Have you realized just how awful Simmons numbers are?

[DAF86]

I knew he was bad by my eye test but last night, arguing with another poster about Simmons, I got to look at his stats and it surprised me to see that his numbers are even worse than I imagined. Last season in 78 games he averaged:

6.2 ppg - 1.6 apg - 1.0 topg - 1.9 rpg - 42 FG% - 29 3P% - 50 TS% - 9.9 PER - -2.8 OPM - 0.9 DPM - -1.9 PM - 0.0 VORP

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02.html

Is this the guy some of you are desperate to bring back? Is this the guy worth 10 million per year? Sorry sons but fuck that shit, tbh.

[Dex]

I knew he was bad by my eye test but last night, arguing with another poster about Simmons, I got to look at his stats and it surprised me to see that his numbers are even worse than I imagined. Last season in 78 games he averaged:

6.2 ppg - 1.6 apg - 1.0 topg - 1.9 rpg - 42 FG% - 29 3P% - 9.9 PER - -2.8 OPM - 0.9 DPM - -1.9 PM - 0.0 VORP

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02.html

Is this the guy some of you are desperately to bring back? Is this the guy worth 10 million per year? Sorry sons but fuck that shit, tbh.

I think a lot of people just have recency bias and got enamored with his playoff run and games when Kawhi was out.

He did show a lot of heart and played considerably better in the playoffs with the main unit, but a lot of people can put up better numbers when they know they have the green light. There is no guarantee that role is even going to be available for him if he come back here...especially if Manu returns.

I'm all for bringing him back at the right price and seeing if he can continue to add onto last year, but I won't be too beat up about it if he goes elsewhere. He is probably one of the most easily replaceable spots on the roster.

[$pursDynasty]

ditto what Dex said, however seeing that Juice was probably our third best Spur playoff performer behind the injured MVParker and KingSlayer and the fact that he brings one thing to the Spurs which they desperately lack...athleticism. So at the right price I want Jon back. All the rest of the team besides those 3 were such disappointments in the playoffs that I would hate to lose one of the 3 rare bright spots on the roster, we need more of those not less.

[DAF86]

ditto what Dex said, however seeing that Juice was probably our third best Spur playoff performer behind the injured MVParker and KingSlayer and the fact that he brings one thing to the Spurs which they desperately lack...athleticism. So at the right price I want Jon back. All the rest of the team besides those 3 were such disappointments in the playoffs that I would hate to lose one of the 3 rare bright spots on the roster, we need more of those not less.

Even in the playoffs he wasn't anything to write home about:

10.5 ppg - 1.9 apg - 0.7 topg - 1.9 rpg - 45 FG% - 35 3P% - 52 TS% - 15 PER - 0.4 OPM - -0.8 DPM - -0.4 PM - 0.1 VORP

So, even at his best Simmons is a mediocre player that isn't even a net positive. Folks need to seriously stop overreacting about a couple of games, tbh.

[Texas_Ranger]

I'll be fine if we give him 2Y 10M... If someone wants to throw some crazy money at him, you can have him.

[Chinook]

Simmons wasn't that good on either end. But he tried. Back in the olden days, SA could keep him for like $11M/3 and get an eighth man. Hell, that's what they gave Green in 2012. But a lot of folks think he's shown a lot more than he has. It's a damned shame that they couldn't make a deal for Hanga.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I'm glad someone is pointing this out. He might evolve into a decent rotation player but his ceiling is pretty low.

Basically the Spurs are Kawhi Leonard, a power forward who can't show up for big games, another over-the-hill power forward, yet another over-the-hill (injured) power forward, an over-the-hill point guard, an over-the-hill shooting guard, and a bunch of end of the bench role players.

[SAGirl]

That was while also getting opportunities to pad stats in garbage time too...

I wanted the Spurs to get some better talent but since they decided to bring the band back, I like him back for sure but not at an expensive rate. Sure there are a few fanboys that will cite Pops rotations for vexing him but he was averaging 20 minutes per game after a hot start to the season in a very well entrenched role when his minutes started waning bc he was plain old sucking for months, as a bench player mind you.

Yes he got hot in the postseason and had a few good games and deserves a payday IMO. But I don't know how much and should it be too high I think Spurs pass on it. Might even be the reason such a long run is being given to Bryn Forbes in summer league. His defense is probably going to be missed but not his scoring.

Still the market is drying up for him and there's a chance he is back in the team in a short term deal if he still wants to pursue a better contract next season.

[Russ]

I knew he was bad by my eye test but last night, arguing with another poster about Simmons, I got to look at his stats and it surprised me to see that his numbers are even worse than I imagined. Last season in 78 games he averaged:

6.2 ppg - 1.6 apg - 1.0 topg - 1.9 rpg - 42 FG% - 29 3P% - 50 TS% - 9.9 PER - -2.8 OPM - 0.9 DPM - -1.9 PM - 0.0 VORP

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02.html

Is this the guy some of you are desperate to bring back? Is this the guy worth 10 million per year? Sorry sons but fuck that shit, tbh.

Simmons shows up big in big games. The season opener against the champs. The playoffs (against the champs).

He likes the bright lights, a bit like Horry (but a different skillset, of course).

The Spurs don't need guys for the regular season -- they'll be fine. They need players who match up with Golden State and Simmons does that.

[Horse]

I knew he was bad by my eye test but last night, arguing with another poster about Simmons, I got to look at his stats and it surprised me to see that his numbers are even worse than I imagined. Last season in 78 games he averaged:

6.2 ppg - 1.6 apg - 1.0 topg - 1.9 rpg - 42 FG% - 29 3P% - 50 TS% - 9.9 PER - -2.8 OPM - 0.9 DPM - -1.9 PM - 0.0 VORP

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02.html

Is this the guy some of you are desperate to bring back? Is this the guy worth 10 million per year? Sorry sons but fuck that shit, tbh.


Come playoff time he's not a fucking pussy like LA that's good enough for me. One of the few we have that can penetrate.

[$pursDynasty]

I get that some say they were unimpressed on his work as a whole but I am still stating that he made the effort in the playoffs which I can't say for many Spurs besides Kiwi, TP, and Manu.....So that being said I would rather keep him at a reasonable price and cut/renounce/trade some of the ones that didn't bother to show up. A lot is made of the Spur's culture and to me that means showing up in the playoffs under pressure. There aren't many players in the entire league I trust to do that so if Jon has shown the potential to be one, I say keep him, there are about 10 other players on the roster that didn't so if keeping him costs us one of those...so be it.

[SAGirl]

ditto what Dex said, however seeing that Juice was probably our third best Spur playoff performer behind the injured MVParker and KingSlayer and the fact that he brings one thing to the Spurs which they desperately lack...athleticism. So at the right price I want Jon back. All the rest of the team besides those 3 were such disappointments in the playoffs that I would hate to lose one of the 3 rare bright spots on the roster, we need more of those not less.
Obvious slight to Anderson... but carry on...

[DAF86]

I'll be fine if we give him 2Y 10M... If someone wants to throw some crazy money at him, you can have him.

That's the absolute max I would pay for him. And I'm doubting it. It's really hard for me to believe the Spurs can't find another athletic wing which is both younger and has a higher celing. Simmons is what he is at this point, he won't get much better. I would rather get a 20 year old, with a chance of actually improving, to play the role of athletic 4th or 5th wing off the bench.

[itzsoweezee]

Even in the playoffs he wasn't anything to write home about:

10.5 ppg - 1.9 apg - 0.7 topg - 1.9 rpg - 45 FG% - 35 3P% - 52 TS% - 15 PER - 0.4 OPM - -0.8 DPM - -0.4 PM - 0.1 VORP

So, even at his best Simmons is a mediocre player that isn't even a net positive. Folks need to seriously stop overreacting about a couple of games, tbh.
Those are pretty good numbers. That's about right for $10 million per year. No one's expecting him to be a superstar.

[spurs10]

Post AllStar break was really bad for Dedmon too.

[$pursDynasty]

Obvious slight to Anderson... but carry on...
no offense meant when I started my comment I was thinking who showed up in the playoffs besides Kiwi (obvious) and Tony (pleasant surprise) and all I could recall was Pop postgame talking about how Jon (because he doesn't call him Simmons) was a lone bright spot post Kiwi injury. Then I added Manu because even if he isn't on his game he is always trying (sometimes too hard). I don't remember Pop saying much about Mr. Anderson's play in any of the postgame interviews (or anyone else besides the three I mentioned.

[8FOR!3]

That's the absolute max I would pay for him. And I'm doubting it. It's really hard for me to believe the Spurs can't find another athletic wing which is both younger and has a higher celing. Simmons is what he is at this point, he won't get much better. I would rather get a 20 year old, with a chance of actually improving, to play the role of athletic 4th or 5th wing off the bench.

Do you know any 20 year old athletic wings who are legitimate NBA players (AKA capable of playing as the 5th wing without looking way out of their comfort zone) who are available and have a higher ceiling than Simmons at a reasonable deal? I can't think of one.

[DAF86]

Simmons shows up big in big games. The season opener against the champs. The playoffs (against the champs).

He likes the bright lights, a bit like Horry (but a different skillset, of course).

The Spurs don't need guys for the regular season -- they'll be fine. They need players who match up with Golden State and Simmons does that.


Come playoff time he's not a fucking pussy like LA that's good enough for me. One of the few we have that can penetrate.


Even in the playoffs he wasn't anything to write home about:

10.5 ppg - 1.9 apg - 0.7 topg - 1.9 rpg - 45 FG% - 35 3P% - 52 TS% - 15 PER - 0.4 OPM - -0.8 DPM - -0.4 PM - 0.1 VORP

So, even at his best Simmons is a mediocre player that isn't even a net positive. Folks need to seriously stop overreacting about a couple of games, tbh.

Simmon's "not fucking pussy in the playoffs-step up in big games" best is still pretty bad, tbh.

[DAF86]

Do you know any 20 year old athletic wings who are legitimate NBA players (AKA capable of playing as the 5th wing without looking way out of their comfort zone) who are available and have a higher ceiling than Simmons at a reasonable deal? I can't think of one.

No, but I didn't know Simmons existed either a couple of years ago. There must surely be some D-leaguer out there who's worth taking a flyer on before paying a known mediocre player like Simmons 10 millions a year.

[DAF86]

Those are pretty good numbers. That's about right for $10 million per year. No one's expecting him to be a superstar.

I pretend my 10 million per year guy to at least not be a net negative while on the court, tbh. You know how everyone shits on Danny Green? well, he's still more than 2 full points better than Simmons, and he's getting paid 10 millions per year. That's the least you can hope for from a 10 millions per year guy.

[mookie2001]

Who else is gonna sacrifice their body to get to the line? Not Green, Manu or Mills. San Antonio is a Simmons dependent team now, blame those three.

[DAF86]

Who else is gonna sacrifice their body to get to the line? Not Green, Manu or Mills. San Antonio is a Simmons dependent team now, blame those three.

:lmao

[SAGirl]

Post AllStar break was really bad for Dedmon too.
And he just got 7 million per year in a 2 year deal with a player option from one of the few teams still with cap space and a huge need for a center. Roberson who is a starter got 10 million. He's not getting that much.

Spurs just gave the 6th man contract to Mills.

5 mill per year sounds fair for Simmons in this market. Last offseason he could have gotten a lot more. Right now, it's tougher and him being ball dominant makes it difficult to fit even for bad teams who would rather develop their youngsters. Evans went for 3 million per season...

[cd98]

I'm glad someone is pointing this out. He might evolve into a decent rotation player but his ceiling is pretty low.

Basically the Spurs are Kawhi Leonard, a power forward who can't show up for big games, another over-the-hill power forward, yet another over-the-hill (injured) power forward, an over-the-hill point guard, an over-the-hill shooting guard, and a bunch of end of the bench role players.

Plus at 28, he doesn't have much time in his prime and he's in his prime. Anderson, by comparison, is still years from his prime and has time to improve.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

The Spurs will likely get him back for a decent price.

[hater]

He shows up in the playoffs

He will get paid here or elsewhere

[raybies]

something to consider. During the season he played primarily off ball.Look at his usage from the season to the playoffs. It increased by like 5% and he performed a lot better. He needs the ball in his hands more.

