurs won title when they are not supposed to (2005 Pistons) and lost titles when they had it in the bag (2006 Mavs). Parker, as good as he was, could have been replaced by any top point guard of the era, if that point guard had Duncan to set screens and anchor the defense. Because of their relative weakness against their peers, I felt Spurs for the most part only won rings during the decline/disappearance of super teams. 1999 when Jordan retired, 2003 against a Lakers team that won 3 rings in a row, 2005 and 2007 when league had no real super team, and 2014 against a Miami Heat team that played 3 finals in a row.

In an alternative universe, I would have loved to see what Duncan would have done if he had his own Pippen or Kobe. Taking Parker/Ginobili to 4 rings, it really speaks volumes about his greatness.

And by that same token, I always thought the 1999 Spurs was the strongest Spurs team ever, because David was at the tail end of his prime and that version of David was the greatest teammate Duncan ever had in his career.

Parker

3× All-NBA Second Team (2012–2014)
All-NBA Third Team (2009)

Ginobili

2× All-NBA Third Team (2008, 2011)

Kobe During Shaq Three-Peat Era Alone

3× All-NBA First Team (2002-2004)
2× All-NBA Second Team (2000, 2001)

Scottie Pippen

3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)

[apalisoc_9]

Playing for the spurs is a recipe for disaster in terms of individual accomplishment.

In truth both of them should have a few more All-NBA awards...

[CGD]

Who was the third option on the Shaq laker's teams?

[daledondale]

Ginobili at his peak was basically 2017 Hardenhttps://media.giphy.com/media/11SJ52YouBaDFS/giphy.gif
Stop reading right there. You need to check some videos and stop taking numerical stats so serious. Manu was Harden PLUS good defense, more IQ, better passer and clutchness.

[lilbthebasedgod]

https://media.giphy.com/media/11SJ52YouBaDFS/giphy.gif
Stop reading right there. You need to check some videos and stop taking numerical stats so serious. Manu was Harden PLUS good defense, more IQ, better passer and clutchness.

James Harden is actually a really good defender and certainly better than prime manu. It shows up in the stats. People need to stop looking at videos and look at numbers more. Manu is a quarter the player of harden and only blind homers would think that.

[Pocho La Pantera]

This guy is 15 yo. When Duncan didn't have Tony and Manu in the Olympics what happened?

[Mr. Body]

I'd take Parker or Ginobili over Rodman any day of the week.

[GSH]

Teams that won 3 or more titles? I assume you mean teams that were relatively INTACT while winning 3 or more titles. So there are basically 3 teams since the merger who have done that?

You made a whole thread to argue over which version of Godzilla was the toughest.

[From Downtown]

James Harden is actually a really good defender and certainly better than prime manu. It shows up in the stats. People need to stop looking at videos and look at numbers more. Manu is a quarter the player of harden and only blind homers would think that.

Not even TheGreatYacht would come up with that

[Mr. Body]

Yeah, it's a weird thread. I'd take Kobe over either of them, and probably Pippen, but then the Rockets repeated without a second player I'd pick before them and certainly no third player. Only talking about modern era.

[DAF86]

James Harden is actually a really good defender and certainly better than prime manu. It shows up in the stats. People need to stop looking at videos and look at numbers more. Manu is a quarter the player of harden and only blind homers would think that.

Shut the fuck up you dumb faggot. :lol

[Robz4000]

:lol both Manu and Tony were Top 10 (Top 5 in Tony's case) players in the league at their peaks. That's pretty damn good for a second/third option.

[Spurtacular]

James Harden is actually a really good defender

:lmao

Yea, he should be getting all those all NBA defense awards like Kobe did, too. He was another "really good defender."

[cd98]

Parker and Manu are great players, but they were young when Duncan was in his prime, so you could argue that Tim would've won more titles in his prime. But bc Manu and Parker hit their primes later, it lengthened the Spurs great run. My guess is the the Spurs won 4 titles spread out (5 had a heavy dose of Kawhi) bc each hit primes at different times. If they had all hit primes together, they prob win 3-4 titles bunched together instead of spread out over years.

[Snaq O'Meal]

Who was the third option on the Shaq laker's teams?

The refs.

[lilbthebasedgod]

Harden has bad plays where it looks obvious that he is a bad defender because he takes plays off. But he is a good defender in the 95% of plays where he doesn't do that. Its why his defensive stats are pretty good.

[SASdynasty!]

I'll take '03, '05, & '07 Parker & Ginobili over '00-'02 Bryant & Fisher.

[daledondale]

James Harden is actually a really good defender and certainly better than prime manu. It shows up in the stats. People need to stop looking at videos and look at numbers more. Manu is a quarter the player of harden and only blind homers would think that.
http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/4682184/hahaha-beautiful-o.gif
You're going full retard.

[cd021]

:lol both Manu and Tony were Top 10 (Top 5 in Tony's case) players in the league at their peaks. That's pretty damn good for a second/third option.

