Mayor Hardberger and Tom Benson want the San Antonio Saints

[TheWriter]

Mayor wants Saints in San Antonio

Web Posted: 10/17/2005 12:00 AM CDT

Tom Orsborn
Express-News Staff Writer

Laying aside all pretenses about the city's interest in the New Orleans Saints, Mayor Phil Hardberger said Sunday he plans to pursue actively the permanent relocation of the team to San Antonio.

Hardberger said Saints owner Tom Benson has agreed to participate in discussions, likely at the end of the current season, aimed at making the team the "San Antonio Saints" before the start of the 2006 season.

"He (Benson) understands that we will sit down and talk," Hardberger said while attending Sunday's Saints-Atlanta Falcons game at the Alamodome. "That is his desire as well. I'm pretty comfortable in saying he wants to be here."

A sellout crowd of 65,562 — the largest ever for a football game in San Antonio — turned out to see the Saints lose to the Falcons, 34-31, on a last-minute field goal.

"I think Tom Benson would like to stay here permanently and I, as mayor of San Antonio, would like to have the team stay here permanently," said Hardberger, who watched much of the game in Benson's suite.

Benson declined comment.

"I'm not going to make any comments about it until the end of the season," he said.

The Saints' contract with the Louisiana Stadium & Exposition District, which operates the Louisiana Superdome, runs through the 2010 season. But the Saints can opt out of the deal by invoking a destruction, or force majeure clause, before Nov. 29.

"We have a contract in place," said Tim Coulon, head of the Louisiana Stadium & Exposition District. "I understand he has a business obligation, but he has an obligation to the state as well."

An NFL spokesman declined comment.

Gov. Rick Perry, who also watched the game in Benson's suite, said he agrees with Hardberger that San Antonio is the Saints' best relocation option.

Other dignitaries in the Benson suite included the mayors of Austin and Laredo and state Sen. Jeff Wentworth, R-San Antonio.

Hardberger reiterated that he's against using city funds to build a new stadium for the Saints but said he would welcome state assistance.

Perry indicated he's open to the idea.

"If and when the Saints decide to move, San Antonio and the surrounding area would be an ideal location," Perry said. "And the question of whether there is local or state support is, without a doubt, in the affirmative."

Said Wentworth: "I'm hopeful this is where (the Saints) land permanently. We'd love to have them."

To prepare for talks with Benson, the city has commissioned a cost-benefit analysis of the Saints in San Antonio.

"We want to know how much money realistically (Saints games) can bring into the city," Hardberger said. "I consider Tom Benson a friend, but Tom Benson isn't going to give his team away."

Luring the Saints to San Antonio could cost millions, Hardberger said.

"To get a team you have to spend money, and many people only see that part of it," Hardberger said. "But you have to ask what you are going to get out of it. If you are getting back $3 for every dollar you spend, so what if it takes millions?"

The Saints moved their operations to the Alamodome on Sept. 2, just one week after Hurricane Katrina heavily damaged the Superdome.

Three Saints home games subsequently were moved to the Alamodome. Four others were moved to Baton Rouge, La., where ticket sales have lagged badly behind sales here.

Hardberger last week called the tickets sales situation in Baton Rouge "a disaster." About 42,000 tickets remain for the Saints' Baton Rouge opener Oct. 30 at LSU's Tiger Stadium, which will seat 79,000 for Saints games.

"The truth is they are not selling tickets in Baton Rouge," Hardberger said. "Do you want to see half of the seats filled or all of the seats?"

NFL commissioner Paul Tagliabue is expected to talk to LSU officials next week about the Saints playing their 2006 home games in Baton Rouge.

Tagliabue "doesn't want them here," Hardberger said. "He wants them in Baton Rouge, and the only reason he wants them there is he doesn't want them to settle in here and be successful. Otherwise, Baton Rouge makes no sense because we will outsell their tickets, two to one. (Benson) doesn't want to be in Baton Rouge, where he would be losing money every game."

The Saints could face stiff resistance from the league if they attempt to relocate. According to league policy, such a move would require approval from 24 of the NFL's 32 owners.

"It's going to be a struggle," Hardberger said. "But the Saints are not working against this. Benson has said on numerous occasions he wants to be in San Antonio. The players want to be here and the coaches want to be here. Now, (Benson) is a businessman.

"But I believe him when he says he ultimately wants the team to be here and stay here."

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA101705.1A.FBN.hardberger.saints.8a8a74b.html

[TheWriter]

It's getting serious. Read who Benson had in his freaking suite. The Gov, a Senator, three Mayors including our own.

[bigzak25]

no champagne yet, but this is AWESOME NEWS!

Benson always held the keys to this bandwagon.

lets watch the doubters climb aboard now! :elephant

This would be fantastic for our wonderful city of San Antonio! :smokin

[Horry For 3!]

Niceeeee. Make it happen so I can go to more NFL games!

[ZStomp]

Where does Benson actually say he, as you put it in your thread title: Tom Benson want the San Antonio Saints.

[TheWriter]

Where does Benson actually say he, as you put it in your thread title: Tom Benson want the San Antonio Saints.

Quote #1

"Benson has said on numerous occasions he wants to be in San Antonio."

Quote #2

"But I believe him when he says he ultimately wants the team to be here and stay here."

[ZStomp]

Quote #1

"Benson has said on numerous occasions he wants to be in San Antonio."

Quote #2

"But I believe him when he says he ultimately wants the team to be here and stay here."


Again, show me where he is quoted not hearsay.

[TheWriter]

Again, show me where he is quoted not hearsay.

Hearsay?

So if Bush is told by bin Ladan that he is going to bomb this place at this time, it's just "hearsay"?

So if Bush went to someone and said: "Hey, bin just told me so and so."

That person should respond: "Hearsay Mr. Bush, hearsay."

Really?

Seems you just want a reason to say: "Ain't happenin'."

[TheWriter]

Also, just did a quicky dictionary.com look up for the word "hearsay."

hear·say
n.

1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.
2. Law. Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.


Mayor Hardberger relaying what he's been told by Benson himself is not "hearsay."

You're free to try again.

[ZStomp]

I want it to happen as much as the other guy.

Do I see it happening? Unfortunately, no. But I hope I'm wrong.

I'm not saying that Benson hasn't said those things...maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. Words don't mean much. Action does. I'm just asking to show me a quote directly from Benson.

[ZStomp]

Also, just did a quicky dictionary.com look up for the word "hearsay."

hear·say
n.

1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.
2. Law. Evidence based on the reports of others rather than the personal knowledge of a witness and therefore generally not admissible as testimony.


Mayor Hardberger relaying what he's been told by Benson himself is not "hearsay."

You're free to try again.


man. get some sleep. you take this TOO SERIOUS.

Jesus.

[TheWriter]

I want it to happen as much as the other guy.

Do I see it happening? Unfortunately, no. But I hope I'm wrong.

I'm not saying that Benson hasn't said those things...maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. Words don't mean much. Action does. I'm just asking to show me a quote directly from Benson.

How much more of a quote from Benson do you need than the Mayor telling reporters Benson has told him that he wants to move the team here.

Of course you're not going to get a direct quote from Benson until the season is over, maybe just maybe before its over but most likely afterwards.

It seems clear that he wants to be here, the city wants him here, hell, the state wants the team here. Not to mention it seems Louisiana won't have a foot to stand on when it comes to making the Saints keep their end of the contract up.

So as it is, the Saints will most likely get out of their contract with the state and the city on Nov 28th, thereby making the Saints "free agents."

The city comes up with the right deal and bam! I'll that leaves is votes from owners.

[TheWriter]

man. get some sleep. you take this TOO SERIOUS.

Jesus.

I take this too serious? You're the one wanting quotes to justifiy my title. :lol

[ZStomp]

:lol I guess.

BuddyHolly- do you actually see the Saints coming to SA? Or for that matter...expansion team?

Serious.

[TheWriter]

:lol I guess.

BuddyHolly- do you actually see the Saints coming to SA? Or for that matter...any team?

Serious.

Yes. The Saints are definitely the most realistically as of this moment.

If Benson wants to be here, I don’t see what could stop him. I believe once the season is over the hysteria of Katrina and post-Katrina will die down considerably to the point that only die hard Saints fans and San Antonians will be paying attention to the goings on.

If we don't get the Saints, I don't think we're out of the relocation game but it'll be a while.

I honestly believe its 60-40 on the Saints relocation to SA.

[ZStomp]

Do the owners have to vote to approve the move of a team?

[TheWriter]

Do the owners have to vote to approve the move of a team?

Yes, 24 of 32 have to vote yes.

[ZStomp]

Yes, 24 of 32 have to vote yes.


It's possible. For some crazy reason..i thought all 32 had to approve.

[Marcus Bryant]

With the NFL able to extract a franchise fee of $700 mil for the Texans to join the league back in 1998 or 1999, it would not be surprising to see someone come along and offer Benson well over $1 billion for the Saints with the purpose of relocating them to Los Angeles. There would be no resistance in the league to such a deal.

If, again, Benson wants to leave a shitload of money on the table and for community/personal reasons wants the team in SA, then it's going to take the state and all of the city and county governments between the Valley, SA and Austin to come up with the jack for a new stadium. In addition, it is going to take the NFL having the willingness to take a major PR hit by bolting from Louisiana so soon after Katrina as well as to see a team relocate to a marginally better market, instead of Los Angeles.

On the state political scene it would be interesting to see the arguments put forth for state assistance with a major stadium project, especially considering that Reliant Stadium as well as the new Cowboys stadium, were not and will not be, respectively, to my knowledge, built with any state government assistance whatsoever.

[Marcus Bryant]

In addition, while South Central Texas may indeed be a marginally better market than South Louisiana and Mississippi, it's not as though you will be getting more Texans to watch NFL football. The basic premise of a move to SA from NO is that you will get Texans to watch more football. To me, that makes the prospective gains for the NFL from a relocation of the Saints to SA all the more spurious. Are Cowboys fans going to tune in to watch the Saints as well? What's the value in that versus putting a team in the 2nd largest media market in the US?

In addition, the Saints will at some point in the near future need a new stadium and that is not going to run cheap. The only way a franchise is going to be viable in South Central Texas is if it taps heavily into the Austin market. That means the stadium would have to be built along I-35 and probably no further south than San Marcos. The "money" in Austin is located in Central Austin and then points West and North. If you expect to draw people and companies from Austin out to games then you have to recognize that people have to drive 15 to 20 miles, if not more, just to get out of Austin. Factor in a realistic time allowance for Austin traffic (1 to 2 hours) and whatever stadium better not be in San Antonio or even New Braunfels for that matter.

Northside San Antonio may not mind driving up to San Marcos to catch some games but if you're on the Westside or Southside that's a 50+ mile trip.

Sure, if the team officially relocates to South Central Texas, then for a season or two it might draw well. But when someone is looking at spending 4 or 5 hours in the truck to see the 3-9 Saints take on the 4-8 Cardinals, well, that's where the fairlytale ends.

Which is why Benson will undoubtedly seek some kind of sweetheart stadium deal from the state and/or local governments. I would think it would be somewhat difficult for SA city government to get the populace of San Antonio de Bexar to agree to new taxes to build a stadium in...San Marcos.

But that's what I suspect Benson is looking for at the moment. He might be prepared to leave some money on the table that might come from a sale to another group bent on relocating the team in Los Angeles, but a 'man's gotta eat', I suppose.

[whottt]

Thieving fuckers...if you want to steal poor people's football teams, build your own fucking stadium...Explain to me why the state should have to pay for San Antonio's football team, exactly?

What, you guys are going to pay the state back? :lmao

NFL cities should be able, AND willing, to pay for their own freaking football teams.

Deadbeats...thieves.

If you want a fucking football team, pay for it yourselves, like every other city does.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, I'd be surprised to see the state government come up with any large scale assistance for the Saints to relocate as well as to build a stadium. No state assistance and is San Antonio de Bexar going to approve funding for another facility?

Oh, so you want to bring other city and county governments in on the deal? Alright, then be prepared to pony up some cash to see the stadium built...in San Marcos.

At some point, other needs in SA need to be addressed.

The one potential angle is that a significant corporate sponsor could be found. SBC, soon to be AT&T, seems like a natural choice. But with the SBC Center and SBC Park would the company agree to another sports stadium deal?