Per 36 Minutes



Season
Age
Tm
Lg
Pos
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
2P
2PA
2P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


2015-16 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2016/)
26
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016.html)
SG
55
2
813
5.4
10.7
.504
0.8
2.1
.383
4.6
8.6
.533
3.1
4.1
.750
0.7
3.5
4.3
2.6
1.1
0.2
2.3
4.6
14.7


2016-17 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2017/)
27
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html)
SG
78
8
1392
4.6
10.9
.420
0.8
2.6
.294
3.8
8.2
.461
2.6
3.4
.750
0.5
3.6
4.1
3.3
1.2
0.6
2.0
3.8
12.5


Career


NBA

133
10
2205
4.9
10.8
.451
0.8
2.4
.322
4.1
8.4
.488
2.7
3.7
.750
0.6
3.6
4.2
3.0
1.2
0.5
2.1
4.1
13.3





Playoffs Per 36 Minutes



Season
Age
Tm
Lg
Pos
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
2P
2PA
2P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


2015-16 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2016/)
26
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016.html)
SG
3
0
26
5.5
13.8
.400
2.8
4.2
.667
2.8
9.7
.286
1.4
2.8
.500
4.2
1.4
5.5
2.8
2.8
0.0
1.4
5.5
15.2


2016-17 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2017/)
27
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html)
SG
15
4
306
7.3
16.0
.456
1.5
4.4
.351
5.8
11.6
.495
2.5
3.6
.677
1.1
2.2
3.3
3.4
1.1
0.2
1.3
3.5
18.6


Career


NBA

18
4
332
7.2
15.8
.452
1.6
4.3
.375
5.5
11.5
.481
2.4
3.6
.667
1.3
2.2
3.5
3.4
1.2
0.2
1.3
3.7
18.3





Notice how his 3% went up in the playoffs. That is huge considering the increased pressure. Imo the more involvement is equaled to the more engaged he was. But, the 18 ppg per 36 is good cause the games he actually played minutes he did put that up so it's not empty. With increased minutes and workload he could be a fringe elite role player in my estimation. Also his turnover rate actually went down with more usage. :wow

I'm sorry but Danny made 10 per on a bargain contract. Simmons projects as a better all around player and to take the role as 6th man ala Ginobili. That's why they want him back. He plays really well against the team to beat and with more usage he becomes something else. If we can get him for the same price as danny it would be a bargain. Danny can't do anything to create his own shot. He can barely dribble and though Simmons really isn't much of a facilitator, he does well penetrating the defense off a pick and can finish near the rim. I really hope his price is going down though. Would love to have him for cheaper.

[Pocho La Pantera]

Who else is gonna sacrifice their body to get to the line? Not Green, Manu or Mills. San Antonio is a Simmons dependent team now, blame those three. not sure if serious.

[spursmvp]

What's all this hate on simmons. He showed up against the dubs when no one else except manu did. That alone is worth the money.

[SAGirl]

something to consider. During the season he played primarily off ball.Look at his usage from the season to the playoffs. It increased by like 5% and he performed a lot better. He needs the ball in his hands more.

Per 36 Minutes



Season
Age
Tm
Lg
Pos
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
2P
2PA
2P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


2015-16 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2016/)
26
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016.html)
SG
55
2
813
5.4
10.7
.504
0.8
2.1
.383
4.6
8.6
.533
3.1
4.1
.750
0.7
3.5
4.3
2.6
1.1
0.2
2.3
4.6
14.7


2016-17 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2017/)
27
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html)
SG
78
8
1392
4.6
10.9
.420
0.8
2.6
.294
3.8
8.2
.461
2.6
3.4
.750
0.5
3.6
4.1
3.3
1.2
0.6
2.0
3.8
12.5


Career


NBA

133
10
2205
4.9
10.8
.451
0.8
2.4
.322
4.1
8.4
.488
2.7
3.7
.750
0.6
3.6
4.2
3.0
1.2
0.5
2.1
4.1
13.3





Playoffs Per 36 Minutes



Season
Age
Tm
Lg
Pos
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
2P
2PA
2P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


2015-16 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2016/)
26
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016.html)
SG
3
0
26
5.5
13.8
.400
2.8
4.2
.667
2.8
9.7
.286
1.4
2.8
.500
4.2
1.4
5.5
2.8
2.8
0.0
1.4
5.5
15.2


2016-17 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2017/)
27
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html)
SG
15
4
306
7.3
16.0
.456
1.5
4.4
.351
5.8
11.6
.495
2.5
3.6
.677
1.1
2.2
3.3
3.4
1.1
0.2
1.3
3.5
18.6


Career


NBA

18
4
332
7.2
15.8
.452
1.6
4.3
.375
5.5
11.5
.481
2.4
3.6
.667
1.3
2.2
3.5
3.4
1.2
0.2
1.3
3.7
18.3





Notice how his 3% went up in the playoffs. That is huge considering the increased pressure. Imo the more involvement is equaled to the more engaged he was. But, the 18 ppg per 36 is good cause the games he actually played minutes he did put that up so it's not empty. With increased minutes and workload he could be a fringe elite role player in my estimation. Also his turnover rate actually went down with more usage. :wow

I'm sorry but Danny made 10 per on a bargain contract. Simmons projects as a better all around player and to take the role as 6th man ala Ginobili. That's why they want him back. He plays really well against the team to beat and with more usage he becomes something else. If we can get him for the same price as danny it would be a bargain. Danny can't do anything to create his own shot. He can barely dribble and though Simmons really isn't much of a facilitator, he does well penetrating the defense off a pick and can finish near the rim. I really hope his price is going down though. Would love to have him for cheaper.
If he was going to be a sixth man why did the Spurs give one of the better 6th man type contracts to Mills? I don't see it. I think he has a hot streak at the right time but it's doubtful that can be replicated bc he was pretty bad all year... Some guys have parlayed a few good playoff games into a big contract and then never are able to replicate that on the regular. Not saying don't bring him back, but not enough consistency to justify a bigger deal. The games he was that ball dominant the Spurs lost against GS showers anyways. His defense was also overrated in that series bc Dijon and Anderson were more disruptive, came up with more rebounds, steals and deflections, plus minus also favors them even with Dijon's abysmal shooting. He had one good game that everyone else shot poorly in. So did Anderson basically... Again not saying don't bring him back but a big deal will straight jacket the team. I wouldn't have paid Mills 12 mill either tbh. But 12:01...

[DAF86]

something to consider. During the season he played primarily off ball.Look at his usage from the season to the playoffs. It increased by like 5% and he performed a lot better. He needs the ball in his hands more.

Per 36 Minutes



Season
Age
Tm
Lg
Pos
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
2P
2PA
2P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


2015-16 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2016/)
26
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016.html)
SG
55
2
813
5.4
10.7
.504
0.8
2.1
.383
4.6
8.6
.533
3.1
4.1
.750
0.7
3.5
4.3
2.6
1.1
0.2
2.3
4.6
14.7


2016-17 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2017/)
27
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html)
SG
78
8
1392
4.6
10.9
.420
0.8
2.6
.294
3.8
8.2
.461
2.6
3.4
.750
0.5
3.6
4.1
3.3
1.2
0.6
2.0
3.8
12.5


Career


NBA

133
10
2205
4.9
10.8
.451
0.8
2.4
.322
4.1
8.4
.488
2.7
3.7
.750
0.6
3.6
4.2
3.0
1.2
0.5
2.1
4.1
13.3





Playoffs Per 36 Minutes



Season
Age
Tm
Lg
Pos
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
2P
2PA
2P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


2015-16 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2016/)
26
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016.html)
SG
3
0
26
5.5
13.8
.400
2.8
4.2
.667
2.8
9.7
.286
1.4
2.8
.500
4.2
1.4
5.5
2.8
2.8
0.0
1.4
5.5
15.2


2016-17 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2017/)
27
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html)
SG
15
4
306
7.3
16.0
.456
1.5
4.4
.351
5.8
11.6
.495
2.5
3.6
.677
1.1
2.2
3.3
3.4
1.1
0.2
1.3
3.5
18.6


Career


NBA

18
4
332
7.2
15.8
.452
1.6
4.3
.375
5.5
11.5
.481
2.4
3.6
.667
1.3
2.2
3.5
3.4
1.2
0.2
1.3
3.7
18.3





Notice how his 3% went up in the playoffs. That is huge considering the increased pressure. Imo the more involvement is equaled to the more engaged he was. But, the 18 ppg per 36 is good cause the games he actually played minutes he did put that up so it's not empty. With increased minutes and workload he could be a fringe elite role player in my estimation. Also his turnover rate actually went down with more usage. :wow

I'm sorry but Danny made 10 per on a bargain contract. Simmons projects as a better all around player and to take the role as 6th man ala Ginobili. That's why they want him back. He plays really well against the team to beat and with more usage he becomes something else. If we can get him for the same price as danny it would be a bargain. Danny can't do anything to create his own shot. He can barely dribble and though Simmons really isn't much of a facilitator, he does well penetrating the defense off a pick and can finish near the rim. I really hope his price is going down though. Would love to have him for cheaper.

Nobody with a deep basketball understanding is expecting that, tbh.

What you are missing in all that reasoning is that Simmons, for all the good he supposedly did during the playoffs, was still a net negative player. So, even at his best, he wasn't able to play winning basketball. You know why that is? Because he sucks. He sucks big time.

[itzsoweezee]

I pretend my 10 million per year guy to at least not be a net negative while on the court, tbh. You know how everyone shits on Danny Green? well, he's still more than 2 full points better than Simmons, and he's getting paid 10 millions per year. That's the least you can hope for from a 10 millions per year guy.

Danny Green's salary is based off of the old salary cap. Welcome to 2017.

[DAF86]

Danny Green's salary is based off of the old salary cap. Welcome to 2017.

Based on the old salary cap and the old Danny Green's production. Given Danny's current production he's probably worth 10 millions per year on this new salary cap. Simmons isn't even worth half of that with the old or new salary cap.

[raybies]

Nobody with a deep basketball understanding is expecting that, tbh.

What you are missing in all that reasoning is that Simmons, for all the good he supposedly did during the playoffs, was still a net negative player. So, even at his best he wasn't able to play winning basketball. You know why that is? Because he sucks. He sucks big time.
How can you be a net positive player playing the best team in basketball beating you by 20 points each time. C'mon man. What he accomplished against that defense was remarkable, especially considering he was the only one that could break it down. They were forcing him to shoot the midrange and he was hitting that too.

[raybies]

Based on the old salary cap and the old Danny Green's production. Given Danny's current production he's probably worth 10 millions per year on this new salary cap. Simmons isn't even worth half of that with the old or new salary cap.
Are you high?

[ernest787]

SAgirl calling out "fanboys" of players, while still getting upset if someone mentions the playoffs and doesn't say anything about fathead :rollin:lmao:lol

And somehow posters still take her seriously

[raybies]

If he was going to be a sixth man why did the Spurs give one of the better 6th man type contracts to Mills? I don't see it. I think he has a hot streak at the right time but it's doubtful that can be replicated bc he was pretty bad all year... Some guys have parlayed a few good playoff games into a big contract and then never are able to replicate that on the regular. Not saying don't bring him back, but not enough consistency to justify a bigger deal. The games he was that ball dominant the Spurs lost against GS showers anyways. His defense was also overrated in that series bc Dijon and Anderson were more disruptive, came up with more rebounds, steals and deflections, plus minus also favors them even with Dijon's abysmal shooting. He had one good game that everyone else shot poorly in. So did Anderson basically... Again not saying don't bring him back but a big deal will straight jacket the team. I wouldn't have paid Mills 12 mill either tbh. But 12:01...
Mills is a loyalty contract. And because he could start for the team and he'll definitely be closing. But it's definitely not a 6th man contract. That would be more, a lot more. He made three per last contract so they gave him a raise they thought he deserved. Simmons at his age and experience is more likely 6th man potential and because his first two years are capped at 8.5 mill you can afford to give Patty that cause you'd be getting a deal on Simmons theoretically.

[Ice009]

I knew he was bad by my eye test but last night, arguing with another poster about Simmons, I got to look at his stats and it surprised me to see that his numbers are even worse than I imagined. Last season in 78 games he averaged:

6.2 ppg - 1.6 apg - 1.0 topg - 1.9 rpg - 42 FG% - 29 3P% - 50 TS% - 9.9 PER - -2.8 OPM - 0.9 DPM - -1.9 PM - 0.0 VORP

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02.html

Is this the guy some of you are desperate to bring back? Is this the guy worth 10 million per year? Sorry sons but fuck that shit, tbh.

Look, I don't want to overpay him and sign him for too long. I think he still needs to build upon what he showed in the playoffs and be more consistent to really earn that big paycheck, but you are also a bit of a hater of his.

[MaNu4Tres]

The most I'd offer Simmons is 3 yr 27 mil dollar deal w/ a team option for 3rd yr.

People are just looking at stats, Simmons was a better than average perimeter defender.

Him being able to defend well on the perimeter is probably the most underrated aspect of his game that no one talks about. He can defend three positions well, maybe 4 when teams go small (this is invaluable in todays NBA).

In order to beat HOU and GS Spurs will need more versatile perimeter defenders than Kawhi and Danny. Spurs need 3-4 good to great perimeter defenders if they want a real shot at the best teams in the league and SImmons gives them a third guy. I'm hoping Gay is the 4th if his health and work ethic hold up.

[DAF86]

How can you be a net positive player playing the best team in basketball beating you by 20 points each time. C'mon man. What he accomplished against that defense was remarkable, especially considering he was the only one that could break it down. They were forcing him to shoot the midrange and he was hitting that too.

When I say "net negative/positive" I'm talking about "Box Plus/minus" (a box score estimate of the points per 100 possessions a player contributed above a league-average player, translated to an average team). Manu and Green were able to be positives (not only that, above 2 pts positives) on this stat despite playing without Kawhi and vs the all-mighty Warriors. Simmons didn't post positive numbers in this stat in the playoffs, where he supposedly played so great. He didn't post positive numbers on this stat in the regular season either. He didn't post positive numbers on this stat the previous season either. You know why that is? Because he is a below average player. A below average player that tricks casual fans with his dunks and blocks and effort, but a below average player nontheless.