I'd argue that Parker was top 3 doing the 12-13 season with Lebron, KD, and maybe Westbrook ahead of him

[diego]

06 was so in the bag that we were down 3-1 before Manu fouled dirk (after which Tim himself got fouled on a layup (nocall) then went scoreless iirc in OT)

Only reason tims Spurs didn't repeat was injuries and bad refs.

[CGD]

The refs.

Truth!

[TheDoctor]

James Harden is actually a really good defender and certainly better than prime manu. It shows up in the stats. People need to stop looking at videos and look at numbers more. Manu is a quarter the player of harden and only blind homers would think that.

I've never understood the hatred towards players born in Mexico tbh

[will_spurs]

Manu and Tony are great players in their own right. Sadly the big 3 never peaked together (except maybe 2007 when Parker was entering his peak phase?)

[ElNono]

https://i.imgur.com/AbeOik6.jpg

[SpursIndonesia]

Harden is a very poor Batman, while Manu was a great, great Robin in his peak. Harden is stronger, a bit better in drawing fouls, and shoot three point ball better, the rest are equal mostly, and Manu was & is a better competitor & teammate.

TP has never been a complete player, but in his peak, his specialty is really what made the team go, aka HOTS.

[Mikeanaro]

Lol what a stupid post/thread whatever.

[BillMc]

https://i.imgur.com/AbeOik6.jpg
:lol This +1000

[Pauleta14]

Tony was top 3 in 12-13 and Manu top 3 SG (with Kobe and Wade) in the last 15 years...

Even Pop admited that the way he coached them killed their individual accomplishments, both should have better stats and more ASG or all NBA appearances

[NameLess Scrub]

06 was so in the bag that we were down 3-1 before Manu fouled dirk (after which Tim himself got fouled on a layup (nocall) then went scoreless iirc in OT)

Only reason tims Spurs didn't repeat was injuries and bad refs.

And 6

[Phenomanul]

Peak Manu was way more efficient than Harden... Harden is a ball hog who just now realized he has to get his teammates involved in the offense. His usage rate is much higher than any Manu ever had, but defensively Manu's instincts are light years ahead of anything Harden has accomplished on that end of the ball.

[DAF86]

Harden is a very poor Batman, while Manu was a great, great Robin in his peak. Harden is stronger, a bit better in drawing fouls, and shoot three point ball better, the rest are equal mostly, and Manu was & is a better competitor & teammate.

TP has never been a complete player, but in his peak, his specialty is really what made the team go, aka HOTS.

Only reason you say this is 'cause Harden went to the Rockets to be the top dog, had Manu done the same (or Harden had stayed as the 6th man on OKC), you would be singing a different tune. Manu has proven he can be the 1st option in Europe, in international play and, yep, in the NBA also ('08 and '11). So please, stop underrating the guy.

[Thomas82]

Manu and Tony are great players in their own right. Sadly the big 3 never peaked together (except maybe 2007 when Parker was entering his peak phase?)

IMO, TD was entering his prime the year Tony came into the NBA.

[HarlemHeat37]

They weren't as good as other sidekicks like Kobe, Pippen, Kareem, etc, but to be fair, the other greats didn't have a team like the 2014 squad where they didn't have to carry a load(a rare example where a team actually performed better when the bigger names were on the bench) ..

[apalisoc_9]

Only reason you say this is 'cause Harden went to the Rockets to be the top dog, had Manu done the same (or Harden had stayed as the 6th man on OKC), you would be singing a different tune. Manu has proven he can be the 1st option in Europe, in international play and, yep, in the NBA also ('08 and '11). So please, stop underrating the guy.

True, but I don't think Manu was ever a numbers guy. Even playing for Argentina..He's a lot closer to spurs manu than a perceived what if manu if he left for another team.

[TD 21]

Even though Ginobili is probably the most underrated player of all time to non Spurs fans and Parker's prime, at least, is underrated among Spurs fans, they probably are. Both had stretches of superstar caliber play, but were never superstars.

In theory, this should enhance Duncan's legacy, yet it somehow doesn't because as usual, Pop is given the majority of the credit for this.

[SpursIndonesia]

Only reason you say this is 'cause Harden went to the Rockets to be the top dog, had Manu done the same (or Harden had stayed as the 6th man on OKC), you would be singing a different tune. Manu has proven he can be the 1st option in Europe, in international play and, yep, in the NBA also ('08 and '11). So please, stop underrating the guy.

Do you understand that a great great Robin stature is on the same level of what Pippen did for MJ back then ? I don't think putting Manu on that pedestal is a diss on him.

[DAF86]

Do you understand that a great great Robin stature is on the same level of what Pippen did for MJ back then ? I don't think putting Manu on that pedestal is a diss on him.

