Robert E Lee ex

[sickdsm]

Disclaimer: I'm a northerner who's only exposure to confederacy has been Dukes of Hazzard shows when i was a kid and shitty later career kid rock songs. I didn't grow up with the aura or alternate history. What i've been reading lately is that there maybe another side of Lee than what i was taught 25 years ago. When we were in school all confederate soldiers were horrible people that owned, beat, and sold slaves. Light wikipedia reading, ok, more like skimming, says he leaned towards the north and reluctantly went along with his state seceding. Other comments i've read said he freed his families slaves prior to the civil war. His legacy grew after his death, especially in northern states. Everything on the internet is to be taken with a grain of salt.

My point is, i get the difference between monuments of Washington and Lee. Mainly, that George was on the winning team.

But is the hatred of Lee's statues because of his treatment to slaves? Because it sounds like a lot of America's "hero's" were die hard slave fans. Was it because the victors write history?


What makes Lee's statues worth protesting either for or against but Crazy Horse and the like's do not receive such fanfare?

[SnakeBoy]

When we were in school all confederate soldiers were horrible people that owned, beat, and sold slaves.

Were you really taught this nonsense in school?

[sickdsm]

I guess my experience is what i paid attention to. My answer may not be the curriculum we were taught but as a kid, did you really pay much attention to American History? It was pretty boring but that's my takeaway. The union was the sympathetic, righteous, do gooder and everyone in the south owned or had a family that owned a plantation or was a slave.

[Adam Lambert]

its not just about being on the winning team or owning slaves. lee was a general in an army that fought against the united states of america in a war that was primarily about the right to own and trade people as property. after federal troops left the south in the early 1900s following reconstruction, the kkk grew in influence and many confederate memorials were built to honor the confederacy and stick a middle finger in the face of integration. like the kkk, these white knights of the confederacy were viewed as heroes. suddenly the confederate flag became cool again too.

crazy horse fought against the genocide of his people on land that they occupied before they were overrun and massacred on their own land. he was not a traitor to the union. he is worthy of honor. general lee is worthy of being a footnote in history books. fuck his statues.

[Pavlov]

Disclaimer: I'm a northerner who's only exposure to confederacy has been Dukes of Hazzard shows when i was a kid and shitty later career kid rock songs. I didn't grow up with the aura or alternate history. What i've been reading lately is that there maybe another side of Lee than what i was taught 25 years ago. When we were in school all confederate soldiers were horrible people that owned, beat, and sold slaves. Light wikipedia reading, ok, more like skimming, says he leaned towards the north and reluctantly went along with his state seceding. Other comments i've read said he freed his families slaves prior to the civil war. His legacy grew after his death, especially in northern states. Everything on the internet is to be taken with a grain of salt.

My point is, i get the difference between monuments of Washington and Lee. Mainly, that George was on the winning team.

But is the hatred of Lee's statues because of his treatment to slaves? Because it sounds like a lot of America's "hero's" were die hard slave fans. Was it because the victors write history?


What makes Lee's statues worth protesting either for or against but Crazy Horse and the like's do not receive such fanfare?What Crazy Horse and the like statues are you talking about?

Personally, I'm not a fan of idolizing those who killed in the name of treason and slavery.

[SnakeBoy]

I guess my experience is what i paid attention to. My answer may not be the curriculum we were taught but as a kid, did you really pay much attention to American History? It was pretty boring but that's my takeaway. The union was the sympathetic, righteous, do gooder and everyone in the south owned or had a family that owned a plantation or was a slave.

So you weren't actually taught that. Thanks.

[sickdsm]

What Crazy Horse and the like statues are you talking about?

Personally, I'm not a fan of idolizing those who killed in the name of treason and slavery.

Do you mean what crazy horse monument i'm talking about or what others i'm referring to? I guess i thought everyone was aware of https://crazyhorsememorial.org/ I should not assume its known outside of the are until done though.

I guess i'm talking about the too numerous to mention local northern monuments/statues of indian/outlaws like Red Cloud, Jessie James, etc...


When will the historical reenactments and city/county names feel the same protests?

[sickdsm]

So you weren't actually taught that. Thanks.

Not sure, You mind forwarding the youth curriculum you were exposed to during 5th through 9th grade within the next five minutes 25 years ago? You're response is showing your bias btw.

[sickdsm]

What Crazy Horse and the like statues are you talking about?

Personally, I'm not a fan of idolizing those who killed in the name of treason and slavery.

The older i get the more i believe theres a very fine line between treason and patriotism. Do we not honor the fallen "hero's" of foreign wars?

[Quadzilla99]

Not sure, You mind forwarding the youth curriculum you were exposed to during 5th through 9th grade within the next five minutes 25 years ago? You're response is showing your bias btw.

What bias does he have?

[Adam Lambert]

The older i get the more i believe theres a very fine line between treason and patriotism. Do we not honor the fallen "hero's" of foreign wars?


its not just about being on the winning team or owning slaves. lee was a general in an army that fought against the united states of america in a war that was primarily about the right to own and trade people as property. after federal troops left the south in the early 1900s following reconstruction, the kkk grew in influence and many confederate memorials were built to honor the confederacy and stick a middle finger in the face of integration. like the kkk, these white knights of the confederacy were viewed as heroes. suddenly the confederate flag became cool again too.

the lee statues and memorials are less about honoring lee and more about white america marking their territory against a growing free black population.

[sickdsm]

What bias does he have?

Saying that i wasn't taught that when i told him what i remember shows that he wants to call me a liar without knowing anything that i sat through.

[sickdsm]

the lee statues and memorials are less about honoring lee and more about white america marking their territory against a growing free black population.

What's with the Northern Union adopting him as a hero after his death then?

[Adam Lambert]

What's with the Northern Union adopting him as a hero after his death then?

he was paraded by the union to foster peaceful reconstruction and concession

[Pavlov]

Do you mean what crazy horse monument i'm talking about or what others i'm referring to? I guess i thought everyone was aware of https://crazyhorsememorial.org/ I should not assume its known outside of the are until done though.

I guess i'm talking about the too numerous to mention local northern monuments/statues of indian/outlaws like Red Cloud, Jessie James, etc...


When will the historical reenactments and city/county names feel the same protests?Crazy Horse Monument is on private land.

[sickdsm]

Crazy Horse Monument is on private land.

Understood, but there would still be protests if he was not considerd a hero. Is monuments on BIA ground considered public land?

[SnakeBoy]

Saying that i wasn't taught that when i told him what i remember shows that he wants to call me a liar without knowing anything that i sat through.

I'm not calling you a liar. I asked you if you were actually taught what you are saying in school and you said said you don't remember what you were actually taught. That's all I wanted to know.

[sickdsm]

he was paraded by the union to foster peaceful reconstruction and concession

Cliff Notes wiki summary show he wasn't a bad guy, also wasn't considered the confederate war hero.

TBH, sounded like if he was a union general he'd have been a President shortly thereafter.

We're basically down to ranking attrocities against our govt.

Slavery was legal prior to the war. Robbing banks and murdering people were never.

[sickdsm]

I'm not calling you a liar. I asked you if you were actually taught what you are saying in school and you said said you don't remember what you were actually taught. That's all I wanted to know.

I told you what i rememberd about american history.

You told me it didn't happen then.


If that ain't someone calling another a liar wtf is then?

nut up.

[Adam Lambert]

Cliff Notes wiki summary show he wasn't a bad guy, also wasn't considered the confederate war hero.

TBH, sounded like if he was a union general he'd have been a President shortly thereafter.

We're basically down to ranking attrocities against our govt.

Slavery was legal prior to the war. Robbing banks and murdering people were never.

what public monuments do we have to bank robbers and murderers?

anyway, i dont know any point in this countrys history where we havent viewed defecting and leading an army against the usa as worse than robbery or even murder.

[Adam Lambert]

and honestly you should really read more than a wikipedia summary if youre going to devote this much time to defending someone.

[Adam Lambert]

start here:
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

[Pavlov]

Understood, but there would still be protests if he was not considerd a hero. Is monuments on BIA ground considered public land?There were protests by people who thought he was a hero.

[Pavlov]

Cliff Notes wiki summary show he wasn't a bad guy, also wasn't considered the confederate war hero.

TBH, sounded like if he was a union general he'd have been a President shortly thereafter.

We're basically down to ranking attrocities against our govt.

Slavery was legal prior to the war. Robbing banks and murdering people were never.Secession, sedition and treason were never legal.

[boutons_deux]

the Confederate flag was insignificant until the the Dixicrats in 1948 began using it as racist, segregationist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_flag#Revival_and _controversy

the next massacre of blacks was after WWI where blacks had shown themselves to be the equal of whites as warriors

The Black Wall Street Massacre:

https://timeline.com/history-tulsa-race-massacre-a92bb2356a69

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/long-lost-manuscript-contains-searing-eyewitness-account-tulsa-race-massacre-1921-180959251/

[sickdsm]

and honestly you should really read more than a wikipedia summary if youre going to devote this much time to defending someone.

Man, you really need to commit to something in life if you think i'm devoting a lot of time here.


So which is it? That its a public/private deal, that he was on the losing side, or because of his slavery issues? I'd mention the monument of Benedict Arnold but I doubt i've done enough research for you. I can definitely take some pictures of BIA funded programs that have NA war hereo's on the wall. I'm not sure how much investigative research i need to do to reply or start a thread on ST.


Wiki is an excellent starting point for a casual conversation, do you disagree with that?

[Adam Lambert]

dont be so sensitive, my point is youve spent more time asking questions about lee than it would have taken to read a more detailed summary of his life.

i have already told you why its justifiable to remove his statues from public grounds. you are free to disagree with that reasoning, but the fact that you can find other examples that fit the description doesnt invalidate the reasoning. well get to the rest later, be patient. plenty of outrage to go around in due time.

basically it seems like youre saying that unless we evenly distribute the sum total of our criticism across every single outdated or wrongly erected monument, we shouldnt criticize any of them. thats a fallacy.

[sickdsm]

dont be so sensitive, my point is youve spent more time asking questions about lee than it would have taken to read a more detailed summary of his life.

i have already told you why its justifiable to remove his statues from public grounds. you are free to disagree with that reasoning, but the fact that you can find other examples that fit the description doesnt invalidate the reasoning. well get to the rest later, be patient. plenty of outrage to go around in due time.

basically it seems like youre saying that unless we evenly distribute the sum total of our criticism across every single outdated or wrongly erected monument, we shouldnt criticize any of them. thats a fallacy.

I appreciate your replies, even though you could bring a lot more tact to it, you at least bring a legitimate response to the table. I'm assuming most people here are internet hereo's that would never be in a position to respond to someone in person because their certified dicks here.

I'm not saying we shouldn't criticize them, i'm asking what makes him so much more vilified than others?

[Pavlov]

Eh, I think Lee is pretty overrated as a general. One competent union general and the war is over a bit after the peninsular campaign.

[monosylab1k]

Stonewall Jackson > Robert E. Lee

[Spurtacular]

Mainly, that George was on the winning team.

Lee was on the winning team, too. His battle victories against Mexico and the like were legendary. It was well known in all the land that he was the best military mind before the Civil War. Both sides fought to get him. Also, Lee only lost The Civil War b/c of his lesser numbers. He was constantly winning battles with lesser numbers though.

He had planned to side with the North until his home state of Virginia seceded. That is why he fought for the South.

