Do you still see Tim Duncan as GOAT of the post-Jordan era?

[Thomas82]

Most people believe that this honor goes to LeBron because of all of his MVPs, getting to the finals 6 straight years, and last year bringing a championship to the city of Cleveland for the first time in 52 years. I still say it's TD......he got his 5 rings in a much tougher Western Conference, facing some of the deepest and most balanced teams in history and destroyed opponents at his position. If not for me being at work right now I would come up with more reasons.

Your thoughts?

[Proxy]

don't really see Lebron as part of the group that we consider post-MJ era

[Thomas82]

don't really see Lebron as part of the group that we consider post-MJ era

Fair enough.

[spurraider21]

lebrons a better player than duncan... but no player did more for a franchise than duncan did for the spurs

[dabom]

LeBron is lucky to be a steroid colluding faggot. :lmao

[coachmac87]

I think when it's all said and done the "era's" will be set by decades IMO.

99'-09' Duncan/Kobe/Shaq Era

Say what you want but each of those players dominated during that time frame. Honestly you have to include all 3 because they all went hand in hand each were in their primes at one point..

10'-Current

LeBron James Era

His legacy is being written as we speak and tbh THIS year is the biggest chapter yet...if he beats GSW he'd be the GOAT. Warriors could really fuck things up though if they pull a three peat or win b2b

[SpursFan86]

I'm sure I'll get a ton of shit for saying this here, but LeBron has pretty much locked himself in as at least the 2nd best player of all-time by this point (assuming he doesn't suffer some career-ending injury his next game or something).

Looking at LeBron's 10-year span from '08-now is just absurd...

RS: 27.3 ppg (60.3 TS%), 7.5 rpg, 7.3 rpg, 1.6 spg, 0.8 bpg, 3.5 TO, 29.2 PER, .266 WS/48, 10.2 BPM

PS: 28.4 ppg (57.9 TS%), 9 rpg, 6.7 apg, 1.8 spg, 1 bpg, 3.5 TO, 28.7 PER, .254 WS/48, 11.3 BPM

As of now, Duncan has still had a better career than LeBron. But LeBron is the better player, and will almost certainly have the better career when it's all said and done too.

[Arcadian]

Yes, Duncan is 2-1 against Lebron in the finals, and it should be 3-0 without the fuckery.

[lefty20]

Assuming current trajectory, LBJ is will on his way to a no worse than #2 finish on the goat list. Personally, I would much rather have him sitting at the top than DK.

But then again, I'd find a way to be ok with LBJ getting klawblocked on his rise to #1, tbh.

[GSH]

Not taking anything away from LeBron, but yes. It's always hard to compare players who do it different ways, so there always be arguments that can't be won. But if I was going to get one prime-age player to build a franchise around, and the goal was winning and not selling tickets? It's the Big Fundamental. LeBron can take over a game, but Tim was an anchor for a whole team.

[Keepin' it real]

I love Duncan, but he simply didn't score enough to be considered GOAT. Stats matter.

19-11-3 with 5 rings is amazing, but if Lebron were a Spur and Duncan were in the East, everyone here would scoff at the notion of 19-11-3 > 27-7-7.

[Robz4000]

Nah, it's LeBron; hell, when its all said and done it'll prolly be LeBron at the top of the NBA mountain. Duncan is second though, and a Top 5 all-time player.

[dabom]

Colluding cuck did it twice. He's legacy would be shit if he was still a cavalier with zero fucking rings. :lmao

[DMC]

Lebron has been the best player in the league since he entered the league.

[tmtcsc]

Lebron has been the best player in the league since he entered the league.

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/webdr01/2013/2/26/12/anigif_enhanced-buzz-3541-1361898120-2.gif
https://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/U6nNtPH4xtGQOcIz8uFRpCbmzrE/fit-in/1024x1024/filters:format_auto-!!-:strip_icc-!!-/2014/02/12/999/n/1922283/c317ba1d9477b5b0_tumblr_mnfzbegsJX1r1osepo2_r1_400/i/When-Tried-Make-Logan-Hannah-Thing.gif

[Thomas82]

Not taking anything away from LeBron, but yes. It's always hard to compare players who do it different ways, so there always be arguments that can't be won. But if I was going to get one prime-age player to build a franchise around, and the goal was winning and not selling tickets? It's the Big Fundamental. LeBron can take over a game, but Tim was an anchor for a whole team.

