Bill Simmons article on the MVP race

[Dex]

https://theringer.com/bill-simmons-2017-nba-mvp-james-harden-russell-westbrook-kawhi-leonard-4f617e8d5df5

Posted this in one of the other Kawhi MVP threads, but no one is paying attention to me and its a free country so I am making a whole new thread so deal with it!

Bill makes some compelling arguments.. He may be a shitty TV analyst, but he's still one of the best beat writers around...RIP Grantland.

Spoiler alert: he doesn't pick Kawhi. But there are some good tidbits about him in there:


LeBron’s Cavs limped to a 23–23 record in their last 46 games; that dude hasn’t played for a 30-loss team in nine years. Kawhi would be remembered as our least impactful offensive MVP since Wes Unseld. Westbrook, by every conceivable metric, has been the biggest ball hog in NBA history; he’d also become the first MVP with fewer than 50 wins since 1982, when half the league was downing cocaine like it was vitamin B. Harden offers almost-as-big numbers as Westbrook and an undeniable ability to make teammates better … and yet, Houston won only eight more games than OKC.


San Antonio fares the best because of its Belichickian infrastructure; it’s hard to imagine them dipping below 47 wins even if Aldridge, Gasol, Ginobili, Green, Parker and Pop’s beard were all better three years ago. On my podcast once, Seth Meyers described everything Lorne Michaels built as “The Machine” — stars come and go, writers come and go, trends come and go, but the SNL machine keeps cranking out shows and remaining relevant. Trust the machine, Seth said. He might as well have been discussing the Spurs.

And that’s the best anti-Kawhi case other than his offensive impact (not nearly as profound as we usually expect from an MVP) and his workload (74 games, 33.4 MPG and just 2,474 total minutes). Only three MVPs played less than 2,650 minutes and weren’t sidetracked by a lockout or strike: Curry in 2015 (2,613), Steve Nash in 2005 (2,573), and Bill Walton in the 1978 season (when he broke his foot, played just 1,929 minutes and still won). The Machine doesn’t care; the Machine cares only about the playoffs. The Machine isn’t built to spit out MVP candidates.


Question 2: In a giant pickup game with every NBA player available and two knowledgeable fans forced to pick five-man teams, with their lives depending on the game’s outcome, who would be the first player picked based on how everyone played that season? (Translation: Who’s the alpha dog that season?)

Anyone who doesn’t say “LeBron” is lying. You just are. For one game only, his ceiling is three floors higher than anyone else. We’re all taking LeBron. Kawhi’s defensive prowess makes him my second pick, especially if we’re applying the Bob Ryan Doomsday Scenario — if aliens landed and challenged us to a game of hoops, and we had to pick five guys to save the world. (I’d want Kawhi just in case they had a 6-foot-9 alien with five arms that we needed to lock down.)



Question 4: Ten years from now, who will be the first player from that season who pops into my head? (Every season belongs to someone to varying degrees.)

The case for Kawhi: wins, efficiency, two-way play at the highest of levels. He’s the NBA’s third-best defensive player AND the league’s sixth-best offensive player AND everyone’s pick if we needed one defender to stop any great scorer in the last minute of any playoff game.

The case against Kawhi: The 2016–17 season belonged to Westbrook’s triple-double chase and the Durant-Russ feud, then the Warriors, then Harden and Moreyball, then the overflowing batch of explosive guards (Curry, Thomas, Wall, Lillard, Kyrie, etc.), then the unicorns (Giannis, Jokic, Porzingis, Embiid, maybe Towns), then LeBron’s bizarre Cavs season, then Tankapalooza 2017 … and maybe THEN you’d remember Kawhi and the Spurs? He would own the NBA season less than any MVP I can ever remember.


I want my MVP to stand out in some uniquely impactful way. It’s not baseball. It’s not the Advanced Metrics Award. There’s a performance art/water cooler/alpha dog wrinkle that Kawhi just never offered, mainly because the Pop Machine would never want him to have it. He’s my third-place MVP pick.

[wildbill2u]

Simmons always garnishes his opinions with some great analogies and writing in general. Kwahi can forget this season for MVP. BUT if we can get to the WCF finals and the Championship finals he can make a run at those series MVP>

[alpha_HaZE]

Well, the eight more games Houston won account for three places in the western conf, 3rd to 6th. That's a significant amount of games. I think Harden's Houston is a better team, I don't think there is a debate here. Harden and D'Antoni are Nash's Suns on steroids.