[Spurtacular]

Stonewall Jackson > Robert E. Lee

That's like comparing Daryl Johnston to Tom Brady :lmao

[Adam Lambert]

I'm not saying we shouldn't criticize them, i'm asking what makes him so much more vilified than others?

they represent a view of humans that is still too prevalent today. those monuments were built to honor racism moreso than the people depicted in the monuments. evidence is in the ridiculous reaction to even the slightest hint that one of those monuments might be taken down (note that militias have shown up by the hundreds because of fake facebook pages to protect monuments that were never under attack). i doubt youd see that kind of reaction to a public movement to remove a statue of, like, billy the kid.

[ElNono]

Lee was on the winning team, too. His battle victories against Mexico and the like were legendary. It was well known in all the land that he was the best military mind before the Civil War. Both sides fought to get him. Also, Lee only lost The Civil War b/c of his lesser numbers. He was constantly winning battles with lesser numbers though.

He had planned to side with the North until his home state of Virginia seceded. That is why he fought for the South.

You mean "It was well known in all the land that he was the best military mind before he took a giant L"?.. :lol

[apalisoc_9]

Lee was on the winning team, too. His battle victories against Mexico and the like were legendary. It was well known in all the land that he was the best military mind before the Civil War. Both sides fought to get him. Also, Lee only lost The Civil War b/c of his lesser numbers. He was constantly winning battles with lesser numbers though.

He had planned to side with the North until his home state of Virginia seceded. That is why he fought for the South.

I trust Spurtacular depiction of the sad events at chart..afterall, we all know he was there because...

[Pavlov]

Lee was on the winning team, too. His battle victories against Mexico and the like were legendary. It was well known in all the land that he was the best military mind before the Civil War. Both sides fought to get him. Also, Lee only lost The Civil War b/c of his lesser numbers. He was constantly winning battles with lesser numbers though.

He had planned to side with the North until his home state of Virginia seceded. That is why he fought for the South.Pétain pretty much single handedly saved France twice in WWI but after he turned against the Third Republic they locked him up and threw away the key. Counterfactuals don't change anything. Lee betrayed his country and lost in spectacular fashion. He's lucky Lincoln was the most magnanimous dude to ever be President; Lee should've rotted in prison at the very least.

[Spurtacular]

I trust Spurtacular depiction of the sad events at chart..afterall, we all know he was there because...

Try making sense, snowflake.

[Spurtacular]

You mean "It was well known in all the land that he was the best military mind before he took a giant L"?.. :lol

It was the Milwaukee Bucks vs. the 97 Bulls, dude.

[RandomGuy]

Disclaimer: I'm a northerner who's only exposure to confederacy has been Dukes of Hazzard shows when i was a kid and shitty later career kid rock songs. I didn't grow up with the aura or alternate history. What i've been reading lately is that there maybe another side of Lee than what i was taught 25 years ago. When we were in school all confederate soldiers were horrible people that owned, beat, and sold slaves. Light wikipedia reading, ok, more like skimming, says he leaned towards the north and reluctantly went along with his state seceding. Other comments i've read said he freed his families slaves prior to the civil war. His legacy grew after his death, especially in northern states. Everything on the internet is to be taken with a grain of salt.

My point is, i get the difference between monuments of Washington and Lee. Mainly, that George was on the winning team.

But is the hatred of Lee's statues because of his treatment to slaves? Because it sounds like a lot of America's "hero's" were die hard slave fans. Was it because the victors write history?

What makes Lee's statues worth protesting either for or against but Crazy Horse and the like's do not receive such fanfare?

The vast majority of confederate soldiers were not slave-holders. They were, however, fighting to preserve a government that enthusiastically condoned and engaged in it.

The issue boils down to slavery. The Confederacy was, in the end, simply trying to preserve a monstrous evil.

Not something we should build monuments to.

[ducks]

most slaves were treated better then most kids in America
most treated them better then their kids
there were some bad slave owners though

[ElNono]

It was the Milwaukee Bucks vs. the 97 Bulls, dude.

Which means he chose wrong. That doesn't sound like the best mind of anything, or his ego got to him.

[ElNono]

most slaves were treated better then most kids in America
most treated them better then their kids
there were some bad slave owners though

Start picking cotton instead of posting on ST, let's see how well treated you feel.

Shut the fuck up, that's a Wild Chodebra-level argument.

[baseline bum]

most slaves were treated better then most kids in America
most treated them better then their kids
there were some bad slave owners though

Trump's base in a nutshell

[ducks]

Start picking cotton instead of posting on ST, let's see how well treated you feel.

Shut the fuck up, that's a Wild Chodebra-level argument.
so if the Mexicans pick in lettuce it is like slavery?
working hard in the fields is bad?

that is the problem everyone wants a easy high paying job that does not require work

in Yuma roofers start at 10 pm at night to avoid the heat but you know what they are not wanting the gov to feed them in the welfare line

[Adam Lambert]

so if the Mexicans pick in lettuce it is like slavery?
working hard in the fields is bad?

can that mexican choose to go work somewhere else if he wants to, you unbelievable fucking moron?

[ducks]

actually I had a friend try to work there and get experience
everything was in Spanish and was treated like he did not belong
he was in Yuma but was told to drive to summerton and get on the bus to drive to Yuma to pick the lettuce

the Mexican can not chose because they do not have welfare in mexico so they have to work in the lettuce field so no they have no choice
no one will hire them to do anything else since they have no skill
the ones that have skills have a choice but they are already welding or being a dentist

[ducks]

what has the democrats did for the blacks?
nothing but lets pick on the republicans
the only reason the media is all over this is so they think they can brain wash the blacks to continue voting for them and not do anything for them

[DarrinS]

I get why people want these monuments removed, but where do you draw the line? There are shitloads of these monuments across the US.

Should we blow up Stone Mountain?

[ducks]

should take all statues down!
I am sure they did something bad in their life and it could offend someone!

[Pavlov]

I get why people want these monuments removed, but where do you draw the line? There are shitloads of these monuments across the US.

Should we blow up Stone Mountain?Since that was the birthplace of the modern Klan, I think the GA state lege should consider altering it. I understand the historic antebellum laser light show must be preserved tho.

[Pavlov]

what has the democrats did for the blacks?
nothing but lets pick on the republicans
the only reason the media is all over this is so they think they can brain wash the blacks to continue voting for them and not do anything for themWell, a Republican murdered that lady over the weekend and Republicans are making all kinds of excuses for him. I'm going to pick on them for a bit.

[Spurminator]

I get why people want these monuments removed, but where do you draw the line? There are shitloads of these monuments across the US.

Should we blow up Stone Mountain?

I think things like that are worth looking at on a case by case basis. Stone Mountain has a terrible history but it may be worth preserving for its historical value. I could be persuaded either way.

A statue of Robert E. Lee built in a public park somewhere in Louisiana or Virginia doesn't really have the same historical or cultural relevance.

[DarrinS]

Since that was the birthplace of the modern Klan, I think the GA state lege should consider altering it.

Maybe just plaster over it? That would look nice.

Or, maybe just paint a big red X over it.

[pgardn]

What I find so interesting is that people living NOW can so easily divorce themselves from the thinking about people raised in a certain culture in the past. We are products of our culture. It's pure silliness to think the North as simply the good guys and the South as slave owners. The North did not rely on agriculture so slavery was easily labeled abhorrent. In fact in NY state there were riots over this issue. A significant portion of the State sympathized with the South. As far as treason by the South... this country was not even 100 years old, this had been festering ever since the late 1700's. In European terms it was about time for a civil war. France and England had theirs.

Further, do people on this board living in Nazi Germany as a child and taught they were under siege from WWI "atrocities" really think there is no way they would NOT have been a Nazi? If you grew up thinking that slaves were animals on a farm you could automatically divorce yourself from this way of thinking because you look back now?

Laughable...

As far as the statues. Put up an appropriate slave statue next to the offending statue. These statues are not symbols, they are remnants of our past. These things happened, as disgusting as they are now. They tell a story of our checkered past and in Lee's case, some very interesting historical debate that should not be brushed under the rug. If we got white supremacists in today's world knowing the past let them be seen. If we are really this fragile because we elected a zany leader....? Let them crawl out and be seen. Take their pictures. Let them explain themselves (to family and coworkers)

[DarrinS]

I think things like that are worth looking at on a case by case basis. Stone Mountain has a terrible history but it may be worth preserving for its historical value. I could be persuaded either way.

A statue of Robert E. Lee built in a public park somewhere in Louisiana or Virginia doesn't really have the same historical or cultural relevance.


I tend to lean on the side of preserving history, even the ugly parts.

I agree with not flying the confederate flag, tho.

[Pavlov]

Maybe just plaster over it? That would look nice.

Or, maybe just paint a big red X over it.Nope. Maybe you could try not being a disingenuous little girl just once.

[Spurminator]

These statues are not symbols, they are remnants of our past. These things happened, as disgusting as they are now. They tell a story of our checkered past and in Lee's case, some very interesting historical debate that should not be brushed under the rug.

The Lee statue that caused the flare-up in Charlottesville was built in 1924, almost 60 years after the Civil War ended. That would be like Germany erecting a statue of a Nazi general in 2004. There's a difference between preserving history and preserving honor.

[DarrinS]

Nope. Maybe you could try not being a disingenuous little girl just once.

How should Stone Mountain be altered?

[Spurtacular]

Which means he chose wrong. That doesn't sound like the best mind of anything, or his ego got to him.

His choice wasn't based on who was stronger. His choice was based on loyalty and values. It's very respectable; that and that he maybe kicked more ass than maybe any American general in history, I can see why people are pissed that a bunch of panty boys are trying to take down his statue.

[Spurminator]

His choice wasn't based on who was stronger. His choice was based on loyalty and values. It's very respectable; that and that he maybe kicked more ass than maybe any American general in history, I can see why people are pissed that a bunch of panty boys are trying to take down his statue.

His loyalty to the state he happened to live in was stronger than his opposition to slavery. How respectable.

[pgardn]

The Lee statue that caused the flare-up in Charlottesville was built in 1924, almost 60 years after the Civil War ended. That would be like Germany erecting a statue of a Nazi general in 2004. There's a difference between preserving history and preserving honor.

Aha!
Why was the statue built? I don't know the circumstances.

To be a source of contentiousness or ...

As far as time frames, that's difficult.

IMO There is absolutely NO way a statue of Hitler is going up in 2004 in Germany given Germany's mindset in 2004. That's going down as soon as it gets put up. Even in the middle of a neoNazi enclave. Germany does not mess around with overt Nazi stuff. Denying the holocaust can land you in jail. Free speech, no, not in many parts of Europe dealing with Nazi Germany. Shouting racial slurs at sporting events can get you fined and in jail. England and Germany. But not in Romania.

[Pavlov]

How should Stone Mountain be altered?Plenty of room up there. No reason to not add to the sculpture.

[Spurminator]

Aha!
Why was the statue built? I don't know the circumstances.

To be a source of contentiousness or ...

As far as time frames, that's difficult.

IMO There is absolutely NO way a statue of Hitler is going up in 2004 in Germany given Germany's mindset in 2004. That's going down as soon as it gets put up. Even in the middle of a neoNazi enclave. Germany does not mess around with overt Nazi stuff. Denying the holocaust can land you in jail. Free speech, no, not in many parts of Europe dealing with Nazi Germany. Shouting racial slurs at sporting events can get you fined and in jail. England and Germany. But not in Romania.

