Small ball

[RD2191]

What is it exactly? Is it the future of basketball? Should the Spurs try to go small to compete with the Dubs?

[Chinook]

The Warriors don't play small-ball a lot. They just have an undersized PF. Contrasted with the Celtics, who play small most of the time. To match the Warriors, the Spurs shouldn't try to out-small them. They simply need to become a more diverse offense. Going small can do that, but getting another perimeter scorer would do that more, as well as getting away from predictable post-ups from like 15 feet out.

[Dex]

http://i.imgur.com/l7UMLEB.gif

[rjv]

length and shooting wins in the NBA. golden state has both. spurs have one and some of the other.

[RD2191]

The Warriors don't play small-ball a lot. They just have an undersized PF. Contrasted with the Celtics, who play small most of the time. To match the Warriors, the Spurs shouldn't try to out-small them. They simply need to become a more diverse offense. Going small can do that, but getting another perimeter scorer would do that more, as well as getting away from predictable post-ups from like 15 feet out.

So small ball is technically just a style of play as opposed to it referring to the size of the players on the court? Can a traditional lineup play "small"? I'm a little confused here.

[RD2191]

http://i.imgur.com/l7UMLEB.gif

:lol

[TD 21]

The key to small ball, is to have big, long smalls, who can punch above their weight in defensive rebounding, rim protection and post defense (despite post play diminishing, this one is important for these types playing up a position, because teams will go at them unless they can prove they can handle it). That's the best of both worlds.

Pop alluded to this often when asked about Diaw, saying "he allows us to play big and small at the same time" because he could get by handling limited - non threatening wings off the dribble and was stout enough to bang in the post. Of course, he couldn't defensive rebound or protect the rim, but luckily they had Duncan and Leonard bracketing him, to take care of that.

The trouble is finding big wings and undersized bigs, who have the versatility to do these things, because being small for the sake of it, is no good.

[Joseph Kony]

Not necessarily small ball, but lineups with versatile front court defenders who can switch on the pick and rolls, thats where we're at tbh. you can still play big ball but you need athletic PFs/Cs to switch on the perimeter. Pop hanging out to this old man game with plodding 7 footers posting up for half the shot clock is ridiculous, needs to get with the program already

[rjv]

but i do think that your question begs another question which is whether or not the era of posting up a big is on the verge of extinction.

[Snaq O'Meal]

This was the ultimate "small ball" team that the Twinks are trying to emulate:

https://www.nbamaniacs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Chicago-Bulls-90.jpg

Note that no one there is particularly small and exploitable on defence.

[TheDoctor]

What is it exactly? Is it the future of basketball? Should the Spurs try to go small to compete with the Dubs?

You mean like LaMarcus basketball? Shrinking when it counts?

[ace3g]

Warriors have multiple SG/SF/PF that can guard multiple positions and can handle the ball.

[SpursforSix]

What is it exactly?

Look in your pants.

[daslicer]

but i do think that your question begs another question which is whether or not the era of posting up a big is on the verge of extinction.

Currently there is not many bigs that can post up in this league. There are a very few and its a huge reason why Draymond can get away with being an undersized PF in today's league. Al Jefferson,Okafor,Cousins,Towns are the only guys that come to my mind that are post up players currently in the league. Pau when he was younger was a pretty good post up player but he's not as effective anymore due to old age and being banged up. The bigs today can't post up and I would say what I find remarkable is how Kawhi's post up game is better than over 90 percent of the bigs in the league.

Whenever the next Duncan or Shaq type of player comes out I will say look out because no team will have the personnel to defend that type of player.

[TheDoctor]

Look in your pants.
:lol

[picnroll]

Swap out Gasol for a prime Duncan and keep Zaza from sliding under Kawhi and see how GS would fair. There are no Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem's anymoreD

[dabom]

Look in your pants.

My nig RD but this funny. :lol

[RD2191]

Look in your pants.

