Zero penetration

[UZER]

This team has zero guard penetration. If it's not Kawhi, it's no one.

Green :lol

Manu :lol

Parker :lol

Mills :lol

[apalisoc_9]

Time to take a shot a Murray..He had a fantastic drive gravity against CLE.

[Horse]

Could've used the juice

[SAGirl]

Could've used the juice
Juice has been crapping his pants the last few games...

Its time Pop gives a look at Murray...

[TheGreatYacht]

Could've used the juice
Agreed. Much better option than fathead

[sasaint]

Juice has been crapping his pants the last few games...

Its time Pop gives a look at Murray...

I knew you'd come around! :toast But I am not giving up on Simmons just yet. :lol

[SAGirl]

I knew you'd come around! :toast But I am not giving up on Simmons just yet. :lol
To me Simmons is gone in the offseason... or maybe I am hoping he is. :lol He has been bad plain and simple. Spurs need to update the guards spots and I hope they try to do something in the offseason that's not standing pat.

I have always been in Murrays corner. He hasn't been playing well (the TO in the Memphis game put him in the doghouse IMO...

Pop is just going to tell himself when Pau is back they will be fine and continue with same old though.

[sasaint]

To me Simmons is gone in the offseason... or maybe I am hoping he is. :lol He has been bad plain and simple. Spurs need to update the guards spots and I hope they try to do something in the offseason that's not standing pat.

I have always been in Murrays corner. He hasn't been playing well (the TO in the Memphis game put him in the doghouse IMO...

Pop is just going to tell himself when Pau is back they will be fine and continue with same old though.

Yep. You got that right!

[bic50]

Time to take a shot a Murray..He had a fantastic drive gravity against CLE.

[emanueldavidginobili]

Pop needs to throw Murray into the fire, the kid has a knack at getting in the paint, and he's young fresh athletic legs. Spurs are accomplishing nothing with Patty taking all the back up pg minutes

[ElNono]

We're built as a post up/jump shooting team, tbh... this is Pop doing his cute "I'm doing the exact opposite everybody is doing right now". I think the point is legit, personally, but I also don't think that's how the Spurs want most of their offense to run with this team...

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Spurs are dead last in point in the paint.

[SAGirl]

Spurs are dead last in point in the paint.
I had noticed they settled for too many jumpshots at times but I didn't know it was this bad...

[George Gervin's Afro]

Good guys don't have anyone to breakdown a defense. Anyone that pop will play. I agee about Anderson...

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Murray is hopefully the next Parker but Pop won't give him a long leash like he did for young Parker.

[MaNu4Tres]

They desperately need more penetration.

Give me Murrays penetration/ edge on D more than Mills' shooting/ liabilities on D.

Shop Mills.

[LakerHater]

I thought for sure Tony woulda used his Tear drop or those runnin jump lay ups.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

I thought for sure Tony woulda used his Tear drop or those runnin jump lay ups.

WAKE UP, Mr. Van Winkle!

[UNT Eagles 2016]

We're built as a post up/jump shooting team, tbh... this is Pop doing his cute "I'm doing the exact opposite everybody is doing right now". I think the point is legit, personally, but I also don't think that's how the Spurs want most of their offense to run with this team...

It was a good strategy when we had the best defense in the league, but with some of our best defenders from last year off the team it doesn't make sense.

[sasaint]

Murray is hopefully the next Parker but Pop won't give him a long leash like he did for young Parker.

Murray is no worse today than Tony was in 2001. But Tony is Pop's son.

[TheDoctor]

They desperately need more penetration.

Give me Murrays penetration/ edge on D more than Mills' shooting/ liabilities on D.

Shop Mills.

Mills, WhirlpoolHead and Forbes for Jrue Holiday.

Which is having a helluva game so far in 3 quarters:

14pts/6rebs/6ast/5stl

AVGing 16pts/7ast/4reb on .464FG/.394FG3 shooting this season.

[ElNono]

It was a good strategy when we had the best defense in the league, but with some of our best defenders from last year off the team it doesn't make sense.