[Hoops Czar]

Simmons is a scub but using DPM and PM to discredit someone is bush league stat analysis.

[DAF86]

Simmons is a scub but using DPM and PM to discredit someone is bush league stat analysis.

I'm using all the stats available, tbh.

[DAF86]

The most I'd offer Simmons is 3 yr 27 mil dollar deal w/ a team option for 3rd yr.

People are just looking at stats, Simmons was a better than average perimeter defender.

Him being able to defend well on the perimeter is probably the most underrated aspect of his game that no one talks about. He can defend three positions well, maybe 4 when teams go small (this is invaluable in todays NBA).

In order to beat HOU and GS Spurs will need more versatile perimeter defenders than Kawhi and Danny. Spurs need 3-4 good to great perimeter defenders if they want a real shot at the best teams in the league and SImmons gives them a third guy. I'm hoping Gay is the 4th if his health and work ethic hold up.

I agree, that still isn't worth 9 millions per year on a three year contract.

[MaNu4Tres]

Some fans are still stuck in 1990. They have absolutely zero understanding of defensive versatility on the perimeter and how valuable that is in 2017.

[DAF86]

Are you high?

No, I just use more than an emotional ":cry but he stepped up in the playoffs :cry" reasoning when analyzing a player's worth.

[raybies]

The most I'd offer Simmons is 3 yr 27 mil dollar deal w/ a team option for 3rd yr.

People are just looking at stats, Simmons was a better than average perimeter defender.

Him being able to defend well on the perimeter is probably the most underrated aspect of his game that no one talks about. He can defend three positions well, maybe 4 when teams go small (this is invaluable in todays NBA).

In order to beat HOU and GS Spurs will need more versatile perimeter defenders than Kawhi and Danny. Spurs need 3-4 good to great perimeter defenders if they want a real shot at the best teams in the league and SImmons gives them a third guy. I'm hoping Gay is the 4th if his health and work ethic hold up.
He's also another player that you can't hide a bad defender on like you can with Danny...

two way player tbh those are hard to find

[Chinook]

Simmons' best attribute is that he could defend Draymond better than Danny can. His actual defense against guys his size isn't anything to write home about.

[DAF86]

Some fans are still stuck in 1990. They have absolutely zero understanding of defensive versatility on the perimeter and how valuable that is in 2017.

Some fans are still stuck in 1990. They have absolutely zero understanding of how much of liabilities untalented players that need the ball in their hands are in 2017.

[SAGirl]

Mills is a loyalty contract. And because he could start for the team and he'll definitely be closing. But it's definitely not a 6th man contract. That would be more, a lot more. He made three per last contract so they gave him a raise they thought he deserved. Simmons at his age and experience is more likely 6th man potential and because his first two years are capped at 8.5 mill you can afford to give Patty that cause you'd be getting a deal on Simmons theoretically.
I think you want to pay him for potential and he's 28. You also want to pay him as if he already wa what you think he can be. The point was that him being that ball dominant = Simmons at his best = didn't translate to wins. Didn't play well when he started games either.

If he had been that guy that you think he can be the entire season that's different but in reality you are projecting a lot based on a few good games.

[raybies]

Simmons is a scub but using DPM and PM to discredit someone is bush league stat analysis.
when he said Danny was a net positive and Simmons wasn't i figured the stat was bogus.

[SAGirl]

Simmons' best attribute is that he could defend Draymond better than Danny can. His actual defense against guys his size isn't anything to write home about.
I definitely want him back but how can you pay him more than Mills for example. Spurs can't. I am starting to feel like even 9 mill per season might be too much for him considering how the market for wings is tanking... but if he gets that I wouldn't hate it. I wouldn't want the Spurs to match on any poison pill contract though.

[mookie2001]

Simmons is a better player than Green, Mills and Manu. That's why we're counting on him, our guards suck and nobody can get to the free throw line in crunch time but Simmons and Kawhi

[FkLA]

something to consider. During the season he played primarily off ball.Look at his usage from the season to the playoffs. It increased by like 5% and he performed a lot better. He needs the ball in his hands more.

Per 36 Minutes



Season
Age
Tm
Lg
Pos
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
2P
2PA
2P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


2015-16 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2016/)
26
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016.html)
SG
55
2
813
5.4
10.7
.504
0.8
2.1
.383
4.6
8.6
.533
3.1
4.1
.750
0.7
3.5
4.3
2.6
1.1
0.2
2.3
4.6
14.7


2016-17 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2017/)
27
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html)
SG
78
8
1392
4.6
10.9
.420
0.8
2.6
.294
3.8
8.2
.461
2.6
3.4
.750
0.5
3.6
4.1
3.3
1.2
0.6
2.0
3.8
12.5


Career


NBA

133
10
2205
4.9
10.8
.451
0.8
2.4
.322
4.1
8.4
.488
2.7
3.7
.750
0.6
3.6
4.2
3.0
1.2
0.5
2.1
4.1
13.3





Playoffs Per 36 Minutes



Season
Age
Tm
Lg
Pos
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
2P
2PA
2P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


2015-16 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2016/)
26
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2016.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016.html)
SG
3
0
26
5.5
13.8
.400
2.8
4.2
.667
2.8
9.7
.286
1.4
2.8
.500
4.2
1.4
5.5
2.8
2.8
0.0
1.4
5.5
15.2


2016-17 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/gamelog/2017/)
27
SAS (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2017.html)
NBA (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2017.html)
SG
15
4
306
7.3
16.0
.456
1.5
4.4
.351
5.8
11.6
.495
2.5
3.6
.677
1.1
2.2
3.3
3.4
1.1
0.2
1.3
3.5
18.6


Career


NBA

18
4
332
7.2
15.8
.452
1.6
4.3
.375
5.5
11.5
.481
2.4
3.6
.667
1.3
2.2
3.5
3.4
1.2
0.2
1.3
3.7
18.3





Notice how his 3% went up in the playoffs. That is huge considering the increased pressure. Imo the more involvement is equaled to the more engaged he was. But, the 18 ppg per 36 is good cause the games he actually played minutes he did put that up so it's not empty. With increased minutes and workload he could be a fringe elite role player in my estimation. Also his turnover rate actually went down with more usage. :wow

I'm sorry but Danny made 10 per on a bargain contract. Simmons projects as a better all around player and to take the role as 6th man ala Ginobili. That's why they want him back. He plays really well against the team to beat and with more usage he becomes something else. If we can get him for the same price as danny it would be a bargain. Danny can't do anything to create his own shot. He can barely dribble and though Simmons really isn't much of a facilitator, he does well penetrating the defense off a pick and can finish near the rim. I really hope his price is going down though. Would love to have him for cheaper.

This. Juice is a playmaker. Hes at his best when he has the ball in his hands. He practically ran point in Austin and Summer League. Ideally, he'd be the heir apparent to Manu in the second unit, tbh.

[Chinook]

Simmons is a better player than Green, Mills and Manu. That's why we're counting on him, our guards suck and nobody can get to the free throw line in crunch time but Simmons and Kawhi

:lol Simmons sucks compared to all of those guys. Every one of them has had a six-game stretch that shits all over his inefficient stretch.

[MaNu4Tres]

The same idiots applauding the Mills signing for 4/50 are the same idiots who don't want to pay Simmons.

One guy can't defend anyone when it matters, but can spread the floor and hit shots 1 out of every 3 games-- can't create or get to the line. The other can defend 3-4 positions well when it matters, shoots the 3 at a modest 30-35%, can take it off the dribble and get to the line.

[DAF86]

when he said Danny was a net positive and Simmons wasn't i figured the stat was bogus.

Sure, go with your eye test instead. :lol

Look son, there's a reason nobody has shown interest in Simmons yet. NBA Gm's are smart enough to don't let themselves fool for a couple of highlight plays. They actually analyze stats and tapes, over a long period of time, to see if a guy is worth it.

[FkLA]

Simmons' best attribute is that he could defend Draymond better than Danny can. His actual defense against guys his size isn't anything to write home about.

He was awesome on Harden. Better than Kawhi even at times, imo.

[mookie2001]

You gonna trust those guys in the fourth quarter? Or to go out and score double figures on a consistent basis? Nope

[DAF86]

The same idiots applauding the Mills signing for 4/50 are the same idiots who don't want to pay Simmons.

One guy can't defend anyone when it matters, but can spread the floor and hit shots 1 out of every 3 games-- can't create or get to the line. The other can defend 3-4 positions well when it matters, shoots the 3 at a modest 30-35%, can take it off the dribble and get to the line.

I don't know who you are talking about since I'm not an idiot but if by any chance you were referring to me, let me tell you that I wasn't fine with the Patty signing, tbh.

[Chinook]

He was awesome on Harden. Better than Kawhi even at times, imo.

Harden was just terrible on his own after the Spurs got the refs to stop calling the bullshit fouls. Anderson falling apart also limited Harden's effectiveness.

[MaNu4Tres]

He was awesome on Harden. Better than Kawhi even at times, imo.

Agree 100%. He has quicker foot-speed than Kawhi and Danny. Danny's foot speed regressed last year and had a harder time than usual staying in-front of his man.

Simmons can defend 1-3's really well. Not sure what games Chinook is watching.

[raybies]

I think you want to pay him for potential and he's 28. You also want to pay him as if he already wa what you think he can be. The point was that him being that ball dominant = Simmons at his best = didn't translate to wins. Didn't play well when he started games either.

If he had been that guy that you think he can be the entire season that's different but in reality you are projecting a lot based on a few good games.
well there's a reason his games didn't translate to wins and anybody short of Kawhi Leonard or Lebron James probably would of faired the same. But as a supplementary scorer for the bench or closing games he'd be an upgrade over Danny or Manu who are the other options. Danny shooting is inconsistent... Just fact checked but Simmons shot better from three in the playoffs than our designated 3 point shooter :lol And Manu will be 40. We just don't have better options. And with Danny, the other team can hide a poor defender on him, with Simms you can't. Factor all this in and it really is a no brainer. Don't understand ya'll...

[mookie2001]

/Props to raybies for watching those games on his TV

[RodNIc91]

I'm glad someone is pointing this out. He might evolve into a decent rotation player but his ceiling is pretty low.

Basically the Spurs are Kawhi Leonard, a power forward who can't show up for big games, another over-the-hill power forward, yet another over-the-hill (injured) power forward, an over-the-hill point guard, an over-the-hill shooting guard, and a bunch of end of the bench role players.

Truth bomb :depressed

Hopefully, like Blackjack said, they have an '03 type of run in them.

[look_at_g_shred]

Agree 100%. He has quicker foot-speed than Kawhi and Danny. Danny's foot speed regressed last year and had a harder time than usual staying in-front of his man.

Simmons can defend 1-3's really well. Not sure what games Chinook is watching.
Anyone with half a brain can see that Simmons guarded Harden solid. Didn't he shut down a potential Harden game winner during the reg season too?

[SAGirl]

The most I'd offer Simmons is 3 yr 27 mil dollar deal w/ a team option for 3rd yr.

People are just looking at stats, Simmons was a better than average perimeter defender.

Him being able to defend well on the perimeter is probably the most underrated aspect of his game that no one talks about. He can defend three positions well, maybe 4 when teams go small (this is invaluable in todays NBA).

In order to beat HOU and GS Spurs will need more versatile perimeter defenders than Kawhi and Danny. Spurs need 3-4 good to great perimeter defenders if they want a real shot at the best teams in the league and SImmons gives them a third guy. I'm hoping Gay is the 4th if his health and work ethic hold up.
From my understanding of what has been released by the media, the offer you mention is what the Spurs offered at 12:01 and he turned down. I am unsure at this point how much his camp expects but considering he turned it down and decided to test the market, he wants more..

[sasaint]

I like Simmons, and I want him back. I don't know what his numbers from the 15-16 season were like, but he seems to have made some significant improvement year over year - especially in terms of consistency. I think it is likely that he will continue to improve and gain more consistency. He is a pretty solid defender, and he committed fewer fouls last season than the previous one. I would be willing to pay him up to $9MM on a 3 year deal in a heartbeat - with a team option for year 3. His ceiling may not be much higher than what we have seen, but that is worth a small gamble. C'mon back, Jon.

[DAF86]

Folks need to realize that, even at his best, Simmons still had a below average impact. Let's say that with a bigger role he improves as much as folks think he could improve (I don't know why people are expecting that kind of improvement from a 28 year old but let's just pretend for the sake of the argument that that is the case). He improves and what? finally becomes an average level player? a slightly above average player? Sorry, but in neither of those scenarios is he worth 10 millions per year, tbh.

[sasaint]

From my understanding of what has been released by the media, the offer you mention is what the Spurs offered at 12:01 and he turned down. I am unsure at this point how much his camp expects but considering he turned it down and decided to test the market, he wants more..

Turning down our offer and getting a better one are two different things. I expect him back, and I hope Manu is gone to clear the way for Jon, Forbes and our other young guys.