[Marcus Bryant]

It all comes down to Benson. If Benson is content to leave money on the table, if he is willing to move his team to another small market, if he is able to persuade the NFL to go along, if he can endure vitriolic personal criticism for leaving Louisiana so soon after Katrina and if he is fine with seeing his Saints play for the next decade in an outdated facility, then yeah, SA gets a team.

Again, do not discount the notion that SA is being used by Benson to get what he wants out of the State of Louisiana. He has been making noise for years about getting a new stadium. The Superdome is now out of the picture. He has the state right where he wants them. He apparently will be able to get out of the Superdome lease ASAP. He has a functioning stadium and a marginally better market to go to. The Louisiana state government, unlike Texas' has been willing to provide state assistance to a pro team.

So don't get your hopes up. Though, if SA is going to get a NFL team in the next decade, this is its best chance.

[Obstructed_View]

What does this have to do with the San Antonio Spurs?

[Marcus Bryant]

What does this have to do with the San Antonio Spurs?

Most forum participants and readers are from San Antonio or have ties to it.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Hate to break it to everyone, but SA is getting played.

Benson will talk the talk, and someone will come up with a hefty chunk of change to make sure the Saints end up in Los Angeles.

Everything he's doing now is just to make sure he gets the biggest golden parachute he can when LA comes calling.

[Marcus Bryant]

Uh, that news has already been 'broken'.

[Tobias]

Saints staying in SA? Not gonna happen.

[Marcus Bryant]

If Benson is using SA he is using it to play the Louisiana state government. With the Superdome now out of the picture he can get the new stadium he's been clamoring for. Between Super Bowls, Sugar Bowls and other college games, the Superdome was an important cog in the New Orleans' tourist industry. There is a reason now for a new stadium and there should be ample public funds available. The new stadium can be sold as being a part of the 'infrastructure' rebuild in NO and that it will help to create jobs during its construction, etc...

If Benson was looking to sell out to someone who wanted to move the team to Los Angeles he would've done so long ago. The league certainly wouldn't mind the Saints relocating to Los Angeles.

He has Louisiana by the short hairs. He does have a viable (though temporary) facility in a marginally better market to relocate to. He also wouldn't be locked into any kind of long-term lease.

I would not be surprised that before long Benson and the Louisiana commission on whatever get together and agree on a new stadium deal.

[blaze89]

Hate to break it to everyone, but SA is getting played.

Benson will talk the talk, and someone will come up with a hefty chunk of change to make sure the Saints end up in Los Angeles.

Everything he's doing now is just to make sure he gets the biggest golden parachute he can when LA comes calling.

I certainly agree, we are getting played. San Antonio is a bargaining chip and to be honest, I don't mind. You can forget about Los Angeles, but Louisiana will definitely come calling at the end of the day.

Rick Perry is playing for political votes, there is NO WAY the state legislature will allow state funds to finance any sports facility in San Antonio. Not only will it set a bad precedent but you will have Houston, Dallas, any city who has had sport facilities built without state money will have their representives vote against any measure.

I will credit Hardberger for his work on this matter, which is much better than many of the previous administrations, but he knows he will have to go back on some statements according to the article if he wants the NFL in San Antonio.


Hardberger reiterated that he's against using city funds to build a new stadium for the Saints but said he would welcome state assistance.

Don't expect that state assistance, Mr. Mayor.

[blaze89]

Q: Benson will need a new stadium in San Antonio — or, at the very least, major renovations at the Alamodome. What are the prospects for that?

A: Hardberger has said the city won't pay for a new stadium and won't pay Superdome-like subsidies to the Saints to make up for the Alamodome's modest size. But other income sources — and taxing authorities — could be brought into the mix. Local county governments could be included, as well as the state — if a regional plan for support of the team pans out. Some already envision a new stadium along the Interstate 35 corridor that would make the Saints the community property of San Antonio, Austin and all of South Texas.

[Extra Stout]

State money? Are you kidding me?

So not only is San Antonio playing the vulture, but they want to pass the buck on costs and make me pay for it?

Bullshit.

[Marcus Bryant]

Q: Benson will need a new stadium in San Antonio — or, at the very least, major renovations at the Alamodome. What are the prospects for that?

A: Hardberger has said the city won't pay for a new stadium and won't pay Superdome-like subsidies to the Saints to make up for the Alamodome's modest size. But other income sources — and taxing authorities — could be brought into the mix. Local county governments could be included, as well as the state — if a regional plan for support of the team pans out. Some already envision a new stadium along the Interstate 35 corridor that would make the Saints the community property of San Antonio, Austin and all of South Texas.


Problem is, again, that you have to convince taxpayers in San Antonio to pay for a stadium in...San Marcos. Ditto for Austinites.

Right now, with the Saints playing in the Alamodome and the public envisioning it as their future home, sure, most SA residents like the idea. But the reality is that SA is going to have to come up with a new stadium within the next decade, if not within a shorter time span to compete with what Louisiana will be putting together.

Before Katrina, Benson was already using SA as a threat to the Louisiana state government in order to get what he wanted (ie new stadium). How exactly has that changed?

At best, SA is a backup plan for Benson should he have a problem getting what he wants out of Louisiana. I think the reality is that SA is simply a bargaining chip. When you look at everything the Saints have done since Katrina hit from the perspective that he is using SA to get a new stadium in Louisiana, everything fits. Everything has been done to send a message to Louisiana politcians to get their shit together and come up with a replacement plan for the Superdome, pronto.

[John T]

A sellout crowd of 65,562 — the largest ever for a football game in San Antonio — turned out to see the Saints lose to the Falcons, 34-31, on a last-minute field goal.

I thought the bowl games always sold out, did they not? I know that in the past there were several times that I tried to get tickets but they were gone. Is it possible that they have a slightly different seating configuration for a pro game?


The Saints' contract with the Louisiana Stadium & Exposition District, which operates the Louisiana Superdome, runs through the 2010 season. But the Saints can opt out of the deal by invoking a destruction, or force majeure clause, before Nov. 29.

The Express-News had an article a couple of weeks ago indicating that the report from the team inspecting the Superdome infrastruction is due at the end of October. At that point we should know for sure if they're going to have to tear it down or they can rebuild.


Carie

[Kip Fanatic]

Looks like a thread where Marcus wants everyone here to believe that he actually knows what he is talking about. We must all remember that Marcus knows it all.

The truth is nobody knows what is going on or what will happen. I seriously doubt Tom Benson wants to go back to New Orleans after what he has witnessed going on here in two games. Why go back to a city that's pretty much a disaster? A city where your team really isn't a priority because of their constant losing.

San Antonio seems like a good fit right now because San Antonio residents are going nuts about having the NFL here, but it could be because the NFL has never been here. However, I don't see the Saints relocating here on a permanent basis. I see them ending up in L.A only because the NFL commissioner wants them there. It would be great for the Saints to end up here though.

[Marcus Bryant]

Looks like Marcus pissed off someone because Marcus has an opinion on the matter.

If I have posted something that is inaccurate, point it out. Otherwise, stop whining, start posting or scroll.

[MannyIsGod]

State money? Did the mayor just miss out on the fact the state couldn't get schools financed? Did he miss the special session?

If there is an innitiative to use public money on any stadium here, I will fight it tooth and fucking nail. Hey mayor, we pay state taxes as well as local taxes. It's still our money.

[easjer]

State money? Did the mayor just miss out on the fact the state couldn't get schools financed? Did he miss the special session?

If there is an innitiative to use public money on any stadium here, I will fight it tooth and fucking nail. Hey mayor, we pay state taxes as well as local taxes. It's still our money.


Thanks, Manny. I was going to add something similar.

And while I somtimes find Marcus Bryant to be an arrogant ass who enjoys reading his own words, as it were, I completely agree with him on this one.

And as for how it relates to the Spurs - well, try this on for size - they'll lose revenue. Lotta families who can't afford tickets to both, interference with press and with interest. People consistently talk about S. Texas as football territory, and the reason the Spurs are so popular comes down to two things: winning record and lack of anything else outside of football. The Spurs will take a real hit in terms of attendance and profit if football makes it to SA, and the idea of moving them will look more attractive again.

[SWC Bonfire]

I personally think that the Saints will locate here at least temporarily. 2-3 years minimum, then go from there. They will be S.A.'s to keep, but we will drop the ball and they will go back to either of the LA's, LA or L.A.

[Marcus Bryant]

State money? Did the mayor just miss out on the fact the state couldn't get schools financed? Did he miss the special session?

If there is an innitiative to use public money on any stadium here, I will fight it tooth and fucking nail. Hey mayor, we pay state taxes as well as local taxes. It's still our money.


The mayor needs to be upfront with the public. Within the decade a new stadium would have to be built if the Saints relocate to SA. He should go to the public and say...'If you think that the city should pony up a majority of the funds because it would be really cool for SA to have its own NFL team, then we'll have a vote on a stadium plan within a year or two.'

Again, SA is getting played. Benson is using the city to get what he wants from Louisiana. The governor and Austin mayor were there for show. Benson is sending a message to Baton Rouge that something needs to get done ASAP.

[2centsworth]

Thieving fuckers...if you want to steal poor people's football teams, build your own fucking stadium...Explain to me why the state should have to pay for San Antonio's football team, exactly?

What, you guys are going to pay the state back? :lmao

NFL cities should be able, AND willing, to pay for their own freaking football teams.

Deadbeats...thieves.

If you want a fucking football team, pay for it yourselves, like every other city does.
You can't possibly be this stupid. San Antonio has taken in 25,000 refugees and not one complaint about money.

Another football team in this state, particularly south texas, would be a great investment by this state.

[Kip Fanatic]

Looks like Marcus pissed off someone because Marcus has an opinion on the matter.

If I have posted something that is inaccurate, point it out. Otherwise, stop whining, start posting or scroll.

I'm just pointing out the obvious. You keep posting and keep saying the same thing on this subject. Let other's post without getting all offended. You have about close to half of all the postings on this one thread, but have said the same stuff. Its obvious you like reading your own postings for some strange reason. You made a good point.

Now take some time to read others and move on. Its not that hard Marcus.

[2centsworth]

State money? Did the mayor just miss out on the fact the state couldn't get schools financed? Did he miss the special session?

If there is an innitiative to use public money on any stadium here, I will fight it tooth and fucking nail. Hey mayor, we pay state taxes as well as local taxes. It's still our money.I understand your point-of-view. However, consider that to increase tax revenue the state may need to invest in tax producing ventures. Before making any conclusions at least look at a cost benefit analysis to the state.

This concept is used in business all the time, invest in people and materials and watch your profits grow. Sometimes you got to spend a little to make a little.

[Marcus Bryant]

I'm just pointing out the obvious. You keep posting and keep saying the same thing on this subject. Let other's post without getting all offended. You have about close to half of all the postings on this one thread, but have said the same stuff. Its obvious you like reading your own postings for some strange reason. You made a good point.

Now take some time to read others and move on. Its not that hard Marcus.


Would you like some brie with that?

I have my opinions about the subject at hand. Deal with it, baby.

[Marcus Bryant]

I understand your point-of-view. However, consider that to increase tax revenue the state may need to invest in tax producing ventures. Before making any conclusions at least look at a cost benefit analysis to the state.

This concept is used in business all the time, invest in people and materials and watch your profits grow. Sometimes you got to spend a little to make a little.


Why not spend a little trying to lure firms with actual jobs to the state? How about spending a little more on roads in the Dallas, Houston, SA and Austin metro areas?

The economic development argument for stadiums is a bit weak, to say the least.

[ShoogarBear]

I understand your point-of-view. However, consider that to increase tax revenue the state may need to invest in tax producing ventures. Before making any conclusions at least look at a cost benefit analysis to the state.

This concept is used in business all the time, invest in people and materials and watch your profits grow. Sometimes you got to spend a little to make a little.

Show me a cost benefit analysis done at any time which shows that government investment in professional sports results in a net tax revenue.

I'm not against use of taxes for stadiums, but this argument never washes.

I do think if SA steals the Saints the city will be considered to be way up there on the all-time scumbag list.

[Kip Fanatic]

Would you like some brie with that?

I have my opinions about the subject at hand. Deal with it, baby.

Seems like you have an OPINION. Not opinions. Get over yourself dude.