We went this style when LMA signed up, tbh... up until that time, we were doing the complete opposite. From playing inside-out with TD/shooters, to penetration and kick with Manu/Tony, to "Summertime"... always a lot of P&R mixed in... we were pretty much allergic to ISOs and long 2s...

That said, I thought we were the #1 defense in the league, tbh? Maybe #2 now right behind Utah?

[sasaint]

We went this style when LMA signed up, tbh... up until that time, we were doing the complete opposite. From playing inside-out with TD/shooters, to penetration and kick with Manu/Tony, to "Summertime"... always a lot of P&R mixed in... we were pretty much allergic to ISOs and long 2s...

That said, I thought we were the #1 defense in the league, tbh? Maybe #2 now right behind Utah?

Bingo! That's one reason many ST posters did not like the signing from the get-go.

[ElNono]

Bingo! That's one reason many ST posters did not like the signing from the get-go.

I just don't want that to sound like it's LMA's idea... Pop is the guy that decides how this team plays, tbh

[MaNu4Tres]

I just don't want that to sound like it's LMA's idea... Pop is the guy that decides how this team plays, tbh

Teams are usually built around the best players. On this team, offensively, the two guys who get the most volume are not good creators..it has just naturally evolved that way because they get the most touches.

[sasaint]

I just don't want that to sound like it's LMA's idea... Pop is the guy that decides how this team plays, tbh

It's LMA's game, and PATFO knew it when they signed him.

[ElNono]

Teams are usually built around the best players. On this team, offensively, the two guys who get the most volume are not good creators..it has just naturally evolved that way because they get the most touches.


It's LMA's game, and PATFO knew it when they signed him.

They're both valid points, but they obviate that LMA is really playing a 2nd banana role here, which is different than the role he had in the Blazers (while Lillard was up and coming, LMA was always the #1 guy).

I agree that this team has been tooled to be top heavy, due to personnel... but on that note, it's difficult to see how you still get those touches to those guys running penetration/kick... with LMA, you still get the long 2... Kawhi parked in the 3 point line waiting for a kick sounds like a waste...

In theory, penetration is a great way to get defenses scrambling (one of the best ways to shake up our defense, for example), but with this roster, what's the endgame? Get Danny, Patty, Kawhi 3 point looks? LMA the pick and pop? Maybe Dedmon some lobs... I mean, you know LMA and Kawhi are taking half the shots anyways, and so do the other teams..

[TD 21]

Murray is no worse today than Tony was in 2001. But Tony is Pop's son.

Parker is never being dropped from the rotation and the days of positional rigidity are gone. Murray playing doesn't have to come at the expense of Parker or Mills, when it can come at the expense of Simmons.

Of course Pop is going to be loyal to the big three; how could he not be? They've made him millions or dollars, a Hall-of-Fame career and given him the platform to play his shtick without getting criticized for it.


We went this style when LMA signed up, tbh... up until that time, we were doing the complete opposite. From playing inside-out with TD/shooters, to penetration and kick with Manu/Tony, to "Summertime"... always a lot of P&R mixed in... we were pretty much allergic to ISOs and long 2s...

That said, I thought we were the #1 defense in the league, tbh? Maybe #2 now right behind Utah?

Wrong. The Aldridge acquisition exacerbated it, but "we" went to it around the start of '15, when it became abundantly clear that Parker wasn't just in decline, but had fallen off a cliff and Leonard, who's like a rich man's DeRozan offensively, started to emerge as the offensive centerpiece.

The defense is between 1-3 or 4 depending on the day, but as it's been since the beginning of '14-'15, the antiquated, limited offense is the issue. The chemistry is also not the same, as Green repeatedly alludes to. If he were a free agent in '16 or '17 and the difference in money was the same, there's no doubt in my mind he wouldn't have re-signed.

[sananspursfan21]

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/webkit-fake-url://edfd198a-98cb-4cd5-814a-c05858e9e999/imagegif

[ElNono]

Wrong. The Aldridge acquisition exacerbated it, but "we" went to it around the start of '15, when it became abundantly clear that Parker wasn't just in decline, but had fallen off a cliff and Leonard, who's like a rich man's DeRozan offensively, started to emerge as the offensive centerpiece.