:lol

[GSH]

What is it exactly? Is it the future of basketball? Should the Spurs try to go small to compete with the Dubs?


No, the Spurs just need really big guys who are quick enough to stay in front of 2 guards, fly out to cover the 3P line and then recover, and athletic enough to dunk with their elbows.

[RD2191]

No, the Spurs just need really big guys who are quick enough to stay in front of 2 guards, fly out to cover the 3P line and then recover, and athletic enough to dunk with their elbows.

Awesome, should be easy to find. :rolleyes

[DAF86]

The Warriors don't play small-ball a lot. They just have an undersized PF. Contrasted with the Celtics, who play small most of the time. To match the Warriors, the Spurs shouldn't try to out-small them. They simply need to become a more diverse offense. Going small can do that, but getting another perimeter scorer would do that more, as well as getting away from predictable post-ups from like 15 feet out.

Draymond got to the league as a SF, tbh. So that idea of "Warriors don't play small ball a lot. They just have an undersized PF" is highly arguable.

Either way, SF or PF, what matters is to have the number 4 position covered with a guy that is a threat from 3, and feels comfortable defending the perimeter. The days of two slow footed bigmen that play with their back to the basket are long gone. That's why Aldridge needs to either play center or get the fuck out.

[sananspursfan21]

Just a fad.

[DAF86]

This was the ultimate "small ball" team that the Twinks are trying to emulate:

https://www.nbamaniacs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Chicago-Bulls-90.jpg

Note that no one there is particularly small and exploitable on defence.

Exactly, positioneless basketball is where the NBA is heading. It started with the easiest shift: "stretch PF". Then we saw the Warriors go even a little bit further with their "death" lineup, which features no center, and I think it will eventually get to the point where we see lineups with no PG's.

I think it won't take long 'till we see a lineup in which everyplayer is betweem 6'5" and 6'9" (could be higher if the player has mobility like Durant or Giannis).

The Spurs have two very interesting young players to make something like this work: Murray and Bertans. I hope they become rotation players next season.

[daslicer]

Just a fad.

Pretty much this. The moment another Shaq or Duncan enters the league small ball is dead.

[sananspursfan21]

This was the ultimate "small ball" team that the Twinks are trying to emulate:

https://www.nbamaniacs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Chicago-Bulls-90.jpg

Note that no one there is particularly small and exploitable on defence.

Dennis, Scottie, Mike, Deng, and Pau. That was a good unit

[Chinook]

So small ball is technically just a style of play as opposed to it referring to the size of the players on the court? Can a traditional lineup play "small"? I'm a little confused here.

Small-ball is a style of play more than anything else. I don't know that a traditional lineup can play small, but a lineup with undersized players can play traditionally, which is why guys like Green, Hayes, Rodman and Barkley fit. However, there are multiple types of small-ball, like 2PG, 3-guard, four perimeter players and two power-forwards. That's one of the reasons why the second question in your OP is kind of weird. What lineup they'll use is (should be) based on their roster's strengths, not a desire to be GS.

[Chinook]

Draymond got to the league as a SF, tbh. So that idea of "Warriors don't play small ball a lot. They just have an undersized PF" is highly arguable.

It's more arguable that Green was playing out of position as a wing. Not that this is a point to debate about, really. Being able to play SF doesn't take away from the fact that Dray can and does play PF against every four in the league and that he's excelled in that spot. He plays there because that's his position, not because the Warriors are trying to chess-match against their opponents. When he plays the five, then that's a different story.


Either way, SF or PF, what matters is to have the number 4 position covered with a guy that is a threat from 3, and feels comfortable defending the perimeter. The days of two slow footed bigmen that play with their back to the basket are long gone. That's why Aldridge needs to either play center or get the fuck out.

Aldridge was fine as a PF, though I've wanted him at C for a year or more now. His issues is that he's not being assertive enough on O and not getting the ball where he should. If he were pounding inside and scoring, the fact that he's not a natural on the perimeter would be a lot less important.