[Marcus Bryant]

The plural is in effect because there are a variety of issues within this discussion.

Get over yourself. I will post what I like. Read or scroll.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not sure enough people are going to be in NOLA to make it a viable option in the short term. I think Benson's interest is sincere, but a deal won't be worked out and they'll end up being the South Central Saints until something gets built in Carson or Dominguez Hills.

[John T]

I do think if SA steals the Saints the city will be considered to be way up there on the all-time scumbag list.

I'm not terribly informed on this issue, so please excuse me if I sound very ignorant. Why is it that we're 'stealing' them? I thought that Benson has been trying to move for a few years now. So, if he's going to move anyway, then why wouldn't we try to better position ourselves?


Carie

[bigzak25]

Hate to break it to everyone, but SA is getting played.

Benson will talk the talk, and someone will come up with a hefty chunk of change to make sure the Saints end up in Los Angeles.

Everything he's doing now is just to make sure he gets the biggest golden parachute he can when LA comes calling.

i don't believe that Benson would be as positive as he is and be dropping hints to city officials if his intention was solely to 'play' San Antonio.

i'm not sure what he has to gain at this point from lying.

you may be right, but i hope not.

Also, there are some things that have to be remembered about Los Angeles.

Sure every owner without a solid fan base is drooling,

but there are reasons that the Rams and Raiders are no longer there.

I know Al Davis wanted a new stadium and had his loyal fan base in Oakland

to go back to anyway, but Cali is Raider and Niner territory.

And when people aren't going to those games?

They are at the UCLA and USC games.

With so much to do?

it will be hard for a new team to build a dedicated fan base in LA.

sure, the money will be there with a new stadium,

and from what i'm sure will be lucrative TV deals.

but those that do not learn from History are doomed to repeat it.

Maybe Benson is wising up to that fact and learning just how hungry

San Antonio is for an NFL team.

seeing the dome sellout yesterday was surely a positive sign for him.

put a good product on the field and they will come. :tu :smokin

[Kip Fanatic]

The plural is in effect because there are a variety of issues within this discussion.

Get over yourself. I will post what I like. Read or scroll.

Take your own in advice about reading. Not your own. Read others.

[easjer]

I think it already unlikely that the Texans and Cowboys owners will agree, but moreover, I think it highly likely that Dallas and Houston representatives will allow a measure to pass to spend state funds on a stadium which will not provide the regions with any revenue, and will in fact be in competition. Further, I don't expect any areas outside the SA groupings would be in favor of that.

And I for one would be really surprised if voters aren't angry about money going to fund an entertainment center for one area when the state can't afford to buy textbooks for the classroom. But then again, we were ok with multiple special sessions in which little more than an approval of a raise in their wages was accomplished and school financing wasn't, so what do I know?

Bottom line for me - I don't particularly care for football, there are already two football teams playing professionally in Texas, and I think it would hurt the Spurs, which is something I care very much about. I think SA is getting played, and that's too bad, since a lot of folks really seem to want this. But I really hope it doesn't happen.

[Marcus Bryant]

I'm not sure enough people are going to be in NOLA to make it a viable option in the short term. I think Benson's interest is sincere, but a deal won't be worked out and they'll end up being the South Central Saints until something gets built in Carson or Dominguez Hills.

So he gets a sweetheart lease on a new stadium in NO built with public funds and the team is a nomad for a couple more years. That should be enough time for NO to get back to some kind of normalcy.

Maybe the Saints are here for most of the next couple of seasons before heading back to NO.

Benson gets the stadium he wants and SA gets the chance to prove itself as a viable NFL city over 2 to 3 years.

[Marcus Bryant]

i don't believe that Benson would be as positive as he is and be dropping hints to city officials if his intention was solely to 'play' San Antonio.

i'm not sure what he has to gain at this point from lying.

you may be right, but i hope not.

Also, there are some things that have to be remembered about Los Angeles.

Sure every owner without a solid fan base is drooling,

but there are reasons that the Rams and Raiders are no longer there.

I know Al Davis wanted a new stadium and had his loyal fan base in Oakland

to go back to anyway, but Cali is Raider and Niner territory.

And when people aren't going to those games?

They are at the UCLA and USC games.

With so much to do?

it will be hard for a new team to build a dedicated fan base in LA.

sure, the money will be there with a new stadium,

and from what i'm sure will be lucrative TV deals.

but those that do not learn from History are doomed to repeat it.

Maybe Benson is wising up to that fact and learning just how hungry

San Antonio is for an NFL team.

seeing the dome sellout yesterday was surely a positive sign for him.

put a good product on the field and they will come. :tu :smokin


Benson seems to be an owner who will not sell. So he's in it for the long haul and he's looking for a deal that makes sense on a year-in, year-out operating basis.

The one thing that would be needed from the state of Texas would be the creation of some kind of regional taxing authority that would levy taxes to fund the creation of a stadium.

People need to realize that it isn't a case of the Alamodome versus a decrepit and potentially condemned Superdome, but rather between whatever new stadium deal that the Louisiana state government will offer the Saints versus what new stadium deal the Saints can get in Texas.

[bigzak25]

screw the cowboys and texans.

nothing against the teams, but if their owners are so insecure that they can't allow another team in the HUGE state of Texas, then that's THEIR PROBLEM!

i agree that state dollars should not go to getting the saints here.

maybe some state dollars to improve the infrastructure and roads around the facility if needed....but that's it.

otherwise? it's all on the NFL, Tom Benson, and the City of San Antonio (including the people, the businesses, and anyone else that wants to chip in)

if you don't care about football?

why are you here.

and if you think an NFL team in San Antonio will hurt the Spurs?

you are wrong.

The Spurs are an Institution here now.

They paved the way, with DRob and TD leading the charge.

imagine the Good Holtcat and Co. with Tom Benson could do for our city!

the spurs already give so much back to the community, what do you think 53 more

millionaires in town could do? United we STAND people. Faith. BELIEVE. :tu

[SWC Bonfire]

So he gets a sweetheart lease on a new stadium in NO built with public funds and the team is a nomad for a couple more years. That should be enough time for NO to get back to some kind of normalcy.

Maybe the Saints are here for most of the next couple of seasons before heading back to NO.

Benson gets the stadium he wants and SA gets the chance to prove itself as a viable NFL city over 2 to 3 years.

Jacksonville makes more financial sense to the league for relocation to SA. It would prevent a Cowboys/Saints head-to-head tv situation and increase overall viewership in the area.

[ChumpDumper]

After some cursory research, I found that Gilette Stadium -- which would likely most resemble a regional stadium in Hays or Comal County -- was financed in roughly this fashion:

$70 million from the state of Massachusetts for infrastructure surounding the stadium.

$285 million for stadium construction to be raised by the owner himself. However a chunk of that was provided as a loan by the NFL. I don't have the exact number. An article says it could have been a maximum of $150 million, but the same article says the Broncos got $44 million and the Eagles $55 million to aid in construction of their new venues.

All this in response to a competing offer from Hartford, Conn.

In the end, San Antonians probably feel too burned by the dome and too afraid of big numbers to do this themselves. Hays County is all about building out their I-35 corridor, so if anything happens, look for it to happen there.

[Marcus Bryant]

Jacksonville makes more financial sense to the league for relocation to SA. It would prevent a Cowboys/Saints head-to-head tv situation and increase overall viewership in the area.


...and SA doesn't have to deal with any backlash because it 'stole' the Saints from a 'wounded' New Orleans.

[easjer]

if you don't care about football?

why are you here.


:rolleyes

Clearly, because I like basketball. And more specifically, I am obsessively devoted to Spurs basketball. :lol

You'll note this is not the NFL board.

[easjer]

I doubt Comal Co will go for it, but I think Hays might be a more legitimate possibility.

[ChumpDumper]

So he gets a sweetheart lease on a new stadium in NO built with public funds and the team is a nomad for a couple more years. That should be enough time for NO to get back to some kind of normalcy.

Maybe the Saints are here for most of the next couple of seasons before heading back to NO.

Benson gets the stadium he wants and SA gets the chance to prove itself as a viable NFL city over 2 to 3 years.Or Benson plays in South Central for a couple of years and moves into whatever new stadium out there for more money than he would ever get in either NOLA or SA.

[Marcus Bryant]

In the end, San Antonians probably feel too burned by the dome and too afraid of big numbers to do this themselves. Hays County is all about building out their I-35 corridor, so if anything happens, look for it to happen there.

Worst case scenario...you have a team between San Antonio and Austin that neither wants. That's not too far fetched. San Marcos is a significant drive from most parts of SA and from Austin it's 20 miles plus Austin traffic.

[Marcus Bryant]

Or Benson plays in South Central for a couple of years and moves into whatever new stadium out there for more money than he would ever get in either NOLA or SA.

Perhaps, if he wants to go to LA. For whatever reason, he seems to prefer either NO or SA.

[Extra Stout]

Jacksonville makes more financial sense to the league for relocation to SA. It would prevent a Cowboys/Saints head-to-head tv situation and increase overall viewership in the area.In the unlikely event the Saints ended up in SA permanently, in all likelihood they would trade places with the Jaguars and end up in the AFC South anyway.

[Marcus Bryant]

I think the best case for a publicly-financed (at the local level) stadium in SA would be made if the Saints end up in the Alamodome for another (full) season or two. That way, SA has the NFL experience and presumably will have enjoyed it.

A lot would have to happen in that scenario, namely that Lousiana drags its feet on a new stadium deal, the Saints aren't coerced into playing more games at other sites in Louisiana and that Benson is content to wait.

Not out of the realm of possibilities.

[Extra Stout]

Worst case scenario...you have a team between San Antonio and Austin that neither wants. That's not too far fetched. San Marcos is a significant drive from most parts of SA and from Austin it's 20 miles plus Austin traffic.The only NFL teams playing outside central cities right now are the Cowboys and the Patriots. Perhaps you could throw the Dolphins in that category, too. In all of those cases, the distances involved are considerably shorter than what it would be with a hypothetical stadium in Hays County.

I don't see how an SA bid could count on the Austin market. Most of the money in Austin is in the north-side tech corridor, and as far north as that is, traveling to see the Cowboys is almost as feasible as traveling to see a relocated SA team -- and that fan base is already established.

[MannyIsGod]

Kip, try adding something to the topic.

[Marcus Bryant]

Swapping out the New Orleans market for the SA market is a marginal improvement, at best, long term. If you can get the Austin market involved then it starts to look a little better. But, again, you wouldn't be bringing in many new NFL viewers. The case would be that you are getting existing fans to watch more football.

[MannyIsGod]

I think San Antonio is much better long term than NOLA alone, but I still think LA is better than either in the long term.

[ChumpDumper]

If those Austinites and San Antonians can make the trek to San Marcos to for "bargains" at the outlet mall, they can go for a football game. It's not like the games are on Friday afternoons. If they build it, they will come.

But I doubt they build it.

[SWC Bonfire]

If they build it, they will come.


That sounds vaguely familiar, Mr. Cisneros...

Saints or other NFL team move to SA on the merits of the San Antonio/south Texas audience only. Austin will not come; so many people are from Dallas, they live on the yankee side of town, and generally look down upon all things south of town as not worth their time or money.

[ChumpDumper]

That sounds vaguely familiar, Mr. Cisneros...That's why it won't be built.
they live on the yankee side of town, generally look down upon all things south of townIt's not being built on Stassney or Montopolis.

If you can convince me no one from North Austin has ever been to the outlet mall or Cabela's, I'll go along with you.

[ShoogarBear]

I'm not terribly informed on this issue, so please excuse me if I sound very ignorant. Why is it that we're 'stealing' them? I thought that Benson has been trying to move for a few years now. So, if he's going to move anyway, then why wouldn't we try to better position ourselves?


Perception is everything. If SA got the team while NO was still viable, it could be argued that there was a fair "competition". This way, it look like vulturism.

[Marcus Bryant]

You can get women to drive 60 miles round trip to shop but when you offer a man his couch, TIVO and a fridge full of longnecks versus driving that 60 miles, spending God knows how much time in traffic, beers at 6 bucks a pop and listening to the wife bitch about how she could've spent all that time shopping....well, here's the keys, honey.