[Hoops Czar]

well there's a reason his games didn't translate to wins and anybody short of Kawhi Leonard or Lebron James probably would of faired the same. But as a supplementary scorer for the bench or closing games he'd be an upgrade over Danny or Manu who are the other options. Danny shooting is inconsistent... Just fact checked but Simmons shot better from three in the playoffs than our designated 3 point shooter :lol And Manu will be 40. We just don't have better options. And with Danny, the other team can hide a poor defender on him, with Simms you can't. Factor all this in and it really is a no brainer. Don't understand ya'll...

You say all this but then give no reasonable explanation as to why he was benched for most of the last two regular seasons and the latter one being in a contract year. There's no telling what version of Simmons the Spurs will be getting for 9M but one hallmark trait of a career DLeague player is lack of consistency and that description fits Simmons to a tee.

[DAF86]

I like Simmons, and I want him back. I don't know what his numbers from the 15-16 season were like, but he seems to have made some significant improvement year over year - especially in terms of consistency. I think it is likely that he will continue to improve and gain more consistency. He is a pretty solid defender, and he committed fewer fouls last season than the previous one. I would be willing to pay him up to $9MM on a 3 year deal in a heartbeat - with a team option for year 3. His ceiling may not be much higher than what we have seen, but that is worth a small gamble. C'mon back, Jon.

His numbers actually declined last season compared to the previous one.

[SAGirl]

I don't know who you are talking about since I'm not an idiot but if by any chance you were referring to me, let me tell you that I wasn't fine with the Patty's signing, tbh.
I don't know who Manu4tres is talking about there either. I wasn't in favor of a 12:01 either. Guys were getting on me bc of my incessant whining about it. I figured Mills is going to be around for 4 years so I better get off the ledge and move on. Only one who defended Mills was dabom, maybe a few trolls and Chinook who found ways to justify the FO. Not many were in favor of 12:01 :lol not even the casuals. It's looked worse and worse in hindsight but even when it immediately happened I didn't like it. Heck I though Mills was gone.

[Hoops Czar]

From my understanding of what has been released by the media, the offer you mention is what the Spurs offered at 12:01 and he turned down. I am unsure at this point how much his camp expects but considering he turned it down and decided to test the market, he wants more..
Simmons probably wanted a player option instead of team option in his third year. Don't blame him, tbh. He'll never touch this kind of money again so It's best he gets as much guaranteed as he possibly can.

[SAGirl]

Simmons probably wanted a player option instead of team option in his third year. Don't blame him, tbh. He'll never touch this kind of money again so It's best he gets as much guaranteed as he possibly can.
I agree with that. He's going to milk that series for all he can. Deserves a payday too of some kind.

[look_at_g_shred]

Simmons is best playing off the ball on offense. He's fine on D. Regardless of what some here think. He needs to start at the 2. I've long been a Green supporter even if he isn't the most popular on this board. As it says above my AVI, he's not appreciated. Having said that, I think its what's best for the SL.

[raybies]

You say all this but then give no reasonable explanation as to why he was benched for most of the last two regular seasons and the latter one being in a contract year. There's no telling what version of Simmons the Spurs will be getting for 9M but one hallmark trait of a career DLeague player is lack of consistency and that description fits Simmons to a tee.
well the simple and most logical answer is that he doesn't know how to play off the ball to make a long story short. To parrot what I believe FkLa said and it's true but he's played a role in Summer League and the D League, which was the same role he played when Kawhi went down and he produced. It's reasonable to assume that with more responsibility to run the pick and roll and initiate some offense that he can do what he's been doing. Sure Summer League and D League is different levels of comp but he was doing it against the Warriors in the playoffs when there was no better defense left at the time.

Then you look at Manu who is 40 and anyone else on the roster, who can play that role? No one is ready. Simmons earned an opportunity for increased role with his performance and experience which is how players typically move up in Pop's system. He's ready now. We don't have the money to find a suitable replacement.

[DAF86]

Simmons is best playing off the ball on offense. He's fine on D. Regardless of what some here think. He needs to start at the 2. I've long been a Green supporter even if he isn't the most popular on this board. As it says above my AVI, he's not appreciated. Having said that, I think its what's best for the SL.


well the simple and most logical answer is that he doesn't know how to play off the ball to make a long story short. To parrot what I believe FkLa said and it's true but he's played a role in Summer League and the D League, which was the same role he played when Kawhi went down and he produced. It's reasonable to assume that with more responsibility to run the pick and roll and initiate some offense that he can do what he's been doing. Sure Summer League and D League is different levels of comp but he was doing it against the Warriors in the playoffs when there was no better defense left at the time.

Then you look at Manu who is 40 and anyone else on the roster, who can play that role? No one is ready. Simmons earned an opportunity for increased role with his performance and experience which is how players typically move up in Pop's system. He's ready now. We don't have the money to find a suitable replacement.

Even Simmons supporters can't get on the same page. :lol

[look_at_g_shred]

Even Simmons supporters can't get on the same page. :lol

I admit that is funny :lol But I call it how I see it.

[SAGirl]

well there's a reason his games didn't translate to wins and anybody short of Kawhi Leonard or Lebron James probably would of faired the same. But as a supplementary scorer for the bench or closing games he'd be an upgrade over Danny or Manu who are the other options. Danny shooting is inconsistent... Just fact checked but Simmons shot better from three in the playoffs than our designated 3 point shooter :lol And Manu will be 40. We just don't have better options. And with Danny, the other team can hide a poor defender on him, with Simms you can't. Factor all this in and it really is a no brainer. Don't understand ya'll...
I have been a big Manu critic but he's underrated here. If he retires, he will be missed. If he doesn't retire but has to be benched bc he gets injured or is finally washed up and reached the end Kobe Bryant inefficient style he will be misssd. Simmons wasn't on his level even at 39-40. Manu spotted him 5 games of 0%shooting and still came out ahead in the playoffs if I remember correctly. For all his bad gambles, Manu is still disruptive. Spurs post-Manu likely to be much different and not rely on a single player as they used to rely on him. When Manu retires and you get to watch the substitutes you will realize he was a HOF player for a reason. Same as not even Pau (another HOF player mind you) couldn't replicate Timmy.


Simmons is going to have to play the system like everyone else. Unfortunately Dijon looks not good right now so there are concerns for sure. I'd like him back, never said I didn't but Spurs adding Rudy Gay was surely a move to not be this dependent on JSimms and him playing hardball with wanting more than Spurs project him to be worth.

[DAF86]

I shouldn't even get into this one because folks are going to think I have ulterior motives for the Simmons' bashing :lol but...

Manu > Simmons

Manu at the min for one year >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simmons for 9/10 mil a year for three seasons.

[look_at_g_shred]

I shouldn't even get into this one because folks are going to think I have ulterior motives for the Simmons' bashing :lol but...

Manu > Simmons

Manu at the min for one year >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simmons for 9/10 mil a year for three seasons.
It's more likely to be 3.5 mil per for 3 years.

[SAGirl]

I shouldn't even get into this one because folks are going to think I have ulterior motives for the Simmons' bashing :lol but...

Manu > Simmons

Manu at the min for one year >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simmons for 9/10 mil a year for three seasons.
If Manu is back, I don't think it will be for the minimum.... we shall see.

[DAF86]

It's more likely to be 3.5 mil per for 3 years.

I wouldn't have a problem with that, tbh.

[raybies]

...

https://media.giphy.com/media/FgzLRqhrvHsJO/giphy.gif

[apalisoc_9]

Simmons is atrocious as an offball defensive player, but he's shown the ability to move pretty well against Elite Perimeter scorers. When you have Kawhi and Danny as help defenders, it's worth having him on the court.

[SAGirl]

...

https://media.giphy.com/media/FgzLRqhrvHsJO/giphy.gif
Sorry friend but I like you.
:tu
Humor is the best.

[SAGirl]

Simmons is atrocious as an offball defensive player, but he's shown the ability to move pretty well against Elite Perimeter scorers. When you have Kawhi and Danny as help defenders, it's worth having him on the court.
How much are you willing to pay for that? That's basically the thread...

[TheGreatYacht]

:lol Better numbers than Ginobili
:lol Ginobili fans feel a threat

[apalisoc_9]

:lol Better numbers than Ginobili
:lol Ginobili fans feel a threat

The poster above you sees him a threat too..:lol

[TheGreatYacht]

Agree 100%. He has quicker foot-speed than Kawhi and Danny. Danny's foot speed regressed last year and had a harder time than usual staying in-front of his man.

Simmons can defend 1-3's really well. Not sure what games Chinook is watching.
Chinook has always hated Simmons. Then as a Fathead fan, and now as a Green fan.

[TheGreatYacht]

The poster above you sees him a threat too..:lol
SAGirl has always hated Simmons. She would've cut him last training camp for Lapro, Forbes, and Garino. Swear to god :lol found the posts

Feel bad for Simmons, tbh. Nothing he does will convince Fathead and Manu fans that he's good

[TheGreatYacht]

Simmons is at his absolute best when he's not sharing the floor with Ginobili, and that's a fact. Same problem Joseph had since they're both better with the ball than without.

When gin"0points"bili was making an appearance in the playoffs, Pop decided to let Simmons be the 6th man and Juice thrived. Then he got inserted in the starting lineup and again thrived.

It's understandable why an Argie made this thread. #1, he wants his boy back and getting paid over JSimms. #2, the rise of Simmons might finally keep his idol on the bench for good.

[DeRozan m8]

Maybe if pop stopped dog housing him he could develop properly

[mookie2001]

Simmons is at his absolute best when he's not sharing the floor with Ginobili, and that's a fact. Same problem Joseph had since they're both better with the ball than without.

When gin"0points"bili was making an appearance in the playoffs, Pop decided to let Simmons be the 6th man and Juice thrived. Then he got inserted in the starting lineup and again thrived.

It's understandable why an Argie made this thread. #1, he wants his boy back and getting paid over JSimms. #2, the rise of Simmons might finally keep his idol on the bench for good. true indeed

[SAGirl]

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2017/07/notable-remaining-nba-free-agents-by-position.html?fv-home=true&post-id=69427
As if this moment, rated one of the best SG left in the open market... FWIW
885004116178731012

[DAF86]

:lol Better numbers than Ginobili
:lol Ginobili fans feel a threat

If only he had better numbers than Manu. Folks wanna throw 30 million dollars at a guy that can't outplay a 40 year old. :lol

[mookie2001]

Manu is often the consensus worst player in the NBA. Watching him in crunch time is like a faces of death flick

[Spurs9]

:lmao

:lol

[TimDunkem]

If only he had better numbers than Manu. Folks wanna throw 30 million dollars at a guy that can't outplay a 40 year old. :lol
Tbh, sounds like Fatty Mills who needs said 40 year old to run the offense for him. Unfortunately, he got 50 million. :lol

[TD 21]

His play in the playoffs probably was overrated, but I don't care. The league is now about finding as many two-way mid sized players as possible. He's clearly not afraid of the moment and looks like a possible 6th-8th man and 3rd wing. It's well worth it to give him the type of contract MaNu4Tres suggested and see if he can become that. They need to do everything in their power to increase their upside.



Simmons' best attribute is that he could defend Draymond better than Danny can. His actual defense against guys his size isn't anything to write home about.

Even if that were true, it's irrelevant. He can physically guard his position. It's not about having a bunch of lockdown defenders (it's almost impossible to play defense in this league now anyway), it's about having as few liabilities as possible.

[MannyIsGod]

Simmon's "not fucking pussy in the playoffs-step up in big games" best is still pretty bad, tbh.

Those numbers are "pretty bad"? Really?

[DAF86]

Simmons is at his absolute best when he's not sharing the floor with Ginobili, and that's a fact. Same problem Joseph had since they're both better with the ball than without.

When gin"0points"bili was making an appearance in the playoffs, Pop decided to let Simmons be the 6th man and Juice thrived. Then he got inserted in the starting lineup and again thrived.

It's understandable why an Argie made this thread. #1, he wants his boy back and getting paid over JSimms. #2, the rise of Simmons might finally keep his idol on the bench for good.

Simmons isn't a threat to Manu. :lol

First of all because Manu is still a better player than Simmoms but also because if Manu comes back is because he knows he's going to play.

In fact, what will probably happen is that both, Manu and Simmons, sign with the Spurs and both see rotation minutes as the two wings off the bench, tbh.

My dislike of Simmons has nothing to do with Manu and everything to do with his lack of game. I'm not totally against signing Simmons since the other free agency options at wing suck as much as him, but I am, however, against signing him for more than 5 millions per year, since we can sign guys who are as bad as him for much less than that, tbh.

[DAF86]

Those numbers are "pretty bad"? Really?

Yeah, when the best ball you have played in your career isn't good enough to at least reach league average level impact, you aren't very good, tbh.

[DAF86]

Tbh, sounds like Fatty Mills who needs said 40 year old to run the offense for him. Unfortunately, he got 50 million. :lol

Yeah well, another shitty contract, tbh.

[MannyIsGod]

I shouldn't even get into this one because folks are going to think I have ulterior motives for the Simmons' bashing :lol but...

Manu > Simmons

Manu at the min for one year >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simmons for 9/10 mil a year for three seasons.