Belichickian infrastructure; is this a joke? Kawhi has carried the Spurs more than any other player in Spurs history! And he shoots with a Jordan-like efficiency on offense. Kawhi has both higher offensive rating; 121, harden 118, and russ 112, and lower defensive rating; 102, 104 russ, 107 harden!

They do get more rebounds and assists, but their team have bigs that are mobile, athletic and great finishers near the basket. I am sure Kawhi would fare much better in those categories if he had say Adams boxing out for him or the cast that Harden has around him. Spurs, are slow and unathletic with Tony, Manu, Kyle, and Pau receiving a significant amount of minutes.

Really, what Kawhi is doing this year is absolutely amazing, don't forget Pop truly uses the regular season as a training camp where he experiments and tries lots of different line ups and rests players. As a player it is allot harder to find a rhythm if you don't have the same players consistently around you.

I find it funny how people use Belichickian infrastructure as an excuse to knock off points from Kawhi, when in reality it's his strongest suit. I mean it is expected to turn the ball over more when your coach puts new players around you every game. And then you don't play as much as the others guys. Yet you won more; 6 and 14 more games. Really, it baffles me.

Earlier this year Pop said that Kawhi needs to improve on decision making and Simmons is reading too much into it. When Kawhi does that he will be scary good, but he is already better than the likes of Russ and Harden. Harden shouldn't get the MVP, not after the way Kawhi embarrassed him.

I ask you this;

Who would you rather have on your team when facing Lebron? Harden, Russ, or Kawhi? Kawhi is the obvious answer!
How about when facing KD?

Kawhi is the most valuable player. Without him, you don't have a chance beating Lebron or the Warriors for a Ring.

[Maddog]

Simmons always garnishes his opinions with some great analogies and writing in general. Kwahi can forget this season for MVP. BUT if we can get to the WCF finals and the Championship finals he can make a run at those series MVP>

I know some here dislike Simmons- but that series of tweets sums up why KL will not win MVP and why we shouldn't care.



— if aliens landed and challenged us to a game of hoops, and we had to pick five guys to save the world. (I’d want Kawhi just in case they had a 6-foot-9 alien with five arms that we needed to lock down.)


The Machine doesn’t care; the Machine cares only about the playoffs. The Machine isn’t built to spit out MVP candidates.

[DMC]

This is why Kawhi will be somewhere else in a few years as well. Today it's about your bank account and that's not just your payroll from the franchise now. Kawhi could be making serious bank if the franchise he played for treated him like a marquee player instead of a cog. He could have multiple endorsement contracts because his quiet demeanor is marketable to a large NBA population who are tired of the showboat stars. and are attracted to the work ethic, shut up and work... but I get it, I'm a Spurs fan, and I want him to stick around. His demeanor suggests he's not interested in all the hoopla but there are only so many Tim Duncans around, big impact stars who will forego all the big money to also forego all the bullshit that goes along with it. If Kawhi wants wealth, if he realizes he could now be in a situation where he's on the WCF bubble every year, he could opt to make some lesser team better instead of sharing the space with the Tony Parkers of the world.

[daslicer]

This is why Kawhi will be somewhere else in a few years as well. Today it's about your bank account and that's not just your payroll from the franchise now. Kawhi could be making serious bank if the franchise he played for treated him like a marquee player instead of a cog. He could have multiple endorsement contracts because his quiet demeanor is marketable to a large NBA population who are tired of the showboat stars. and are attracted to the work ethic, shut up and work... but I get it, I'm a Spurs fan, and I want him to stick around. His demeanor suggests he's not interested in all the hoopla but there are only so many Tim Duncans around, big impact stars who will forego all the big money to also forego all the bullshit that goes along with it. If Kawhi wants wealth, if he realizes he could now be in a situation where he's on the WCF bubble every year, he could opt to make some lesser team better instead of sharing the space with the Tony Parkers of the world.

Kawhi is never going to get any respect due to his personality and it has nothing to do with the Spurs system or Tony Parker. The media is more obsessed with larger than life personalities. That's not going to change regardless of where Kawhi plays. Can you name me any players with quiet personalities like Kawhi that have gotten tons of endorsements? I can't think of any. I'm a firm believer had this new age media existed during Duncan's era that he would not have gotten the MVP in '02 or '03 and the MVP would have been given to Kidd and Garnett instead due to them having more charisma and personality.