[Extra Stout]

If those Austinites and San Antonians can make the trek to San Marcos to for "bargains" at the outlet mall, they can go for a football game. It's not like the games are on Friday afternoons. If they build it, they will come.

But I doubt they build it.Well... you would think.

Except that it's apples and oranges.

You're talking a LOT more people, all of whom will be traveling at the same time. The outlet malls are open all day, and you can get there and leave pretty much whenever you feel like it during business hours. There's no big traffic jam on I-35 getting in or out.

Game day would be totally different. For a noon kickoff, somebody in NE SA or south Austin is looking at an hour and a half in traffic, assuming there's some infrastructure built in the immediate vicinity of the stadium to handle traffic. Three lanes each way on I-35 are going to get backed up with that many people on the road at the same time, period. Add time onto that for those further out. So somebody out in La Cantera will have a two-hour drive, meaning they have to leave before 10 AM every Sunday just to get there in time for kickoff, and won't get home until 5:30 or 6 PM.

Want to tailgate? Either leave at the crack of dawn, or drive up the night before and get a hotel room. Does San Marcos have enough hotel rooms? They better build them -- quickly.

Are people going to put up with that little ordeal if the team sucks?

[ChumpDumper]

So no one drives from Boerne to watch the Spurs either?

[Marcus Bryant]

The Spurs are contenders.

I went to the Texans' home opener this season. There were empty seats, despite a quality opponent (Steelers). Now I did not go to HTown to see them, but was in town and thought I'd check out a game at Reliant Stadium.

In addition, there was a shitload of Steelers fans there. If the opponent had been, oh, say the Browns, I doubt that place would've been 3/4ths full.

When a team sucks, well, the seats empty fairly quick.

[ChumpDumper]

You're talking a LOT more people, all of whom will be traveling at the same time. The outlet malls are open all day, and you can get there and leave pretty much whenever you feel like it during business hours. There's no big traffic jam on I-35 getting in or out.

Game day would be totally different. For a noon kickoff, somebody in NE SA or south Austin is looking at an hour and a half in traffic, assuming there's some infrastructure built in the immediate vicinity of the stadium to handle traffic. Three lanes each way on I-35 are going to get backed up with that many people on the road at the same time, period. Add time onto that for those further out. So somebody out in La Cantera will have a two-hour drive, meaning they have to leave before 10 AM every Sunday just to get there in time for kickoff.And no one in Lowell would drive to a Pats game when they sucked?

Certainly no one drove to see the Cowboys from Plano when they sucked, right?

[SWC Bonfire]

That's why it won't be built.It's not being built on Stassney or Montopolis.

If you can convince me no one from North Austin has ever been to the outlet mall or Cabela's, I'll go along with you.

1. Cabella's is in extreme northern Hays county (about 1 1/2 miles from Travis county);
2. The parking lot has been relatively empty since a couple of weeks after the grand opening. Especially for the beginning of hunting season. The number of people going through the store has been orders of magnitude lower than what was initially expected.

[ChumpDumper]

1. Cabella's is in extreme northern Hays county (about 1 1/2 miles from Travis county);
2. The parking lot has been relatively empty since a couple of weeks after the grand opening. Especially for the beginning of hunting season. The number of people going through the store has been orders of magnitude lower than what was initially expected.Link?

[ChumpDumper]

Look, I don't want anyone to think that I'm a booster on the order of Buddy Holly. I just think a regional stadium would draw at least as well as the Superdome on a good day -- and that's all Tom is really looking for.

[SWC Bonfire]

Link?

You got the link. I work in Buda. I drive by it everyday, and stop in sometimes and look around and BS.

Nothing happens in Buda without everyone knowing about it. :lol

[ChumpDumper]

You got the link. I work in Buda. I drive by it everyday, and stop in sometimes and look around and BS.

Nothing happens in Buda without everyone knowing about it. :lolSo you all know the expectations for revenues and traffic right?

[Marcus Bryant]

I will also add that Reliant Stadium is by the Astrodome. Yes, it's not a short drive from a number of spots in the Houston metro area, but it wasn't too hard to get to from downtown.

And that was in one of the largest metro areas in the US.

From an attendance standpoint, I think a team would have to be located within Bexar County. You only build a regional stadium to attempt to make it into the Austin TV market in a significant way.

[j-6]

Regional teams (New England, Carolina, Tampa Bay) have people that identify with the particular area that they come from. If TPTB put up a stadium in San Marcos (which they can share w/ Texas State if they ever go D-1) and call the team the SA Saints, Austinites will flip you the bird and stay home to watch the Cowboys.

[ChumpDumper]

I agree that Austinites are an arrogant, insular, self-absorbed bunch of pricks for the most part, but the NFL is the NFL, and the I-35 corridor will be built out soon enough. The only question is whether to try for a team now or 10-20 years down the road when the price of admission will be in the billions, not millions.

[Extra Stout]

So no one drives from Boerne to watch the Spurs either?
Shit, I wasn't aware Boerne was a huge population center. I was thinking it was a small town, and that the number of people traveling to SA for a Spurs game would be in the dozens, with a negligible impact on I-10.

Has it grown to a million people recently?

Are you really that much of an idiot, or are you just playing stupid to be difficult?

The logistics of moving what would be the vast majority of fans long distances to the game when there's only one corridor to get there has to be taken into account.

If somebody wants to bring SH 130 into the conversation -- well, that would be another option for folks north of Austin, but then a new road has to built from 130 to San Marcos. It's possible, but it just adds $$$ and takes a while to get done.

I just think that the hassle of getting from SA/Austin to San Marcos, and the number of people that would be dissuaded from attending because of that, would exceed the benefit of having the stadium closer to Austin.

Put it in SA, that way at least half your prospective fan base has a easy time getting there, and the outlying fans that would have to travel in anyway at least won't have that big bottleneck at the entry point to the stadium.

Look at precedent: the Dolphins did not build their stadium halfway to Fort Lauderdale. The Chargers aren't looking for a stadium in Oceanside to capitalize on the L.A. market. The Patriots didn't build in Springfield. The Bengals didn't build in the northern suburbs to get closer to Columbus. The Titans didn't build halfway to Knoxville. The Panthers didn't build halfway to Raleigh-Durham or Greensboro. The 49ers aren't looking halfway towards San Jose.

It doesn't work. Stadiums downtown, or at least in the major city, already have substantial infrastructure. Facilities out in BFE end up like Texas Motor Speedway. For the races up there, you better drive up on Thursday and have an RV or a trailer set up, or you'll be sitting forever in traffic. They build the racetrack to handle that, and it's part of the culture to begin with -- you spend a weekend up there, and go to the time trials, the Busch race, and the Nextel race. And, they only have a few races a year, not eleven or twelve in a period of four months.

[Marcus Bryant]

I think the only thing more difficult than convincing SA/Bexar County voters to approve some kind of tax for a new local sports facility would be attempting to convince them to pay a new tax for a new facility in San Marcos.

I agree that South Central Texas needs to jump on any opportunity it can get to land a NFL team.

[ChumpDumper]

The logistics of moving what would be the vast majority of fans long distances to the game when there's only one corridor to get there has to be taken into account.Ever been to a Longhorn game?
The Patriots didn't build in Springfield.They built in Foxboro, which is halfway between Boston and Providence.

[ChumpDumper]

I think the only thing more difficult than convincing SA/Bexar County voters to approve some kind of tax for a new local sports facility would be attempting to convince them to pay a new tax for a new facility in San Marcos.I don't think Bostonians paid for Gilette directly, but yes -- it will be a hard sell in the legislature.

[SWC Bonfire]

So you all know the expectations for revenues and traffic right?

I know that they were expecting it to be the one of the largest tourist destinations in Texas with a huge average number of people per day. Contractors talk.

It is nowhere near that today. Maybe several thousand every day. They also employed hundreds of employees for the opening and layed off around half of them. I know several people who were fired and several that still work there.

Why don't you just concede that I actually know what the hell I am talking about without the assistance of the internet that a lot of the "experts" on here rely upon.

[Extra Stout]

And no one in Lowell would drive to a Pats game when they sucked?

Certainly no one drove to see the Cowboys from Plano when they sucked, right?To get to Foxboro, you can choose between I-95 or I-495. It's right near the interchange.

Texas Stadium is built in the middle of where three freeways come together.

In other words, there already is adequate infrastructure to get people in and out.

[Marcus Bryant]

UT fans come from the north and south on the road as well as from the city proper and through the air.

But that's college. You are going to have alumni support plus student attendance. In addition, DKR is located in the middle of a decent sized metro area and UT has been one of the largest universities in the nation over the course of decades, churning out tens of thousands of alumni.

When you have a pro team, new to the area, located a sigificant distance away from the stadium...well, it's a different story.

[ChumpDumper]

Why don't you just concede that I actually know what the hell I am talking about Because you have yet to prove it. The information should be available.

I don't get why you're going all whottty on me because I think Texans don't mind driving.

[j-6]

The next expansion team fee will be well over a billion dollars. Why fuck with the damn-near perfect symmetry of eight four team divisions unless there's at least nine zeroes to drool into?

[Extra Stout]

Ever been to a Longhorn game?

Do you consider Austin to be out in the middle of nowhere?

[ChumpDumper]

Do you consider Austin to be out in the middle of nowhere?I consider it to have mainly one corridor for vehicle access and pretty dated infrastructure.

[Marcus Bryant]

The next expansion team fee will be well over a billion dollars. Why fuck with the damn-near perfect symmetry of eight four team divisions unless there's at least nine zeroes to drool into?


Yep. This is about as good of a chance as there is going to be for SA to land a NFL team. You have an owner with ties to the area who is apparently not looking to cash out big at the moment. You have the team's existing market which is actually less attractive than SA's.

What needs to happen is that someone needs to sack up and attempt to get a stadium deal for SA in the works pronto. Benson is going to command a sweetheart stadium deal (ala the Spurs) because he undoubtedly can get one back in Louisiana.

I would think that McCombs would kind of be the ideal front man to start a stadium push in SA.

The more I think about it...fuck Austin. That complicates matters and I think it's clear that it would be more trouble than it's worth to bring Austin into the mix.

[SWC Bonfire]

I don't get why you're going all whottty on me because I think Texans don't mind driving.

:lol

My apologies. But so many people in Austin are from somewhere else, and they have their own allegiences.

And they don't mind driving, as long as it's north. They think San Antonio is just a bunch of Mexicans eating tacos in front of the Alamo.

[ChumpDumper]

The more I think about it...fuck Austin. That complicates matters and I think it's clear that it would be more trouble than it's worth to bring Austin into the mix.Probably, depends on the financing.

[ChumpDumper]

:lol

My apologies. But so many people in Austin are from somewhere else, and they have their own allegiences.

And they don't mind driving, as long as it's north. They think San Antonio is just a bunch of Mexicans eating tacos in front of the Alamo.Having lived in both, I wholeheartedly agree. Regional planning will happen soon enough, but the next couple of years probably isn't that time.

[Marcus Bryant]

In re 'vultures'....

I think that would die down a little come next fall. Sure, Benson would piss off a lot of people in South Louisiana and Mississippi so that means that the NFL would suffer some kind of drop-off in its ratings in...South Louisiana and Mississippi. Something tells me that the NFL wouldn't care that much about that. Besides, the league has the rotting corpse of Brett Favre's career to keep South Mississippi tuning in every season.

If Benson continues to balk at relocating to LA as well as selling his team, then I think the league might resign itself to Benson's wishes. Also, if the team officially relocates next season or beyond, then the PR hit the league would take over 'abandoning' New Orleans would be much less.

[Extra Stout]

I consider it to have one corridor for vehicle access and pretty dated infrastructure.

One corridor in and out of Austin? Well, if you choose to discount US 290 and SH 71. I guess if I ignore I-10, I-37, and US 281, there's only one way into San Antonio as well.

But anyway, once you get into Austin, there are any number of ways to get to the stadium, and any number of places to park. Austin is a major city, after all.

How are you going to do that in Hays County?

[ShoogarBear]

The NFL has pretty much said that a stadium will have to have on the order of 100 luxury boxes (as opposed to the Alamodome's what, 16?).

You really think you're going to have corporate support for that many boxes without Austin?

[Extra Stout]

The more I think about it...fuck Austin. That complicates matters and I think it's clear that it would be more trouble than it's worth to bring Austin into the mix.Yep.