[daslicer]

Don't believe going small is the way to go to beat the Warriors. It's going to take some out of the box thinking to beat this team but to try to beat them at their style will be suicide. Spurs were overwhelming them with their size up until Kawhi got hurt. My bold prediction is the team that beats the Warriors will beat them by playing a different style of basketball.

[Chinook]

but i do think that your question begs another question which is whether or not the era of posting up a big is on the verge of extinction.

It's not. What is endangered is the Spurs-style post-ups where the big is expected to get their own shot after catching the ball in a bad position. A post-up in transition or after a duck-in would still work, but the Spurs had no creativity in their sets this season. Pop totally dropped the ball with Aldridge, and LMA hasn't helped much either.

[GSH]

Awesome, should be easy to find. :rolleyes


Heh. Yeah, that's sort of the point.

Look, I don't know if you're trying to discuss or just screwing with people. But I'll throw in my two cents. IMO, the single reason why small ball is so much more prevalent is that the league has (unofficially) encouraged it by changing the way the game is called. That's not tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. They are selling a product, and the wide-open game produces a lot more highlight reel plays, gets higher ratings, and brings in more revenue.

The disappearance of travelling/carrying calls is pretty obvious. But the bigger thing that encourages small ball may be the contact that they allow off the ball, in and around the paint. A big man trying to get and hold position in and near the paint can be grabbed, shoved with both arms, and generally mugged. And that lets him be "guarded" by a much smaller player, and moves his average shot distance out several feet. The third thing is the ticky-tack fouls they hand out, and the fact that "continuation" no longer means that the player was going into a shooting motion when he was fouled. Now, if a guy gets fouled on the floor, but can throw the all in the direction of the basket within two steps, he gets shots.

Put that all together, and the points per possession for playing small are higher than for playing a traditional lineup and style. If the style gives you an advantage, you'd be a damn fool not to take advantage of it. The caveat to all of that is that if the league has a renaissance of exciting big men, and eventually it will, they pendulum will swing the other way again.

[sasaint]

Dennis, Scottie, Mike, Deng, and Pau. That was a good unit

:lol

[coachmac87]

It's not. What is endangered is the Spurs-style post-ups where the big is expected to get their own shot after catching the ball in a bad position. A post-up in transition or after a duck-in would still work, but the Spurs had no creativity in their sets this season. Pop totally dropped the ball with Aldridge, and LMA hasn't helped much either.


But they had to do that due to lack of elite PG play..

[rastaspur]

This was the ultimate "small ball" team that the Twinks are trying to emulate:

https://www.nbamaniacs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Chicago-Bulls-90.jpg

Note that no one there is particularly small and exploitable on defence.

Yep. Thats a versatile group right there.

Rodman would neuter draymond. I still think that bulls team would beat the warriors.

[Chinook]

But they had to do that due to lack of elite PG play..

You don't need a PG to run a set play. If anything, you want someone like Pau making the seal pass, not a PG. Getting a top PG would only further limit the number of sets the Spurs run.

[DAF86]

Don't believe going small is the way to go to beat the Warriors. It's going to take some out of the box thinking to beat this team but to try to beat them at their style will be suicide. Spurs were overwhelming them with their size up until Kawhi got hurt. My bold prediction is the team that beats the Warriors will beat them by playing a different style of basketball.

The Cavs beat them last season by going small, OKC (outside a stint where they wnet with Kanter and Adams together) had them 3-1 with Ibaka at center and Durant at PF.

[GSH]

Aldridge was fine as a PF, though I've wanted him at C for a year or more now. His issues is that he's not being assertive enough on O and not getting the ball where he should. If he were pounding inside and scoring, the fact that he's not a natural on the perimeter would be a lot less important.


You want Aldridge to be a traditional C, and that would be nice. But that means he'd have to wrestle for position and he's either unwilling or unable to do that. I can't figure out which, but he doesn't do it.