Exactly. Germany would never have erected a statue of a Nazi in 2004 because almost the entire population of Germany is rightfully ashamed of that chapter in its history.

The mindset in the South was much different in the early 20th Century when many of these monuments were being built. That's what those monuments represent: the stubborn refusal of the South to accept people of color as equal citizens.

[Pavlov]

His choice wasn't based on who was stronger. His choice was based on loyalty and values. It's very respectable; that and that he maybe kicked more ass than maybe any American general in history, I can see why people are pissed that a bunch of panty boys are trying to take down his statue.He was a traitor.

[DarrinS]

Plenty of room up there. No reason to not add to the sculpture.

To the people who want it altered, it would probably be more psychologically satisfying if they went full Taliban on it.

[Pavlov]

To the people who want it altered, it would probably be more psychologically satisfying if they went full Taliban on it.You would prefer that too since you could be forever snarky about it.

[Spurtacular]

His loyalty to the state he happened to live in was stronger than his opposition to slavery. How respectable.

Are you fucking retarded, or do you just play one on the internet. R. Lee freed his father's slaves when he came of age. He once wrote a letter in regards to the institution of slavery, saying, "slavery as an institution, is a moral and political evil in any country."

[Spurtacular]

He was a traitor.

No, he was a secessionist. And the Constitution never prohibited that.

[boutons_deux]

No, he was a secessionist. And the Constitution never prohibited that.

What was the legal basis the Confederacy could have used, instead of attacking the North and starting the war?

And why didn't the rebels use the law?

[Pavlov]

No, he was a secessionist. And the Constitution never prohibited that.All secessionists were traitors.

[RandomGuy]

most slaves were treated better then most kids in America
most treated them better then their kids
there were some bad slave owners though


Wow. Defending slavery, an institution that promoted rape, murder, and torture on a massive, industrial scale. "it wasn't that bad"

A new low.

No wonder you support Trump.

[RandomGuy]

so if the Mexicans pick in lettuce it is like slavery?
working hard in the fields is bad?

that is the problem everyone wants a easy high paying job that does not require work

in Yuma roofers start at 10 pm at night to avoid the heat but you know what they are not wanting the gov to feed them in the welfare line


The Zong massacre was the mass killing of 133 African slaves by the crew of the British slave ship Zong in the days following 29 November 1781.[note 1] The Gregson slave-trading syndicate, based in Liverpool, owned the ship and sailed her in the Atlantic slave trade. As was common business practice, they had taken out insurance on the lives of the slaves as cargo. When the ship ran low on potable water following navigational mistakes, the crew threw slaves overboard into the sea to drown, partly in order to ensure the survival of the rest of the ship's passengers, and in part to cash in on the insurance on the slaves, thus not losing money on the slaves who would have died from the lack of drinking water.

After the slave ship reached port at Black River, Jamaica, Zong's owners made a claim to their insurers for the loss of the slaves. When the insurers refused to pay, the resulting court cases (Gregson v Gilbert (1783) 3 Doug. KB 232) held that in some circumstances, the deliberate killing of slaves was legal and that insurers could be required to pay for the slaves' deaths. The judge, Lord Chief Justice, the Earl of Mansfield, ruled against the syndicate owners in this case, due to new evidence being introduced suggesting the captain and crew were at fault.


Children aren't thrown overboard, and claimed on insurance.

[RandomGuy]

so if the Mexicans pick in lettuce it is like slavery?
working hard in the fields is bad?

that is the problem everyone wants a easy high paying job that does not require work

in Yuma roofers start at 10 pm at night to avoid the heat but you know what they are not wanting the gov to feed them in the welfare line


subsequent to the visit of the local lawyer, one of LaLaurie's neighbors saw one of the LaLaurie's slaves, a twelve-year-old girl named Lia (or Leah), fall to her death from the roof of the Royal Street mansion while trying to avoid punishment from a whip-wielding Delphine LaLaurie. Lia had been brushing Delphine's hair when she hit a snag, causing Delphine to grab a whip and chase her. The body was subsequently buried on the mansion grounds. According to Martineau, this incident led to an investigation of the LaLauries, in which they were found guilty of illegal cruelty and forced to forfeit nine slaves. These nine slaves were then bought back by the LaLauries through the intermediary of one of their relatives, and returned to the Royal Street residences.[14] Similarly, Martineau reported stories that LaLaurie kept her cook chained to the kitchen stove, and beat her daughters when they attempted to feed the slaves.[15]

On April 10, 1834, a fire broke out in the LaLaurie residence on Royal Street, starting in the kitchen. When the police and fire marshals got there, they found a seventy-year-old woman, the cook, chained to the stove by her ankle. She later confessed to them that she had set the fire as a suicide attempt for fear of her punishment, being taken to the uppermost room, because she said that anyone who was taken there never came back.

Children don't fall to their deaths from roofs trying to escape being whipped for hitting a snag in a womans hair.

Oh, wait, this child did.

I guess you don't mind. "it wasn't that bad".

[Spurtacular]

All secessionists were traitors.

That's not how Lincoln saw it when he reinstated their rights of citizenship. Any other dumb shit you got to say? You're on a roll; fuckin' it up on multiple threads.

[RandomGuy]

so if the Mexicans pick in lettuce it is like slavery?
working hard in the fields is bad?

that is the problem everyone wants a easy high paying job that does not require work

in Yuma roofers start at 10 pm at night to avoid the heat but you know what they are not wanting the gov to feed them in the welfare line



The black morning at length came; it came too soon for my poor mother and us. Whilst she was putting on us the new osnaburgs [a coarse cloth used for work clothes] in which we were to be sold, she said, in a sorrowful voice (I shall never forget it!), 'See, I am shrouding my poor children; what a task for a mother!' ... the [other] slaves could say nothing to comfort us; they could only weep and lament with us. When I left my dear little brothers and the house in which I had been brought up, I thought my heart would burst.

Children aren't forcibly separated from their families upon sale.

Oh wait, these children were.

I guess that's ok. "It wasn't that bad".

[pgardn]

Exactly. Germany would never have erected a statue of a Nazi in 2004 because almost the entire population of Germany is rightfully ashamed of that chapter in its history.

The mindset in the South was much different in the early 20th Century when many of these monuments were being built. That's what those monuments represent: the stubborn refusal of the South to accept people of color as equal citizens.

So it was erected because the South refused to accept people of color.
Are there any older statues of Lee that have been left alone? What date were they built if so? And why were they built. Seems like you would really want a statue of Jefferson Davis, not Lee to cause real problems or to let your feelings be known. Lee could have ended up a Union general. Lee is not a good swastika or Hilter.

[RandomGuy]

most slaves were treated better then most kids in America
most treated them better then their kids
there were some bad slave owners though


Her time with Captain Ingham and his wife, her new owners, introduced her to deprivation and hardship. She was witness to the torture of children and the murder of another servant called Hetty, and had first-hand experience of the types of instruments used for flogging: 'To strip me naked – to hang me up by the wrists and lay my flesh open with the cow skin, was an ordinary punishment for even a slight offence.'

On one occasion she was tied to a ladder and given 100 lashes for accidentally breaking an already cracked vase. On another, she was struck in the back for allowing a cow to wander off – a blow that resulted in a lifelong injury.

Most children weren't tortured and murdered.

Oh wait, these children were. I guess that's ok. "it wasn't that bad".

[Pavlov]

That's not how Lincoln saw it when he reinstated their rights of citizenship. Any other dumb shit you got to say? You're on a roll; fuckin' it up on multiple threads.I already said Lee was lucky Lincoln was the most magnanimous President ever. There mere fact they had to be pardoned and amnestied proves they were traitors. Lee had to beg for it.

[RandomGuy]

most slaves were treated better then most kids in America
most treated them better then their kids
there were some bad slave owners though



which were exercised on my unhappy fellow slaves ... in Montserrat I have seen a Negro man staked to the ground, and cut most shockingly, and then his ears cut off bit by bit ... another Negro man was half hanged and then burnt for attempting to poison a cruel overseer.

Most children aren't staked to the ground in order to cut off pieces of their ears.

[RandomGuy]

most slaves were treated better then most kids in America
most treated them better then their kids
there were some bad slave owners though


The pain in my head had subsided in a measure, but I was very faint and weak. I was sitting upon a low bench, made of rough boards, and without coat or hat. I was hand cuffed. Around my ankles also were a pair of heavy fetters. One end of a chain was fastened to a large ring in the floor, the other to the fetters on my ankles. I tried in vain to stand upon my feet. Waking from such a painful trance, it was some time before I could collect my thoughts. Where was I? What was the meaning of these chains? Where were Brown and Hamilton? What had I done to deserve imprisonment in such a dungeon? I could not comprehend.

Most children weren't drugged and chained to the floor.

[Spurtacular]

I already said Lee was lucky Lincoln was the most magnanimous President ever. There mere fact they had to be pardoned and amnestied proves they were traitors. Lee had to beg for it.

The pardons prove that Lincoln's bull shit couldn't hold up under its own weight. If Lincoln had done anything to Lee, he would have went Obi Wan Kenobi on his ass.

[pgardn]

Exactly. Germany would never have erected a statue of a Nazi in 2004 because almost the entire population of Germany is rightfully ashamed of that chapter in its history.

The mindset in the South was much different in the early 20th Century when many of these monuments were being built. That's what those monuments represent: the stubborn refusal of the South to accept people of color as equal citizens.

Germany does not have a 1st amendment. They still have neonazis. I personally like the rats to come out of hiding. If 1/3 of the country still longs for slavery, I want to know this. If 1/3 of the country does not think people of color deserve rights, I need to know this. Trump has been an enlightener is this regard. He has allowed the anger to come forth.

Now we question why so angry. It's healthy IMO.

[RandomGuy]

most slaves were treated better then most kids in America
most treated them better then their kids
there were some bad slave owners though




During this time Radburn was standing silently by. His business was, to oversee this human, or rather inhuman stable, receiving slaves, feeding, and whipping them, at the rate of two shillings a head per day. Turning to him, Burch ordered the paddle and cat-o'-ninetails to be brought in. He disappeared, and in a few moments returned with these instruments of torture. The paddle, as it is termed in slave-beating parlance, or at least the one with which I first became acquainted, and of which I now speak, was a piece of hard-wood board, eighteen or twenty inches long, moulded to the shape of an old-fashioned pudding stick, or ordinary oar The flattened portion, which was about the size in circumference of two open hands, was bored with a small auger in numerous places. The cat was a large rope of many strands— the strands unraveled, and a knot tied at the extremity of each.

As soon as these formidable whips appeared, I was seized by both of them, and roughly divested of my clothing. My feet, as has been stated, were fastened to the floor. Drawing me over the bench, face downwards, Radburn placed his heavy foot upon the fetters, between my wrists, holding them painfully to the floor. With the paddle, Burch commenced beating me. Blow after blow was inflicted upon my naked body. When his unrelenting arm grew tired, he stopped and asked if I still insisted I was a free man. I did insist upon it, and then the blows were renewed, faster and more energetically, if possible, than before. When again tired, he would repeat the same question, and receiving the same answer, continue his cruel labor. All this time, the incarnate devil was uttering most fiendish oaths. At length the paddle broke, leaving the useless handle in his hand. Still I would not yield. All his brutal blows could not force from my lips the foul lie that I was a slave. Casting madly on the floor the handle of the broken paddle, he seized the rope. This was far more painful than the other. I struggled with all my power, but it was in vain. I prayed for mercy, but my prayer was only answered with imprecations and with stripes. I thought I must die beneath the lashes of the accursed brute. Even now the flesh crawls upon my bones, as I recall the scene. I was all on fire. My sufferings I can compare to nothing else than the burning agonies of hell!