......

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, when the best ball you have played in your career isn't good enough to at least reach league average level impact, you aren't very good, tbh.

The best you've played in your career against possibly the best team in decades and one of the best ever with no one else on your team to help you out. Context. And that wasn't the best, those are averages. You're using stats in a really dishonest way and then trying to be all "its the stats not my Manu love!" I hope both come back but you're "analysis" here is at best a troll and at worst a really shitty job of using stats. A good deal of Simmon's contract is giong to be based on potential, not past performance. If you can't see that then I don't know what to tell you.

[DAF86]

His play in the playoffs probably was overrated, but I don't care. The league is now about finding as many two-way mid sized players as possible. He's clearly not afraid of the moment and looks like a possible 6th-8th man and 3rd wing. It's well worth it to give him the type of contract MaNu4Tres suggested and see if he can become that. They need to do everything in their power to increase their upside.




Even if that were true, it's irrelevant. He can physically guard his position. It's not about having a bunch of lockdown defenders (it's almost impossible to play defense in this league now anyway), it's about having as few liabilities as possible.

What folks don't realize is that Simmons is an offensive liabilty. He can't shoot and his "playmaking habilities" give the Spurs as many assists as turnovers.

[MannyIsGod]

I honestly don't get why people are all up in arms over contracts (and potential contracts ) that are extremely movable in trades. None of the contracts the Spurs have had this offseason nor any that Simmons might get are going to be in any way a hinderance to them in order to free space in the future because they'll all be easy to move. Anyone bitching over these contracts needs to look around the league at actual bad contracts before doing so.

[MannyIsGod]

What folks don't realize is that Simmons is an offensive liabilty. He can't shoot and his "playmaking habilities" give the Spurs as many assists as turnovers.


The playoff stats you posted were a nearly 3:1 Assist to TO ratio. Want to try again?

[tonight...you]

I honestly don't get why people are all up in arms over contracts (and potential contracts ) that are extremely movable in trades. None of the contracts the Spurs have had this offseason nor any that Simmons might get are going to be in any way a hinderance to them in order to free space in the future because they'll all be easy to move. Anyone bitching over these contracts needs to look around the league at actual bad contracts before doing so.
Good post.

[Blake]

Manny sighting :lol

How you been

[DAF86]

The best you've played in your career against possibly the best team in decades and one of the best ever with no one else on your team to help you out. Context. And that wasn't the best, those are averages. You're using stats in a really dishonest way and then trying to be all "its the stats not my Manu love!" I hope both come back but you're "analysis" here is at best a troll and at worst a really shitty job of using stats. A good deal of Simmon's contract is giong to be based on potential, not past performance. If you can't see that then I don't know what to tell you.

"Context" :lol

Son, under the exact same circumstances Manu and Green (just to name the other SG's of the team) posted much better numbers. What's the excuse there?

I'm done trying to explain this to guys that go exclusively by their subjective eye test and don't even bother trying to complement that with the analysis of stats that have proven year after year to be great tools when looking at the contribution of a particular player.

[DAF86]

I honestly don't get why people are all up in arms over contracts (and potential contracts ) that are extremely movable in trades. None of the contracts the Spurs have had this offseason nor any that Simmons might get are going to be in any way a hinderance to them in order to free space in the future because they'll all be easy to move. Anyone bitching over these contracts needs to look around the league at actual bad contracts before doing so.

I doubt Simmons for 10 millions per year for three seasons would be as easy to move as you think, tbh. And those 10 millions you will have committed to Simmons for the next offseason could make the difference between getting, or not getting, a good player in the next offseason.

[MannyIsGod]

"Context" :lol

Son, under the exact same circumstances Manu and Green (just to name the other SG's of the team) posted much better numbers. What's the excuse there?

I'm done trying to explain this to guys that go exclusively by their subjective eye test and don't even bother trying to complement that with the analysis of stats that have proven year after year to be great tools when looking at the contribution of a particular player.

https://i.imgur.com/zaStqkc.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

Simmons shot better than both, from 2 and from 3. Got to the line more. Was a bit worse on the boards. Pretty close to A:T as Manu which is allegedly his best aspect now. Handily outscored both. So yeah, stats.

[MannyIsGod]

"much better numbers"

[MannyIsGod]

Ill give you this, Manu kicks his ass in the is from Argentina category.

[DAF86]

https://i.imgur.com/zaStqkc.jpg

Yeah, so? I'm talking about stats that actually show how much a guy contributes to his team actually winning games, tbh.

[MannyIsGod]

Also a 3 year deal for Simmons at 10 per with the 3rd being a team option would be easy as fuck to move. But he's not going to get 10 million per so I'm not sure why we're starting the discussion there.

[SAGirl]

Also a 3 year deal for Simmons at 10 per with the 3rd being a team option would be easy as fuck to move. But he's not going to get 10 million per so I'm not sure why we're starting the discussion there.
What do you think he gets?
Spurs could offer I think close to 9 million due to CBA rules. Others are better at that than I am but have seen that everywhere (it may be an approximation). Anyways to pry him away while he's restricted the offer has to be for significantly more, just a slight uptick is nothing to pause over.

He may may not get pried away IMO. The market has dried out... we should know in a couple of days is my guess.

[TD 21]

What folks don't realize is that Simmons is an offensive liabilty. He can't shoot and his "playmaking habilities" give the Spurs as many assists as turnovers.

I clearly meant defensively.

[bic50]

But his dunks tho

[dabom]

I'd pay simmons 20-30 mil/3 year deal.

[dabom]

Why is it the same god awful people arguing against common sense? :lol

[DAF86]

Simmons shot better than both, from 2 and from 3. Got to the line more. Was a bit worse on the boards. Pretty close to A:T as Manu which is allegedly his best aspect now. Handily outscored both. So yeah, stats.

Yet Manu and Green posted above 2 pts of BPM and Simmons was a negative 0.4. If with all those raw stats being in favour of Simmoms he still managed to be more than 2 pts below the other SGs in the team and finish below the league average, you have to realize that there's something about his game that just doesn't translate to winning basketball, tbh. To me it's pretty clear to see what because I don't let myself get easily fooled by dunks and blocks and a mean face, but for those who do get easily fooled by those things they should try to pay a little more attention to these kind of advanced stats, imvho.

[DAF86]

Ill give you this, Manu kicks his ass in the is from Argentina category.

I knew folks were going to go this route. :lol

Dude, Manu has nothing to do with this. Do you seriously think that if Manu comes back it will be to ride the doghouse? Of course not. I'm not worried about Manu. I'm worried about the Spurs overcomitting to a guy that isn't very good and could cost us in a future off-season. That is all, tbh.

[DAF86]

I clearly meant defensively.

Yeah well, offensive liabilties are as bad, if not worst, than defensive liabilities in today's NBA, tbh.

[TheGreatYacht]

Simmons at 8.5M/yr is an absolute steal :lol anyone arguing otherwise is clueless or is a fanboy of someone he'll take minutes from

[MannyIsGod]

I knew folks were going to go this route. :lol

Dude, Manu has nothing to do with this. Do you seriously think that if Manu comes back it will be to ride the doghouse? Of course not. I'm not worried about Manu. I'm worried about the Spurs overcomitting to a guy that isn't very good and could cost us in a future off-season. That is all, tbh.


You yourself brought Manu into the argument. As I said, I'd like them both back. LOL @ Manu for the min tho. I'll believev that when I see it.

[rastaspur]

It has been rumored they offered him 9 million a year I think. Would prefer an offer of 6 to 8 million a year.
Not sure how many years.

If he can't fetch more from someone else than 9 million a year, a 3 year 27 mil with a team option for year 3 is not a bad deal imo

At 7 million a year I would call that a good deal in today's current nba landscape.

[SAGirl]

You yourself brought Manu into the argument. As I said, I'd like them both back. LOL @ Manu for the min tho. I'll believev that when I see it.
I don't think that either fwiw...

[DAF86]

Simmons at 8.5M/yr is an absolute steal :lol anyone arguing otherwise is clueless or is a fanboy of someone he'll take minutes from

If both guys sign with the Spurs, I will be rooting for Simmons to get more minutes and protagonism than Manu, because it would mean that he finally outplayed Manu and the Spurs could reach another gear. The Spurs aren't going anywhere if 40 yo Manu still has to be the 6th man of the team, tbh. Unfortunately, I don't think Simmons is capable of that.

[mookie2001]

Yeah who is Simmons trying to fool with those dunks and blocks lol

[Hoops Czar]

Simmons shot better than both, from 2 and from 3. Got to the line more. Was a bit worse on the boards. Pretty close to A:T as Manu which is allegedly his best aspect now. Handily outscored both. So yeah, stats.

Danny Green was bad per par but let's not say Simmons was necessarily better than Ginobili.

Manu Ginobili
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01/on-off/2017

The Spurs were a better defensive team with Ginobili on the court and he didn't make the offense worse.

Jonathon Simmons
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02/on-off/2017

The Spurs were a worst defensive team with Simmons on the court and even worse offensively by a substantial margin but yeah, he got his number.

[DAF86]

You yourself brought Manu into the argument. As I said, I'd like them both back. LOL @ Manu for the min tho. I'll believev that when I see it.

No, I didn't. The only reason I memtioned Manu is because folks were already talking about him, the same with Danny. But wait, Danny isn't Argentinian so it doesn't fit the idea of what you think are my motives for making this thread.

[TD 21]

Yeah well, offensive liabilties are as bad, if not worst, than defensive liabilities in today's NBA, tbh.

Playoffs are a small sample size, but also the most important portion. If what he did in them is sustainable, he won't be an offensive liability. As a non superstar, it comes down to context though and for him the ideal context is primarily on ball, with shooters surrounding him.

You can talk about the 2 erratic regular seasons that preceded that, but despite his relatively advanced age, those were his first 2 NBA seasons.

[DAF86]

I don't think that either fwiw...

I don't give a fuck how much Manu makes for a year as long as he doesn't cost the Spur any possible good signing.

[MannyIsGod]

If both guys sign with the Spurs, I will be rooting for Simmons to get more minutes and protagonism than Manu, because it would mean that he finally outplayed Manu and the Spurs could reach another gear. The Spurs aren't going anywhere if 40 yo Manu still has to be the 6th man of the team, tbh. Unfortunately, I don't think Simmons is capable of that.

I mean the first part of your post is obvious. We'll see about the last part.

[ducks]

are they worse then trumps? but then he wiped the floor with her ass

[tonight...you]

are they worse then trumps? but then he wiped the floor with her ass
You keep giving Thread life baby. Play into his game...

[DAF86]

You keep giving Thread life baby. Play into his game...

Are you implying this is a troll thread? :lol

I made this thread and gave facts and an honest opinion. 5 pages later the thread is composed 99% of posts arguing one way or another but staying on topic and keeping it civil (for ST standards). I don't know how can anyone see this as a troll thread.

[r0drig0lac]

What's all this hate on simmons. He showed up against the dubs when no one else except manu did. That alone is worth the money.

spurstalk

[phxspurfan]

The Spurs don't need guys for the regular season -- they'll be fine. They need players who match up with Golden State and Simmons does that.

I think that's an important factor to consider. The league is rapidly devolving into a few super teams and a bunch of super crappy teams we can win against either way. So to really be a contender we need favorable (or at least neutral) matchups against the best teams like GS and CLE. That means young, athletic wings.

Screw what he does against the bucks on a Tuesday night in February.

[tonight...you]

Are you implying this is a troll thread? :lol

I made this thread and gave facts and an honest opinion. 5 pages later the thread is composed 99% of posts arguing one way or another but staying on topic and keeping it civil (for ST standards). I don't know how can anyone see this as a troll thread.
No bud, ducks was quoting Thread.

[SAGirl]

I don't give a fuck how much Manu makes for a year as long as he doesn't cost the Spur any possible good signing.
He's not going to cost the Spurs anything since the Spurs already sort of made up their minds and can't add anyone of signficance. Reupping their own guys is all they can do. I never even brought up that old argument... but I suppose you are defensive bc undoubtedly someone else will bring it up. For a one season contract that Spurs stood pat it doesn't matter.

In a two year deal Simmons probably is a good deal too... I think the holdup is he wants more years ... which is risky. As you said, he hasn't been very good in general and it's a risky proposition the longer that deal is. Ppl are "projecting" what they think he can become based on the eye test, and he's already pretty much as good as he's going to be. I'd argue he can be more consistent and that by itself will allow him to be better, but even that is assuming and assuming with a positive eye test. Imagine if we were talking about assuming someone can shoot well bc he shot well for 6 games, but poorly for another 79 games.

Anyways, I think you have some valid points. A 2 year contract is not too risky and he could be good value if such consistency to his better games is reached. Longer than that, risk starts to get thwarted against Simms favor which is why I doubt they do match on a poison pill contract. It's just really unlikely he gets that at this point.

[JR3]

I only care about playoff stats... especially with Aldridge disappearing in the playoffs...

[DAF86]

He's not going to cost the Spurs anything since the Spurs already sort of made up their minds and can't add anyone of signficance. Reupping their own guys is all they can do. I never even brought up that old argument... but I suppose you are defensive bc undoubtedly someone else will bring it up. or a one season contract that Spurs stood pat it doesn't matter.