He's also terrible at passing out of a double team. More to the point, he doesn't recognize the double is coming nearly early enough, and by the time he figures it out it's too late, and the "right" pass is cut off. Tim used to be a master at baiting in the double team, and then kicking the ball out as soon as they commit. LMA might learn to play more aggressively (although I doubt it), but I don't think he's going to learn court vision and decision making at his age.

LMA is big enough to play the C. And if he was catching the ball in the paint and making a quick move, he could put up 25 a night doing it. Just don't hold your breath waiting for him to do that.

[SAGirl]

Heh. Yeah, that's sort of the point.

Look, I don't know if you're trying to discuss or just screwing with people. But I'll throw in my two cents. IMO, the single reason why small ball is so much more prevalent is that the league has (unofficially) encouraged it by changing the way the game is called. That's not tinfoil hat conspiracy theory. They are selling a product, and the wide-open game produces a lot more highlight reel plays, gets higher ratings, and brings in more revenue.

The disappearance of travelling/carrying calls is pretty obvious. But the bigger thing that encourages small ball may be the contact that they allow off the ball, in and around the paint. A big man trying to get and hold position in and near the paint can be grabbed, shoved with both arms, and generally mugged. And that lets him be "guarded" by a much smaller player, and moves his average shot distance out several feet. The third thing is the ticky-tack fouls they hand out, and the fact that "continuation" no longer means that the player was going into a shooting motion when he was fouled. Now, if a guy gets fouled on the floor, but can throw the all in the direction of the basket within two steps, he gets shots.

Put that all together, and the points per possession for playing small are higher than for playing a traditional lineup and style. If the style gives you an advantage, you'd be a damn fool not to take advantage of it. The caveat to all of that is that if the league has a renaissance of exciting big men, and eventually it will, they pendulum will swing the other way again.
Intelligent post. I completely agree which is why you can't zag while the league zigs. It's not playing the system but rather playing against it. Lamarcus also wasn't good enough to be the offensive epicenter.

[coachmac87]

You don't need a PG to run a set play. If anything, you want someone like Pau making the seal pass, not a PG. Getting a top PG would only further limit the number of sets the Spurs run.


There wasn't any creativity because the point guard play isn't elite..

[DAF86]

It's more arguable that Green was playing out of position as a wing. Not that this is a point to debate about, really. Being able to play SF doesn't take away from the fact that Dray can and does play PF against every four in the league and that he's excelled in that spot. He plays there because that's his position, not because the Warriors are trying to chess-match against their opponents. When he plays the five, then that's a different story.



Aldridge was fine as a PF, though I've wanted him at C for a year or more now. His issues is that he's not being assertive enough on O and not getting the ball where he should. If he were pounding inside and scoring, the fact that he's not a natural on the perimeter would be a lot less important.

Aldridge just isn't that kind of player, expecting him to suddenly start doing that at age 30 something just isn't smart. One just has to deal with the fact that he is a mid-range shooter. That was his game in Portland and that is his game here. You either accept that kind of style and game plan around it or you move on and trade him. I prefer the second option.

[SAGirl]

It's not. What is endangered is the Spurs-style post-ups where the big is expected to get their own shot after catching the ball in a bad position. A post-up in transition or after a duck-in would still work, but the Spurs had no creativity in their sets this season. Pop totally dropped the ball with Aldridge, and LMA hasn't helped much either.They had the entire season to figure things out, both player and coach, and they didn't. Aside from Kawhi it's uncertain Pop worked on improving LMA sets or plays called for him. He may just be past his prime and not good enough to play the way Pop wanted him to play.... or maybe he's lacking in the guts department. But all through the season Pop expressed disappointment with unnamed guys... (Lamarcus)...

[Chinook]

There wasn't any creativity because the point guard play isn't elite..

Elite PGs don't determine set plays; that's how the Spurs' bench was so great with guys like Mills and Neal at the one. The Clippers had apparently the best PG in the league, and their offense was even less creative than the relative shitshow Pop put out this year.

