Will Chris Paul end being an underrated legend?

[apalisoc_9]

He has one of the best regular season metric ever and is one of the very few guards that has truly played at an MVP level for multiple years.

His counting stats fail him and hes obviously not white Like Nash.


but there isnt a lot of players out there that can sustain this level of competiivness let alone a PG.

[Clipper Nation]

CP0 is one of the most overrated players of all time, tbh. His legacy will be as a playoff choker who spent his career padding stats and turning his teammates into scapegoats.

[StrengthAndHonor]

Paul is definitely underrated. All advance metrics and raw statistics supports Paul as a better point Magic.

[RsxPiimp]

Paul is definitely underrated. All advance metrics and raw statistics supports Paul as a better point Magic.

wut? :lol

[dfens]

Paul is definitely underrated. All advance metrics and raw statistics supports Paul as a better point Magic.

son magic had a ~20 usage rate and put up monster statlines, and had the size to play all positions, which is invaluable. CP3 is a great player and he is underrated but his usage rate is absurd for winning basketball ... tbh he is far from magic.

[apalisoc_9]

son magic had a ~20 usage rate and put up monster statlines, and had the size to play all positions, which is invaluable. CP3 is a great player and he is underrated but his usage rate is absurd for winning basketball ... tbh he is far from magic.

Which makes AIDS even more overrated.

AIDS Was basically a system player.

Carried by Kareem and James Worthy :lol

[Killakobe81]

son magic had a ~20 usage rate and put up monster statlines, and had the size to play all positions, which is invaluable. CP3 is a great player and he is underrated but his usage rate is absurd for winning basketball ... tbh he is far from magic.

this as I said the best PGs ...dont dominate the ball the way he does. He is gifted and i think he makes players better but he doesnt seem to enjoy it as much if he is not the one creating which is why he and Blake did not mesh as well as they should have outside the lob city stuff. its why Blake thrives when Paul gets hurt ...he never truly figured out how to share playmaking.

[apalisoc_9]

this as a said the best PGs ...dont dominate the ball the way he does. He is gifted and i think he makes players better but he doesnt seem to enjoy it ss much if he is not the one creating which is why he and Blake did not mesh as well as they should outside the lob city stuff. its why Blake thrives when Paul gets hurt ...

Homo is a system player. He played for a very stacked team

[Killakobe81]

Which makes AIDS even more overrated.

AIDS Was basically a system player.

Carried by Kareem and James Worthy :lol

Your logic and conclusions are flawed ...

[ambchang]

this as I said the best PGs ...dont dominate the ball the way he does. He is gifted and i think he makes players better but he doesnt seem to enjoy it as much if he is not the one creating which is why he and Blake did not mesh as well as they should have outside the lob city stuff. its why Blake thrives when Paul gets hurt ...he never truly figured out how to share playmaking.

If a PG, who's job is to direct offense, dominating the ball is bad thing, what makes you think a SG having a high usage rate is a good thing?

[ambchang]

Paul is definitely underrated. All advance metrics and raw statistics supports Paul as a better point Magic.


wut? :lol

It's a retarded take to sarcastically show that metrics are flawed to push for his love of the eye-test.

But then even that is wrong. Sure Chris Paul had two phenomenal seasons where he had 18.3 and 17.8 ws, both exceeding magic's career best, Magic had better overall seasons when the entire career is taken into account. Magic had stacked teams, and as such, would be responsible for less of the wins overall, but his career overall is clearly better than CP3s. Similar is true for VORP and BPM.

The reason for those "better" peak seasons is simply due to the way the systems are set up, and CP3 was the Hornets for a few years, where that led to nothing to show for, while Magic being the man on the Lakers led to two championships, arguably three.

[RsxPiimp]

son magic had a ~20 usage rate and put up monster statlines, and had the size to play all positions, which is invaluable. CP3 is a great player and he is underrated but his usage rate is absurd for winning basketball ... tbh he is far from magic.
booyah.

[Killakobe81]

If a PG, who's job is to direct offense, dominating the ball is bad thing, what makes you think a SG having a high usage rate is a good thing?

fuck, amb ... stay on topic ...
im old school a pg is supppsed to give unselfishly ...
scorers are supposed to score the player you are obsessed had known problems sharing ...
So isnt it more of a sin for a PG to have a similar usage rate to a shot hog?!

[Killakobe81]

cp3 had two ofcthe best rim runners and arguably two of the most athletic bigs while with the Clips
plus one of the better shooters off screens in recent years ...and a supposed hof coach while overrated great at inbound plays
the metrics say he should be a God level PG yet he couldbt even reach the WCF while a lessor PG like Dwill with less talent made the wcf in the same era iirc...