In a two year deal Simmons probably is a good deal too... I think the holdup is he wants more years ... which is risky. As you said, he hasn't been very good in general and it's a risky proposition the longer that deal is. Ppl are "projecting" what they think he can become based on the eye test, and he's already pretty much as good as he's going to be. I'd argue he can be more consistent and that by itself will allow him to be better, but even that is assuming and assuming with a positive eye test. Imagine if we were talking about assuming someone can shoot well bc he shot well for 6 games, but poorly for another 79 games.

Anyways, I think you have some valid points. A 2 year contract is not too risky and he could be good value if such consistency to his better games is reached. Longer than that, risk starts to get thwarted against Simms favor which is why I doubt they do match on a poison pill contract. It's just really unlikely he gets that at this point.

I'm not defensive about Manu, I'm just saying that as long as Manu doesn't handicap the Spurs chances of signing a significant piece I don't care what he gets. So, if the Spurs make all their moves and then decide to bring back Manu for one last year, I don't care if they pay him the minimum or 7 millions per year since I don't have to pay him and that contract wouldn't make a difference in the cap space of the next offseason.

[south side spur]

You're wasting your time with these metrics bro. Fanboys don't care. If numbers don't support their player it's all about the eye test. Metrics can only validate their player it's pretty simple.

[Spurtacular]

I knew he was bad by my eye test but last night, arguing with another poster about Simmons, I got to look at his stats and it surprised me to see that his numbers are even worse than I imagined. Last season in 78 games he averaged:

6.2 ppg - 1.6 apg - 1.0 topg - 1.9 rpg - 42 FG% - 29 3P% - 50 TS% - 9.9 PER - -2.8 OPM - 0.9 DPM - -1.9 PM - 0.0 VORP

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/simmojo02.html

Is this the guy some of you are desperate to bring back? Is this the guy worth 10 million per year? Sorry sons but fuck that shit, tbh.

I thought he was showing promise on offense. What kills me is that he plays defense in the half court set like a scared possum. He never knows the rotations, and he's finnicky as fuck as his guy is constantly getting open with ease as he twitches.

[SAGirl]

You're wasting your time with these metrics bro. Fanboys don't care. If numbers don't support their player it's all about the eye test. Metrics can only validate their player it's pretty simple.

that is true in these forums anyway. some guys do get what he's saying but don't care.
I think he has a point for sure. For the ones who don't want to see it...
https://media.giphy.com/media/G5X63GrrLjjVK/giphy.gif

[pad300]

I think Simmons is staring an SJax in 2003 situation in the face here. He's either going to go somewhere on a really cheap, 1+1 contract, to show he can be a man outside the Spurs system, or the Spurs are going to bring him back on the cheap to be a roleplayer. This kind of sucks to be him, but Tyreke Evans taking $3.5M or so kind of set the market - Tyreke being younger with a more productive history, which is counterbalanced by his injury issues...

[BackHome]

He wouldn't even be in the league if it wasn't for the Spurs I think he will be very VERY HAPPY with 3.5 mill paycheck..:)

[cjw]

I think Simmons is staring an SJax in 2003 situation in the face here. He's either going to go somewhere on a really cheap, 1+1 contract, to show he can be a man outside the Spurs system, or the Spurs are going to bring him back on the cheap to be a roleplayer. This kind of sucks to be him, but Tyreke Evans taking $3.5M or so kind of set the market - Tyreke being younger with a more productive history, which is counterbalanced by his injury issues...

He's a restricted free agent. If he goes "somewhere" on a cheap 1+1 deal the Spurs almost certainly match, though they wouldn't be able to trade him for a year. S-Jax got a bigger one year deal in Atlanta.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q101

[TheGreatYacht]

He wouldn't even be in the league if it wasn't for the Spurs I think he will be very VERY HAPPY with 3.5 mill paycheck..:)
:lol no

Especially not when D-League Green and Manure just came off last season earning $24M combined while Simmons earned $800k

[Ice009]

I think Simmons is staring an SJax in 2003 situation in the face here. He's either going to go somewhere on a really cheap, 1+1 contract, to show he can be a man outside the Spurs system, or the Spurs are going to bring him back on the cheap to be a roleplayer. This kind of sucks to be him, but Tyreke Evans taking $3.5M or so kind of set the market - Tyreke being younger with a more productive history, which is counterbalanced by his injury issues...

How long will the Spurs wait, though? I remember at some point they told Jack that they're moving on and it's too late to re-sign with them. Will they give Simmons a deadline if he takes too long?

[MaNu4Tres]

How long will the Spurs wait, though? I remember at some point they told Jack that they're moving on and it's too late to re-sign with them. Will they give Simmons a deadline if he takes too long?

Spurs can afford to wait bc they hold his bird rights ( they can go over the cap to re-sign if needed) & hes restricted.

Jackson wasnt restricted. He was UFA

[SAGirl]

How long will the Spurs wait, though? I remember at some point they told Jack that they're moving on and it's too late to re-sign with them. Will they give Simmons a deadline if he takes too long?

Tomorrow is the deadline to unilaterally withdraw the QO which would make him an unrestricted free agent.

I think at this point, him being restricted is really hurting him bc the market for bigger contracts has dried up, roleplayers are signing cheaper 1 or 2 year deals and no team is going to tie up capspace with an offer that they suspect Spurs will match, or they have to make it so high as to be unpalatable for the Spurs, in which case it might be unpalatable for the team giving it as well. All the middling and mediocre regular season numbers are there for other teams to see and they might care squat about playoff Simmons if the dude is not going to be reliable in the regular season which is what they need him for. I am not saying they wouldn't have interest, but not "I am going to give you a poison pill type" interest.

[south side spur]

There's really no rush on either side. Maybe it's wishful thinking but I think the Spurs have the leverage now since no team has made an offer. As long as Ginobili hasn't made a decision it seems like the Spurs are just fine waiting for Simmons.

[Spursfanfromafar]

Post the bump in salary cap ..Wings of the same ilk as Simmons have been way over paid. He brings athleticism ..A degree of versatility and competitive rigour and has grown slowly but well for his role. 9 million per year for a four year contract is par for this league and will lock up a player who is a potentially good sixth man for sometime .. I would still take Simmons over someone like Kyle Anderson for the future because Kyle while being a decent and a smart player is not a fit for today's fast paced athletic NBA. His shot making is pretty much absent because of his slow release..His lateral movement is slow and smarts cann only take him so far...A back of the bench player. Simmons is more erratic.. needs to improve his jumper and prone to some mental mistakes but his athleticism is a major plus and when on a song he is good enough as a slasher, a finisher and even a midrange shooter besides providing sturdy defense and some basic ball handling. . a good backup to Kawhi . If Manu retires..He is a no brainer to be kept. If Manu returns.. the Spurs will keep Simmons if he signs for ~10 * 4 a la Green and if he doesn't ..They will ride with Forbes and White.

[EIC]

Basically the Spurs are: Kawhi Leonard, a power forward who can't show up for big games, another over-the-hill power forward, yet another over-the-hill (injured) power forward, an over-the-hill point guard coming off an Achilles, an over-the-hill shooting guard, and a bunch of end-of-the-bench role-players.

Sig worthy (with my edits).

[koriwhat]

Simmons shows up big in big games. The season opener against the champs. The playoffs (against the champs).

He likes the bright lights, a bit like Horry (but a different skillset, of course).

The Spurs don't need guys for the regular season -- they'll be fine. They need players who match up with Golden State and Simmons does that.

Exactly!

[ceperez]

Exactly!

Yes that's exactly right. Unfortunately, Aldridge is a regular season guy.

[Ice009]

How long will the Spurs wait, though? I remember at some point they told Jack that they're moving on and it's too late to re-sign with them. Will they give Simmons a deadline if he takes too long?

I wonder if this is what the Spurs did. Same as Sjax, got tired of him fucking around with them.

Other free agents such as Pau are probably waiting for their contracts, and maybe they can't talk numbers with them if they couldn't agree on a number with Simmons?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I'm glad someone is pointing this out. He might evolve into a decent rotation player but his ceiling is pretty low.

Basically the Spurs are Kawhi Leonard, a power forward who can't show up for big games, another over-the-hill power forward, yet another over-the-hill (injured) power forward, an over-the-hill point guard, an over-the-hill shooting guard, and a bunch of end of the bench role players.

An accurate realistic take :tu

[ducks]

Dude thought those numbers equal 50

[SAGirl]

https://orlandomagicdaily.com/2018/01/06/finding-jonathon-simmons-shot/
interesting article. perspective from a magic's fan.

[ducks]

Simons is like Murray in a smaller role ok big role not
Atleast Murray is not there yet could make it(hope so)

[ducks]

I still would prefer Simmons here especially over Paul

[SAGirl]

He didn't want to remain a fringe bench player. That is what guys don't understand and he's getting 20 Million in 3 years to Brandon's unguaranteed rookie minimum. Just no comparison right now.
Anyways. just thought the article was interesting. Simmons still struggles to play off the ball a whole lot.

[ducks]

He did not want to be but right now still that is all he is. Still wish him the best.

[daslicer]

I miss his dunks and energy plays but it is what is.

[cjw]

Simons is like Murray in a smaller role ok big role not
Atleast Murray is not there yet could make it(hope so)

Murray is also 7 years younger. Simmons is turning 30 the offseason after this upcoming one.

[TheGreatYacht]

Aw man, what a terrible backfire from the guy that brought us goods like "Start Bertans" & "BP3 > Simmons" :lmao

[TheGreatYacht]

961056721639649280
961061870181302272
961058499135459328

In before Fathead fluffers try to discredit his 34pt performance after they bopped up their boy for dropping a whole 12pts against this same defense

[vy65]

Holy fuck what a godawful take

[DAF86]

I saw the game, the Cavs aren't even trying right now. Still pretty good game by Simmons.

It was obvious that with more minutes and a bigger role Simmons was going to put some games like these, he did it with the Spurs too. Still, if you look at his overall numbers for the entire season they are pretty much what I expected, i.e: not very good.

Simmons is what we already knew: a journeyman that can slash a bit but that's it. He can't shoot, he can't create (lol as many turnovers as assists) and now he doesn't even defend.

But nice once in a month bump as always, tbh. :lol

[objective]

Letting Simmons walk for chump change helped kill the contender status of the Spurs, combined with the shit deals for Mills and Pau

[urunobili]

Letting Simmons walk for chump change helped kill the contender status of the Spurs, combined with the shit deals for Mills and Pau

[Ice009]

I think the Spurs were a little up themselves and thought they could just get someone like Brandon Paul, plug him in and he'd be the same player Simmons was for them, but at a much cheaper price.

They were wrong.

[DAF86]

Holy fuck what a godawful take
TheGreatYacht's once every blue moon overreaction to a single game performance? Yeah, I agree. Some people just can't help but jizz at small sample size instead of looking at the big picture, tbh. I don't know if it is because it helps their agendas or because they are just short sighted.

[TheGreatYacht]

But nice once in a month bump as always, tbh. :lol
I don't bump Simmons threads every game bc i have better shit to bump but it surely ain't because he's been awful :lol he'd be the Spurs second leading scorer. I could've bumped this when dropped 23 the other day or the good week he had last week....

Still... that's more than you bump your BP3 takes :lmao

[DAF86]

Letting Simmons walk for chump change helped kill the contender status of the Spurs, combined with the shit deals for Mills and Pau

Dude, he really hasn't been that good at all, tbh. If he was still here, people would be bitching about his scrub ass.

I do rather have signed him to a 20 millions/3 year deal than signing Mills and Gasol for what they got, but that's more an indictment of how bad the Gasol and Mills contracts are than anything else, tbh.

[Robz4000]

Its been said before but Simmons seemingly didn't want to be a Spur so it's not like the Spurs could force him to stay (or at least it isn't their MO). Regardless, I'd much rather have him than Paul.

[vy65]

TheGreatYacht's once every blue moon overreaction to a single game performance? Yeah, I agree. Some people just can't help but jizz at small sample size instead of looking at the big picture, tbh. I don't know if it is because it helps their agendas or because they are just short sighted.

Everyone has an agenda. You obviously didn’t want Simmons on the team. Are you happy with the current, post-Simmons roster?

[TheGreatYacht]

Simmons knew he was the best SG on the squad (and it wasn't close) but was rightfully pissed when Poop continued to put him in the doghouse despite shining when he did get minutes, ESPECIALLY in big time games against the Warriors Cavs and Rockets. I'm sure some locker room politics went on from the other SG's on the team. It is what it is. Poop stayed loyal to GLeague and Manure.

[DAF86]

Everyone has an agenda. You obviously didn’t want Simmons on the team. Are you happy with the current, post-Simmons roster?

No, but that has nothing to do with Simmons, tbh.

FWIW, I already said that I would rather have Simmons on his current contract than Mills and Gasol for theirs. But that doesn't mean that Simmons isn't the same limited journeyman I always knew he was. If you look at the OP folks were talking about giving Simmons a contract similar to what Patty got. That would have been just as bad (if not worse) than giving it to Mills.