Besides, if people are willing to drive long distances to an NFL game from north Austin, they're probably already driving to Irving and aren't likely to switch allegiances.

[j-6]

You have an owner with ties to the area who is apparently not looking to cash out big at the moment.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v699/jalbre6/gt.jpg


You have the team's existing market which is actually less attractive than SA's.

How many NFL markets rank below SA? Jacksonville, NO, Buffalo, and maybe Indianapolis? Kansas City? I don't think I can include Green Bay due to Milwaukee.

[Marcus Bryant]

The NFL has pretty much said that a stadium will have to have on the order of 100 luxury boxes (as opposed to the Alamodome's what, 16?).

You really think you're going to have corporate support for that many boxes without Austin?


Depends on why the stadium would need to meet those specs. Would it be to get league assistance for the new stadium?

[Extra Stout]

The NFL has pretty much said that a stadium will have to have on the order of 100 luxury boxes (as opposed to the Alamodome's what, 16?).

You really think you're going to have corporate support for that many boxes without Austin?If SA can't stand alone without help from a city 90 miles away, it shouldn't be thinking about the NFL in the first place.

[ShoogarBear]

My understanding is that is would be a requisite for approval for getting the TEAM.

The NFL is under a revenue sharing sysem, and they want each team to pull its weight.

[Extra Stout]

http://www.popartuk.com/g/l/lgpp30352.jpg



How many NFL markets rank below SA? Jacksonville, NO, Buffalo, and maybe Indianapolis? Kansas City? I don't think I can include Green Bay due to Milwaukee.Indy and KC are better markets, easily.

What about Nashville?

[Extra Stout]

Depends on why the stadium would need to meet those specs. Would it be to get league assistance for the new stadium?Given how diametrically opposed Tagliabue is to a team in SA, exactly why are people thinking Benson would get league assistance for a new stadium there?

I don't see the NFL lobbying too hard to get Al Davis a better deal in Oakland.

[blaze89]

The NFL has pretty much said that a stadium will have to have on the order of 100 luxury boxes (as opposed to the Alamodome's what, 16?).

You really think you're going to have corporate support for that many boxes without Austin?

The most the Alamodome can put it in its current configuration is...64. I think.

[Marcus Bryant]

My understanding is that is would be a requisite for approval for getting the TEAM.

The NFL is under a revenue sharing sysem, and they want each team to pull its weight.


But isn't that just TV contracts? I would think that JJones wouldn't want to share his local area revenues with anyone.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, if you choose to discount US 290 and SH 71.Is that where most of the fans come from? And once they get into town how do they get to the stadium? I-35. It's not my fault Austin was such a poorly planned city but there you go.
I guess if I ignore I-10, I-37, and US 281, there's only one way into San Antonio as well.But how do most folks usually get to the SBC Center?
How are you going to do that in Hays County?I'd probably speak with the good people of Foxboro.

[Extra Stout]

My understanding is that is would be a requisite for approval for getting the TEAM.

The NFL is under a revenue sharing sysem, and they want each team to pull its weight.Which is why they want a team in Los Angeles, rather than San Antonio.

An apathetic L.A. with a privately-financed stadium still would generate a great deal more revenue than a fiercely loyal S.A., unless S.A. offers a sweetheart stadium deal.

And given that Mayor Hardberger won't even consider city money for a stadium, there aren't any sweetheart deals on the horizon.

[j-6]

Indy and KC are better markets, easily.

What about Nashville?

Indianapolis is closer to Chicago than SA is to Houston, right? It's like a little under three hours in the car.

With Tennessee as their name and not Nashville, I figure the Titans are supposed to appeal to a regional following like Carolina.

[ShoogarBear]

But isn't that just TV contracts? I would think that JJones wouldn't want to share his local area revenues with anyone.

I'm really getting more into whatIthink than whatIknow, but I thought there was something like a 60-40 split of the local revenue, too.


The most the Alamodome can put it in its current configuration is...64. I think.

It's 38 according to a google search of the wire services.

[Marcus Bryant]

So what would it cost for a new stadium? As a rough guide, Reliant Stadium in Houston cost $325 mil and was open for business in 2002.

I just can't see SA, a city where CA Stubbs still holds some pull, agreeing to a public project of that magnitude.

You'd almost have to see the city give Benson a dirt cheap lease on the Alamodome plus, um, some "incentives" for the next 5 years. Let San Antonians experience having their own NFL team for a little while and then hit them up for a new stadium...

[ShoogarBear]

Has anybody in this thread stated yet that they think ANYBODY--the city, the county, the state, private--would actually build a new stadium ANYWHERE for an SA team?

[j-6]

You'd almost have to see the city give Benson a dirt cheap lease on the Alamodome plus, um, some "incentives" for the next 5 years. Let San Antonians experience having their own NFL team for a little while and then hit them up for a new stadium.

Either that or let the team play in SA for three or four years until Tags and the NFL find some uber-rich Angeleno to buy out Benson and agree to build a privately funded new stadium, and leave the Alamo City at the altar.

Even buying the dog-ass Saints with their cursed history is better than shelling out over a billion dollars just for a seat at the grown-up's table, before stadium and staffing costs.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't believe today but after having a NFL team for, oh, say 5 years, yeah, I think that SA could be cajoled into agreeing to some kind of deal. I'd also suspect that the value of a naming rights deal would be considerably more than it was on the SBC Center.

Problem is, SBC would probably be hit up again for that.

[j-6]

So what would it cost for a new stadium?

(proposed/under construction) Arlington Stadium, DAL- $650M

Lincoln Financial Field, PHI - $512M

Ford Field, DET - $500M

Reliant Stadium, HOU - $450M

(proposed/under construction)Minneapolis Stadium, MIN - $450M

(proposed/under construction) New Orleans Stadium, NO - $450M

(proposed/under construction) San Diego Stadium, SD - $400M

Gillette Stadium, NE - $397M

INVESCO Field at Mile High, DEN -$364M

Qwest Field, SEA - $360M

(proposed/under construction) Glendale Stadium, ARI - $355M

Heinz Field, PIT - $280M

[Marcus Bryant]

Either that or let the team play in SA for three or four years until Tags and the NFL find some uber-rich Angeleno to buy out Benson and agree to build a privately funded new stadium, and leave the Alamo City at the altar.

Even buying the dog-ass Saints with their cursed history is better than shelling out over a billion dollars just for a seat at the grown-up's table, before stadium and staffing costs.


Yep, this is the best NFL chance for SA yet. But as you point out, it's not a matter of just getting the Saints into the Alamodome. Planning for a new stadium would have to begin immediately.

[Extra Stout]

Is that where most of the fans come from? And once they get into town how do they get to the stadium? I-35. It's not my fault Austin was such a poorly planned city but there you go.So there are no Longhorn fans east or west of Austin? I seem to remember a large metro area about 180 miles to the southeast, that has about a quarter of the state's population by itself... do they use I-35? Seems like a rather roundabout way.

Or do all UT graduates end up settling in Dallas or San Antonio?

So, once in Austin, assuming that everybody crams onto I-35 and that nobody can read a map and figure out how to get over to that "MOPAC" thing and park on the west side of campus, does Austin not have a grid of surface streets like other cities? Does everybody just have to drive single file to a handful of entry points to the stadium and fill just the one parking lot? Given how small the lots are around DKR-Memorial, what do they do when they fill up?

That's weird -- most college campuses I've seen have a whole bunch of parking lots scattered over a wide area all over campus, and reserve a bunch of them on game days for incoming fans. Apparently they don't do that in Austin, nor do they use existing city parking lots for special events. They must be really bad at logistics not to use all that existing infrastructure.

At least that's how it would have to be, in order for your comparison of UT games to NFL games in BFE Hays County not to be a complete crock of shit.

[Marcus Bryant]

Which is why they want a team in Los Angeles, rather than San Antonio.

An apathetic L.A. with a privately-financed stadium still would generate a great deal more revenue than a fiercely loyal S.A., unless S.A. offers a sweetheart stadium deal.

And given that Mayor Hardberger won't even consider city money for a stadium, there aren't any sweetheart deals on the horizon.


I think the city could offer something to the Saints at present for playing in the Alamodome. At least for a couple of seasons.

There is precedent...didn't the city pay the Cowboys to hold their training camp in SA?

There couldn't be a sweetheart deal today. But in 5 years after the city has had the chance to grow attached to the idea of having NFL games to go to every fall?

[ChumpDumper]

I seem to remember a large metro area about 180 miles to the southeast, that has about a quarter of the state's population by itself... do they use I-35? Seems like a rather roundabout way.Since when does 290 go by the stadium? Oh, when it's also I-35. Roundabout indeed.
Does everybody just have to drive single file to a handful of entry points to the stadium and fill just the one parking lot? Given how small the lots are around DKR-Memorial, what do they do when they fill up?Well isn't that a horrible pain in the ass fans won't put up with? Oh wait -- they do. So having a huge lot around a stadium would be worse in that respect? Yes, I can see the anger now.

[ChumpDumper]

And you provided your own answer earlier.
If somebody wants to bring SH 130 into the conversation -- well, that would be another option for folks north of Austin, but then a new road has to built from 130 to San Marcos. It's possible, but it just adds $$$ and takes a while to get done.Well, all of this will take money and time, but the area along 130 is set up for enormous growth, so something like widening Hwy 21 or 80 might happen anyway.

[SWC Bonfire]

Chump, I admire your optimism, but if the NFL is in SA, it's going to have to fly on the backs of San Antonians and South Texans (Corpus, small towns, Laredo, Valley) and any extra from Austin will be a bonus.

[Marcus Bryant]

I think you have to have a population that will identify with the team. San Antonio has demonstrated that it will identify strongly with a pro franchise. Granted, the Spurs have been a rather successful franchise on the court for most of its history, so maybe it's not the best indicator of how a lackluster NFL franchise would be received.

But, this is South Texas we are talking about. Football is king. If South Texas can fall in love with a NBA team, anything is possible.

I don't see it as an either/or proposition with the Spurs. Sure, for some that will matter, but I think that a lot of people would open up their wallets to see a NFL game.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not optimistic in the least.

I don't think it's going to happen.

Just throwing out ideas as to how it could work.

[Marcus Bryant]

I think a NFL team has a better chance of breaking into Austin than the Spurs have had, especially at the corporate level.

When all you are selling are 8 games a season, I think that's a lot more palatable. Also, the games will be almost exclusively weekend games. Plenty of opportunity for the 'weekend getaway' down the road to SA.

Could work, at least better than in NO.

[j-6]

This whole situation is going to revolve around one major date, and what Tags, Benson, Hardberger, and other owners such as Al Davis and Jerry Jones will do after such date passes.

November 19, 2005. If the Saints use the destruction clause to opt out of their standing lease with the state of Louisiana's stadium board, then the team is a bonafide free agent and New Orleans is completely out of the picture.

A.D. Football, Inc., the Raider's managing entity, claims to hold some sort of territorial stake in LA. If a move to LA is planned for the Saints, will he pull up stakes in Oakland and try to get to the City of Angels first? Can he?

Will Jerry Jones, and to a lesser extent Bob McNair, agree to have yet another competing team in their state? And will Tags approve of the last two major league changes (with the Texans expansion in '02) happening in the same region?

[TheWriter]

#1: The Alamodome has 38 finished suites, with space to build an additional 28.

#2: When/If Benson claims force majeure, where do all of ya'lls "He's just playing San Antonio" talk go?

#3: LOL at all these Miss Cleo's posting in this thread.

#4: No damn way a stadium is built along I-35 in another metro county.

#5: Why not build a new stadium in the Quarry the Spurs wanted to their arena in. In northeast San Antonio.

[Extra Stout]

Indianapolis is closer to Chicago than SA is to Houston, right? It's like a little under three hours in the car.It's in a different state, however. And its per capita income is about 15% higher.


With Tennessee as their name and not Nashville, I figure the Titans are supposed to appeal to a regional following like Carolina.I guess. Without regional support, it's hard to figure how Nashville can support a team.

On the one hand, SA is a better market than Jacksonville, New Orleans, and Buffalo, to be sure. On the other hand, Los Angeles (obviously), Portland, and even Salt Lake City are better markets than San Antonio.