[DAF86]

Just a fad.


Pretty much this. The moment another Shaq or Duncan enters the league small ball is dead.

Not a fad at all when this style of play is being powered by the rule changes.

[daslicer]

The Cavs beat them last season by going small, OKC (outside a stint where they wnet with Kanter and Adams together) had them 3-1 with Ibaka at center and Durant at PF.

The Cavs win against them was fluky due to Draymond getting suspended and Bogut getting injured. OKC played small at times against them last year but they also went big with Kanter,Adams or a combo of those those two with Ibaka. This is not a team you can beat by going small full time. I'm convinced of that.

[Chinook]

They had the entire season to figure things out, both player and coach, and they didn't. Aside from Kawhi it's uncertain Pop worked on improving LMA sets or plays called for him. He may just be past his prime and not good enough to play the way Pop wanted him to play.... or maybe he's lacking in the guts department. But all through the season Pop expressed disappointment with unnamed guys... (Lamarcus)...

But that's Pop's fault. He picked the guys, and he made the offense. Trying to blame Aldridge when you kept calling no-movement, far-away post-ups makes him look foolish. I don't know how many times he kept going back to that pass to LMA or Leonard during games, but it was way, way too much. And he never used guys like Anderson and Pau in high post.

I don't think LMA can be excused for his inconsistent/terrible on-court style, but Pop didn't give his plan to take down the Warriors a chance. Totally feels like the worse year he's had coaching in a while.

[daslicer]

Not a fad at all when this style of play is being powered by the rule changes.

I disagree. It's successful mainly because there is no great dominant big like a Duncan or Shaq currently in the league. It will continue to work until the next great big comes out. At the rate things are going that could be while but we'll see.

[DAF86]

I disagree. It's successful mainly because there is no great dominant big like a Duncan or Shaq currently in the league. It will continue to work until the next great big comes out. At the rate things are going that could be while but we'll see.

With the old rules, bigs like Cousins, Davis, Porzingis, Embiid, Towns, etc. would be destroying the league.

Under these rules, a guy like Shaq wouldn't be anywhere near as dominant as he was during the no-zone, legal hand-checking era where he played.

[r0drig0lac]

Not a fad at all when this style of play is being powered by the rule changes.

agree

[daslicer]

With the old rules, bigs like Cousins, Davis, Porzingis, Embiid, Towns, etc. would be destroying the league.

Under these rules, a guy like Shaq wouldn't be anywhere near as dominant as he was during the no-zone, legal hand-checking era where he played.

Tim Duncan 2 years ago at the age of 39 was still able to play at an all-star level. At that point of time he relied heavily on post ups. I remember one game where he abused Draymond on multiple post ups and scored at will on him. I have a hard time believing Shaq would not have had the same type of success in this type of league.

The guys you have listed are all very young outside of Cousins. A few of them don't have the physical ability to post up such as Porzingis and Davis. Those 2 will never have the ability to play back to the basket. Demarcus can post up but is a basket case with a low basketball IQ which is a reason why he will never be a dominant player. Embiid has only played 30 some games in his career and is injury prone but prior to getting hurt he was showing great promise. Towns is only a second year player but he had dominant year. He averaged 25-12 on 55 percent shooting which is impressive. His team sucked at the start of the year but towards the end started winning games. He's young but will figure it out on how to win games.

[TheDoctor]

This was the ultimate "small ball" team that the Twinks are trying to emulate:

https://www.nbamaniacs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Chicago-Bulls-90.jpg

Note that no one there is particularly small and exploitable on defence.

Substitute Kukoc with Kawhi... Damn :wow

[SAGirl]

But that's Pop's fault. He picked the guys, and he made the offense. Trying to blame Aldridge when you kept calling no-movement, far-away post-ups makes him look foolish. I don't know how many times he kept going back to that pass to LMA or Leonard during games, but it was way, way too much. And he never used guys like Anderson and Pau in high post.