[TheGreatYacht]

OKC is heavily linked to him right now with the deadline approaching. I'd kill to see him outplay Fathead (like he always has and will) and give Pop the middle finger while the old man is on his way to vacation.

[vy65]

No, but that has nothing to do with Simmons, tbh.

No, it does. There’s no point in griping about Simmons stats when you would prefer him to the current roster. That’s why your take is godawful.

[objective]

Dude, he really hasn't been that good at all, tbh. If he was still here, people would be bitching about his scrub ass.

I do rather have signed him to a 20 millions/3 year deal than signing Mills and Gasol for what they got, but that's more an indictment of how bad the Gasol and Mills contracts are than anything else, tbh.

At least he could penetrate to get his own shot or create for others. He could attack without a pick.

Pop gets on his guys to "pass, dribble, or shoot". But nothing happens because nobody can dribble TO the rim. Even with a pick, it's so hard for them to do.

With Simmons that's no problem.

And he defends better than the midgets

[vy65]

No, but that has nothing to do with Simmons, tbh.

FWIW, I already said that I would rather have Simmons on his current contract than Mills and Gasol for theirs. But that doesn't mean that Simmons isn't the same limited journeyman I always knew he was. If you look at the OP folks were talking about giving Simmons a contract similar to what Patty got. That would have been just as bad (if not worse) than giving it to Mills.

Except, back in reality, we know that Simmons would take 50-60 cents on Patty’s dollar.

[DAF86]

No, it does. There’s no point in griping about Simmons stats when you would prefer him to the current roster. That’s why your take is godawful.

Can you read? I would rather have him over Mills and Gasol on their current contracts. That doesn't mean I want him on the roster. I would rather have none of the three, tbh. And it also doesn't mean that I think Simmons is better than Gasol and Mills. Gasol is easily >>>>> Simmons, but his contract is so bad that I would rather have a scrub like Simmons only because he makes a lot less money and doesn't compromise our cap situation. Now you get it?

[objective]

OKC is heavily linked to him right now with the deadline approaching. I'd kill to see him outplay Fathead (like he always has and will) and give Pop the middle finger while the old man is on his way to vacation.

If OKC gets him, the Spurs will look EVEN STUPIDER. He'd be great, they can probably get him for Abrines and a 2nd.

That would be the perfect disgrace.

[DAF86]

Except, back in reality, we know that Simmons would take 50-60 cents on Patty’s dollar.

And we also know that he didn't want to stay a Spur so...

[vy65]

Can you read? I would rather have him over Mills and Gasol on their current contracts. That doesn't mean I want him on the roster. I would rather have none of the three, tbh. And it also doesn't mean that I think Simmons is better than Gasol and Mills. Gasol is easily >>>>> Simmons, but his contract is so bad that I would rather have a scrub like Simmons only because he makes a lot less money and doesn't compromise our cap situation. Now you get it?

Again, what is the point in bitching about a players stas when you would take him on your team. Regardless of whether you think his stats are terrible, which is debatable, you still think he’s a net improvement over the status who. How are you not understanding this, it’s a really simple point.

[vy65]

And we also know that he didn't want to stay a Spur so...

We do? I remember it being the opposite, but could be wrong. Link?

[TheGreatYacht]

If OKC gets him, the Spurs will look EVEN STUPIDER. He'd be great, they can probably get him for Abrines and a 2nd.

That would be the perfect disgrace.
It'd be such an Alpha Presti move. I love it

[objective]

And we also know that he didn't want to stay a Spur so...

That's the fake news the Spurs fans use to get to sleep.

Yeah, he REALLY wanted to have a small partially guaranteed 3rd year to come off the bench for a lottery team.

[Ice009]

Is OKC after him? Spurs would look stupid if OKC get him and he becomes a big part of their rotation.

[vy65]

That's the fake news the Spurs fans use to get to sleep.

Yeah, he REALLY wanted to have a small partially guaranteed 3rd year to come off the bench for a lottery team.

My recollection is PATFO low balled him (compared to the 6/year he got), and people here buy the narrative he wanted out.

[vy65]

But it’s ok because we signed Patty instead.

[DAF86]

At least he could penetrate to get his own shot or create for others. He could attack without a pick.

Pop gets on his guys to "pass, dribble, or shoot". But nothing happens because nobody can dribble TO the rim. Even with a pick, it's so hard for them to do.

With Simmons that's no problem.

And he defends better than the midgets

When you say others you mean the other team, right? TheGreatYacht loves to shit on Ginobili for his turnovers but Manu never averaged as many turnovers as assists like Simmons does, tbh. And we know this isn't a one time thing because he was equally inept on the turnover to assist ratio on his two years here too.

Again, Simmons is a journeyman that is only above average at slashing. He wasn't some kind of saviour as some seem to think here.

[DAF86]

Again, what is the point in bitching about a players stas when you would take him on your team. Regardless of whether you think his stats are terrible, which is debatable, you still think he’s a net improvement over the status who. How are you not understanding this, it’s a really simple point.

OK, I will make this even simpler for you: I WOULD NOT TAKE SIMMONS ON THE TEAM. I JUST SAID I WOULD TAKE HIM OVER MILLS AND GASOL BECAUSE I WANTED TO POINT OUT HOW AWFUL I THINK MILLS AND GASOL'S CONTRACTS ARE. I DO NOT WANT MILLS, I DO NOT WANT GASOL AND I DO NOT WANT SIMMONS UNDRAFTED SCRUB ASS.

[objective]

When you mean other you refer to the other team, right? @thereatyacht loves to shit on Ginobili for his turnovers but Many never averaged as many turnovers as assists like Simmons does, tbh. And we know this isn't a one time thing because he was equally inept on the turnover to assist ratio on his two years here too.

Again, Simmons is a journeyman that is only above average at slashing. He wasn't some kind of saviour as some seem to think here.

That slashing is needed on this team, above average or otherwise

[SAGirl]

Its been said before but Simmons seemingly didn't want to be a Spur so it's not like the Spurs could force him to stay (or at least it isn't their MO). Regardless, I'd much rather have him than Paul.

He really didn’t want to come back. I think he expected to get paid more but once the market for him wasn’t as high as he initially thought, he’d just as soon be elsewhere and that’s an indictment on PATFO.

[DAF86]

We do? I remember it being the opposite, but could be wrong. Link?

https://www.google.com.ar/amp/s/www.poundingtherock.com/platform/amp/2017/10/27/16557128/jonathon-simmons-explains-why-left-san-antonio-spurs

[DAF86]

That's the fake news the Spurs fans use to get to sleep.

Yeah, he REALLY wanted to have a small partially guaranteed 3rd year to come off the bench for a lottery team.

A lot of players would rather be head of mouse instead of tail of lion, tbh.

I do I agree that Simmons would have gone to whoever team offered the most money, but offering more money than what the Magic gave him would have been a mistake.

[vy65]

I WOULD NOT TAKE SIMMONS ON THE TEAM.


I would rather have him over Mills and Gasol on their current contracts.

Hmmmmmm

[SAGirl]

If OKC gets him, the Spurs will look EVEN STUPIDER. He'd be great, they can probably get him for Abrines and a 2nd.

That would be the perfect disgrace.
Spurs should hope he stays in a bad team like the Magic

[vy65]

https://www.google.com.ar/amp/s/www.poundingtherock.com/platform/amp/2017/10/27/16557128/jonathon-simmons-explains-why-left-san-antonio-spurs

This is on the Spurs and their system.

[DAF86]

Hmmmmmm

Really dude? :lol

[Chinook]

I do love the simultaneous attitudes that Simmons was so valuable to the Spurs but also that Orlando being willing to let him go for nothing is merely incidental.

[vy65]

Really dude? :lol

Yeah dude

[SAGirl]

That's the fake news the Spurs fans use to get to sleep.

Yeah, he REALLY wanted to have a small partially guaranteed 3rd year to come off the bench for a lottery team.
He wanted more shots, and a better role than Pop was willing to give him. He wanted to be free if Pops system. Think if the Spurs paid him what he wanted he would have stayed but IMO if he was going to get a moderate contract he’s just as soon be elsewhere.

[vy65]

You might think those two ideas are consistent, but they’re really not dude

[Chinook]

And again, before anyone thinks I'm butt-hurt, remember I have Jon on my fantasy team. I love to see these types of games from him.

[Chinook]

You might think those two ideas are consistent, but they’re really not dude

They are. Like in DAF's perfect world none of the three would be on the team. But if he could get rid of Patty and Pau by having Simmons, he would.

[DAF86]

This is on the Spurs and their system.

"Jonathon Simmons explains why he left the Spurs"

``I actually think I struggled in the Spurs system because I was like this (in and out) all of the time,”

``Pop always wants you to slow down and learn a lot of things and that’s was great for me because I learned a lot. But now I think it’s time to release the animal inside of me.’’

``Pop understood that and I explained that to him,’’ added Simmons, referring to his desire for a bigger role on the team. ``I told him that I just couldn’t play at the highest level that I wanted to there (in San Antonio). I want to become great and play against those elite guys every night myself. He tipped his hat to me and told me if I ever needed anything else from him he’d be there for me. We still have a great relationship and I’m looking forward to seeing him.’’

[DAF86]

They are. Like in DAF's perfect world none of the three would be on the team. But if he could get rid of Patty and Pau by having Simmons, he would.

Actually, I would have Pau, but on his original contract that would make him an expiring this offseason.

[objective]

What is Simmons supposed to say instead?

"I hate Orlando. I hate going into camp with the same role and minutes on a lottery team as I had in San Antonio. I hate that the only team offering me real money put my head in a vice and squeezed until I agreed to the not fully guaranteed final year. I hate that the Spurs are so confident they can replace me with the minimum that I'm forced to back up Terence Ross and Fournier and compete with Mario."

No

He's going to talk about wanting a new opportunity, a new etc etc

It's saving face

[Chinook]

What is Simmons supposed to say instead?

"I hate Orlando. I hate going into camp with the same role and minutes on a lottery team as I had in San Antonio. I hate that the only team offering me real money put my head in a vice and squeezed until I agreed to the not fully guaranteed final year. I hate that the Spurs are so confident they can replace me with the minimum that I'm forced to back up Terence Ross and Fournier and compete with Mario."

No

He's going to talk about wanting a new opportunity, a new etc etc

It's saving face

This has been baseless speculation every time you said it. It's not any more true after the repetition

[SequSpur]

I agree Objective. Fuck these naysayers.. I mean seriously.. Simmons is hands down better than any fucking Spur right now not named Kawhi. What a fucked up move. Pop is an old stubborn bastard who needs to fucking leave and go coach the lakers or whatever the fuck he is doing... He has fucked up this team.

[DAF86]

What is Simmons supposed to say instead?

"I hate Orlando. I hate going into camp with the same role and minutes on a lottery team as I had in San Antonio. I hate that the only team offering me real money put my head in a vice and squeezed until I agreed to the not fully guaranteed final year. I hate that the Spurs are so confident they can replace me with the minimum that I'm forced to back up Terence Ross and Fournier and compete with Mario."

No

He's going to talk about wanting a new opportunity, a new etc etc

It's saving face

He could have not said anything. Or if it is indeed how you think it is, he could have said something along the lines of "I loved my time here but I got this great offer from the Magic and I think it was the right move and blah, blah, blah". You know, the typical stuff. He didn't need to go to so much detail and get to the point of inventing quotes of a supposedly imaginary talk with Popovich to save face, tbh.

[SAGirl]

What is Simmons supposed to say instead?

"I hate Orlando. I hate going into camp with the same role and minutes on a lottery team as I had in San Antonio. I hate that the only team offering me real money put my head in a vice and squeezed until I agreed to the not fully guaranteed final year. I hate that the Spurs are so confident they can replace me with the minimum that I'm forced to back up Terence Ross and Fournier and compete with Mario."

No

He's going to talk about wanting a new opportunity, a new etc etc

It's saving face
You can think that.

I really do think he wanted to move on. Many others like Marco, Boban, CoJo, etc were straightforward that other teams gave them more than the Spurs offered. In CoJos case Spurs couldn’t match on his offer. Etc. It was clear other teams outbid the Spurs for their services.

Not Jsimms. He asked for the QO to be pulled and he was very clear (more than one interview) that he wanted to move on. I think it’s possible RC didn’t respect him as FA and thus alienated him with an insulting lack of any offer (beyond a very low QO). I really do believe RC was probably that reckless as to not take him seriously.

They may have told him they would have match offers for him within reason. But the problem for the Spurs was that once they sent him out to other teams to get offers he was sold on a role elsewhere that he wouldn’t have gotten with the Spurs. You don’t think that stuff was important to him? It goes with things he said even while he was in the Spurs tbh. He’s ambitious and he wanted a more prominent role.

[objective]

Believe what you guys want.

Just ask yourselves:

If the Spurs offered more, or a full guarantee on that last year ... Does he still leave?

A guy who had made nothing?

Pau didn't mind the lack of Opera and culture when he was on the verge of taking the MLE, until Chicago came in over the top.

[SAGirl]

Believe what you guys want.

Just ask yourselves:

If the Spurs offered more, or a full guarantee on that last year ... Does he still leave?