[Killakobe81]

my nicca amb is like my cousin that always brings up her ex ...
let it go, its been two years

[ambchang]

fuck, amb ... stay on topic ...
im old school a pg is supppsed to give unselfishly ...
scorers are supposed to score the player you are obsessed had known problems sharing ...
So isnt it more of a sin for a PG to have a similar usage rate to a shot hog?!

I wouldn't call that similar. We are talking about historical levels.


my nicca amb is like my cousin that always brings up her ex ...
let it go, its been two years

I rarely chime in on Westbrook but dude is overrated.

[Clipper Nation]

Paul is definitely underrated. All advance metrics and raw statistics supports Paul as a better point Magic.
:lmao

No doubt in my mind that Magic gets us at least one ring. CP0 couldn't even lead us past Round 2.

[Killakobe81]

:lmao

No doubt in my mind that Magic gets us at least one ring. CP0 couldn't even lead us past Round 2.

magic with healthy blake would, have been filthy the brst of showtime with Lobcity?!
reddick would be poor man's Byron and deandre would of been the big man version of Coop ...
plus magic had to share defer to past his prime but still deadly Kareem he would have no problem letting Blake do his thing ...

[Killakobe81]

I wouldn't call that similar. We are talking about historical levels.



I rarely chime in on Westbrook but dude is overrated.

westbrook is a PG or at least designated as one ... nice try ...you said SG ...stop acting feminine again ...
if Duncan is a PF than Russ is a PG by same standards

[apalisoc_9]

Out of topic, how high is Nance as a laker priority?

I watched the lakers a lot last year and he's a fantastic glue guy. Smart and hard working defensively, sets solid screens and is a decent passer.

I think he can be a legitimate 7th-8th guy for a championship team.

[Killakobe81]

Out of topic, how high is Nance as a laker priority?

I watched the lakers a lot last year and he's a fantastic glue guy. Smart and hard working defensively, sets solid screens and is a decent passer.

I think he can be a legitimate 7th-8th guy for a championship team.

agree he does all the little things Randle doesnt ... but he must stay healthy and improve his range ..

[apalisoc_9]

agree he dies all the littke things Randle doesnt but he must stay healthy and improve his range ..

He's never going to be able to improve his range. too much of a bigman game.

He's also in a weird spot because he's a PF and teams are moving away from big PFs.

Do you have any stats if he played any Center Last year and what were the numbers as a centre?

If he can play the C as a great screener and able passer, he can maybe crack the starting lineup for some teams..

I dont know.

[Killakobe81]

He's never going to be able to improve his range. too much of a bigman game.

He's also in a weird spot because he's a PF and teams are moving away from big PFs.

Do you have any stats if he played any Center Last year and what were the numbers as a centre?

If he can play the C as a great screener and able passer, he can maybe crack the starting lineup for some teams..

I dont know.

he played some center in small lineups his dunk onbhis new,teammate Lopez came with him as small ball center and when we play Dubs he does that a lot ...
dont buy he cannot improve his range fat Gasol Brook Lopez Draymond milsap etc all have done so ...

[dfens]

Which makes AIDS even more overrated.

AIDS Was basically a system player.

Carried by Kareem and James Worthy :lol

son I know your basketball takes need work so here is the football analogy:
magic is like zidane.. controls the game, get the stats, but doesn't stop the ball from moving while still having many individual moments. They can play with many systems or players and will always contribute without choking the rest of the team of possessions.
cp3 is like misty, more skilled individually (dribbling, moves, runs) but niggas need their own damn ball, cookie cutter systems to win and some stars might get annoyed with not getting touches :lmao

keep up the good work on this forum tbh :lol


this as I said the best PGs ...dont dominate the ball the way he does. He is gifted and i think he makes players better but he doesnt seem to enjoy it as much if he is not the one creating which is why he and Blake did not mesh as well as they should have outside the lob city stuff. its why Blake thrives when Paul gets hurt ...he never truly figured out how to share playmaking.

I vividly remember deron williams bodying cp3 because he understood cp3 was too attached to the ball.


Homo is a system player. He played for a very stacked team
won finals with injured kareem, a geriatric kareem and dragged a trash roster to the finals. he also won against historic teams although he had some stinkers.