Most children weren't kidnapped.

Most children didn't have paddles broken over their backs when they insisted to be let go.

Most children weren't whipped with ropes when they insisted to be let go.

[RandomGuy]

At last I became silent to his repeated questions. I would make no reply. In fact, I was becoming almost unable to speak. Still he plied the lash without stint upon my poor body, until it seemed that the lacerated flesh was stripped from my bones at every stroke. A man with a particle of mercy in his soul would not have beaten even a dog so cruelly.

[SpursforSix]

Germany does not have a 1st amendment. They still have neonazis. I personally like the rats to come out of hiding. If 1/3 of the country still longs for slavery, I want to know this. If 1/3 of the country does not think people of color deserve rights, I need to know this. Trump has been an enlightener is this regard. He has allowed the anger to come forth.

Now we question why so angry. It's healthy IMO.

No one thinks this. Problem is that now everyone believes every account that they can find on the web.
I'd only point to Bernstain Bears to show that not everything you read can be believed and that history can be changed.

[tlongII]

Wow. Defending slavery, an institution that promoted rape, murder, and torture on a massive, industrial scale. "it wasn't that bad"

A new low.

No wonder you support Trump.

A non sequitur, in formal logic, is an invalid argument. In a non sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false, but the argument nonetheless asserts the conclusion to be true and is thus fallacious.

[Pavlov]

The pardons prove that Lincoln's bull shit couldn't hold up under its own weight. If Lincoln had done anything to Lee, he would have went Obi Wan Kenobi on his ass.Lincoln neither pardoned nor amnestied Lee.

:lmao Kenobi

Are you 12?

[RandomGuy]

most slaves were treated better then most kids in America
most treated them better then their kids
there were some bad slave owners though



The day she was led into the pen, Brooks had brought her from the estate into the city, under pretence that the time had come when her free papers were to be executed, in fulfillment of her master's promise. Elated at the prospect of immediate liberty, she decked herself and little Emmy in their best apparel, and accompanied him with a joyful heart. On their arrival in the city, instead of being baptized into the family of freemen, she was delivered to the trader Burch. The paper that was executed was a bill of sale. The hope of years was blasted in a moment. From the hight of most exulting happiness to the utmost depths of wretchedness, she had that day descended. No wonder that she wept, and filled the pen with wailings and expressions of heart-rending woe.

Most children weren't promised to be freed, then sold, knowing their own children would be subject to the same cruelties.

[RandomGuy]

A non sequitur, in formal logic, is an invalid argument. In a non sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false, but the argument nonetheless asserts the conclusion to be true and is thus fallacious.

(facepalm)

You really suck at this. It is encouraging to see you try though.

Do you think slavery was a bad thing?

[RandomGuy]

most slaves were treated better then most kids in America
most treated them better then their kids
there were some bad slave owners though


I doubt not he understood then better than I did, the danger and the penalty of selling a free man into slavery. He felt the necessity of closing my mouth against the crime he knew he was committing. Of course, my life would not have weighed a feather, in any emergency requiring such a sacrifice. Undoubtedly, he meant precisely what he said.

Most children couldn't have been murdered with impunity to keep them quiet.

[AaronY]

:cry muh statues :cry

:cry they were all that I had left :cry

[Pavlov]

The pardons prove that Lincoln's bull shit couldn't hold up under its own weight. If Lincoln had done anything to Lee, he would have went Obi Wan Kenobi on his ass.Lincoln confiscated Lee's home and took away his vote.

What did Lee do about it? Did he go Obi-Wan Kenobi on his ass?

[SpursforSix]

Most children weren't promised to be freed, then sold, knowing their own children would be subject to the same cruelties.

You keep quoting Solomon Northrup. I doubt you read the book. Regardless, there are plenty of online reports that say that he grossly exaggerated the situation.
I'm not advocating slavery but for you to quote something you probably found only on the internet as fact does not make it factual.

[RandomGuy]

Seems to me, that slavery is simply evil. Even if the bible says its ok.

If you own slaves, you are evil.

By that rather simple calculus, all slave owners were evil.

How evil... is another matter.

Given how easy it was to find first-hand accounts of torture, murder, and cruelty, it would seem that "some" slaveowners were very evil indeed. "many" would probably be a better word.

If you want to rationalize this evil, that is on you.

[Spurtacular]

Exactly. Germany would never have erected a statue of a Nazi in 2004 because almost the entire population of Germany is rightfully ashamed of that chapter in its history.

The mindset in the South was much different in the early 20th Century when many of these monuments were being built. That's what those monuments represent: the stubborn refusal of the South to accept people of color as equal citizens.

Most Germans are in a state of bliss, just like they were in the 1930's. That's how it works in that fascist swamp. As long as the beer is flowing and the gears are turning, nothing to worry about.

[Spurtacular]

Lincoln confiscated Lee's home and took away his vote.

What did Lee do about it? Did he go Obi-Wan Kenobi on his ass?

Well, seeing as how Lincoln ended up stone-cold dead, what did he need to do that supporters weren't going to do for him?

[RandomGuy]

You keep quoting Solomon Northrup. I doubt you read the book. Regardless, there are plenty of online reports that say that he grossly exaggerated the situation.
I'm not advocating slavery but for you to quote something you probably found only on the internet as fact does not make it factual.

http://www.slaverystories.org/solomon-northup/4

Book is easily available online.

"Plenty" of people online think the moon landings were faked.

Feel free to provide any evidence you have that Mr. Northrup made anything up.

If you prefer, I can provide other accounts, all of which seem to paint a fairly consistent picture of murder, torture, and rape.

Are they all making it up?

[DarrinS]

Seems to me, that slavery is simply evil. Even if the bible says its ok.

If you own slaves, you are evil.

By that rather simple calculus, all slave owners were evil.

How evil... is another matter.

Given how easy it was to find first-hand accounts of torture, murder, and cruelty, it would seem that "some" slaveowners were very evil indeed. "many" would probably be a better word.

If you want to rationalize this evil, that is on you.



Should this be taken down?

http://www.atsushistory.osteachers.com/assignments/99-washington/student-work/2a/team22A/WTrip_team22A/Jefferson%20Memorial%203.jpg

[Pavlov]

Well, seeing as how Lincoln ended up stone-cold dead, what did he need to do that supporters weren't going to do for him?So Lee did nothing to Lincoln and begged the next President for his citizenship back. :lol

Your glee at Lincoln's assassination is duly noted.

[Pavlov]

Should this be taken down?

http://www.atsushistory.osteachers.com/assignments/99-washington/student-work/2a/team22A/WTrip_team22A/Jefferson%20Memorial%203.jpgThat dude loved his slaves.

[SpursforSix]

http://www.slaverystories.org/solomon-northup/4

Book is easily available online.

"Plenty" of people online think the moon landings were faked.

Feel free to provide any evidence you have that Mr. Northrup made anything up.

If you prefer, I can provide other accounts, all of which seem to paint a fairly consistent picture of murder, torture, and rape.

Are they all making it up?

I don't know tbh. You just keep quoting the same source. Do I think that slavery happened and was atrocious? Yes. But so far, you've provided one source and assumed it happened across the board. And also assuming that the author did not have some bias in writing his account.

[RandomGuy]

You keep quoting Solomon Northrup. I doubt you read the book. Regardless, there are plenty of online reports that say that he grossly exaggerated the situation.
I'm not advocating slavery but for you to quote something you probably found only on the internet as fact does not make it factual.

Northrup was one of the better first-hand accounts, simply because he could read and write. Most couldn't, so their stories are long lost.

At some point, many such stories were collected, while the subjects were still alive, circa 1936.

https://www.loc.gov/collections/slave-narratives-from-the-federal-writers-project-1936-to-1938/about-this-collection/

This material all seem to dovetail.

Both contemporary accounts at the time, as well as stories told decades later.

While one might be able to discount one, or two stories, as a body it paints a very coherent picture.

[Spurtacular]

So Lee did nothing to Lincoln and begged the next President for his citizenship back. :lol

Your glee at Lincoln's assassination is duly noted.

Yea, I didn't take the kool aid from our public indoctrination factories about Lincoln like you presumably did. In truth, I hold Lincoln in some regard. But he should have respected the Constitution and allowed the states to secede. That millions spilled their blood for his ulterior designs, he earned his red pill.

[DarrinS]

That dude loved his slaves.

:lol Literally

[SpursforSix]

Northrup was one of the better first-hand accounts, simply because he could read and write. Most couldn't, so their stories are long lost.

At some point, many such stories were collected, while the subjects were still alive, circa 1936.

https://www.loc.gov/collections/slave-narratives-from-the-federal-writers-project-1936-to-1938/about-this-collection/

This material all seem to dovetail.

Both contemporary accounts at the time, as well as stories told decades later.

While one might be able to discount one, or two stories, as a body it paints a very coherent picture.

Did you read all of those? Be honest?

[Pavlov]

Yea, I didn't take the kool aid from our public indoctrination factories about Lincoln like you presumably did. In truth, I hold Lincoln in some regard. But he should have respected the Constitution and allowed the states to secede. That millions spilled their blood for his ulterior designs, he earned his red pill.:lmao kool aid
:lmao some regard
:lmao respect secessi:cryn
:lmao red pill

How many tiki torches are in your possession?

[RandomGuy]

you've provided one source and assumed it happened across the board.

No, not really. I have been lazy, and simply posted multiple passages from his account, because it was easy to find, clear and concise.

Hard to transcribe thousands of pages of scanned manuscripts though.

Don't take my word for any of it. Go find it yourself. It is there.

Unless one is a stupid shit like ducks who can't be bothered with reading uncomfortable things, and prefers reality in a bubble.

[SpursforSix]

No, not really. I have been lazy, and simply posted multiple passages from his account, because it was easy to find, clear and concise.

Hard to transcribe thousands of pages of scanned manuscripts though.

Don't take my word for any of it. Go find it yourself. It is there.

Unless one is a stupid shit like ducks who can't be bothered with reading uncomfortable things, and prefers reality in a bubble.

Fair enough. Thanks for being honest.

[Spurtacular]

:lmao kool aid
:lmao some regard
:lmao respect secessi:cryn
:lmao red pill

How many tiki torches are in your possession?

Where in the Constitution does it say that states don't have the right to secede? They even put states in the name of the country; that's how important states rights were at this nation's outset.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

the victors write history?

Pretty much.

[RandomGuy]

Did you read all of those? Be honest?

Nope. Not even close. Been thumbing through some of them though.

To be clear:

Not all slaves were tortured. Many had modestly mundane lives.

https://www.loc.gov/resource/mesn.080/?sp=15

Reading through this one at the moment. Volume 8, Brooks-Williams.

Do I have to read everything, to be able to remark on what others who study it have concluded?

(edit)

Fascinating stuff. I like first hand accounts, always compelling. Also interesting is the typos that are just struck over using the old-school manual typewriters. Marvelous machines for their time.

[Spurtacular]

So Lee did nothing to Lincoln and begged the next President for his citizenship back.

1. Like a typical liberal moron, you capitalize president as if it's a deity.
2. Go ahead and cite this begging. It is not in line with accounts of Lee's character whatsoever.