Good post!!

[TheDoctor]

I see a lot of "spurs fans" saying LeBron but only 2 votes against TD in the Poll, wtf?

Scared playas :lol

[DMC]

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/webdr01/2013/2/26/12/anigif_enhanced-buzz-3541-1361898120-2.gif
https://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/U6nNtPH4xtGQOcIz8uFRpCbmzrE/fit-in/1024x1024/filters:format_auto-!!-:strip_icc-!!-/2014/02/12/999/n/1922283/c317ba1d9477b5b0_tumblr_mnfzbegsJX1r1osepo2_r1_400/i/When-Tried-Make-Logan-Hannah-Thing.gif

What, Kobe?

Lebron averaged over 20pts a game in his rookie year. Same year Tim averaged 22 and Kobe 24. Lebron would go on to carry his team to the Finals while Kobe was crying to SAS and losing in the 1st round to the Suns with a better team than Lebron had. Tim's averages dropped each of the following 3 years. Tim rang in 2005 and 2007 but wasn't at Lebron's level either time. In fact, it's argued here and elsewhere that Manu should have won the Finals MVP in 2005 and Tony did win it in 2007. Tim was great, but he was actually on his way down from his incredibly high peak. He had a long, flat, high performance level until just a few years ago but Lebron has remained consistent or improved.

If Lebron wasn't better than Tim or Kobe when he entered the league, then Mike Brown must have taught him the game of basketball because everyone seems to rate Lebron higher now, even though Tim has 5 rings and 3 Finals MVPs. So did the awards make Lebron better or did Lebron win the awards because he was better?

http://i.imgur.com/1ZcuGz7.jpg

[Fireball]

TD is my favorite player ever ... I am biased

[SPURt]

I think of things in decades:

pre-70: Bill Russell
70's: Kareem
80's: Magic/Bird
90's: MJ
2000's: Timmy
2010's: Lebron

MJ overlapped with Bird/Magic in a very similar way to Lebron with Kobe/Timmy.

[thiste]

Championships still matter most to me. Consistency too. And everybody knows how much the leastern conference is worth.

[Thomas82]

Championships still matter most to me. Consistency too. And everybody knows how much the leastern conference is worth.

[SpursFan86]

If Lebron wasn't better than Tim or Kobe when he entered the league, then Mike Brown must have taught him the game of basketball because everyone seems to rate Lebron higher now, even though Tim has 5 rings and 3 Finals MVPs. So did the awards make Lebron better or did Lebron win the awards because he was better?

What? Am I misinterpreting your post, or are you trying to say LeBron was the best player in the league even in his first few seasons? There's no questioning that LeBron improved dramatically from '04 to '08. He came into the league as an 18-year old...of course he fucking improved :lol

I can see the argument for LeBron pretty much being the best player in the league since the '07-08 season. No way in hell was he the best player from '04-07 though. You think rookie LeBron was better than KG in '04? :lol KG was an absolute monster that year.

[sammy]

Most people believe that this honor goes to LeBron because of all of his MVPs, getting to the finals 6 straight years, and last year bringing a championship to the city of Cleveland for the first time in 52 years. I still say it's TD......he got his 5 rings in a much tougher Western Conference, facing some of the deepest and most balanced teams in history and destroyed opponents at his position. If not for me being at work right now I would come up with more reasons.

Your thoughts?
It's Tim Duncan! Tim Duncan is the GOAT! Lebron has had a cakewalk to the Finals because the Eastern Conference is weak! Tim Duncan's has fought wars to win his Championships, teams in the West are tough and it was a battle to just get to the Finals!

[lilbthebasedgod]

Lebron is better.

[GSH]

I love Duncan, but he simply didn't score enough to be considered GOAT. Stats matter.


Yeah, but you should probably take a few minutes to understand what the stats mean.