[Clipper Nation]

How appropriate that CP0, a soft pussy who flops for a living, is being compared to a povertyball actress :lol

[Killakobe81]

son I know your basketball takes need work so here is the football analogy:
magic is like zidane.. controls the game, get the stats, but doesn't stop the ball from moving while still having many individual moments. They can play with many systems or players and will always contribute without choking the rest of the team of possessions.
cp3 is like misty, more skilled individually (dribbling, moves, runs) but niggas need their own damn ball, cookie cutter systems to win and some stars might get annoyed with not getting touches :lmao

keep up the good work on this forum tbh :lol



I vividly remember deron williams bodying cp3 because he understood cp3 was too attached to the ball.


won finals with injured kareem, a geriatric kareem and dragged a trash roster to the finals. he also won against historic teams although he had some stinkers.

very fair 84 was horrid ...and it waant the only stinker but he had more great ones than shitty ones

[lefty]

Even though he was not a PG, Bird was a better playmaker than Magic, really made great assists in tight spaces.

Magic's passing is overrated tbh, laser passes to teammates wiiiiiide open under the basket, unnecessary "no look" passes on 3 on 1 fast breaks.

Put a good tall defender like Rodman on him and he does nothing tbh.

Entry pass to Kareem, dribble dribble, sky hook, assit Magic :lol

CP3 makes DeContract Jordan look like an All Star :lol :worthy:

[apalisoc_9]

Even though he was not a PG, Bird was a better playmaker than Magic, really made great assists in tight spaces.

Magic's passing is overrated tbh, laser passes to teammates wiiiiiide open under the basket, unnecessary "no look" passes on 3 on 1 fast breaks.

Put a good tall defender like Rodman on him and he does nothing tbh.

Entry pass to Kareem, dribble dribble, sky hook, assit Magic :lol

CP3 makes DeContract Jordan look like an All Star :lol :worthy:

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/5I5s8.png

[Killakobe81]

Even though he was not a PG, Bird was a better playmaker than Magic, really made great assists in tight spaces.

Magic's passing is overrated tbh, laser passes to teammates wiiiiiide open under the basket, unnecessary "no look" passes on 3 on 1 fast breaks.

Put a good tall defender like Rodman on him and he does nothing tbh.

Entry pass to Kareem, dribble dribble, sky hook, assit Magic :lol

CP3 makes DeContract Jordan look like an All Star :lol :worthy:

shut your pie hole ...before Lebron Bird was the best passing SF ever ...
but he still aint as good a passer as magic.
your summary of his passing in favor of Paul's wide ass open lobs off pnr ...is akin to..
dat dumb ass Lonzo ball saying Future and Migos is better than Nas ...

[Killakobe81]

lonzo also said 21savage album better than jayz 4:44
hope plays better than his music choices ...
his girl is fine though...always liked female soccer players the non dyke ones ..

[Clipper Nation]

Tbh, Nas probably released the most garbage of all the acclaimed rappers. Other than Illmatic and a few singles here and there, his discography was weak. Jay was being generous with the "one hot album every ten year average" :lol

[Killakobe81]

Tbh, Nas probably released the most garbage of all the acclaimed rappers. Other than Illmatic and a few singles here and there, his discography was weak. Jay was being generous with the "one hot album every ten year average" :lol

he has a few stinkers his collabo with genuine he refises to ackowledge when he performs live .but stilmatic hip hop is dead and life is good would be classics for anyone in the game today outside kanye cole King Kendrick and maybe Drake.
jayz,has some garbage too including in my liftime vol 1...blueprint 2 kingdom come and the one before this one tbh 444 is real though as was his Kanye collabo ...black album blueprint 1, 3 black album and volume 2-3 are great albums. reasonable doubt a clasic but illmatic only built for cuban linx biggies albums midnight marsuders enter the 36, liwuid swords were all better tbh around that time the infamous by mobb deep and dmx its dark and hell is hot all better than doubt to me. of course cant forget snoop dre and outkast had better albums to start than jay he just did it well longer ...

[Fabbs]

I just hope CIA dumbass hasn't ruined Murray by forcing him to try to play just like CP0, Pops all time favorite pg.

[ambchang]

westbrook is a PG or at least designated as one ... nice try ...you said SG ...stop acting feminine again ...
if Duncan is a PF than Russ is a PG by same standards

Russ is a SG. Just like Duncan was a PF no matter what you list him as.

[Spurtacular]

CP0 is one of the most overrated players of all time, tbh. His legacy will be as a playoff choker who spent his career padding stats and turning his teammates into scapegoats.

[Spurtacular]

"end being"

Gimp still trying to pretend he's a fob after 10 years of message boarding :lmao

[ambchang]

Numbers wise, Chris Paul compares to players like Jerry West, Kobe Bryant, and Oscar Robertson, but the common knock on CP3 is that he never led his team past the second round.