Kawhi also hates attention and he's even more private than Duncan. If you want respect from today's media you have to be an attention whore. I can't see Kawhi ever being an attention whore like Lebron,Durant,Curry,Westbrook,Harden. He just doesn't have it in his personality.

[Dex]

This is why Kawhi will be somewhere else in a few years as well. Today it's about your bank account and that's not just your payroll from the franchise now. Kawhi could be making serious bank if the franchise he played for treated him like a marquee player instead of a cog. He could have multiple endorsement contracts because his quiet demeanor is marketable to a large NBA population who are tired of the showboat stars. and are attracted to the work ethic, shut up and work... but I get it, I'm a Spurs fan, and I want him to stick around. His demeanor suggests he's not interested in all the hoopla but there are only so many Tim Duncans around, big impact stars who will forego all the big money to also forego all the bullshit that goes along with it. If Kawhi wants wealth, if he realizes he could now be in a situation where he's on the WCF bubble every year, he could opt to make some lesser team better instead of sharing the space with the Tony Parkers of the world.

If Kawhi wanted wealth and fame, he could surely go get it.

I just don't think he wants it. I think he actually is built like Duncan in that regard.

Kawhi just seems to care about winning and becoming one of the greats of the game, and he's done that his NBA entire career.

[DMC]

Kawhi is never going to get any respect due to his personality and it has nothing to do with the Spurs system or Tony Parker. The media is more obsessed with larger than life personalities. That's not going to change regardless of where Kawhi plays. Can you name me any players with quiet personalities like Kawhi that have gotten tons of endorsements? I can't think of any. I'm a firm believer had this new age media existed during Duncan's era that he would not have gotten the MVP in '02 or '03 and the MVP would have been given to Kidd and Garnett instead due to them having more charisma and personality.

Kawhi also hates attention and he's even more private than Duncan. If you want respect from today's media you have to be an attention whore. I can't see Kawhi ever being an attention whore like Lebron,Durant,Curry,Westbrook,Harden. He just doesn't have it in his personality.

Tim turned down a lot of opportunities, so did Dirk. Name a player at Kawhi's level with his demeanor. Just one.

[BillMc]

https://theringer.com/bill-simmons-2017-nba-mvp-james-harden-russell-westbrook-kawhi-leonard-4f617e8d5df5

Posted this in one of the other Kawhi MVP threads, but no one is paying attention to me and its a free country so I am making a whole new thread so deal with it!

Bill makes some compelling arguments.. He may be a shitty TV analyst, but he's still one of the best beat writers around...RIP Grantland.

Spoiler alert: he doesn't pick Kawhi. But there are some good tidbits about him in there:

Cool image in your sig. :toast

[DMC]

If Kawhi wanted wealth and fame, he could surely go get it.

I just don't think he wants it. I think he actually is built like Duncan in that regard.

Kawhi just seems to care about winning and becoming one of the greats of the game, and he's done that his NBA entire career.
So if Kawhi doesn't want wealth or fame, what does he want?

Does he want championships? If so, he's going to need to find another roost. If not, he's just playing because he loves Pop so much?

We'll see. It's not so much Kawhi and his ambitions/goals but the fact that SA is notorious for not getting the right folks to compliment their All Star talent. I mean, they get guys other teams don't want and they plug them into the system and they often do a good job, but when the other teams are stacking with world class talent, the Patty Mills and Danny Greens of the world aren't going to stand up to them. Kawhi could be part of an elite, stacked team with a legit shot to be perennial contenders.

What is working in our favor here is that KL has a title and a Finals MVP along with 2 DPOY awards. He's not lacking accolades so he has no reason to ring chase, but there's money out there, a lot of it.

[daslicer]

Tim turned down a lot of opportunities, so did Dirk. Name a player at Kawhi's level with his demeanor. Just one.

Again name me a player with Kawhi's personality that has done a lot of commercials and endorsements?

[daslicer]

So if Kawhi doesn't want wealth or fame, what does he want?

Does he want championships? If so, he's going to need to find another roost. If not, he's just playing because he loves Pop so much?