[DMC]

Where in the Constitution does it say that states don't have the right to secede? They even put states in the name of the country; that's how important states rights were at this nation's outset.

When a state secedes, the constitution is irrelevant.

[tlongII]

(facepalm)

You really suck at this. It is encouraging to see you try though.

Do you think slavery was a bad thing?

What is the appropriate response? Oh I think I know...


DUH!

[Pavlov]

Where in the Constitution does it say that states don't have the right to secede? They even put states in the name of the country; that's how important states rights were at this nation's outset.A Constitutional body -- the Supreme Court -- ruled states do not have the right to unilaterally secede.

The States' Rights argument was pretty much all about slavery anyway. Had to write slavery into the Constitution because those dudes from the slave states were such bitches.

[DMC]

Yea, I didn't take the kool aid from our public indoctrination factories about Lincoln like you presumably did. In truth, I hold Lincoln in some regard. But he should have respected the Constitution and allowed the states to secede. That millions spilled their blood for his ulterior designs, he earned his red pill.

I have a letter from Lincoln, has some blood on it. Ends with him saying Mary Todd is waiting for him.

[Spurtacular]

When a state secedes, the constitution is irrelevant.

Okay, so states have the right to secede; at least I would say they did, then.

[Spurtacular]

A Constitutional body -- the Supreme Court -- ruled states do not have the right to unilaterally secede.

The States' Rights argument was pretty much all about slavery anyway. Had to write slavery into the Constitution because those dudes from the slave states were such bitches.

The Supreme Court makes up shit all the time. The Constitution was written plainly so that all of us could understand our rights. And in the grand document, it says that all right not expressly granted to the federal government are in fact given to the states. The states assuredly acted within the spirit and letter of the supreme law of the land. Again, Lincoln earned his red pill.

[Spurtacular]

I have a letter from Lincoln, has some blood on it. Ends with him saying Mary Todd is waiting for him.

Sounds like you're making shit up again.

[Pavlov]

1. Like a typical liberal moron, you capitalize president as if it's a deity.I thought it was proper grammar when talking about the US President tbh.

2. Go ahead and cite this begging. It is not in line with accounts of Lee's character whatsoever.Here's the oath he had to sign for the begging:

https://www.archives.gov/files/publications/prologue/2005/spring/images/lee-amnesty-l.jpg

And he still didn't get his citizenship restored until 1975. :lol Kenobi

[Spurminator]

Are you fucking retarded, or do you just play one on the internet.

Nope. You?

Let me try this again for the reading-challenged.


R. Lee freed his father's slaves when he came of age. He once wrote a letter in regards to the institution of slavery, saying, "slavery as an institution, is a moral and political evil in any country."


His loyalty to the state he happened to live in was stronger than his opposition to slavery. How respectable.

[RandomGuy]

Do you think slavery was a bad thing?


What is the appropriate response? Oh I think I know...


DUH!

That puts you a leg up on ducks. Seems pretty straightforward to me too.

I never get the rationalizing people want to do about evil things.

[Pavlov]

The Supreme Court makes up shit all the time.:lmao more conspiracies.
The Constitution was written plainly so that all of us could understand our rights.Well, so white male property owners could understand their rights.

But the Constitution (are you deifying it with capitalization?) made the Supreme Court, so I guess the founders just wanted to be able to make shit up all the time.

[RandomGuy]

The Supreme Court makes up shit all the time. The Constitution was written plainly so that all of us could understand our rights. And in the grand document, it says that all right not expressly granted to the federal government are in fact given to the states. The states assuredly acted within the spirit and letter of the supreme law of the land. Again, Lincoln earned his red pill.

So you like the Constitution, until the Supreme Court rules on it in a way you don't like, then the Constitution sucks because it made the Supreme Court the authority on what was Constitutional.

Got it.

(facepalm)

[Spurtacular]

I thought it was proper grammar when talking about the US President tbh.
Here's the oath he had to sign for the begging:

https://www.archives.gov/files/publications/prologue/2005/spring/images/lee-amnesty-l.jpg

And he still didn't get his citizenship restored until 1975. :lol Kenobi

Well, it's not unless you are referring to the person with his proper title in front of his name. Much like you'd capitalize the word doctor in front of someone's name and not otherwise.

That's a window dressing document, dude. He didn't even have to admit he did anything wrong; probably cos he would've told them to shove such a document up Lincoln's ass.

[Spurminator]

So it was erected because the South refused to accept people of color.
Are there any older statues of Lee that have been left alone? What date were they built if so? And why were they built. Seems like you would really want a statue of Jefferson Davis, not Lee to cause real problems or to let your feelings be known. Lee could have ended up a Union general. Lee is not a good swastika or Hilter.

I don't have a comprehensive history of all Confederate monuments ever built. This one, the one that became a rallying cry for racists all over the country, was built in 1924.

[Spurtacular]

So you like the Constitution, until the Supreme Court rules on it in a way you don't like, then the Constitution sucks because it made the Supreme Court the authority on what was Constitutional.

Got it.

(facepalm)

The Supreme Court is a political entity just like any other. I don't worship at their altar. If you doubt that, then you are supremely ignorant.

[RandomGuy]

I think it however a greater evil to the white man than to the black race, & while my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more strong for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild & melting influence of Christianity, than the storms & tempests of fiery Controversy.



The argument here is that slavery is bad for white people, good for black people, and most importantly, it is better than abolitionism; emancipation must wait for divine intervention. That black people might not want to be slaves does not enter into the equation; their opinion on the subject of their own bondage is not even an afterthought to Lee.

[RandomGuy]

Lee’s heavy hand on the Arlington plantation, Pryor writes, nearly led to a slave revolt, in part because the enslaved had been expected to be freed upon their previous master’s death, and Lee had engaged in a dubious legal interpretation of his will in order to keep them as his property, one that lasted until a Virginia court forced him to free them.

When two of his slaves escaped and were recaptured, Lee either beat them himself or ordered the overseer to "lay it on well." Wesley Norris, one of the slaves who was whipped, recalled that “not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kindly-general-lee/529038/

Meh.

He lied to keep people his property, and whipped them when he thought it necessary to keep them productive and compliant. How noble.

[RandomGuy]

During his invasion of Pennsylvania, Lee’s Army of Northern Virginia enslaved free blacks and brought them back to the South as property. Pryor writes that “evidence links virtually every infantry and cavalry unit in Lee’s army” with the abduction of free black Americans, “with the activity under the supervision of senior officers.”

Soldiers under Lee’s command at the Battle of the Crater in 1864 massacred black Union soldiers who tried to surrender. Then, in a spectacle hatched by Lee’s senior corps commander A.P. Hill, the Confederates paraded the Union survivors through the streets of Petersburg to the slurs and jeers of the southern crowd. Lee never discouraged such behavior. As the historian Richard Slotkin wrote in No Quarter: The Battle of the Crater, “his silence was permissive.”


Lee hated slavery so much, he allowed the soldiers under his command to kidnap black people when his armies marched north.

[RandomGuy]

Nor did Lee’s defeat lead to an embrace of racial egalitarianism. The war was not about slavery, Lee insisted later, but if it was about slavery, it was only out of Christian devotion that white southerners fought to keep blacks enslaved. Lee told a New York Herald reporter, in the midst of arguing in favor of somehow removing blacks from the South (“disposed of,” in his words), “that unless some humane course is adopted, based on wisdom and Christian principles you do a gross wrong and injustice to the whole negro race in setting them free. And it is only this consideration that has led the wisdom, intelligence and Christianity of the South to support and defend the institution up to this time.”

How Christian. Keep the negroes in line for their own good.

Very convenient for an ex-slave holder. It's almost as if he were... rationalizing evil.

[Pavlov]

Well, it's not unless you are referring to the person with his proper title in front of his name. Much like you'd capitalize the word doctor in front of someone's name and not otherwise.Well there you go. I certainly wouldn't deify the current president. He's a dipshit.


That's a window dressing document, dude. He didn't even have to admit he did anything wrong; probably cos he would've told them to shove such a document up Lincoln's ass.Accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt.

[Spurtacular]

Well there you go. I certainly wouldn't deify the current president. He's a dipshit.

Accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt.

It's not though.

[Pavlov]

It's not though.Yep. Sorry. It happens when you're a traitor.

[Spurtacular]

Yep. Sorry. It happens when you're a traitor.

Accepting a pardon is nothing more than acknowledging a reset. Lee followed the Constitution and was loyal to his state.

[SpursforSix]

Nope. Not even close. Been thumbing through some of them though.

To be clear:

Not all slaves were tortured. Many had modestly mundane lives.

https://www.loc.gov/resource/mesn.080/?sp=15

Reading through this one at the moment. Volume 8, Brooks-Williams.

Do I have to read everything, to be able to remark on what others who study it have concluded?

(edit)

Fascinating stuff. I like first hand accounts, always compelling. Also interesting is the typos that are just struck over using the old-school manual typewriters. Marvelous machines for their time.

Again, slavery was egregious enough on its own. But I would say that anyone writing an account (on any subject really) is going to be writing the account to make a point. Again, I don't disagree that there were some terrible atrocities above and beyond keeping someone as a slave. However, I don't believe that you're seeing a correct proportion of accounts as to what really happened. Of course we have no way of knowing that.

All that being said, it's too easy to read some accounts online and purport to be an expert on any subject.

[Pavlov]

Accepting a pardon is nothing more than acknowledging a reset. Lee followed the Constitution and was loyal to his state.lol no. He was a traitor and begged for amnesty. You don't pardon people who did nothing wrong.

[Spurtacular]

lol no. He was a traitor and begged for amnesty. You don't pardon people who did nothing wrong.

Cite the alleged begging or it didn't happen. Or was that wishy washy document "begging" in your ephemeral mind's eye?

Pardoning can be done for any reason, tbh. There is zero guidelines on them. So, your point is retarded.

[Spurtacular]

Again, slavery was egregious enough on its own. But I would say that anyone writing an account (on any subject really) is going to be writing the account to make a point. Again, I don't disagree that there were some terrible atrocities above and beyond keeping someone as a slave. However, I don't believe that you're seeing a correct proportion of accounts as to what really happened. Of course we have no way of knowing that.

All that being said, it's too easy to read some accounts online and purport to be an expert on any subject.

Many of these morons don't even understand the American institution of slavery. Many were slaves in name only and actually making relatively solid wages given their station. None of this is to say that shit wasn't fucked up; but these snowflakes just don't know their shit. There's a reason why almost no emancipated slaves went back to Africa or elsewhere.

[Pavlov]

Cite the alleged begging or it didn't happen. Or was that wishy washy document "begging" in your ephemeral mind's eye?Wishy washy? Dude had to take an oath and still didn't get his citizenship back.


Pardoning can be done for any reason, tbh. There is zero guidelines on them. So, your point is retarded.Show me a pardon done for any reason other than someone's committing a crime.

Turkeys don't count.

[Spurtacular]

Wishy washy? Dude had to take an oath and still didn't get his citizenship back.

Show me a pardon done for any reason other than someone's committing a crime.

Turkeys don't count.

That oath was standard for everyone in his position; or did they all get on their knees and gravel?

Well, Nixon likely committed crimes, but Ford stated that his pardon was for other reasons. Pardons can be given simply to protect one against foreseen harassment by authorities, though no politician would be likely to say so outright. That the president was given such an awesome unilateral authority says something about the founders' belief that systems and unjust judges could railroad people, imo.