Don't try to spin the argument. I'm talking about your Harden=Batman/Ginobili=Robin comment. Do you think Manu couldn't have been a 1st option on a relatively succesful NBA team?

[SpursIndonesia]

Don't try to spin the argument. I'm talking about your Harden=Batman/Ginobili=Robin comment. Do you think Manu couldn't have been a 1st option on a relatively succesful NBA team?

And i have said Manu can't be a 1st option on a successful NBA team when ?? Do you pick an argument for the sake of it ? Of course Manu can be a more than decent 1st option, but he's not a transcendent talent like some other, and that's not a knock on him, it is what it is.

And to clarify shit, yes a great Robin can be Batman too, but not a great one.

[DAF86]

And i have said Manu can't be a 1st option on a successful NBA team when ?? Do you pick an argument for the sake of it ? Of course Manu can be a more than decent 1st option, but he's not a transcendent talent like some other, and that's not a knock on him, it is what it is.

And to clarify shit, yes a great Robin can be Batman too, but not a great one.

So Harden has "trascendent talent" and Manu doesn't? Sorry for all the questions son but I'm trying to figure out why did you say that Harden is a batman and Manu is a robin.

[SpursIndonesia]

So Harden has "trascendent talent" and Manu doesn't? Sorry for all the questions son but I'm trying to figure out why did you say that Harden is a batman and Manu is a robin.

And if Harden has a transcendent talent he won't be a poor Batman, will he ? Jordan, Duncan, Olajuwon, James, O'Neal are transcendent, Kobe, Harden, Nash, Robinson (sorry five-oh) and even as good as Curry is, are not.

[DAF86]

And if Harden has a transcendent talent he won't be a poor Batman, will he ? Jordan, Duncan, Olajuwon, James, O'Neal are transcendent, Kobe, Harden, Nash, Robinson (sorry five-oh) and even as good as Curry is, are not.

Ok, so why did you say Harden is a batman and Manu a robin?

[SpursIndonesia]

Ok, so why did you say Harden is a batman and Manu a robin?

Because Manu had Duncan in front of him, dohh ?? :bang

[skulls138]

And i have said Manu can't be a 1st option on a successful NBA team when ?? Do you pick an argument for the sake of it ? Of course Manu can be a more than decent 1st option, but he's not a transcendent talent like some other, and that's not a knock on him, it is what it is.

And to clarify shit, yes a great Robin can be Batman too, but not a great one.Ginobili wiped the floor with a Duncan led American Olympic team. Who knows what Ginobili wouldve done on another team.

[SpursIndonesia]

Ginobili wiped the floor with a Duncan led American Olympic team. Who knows what Ginobili wouldve done on another team.

That USA NT was one of the weakest ever (all raw athleticism without outside shooting against packed paint/zone defense in international game, superstars got pussified with only TD & Iverson as the babysitters, IIRC), and Manu + Argentina NT was in their peak, playing waay over their head, truly an inspiring tournament for them, it happens.

Yeah, we never knew, but i still think the way Manu play his game, his greatness will be neutered some if he has to carry a load as a Batman to ensure his body won't break down half way the season in.

[ElNono]

That USA NT was one of the weakest ever (all raw athleticism without outside shooting against packed paint/zone defense in international game, superstars got pussified with only TD & Iverson as the babysitters, IIRC), and Manu + Argentina NT was in their peak, playing waay over their head, truly an inspiring tournament for them, it happens.

Yeah, we never knew, but i still think the way Manu play his game, his greatness will be neutered some if he has to carry a load as a Batman to ensure his body won't break down half way the season in.

This is such nonsense. That team had Wade, Melo, Lebron, Odom, TD, Iverson... you could pin it on Larry Brown and his shitty coaching (making Marbury a centerpiece), the international refs and a bunch of other stuff, but that was a pivotal moment for Team USA (Team USA leadership itself said they studied that ARG team to rebuild itself afterwards), and had nothing to do with lack of talent. The teams that competed later on and won also had young talent in KD, Westbrook, etc, never had a problem getting gold. Not to mention that was the 2nd time that ARG team beat Team USA (only team to beat them twice, IIRC) so it's not like it happened to be a fluke game.

Manu in the 2005 playoffs averaged 33.5mpg. That was during what was arguably his peak (age 27, and he come over the the NBA late, relatively speaking). That's what Kawhi is averaging this season (highest of his career) at age 25.

Frankly, much ado was done about how he was going to be finished by age 30 because he looked like a ping-pong ball out there, but he learned to change his game and still be extremely effective.

That said, I'm glad he teamed up with Tim and the Spurs. Even if you could've projected him to be a 'Batman' to the style of Vince Carter or T-Mac, he might be recognized as a good talent, but wouldn't have the rings. And the Spurs would certainly have at least one or two less too.

[Pocho La Pantera]

Ginobili wiped the floor with a Duncan led American Olympic team. Who knows what Ginobili wouldve done on another team. this