Did anybody else cringe when..

[HarlemHeat37]

They highlighted Danny Green, Kawhi and Ginobili defending Harden with their arms up? Why is ESPN and the NBA condoning this shit and promoting it as a skill that should be encouraged?:lol

Seriously? We've reached a point where the defenders aren't even permitted to play in a conventional, normal stance that they've used their entire lives, just because 1 player has completely exploited the technicalities of NBA rules? :lol it's fucking pathetic, tbh..

Hopefully the rules committee addresses this during the off-season, it's a much larger problem than the Hack-A or anything else..

[gospursgojas]

Tough one for the competition committee. On one hand the league wants huge numbers scorers, which free throws give hardens/lebrons/westbrooks. On the other hand free throws slow the game down tremendously. Hopefully they go the preserve the beauty of the game route and kill this dumbass trend.

[HarlemHeat37]

Tough one for the competition committee. On one hand the league wants huge numbers scorers, which free throws give hardens/lebrons/westbrooks. On the other hand free throws slow the game down tremendously. Hopefully they go the preserve the beauty of the game route and kill this dumbass trend.

At the very least, it shouldn't be 3 free throws..

[Nathan89]

Ref actually tried their best not to fall for Harden's shit tonight.

[marinoman]

I've heard pop say before to players to have their hands up so refs see them and don't call fouls. With harden they have to make it even more obvious which sux, but it's.not new

[gospursgojas]

Ref actually tried their best not to fall for Harden's shit tonight.

In fact they actually called his bullshit an offensive foul. A HUGE part of hardens game is driving to the hole with no other intention other than to draw the foul-even over actually making the basket. If refs take that away, his scoring avg is cut in half.

[TheGreatYacht]

NBA has a rule for that swinging/flop shit (Durant invented it), it's not supposed to be a shooting foul only common. For some reason though that rule only applies to Kawhi....

[HarlemHeat37]

Ref actually tried their best not to fall for Harden's shit tonight.

I know, but it's the principle..I've literally never seen this before at any level of basketball:lol the players being forced to change their stance and defend in a manner that they've never defended before, while the announcers and network are turning it into a narrative that should be condoned..

Danny Green's 3rd foul, for example..Kawhi defended Harden with his arms up, Green reaches on the help, ref calls foul, replay shows he didn't touch him..that's understandable, your typical star call, but then Doug Collins says(paraphrasing), "well, he reached on Harden, automatic foul call, he should have kept his arms up like they planned" :lol it's not basketball, it's a mockery, tbh..

[gospursgojas]

At the very least, it shouldn't be 3 free throws..

I agree. But the KD swing thru move that supposedly was not gonna be called a shooting foul is still called a shooting foul all the time.

The league should do away with all foul calls on unnatural shooting motions. It would be a subjective call on what's a natural shooting motion, but most calls are subjective anyway. This would do away with the pump fake and lean 3 feet in any direction and shoot, and the new trend of shooting it as soon as defender is trying to fight over screen.

[Arcadian]

:lol They basically have to treat Harden like a glass doll out there...dont touch him, or he might shatter! :lol Fucking faggot...

[apalisoc_9]

Yeah..I thought it was disgusting.

Sadly, unless you want to fall victim to Harden's atrocious playstyle like OKC series..No choice.

I swear it felt like Harden got at least two of those every fourth wuarter in the OKC series. Was seriously maddening.

Committe needs to review. It's not a normal motion. Really getting out of hand.

[apalisoc_9]

I agree. But the KD swing thru move that supposedly was not gonna be called a shooting foul is still called a shooting foul all the time.

The league should do away with all foul calls on unnatural shooting motions. It would be a subjective call on what's a natural shooting motion, but most calls are subjective anyway. This would do away with the pump fake and lean 3 feet in any direction and shoot, and the new trend of shooting it as soon as defender is trying to fight over screen.

Nah..They've clrarely called the rip through nowadays. They never call it in the post anymore. Watch Durant..He doesnt do it anynore..we at least when they're not in the bonus.


I've seen kawhi utilize it a bit when spurs are on the bonus. Sure, its not a shooting foul but when you're in the bonus.

[BanditHiro]

yep and the defense on him suffered because of it. A defender can't apply any pressure on him

[313]

to play devils advocate, it is actually really bad practice to reach around the screener or try to grab the guy you're defending to stay with him. Of course sometimes harden hooks em and that should be addressed.