Even with all that, if a stadium is sufficiently lavish, it can make all this talk about market size sort of a moot point. Georgia Frontiere left L.A. for St. Louis because of the stadium. Bud Adams left Houston for Nashville because of the stadium. If San Antonio could come up with a football palace rather than trying to see how little it can spend to spruce up the Alamodome, or how much of the costs in can foist upon others, it wouldn't matter what Portland or New Orleans or anybody else was doing, and even Paul Tagliabue would have to change his tune.

[TheWriter]

I don't think you can under estimate what kind of state incentive package the Gov throws at Benson. Not to mention whatever SA throws to him.

I think this study the city is doing will help a great deal. Like Hardberger said, if for every dollar you spend you get 3 dollars back, it doesn't freakin' matter how much you spend.

[Marcus Bryant]

Benson seems to be looking for the best stadium deal out there. I agree that terminating the lease is significant, but that has to be coupled with the prospect of a new stadium in Louisiana not being in the works. If Louisiana state govt has their shit together, then SA's hopes dim. But if it is clear that a new stadium won't get past the planning stages for years, that's all SA needs.

At the league level, who knows? I would think that most owners would want the right to move their teams as they see fit.

I think a lot is riding on SA being proactive and putting together an attractive deal for the Saints to use the Alamodome for the next few years as well as to get a new stadium plan in the works.

[j-6]

The attendance and Dome record crowd of 65,562 yesterday, while a good-sized crowd, would have been only 1,400 over the 64,147 the Saints averaged in the Superdome in '04 at an average of 87.9% capacity.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance?year=2004

(I'm not looking for the television market argument we've had over the last month or so...just thought that was an interesting statistic.)

[Marcus Bryant]

#1: The Alamodome has 38 finished suites, with space to build an additional 28.

#2: When/If Benson claims force majeure, where do all of ya'lls "He's just playing San Antonio" talk go?

Still there. Benson's been trying to get a new stadium out of Louisiana for a while now.



#3: LOL at all these Miss Cleo's posting in this thread.


Pot meet kettle.



#4: No damn way a stadium is built along I-35 in another metro county.


Then you'd have to hope that SA can support the team on its own.



#5: Why not build a new stadium in the Quarry the Spurs wanted to their arena in. In northeast San Antonio.

Wouldn't that be over the recharge zone?

[Marcus Bryant]

The attendance and Dome record crowd of 65,562 yesterday, while a good-sized crowd, would have been only 1,400 over the 64,147 the Saints averaged in the Superdome in '04 at an average of 87.9% capacity.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance?year=2004

(I'm not looking for the television market argument we've had over the last month or so...just thought that was an interesting statistic.)


Hmmm....you'd have to account for any difference in ticket prices as well as suite revenues and the subsidy the Saints have been getting from the state to come up with a good comparison of the difference in stadium revenues.

There's also stadium signage revenues.

[Extra Stout]

Well isn't that a horrible pain in the ass fans won't put up with? Oh wait -- they do. So having a huge lot around a stadium would be worse in that respect? Yes, I can see the anger now.Many folks get around it by coming in Friday night and getting a hotel room, or by parking in another lot elsewhere on campus and walking, or by parking elsewhere downtown and walking. There are options. You can pretend that it's one way in and one way out as long as you like, but it's bullshit.

In a greenfield facility outside any major city with no surface streets and little to no overflow parking, and few hotel rooms nearby, the options dwindle. Either you sit in traffic all the way from 1604 going northbound or Ben White Blvd. going southbound on Sunday morning to the one exit for the stadium, or you don't go.

So take the traffic jam around DKR-Memorial and double it at least, for a newcomer team without an established fan base.

If you were a prospective Austin fan, which would you rather do: sit in traffic for hours to get to San Marcos as traffic backs up from that one exit to the stadium, or deal with considerably less traffic on a trip that is longer distance-wise but comparable time-wise into downtown SA where you have plenty of options to get downtown and find parking?

[Marcus Bryant]

I think Austin fan will go down to SA once or twice a season to see a game. Probably make it a weekend.

[Extra Stout]

#1: The Alamodome has 38 finished suites, with space to build an additional 28.More is better.


#2: When/If Benson claims force majeure, where do all of ya'lls "He's just playing San Antonio" talk go?He can go wherever he wants, at least until he goes bankrupt.


#4: No damn way a stadium is built along I-35 in another metro county.Agreed.


#5: Why not build a new stadium in the Quarry the Spurs wanted to their arena in. In northeast San Antonio.Talk to NEISD. If they hadn't gotten bent out of shape about the tax abatement, that's where SBC Center would be.

[ShoogarBear]

I think a NFL team has a better chance of breaking into Austin than the Spurs have had, especially at the corporate level.

When all you are selling are 8 games a season, I think that's a lot more palatable. Also, the games will be almost exclusively weekend games. Plenty of opportunity for the 'weekend getaway' down the road to SA.

Could work, at least better than in NO.

I'd bet that any business analysis will demonstrate that it's not just desirable, but imperative for any South Texas franchise to have significant support from the Austin market.

Just as a WAG, it wouldn't surprise me if anywhere between 20 to 40% of the attendance revenue for a sucessful team would be dependent on Austin.

[TheWriter]

Wouldn't that be over the recharge zone?

Nope. The recharge zone is in Northwest San Antonio/Bexar.

This Quarry is in the North east side off of Wurzbach Parkway.

[j-6]

#1: The Alamodome has 38 finished suites, with space to build an additional 28.

Doesn't Tags want at least 100? Any ideas on how to shoehorn 35 or so more in the Dome without negatively affecting attendence?


#2: When/If Benson claims force majeure, where do all of ya'lls "He's just playing San Antonio" talk go?

Then a bunch of us either need to chip in and buy you a first-edition 2006 Mapsco with Phil Hardberger's autograph, or start a longer thread bitching about the Los Angeles Saints.


#3: LOL at all these Miss Cleo's posting in this thread.

LOL at you making fun of anyone of us that are wanting the Saints to stick around.


#4: No damn way a stadium is built along I-35 in another metro county.

If that's what it's going to take to have the franchise relocate to the area, someone on the corridor will have the foresight to present this option. With an eye on how it will benefit whatever county this could be it and how they could benefit as well, of course.


#5: Why not build a new stadium in the Quarry the Spurs wanted to their arena in. In northeast San Antonio.

Not a bad idea, but who's going to pay for it?

[TheWriter]

I think San Antonio voted in the best possible man for the job in terms of getting a team to San Antonio.

Hardberger is not only a John Wayne type guy, he's friends with both Benson and McCombs.

[j-6]

There's also stadium signage revenues.

Speaking of which, anyone at the game yesterday know what logos by the play clocks were covered up, and why?

[Marcus Bryant]

I'd bet that any business analysis will demonstrate that it's not just desirable, but imperative for any South Texas franchise to have significant support from the Austin market.

Just as a WAG, it wouldn't surprise me if anywhere between 20 to 40% of the attendance revenue for a sucessful team would be dependent on Austin.


The one thing a SA-based NFL team would have going for it is that the there are only 8 games in a season...on the weekend. Season ticket packages don't look that bad. I think this is a significant factor that hurts the Spurs in Austin. Who wants to have to think about 41 games a season with at least 2/3rds of those games on a weeknight?

So a season ticket would be 8 games a season. You'd have to figure that most people would go to something less than 8 games a season. But at least you can sell them the full 8.

[Extra Stout]

I don't think you can under estimate what kind of state incentive package the Gov throws at Benson. Not to mention whatever SA throws to him.The state is not a magic money pit. Citizens outside of S.A. are going to go berserk if the governor talks about using tax money to subsidize a stadium deal. I know I would. If S.A. wants a team, let S.A. pay for it. Don't tell people in Dallas and Houston to pay for it. They've got their own teams and don't give a shit whether S.A. has one or not.


I think this study the city is doing will help a great deal. Like Hardberger said, if for every dollar you spend you get 3 dollars back, it doesn't freakin' matter how much you spend.Stadia only generate revenue if they are part of a larger development initiative, a la Coors Field and LoDo in downtown Denver, or Petco Park and the Gaslamp Quarter in San Diego.

If S.A. wanted to build a stadium smack dab in the middle of downtown in a place where they could get that many more people to spend time and money downtown, and simultaneously have developers invest to put even more restaurants and shopping and other attractions down there, that could work. But it seems that everybody freaks out at that those kinds of proposals.

Likewise, if a stadium were built around the Quarry, and developers had a plan to expand the area to serve the huge influx of people before and after the game, that could be a workable plan. But everybody has to be on the same page.

In and of themselves, stadia don't make any money. If you build one in a crappy industrial part of town, people will drive in to the game, and leave right afterward. SBC Center is a prime example.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, in addition to coming up with the financing for a stadium, San Antonio de Bexar would have to find a way not to fuck up the location of it.

[Marcus Bryant]

The state is not a magic money pit. Citizens outside of S.A. are going to go berserk if the governor talks about using tax money to subsidize a stadium deal. I know I would. If S.A. wants a team, let S.A. pay for it. Don't tell people in Dallas and Houston to pay for it. They've got their own teams and don't give a shit whether S.A. has one or not.

There might be a way for the state to offer some "incentives" for the relocation itself. But yeah, the prospect for permanent incentives seems iffy.



Stadia only generate revenue if they are part of a larger development initiative, a la Coors Field and LoDo in downtown Denver, or Petco Park and the Gaslamp Quarter in San Diego.

If S.A. wanted to build a stadium smack dab in the middle of downtown in a place where they could get that many more people to spend time and money downtown, and simultaneously have developers invest to put even more restaurants and shopping and other attractions down there, that could work. But it seems that everybody freaks out at that those kinds of proposals.

Likewise, if a stadium were built around the Quarry, and developers had a plan to expand the area to serve the huge influx of people before and after the game, that could be a workable plan. But everybody has to be on the same page.

In and of themselves, stadia don't make any money. If you build one in a crappy industrial part of town, people will drive in to the game, and leave right afterward. SBC Center is a prime example.


Couldn't agree more. 'Economic development' arguments for stadiums in lower income neighborhoods crack me up. About the only thing you get are people making beer money by opening up their backyards for parking lots on game night.

I'm not sure where you could site a stadium downtown that would help to both spur development as well as capitalize on the old.

[ShoogarBear]

So a season ticket would be 8 games a season. You'd have to figure that most people would go to something less than 8 games a season. But at least you can sell them the full 8.

Actually, it's 10, including the mandatory preseason games included in the season ticket package.

[TheWriter]

I'm not sure where you could site a stadium downtown that would help to both spur development as well as capitalize on the old.

Southtown area. but then you'd have tons of NIMBY's protesting.

But there's areas in the downtown area where a stadium could be built with maybe a parking structure instead of a surface parking lot.

[Marcus Bryant]

Hemisfair Plaza seems like a good place to start.

[Marcus Bryant]

Shit, the city ended up with a NBA franchise by going through the backdoor and without the league being overjoyed at the prospect. Might as well do it again. I don't see McCombs shelling out $700 mil like McNair did to put a franchise in SA.

Benson is SA's only hope for at least the next decade.

[TheWriter]

HemisFair seems like a good place to start.

Hemisfair is all Convention Center, Park, and Tower. No room for a NFL stadium.

And actually, the Park is being revitialized. As well as the Riverwalk being expanded into the Park.

[Extra Stout]

I'd bet that any business analysis will demonstrate that it's not just desirable, but imperative for any South Texas franchise to have significant support from the Austin market.

Just as a WAG, it wouldn't surprise me if anywhere between 20 to 40% of the attendance revenue for a sucessful team would be dependent on Austin.
If you put San Antonio and Austin together, the resulting market probably would be the most desirable in the country not currently serviced by an NFL team, excluding Los Angeles.

If you multiply MSA population and per capita income, San Antonio and Austin are roughly equal.

But putting those two together is difficult because they are 75 miles apart, and there is still a big geographical gap between the two metro areas; they are nowhere near contiguous. And, getting Austin to support an NFL team in addition to UT football would be a big challenge.

Once you get into the Round Rock area, a team would be competing with the Cowboys for the same football fans.

So, is it truly realistic to count upon the Austin market?

[Marcus Bryant]

Actually, it's 10, including the mandatory preseason games included in the season ticket package.