I don't think LMA can be excused for his inconsistent/terrible on-court style, but Pop didn't give his plan to take down the Warriors a chance. Totally feels like the worse year he's had coaching in a while.
I think Pop envisioned the duo of Pau and Lamarcus playing exactly as you say but the fact Pau could not play defense an he to be benched changed whatever he wanted to do. Dedmon is too limited and Lamarcus is the one who should have been playing out of the high post but he's such a mediocre or worse passer and offensive decision maker that not much can be channeled through him.

Pop underutilized Anderson, which is such an irony with him ending the season in a good note and Pops other favorites folding and giving up.

[DAF86]

Tim Duncan 2 years ago at the age of 39 was still able to play at an all-star level. At that point of time he relied heavily on post ups. I remember one game where he abused Draymond on multiple post ups and scored at will on him. I have a hard time believing Shaq would not have had the same type of success in this type of league.

When did that happen? Tim spent the last 5 years of his career playing off the pick and roll and finishing what others created for him. He would get his post up plays everynow and then out of respect, but those touches weren't more than 1 or 2 per quarter, at best.


The guys you have listed are all very young outside of Cousins. A few of them don't have the physical ability to post up such as Porzingis and Davis. Those 2 will never have the ability to play back to the basket. Demarcus can post up but is a basket case with a low basketball IQ which is a reason why he will never be a dominant player. Embiid has only played 30 some games in his career and is injury prone but prior to getting hurt he was showing great promise. Towns is only a second year player but he had dominant year. He averaged 25-12 on 55 percent shooting which is impressive. His team sucked at the start of the year but towards the end started winning games. He's young but will figure it out on how to win games.

Centers don't post up as much precisely because of the rules changes, posting up just isn't as useful as it used to be. I can assure you that if this was the 90's, all those guys would try to post up a lot more.

[Nathan89]

Your smallball wing doesn't have to be able to defend the post vs GSW though. They need rebounding and perimeter defense on that end. I'd love to play small vs GSW but you need a legit wing. LMA being unable to pnr and pass also screws the lineup.

[daslicer]

Centers don't post up as much precisely because of the rules changes, posting up just isn't as useful as it used to be. I can assure you that if this was the 90's, all those guys would try to post up a lot more.

I guess we can just agree to disagree. If according to you the only way to beat the Warriors is to beat them by playing their style then I can say the league is screwed for the next several years. Historically regardless of eras and rule changes I have never seen a champion dethroned by an opposing team playing the same style of play. Usually the Champs baring injuries gets taken out due to the opposing team playing a different style of basketball. To beat the Warriors by playing their style means the Spurs would have to be better than them at playing small ball. That's going to be very difficult to do.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Aldridge just isn't that kind of player, expecting him to suddenly start doing that at age 30 something just isn't smart. One just has to deal with the fact that he is a mid-range shooter. That was his game in Portland and that is his game here. You either accept that kind of style and game plan around it or you move on and trade him. I prefer the second option.

This is not strictly true though. His career FG% within 3 feet is higher than Duncan's. He's always been elite in this regard.

Aldridge is very big and strong, he can play very well as a traditional low post center, but he's been unwilling to play physically and has been out of shape, especially this season, so he couldn't get in position and had to get the ball closer to the 3 point line than the post. If he works out in the summer and grows some balls he'd be unstoppable at the rim. Easier said than done though, he doesn't have Kawhi's drive.

[tbdog]

Small ball ends as soon as umpires ref the paint the same as they do anywhere else on the court. That means any contact with your arms is a foul and off hand push off are allowed.

[Nathan89]

Small ball ends as soon as umpires ref the paint the same as they do anywhere else on the court. That means any contact with your arms is a foul and off hand push off are allowed.

:lol That shit isn't going to happen. I never thought of the push off part though which is a good point.