The defense is between 1-3 or 4 depending on the day, but as it's been since the beginning of '14-'15, the antiquated, limited offense is the issue. The chemistry is also not the same, as Green repeatedly alludes to. If he were a free agent in '16 or '17 and the difference in money was the same, there's no doubt in my mind he wouldn't have re-signed.

We won the 14-15 championship playing 'summertime'... That was never to be seen again (it was near impossible to replicate/sustain, if we're being realistic). Patty and Danny where hitting everything from outside too. The full ISO-jumper transformation came at the start of the 2015 season, IMO.

I don't disagree about the offense, tbh, but that's when we changed it: when our roster talent shifted dramatically towards LMA and Kawhi... everybody else, more or less, turned into a role player... that's why the Spurs can't really afford LMA to be another role player as currently constructed.

[skulls138]

They're both valid points, but they obviate that LMA is really playing a 2nd banana role here, which is different than the role he had in the Blazers (while Lillard was up and coming, LMA was always the #1 guy).

I agree that this team has been tooled to be top heavy, due to personnel... but on that note, it's difficult to see how you still get those touches to those guys running penetration/kick... with LMA, you still get the long 2... Kawhi parked in the 3 point line waiting for a kick sounds like a waste...

In theory, penetration is a great way to get defenses scrambling (one of the best ways to shake up our defense, for example), but with this roster, what's the endgame? Get Danny, Patty, Kawhi 3 point looks? LMA the pick and pop? Maybe Dedmon some lobs... I mean, you know LMA and Kawhi are taking half the shots anyways, and so do the other teams..

Yes and its still a work in progress. LA is second banana and its taking time for him to adjust both physically and mentally. When he first joined us it was KL doing all the hard work, steals, rebs, scoring etc and LA was mister jump shot, not breaking a sweat. Now he is doing the other stuff like he should. Yes he needs to score, and hopefully thats coming, but not at the expense of his rebs and D.

[TD 21]

We won the 14-15 championship playing 'summertime'... That was never to be seen again (it was near impossible to replicate/sustain, if we're being realistic). Patty and Danny where hitting everything from outside too. The full ISO-jumper transformation came at the start of the 2015 season, IMO.

I don't disagree about the offense, tbh, but that's when we changed it: when our roster talent shifted dramatically towards LMA and Kawhi... everybody else, more or less, turned into a role player... that's why the Spurs can't really afford LMA to be another role player as currently constructed.

No, "we" lost in the 1st round in '15 playing "Duncan turning back the clock" . . . unfortunately, that was never to be seen again.

This is revisionist history because the roster was the same in '13-'14 and '14-'15 and underwent significant change by '15-'16, but really it started in between and Leonard is a bigger reason for it than Aldridge, considering he plays slight more, has the ball in his hands more and has a higher usage rate.

Pop has become a parody of himself since the beginning of '14-'15, but any offensive "system" is predicated more on the style of play from the best player(s) than anything else. The not only can't replicate what they had, they can't even find a happy medium because they don't have the personnel for it.

[UZER]

Like I said, 2017 Pop would have 02 Parker and 03 Stephen Jackson sitting at the end of the bench.

Not saying Murray is the saviour this season, but not playing someone that clearly has the ability to do the one thing thing team is severely lacking in, just to prove they have to "earn it," is ridiculous. There are no gimme seasons. Another year wasted is another year wasted.

Murray should be starting next session, Tony off the bench. Tony would be a great backup playing with second units and be fresh due to less minutes.

If he starts next year too... It's another year wasted.

[sasaint]

Like I said, 2017 Pop would have 02 Parker and 03 Stephen Jackson sitting at the end of the bench.

Not saying Murray is the saviour this season, but not playing someone that clearly has the ability to do the one thing thing team is severely lacking in, just to prove they have to "earn it," is ridiculous. There are no gimme seasons. Another year wasted is another year wasted.