We'll see. It's not so much Kawhi and his ambitions/goals but the fact that SA is notorious for not getting the right folks to compliment their All Star talent. I mean, they get guys other teams don't want and they plug them into the system and they often do a good job, but when the other teams are stacking with world class talent, the Patty Mills and Danny Greens of the world aren't going to stand up to them. Kawhi could be part of an elite, stacked team with a legit shot to be perennial contenders.

What is working in our favor here is that KL has a title and a Finals MVP along with 2 DPOY awards. He's not lacking accolades so he has no reason to ring chase, but there's money out there, a lot of it.

Your argument is flawed if Kawhi was obsessed with money he would be seeking commercials and endorsements. I do believe if Kawhi leaves it will be due to him not feeling he can win in SA and not money or fame.

[Spurtacular]

Simmons always garnishes his opinions with some great analogies and writing in general. Kwahi can forget this season for MVP. BUT if we can get to the WCF finals and the Championship finals he can make a run at those series MVP>

I like to use analogies as garnishment.

[Spurtacular]

instead of sharing the space with the Tony Parkers of the world.

But what about his savvy veteran leadership and taking him under his wing? He's a Kobe-like leader.

[DMC]

Again name me a player with Kawhi's personality that has done a lot of commercials and endorsements?

Who has Kawhi's personality?

How much is "a lot"?

[spurs10]

If Kawhi wanted wealth and fame, he could surely go get it.

I just don't think he wants it. I think he actually is built like Duncan in that regard.

Kawhi just seems to care about winning and becoming one of the greats of the game, and he's done that his NBA entire career. I see what you're saying, but Kawhi has about 100 million in the bank, has been on the front of international magazines, and won the FMVP. I think he's got "wealth and fame,"as far as he needs it, covered.

[skulls138]

Well, the eight more games Houston won account for three places in the western conf, 3rd to 6th. That's a significant amount of games. I think Harden's Houston is a better team, I don't think there is a debate here. Harden and D'Antoni are Nash's Suns on steroids.

Belichickian infrastructure; is this a joke? Kawhi has carried the Spurs more than any other player in Spurs history! And he shoots with a Jordan-like efficiency on offense. Kawhi has both higher offensive rating; 121, harden 118, and russ 112, and lower defensive rating; 102, 104 russ, 107 harden!

They do get more rebounds and assists, but their team have bigs that are mobile, athletic and great finishers near the basket. I am sure Kawhi would fare much better in those categories if he had say Adams boxing out for him or the cast that Harden has around him. Spurs, are slow and unathletic with Tony, Manu, Kyle, and Pau receiving a significant amount of minutes.

Really, what Kawhi is doing this year is absolutely amazing, don't forget Pop truly uses the regular season as a training camp where he experiments and tries lots of different line ups and rests players. As a player it is allot harder to find a rhythm if you don't have the same players consistently around you.

I find it funny how people use Belichickian infrastructure as an excuse to knock off points from Kawhi, when in reality it's his strongest suit. I mean it is expected to turn the ball over more when your coach puts new players around you every game. And then you don't play as much as the others guys. Yet you won more; 6 and 14 more games. Really, it baffles me.

Earlier this year Pop said that Kawhi needs to improve on decision making and Simmons is reading too much into it. When Kawhi does that he will be scary good, but he is already better than the likes of Russ and Harden. Harden shouldn't get the MVP, not after the way Kawhi embarrassed him.

I ask you this;

Who would you rather have on your team when facing Lebron? Harden, Russ, or Kawhi? Kawhi is the obvious answer!
How about when facing KD?

Kawhi is the most valuable player. Without him, you don't have a chance beating Lebron or the Warriors for a Ring.It takes both a great player and a great coach to be successful at the highest level so Kawhi shouldnt be punished for having a great coach in being considered for MVP. If it were because of some Belichickian system then the whole squad would be MVP candidates. No I think we just happened to strike gold....again....with KL.

[GSH]

He's right. But it's a pretty sad commentary on the league and the award. Kawhi plays on a team that is designed to have some balance, plus defensive stats don't pop out at you - therefore he's not in the running for the MVP. Pretty ridiculous criteria for deciding who is supposedly the leagues most valuable player.