[Pavlov]

That oath was standard for everyone in his position; or did they all get on their knees and gravel? Begging is begging.


Well, Nixon likely committed crimes, but Ford stated that his pardon was for other reasons. Pardons can be given simply to protect one against foreseen harassment by authorities, though no politician would be likely to say so outright. That the president was given such an awesome unilateral authority says something about the founders belief that systems and unjust judges could railroad people, imo.Show me a pardon done for any reason other than someone's committing a crime.

[Spurtacular]

Begging is begging.

Show me a pardon done for any reason other than someone's committing a crime.

And making shit up is making shit up. Which is what you've been caught doing.

Pardons are done to give one a clean slate regardless of what spin you want to put on it. Bringing it back to what we were talking about, that Lincoln pardoned Lee shows just how weak he was and how much even he couldn't deny he overstepped.

[Spurminator]

Bringing it back to what we were talking about, that Lincoln pardoned Lee shows just how weak he was and how much even he couldn't deny he overstepped.

:lol Overstepped?

Lincoln needed Lee to help heal wounds between the Union and the Confederacy. Lee, in exchange for pardon, was a mascot that the Union could use to appeal to the South and minimize further fighting in the wake of their defeat.

[SpursforSix]

It's "grovel", not "gravel".

[Spurtacular]

:lol Overstepped?

Lincoln needed Lee to help heal wounds between the Union and the Confederacy. Lee, in exchange for pardon, was a mascot that the Union could use to appeal to the South and minimize further fighting in the wake of their defeat.

He did need Lee. But if his cause was so fucking righteous at the end of the day, he wouldn't have pardoned him in a million years all the same.

[Spurtacular]

It's "grovel", not "gravel".

I knew that was off; ty.

[Pavlov]

And making shit up is making shit up. Which is what you've been caught doing.

Pardons are done to give one a clean slate regardless of what spin you want to put on it. Bringing it back to what we were talking about, that Lincoln pardoned Lee shows just how weak he was and how much even he couldn't deny he overstepped.Show me a pardon done for any reason other than someone's committing a crime.

[SpursforSix]

I knew that was off; ty.

It actually makes sort of sense. Sort of.

[Spurtacular]

Show me a pardon done for any reason other than someone's committing a crime.

How about the case we're talking about. Lincoln knew that Lee committed no real crime. He served a properly seceded state. Again, the pardon makes Lincoln look like the chicken shit commander that he was.

[SpursforSix]

Show me a pardon done for any reason other than someone's committing a crime.

achoo

[Spurminator]

He did need Lee. But if his cause was so fucking righteous at the end of the day, he wouldn't have pardoned him in a million years all the same.

I don't see why not. Even in the 19th Century, justice wasn't black and white. It was obviously better to make an example of him of how Southerners could embrace the change than to make an example of him as a martyr.

[RandomGuy]

Again, slavery was egregious enough on its own. But I would say that anyone writing an account (on any subject really) is going to be writing the account to make a point. Again, I don't disagree that there were some terrible atrocities above and beyond keeping someone as a slave. However, I don't believe that you're seeing a correct proportion of accounts as to what really happened. Of course we have no way of knowing that.

All that being said, it's too easy to read some accounts online and purport to be an expert on any subject.

I am not really an expert in slavery. I will say that there are enough accounts of atrocities to say that the institution encouraged other evil.

I have read some books, seen some movies. That is about it.

All that said:

Owning people is wrong. Do I really need to add in the extra about murder, torture, and rape to prove that point?

[Spurtacular]

I don't see why not. Even in the 19th Century, justice wasn't black and white. It was obviously better to make an example of him of how Southerners could embrace the change than to make an example of him as a martyr.

I agree. But if he was a traitor in the true sense of the word, Lincoln still would have came down on him and all the leaders with an iron fist. The reality is that Lee was in the right though. Lincoln had not wanted to be the president that presided over the division of the nation. He saw an opportunity for personal glory and he took it. It was never about "justice" against Lee in that regard. He knew Lee had made an honorable choice.

[Pavlov]

How about the case we're talking about. Lincoln knew that Lee committed no real crime. He served a properly seceded state. Again, the pardon makes Lincoln look like the chicken shit commander that he was.Nope. Treason is indeed a crime and secession is illegal.

[Pavlov]

I agree. But if he was a traitor in the true sense of the word, Lincoln still would have came down on him and all the leaders with an iron fist. The reality is that Lee was in the right though. Lincoln had not wanted to be the president that presided over the division of the nation. He saw an opportunity for personal glory and he took it. It was never about "justice" against Lee in that regard. He knew Lee had made an honorable choice.:lmao Personal glory.

Lee was a traitor.

[Spurtacular]

I am not really an expert in slavery. I will say that there are enough accounts of atrocities to say that the institution encouraged other evil.

I have read some books, seen some movies. That is about it.

All that said:

Owning people is wrong. Do I really need to add in the extra about murder, torture, and rape to prove that point?

I read a book on it some months back. IIRC, it was actually only a small minority of Southerners who owned slaves by the time of the civil war (not saying the aggregate was not large). Most southerners no longer were personally for the institution. It was actually the heinous actions of many abolitionists that often galvanized Northern Republicans and Southern Democrats alike though to not end it sooner. And in truth, the institution was due to collapse under its own weight, war or no war. Part of the problem with not doing it sooner was the worry of an unruly class, which Thomas Jefferson had predicted if not done. Which is why he had presented a plan at one point to give all blacks their freedom by 1820. And in truth, TJ and Lincoln had pragmatic idea on this; and in truth both actually abhorred blacks as a race. It's kind of funny given how many want to exalt them. A guy like George Washington seemed to actually see blacks in more humane terms from what I've found in my readings. But he knew that their emancipation was a matter for future generations given the vulnerabilities of a fledgling nation.

[Pavlov]

I read a book on it some months back. IIRC, it was actually only a small minority of Southerners who owned slaves by the time of the civil war (not saying the aggregate was not large). Most southerners no longer were personally for the institution. It was actually the heinous actions of many abolitionists that often galvanized Northern Republicans and Southern Democrats alike though to not end it sooner. And in truth, the institution was due to collapse under its own weight, war or no war. Part of the problem with not doing it sooner was the worry of an unruly class, which Thomas Jefferson had predicted if not done. Which is why he had presented a plan at one point to give all blacks their freedom by 1820. And in truth, TJ and Lincoln had pragmatic idea on this; and in truth both actually abhorred blacks as a race. It's kind of funny given how many want to exalt them. A guy like George Washington seemed to actually see blacks in more humane terms from what I've found in my readings. But he knew that their emancipation was a matter for future generations given the vulnerabilities of a fledgling nation.What was the name of this book?

[Spurtacular]

:lmao Personal glory.

Lee was a traitor.

Do you even know what Lincoln's personal views of blacks were?

Also, the facts speak for themselves about Lee. I'm guessing you want to defy them because it's just easy to demonize him for the sake of your liberal agenda.

[Spurtacular]

What was the name of this book?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1470897466/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Spurtacular]

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1470897466/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

BTW, $9 after shipping is a great deal. I paid f'ing $29. If I had known the price was going to drop that drastically, I would have held off and read something else on the list.

[cd021]

the lee statues and memorials are less about honoring lee and more about white america marking their territory against a growing free black population.

Yep tbh.

[DarrinS]

the lee statues and memorials are less about honoring lee and more about white america marking their territory against a growing free black population.

What are the Union memorials and statues for?

[SpursforSix]

I am not really an expert in slavery. I will say that there are enough accounts of atrocities to say that the institution encouraged other evil.

I have read some books, seen some movies. That is about it.

All that said:

Owning people is wrong. Do I really need to add in the extra about murder, torture, and rape to prove that point?

Correct : owning people is wrong

But murder, torture, and rape, is on a different level. It seems fairly logical that those who experienced or saw the most atrocities would be the ones that wrote about it. Or the ones whose writings are still published today.
So the fact that you've predominantly read mostly stores of rape/murder/torture certainly doesn't mean that it was the norm.

[SpursforSix]

And ya'll niggas act like shit can't be changed. I swear it was "Bernstein" Bears.

[Pavlov]

Do you even know what Lincoln's personal views of blacks were? Yep. Doesn't make Lee less a traitor.


Also, the facts speak for themselves about Lee. I'm guessing you want to defy them because it's just easy to demonize him for the sake of your liberal agenda.The facts speak for themselves. Lee was a traitor.

[Spurtacular]

Yep. Doesn't make Lee less a traitor.

The facts speak for themselves. Lee was a traitor.

Apparently, Lincoln disagreed or he wouldn't have pardoned him. Real traitors are hanged, dude.

[Pavlov]

Apparently, Lincoln disagreed or he wouldn't have pardoned him. Real traitors are hanged, dude.Actually, he pardoned him because he was a traitor. If he wasn't a traitor, no need to pardon.

[Pavlov]

I read a book on it some months back. IIRC, it was actually only a small minority of Southerners who owned slaves by the time of the civil war (not saying the aggregate was not large). Most southerners no longer were personally for the institution. It was actually the heinous actions of many abolitionists that often galvanized Northern Republicans and Southern Democrats alike though to not end it sooner. And in truth, the institution was due to collapse under its own weight, war or no war. Part of the problem with not doing it sooner was the worry of an unruly class, which Thomas Jefferson had predicted if not done. Which is why he had presented a plan at one point to give all blacks their freedom by 1820. And in truth, TJ and Lincoln had pragmatic idea on this; and in truth both actually abhorred blacks as a race. It's kind of funny given how many want to exalt them. A guy like George Washington seemed to actually see blacks in more humane terms from what I've found in my readings. But he knew that their emancipation was a matter for future generations given the vulnerabilities of a fledgling nation.So they were all afraid of blacks they had enslaved?

Wow.

Groundbreaking stuff there.

[Spurtacular]

So they were all afraid of blacks they had enslaved?

Wow.

Groundbreaking stuff there.

I wouldn't say they were any more afraid than people like Hillary are of those "super predators" today are. They saw the big box of fuck that would be opened. They weren't wrong. Check the crime stats, brah.

[Big Empty]

screw the confederate

[Adam Lambert]

What are the Union memorials and statues for?

could be a lot of different reasons for any union memorial to be erected, none of which are to say "fuck you, n-gger, this is still a white nation."

[RandomGuy]

Correct : owning people is wrong

But murder, torture, and rape, is on a different level. It seems fairly logical that those who experienced or saw the most atrocities would be the ones that wrote about it. Or the ones whose writings are still published today.
So the fact that you've predominantly read mostly stores of rape/murder/torture certainly doesn't mean that it was the norm.

I agree. The people most motivated to tell stories would be the ones who experienced the most horrible things. It is a very clear case of biased sample.

That said, there are enough stories, and enough corroborating evidence to confirm: Bad shit happened, and American southern slavery made that possible.

The Confederacy, as the institution charged with defending that abomination, deserved to be crushed. The people involved should have be ashamed of their actions, and their decendents should stop honoring them. They died for a shit cause, waged stupidly by rationalizing elitist pricks.

[Pavlov]

I wouldn't say they were any more afraid than people like Hillary are of those "super predators" today are. They saw the big box of fuck that would be opened. They weren't wrong. Check the crime stats, brah.:lol brah

Whitey continued to discriminate against blacks to this very day. They played no small part in keeping them down.