True. To really hit the Austin market, you'd have to also have a lot of coordination between the franchise and the local hotels and theme parks. Make sure every hotel has a "Saints Shuttle" running on game days.

Free/discount admission to Sea World and Fiesta Texas. Golf packages at La Cantera with season tix, etc.

[Marcus Bryant]

Hemisfair is all Convention Center, Park, and Tower. No room for a NFL stadium.

And actually, the Park is being revitialized. As well as the Riverwalk being expanded into the Park.


Doesn't sound like anything too important. Site the stadium as part of the complex with the river and Tower being incorporated into the design.

[j-6]

I'd like to think that SA's Joe SixPacks would rather see an NFL stadium than a park and some other landscaping and the old convention center on the Hemisfair grounds.

[TheWriter]

Doesn't sound like anything too important. Site the stadium as part of the complex with the river and Tower being incorporated into the design.

Do you not understand Hemisfair?

It's Convention Center and Park, with the Tower being in the park.

No way is anything being built on the part the size of stadium.

Buildings on the site of the part ar either being razed for more park space or converted into things like a children's museum.

And the park is pretty damn important.

[ShoogarBear]

So, is it truly realistic to count upon the Austin market?

I don't know if it's realistic. What I believe is that it's financially unworkable unless there is significant support from Austin. I just don't think there are the bucks in SA alone to support, say, 70,000 seats with 100 luxury boxes x 10 games/year x 5 years with a sucky team.

[TheWriter]

I'd like to think that SA's Joe SixPacks would rather see an NFL stadium than a park and some other landscaping and the old convention center on the Hemisfair grounds.

Well Joe SixPacks can go fuck himself. As well as Johnny Couchpatato.

[Marcus Bryant]

Do you not understand Hemisfair?

It's Convention Center and Park, with the Tower being in the park.

No way is anything being built on the part the size of stadium.

Buildings on the site of the part ar either being razed for more park space or converted into things like a children's museum.

And the park is pretty damn important.


Yes I understand Hemisfair. There is room if someone has the balls to make it happen.

[Marcus Bryant]

Well Joe SixPacks can go fuck himself. As well as Johnny Couchpatato.


Highest and best use.

[TheWriter]

I don't know if it's realistic. What I believe is that it's financially unworkable unless there is significant support from Austin. I just don't think there are the bucks in SA alone to support, say, 70,000 seats with 100 luxury boxes x 10 games/year x 5 years with a sucky team.

There's enough money in San Antonio to fill the seats, the only variable is those damn suites.

[TheWriter]

Yes I understand Hemisfair. There is room if someone has the balls to make it happen.

Ain't gonna happen. The park is too damn important.

Quit being a jackass.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't know if it's realistic. What I believe is that it's financially unworkable unless there is significant support from Austin. I just don't think there are the bucks in SA alone to support, say, 70,000 seats with 100 luxury boxes x 10 games/year x 5 years with a sucky team.


Yep. The Texans couldn't fill a home season opener despite having a marquee opponent in a metro area with a population of 4 million or whatever. Fuckers also left the roof open on a 100 degree September day (125 on the field) in Houston, Texas.

[j-6]

Well Joe SixPacks can go fuck himself. As well as Johnny Couchpatato.

Dude, it's not like we're discussing demolition of some of the Spanish missions. It's a park and an ancient convention center. Turn the Alamodome into the new Henry B or something.

(I guess I don't understand Hemisfair either.)

[Marcus Bryant]

Ain't gonna happen. The park is too damn important.

Quit being a jackass.


Not as important as landing a NFL franchise. You can keep the Tower, the Riverwalk extension and the Convention Center.

You do want to see San Antonio de Bexar progress and not regress, right?

[TheWriter]

Dude, it's not like we're discussing demolition of some of the Spanish missions. It's a park and an ancient convention center.

The convention center isn't ancient, they damn thing was expanded a few years ago.

[Marcus Bryant]

The convention center isn't ancient, they damn thing was expanded a few years ago.


Well there you go. You'd have a stadium + convention center all in one complex. You'd have some unique features to the property with the Tower and Riverwalk.

[TheWriter]

Not as important as landing a NFL franchise. You can keep the Tower, the Riverwalk extension and the Convention Center.

You do want to see San Antonio de Bexar progress and not regress, right?

Its park land, you don't build on park land. You don't build skyscrapers on park land, you build them on surface parking lots.

There's enough land else where in downtown. The best case would be in NoDo near the River.

[Marcus Bryant]

Nah. The park makes the best sense. It isn't a National Monument.

[TheWriter]

Well there you go. You'd have a stadium + convention center all in one complex. You'd have some unique features to the property with the Tower and Riverwalk.

Unless you're building up and plan to have 5th story seating, there's not enough land to even support something the size of the Dome let alone a structure that will probably be double the size.

[Marcus Bryant]

Sure there is. Condemn and progress, baby.

[j-6]

I don't understand this. This park and this convention center are more important than a National Football League franchise's stadium?

WTF?

[TheWriter]

I get it assholes, pulling my chain.

[Extra Stout]

S.A. could always give Buddy Holly an apopletic orgasm and execute his I-37 tunneling/HemisFair expansion dream in conjunction with an Alamodome renovation.

[Marcus Bryant]

I don't understand this. This park and this convention center are more important than a National Football League franchise's stadium?

WTF?


Exactly. Plus it's not like the Convention Center couldn't be incorporated into the plan.

Man, that'd be an ideal scenario.

[TheWriter]

S.A. could always give Buddy Holly an apopletic orgasm and execute his I-37 tunneling/HemisFair expansion dream in conjunction with an Alamodome renovation.

Hell yeah, tunnel that damn thing. That's fucking ideal.

You tunnel the downtown segment of 37 and then you could build a new stadium almost anywhere.

[Extra Stout]

Dude, it's not like we're discussing demolition of some of the Spanish missions. It's a park and an ancient convention center. Turn the Alamodome into the new Henry B or something.

(I guess I don't understand Hemisfair either.)

Mission, schmission. We're talking NFL football here! Imagine... Stadium San Jose Sponsored by Hooters.

Make it happen!

[Marcus Bryant]

You know what would be so fitting in San Antonio? Put a fucking sheet metal roof over Alamo Stadium.

[TheWriter]

You know what would be so fitting in San Antonio? Put a fucking sheet metal roof over Alamo Stadium.

The Rock House? :lol :lol

Marcus will be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress.

[Marcus Bryant]

Shit, if some people seriously thought the Freeman was a good enough home for the Spurs back in '99, anything's possible.

[TheWriter]

Shit, if some people seriously thought the Freeman was a good enough home for the Spurs back in '99, anything's possible.

I'm sure some other group of braindead tards thought a high school gym would have been good enough.

Doesn't mean I will generalize an entire city because of those 'tards.

[Extra Stout]

Hell yeah, tunnel that damn thing. That's fucking ideal.

You tunnel the downtown segment of 37 and then you could build a new stadium almost anywhere.

With Porky Dubya in the White House... now's the time to do it. Fabricate a feasibility study showing it will make a gazillion dollars.

Then the feds pick up, what 80 or 90% of the cost of burying the freeway? Now that would be impressively galling... get the feds to do it so that folks in Los Angeles subsidize getting S.A. a football team with their income tax dollars.*

Mayor Hardberger could have gotten his very own "Fleecing of America" segment on NBC Nightly News.

Too bad this didn't happen a year ago, or it could have been crammed into the Super-Bacon-Loaded Highway Bill.

*Or, not. In reality, it would be the Chinese financing the new stadium, and our grandchildren paying them back with interest. But, whatever.

[Marcus Bryant]

Doesn't mean I will generalize an entire city because of those 'tards.

Well, I will. How does the vote on a new arena for a team that just won a NBA title, with the team leaving town if it didn't get a new arena, with the team playing in a football stadium, with the team being the only pro team in town, with the current best arena venue having been built in 1876, with the arena paid for with a tourist tax plus a significant naming rights deal....get less than 60% in the affirmative?

Puro San Antonio.

[Extra Stout]

Well, I will. How does the vote on a new arena for a team that just won a NBA title, with the team leaving town if it didn't get a new arena, with the team playing in a football stadium, with the team being the only pro team in town, with the arena paid for with a tourist tax plus a significant naming rights deal....get less than 60% in the affirmative?

Puro San Antonio.San Antonio will be very enthusiastic about a new stadium for an NFL team...

...as long as somebody else pays for it.

Otherwise, the mentality will be, "Why can't they play in the Alamodome?"

You know it, I know it, Bob Dole knows it, everybody knows it.

[ShoogarBear]

There's enough money in San Antonio to fill the seats, the only variable is those damn suites.

Well, I'm not convinced, but we can probably do a napkin analysis. Some of the numbers I plug in may be wrong but the basic math should be okay:

Let's say 70K seats and 100 luxury boxes x 10 games/year.

Let's say average ticket price is $50/game (under the league average), but there's the personal seat license ripoff which effectively doubles the price for season tickets.

Let's say parking averages out to $5/person, and concessions average $10/person

So:
price per season ticket = ($50 x 2) x 10 = $1000
parking/concession = $15 x 10 = $150
TOTAL = $1150/season ticket per year

Now let's say there's a minimum requirement of 40K season tickets to be sold, and that all season tickets in average are sold in pairs.

So we need to find, at minumum, 20K people who will pay $2300/year for NFL football. But more accurately we are trying to find 20K people willing to pay $11,500 for 5 years of NFL football.

We still need to sell the other seats. Let's require at a minumum that another 20K seats have to be sold per game at the same average prices (minus the seat license) as the season tickets. That means a total of 20K x 10 = 200K seats per year. Now let's say on average a fan who buys the walk-up seats will go to 2 games a year. So now we need to find 100K fans who are willing to pay ($50 +$15) x 2 = $130 per year.

Finally, let's us $70K as the yearly price of a luxury box (that's around the average cost of one at Lambeau Field). Let also say that at minimum, 80/100 of the boxes have to be sold.

So we need to find:
-20,000 people who can afford and are willing to pay $11.5K over 5 years
-100,000 people who can afford and are willing to pay $130 a year
-80 companies willing to spring $70K a year for boxes.

I'm sure that there must be statistical ways to estimate, based on median and distributional income ranges, what kind of population base and income you'll need to generate who will have that disposable income.

My hunch is that SA can provide the second group, but no way can it provide the first and third groups without help from Austin.

[TheWriter]

Well, I will. How does the vote on a new arena for a team that just won a NBA title, with the team leaving town if it didn't get a new arena, with the team playing in a football stadium, with the team being the only pro team in town, with the arena paid for with a tourist tax plus a significant naming rights deal....get less than 60% in the affirmative?

Puro San Antonio.

Fuck off loser.

You can generalize a city you seem to very envious of, sad really, all you want. Go look at any and all arena/stadium city votes and city what the outcome was. That was one of the biggest "yes" victories in sports arena/stadium voting ever.

Puro Jealously straight for the keyboard of poser McByrant. Who has nothing better to do than subtlety throw jabs at a city he doesn't like (although he does like their NBA team) and who is so envious of said city because most likely Benson isn't contacted to the city 70 miles northeast of here nor did he settle his team there.

Right?

Now I’ll wait for MB’s pseudo-sophisticated, not very clever retort.

[TheWriter]

In a city of almost 2 million with a rapidly growing population and very fast growing economy, I see no problem in finding:


-20,000 people who can afford and are willing to pay $11.5K over 5 years
-100,000 people who can afford and are willing to pay $130 a year

This is the uncertainty.


-80 companies willing to spring $70K a year for boxes.

[Marcus Bryant]

Fuck off loser.

You can generalize a city you seem to very envious of, sad really, all you want. Go look at any and all arena/stadium city votes and city what the outcome was. That was one of the biggest "yes" victories in sports arena/stadium voting ever.

Puro Jealously straight for the keyboard of poser McByrant. Who has nothing better to do than subtlety throw jabs at a city he doesn't like (although he does like their NBA team) and who is so envious of said city because most likely Benson isn't contacted to the city 70 miles northeast of here nor did he settle his team there.

Right?

Now I’ll wait for MB’s pseudo-sophisticated, not very clever retort.


Whoa, this city love is making you stupid.

Actually I am quite fond of the city. Otherwise I wouldn't give a damn if it got a NFL franchise or not. But some things about it are too easy to poke fun at.