Murray should be starting next session, Tony off the bench. Tony would be a great backup playing with second units and be fresh due to less minutes.

If he starts next year too... It's another year wasted.

And possibly a signal to Kawhi to bolt.

[ElNono]

No, "we" lost in the 1st round in '15 playing "Duncan turning back the clock" . . . unfortunately, that was never to be seen again.

This is revisionist history because the roster was the same in '13-'14 and '14-'15 and underwent significant change by '15-'16, but really it started in between and Leonard is a bigger reason for it than Aldridge, considering he plays slight more, has the ball in his hands more and has a higher usage rate.

But Kawhi changed his shooting selection. Go take a look at the shooting #s for those years:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html#all_shooting
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html#all_shooting

In '14-'15, Kawhi was taking 21% or more of his shots from 0-3 feet, the rest (around 18%) outside, and 23% from 3.
In '15-'16, Kawhi was taking 20% or more of his shots from 0-3 feet, 20% from 10-16, and 26% from 3.

I'm not complaining, Kawhi shot over 50% in '15-'16, so it clearly worked in his favor.

Now, while you're there, take a look at LMA's shot selection from 16-3p line in '15-'16, and also David West. Then try to find anybody in '14-'15 taking that amount of shots from there. You won't find it. The only guy that comes close is Tony at 28%, but he was at 28% both years. So we didn't add one, but two guys that primarily shot jumpers from 16 out. That's not revisionism, the numbers bear it out.


Pop has become a parody of himself since the beginning of '14-'15, but any offensive "system" is predicated more on the style of play from the best player(s) than anything else. The not only can't replicate what they had, they can't even find a happy medium because they don't have the personnel for it.

I agree about this, tbh, I mentioned it last playoffs... It took an event of the magnitude of that Ray Allen 3 to light up the coaching fire on Pop again, the odds we're going to have a similar event soon is remote. I don't think he doesn't want to win, but the motivation just isn't the same, isn't entirely there. It sucks, but it's understandable up to an extent.

[ElNono]

Like I said, 2017 Pop would have 02 Parker and 03 Stephen Jackson sitting at the end of the bench.

Not saying Murray is the saviour this season, but not playing someone that clearly has the ability to do the one thing thing team is severely lacking in, just to prove they have to "earn it," is ridiculous. There are no gimme seasons. Another year wasted is another year wasted.

Murray should be starting next session, Tony off the bench. Tony would be a great backup playing with second units and be fresh due to less minutes.

If he starts next year too... It's another year wasted.

Pop said many times he asked Manu to come off the bench, and if he would've said No, he would've started. So, I'm not so sure about this storyline. I think it has to do with the players too, tbh...

[gospursgojas]

Thought this was a thread about my GF's complaints about me

[lefty]

Porker got penetrated by Rose a lot tbh

[NASpurs]

Thought this was a thread about my GF's complaints about me

Bend over, I'll show your girlfriend zero penetration.

-Spursinsix

[tbdog]

I don't think it is a coincidence that LMA struggles are connected to this very issue.

[pgardn]

Murray is hopefully the next Parker but Pop won't give him a long leash like he did for young Parker.

Long leash...

You have got to be kidding.

[Horse]

Juice has been crapping his pants the last few games...

Its time Pop gives a look at Murray...

I have no issue playing Murray but when Simmons plays lately we win cause like you said penetration. Not that we didn't get plenty of looks and 2nd chances.

[Old School 44]

Like I said, 2017 Pop would have 02 Parker and 03 Stephen Jackson sitting at the end of the bench.

Not saying Murray is the saviour this season, but not playing someone that clearly has the ability to do the one thing thing team is severely lacking in, just to prove they have to "earn it," is ridiculous. There are no gimme seasons. Another year wasted is another year wasted.

Murray should be starting next session, Tony off the bench. Tony would be a great backup playing with second units and be fresh due to less minutes.