A guy who had made nothing?

Pau didn't mind the lack of Opera and culture when he was on the verge of taking the MLE, until Chicago came in over the top.
We we would be speculating there but I don’t believe they would have offered him more than Orlando to keep him. I would probably agree with a view where the Spurs didn’t try to outbid the Magic.

I do believe they penny pinched him hard (while being free wheely with Pau and Mills).

And I do believe they didn’t really respect him as FA all that much... the basically wanted to match what he got and I think JSimms thought, you know what? If the money is the same, I am gone. And thus he was gone.

[DAF86]

Believe what you guys want.

Just ask yourselves:

If the Spurs offered more, or a full guarantee on that last year ... Does he still leave?

A guy who had made nothing?

Pau didn't mind the lack of Opera and culture when he was on the verge of taking the MLE, until Chicago came in over the top.

No, I don't think so. But I already told you that. Matter is, offering Simmons more than what he got would have been bad business.

A more interesting question is: "if the Spurs would have offered him exactly the same as Orlando, Simmons would have stayed?"

[Budkin]

But it’s ok because we signed Patty instead.

Got him for a deal too! Only 50 million!

[objective]

Simmons wanting to come off the bench for a lottery team is still a coping mechanism.

Because it absolves people and the Spurs about being wrong on the basketball side of things. They can keep being wrong because they have the cover of Simmons Hearts Magic.

Everyone who wanted Simmons cut or insisted he was a scrub has their "Get Out of Being Laughably Wrong Free" card. "But but Simms wanted out! There was nothing they could do!"

Of course there was something they could do. Offer him more money for one. Match him for two.

[objective]

No, I don't think so. But I already told you that. Matter is, offering Simmons more than what he got would have been bad business.

A more interesting question is: "if the Spurs would have offered him exactly the same as Orlando, Simmons would have stayed?"

You mean "if the Spurs had matched would he have stayed?"

The answer is yes. It's why teams want to have rfa rights. It's about using every asset.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I was never of the opinion that Simmons was capable of being more than a capable role player, but I've of paid him over some of the contracts the Spurs handed out. Simmons playing great against the Cavs doesn't say too much though...Murray looked good against the Cavs too.

[BackHome]

Same pay but potential starting and living In Orlando easy desicion

[DAF86]

You mean "if the Spurs had matched would he have stayed?"

The answer is yes. It's why teams want to have rfa rights. It's about using every asset.

I thought you were eliminating the restricted free agent stuff of your hypothetical scenario when you asked: "If the Spurs offered more, or a full guarantee on that last year ... Does he still leave?"

[SAGirl]

You mean "if the Spurs had matched would he have stayed?"

The answer is yes. It's why teams want to have rfa rights. It's about using every asset.
That’s where we disagree. I don’t think he would have stayed for the same money. He asked for the QO to be pulled and his agent leaked that they were looking for offers from other teams and wouldn’t come back to the Spurs even b4 he signed with the Magic.

Playing time and role are important to him. He said that, more than once and he had a clearer path to a starting role in Orlando, plus he had a 6th man role offered to him. He didn’t have those things in SA. Depending how hungry you are for playing time you’d rather play in a worse team with less structure, where you have a bigger opportunity to rise and get a name for yourself than in a playoff team with a structured system, entrenched guys etc and no real path to get more shots.

[DAF86]

Simmons wanting to come off the bench for a lottery team is still a coping mechanism.

Because it absolves people and the Spurs about being wrong on the basketball side of things. They can keep being wrong because they have the cover of Simmons Hearts Magic.

Everyone who wanted Simmons cut or insisted he was a scrub has their "Get Out of Being Laughably Wrong Free" card. "But but Simms wanted out! There was nothing they could do!"

Of course there was something they could do. Offer him more money for one. Match him for two.

I don't need no get out card, tbh. I've been posting on this thread since the beginning of the season stats that suggest that Simmons is the same limited player that he was on his stint here. He still can't shoot, he still can't average more assists than turnovers and he's still a negative impact player all across the board, tbh.

[objective]

I thought you were eliminating the restricted free agent stuff of your hypothetical scenario when you asked: "If the Spurs offered more, or a full guarantee on that last year ... Does he still leave?"

Let me clarify for you though it should be clear: if the Spurs offered more or guaranteed third year, does he not sign the offer?

Because if he was so diehard to get out, then he would not have signed no matter what. But I doubt it. Do you?

They had his RFA, they should have used it. I think he was worth even more. He is absolutely worth what he got.

Now, if the Spurs had replaced him with another defensive slasher like Hanga on a cheaper deal, I would have been fine. Rather have Simmons, but if Hanga was signed for a 3/12 or 3/9 or 3/13, etc, I think that's understandable. Reasonable.

But they didn't.

[objective]

That’s where we disagree. I don’t think he would have stayed for the same money. He asked for the QO to be pulled and his agent leaked that they were looking for offers from other teams and wouldn’t come back to the Spurs even b4 he signed with the Magic.

Playing time and role are important to him. He said that, more than once and he had a clearer path to a starting role in Orlando, plus he had a 6th man role offered to him. He didn’t have those things in SA. Depending how hungry you are for playing time you’d rather play in a worse team with less structure, where you have a bigger opportunity to rise and get a name for yourself than in a playoff team with a structured system, entrenched guys etc and no real path to get more shots.

I think, but don't know, that he wanted the QO pulled because teams weren't offering, afraid of the Spurs matching. The Spurs weren't offering what he got from Orlando, but could have and should have matched. But no one would do the offer with SA holding the rights.

He wanted money. No one would offer with the RFA looming. If he was going to get the money, he couldn't under the RFA. Spurs for whatever reason thought they could make lightning strike twice with Paul and realized that if Orlando put it in writing and they matched, they'd be paying the tax this year. They decided he wasn't worth the tax, and Mills was.

[MaNu4Tres]

I don't need no get out card, tbh. I've been posting on this thread since the beginning of the season stats that suggest that Simmons is the same limited player that he was on his stint here. He still can't shoot, he still can't average more assists than turnovers and he's still a negative impact player all across the board, tbh.

Still better than Patty too. Still has a skill set thats more valuable against good teams.

[SAGirl]

I might look it up tomorrow if I feel like it but his agent asked for the QO to be pulled after the Spurs backpedaled on a trade with the Suns that would have brought Tyson Chandler to the Spurs in exchange for Simmons. Immediately after his agent said they were looking for offers from teams other than the Spurs and that he wouldn’t be back. That was before he signed with Orlando. After he got the offer from Orlando and agreed on a deal his agent explained that they didn’t get offers while he as restricted and that the Spurs did him a favor lifting the QO bc they didn’t really have to. They could have penny punches him harder like Mirotic like Jamychal Green who didn’t sign with the Grizz until right b4 training camp. The Spurs could have leveraged their QO and Simmons RFA status to realky squeeze him but instead they set him free per his request.

I don’t think they tried to outbid the Magic at all. They may have wanted to match but JSimms had his mind made up. I really think if the money was the same, he would much rather be in the Magic.

[DAF86]

Let me clarify for you though it should be clear: if the Spurs offered more or guaranteed third year, does he not sign the offer?

Because if he was so diehard to get out, then he would not have signed no matter what. But I doubt it. Do you?

They had his RFA, they should have used it. I think he was worth even more. He is absolutely worth what he got.

Now, if the Spurs had replaced him with another defensive slasher like Hanga on a cheaper deal, I would have been fine. Rather have Simmons, but if Hanga was signed for a 3/12 or 3/9 or 3/13, etc, I think that's understandable. Reasonable.

But they didn't.

I do think he would have stayed. To me it's obvious that all Simmons cared about was the money. I do also think that he wasn't comfortable with his role on the Spurs and he was never all that fond of the Spur to begin with (just remember his celebration of 6).

And no, I don't think Simmons is worth more than what he got, that's why he didn't get it. Last season I probably didn't even think he was worth what he got, but then the Mills and Gasol signings happened and suddenly the Simmons' contract didn't look too bad.

But I repeat: the dude sucks. He's a journeyman having his two minutes of fame and he still rates as a borderline mediocre player at best. There shouldn't be these much crying about this guy, imho.

[DAF86]

Still better than Patty too. Still has a skill set thats more valuable against good teams.

Maybe. Though, if Mills hits his threes like he did in '14, a case could be made the other way.

Either way, neither of these guys are players that would help you get over the GS hump. The team that beats the Warriors will not have a guy like Jonathan fucking Simmons or Patty Mills as important pieces. To beat the Warriors you need well rounded player that bring substance over flash, tbh.

[SAGirl]

BTW, I am not a JSimms hater though I think he gets overrated by some here with trolling intentions (and objective isn’t one).

I think he could have helped this season but in a fully healthy team he likely still would have been around 9-10 man and Pop would still have played Anderson, except this season he would have added Bryn Forbes at time bc that’s who Pop is. Even now he’s calling up 2 way players and benching guys in his current rotation for these dleaguers so they get over themselves or to humble them, or to make them hungrier orjust bc he’s fishing for talent. JSimms knows this. In a fully healthy team his minutes may not have looked that much different from last year and he said he struggled last season bc of that and that he couldn’t play like that, including Pops benchings.

I mean he said these things. Like DAF86 said, he didn’t have to go through all this trouble to explain all this if he didn’t really think like that.

[MaNu4Tres]

Maybe. Though, if Mills hits his threes like he did in '14, a case could be made the other way.

Either way, neither of these guys are players that would help you get over the GS hump. The team that beats the Warriors will not have a guy like Jonathan fucking Simmons or Patty Mills as important pieces. To beat the Warriors you need well rounded player that bring substance over flash, tbh.

Even when Mills 3s fall once every 3 gsmes, hes a scarecrow on D. He matches up worse vs the best teams.

[DAF86]

Even when Mills 3s fall once every 3 gsmes, hes a scarecrow on D. He matches up worse vs the best teams.

Mills wasn't a liability against the Heat in '14, tbh. But anyway, I don't care to defend Mills because you know that agree with you on this.

But Simmons isn't that much better in that type of matchup either. Sure, his slashing and defense (although this season he has some awful defensive numbers) would help. But what about the rest? Contending teams know how to turn an off ball perimeter player that can't shoot into a liability over the course of a tight playoffs series.

[MaNu4Tres]

Mills wasn't a liability against the Heat in '14, tbh. But anyway, I don't care to defend Mills because you know that agree with you on this.

But Simmons isn't that much better in that type of matchup either. Sure, his slashing and defense (although this season he has some awful defensive numbers) would help. But what about the rest? Contending teams know how to turn an off ball perimeter player that can't shoot into a liability over the course of a tight playoffs series.

Mills 3 point shooting vs Heat is overstated & overrated. Heat were overrated with a lot of old vets who could no longer play, Wade wasn't the same either. It was LeBron and Bosh..tbh


Spurs mounted on 15 point leads and Mills piled on top of those leads by getting easy wide open transition 3s that wouldn't have mattered whether they went in or not. Spurs still win by double digits without Mills, as everyone piled on that series.

People make it seem like Mills was Kawhi that series...when he was just a Spurs Steve Kerr or an Eddie House.

[objective]

I do think he would have stayed. To me it's obvious that all Simmons cared about was the money. I do also think that he wasn't comfortable with his role on the Spurs and he was never all that fond of the Spur to begin with (just remember his celebration of 6).

And no, I don't think Simmons is worth more than what he got, that's why he didn't get it. Last season I probably didn't even think he was worth what he got, but then the Mills and Gasol signings happened and suddenly the Simmons' contract didn't look too bad.

But I repeat: the dude sucks. He's a journeyman having his two minutes of fame and he still rates as a borderline mediocre player at best. There shouldn't be these much crying about this guy, imho.

We 100% agree that he was all about the money.

That's been my point, if the Spurs paid him he's a Spur.

The "He didn't want to be here" thing doesn't matter. Maybe it's Simmons fans who play the card to get to sleep easy instead. But it was the money.

[objective]

Mills in 14 was a better defender because he wasn't so heavy and was younger

Let's not forget the Miami point guards. Not exactly a murderers row going up against Norris Cole and Tony Douglas, two guys out of the league. Chalmers started and hasn't been so hot since either.

[r0drig0lac]

Simmons knew he was the best SG on the squad (and it wasn't close) but was rightfully pissed when Poop continued to put him in the doghouse despite shining when he did get minutes, ESPECIALLY in big time games against the Warriors Cavs and Rockets. I'm sure some locker room politics went on from the other SG's on the team. It is what it is. Poop stayed loyal to GLeague and Manure.

this

[emanueldavidginobili]

If the Spurs has Simmons And Dedmon this season instead of Joffrey Mills we have 5 less losses this season

[UZER]

If the Spurs has Simmons And Dedmon this season instead of Joffrey Mills we have 5 less losses this season

But one more Trump supporter. Nope.

:pop:

[Ice009]

If the Spurs has Simmons And Dedmon this season instead of Joffrey Mills we have 5 less losses this season

I would have rather paid both of them instead of Mills.

Could the Spurs have given Dedmon 7M and also Simmons 6M and let Mills walk? If so, they should have done that instead.