Our guys played him straight up and contained him for the most part.

[313]

The Patty mills three pt foul was pretty egregious, though. When there is a foul and a guy shoots after, it should be a sideline foul.

[Mikeanaro]

It was ugly thats for sure, but as long as they minimize fouls Im ok.

[HarlemHeat37]

to play devils advocate, it is actually really bad practice to reach around the screener or try to grab the guy you're defending to stay with him. Of course sometimes harden hooks em and that should be addressed.

Our guys played him straight up and contained him for the most part.

That's the type of shit I'm referring to..players have to alter their game just to avoid this garbage and it's being promoted:lol

F65v1__602g

Ohhh, that Harden!! He's so clever!!

[james evans]

this shit is destroying the NBA. You got players that play to go to the freethrow line and don't even focus on hitting shots and then you have to defend them by playing defense to keep from fouling more than to stop your assignment. But hey, after the 2005 finals, this is what the league wants. Freethrows bring "excitement" to the game

[Cry Havoc]

What compounds the issue and makes it worse is the fact that illegal screens make it absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to fight through unless you get extremely physical (in which case you foul the ball handler more often).

[gospursgojas]

to play devils advocate, it is actually really bad practice to reach around the screener or try to grab the guy you're defending to stay with him. Of course sometimes harden hooks em and that should be addressed.

Our guys played him straight up and contained him for the most part.

It's actually taught to get your arm in there to avoid the screener and ball handler to be able to rub, thus giving you an opportunity to fight through screen. Not to grab the ball handler though.

[apalisoc_9]

Wow..that was a close game too.

[313]

That's the type of shit I'm referring to..players have to alter their game just to avoid this garbage and it's being promoted:lol

F65v1__602g

Ohhh, that Harden!! He's so clever!!"the deception!" :lol yeah that needs to be addressed

I feel like the NBA addresses shit when it's a hot topic but when people move on to the next thing it's back to business as usual (I.E. moving screens, rip through, pump fake into defender; all were "points of emphasis" at some point)

[Chews]

Ohhh, that Harden!! He's so crafty!!

FTFY

lol at the commentator, "You have to work at this!" :lol so skillful

[apalisoc_9]

"the deception!" :lol yeah that needs to be addressed

I feel like the NBA addresses shit when it's a hot topic but when people move on to the next thing it's back to business as usual (I.E. moving screens, rip through, pump fake into defender; all were "points of emphasis" at some point)
The rip thorugh is no longer a shooting foul. Ive seen it way too many times not called a shooting foul. Players just use it when they're in the bonus.

[313]

What compounds the issue and makes it worse is the fact that illegal screens make it absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to fight through unless you get extremely physical (in which case you foul the ball handler more often).yeah both need to be addressed at the same time

[Ice009]

I know, but it's the principle..I've literally never seen this before at any level of basketball:lol the players being forced to change their stance and defend in a manner that they've never defended before, while the announcers and network are turning it into a narrative that should be condoned..

Danny Green's 3rd foul, for example..Kawhi defended Harden with his arms up, Green reaches on the help, ref calls foul, replay shows he didn't touch him..that's understandable, your typical star call, but then Doug Collins says(paraphrasing), "well, he reached on Harden, automatic foul call, he should have kept his arms up like they planned" :lol it's not basketball, it's a mockery, tbh..

Yeah, I remember that quite clearly. I was pretty mad at Doug Collins for saying that. Ridiculous stuff from the shitty networks yet again.

[SpursforSix]

It's fucking retarded. To have to compliment a team for playing with their hands up like a Mary Poppins. Although it is a genius move by Pop.

[jermaine]

Kawhi does this every once in awhile. But the call isn't consistent like it is with Harden. But it is pathetic.... You can't even play good defense on him. The stupid ass refs act like they can't see him hooking their arm.

[UZER]

That's the type of shit I'm referring to..players have to alter their game just to avoid this garbage and it's being promoted:lol

F65v1__602g

Ohhh, that Harden!! He's so clever!!

That shit needs to he called on offensive foul. And the one fucking time Patty semi does it, Doug Collins starts whining about the league needing to look at that kind of play.