I was watching the hesitation moves, etc. that Harden and Westbrook were showing tonight, and most of them would be out the window if the league made the decision to actually blow whistles for carrying the ball. You know they never will, because highlight reel plays drive ratings. And THAT is the reason Kawhi won't win the MVP. It has less to do with who is most valuable on the court, and mostly to do with who is most valuable to the television contract.

[SnakeBoy]

If Kawhi wants wealth

I don't think he does. He seems perfectly happy scraping by on 17 million a year.

[Thomas82]

Well, the eight more games Houston won account for three places in the western conf, 3rd to 6th. That's a significant amount of games. I think Harden's Houston is a better team, I don't think there is a debate here. Harden and D'Antoni are Nash's Suns on steroids.

Belichickian infrastructure; is this a joke? Kawhi has carried the Spurs more than any other player in Spurs history! And he shoots with a Jordan-like efficiency on offense. Kawhi has both higher offensive rating; 121, harden 118, and russ 112, and lower defensive rating; 102, 104 russ, 107 harden!

They do get more rebounds and assists, but their team have bigs that are mobile, athletic and great finishers near the basket. I am sure Kawhi would fare much better in those categories if he had say Adams boxing out for him or the cast that Harden has around him. Spurs, are slow and unathletic with Tony, Manu, Kyle, and Pau receiving a significant amount of minutes.

Really, what Kawhi is doing this year is absolutely amazing, don't forget Pop truly uses the regular season as a training camp where he experiments and tries lots of different line ups and rests players. As a player it is allot harder to find a rhythm if you don't have the same players consistently around you.

I find it funny how people use Belichickian infrastructure as an excuse to knock off points from Kawhi, when in reality it's his strongest suit. I mean it is expected to turn the ball over more when your coach puts new players around you every game. And then you don't play as much as the others guys. Yet you won more; 6 and 14 more games. Really, it baffles me.

Earlier this year Pop said that Kawhi needs to improve on decision making and Simmons is reading too much into it. When Kawhi does that he will be scary good, but he is already better than the likes of Russ and Harden. Harden shouldn't get the MVP, not after the way Kawhi embarrassed him.

I ask you this;

Who would you rather have on your team when facing Lebron? Harden, Russ, or Kawhi? Kawhi is the obvious answer!
How about when facing KD?

Kawhi is the most valuable player. Without him, you don't have a chance beating Lebron or the Warriors for a Ring.


Good post!!

[DMC]

I don't think he does. He seems perfectly happy scraping by on 17 million a year.

:pop: Happy? Happy?

That's the thing about introverts; you never know how unhappy they are. If you discount the "happy" aspect of things, the remaining factors are locale and wealth. Although Texas has no state taxes, San Antonio isn't the only NBA team in Texas.

I think as long as Pop stays Kawhi stays, but Pop is long in the tooth already.

[pgardn]

:pop: Happy? Happy?

That's the thing about introverts; you never know how unhappy they are. If you discount the "happy" aspect of things, the remaining factors are locale and wealth. Although Texas has no state taxes, San Antonio isn't the only NBA team in Texas.

I think as long as Pop stays Kawhi stays, but Pop is long in the tooth already.

Your original position was he wanted serious bank because that's what today's player wants.

Then a thought implying we don't know what introverts want based on not knowing how unhappy they are.

Now it's Pop.

Maybe next we could invent the idea he wants to play next to other superstars ala Durant.

[SupremeGuy]

:pop: Happy? Happy?

That's the thing about introverts; you never know how unhappy they are. If you discount the "happy" aspect of things, the remaining factors are locale and wealth. Although Texas has no state taxes, San Antonio isn't the only NBA team in Texas.

I think as long as Pop stays Kawhi stays, but Pop is long in the tooth already.We need an Ime emoji. :lol

[DMC]

Your original position was he wanted serious bank because that's what today's player wants.

No it wasn't.


Then a thought implying we don't know what introverts want based on not knowing how unhappy they are.

No, it was a response to someone saying Leonard appeared happy.


Now it's Pop.

Pop is why he would stay. You're batting .000


Maybe next we could invent the idea he wants to play next to other superstars ala Durant.
You are doing fine already, go ahead and pull that out of your ass as well.

[RGMCSE]

Boston writer comparing anything Spurs related to the Patriots is annoying as hell. Spurs got 5 first. It should be the other way around and a lot of retarded mainstream media make this same mistake often.