[Fireball]

You do not need small ball, but "skill ball" ... 5 men on the court who have skills, who are not 1-dimensional, who still have a good average length to be able to witch on defense ... a big man must be more like a Porzingis, CAT or at least Jokic ... they are skilled enough to stay on the court in today's NBA.

[tbdog]

:lol That shit isn't going to happen. I never thought of the push off part though which is a good point.

They need to bridge the gap. Currently the offensive player gets away with carries, travels, moving screens, push offs, plus they get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to fouls. All this while the defender can't touch them. In the meantime, big men defenders can push and hold, while hacking away. If the offensive players shows some strength and power, the defender just flops.

If the NBA just enforced; moving screens, carries, and push offs, while inside enforce two hands on the offensive player is automatically a foul and penalise flops, then things will turn around.

[John B]

Pretty much this. The moment another Shaq or Duncan enters the league small ball is dead.

Kawhi and Cousins, small ball is dead.

[DAF86]

This is not strictly true though. His career FG% within 3 feet is higher than Duncan's. He's always been elite in this regard.

On how many attemtps per game? What's his layup to mid range attempt ratio? Parker shot 40% from three some seasons but just taking less than one per game, tbh.


Aldridge is very big and strong, he can play very well as a traditional low post center, but he's been unwilling to play physically and has been out of shape, especially this season, so he couldn't get in position and had to get the ball closer to the 3 point line than the post. If he works out in the summer and grows some balls he'd be unstoppable at the rim. Easier said than done though, he doesn't have Kawhi's drive.

Well, that's the whole point. Aldridge might have the physical atributes to play a more efficiente game, but he doesn't. He never did and he never will.

[Atl Spur]

There will always be a place for posting up in basketball. It helps control tempo, creating mismatches to defend, and allows for easier scoring.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

On how many attemtps per game? What's his layup to mid range attempt ratio? Parker shot 40% from three some seasons but just taking less than one per game, tbh.


.242 % of his FGAs have been within 3 feet, compared to .309 for Duncan, so less, but not a small sample size at all - it is comparable to Marc Gasol's %.

[DAF86]

.242 % of his FGAs have been within 3 feet, compared to .309 for Duncan, so less, but not a small sample size at all - it is comparable to Marc Gasol's %.

Marc Gasol, another player whose fan base criticizes for being soft and letting defenders off the hook. With the difference that Marc is a better shooter and an infinite better passer.

[DAF86]

There will always be a place for posting up in basketball. It helps control tempo, creating mismatches to defend, and allows for easier scoring.

Actually, metrics indicate that post ups are among the least efficient plays on basketball right now.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Marc Gasol, another player whose fan base criticizes for being soft and letting defenders off the hook. With the difference that Marc is a better shooter and an infinite better passer.

In numbers :
Tim Duncan : 4.51 FGAs per game from within 3 feet of the rim.
LMA : 3.85

So 0.66 FGAs less per game for Aldridge.

[Chinook]

In numbers :
Tim Duncan : 4.51 FGAs per game from within 3 feet of the rim.
LMA : 3.85

So 0.66 FGAs less per game for Aldridge.

Pretty sure DAF isn't going to accept that LMA is a good inside scorer no matter what you do. I don't disagree with him that it's very likely LMA never really changes his game to take advantage of his inside skills, but it's by far the team's best chance to improve. Dude needs to channel is inner Z-Bo.

[DAF86]

In numbers :
Tim Duncan : 4.51 FGAs per game from within 3 feet of the rim.
LMA : 3.85

So 0.66 FGAs less per game for Aldridge.

Then you will have to add the difference in shots from 3 feet to 6 feet, and from 6 to 9, and so on. I'm pretty sure Duncan will average more shots in the closer ranges and Aldridge would lead on the others. And that way you will get the significant difference that makes Tim Duncan a top 5/7 player of all time, and Aldridge... well, Aldridge.

That also doesn't take into account the double teams commanded from getting closer to the basket.