First of all, Tim played for 19 years, and LeBron has played for 14. Those last 5 years for Duncan were after he had begun to decline with age, and also after Pop had begun to reduce his minutes per game. You can't throw all the "old-Duncan" stats in against LeBron, who hasn't reached that age yet. If you compare LeBron's Per-36 scoring to Tim's, for the first 14 seasons, you would find that Tim averaged around 21 PTS/36, and LeBron around 25 PTS/36. Not such a huge difference that I would disqualify Tim on that basis. How about you?

For about 10 years, Tim averaged something like 11 FTA/36 minutes. LeBron never averaged over 9. That stat alone tells you what they had to do to try and contain Tim. He drew a hard double team on virtually every play during his prime years. Tim also averaged almost 12 RB/36 in his prime years vs. 6.7 for LeBron. If you want to discount the importance of those things, fire away.

It's always hard to get a handle on individual defensive contribution through stats. People always focus on blocks, and Tim averaged about 3x as many blocks per 36 minutes as LeBron during those first 15 seasons. (Roughly 2.2 BLK for Tim vs. .7 BLK for LeBron.) But it goes WAY beyond that. LeBron is a very good defender. But Tim was a fucking mountain in the middle. LeBron disrupts plays - Tim disrupted games on defense. Game plans.

Put it another way. Put a 25 year-old Tim Duncan on this team and tell me what you think it would look like. In case you've forgotten, Tim put up 25.5 PTS, 12.7 REB, 3.7 AST, and 2.5 BLK. He was too much for any one player to handle on the offensive end, and he was a nightmare for other teams on the defensive end.

LeBron is a GREAT individual player. But nobody post-Jordan has done as much to make his TEAM a Championship contender as Timmy. So I guess GOAT depends a lot on how you measure greatness.

[Thomas82]

Yeah, but you should probably take a few minutes to understand what the stats mean.

First of all, Tim played for 19 years, and LeBron has played for 14. Those last 5 years for Duncan were after he had begun to decline with age, and also after Pop had begun to reduce his minutes per game. You can't throw all the "old-Duncan" stats in against LeBron, who hasn't reached that age yet. If you compare LeBron's Per-36 scoring to Tim's, for the first 14 seasons, you would find that Tim averaged around 21 PTS/36, and LeBron around 25 PTS/36. Not such a huge difference that I would disqualify Tim on that basis. How about you?

For about 10 years, Tim averaged something like 11 FTA/36 minutes. LeBron never averaged over 9. That stat alone tells you what they had to do to try and contain Tim. He drew a hard double team on virtually every play during his prime years. Tim also averaged almost 12 RB/36 in his prime years vs. 6.7 for LeBron. If you want to discount the importance of those things, fire away.

It's always hard to get a handle on individual defensive contribution through stats. People always focus on blocks, and Tim averaged about 3x as many blocks per 36 minutes as LeBron during those first 15 seasons. (Roughly 2.2 BLK for Tim vs. .7 BLK for LeBron.) But it goes WAY beyond that. LeBron is a very good defender. But Tim was a fucking mountain in the middle. LeBron disrupts plays - Tim disrupted games on defense. Game plans.

Put it another way. Put a 25 year-old Tim Duncan on this team and tell me what you think it would look like. In case you've forgotten, Tim put up 25.5 PTS, 12.7 REB, 3.7 AST, and 2.5 BLK. He was too much for any one player to handle on the offensive end, and he was a nightmare for other teams on the defensive end.

LeBron is a GREAT individual player. But nobody post-Jordan has done as much to make his TEAM a Championship contender as Timmy. So I guess GOAT depends a lot on how you measure greatness.


EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT post!!

[SpursFan86]

Yeah, but you should probably take a few minutes to understand what the stats mean.

First of all, Tim played for 19 years, and LeBron has played for 14. Those last 5 years for Duncan were after he had begun to decline with age, and also after Pop had begun to reduce his minutes per game. You can't throw all the "old-Duncan" stats in against LeBron, who hasn't reached that age yet. If you compare LeBron's Per-36 scoring to Tim's, for the first 14 seasons, you would find that Tim averaged around 21 PTS/36, and LeBron around 25 PTS/36. Not such a huge difference that I would disqualify Tim on that basis. How about you?