[RandomGuy]

I read a book on it some months back. IIRC, it was actually only a small minority of Southerners who owned slaves by the time of the civil war (not saying the aggregate was not large). Most southerners no longer were personally for the institution. It was actually the heinous actions of many abolitionists that often galvanized Northern Republicans and Southern Democrats alike though to not end it sooner. And in truth, the institution was due to collapse under its own weight, war or no war. Part of the problem with not doing it sooner was the worry of an unruly class, which Thomas Jefferson had predicted if not done. Which is why he had presented a plan at one point to give all blacks their freedom by 1820. And in truth, TJ and Lincoln had pragmatic idea on this; and in truth both actually abhorred blacks as a race. It's kind of funny given how many want to exalt them. A guy like George Washington seemed to actually see blacks in more humane terms from what I've found in my readings. But he knew that their emancipation was a matter for future generations given the vulnerabilities of a fledgling nation.

I'm not sure what evidence would support:
"Most southerners no longer were personally for the institution."

Without modern polling or scientific sampling, you would need to cite an awful lot of evidence to be able to make the case for this.

And saying that "It was actually the heinous actions of many abolitionists that often galvanized Northern Republicans and Southern Democrats alike though to not end it sooner."

Seems to say that "were it not for people who really really objected to slavery, it would have ended sooner", as if the ONLY reason it extended out was abolitionist actions, and no small part because of southern aristocracy not wanting to give up their peculiar institution?

Southern whites didn't want to keep "the negroes" on the plantations, and away from their jobs?

Seems like a waaaay too simplistic view of a complex thing to me.

[DMC]

Okay, so states have the right to secede; at least I would say they did, then.

The right? When you're voiding your contract, and the contract is only between two entities (no law involved), there is no "right". Do you mean the US wouldn't resist or retaliate? "Right" has little to do with that.

[pgardn]

I don't have a comprehensive history of all Confederate monuments ever built. This one, the one that became a rallying cry for racists all over the country, was built in 1924.

So it was built as an "in your face, I'm for slavery monument".
Thats just trying to incite if so.

[pgardn]

achoo

God bless you and America.
And the Bernstein Bears.

[Spurtacular]

:lol brah

Whitey continued to discriminate against blacks to this very day. They played no small part in keeping them down.

Whites get discriminated against more than blacks, dude. We just got done having an affirmative action president for fuck's sake.

[Adam Lambert]

Whites get discriminated against more than blacks, dude.

aaaaand retardation confirmed.

[Spurtacular]

I'm not sure what evidence would support:
"Most southerners no longer were personally for the institution."

Without modern polling or scientific sampling, you would need to cite an awful lot of evidence to be able to make the case for this.

And saying that "It was actually the heinous actions of many abolitionists that often galvanized Northern Republicans and Southern Democrats alike though to not end it sooner."

Seems to say that "were it not for people who really really objected to slavery, it would have ended sooner", as if the ONLY reason it extended out was abolitionist actions, and no small part because of southern aristocracy not wanting to give up their peculiar institution?

Southern whites didn't want to keep "the negroes" on the plantations, and away from their jobs?

Seems like a waaaay too simplistic view of a complex thing to me.

I overstated it, maybe. But the point I was trying to make is that many Southerners didn't revere slavery whatsoever. It's sort of became folklore that the South romanticized the value of having slaves. In truth, only a plutocracy of plantation owners held up the institution of slavery. That's why when certain markets crashed, slavery was due to crash too.

Many Southern whites who were not plantation owners were in abject poverty and having potential wages undercut by the peculiar institution. I agree that it's not an issue to oversimplify; it's been months since I read on this, and I don't remember all the factors precisely. I would highly recommend the book I posted on audio CD for under $10 currently on Amazon if you find yourself interested in this.

[Spurtacular]

aaaaand retardation confirmed.

When was the last white you heard about who got a job or got into school because of affirmative action? You're "retardation" is absolute.

[Adam Lambert]

When was the last white you heard about who got a job or got into school because of affirmative action? You're "retardation" is absolute.

when was the last time you heard about one? be specific.

[Spurtacular]

The right? When you're voiding your contract, and the contract is only between two entities (no law involved), there is no "right". Do you mean the US wouldn't resist or retaliate? "Right" has little to do with that.

United States. They kept states in the name because the culture of states rights and soveigrnty was undeniable.

And as it is, the contract is quite clear. All rights not expressly given to the federal government are granted to the states. They were within their rights; and in fact, you can find plenty of examples of states threatening to secede in the 70 years leading to the civil war. There should've been no bloodshed for states doing what was in their right. Lincoln was no hero. He was just a guy who didn't want historians to paint him as the guy who lost half an empire.

[ducks]

Meanwhile: 39 shootings in Chicago this weekend, 9 deaths. No national media outrage. Why is that?

[Adam Lambert]

Meanwhile: 39 shootings in Chicago this weekend, 9 deaths. No national media outrage. Why is that?


lol plagiarizing an alt reich cuck

897107711434915842

lol cucks

[Spurtacular]

when was the last time you heard about one? be specific.

You can turn the question on me for no apparent reason other than to divert from the fact that I nailed the point, fuckface, if that's what you want do. Point's still been made, and your retardation has been uploaded. File Complete.

[Adam Lambert]

You can turn the question on me for no apparent reason other than to divert from the fact that I nailed the point, fuckface, if that's what you want do. Point's still been made, and your retardation has been uploaded. File Complete.

no examples of black kids who go into school because of affirmative action then?

[Spurtacular]

no examples of black kids who go into school because of affirmative action then?

:lmao Are you seriously asking that? You could not be more fucking stupid. What the fuck do you think affirmative action is, even? Never mind, I honestly think you just went full retard either way.

[Adam Lambert]

:lmao Are you seriously asking that? You could not be more fucking stupid. What the fuck do you think affirmative action is, even? Never mind, I honestly think you just went full retard either way.

i know what it is im asking if you personally know of specific examples

[DMC]

United States. They kept states in the name because the culture of states rights and soveigrnty was undeniable.

And as it is, the contract is quite clear. All rights not expressly given to the federal government are granted to the states. They were within their rights; and in fact, you can find plenty of examples of states threatening to secede in the 70 years leading to the civil war. There should've been no bloodshed for states doing what was in their right. Lincoln was no hero. He was just a guy who didn't want historians to paint him as the guy who lost half an empire.

The declaration of independence is all you need.

A state that secedes isn't a state, so it's a conundrum. A right is only as good as your power to enforce/guarantee it.

[Adam Lambert]

while youre thinking about it let me know if you know any white people who were sentenced to life in prison for $20 of weed, thx

[Adam Lambert]

wrong thread

[DMC]

while youre thinking about it let me know if you know any white people who were sentenced to life in prison for $20 of weed, thx

In 1985, at the age of 17, Winslow was convicted of simple burglary and sentenced to three years. In 1994, at 26, he was charged with the same, this time given 8½ years. In 2004, he was arrested for possession of cocaine, landing him 18 more months in prison. Multiple felonies left Winslow moneyless, jobless, and ineligible for food stamps (those with drug felonies are permanently banned from applying).


Hardly the truth you tell, but you're accustomed to hiding the truth, ain't that right Spurminator?

[Adam Lambert]

In 1985, at the age of 17, Winslow was convicted of simple burglary and sentenced to three years. In 1994, at 26, he was charged with the same, this time given 8½ years. In 2004, he was arrested for possession of cocaine, landing him 18 more months in prison. Multiple felonies left Winslow moneyless, jobless, and ineligible for food stamps (those with drug felonies are permanently banned from applying).

and then sentenced to life in prison for $20 of weed after being approached by an undercover cop asking if he could buy some weed.


Hardly the truth you tell, but you're accustomed to hiding the truth, ain't that right Spurminator?

you want to get into all that again?
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269905&page=2

[DMC]

and then sentenced to life in prison for $20 of weed after being approached by an undercover cop asking if he could buy some weed.

Exactly... and then. And then the repeat offender offended again, and again... and again... and again.. "but this 'and then' was only a 20 dollar weed sale'". You present partial truths because you're a fucking media whore who thinks like you're told to think.



you want to get into all that again?
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269905&page=2
I showed you mercy. You should appreciate it and act like someone.

[Adam Lambert]

Exactly... and then. And then the repeat offender offended again, and again... and again... and again.. "but this 'and then' was only a 20 dollar weed sale'". You present partial truths because you're a fucking media whore who thinks like you're told to think.

then maybe you can answer the question of when this has happened to a white person, since that was the line of conversation before you butted in with your "derr but he had dat criminal histery, and you spurminator i know it"


I showed you mercy. You should appreciate it and act like someone.

lol youre a pussy who was ashamed, and you know why youre ashamed.

i showed you mercy. but by all means if you want to revisit the ele bet, my terms still stand.

[Pavlov]

Whites get discriminated against more than blacks, dude. We just got done having an affirmative action president for fuck's sake.


aaaaand retardation confirmed.

[Pavlov]

When was the last white you heard about who got a job or got into school because of affirmative action? You're "retardation" is absolute.Money and legacies are white affirmative action.

:lol "you're"

[DMC]

then maybe you can answer the question of when this has happened to a white person, since that was the line of conversation before you butted in with your "derr but he had dat criminal histery, and you spurminator i know it"


What's the ratio of race:incarceration? Knowing that, why did homey continue to offend? With that ratio discrepancy, which you'll say is because of police bias and corrupt justice system, why wouldn't you expect the higher concentration to have a higher chance of fliers like this one? There are a number of folks who have been sentenced to life for repeat offenses because a condition of their release was that they not reoffend, but they did. Cry me a river.


lol youre a pussy who was ashamed, and you know why youre ashamed.

i showed you mercy. but by all means if you want to revisit the ele bet, my terms still stand.

So you're going to ELE your alt, one of over 20 of them you have? lol

[Adam Lambert]

So you're going to ELE your alt, one of over 20 of them you have? lol

nah man if you prove im spurminator for the whole forum to see then spurminator and lambert are retired

show us your genius detective work in all of its glory!

[Spurtacular]

Money and legacies are white affirmative action.



Life is not perfectly fair. Creating racist standards and calling it fair is definitely a load of bull shit. And it happens cos of white cucks. When the table gets flipped, there won't be brown cucks pulling this shit. Nah, they'll just fuck the country up like every other country they've ever ruled.

[DMC]

nah man if you prove im spurminator for the whole forum to see then spurminator and lambert are retired

show us your genius detective work in all of its glory!

But you have like 18 or more alts to fall back on. What do I have to gain by burning my method for the world to see? I'd rather make you sweat every time you pop your cork.

Why do you not take these same stances under Spurminator, are you afraid to burn that account with the shit you do under your alt?

[Adam Lambert]

What's the ratio of race:incarceration? Knowing that, why did homey continue to offend? With that ratio discrepancy, which you'll say is because of police bias and corrupt justice system, why wouldn't you expect the higher concentration to have a higher chance of fliers like this one? There are a number of folks who have been sentenced to life for repeat offenses because a condition of their release was that they not reoffend, but they did. Cry me a river.

so blacks should be more on guard against breaking the law than whites, because they are more likely to get a higher sentence.

that proves whites are more discriminated against, how?

[Spurtacular]

The Adam Lambert account is fucking stupid as shit. He should retire it, anyways.