If he starts next year too... It's another year wasted.
Agree...I believe Pop really feeds the "system" narrative, which looks good on him and the organization. He may do all the humble "get over myself" talk for the media, but in reality, it's a lot about Pop. He wants to take credit for developing Kawhi, and now Murray. Pop has been "wasting" players in development for the past few years, and in the process, indirectly wasting some very good Duncan years too.

[SAGirl]

I have no issue playing Murray but when Simmons plays lately we win cause like you said penetration. Not that we didn't get plenty of looks and 2nd chances.
I don't think you have watched him lately... he has been playing very bad and TO a lot when forcing his shots....
I mean I hope he rises above that and plays better (like all other Spurs) but he just has been nowhere to be found lately, except to be shitting things up.

[DJR210]

Zero penetration like Ghazi

[SpursforSix]

I thought this was another Ghazi thread about his lovelife.

[SpursforSix]

Zero penetration like Ghazi

ah...you fucker!!!! LOL.

[HarlemHeat37]

Eh, this was an obvious flaw heading into the season with no potential fix, tbh(Pop isn't playing Murray over proven vets and HOFers)..

The front office has chosen to build the offense around 3 front court players, though..can't be surprised when you're lacking in explosive guards when you thought it would be a good idea to zig when the league zagged(the direction of the league, particularly matching up vs. GS)..

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Long leash...

You have got to be kidding.

Parker fucked up so many times in 2001-02 and 2002-03 and yet Pop still trusted him as the QB of the future.

[spurs10]

TWSS!

[clambake]

zero penetration

thats what she said.

[UZER]

zero penetration

thats what she said.

Eva? Or Mrs Barry?

[TD 21]

But Kawhi changed his shooting selection. Go take a look at the shooting #s for those years:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015.html#all_shooting
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html#all_shooting

In '14-'15, Kawhi was taking 21% or more of his shots from 0-3 feet, the rest (around 18%) outside, and 23% from 3.
In '15-'16, Kawhi was taking 20% or more of his shots from 0-3 feet, 20% from 10-16, and 26% from 3.

I'm not complaining, Kawhi shot over 50% in '15-'16, so it clearly worked in his favor.

Now, while you're there, take a look at LMA's shot selection from 16-3p line in '15-'16, and also David West. Then try to find anybody in '14-'15 taking that amount of shots from there. You won't find it. The only guy that comes close is Tony at 28%, but he was at 28% both years. So we didn't add one, but two guys that primarily shot jumpers from 16 out. That's not revisionism, the numbers bear it out.



I agree about this, tbh, I mentioned it last playoffs... It took an event of the magnitude of that Ray Allen 3 to light up the coaching fire on Pop again, the odds we're going to have a similar event soon is remote. I don't think he doesn't want to win, but the motivation just isn't the same, isn't entirely there. It sucks, but it's understandable up to an extent.

You're talking about shot location; I was speaking more so to them becoming more of an ISO team. Like I said, Aldridge clearly exacerbated it, but they were moving in the direction the season before his arrival, but because Leonard is far more popular and that style has come to be known as the antithesis of Spurs basketball, the former gets the blame for it.

[Strategic]

If he starts next year too... It's another year wasted. He also needs to renegotiate, whether he sticks around longer or not.

[ElNono]

You're talking about shot location; I was speaking more so to them becoming more of an ISO team. Like I said, Aldridge clearly exacerbated it, but they were moving in the direction the season before his arrival, but because Leonard is far more popular and that style has come to be known as the antithesis of Spurs basketball, the former gets the blame for it.

In my defense I called it ISO-jumper... we always had some ISO when we transitioned to Manu and Tony carrying a good chunk of the load, and with Kawhi it was more postups, like Tim in his heyday.

Now it's full blown ISO and jumpers. At any rate, we can discuss when this happened ad nauseum, but the fact is that's how Pop put this team together and wants this team to play... it's clear that if he wants a penetrator, that's gotta be Kawhi.

[ElNono]

He also needs to renegotiate, whether he sticks around longer or not.