[DAF86]

Pretty sure DAF isn't going to accept that LMA is a good inside scorer no matter what you do. I don't disagree with him that it's very likely LMA never really changes his game to take advantage of his inside skills, but it's by far the team's best chance to improve. Dude needs to channel is inner Z-Bo.

Oh, I fully agree that LA is a good inside scorer when he gets position. The thing is that he doesn't get there enough, and he never will.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Pretty sure DAF isn't going to accept that LMA is a good inside scorer no matter what you do. I don't disagree with him that it's very likely LMA never really changes his game to take advantage of his inside skills, but it's by far the team's best chance to improve. Dude needs to channel is inner Z-Bo.

Absolutely. Aldridge is a beast inside scorer when he's bothered. He's rarely been bothered this season, unfortunately. But he's very capable of it - last season he shot .733 at the rim, which is better than any prime Tim Duncan season. It's incredible they can't find a way to utilize this strength of his consistently.

[Chinook]

That also doesn't take into account the double teams commanded from getting closer to the basket.

This is really the key. The Spurs aren't getting quick-hit inside looks, and the result is that almost every post-up takes a long time to develop. Having an elite guard would give LMA more dish opportunities, as coachmac87 said. But Pop also didn't help matters by calling nothing but bad post-ups for LMA (and Kawhi) for long stretches. Finally, LMA needs to be more assertive in sealing his man whenever he's near the rim. That's something Randolph does extremely well, and it doesn't take tremendous physical prowess to pull off. Tim was great at it.

[coachmac87]

Spurs need shot creators..going small won't make things better unless you've got an elite PG or other players who can create for themselves or others...

GSW is just a unique team and trying to match them going small is what they want you to do...TD21 hit the nail on the head you need a combination of size/skill...(Diaw type)

The key is to attack GSW weakness IMO which is rebounding and the paint and being able to switch on defense

[SAGirl]

They need to bridge the gap. Currently the offensive player gets away with carries, travels, moving screens, push offs, plus they get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to fouls. All this while the defender can't touch them. In the meantime, big men defenders can push and hold, while hacking away. If the offensive players shows some strength and power, the defender just flops.

If the NBA just enforced; moving screens, carries, and push offs, while inside enforce two hands on the offensive player is automatically a foul and penalise flops, then things will turn around.
Agreed with this observation.

[SAGirl]

Then you will have to add the difference in shots from 3 feet to 6 feet, and from 6 to 9, and so on. I'm pretty sure Duncan will average more shots in the closer ranges and Aldridge would lead on the others. And that way you will get the significant difference that makes Tim Duncan a top 5/7 player of all time, and Aldridge... well, Aldridge.

That also doesn't take into account the double teams commanded from getting closer to the basket.
And that Tim was the much better passer so not all his moves ended in a shot for himself...

[SAGirl]

This is really the key. The Spurs aren't getting quick-hit inside looks, and the result is that almost every post-up takes a long time to develop. Having an elite guard would give LMA more dish opportunities, as coachmac87 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=4835) said. But Pop also didn't help matters by calling nothing but bad post-ups for LMA (and Kawhi) for long stretches. Finally, LMA needs to be more assertive in sealing his man whenever he's near the rim. That's something Randolph does extremely well, and it doesn't take tremendous physical prowess to pull off. Tim was great at it.
Also Mills and other guards were entering the ball in the pst through lobs so far away from where he was standing after having grabbed position that Lamarcus had to get out of his way to get the ball near the 3 pt line. Quite frankly not enough is being said about this bc of Mills fandoms.

Lamarcus would have to get out of his position to grab a ball all the way out close to the 3 pt line at which point he did his routine whereby he would get stripped. Part of the reason he didn't get the ball in good spots was the poor guard play. Again Patty is not starting level guard for an elite team.

Also I feel like Pop wasted Kyle by not taking enough advantage of his passing skill. Ah whatever thinking about it makes me angry with Pop. Lol