For about 10 years, Tim averaged something like 11 FTA/36 minutes. LeBron never averaged over 9. That stat alone tells you what they had to do to try and contain Tim. He drew a hard double team on virtually every play during his prime years. Tim also averaged almost 12 RB/36 in his prime years vs. 6.7 for LeBron. If you want to discount the importance of those things, fire away.

It's always hard to get a handle on individual defensive contribution through stats. People always focus on blocks, and Tim averaged about 3x as many blocks per 36 minutes as LeBron during those first 15 seasons. (Roughly 2.2 BLK for Tim vs. .7 BLK for LeBron.) But it goes WAY beyond that. LeBron is a very good defender. But Tim was a fucking mountain in the middle. LeBron disrupts plays - Tim disrupted games on defense. Game plans.

Put it another way. Put a 25 year-old Tim Duncan on this team and tell me what you think it would look like. In case you've forgotten, Tim put up 25.5 PTS, 12.7 REB, 3.7 AST, and 2.5 BLK. He was too much for any one player to handle on the offensive end, and he was a nightmare for other teams on the defensive end.

LeBron is a GREAT individual player. But nobody post-Jordan has done as much to make his TEAM a Championship contender as Timmy. So I guess GOAT depends a lot on how you measure greatness.

25.1 points per 36 on 58.4 TS% and 20.7 points per 36 on 55.2 TS% are vastly different numbers.

Your point about FTA is flat-out false. LeBron averages 7.6 FTA per 36 for his career, and had 3 seasons where he was averaging 9+ FTA per 36. Duncan averaged 6.8 FTA for his first 14 seasons, and only had one season where he put up more than 8 FTA per 36.

You mention rebounds, but then conveniently leave out assists. LeBron averages 6.5 assists per 36 for his career; Duncan was at 3.1 for his first 14 seasons.

[TD 21]

I love Duncan, but he simply didn't score enough to be considered GOAT. Stats matter.

19-11-3 with 5 rings is amazing, but if Lebron were a Spur and Duncan were in the East, everyone here would scoff at the notion of 19-11-3 > 27-7-7.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Duncan was better than James (though I do think the way he won was more impressive), but relying heavily on counting stats is archaic and downright foolish. James is a more efficient, versatile scorer, but not to the extent their averages suggest. He has a 4.5% higher usage rate and has 1, 741 more 3's, so obviously he scored more.

I don't know why so many seem to be unaware of counting stats and scoring in particular, being largely tied to circumstance and mindset. Aldridge is a perfect example. As bad as he'd looked offensively this season, he's actually been in line with what he's done throughout his career. He's averaging 4-6 less ppg because his usage rate has dropped by 3-6% and his minutes by 4-5 per game. He'd still be the same player if he were averaging 21-23 again, though.

[tenbeersbold]

No one who has hidden out East for his whole career deserves to be in the conversation with Duncan,sorry!

East has been shite since Duncan dismantled the Pistons
If Leloser was all about the game,he'd a come out west to battle the best players on a regular basis

He hid so he ain't even in the conversation.

[Keepin' it real]

Yeah, but you should probably take a few minutes to understand what the stats mean.


I'm not going to sit here and tell you that Duncan was better than James (though I do think the way he won was more impressive), but relying heavily on counting stats is archaic and downright foolish. James is a more efficient, versatile scorer, but not to the extent their averages suggest. He has a 4.5% higher usage rate and has 1, 741 more 3's, so obviously he scored more.

I don't know why so many seem to be unaware of counting stats and scoring in particular, being largely tied to circumstance and mindset.

I look at things from an overall career perspective, so the final averages are most important. I'm a casual fan, as most are. And from a casual fan perspective, I can tell you 19 ppg doesn't belong in any greatest NBA player discussion. It simply isn't a high enough scoring average.

I still happily wear my Spurs 21 jersey!

[Thomas82]

I look at things from an overall career perspective, so the final averages are most important. I'm a casual fan, as most are. And from a casual fan perspective, I can tell you 19 ppg doesn't belong in any greatest NBA player discussion. It simply isn't a high enough scoring average.

I still happily wear my Spurs 21 jersey!

I guess Magic Johnson shouldn't be discussed among the greatest ever then, his career average is 19.5 PPG.