You can't 'renegotiate' his contract, per the CBA... it's guaranteed money in the books

[dabom]

In my defense I called it ISO-jumper... we always had some ISO when we transitioned to Manu and Tony carrying a good chunk of the load, and with Kawhi it was more postups, like Tim in his heyday.

Now it's full blown ISO and jumpers. At any rate, we can discuss when this happened ad nauseum, but the fact is that's how Pop put this team together and wants this team to play... it's clear that if he wants a penetrator, that's gotta be Kawhi.

We went to Kawhi ISO's cause every one else can't make wide open fucking shots on a consistent basis. :lol

It's not like we never tried to play like 2014. :lol

[ElNono]

We went to Kawhi ISO's cause every one else can't make wide open fucking shots on a consistent basis. :lol

It's not like we never tried to play like 2014. :lol

:lol this team is not built like in 2014... that's what some people refuse to acknowledge. You can bring a 'penetrator' and he'll be watching Kawhi go ISO and LMA take his 16ft jumpers.... that's how this team distributes it's scoring.

[dabom]

:lol this team is not built like in 2014... that's what some people refuse to acknowledge. You can bring a 'penetrator' and he'll be watching Kawhi go ISO and LMA take his 16ft jumpers.... that's how this team distributes it's scoring.

Tony and Manu have shit the bed these past 2 years. They play big minutes. That's where the talent went. :lmao

[TD 21]

In my defense I called it ISO-jumper... we always had some ISO when we transitioned to Manu and Tony carrying a good chunk of the load, and with Kawhi it was more postups, like Tim in his heyday.

Now it's full blown ISO and jumpers. At any rate, we can discuss when this happened ad nauseum, but the fact is that's how Pop put this team together and wants this team to play... it's clear that if he wants a penetrator, that's gotta be Kawhi.

I don't think it was so much intentional as it being a case of, you take who you can get, when you can get them. If they had their druthers, they probably would have preferred M. Gasol to Aldridge in '15, but the former wasn't going anywhere and like pretty much any team, no matter what you think of him, they were in no position to turn down an opportunity to get a player of Aldridge's caliber.

People can complain all they want about point guard, but Parker wasn't and isn't on the verge of retirement and they're more than likely not going to turn their back on him, at least for anything less than an elite point guard. Conley's a second tier one and with the Grizzlies willing to max him out, he wasn't going anywhere either.

I don't think they want to play this way, so much as it was just inevitable with the way their two best players play. It's clear that Pop, Parker, Ginobili and Green, aren't exactly thrilled and it's no wonder considering the near 180 from '12-'14 to now.

[ElNono]

Tony and Manu have shit the bed these past 2 years. They play big minutes. That's where the talent went. :lmao

Manu might retire, but Tony ain't going anywhere, tbh

[ElNono]

I don't think it was so much intentional as it being a case of, you take who you can get, when you can get them. If they had their druthers, they probably would have preferred M. Gasol to Aldridge in '15, but the former wasn't going anywhere and like pretty much any team, no matter what you think of him, they were in no position to turn down an opportunity to get a player of Aldridge's caliber.

People can complain all they want about point guard, but Parker wasn't and isn't on the verge of retirement and they're more than likely not going to turn their back on him, at least for anything less than an elite point guard. Conley's a second tier one and with the Grizzlies willing to max him out, he wasn't going anywhere either.

I don't think they want to play this way, so much as it was just inevitable with the way their two best players play. It's clear that Pop, Parker, Ginobili and Green, aren't exactly thrilled and it's no wonder considering the near 180 from '12-'14 to now.

And I agree. We made this bed, now we gotta lie on it. But it's not terrible either. When they projected this a couple years ago, you could see the Dubs were building something nice, and the Lebron is always there, but it's not like those teams were a sure thing either or we turned into the Lakers... So it's easy to talk in hindsight in a way, but I didn't think the plan was terrible, and you gotta give credit in the sense that trusting on Kawhi to develop into a star, more or less, panned out.

It might not be enough, given how everything else played out, but it also wasn't a terrible decision...

[DeRozan m8]

Start Murray.

Its time.

Its past time really.

Hurry the fuck up