[Chinook]

Boston writer comparing anything Spurs related to the Patriots is annoying as hell. Spurs got 5 first. It should be the other way around and a lot of retarded mainstream media make this same mistake often.

Not to mention that the Spurs got 1 first and didn't have two cheating scandals.

[140]

Not to mention that the Spurs got 1 first and didn't have two cheating scandals.
Porker and Amy beg to differ

[Chinook]

Porker and Amy beg to differ

2-shea

[RGMCSE]

Porker and Amy beg to differ

:lol

[baseline bum]

The Unseld comparison is ridiculous considering Unseld dropped 13.8 ppg in his MVP season while Kawhi scored 25.5 a game this year. I don't know how 25.5 a game isn't considered very impactful offensively.

[skulls138]

Boston writer comparing anything Spurs related to the Patriots is annoying as hell. Spurs got 5 first. It should be the other way around and a lot of retarded mainstream media make this same mistake often.Im a Patriots fan but totally agree with you. Having said that, Bill Simmons is and always has been irrelevant in my eyes.

[Dex]

Cool image in your sig. :toast

Gracias, amigo. :toast

Here's hoping we can knock off a few more numbers than last year!

[DMC]

I didn't buy Bill Simmons as an analyst on TV. Flowery writer, drops the truth bomb from time to time but is also known to go off the reservation on the East coast bias.

[pgardn]

No it wasn't.

No, it was a response to someone saying Leonard appeared happy.

Pop is why he would stay. You're batting .000

You are doing fine already, go ahead and pull that out of your ass as well.

You clearly implied it.
Read it again.
No bank was why he would stay, again, you implied this.

Off the rails you went. I just kept your journey going.
Denial can be an ugly thing.

[DMC]

You clearly implied it.
Read it again.
No bank was why he would stay, again, you implied this.

Off the rails you went. I just kept your journey going.
Denial can be an ugly thing.

:lol Your reading comprehension is shit. I finished the point I was making with these two sentences:

"His demeanor suggests he's not interested in all the hoopla but there are only so many Tim Duncans around, big impact stars who will forego all the big money to also forego all the bullshit that goes along with it. If Kawhi wants wealth, if he realizes he could now be in a situation where he's on the WCF bubble every year, he could opt to make some lesser team better instead of sharing the space with the Tony Parkers of the world."

And you stated this:

"Your original position was he wanted serious bank because that's what today's player wants."

Then I said this:

"I think as long as Pop stays Kawhi stays, but Pop is long in the tooth already."


You really should avoid basketball discussion and stick to the faggot liberal takes you spew in the Political forum.

[pgardn]

:lol Your reading comprehension is shit. I finished the point I was making with these two sentences:

"His demeanor suggests he's not interested in all the hoopla but there are only so many Tim Duncans around, big impact stars who will forego all the big money to also forego all the bullshit that goes along with it. If Kawhi wants wealth, if he realizes he could now be in a situation where he's on the WCF bubble every year, he could opt to make some lesser team better instead of sharing the space with the Tony Parkers of the world."

And you stated this:

"Your original position was he wanted serious bank because that's what today's player wants."

Then I said this:

"I think as long as Pop stays Kawhi stays, but Pop is long in the tooth already."


You really should avoid basketball discussion and stick to the faggot liberal takes you spew in the Political forum.

Of course THEN you said this...
Walk it back old man after you get lost on your journey.
And I'm a liberal... holy shit...
Why the fuck is Pop coaching... damn liberal.
Just stop.

[DMC]

Of course THEN you said this...
Walk it back old man after you get lost on your journey.
And I'm a liberal... holy shit...
Why the fuck is Pop coaching... damn liberal.
Just stop.
:lol I said all of that before you ever responded the 1st time.

You're lost

[pgardn]

:lol I said all of that before you ever responded the 1st time.

You're lost

So what?

When others posted you walked back.
I can't post about it because others posted first?
Nice.
You just keep making up posting rules. Your additions saved you! that's the ticket. That'll fly.
Just stop. It's late.

[DMC]

So what?

When others posted you walked back.
I can't post about it because others posted first?
Nice.
You just keep making up posting rules. Your additions saved you! that's the ticket. That'll fly.
Just stop. It's late.

:lol keep digging that hole

[pgardn]

:lol keep digging that hole

Goofball...