[GSH]

I look at things from an overall career perspective, so the final averages are most important. I'm a casual fan, as most are. And from a casual fan perspective, I can tell you 19 ppg doesn't belong in any greatest NBA player discussion. It simply isn't a high enough scoring average.

I still happily wear my Spurs 21 jersey!


Well you're casual all right. Someone says GOAT, and you think "best scorer". That's what casual fans do, which is why we have the "new NBA".

If you're going to use just raw stats that way then you really have to consider Kevin Durant. I mean, you do know he's outscored LeBron for 7 of the last 8 years... right? His EFG% has been better, his 3P% has been better over that time. His 2P% has been better over that time. His FT% has been WAY better. But you wouldn't consider calling Durant the GOAT for the last 8 years? Why not? Because you're considering other things, besides just scoring?

Be a casual fan, but at least think about what you're saying.

[jimbo]

until last year he was. 3-1 comeback against a 73 win team putting up the numbers he did put Lebron over Duncan

[DMC]

Yeah, but you should probably take a few minutes to understand what the stats mean.

First of all, Tim played for 19 years, and LeBron has played for 14. Those last 5 years for Duncan were after he had begun to decline with age, and also after Pop had begun to reduce his minutes per game. You can't throw all the "old-Duncan" stats in against LeBron, who hasn't reached that age yet. If you compare LeBron's Per-36 scoring to Tim's, for the first 14 seasons, you would find that Tim averaged around 21 PTS/36, and LeBron around 25 PTS/36. Not such a huge difference that I would disqualify Tim on that basis. How about you?

For about 10 years, Tim averaged something like 11 FTA/36 minutes. LeBron never averaged over 9. That stat alone tells you what they had to do to try and contain Tim. He drew a hard double team on virtually every play during his prime years. Tim also averaged almost 12 RB/36 in his prime years vs. 6.7 for LeBron. If you want to discount the importance of those things, fire away.

It's always hard to get a handle on individual defensive contribution through stats. People always focus on blocks, and Tim averaged about 3x as many blocks per 36 minutes as LeBron during those first 15 seasons. (Roughly 2.2 BLK for Tim vs. .7 BLK for LeBron.) But it goes WAY beyond that. LeBron is a very good defender. But Tim was a fucking mountain in the middle. LeBron disrupts plays - Tim disrupted games on defense. Game plans.

Put it another way. Put a 25 year-old Tim Duncan on this team and tell me what you think it would look like. In case you've forgotten, Tim put up 25.5 PTS, 12.7 REB, 3.7 AST, and 2.5 BLK. He was too much for any one player to handle on the offensive end, and he was a nightmare for other teams on the defensive end.

LeBron is a GREAT individual player. But nobody post-Jordan has done as much to make his TEAM a Championship contender as Timmy. So I guess GOAT depends a lot on how you measure greatness.
I agree with most of this except for the fact that Lebron was in Cleveland, they made it to the Finals. He goes to Miami, they make it every year he's there. He goes back to Cleveland, they've made it every year he's been there. Prior to Lebron, Cleveland was a lottery team.

You cannot make your team much better than Lebron has made his, help or not, because help comes for a reason.

[GSH]

I agree with most of this except for the fact that Lebron was in Cleveland, they made it to the Finals. He goes to Miami, they make it every year he's there. He goes back to Cleveland, they've made it every year he's been there. Prior to Lebron, Cleveland was a lottery team.

You cannot make your team much better than Lebron has made his, help or not, because help comes for a reason.

Can't argue with LeBron being damned good.

How about this? If I'm starting a franchise, and I get to pick one of the two GOAT candidates, I'll pick the tall one who's a perennial anchor in the middle?

[Thomas82]

I suspect LeBron might get a pass for missing the playoffs in his first year in the West. Either way, it's not a good look for him.

[GreekSpursfan]

Short answer YES.

[RC_Drunkford]

of course. Duncan is an Top 5 all-time player

[Thomas82]

of course. Duncan is an Top 5 all-time player

Facts!!

[rascal]

I think of things in decades:

pre-70: Bill Russell
70's: Kareem
80's: Magic/Bird
90's: MJ
2000's: Timmy
2010's: Lebron

MJ overlapped with Bird/Magic in a very similar way to Lebron with Kobe/Timmy.

You forget Wilt?