Really? You gonna that out on Patty Mills? Fuck Doug Collins.

[Horse]

yep and the defense on him suffered because of it. A defender can't apply any pressure on him
And that's why you can't even tell how good he really is. Defenders are scared to go near him.

[Chinook]

Yeah, Doug was condescending as fuck there.

[Down Under]

As DC said, would be a nightmare to ref him. Players have been initiating contact for decades, Harden has just taken it to another level.

[sananspursfan21]

Until about 2012, I eye witnessed maybe 3 4-point plays in my life. Since, that number has skyrocketed. It's pretty annoying

[NameLess Scrub]

I know, but it's the principle..I've literally never seen this before at any level of basketball:lol the players being forced to change their stance and defend in a manner that they've never defended before, while the announcers and network are turning it into a narrative that should be condoned..

Danny Green's 3rd foul, for example..Kawhi defended Harden with his arms up, Green reaches on the help, ref calls foul, replay shows he didn't touch him..that's understandable, your typical star call, but then Doug Collins says(paraphrasing), "well, he reached on Harden, automatic foul call, he should have kept his arms up like they planned" :lol it's not basketball, it's a mockery, tbh..

I thought Danny actually hit Harden that particular time, from what I saw. But in general I agree with you. It's horrible that the announcers treat it like it's a good skill to deceive the refs.

There was a play with Lou when Patty I think used the fight over screen foul and Lou kept complaining to the ref. That time the announcers actually acknowledge the irony.

[jermaine]

That shit needs to he called on offensive foul. And the one fucking time Patty semi does it, Doug Collins starts whining about the league needing to look at that kind of play.

Really? You gonna that out on Patty Mills? Fuck Doug Collins.

Doug Collins is a Spurs homer... I don't think he's a Spurs haters.

[spursince#99]

It's almost like a black man whenever the police is around.

[RGMCSE]

That's only because they're boss was in the arena.

[pgardn]

They highlighted Danny Green, Kawhi and Ginobili defending Harden with their arms up? Why is ESPN and the NBA condoning this shit and promoting it as a skill that should be encouraged?:lol

Seriously? We've reached a point where the defenders aren't even permitted to play in a conventional, normal stance that they've used their entire lives, just because 1 player has completely exploited the technicalities of NBA rules? :lol it's fucking pathetic, tbh..

Hopefully the rules committee addresses this during the off-season, it's a much larger problem than the Hack-A or anything else..

Thoroughly agree.

It is a gigantic disadvantage for balance and thus moving your feet properly to move with your arms in the air. It goes against the basic athletic stance in almost every sport. But the NBA loves their scoring. Fortunately its also leading to boredom on the foul line.

One thing I have to keep in mind is the NBA is all about entertainment. I assumed the entertainment was naturally embedded in good competition. I have been proved wrong.

[DarrinS]

You play with the rules you've got, unfortunately. The Spurs were pretty damned disciplined about not fouling him. I just rewatched highlights and even his layups weren't really aggressively contested.

[duncan2k5]

We need to go under that harden screen... I can live with him shooting threes all night

[will_spurs]

That's because teams are allowing themselves to give away soft fouls like that. Yank his shoulder out and faceplant him a couple of times when he tries to hook and see if he comes back for more. At least everybody will know why he got 3 free throws (if he can even get into the shooting motion in the first place).

[coachmac87]

I do find it frustrating and I really don't like watching or respect Harden as a player for it tbh. But at the same time...he's really the only player I've seen that consistently does it AND gets away with it..

If there were multiple players getting away with it at a high level they'd probably change. But it's on the officials IMO to understand Hardens playing styles.

[UZER]

That's because teams are allowing themselves to give away soft fouls like that. Yank his shoulder out and faceplant him a couple of times when he tries to hook and see if he comes back for more. At least everybody will know why he got 3 free throws (if he can even get into the shooting motion in the first place).

Boom. He likes fake contact. He does not real contact and will shy away from it.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Agreed. Shit is whack AF.

[tholdren]

not nearly as much as I cringed when Irving took the terrible shot in last year's finals to beat the warriors. just keeps glorifying street ball.