When you compare him to players like the three mentioned, and use the ring argument, it's lazy. West went 1-8 in the finals when the league has like 8 teams. he finally broke through when Russell was old and he had the most staked team in NBA history. CP3 never had that type of team in his career, but some of that is his own doing (see later).

Kobe won 5 rings, and again, all stacked teams, 3 as a clear cut second banana, and 2 as the second banana numbers-wise. If CP3 played with prime Shaq, or the most dominating front line in the league and failed to ring, then the onus is on him, but Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan (not to mention Rivers as coach) is no MVPau/Odom/Bynum level of talent. Without that level of talent, Kobe not only didn't get past the 2nd round, he couldn't even get past the 1st.

Finally, the Big O really was the Big O (titles-wise) for most of his career, until he got Kareem, the GOAT before Jordan came along. He was a perennial loser until he got traded to the Bucks. He could lead the Royals anywhere during his prime.

The only player CP3 compares to numbers wise who won rings as the clear cut alpha was Magic. And Magic's teams were staaaaaaacked.

That said, CP3's teams were NOT stacked because of him, yes he hands out a lot of assists, but he dominates the ball all day every day. Stopping him in the playoffs is easy because he just take the ball out of his hands and his team stalls. Rivers should have developed some sort of offense outside of CP3 pounding the ball, such as having Griffin initiate a respectable offense.

Things would be different in Houston. It would be difficult to stop both CP3 and Harden as both of them are excellent in initiating the offense, the only question is whether D'antoni can put things together where both of them would be happy, get their share of touches, and can keep the defense guessing.

[Clipper Nation]

Rivers should have developed some sort of offense outside of CP3 pounding the ball, such as having Griffin initiate a respectable offense.

That would have required CP0 to willingly give up control, and that just wasn't going to happen. Like Peyton Manning was, he's an egomaniac who would rather lose his way than win and risk anyone else getting the credit.

[lefty]

That would have required CP0 to willingly give up control, and that just wasn't going to happen. Like Peyton Manning was, he's an egomaniac who would rather lose his way than win and risk anyone else getting the credit.

DeDunkey can't create his shot
Crawford is a 24/7 chucker
Reddick is a spot up shooter
Blake ain't bad when he is not injured

[Killakobe81]

Numbers wise, Chris Paul compares to players like Jerry West, Kobe Bryant, and Oscar Robertson, but the common knock on CP3 is that he never led his team past the second round.

When you compare him to players like the three mentioned, and use the ring argument, it's lazy. West went 1-8 in the finals when the league has like 8 teams. he finally broke through when Russell was old and he had the most staked team in NBA history. CP3 never had that type of team in his career, but some of that is his own doing (see later).

Kobe won 5 rings, and again, all stacked teams, 3 as a clear cut second banana, and 2 as the second banana numbers-wise. If CP3 played with prime Shaq, or the most dominating front line in the league and failed to ring, then the onus is on him, but Blake Griffin and DeAndre Jordan (not to mention Rivers as coach) is no MVPau/Odom/Bynum level of talent. Without that level of talent, Kobe not only didn't get past the 2nd round, he couldn't even get past the 1st.

Finally, the Big O really was the Big O (titles-wise) for most of his career, until he got Kareem, the GOAT before Jordan came along. He was a perennial loser until he got traded to the Bucks. He could lead the Royals anywhere during his prime.

The only player CP3 compares to numbers wise who won rings as the clear cut alpha was Magic. And Magic's teams were staaaaaaacked.

That said, CP3's teams were NOT stacked because of him, yes he hands out a lot of assists, but he dominates the ball all day every day. Stopping him in the playoffs is easy because he just take the ball out of his hands and his team stalls. Rivers should have developed some sort of offense outside of CP3 pounding the ball, such as having Griffin initiate a respectable offense.

Things would be different in Houston. It would be difficult to stop both CP3 and Harden as both of them are excellent in initiating the offense, the only question is whether D'antoni can put things together where both of them would be happy, get their share of touches, and can keep the defense guessing.

a lot of excuse making ... at his peak Blake gave u less polish but better transition finisbes and similar if not superior playmaking to prime Pau
Jordan has no low post game but is a better rebounder and rim protector than anyone Kobe played with post Shaq. The numbers say CP3 is a goat level PG yet he cant make WCF with that kind of help?! Sure magic had a stacked team but there isnt the 84 celts or 83 sixers in his path either ...
you can exagerrate all you want i loved that era but the Kobepau Lakers were no dominant force ... outside the Rox weakest repeat champion i have ever seen. No disrespect but that first title was almost all Hakeem ...