[Pavlov]

Life is not perfectly fair. Creating racist standards and calling it fair is definitely a load of bull shit.Nobody said it was perfectly fair.
And it happens cos of white cucks. When the table gets flipped, there won't be brown cucks pulling this shit. Nah, they'll just fuck the country up like every other country they've ever ruled.:lol But you care about them more than anyone here.

[DMC]

so blacks should be more on guard against breaking the law than whites, because they are more likely to get a higher sentence.

that proves whites are more discriminated against, how?

You're doing it now. You're saying the black guy was treated unfairly because he was sentenced to life for being a lifetime burden on the criminal justice system, because he's black. Not because he was a repeat offender, but because he's black, as if he didn't commit all those crimes, whitey made him do it.

It doesn't matter what anecdotes you drag up, blacks aren't being sentenced to life for weed. If they were we'd not see any in the NBA or on the street. You floated that weak shit because you don't have a leg to stand on. I am not with Spurtacular, I think he's an idiot, but you're just as bad in the other direction, and you're ate up with it because you have to do it under an alt.

[Spurtacular]

so blacks should be more on guard against breaking the law than whites, because they are more likely to get a higher sentence.

that proves whites are more discriminated against, how?

Like everything else in the media, the blacks getting tougher sentences thing is a red herring. Poor people get tougher sentences. Blacks are disproportionately poor.

[DMC]

The Adam Lambert account is fucking stupid as shit. He should retire it, anyways.

:hat

[Adam Lambert]

But you have like 18 or more alts to fall back on. What do I have to gain by burning my method for the world to see? I'd rather make you sweat every time you pop your cork.

the idea of gaining/losing imaginary internet points over identifying someones alt is a concept foreign to me, so i guess youll just have to find some way to feel rewarded about it


Why do you not take these same stances under Spurminator, are you afraid to burn that account with the shit you do under your alt?

lol what shit is that?

[Spurtacular]

Nobody said it was perfectly fair.:lol But you care about them more than anyone here.

Care about who?

[DMC]

the idea of gaining/losing imaginary internet points over identifying someones alt is a concept foreign to me, so i guess youll just have to find some way to feel rewarded about it



lol what shit is that?

Sure it's foreign to you, that's why you have so many alts. You like being able to talk shit away from the main account because you don't want everyone to know what a turd you really are.

You start a thread as Spurminator then do all your shit posting under this alias. You're a coward.

[Pavlov]

I honestly don't see the Lambert/Spurminator nexus but I wasn't looking for it either.

[Adam Lambert]

He could switch to Pejalooms.

thats weird, pejalooms hasnt posted since 2008, why would you possibly think that alt is mine, chucho?

[Spurtacular]

:lmao If Adam Lambert is actually your sole account, then you have to be the biggest fluffer on ST.

[DMC]

I honestly don't see the Lambert/Spurminator nexus but I wan't looking for it either.

As an ex-mod you shouldn't have a problem with it.

[DMC]

thats weird, pejalooms hasnt posted since 2008, why would you possibly think that alt is mine, chucho?

You started first by accusing me of being Chucho before I ever said anything about you being Spurminator.

Don't know about "pejalooms". Never heard of him.

[Adam Lambert]

You're a coward.

speaking of, stealth edit on the pejalooms post but i caught it first

im just trying to understand your methodology and your motivation here

[Pavlov]

Care about who?
And not that I need to get into it, but I care more about blacks in inner cities than you ever will. You're probably just some gentrified deuche in an ivory tower.
Also didn't know anyone here was from Germany. Learn something new every day.

[DMC]

speaking of, stealth edit on the pejalooms post but i caught it first

im just trying to understand your methodology and your motivation here
I just bet you are. :lol

Baffled a bit eh?

[Pavlov]

As an ex-mod you shouldn't have a problem with it.I don't have a problem. I just don't see it.

[Adam Lambert]

You started first by accusing me of being Chucho before I ever said anything about you being Spurminator.

Don't know about "pejalooms". Never heard of him.

i called you chucho a couple of times because you post almost exactly the same non sequitor "hillary lost - period" type takes, and i kept it going because it just got you so darn agitated. but i have no proof either way, and i dont really care.

you seem to though, and now you claim to have discovered that im spurminator (along with a bunch of other alts).

so spill it.

[DMC]

i called you chucho a couple of times because you post almost exactly the same non sequitor takes, and i kept it going because it just got you so darn agitated. but i have no proof either way, and i dont really care.

My "exactly the same" detector is better than yours. Besides I always drop clues or just outright tell who my alts are when I have them. I also tell how I know, and have told, you just choose to not believe it. But you believe the results, bet that.


you seem to though, and now you claim to have discovered that im spurminator (along with a bunch of other alts).
so spill it.
Nope. It's you and I.

And I don't give a shit who your alts are, but you know I know.

Barber, proceed - Doc

[DMC]

I don't have a problem. I just don't see it.

Explain

[Adam Lambert]

My "exactly the same" detector is better than yours.

if you say so!


I also tell how I know, and have told, you just choose to not believe it. But you believe the results, bet that.

if you say so!


Nope. It's you and I.

lol okay

i know how agitated you are right now and its pretty great

[DMC]

if you say so!



if you say so!



lol okay

i know how agitated you are right now and its pretty great

Of course, I'm the agitated one. I'm sitting here with the nuts and you're bluffing.

[Pavlov]

ExplainI just said I don't see the resemblance. I'm not good at ferreting out trolls, so don't be surprised.

[DMC]

I just said I don't see the resemblance. I'm not good at ferreting out trolls, so don't be surprised.

Of course, Spurminator doesn't want you to know he's being a douche on another account. That's sacred shit, and soon some semen shield will pop in to shield him from it.

[Adam Lambert]

Of course, I'm the agitated one. I'm sitting here with the nuts and you're bluffing.

yes on a website where the average alt per user ratio is about 7.2/1, youre sitting here totally not being agitated about me possibly having or being an alt. me, the guy who said you were chucho.

totally not agitated!

[Pavlov]

Of course, Spurminator doesn't want you to know he's being a douche on another account. That's sacred shit, and soon some semen shield will pop in to shield him from it.OK.

[DMC]

yes on a website where the average alt per user ratio is about 7.2/1, youre sitting here totally not being agitated about me possibly having or being an alt. me, the guy who said you were chucho.

totally not agitated!

Not "possibly".

You keep responding. You knew right away when pejalooms posted last. Did you run and look it up just for shits and giggles?

Just admit it, or don't. Either way, everyone.. meet Spurminator. He's going to pretend he's someone else and talk shit.

Carry on.

[Spurtacular]

Also didn't know anyone here was from Germany. Learn something new every day.

Well, I don't come on here trying to be Jesus or nothing. And that I'm honest as fuck about societal issues doesn't mean I don't treat people with respect on the streets.

[Caveman Lawyer]

lol why would i accept those terms? stop moving the goalposts now that youre cornered.

nah man i want you to post it here for everyone to see.


This is how ELE bets always work. There has to be a mediator who says yea or nay. I don't want to expose sensitive information to everyone.


what sensitive information?

im fine with this forum being the mediator. bring it to the public.


you thinking it's just about you.


who else would it be about? im spurminator right?


If we just had a mediator, maybe a lawyer. Do you happen to know a lawyer, maybe a caveman who is also a lawyer?

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic make me want to get out of my BMW.. and run off into the hills, or wherever.. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine, I wonder: "Did little demons get inside and type it?" I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts.

But there is one thing I do know. I haven't posted in 10 years under this alt but somehow DMC's "alt detector" identified me as an alt for Adam Lambert and Spurminator. That seems strange and confusing!

[Pavlov]

Do you tell the black people on the streets you respect and care about that--
they'll just fuck the country up like every other country they've ever ruled.

[Helen Keller]

getting so mad you make a wild guess about my identity on the chance ill ban myself and you wont have to deal with me anymore.
not expecting me to call your bluff
nothingburger
muh mediator
.


pffft, Helen Keller could have seen that.


lhjasdbnsdbviludkw wj ;qwh ;hjwejlqhjwlk qergl ;we lew
wekwelhweglkwegkj k qhuwefk ;

[DMC]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Spurminator again.

[Adam Lambert]

You keep responding. You knew right away when pejalooms posted last. Did you run and look it up just for shits and giggles?

and you deleted your post about pejalooms, i wonder why you did that?

[Spurtacular]

Do you tell the black people on the streets you respect and care about that--

You think rewarding under-performing will lead to prosperity? I'm guessing at the end of the day that you think a black cock down your throat will suffice. Is that how you show you care? :lmao

[DMC]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic make me want to get out of my BMW.. and run off into the hills, or wherever.. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine, I wonder: "Did little demons get inside and type it?" I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts.

But there is one thing I do know. I haven't posted in 10 years under this alt but somehow DMC's "alt detector" identified me as an alt for Adam Lambert and Spurminator. That seems strange and confusing!

Weird isn't it? I didn't believe it either at first.

[DMC]

and you deleted your post about pejalooms, i wonder why you did that?

I have no idea what you're talking about. :rollin

[PejaLooms]

Hey guys, my ears are burning. Been 9 years. What did I miss?

[Spurtacular]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'm just a caveman. I fell on some ice and later got thawed out by some of your scientists. Your world frightens and confuses me! Sometimes the honking horns of your traffic make me want to get out of my BMW.. and run off into the hills, or wherever.. Sometimes when I get a message on my fax machine, I wonder: "Did little demons get inside and type it?" I don't know! My primitive mind can't grasp these concepts.

But there is one thing I do know. I haven't posted in 10 years under this alt but somehow DMC's "alt detector" identified me as an alt for Adam Lambert and Spurminator. That seems strange and confusing!

I guess "full retard" is just a figure of speech. Because you definitely up'd the ante on your retardation, adam. I don't know what was worse, that spiel in and of itself, or the fact that you thought that was supposed to accomplish something.

[Adam Lambert]

I have no idea what you're talking about. :rollin

:lmao :lmao

and youre calling me a coward

[Spurtacular]

Hey guys, my ears are burning. Been 9 years. What did I miss?

:lmao What do you get out of confirming DMC was right?

[Spurtacular]

:lmao :lmao

and youre calling me a coward

You're a tool.

[Pavlov]

You think rewarding under-performing will lead to prosperity?You voted for Trump.
I'm guessing at the end of the day that you think a black cock down your throat will suffice. Is that how you show you care? :lmaoDo you tell the black people you respect and care about--
they'll just fuck the country up like every other country they've ever ruled.Do you?

[Spurminator]

:lmao What do you get out of confirming DMC (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=20665) was right?

What do I lose?

It wasn't me who went on a scavenger hunt to cross-reference registration info against thousands of usernames to find out who was behind the alt that drove me insane.

[DMC]

nah man if you prove im spurminator for the whole forum to see then spurminator and lambert are retired

show us your genius detective work in all of its glory!


What do I lose?

It wasn't me who went on a scavenger hunt to cross-reference registration info against thousands of usernames to find out who was behind the alt that drove me insane.

[Spurminator]

Sorry, friend, you didn't show your math.

Now everyone knows why. I don't know if another moderator has ever gotten so shook that he went alt-hunting, but it's pretty pathetic tbh.

Thanks for bringing it back up tonight, I kind of regretted not finishing this last week.

[DMC]

Sorry, friend, you didn't show your math.

Now everyone knows why.

No they don't. I intentionally don't show my math to protect others including you. It's why I didn't take your ELE bet, I knew I was right and didn't want to see you exit (I figured you would honor your bet as Spurminator, not sure as Adam).