Once you lose the provincialism you'll get it.

[TheWriter]

In a one mile radius of the Quarry Market area, with a population of over 25,000, the avg. income is 94,000 dollars.

That's one example.

Now I'm not saying those people will buy tickets or that's 25,000 total that earn 94,000 (seeing how its population not family).

Edit: 94,000 not 97,000.

[Marcus Bryant]

link?

[TheWriter]

Whoa, this city love is making you stupid.

Actually I am quite fond of the city. Otherwise I wouldn't give a damn if it got a NFL franchise or not. But some things about it are too easy to poke fun at.

Once you lose the provincialism you'll get it.

Regurgitated material from Poser boy.

Don't give any of that bullcrap.

You care so much about this issue and making San Antonio look bad because you have an alternate motive.

[j-6]

Writerguy,

What have you done in the last couple of months to help support the city's effort to keep the Saints? Have you gone to a game? Bought any apparel? Attended the Saints in SA pep rally? Or just pasted Express-News and SA Business Journal articles onto this website (and your N-Sync forum as well, but that's your business), and waited for the realists to show up and start arguments?

Just curious.

[TheWriter]

link?

Of course, because San Antonio couldn't possibly have that kind of money. :rolleyes

Right?

[Marcus Bryant]

Regurgitated material from Poser boy.

Don't give any of that bullcrap.

You care so much about this issue and making San Antonio look bad because you have an alternate motive.

:spin

You take your mission too seriously. "Alternative motive"? Have I been signed by Ray Nagin to make SA look bad?

WTF?

[Marcus Bryant]

Of course, because San Antonio couldn't possibly have that kind of money. :rolleyes

Right?


No, just so that we are clear that it is indeed what you represent it to be.

[TheWriter]

Writerguy,

What have you done in the last couple of months to help support the city's effort to keep the Saints? Have you gone to a game? Bought any apparel? Attended the Saints in SA pep rally? Or just pasted Express-News and SA Business Journal articles onto this website (and your N-Sync forum as well, but that's your business), and waited for the realists to show up and start arguments?

Just curious.

Went to the Falcons game yesterday and will more than likely go to the Christmas Eve game depending on my schedule (waits for the clever insults) to see if I can do it.

Have I bought any Saints apparel? No. It's not my team. If they do become the San Antonio Saints, sure, why not. But they're the New Orleans Saints.

[TheWriter]

link?

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA060505.1R.quarriesmain.2d62a0589.html

[j-6]

-20,000 people who can afford and are willing to pay $11.5K over 5 years
-100,000 people who can afford and are willing to pay $130 a year
-80 companies willing to spring $70K a year for boxes.



My hunch is that SA can provide the second group, but no way can it provide the first and third groups without help from Austin.

What does a Spurs season ticket cost on average? $3K for 45 games? And how many season ticket holders are there?

[Duff McCartney]

My tax money goes to bullshit causes already. I don't understand why people would whine any further about having more go to fund a football stadium.

People act like all their tax money goes to something that actually helps, when in reality it goes to garbage shit like building highways in Alaska that don't go anywhere and PORK.

[Marcus Bryant]

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA060505.1R.quarriesmain.2d62a0589.html


Wrong link.

[TheWriter]

What does a Spurs season ticket cost on average? $3K for 45 games? And how many season ticket holders are there?

Over 10k I believe, not sure the exact number but I believe its 10k-15k.

[Marcus Bryant]

What does a Spurs season ticket cost on average? $3K for 45 games? And how many season ticket holders are there?

I'd think something closer to 2 grand. At most you are talking about what, 8k season tix?

[TheWriter]

Wrong link.

You're right. Hold up.

[j-6]

Where in that link is household income listed? Or number of Quarry-area residents?

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA060505.1R.quarriesmain.2d62a0589.html

[Marcus Bryant]

Jeez, this is just a forum on the internets for nutjob Spurs fans. I didn't realize what was discussed here had such an effect on the local community.

[TheWriter]

Here ya go:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA061005.01D.Quarry_development.2faa70403.html

[TheWriter]

Where in that link is household income listed? Or number of Quarry-area residents?

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA060505.1R.quarriesmain.2d62a0589.html

Wrong link.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/business/stories/MYSA061005.01D.Quarry_development.2faa70403.html

[TheWriter]

Here's the quote from the article:

"More than 240,000 people work within 5 miles of the location, and average income in the surrounding one-mile area is nearly $94,000."

[Marcus Bryant]

So where's the support for the # of people who live in the 1 mile area?

[TheWriter]

So where's the support for the # of people live who live in the 1 mile area?

The Quarry Market is in the 78209 zip code.

Did a quick search and in the 78209 zip code there are 40,675 people in a 10 sq. mile area (as of 2000).

[Marcus Bryant]

So you just grew it to 50k and cut it in half.

[TheWriter]

http://www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/qsmr3.jpg

http://www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/qsmr2.jpg

http://www.aerialperspectives.net/aerials/qsmr1.jpg

[TheWriter]

So you just grew it to 50k and cut it in half.

Nope. Never new what the 78209 population was.

But the 78209 zip code extends easternly while the Quarry is on the north western front of this zipcode.

The one mile radius includes several other zip codes.

[Marcus Bryant]

Also, that seems a bit high for a per capita income figure.

[Marcus Bryant]

Nope. Never new what the 78209 population was.

But the 78209 zip code extends easternly while the Quarry is on the north western front of this zipcode.

The one mile radius includes several other zip codes.


So it just came to you.

[TheWriter]

Also, that seems a bit high for a per capita income figure.

What seems high?

Oh yeah, San Antonio doesn't have that kind of money, right? :rolleyes :rolleyes

Two roll eyes this time.

[TheWriter]

So it just came to you.

What came to me?

[Marcus Bryant]

What seems high?

Oh yeah, San Antonio doesn't have that kind of money, right? :rolleyes :rolleyes

Two roll eyes this time.


What? If you take a one mile radius from the Quarry and capture that swath of SA then yeah, a $94k per capita income does seem kind of high, even with you snagging a good number of 09ers.

[Marcus Bryant]

What came to me?

Then how did you arrive at that figure? Stroke your dick while thinking of the St. Mary's Oyster Bake and let it hit the keys on a calculator?

[TheWriter]

What? If you take a one mile radius from the Quarry and capture that swath of SA then yeah, a $94k per capita income does seem kind of high, even with you snagging a good number of 09ers.


:rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

[Marcus Bryant]

:lol

This is San Antonio we are talking about, not your mother. Relax.

[TheWriter]

Then how did you arrive at that figure? Stroke your dick while thinking of the St. Mary's Oyster Bake and let it point it hit the keys on a calculator?

Did I make you made? Did I inform you of something you didn't want to hear?

Poor baby. It's ok.

[Marcus Bryant]

Did I make you made? Did I inform you of something you didn't want to hear?

Poor baby. It's ok.


You posted a number and you have yet to provide any kind of substantiation for it. This isn't hard, man. What's the source?

[TheWriter]

:lol

This is San Antonio we are talking about, not your mother. Relax.

I'll relax when you take yourself out of San Antonio's affaires and not to mention speak on it as if you have any idea whatsoever what the hell you’re saying.

[TheWriter]

You posted a number and you have yet to provide any kind of substantiation for it. This isn't hard, man. What's the source?

My source was a Quarry article that I can no longer locate.

But seeing how I've proven myself true to you atleast when you've asked me to "prove" all my statements with "links."

I really don't need to prove my claims to you atleast.

Of course, even if I did you find something to turn into a negative.

[Marcus Bryant]

That $94K figure is probably a household income figure.

Here's a random site but it's one more link than San Antonihomer has provided....

http://www.city-data.com/zips/78209.html

According to that, the 78209 household income in 1999 was $46k, across a population of 40 grand.

[Marcus Bryant]

I'll relax when you take yourself out of San Antonio's affaires and not to mention speak on it as if you have any idea whatsoever what the hell you’re saying.

Ha. I've actually done economic impact studies. You? Posted pics on the internets and quoted non-substantiated data.

[Marcus Bryant]

My source was a Quarry article that I can no longer locate.

But seeing how I've proven myself true to you atleast when you've asked me to "prove" all my statements with "links."

I really don't need to prove my claims to you atleast.

Of course, even if I did you find something to turn into a negative.


So you have no source.

[ShoogarBear]

In a city of almost 2 million with a rapidly growing population and very fast growing economy, I see no problem in finding:

-20,000 people who can afford and are willing to pay $11.5K over 5 years
-100,000 people who can afford and are willing to pay $130 a year


Well, this is where we disagree. I think you have to have Austin.

But I'm sure that, instead of our opinions, there are actually validated ways of figuring out how many people you have who can afford it. Probably goes something like:

x% times number of incomes over $100K
y% times number of incomes between $50K-100K
z% times number of incomes less than $50K

The other thing that will have to be put into the equation is the number of people who buy Spurs tickets. On one hand, they represent the group most likely to buy sports tickets, on the other some will be able to afford the Spurs OR NFL but not both.

[Marcus Bryant]

I'd say the entire 78209 zip includes a fairly affluent part of SA. If the household income in that was only in the $40s in '99 then it's likely that the $94k figure was a household income figure for the 1 mile radius.

[ShoogarBear]

BTW, I also found that $94K number to be eye-raisingly high. I'd really be interested in the distribution of income for the entire San Antonio metropolitan area vs. that of Austin.

[TheWriter]

That $94K figure is probably a household income figure.

Here's a random site but it's one more link than San Antonihomer has provided....

http://www.city-data.com/zips/78209.html

According to that, the 78209 household income in 1999 was $46k, across a population of 40 grand.

That's a 10 sq mile area.

We're talking about a 1 mile radius (you know circle) from the Quarry Market. Which includes not only the 78209 zip code but others.

[TheWriter]

I'd say the entire 78209 zip includes a fairly affluent part of SA. If the household income in that was only in the $40s in '99 then it's likely that the $94k figure was a household income figure for the 1 mile radius.

I never said it was a per capita income.

[TheWriter]

So you have no source.

I posted enough. I posted the income, the 1 mile.

Hey, why don't you do some google searching?

[Marcus Bryant]

Here is what was typed:


In a one mile radius of the Quarry Market area, with a population of over 25,000, the avg. income is 94,000 dollars.

That's one example.

Now I'm not saying those people will buy tickets or that's 25,000 total that earn 94,000 (seeing how its population not family).

Edit: 94,000 not 97,000.

[Rescueone]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v699/jalbre6/gt.jpg



How many NFL markets rank below SA? Jacksonville, NO, Buffalo, and maybe Indianapolis? Kansas City? I don't think I can include Green Bay due to Milwaukee.


Dude,

I don't think Indy is a small market. with Buffalo, everyone is forgetting Rochester, Syracuse, Niagara Falls, Western PA, parts of Ohio and Canada as part of their fan base. It's a bigger market than what's reported. Kansas City is up there as well. The Only markets that are small is Green Bay and New Orleans.

[Marcus Bryant]

I posted enough. I posted the income, the 1 mile.

Hey, why don't you do some google searching?


Yeah, you posted it and you have no source for it.

[TheWriter]

Yeah, you posted it and you have no source for it.

I gave the MYSA cource for the 94,000 and 1 mile radius facts.

The 25,000 people number is true but yes I don't have a link for you. Too bad, now you can't find a way to flip it.

[Marcus Bryant]

So you don't have a source for it. What is so fucking hard to understand?

[TheWriter]

Dude,

I don't think Indy is a small market. with Buffalo, everyone is forgetting Rochester, Syracuse, Niagara Falls, Western PA, parts of Ohio and Canada as part of their fan base. It's a bigger market than what's reported. Kansas City is up there as well. The Only markets that are small is Green Bay and New Orleans.

If you're including all that for Buffalo, a CMSA with San Antonio would be near 4 million as of right now. Not to mention the RGV with another 2 million.

[TheWriter]

So you don't have a source for it. What is so fucking hard to understand?

No, again, sucks for you. Now you have nothing to spin.

[Marcus Bryant]

WTF? You cited a non-existent source. Try again.

[TheWriter]

WTF? You cited a non-existent source. Try again.

No, it exists.

And like I said, you're hating the fact I can't find it because you have nothing to spin negatively. :lol

[Marcus Bryant]

The burden of proof rests on you.