[lilbthebasedgod]

They highlighted Danny Green, Kawhi and Ginobili defending Harden with their arms up? Why is ESPN and the NBA condoning this shit and promoting it as a skill that should be encouraged?:lol

Seriously? We've reached a point where the defenders aren't even permitted to play in a conventional, normal stance that they've used their entire lives, just because 1 player has completely exploited the technicalities of NBA rules? :lol it's fucking pathetic, tbh..

Hopefully the rules committee addresses this during the off-season, it's a much larger problem than the Hack-A or anything else..
In the ideal world everyone would play like harden and thus this would become a good defensive stance. I say keep it on.

[Clipper Nation]

How is it "ideal" to effectively ban defenders from making a play for the ball or making it difficult for the ballhandler to turn the corner?

[sasaint]

yeah both need to be addressed at the same time

No way that happens - especially the illegal screen part of the equation. That would put a serious damper on the League's darling teams of the moment.

[GSH]

They highlighted Danny Green, Kawhi and Ginobili defending Harden with their arms up? Why is ESPN and the NBA condoning this shit and promoting it as a skill that should be encouraged?:lol

Seriously? We've reached a point where the defenders aren't even permitted to play in a conventional, normal stance that they've used their entire lives, just because 1 player has completely exploited the technicalities of NBA rules? :lol it's fucking pathetic, tbh..

Hopefully the rules committee addresses this during the off-season, it's a much larger problem than the Hack-A or anything else..


That's a rhetorical question, right? Yes, we have reached that point.

We've reached the point where an offensive star who wants some space to operate can just plan a hand in the defender's chest and make a full-arm shove.

We've reached the point where an offensive star can made two dribbles with his hand under the ball, so the defense can't tell if he's going to pass or keep dribbling.

We've reached the point where certain bigs can come out and "hedge", by just shoving the shit out of a much-smaller PG out at the top of the circle.

The effort to call moving screens? Over and forgotten. The effort to call technical for arguing with every damn call? Over and forgotten.

The rules haven't been officially changed, but the game is clearly being called to maximize a certain style of play. The guys who are the best at that style dominate. And, no, it won't get changed.

[sasaint]

We need to go under that harden screen... I can live with him shooting threes all night

This!

[sasaint]

That's a rhetorical question, right? Yes, we have reached that point.

We've reached the point where an offensive star who wants some space to operate can just plan a hand in the defender's chest and make a full-arm shove.

We've reached the point where an offensive star can made two dribbles with his hand under the ball, so the defense can't tell if he's going to pass or keep dribbling.

We've reached the point where certain bigs can come out and "hedge", by just shoving the shit out of a much-smaller PG out at the top of the circle.

The effort to call moving screens? Over and forgotten. The effort to call technical for arguing with every damn call? Over and forgotten.

The rules haven't been officially changed, but the game is clearly being called to maximize a certain style of play. The guys who are the best at that style dominate. And, no, it won't get changed.

You forgot the first rule that was allowed to be flouted - traveling. In the days before most of ST can remember, merely changing the pivot point from heel to toe was actually regarded as traveling - and enforced by officials!

[LoneStarState'sPride]

It's a crying shame that we have to make a mockery of NBA defense to counter the mockery of basketball that is Harden's offensive "game."

But, in exaggerating this absurdity, Pop is helping our case far more than just complaining to the refs/media.

Chess, sons. Chess.

[GSH]

It's a crying shame that we have to make a mockery of NBA defense to counter the mockery of basketball that is Harden's offensive "game."

But, in exaggerating this absurdity, Pop is helping our case far more than just complaining to the refs/media.

Chess, sons. Chess.


"Hands up, don't whistle."

It was a lot more subtle than Fizzdale's "take that for data", and probably a lot more effective. One time Danny let his hands down and got called for reaching, and Pop blew up. He directed it at Danny and not the ref. But the refs get the message just the same: "If you don't hold your hands up where the refs can see them, Harden is going to get a whistle. Pop took away all the gray area.

[The_Coyote]

I found it amusing. Harden's kryptonite = jazz hands.

[gospursgojas]

We need to go under that harden screen... I can live with him shooting threes all night

Did you watch game 1?

[SupremeGuy]

Ref actually tried their best not to fall for Harden's shit tonight.Yeah, I agree. If we lost we'd be bitching more tho.

[DMC]

The foul beyond the 3 should be reviewable. If it's a foul, that's fine, but if the offense initiated the contact then the call can be reversed and even an offensive foul can be called.