2008-2010 lakers loved them but they wrre far from stacked they had a versatile frontline kobe than ariza or artest ...Fishers old ass was our PG ...

[DeadlyDynasty]

Great player, but a career loser.

[ambchang]

a lot of excuse making ... at his peak Blake gave u less polish but better transition finisbes and similar if not superior playmaking to prime Pau
Jordan has no low post game but is a better rebounder and rim protector than anyone Kobe played with post Shaq. The numbers say CP3 is a goat level PG yet he cant make WCF with that kind of help?! Sure magic had a stacked team but there isnt the 84 celts or 83 sixers in his path either ...
you can exagerrate all you want i loved that era but the Kobepau Lakers were no dominant force ... outside the Rox weakest repeat champion i have ever seen. No disrespect but that first title was almost all Hakeem ...

2008-2010 lakers loved them but they wrre far from stacked they had a versatile frontline kobe than ariza or artest ...Fishers old ass was our PG ...

It's a joke trying to compare griffin and deandre to those other greats. Those two are all star caliber, not all time greats. And I not sure why you got things mixed up. You don't use shaq and Dandre. Ones the allhathe other is the third option. You compare Kobe with the likes of griffin and deandre.

As for MVPau, he was just a perfect fit, he's what griffin should work towards but wasn't able to. The other thing peoplekept overlooking was that it wasn't just MVPau, it's odom and Bynum as well that frontline was massive. Was it the weakest repeat champ? I'd agree with you that they are other than the rockets, and even that is debatable because the rockets didn't need a sudden surge of free throws in the four quarter to best a team missing its starting centre in a game 7.

[DMC]

Paul isn't just a loser - he's someone who actively seeks out a situation in which to lose on a big stage and avoids situations where he's expected to actually win past the 2nd round.

[TDMVPDPOY]

him and deron couldve been something special, the later got fat and unmotivated to improve...

both clowns

[Clipper Nation]

Paul isn't just a loser - he's someone who actively seeks out a situation in which to lose on a big stage and avoids situations where he's expected to actually win past the 2nd round.
He also makes sure to surround himself with easy scapegoats who the casual fan will blame for his teams' underachievement. Teaming up with Frauden is actually a genius move on CP0's part. Frauden's personality and game are so unappealing to the average fan that he will get all the blame for their playoff failures regardless of what actually happens.

[Killakobe81]

It's a joke trying to compare griffin and deandre to those other greats. Those two are all star caliber, not all time greats. And I not sure why you got things mixed up. You don't use shaq and Dandre. Ones the allhathe other is the third option. You compare Kobe with the likes of griffin and deandre.

As for MVPau, he was just a perfect fit, he's what griffin should work towards but wasn't able to. The other thing peoplekept overlooking was that it wasn't just MVPau, it's odom and Bynum as well that frontline was massive. Was it the weakest repeat champ? I'd agree with you that they are other than the rockets, and even that is debatable because the rockets didn't need a sudden surge of free throws in the four quarter to best a team missing its starting centre in a game 7.

wasnt comparing anyone to Shaq ..
Blake has absolutely had a comparable career to Pau ...i woild give Gasol the edge but at both their peaks a case can be easily made for Griffin who has two career highlight dunks on Pau ...even if one was a not called offensive foul. Agsin even if your argument is Kobe won becsuse of his versatile frontline ...we aint even asking gor Cp3 to rang ...all we are asking of Paul is to make the WCF. Dwill made it with Milsap and Boozer, Kiwi with Lasoftus and past his prime Gasol, Harden with Dwight etc
Stop makibg excuses he overdribbles and in the playoffs he is all world in games 1-4 but found wanting in games 5-7.

[ambchang]

wasnt comparing anyone to Shaq ..
Blake has absolutely had a comparable career to Pau ...i woild give Gasol the edge but at both their peaks a case can be easily made for Griffin who has two career highlight dunks on Pau ...even if one was a not called offensive foul. Agsin even if your argument is Kobe won becsuse of his versatile frontline ...we aint even asking gor Cp3 to rang ...all we are asking of Paul is to make the WCF. Dwill made it with Milsap and Boozer, Kiwi with Lasoftus and past his prime Gasol, Harden with Dwight etc
Stop makibg excuses he overdribbles and in the playoffs he is all world in games 1-4 but found wanting in games 5-7.

I know you are not as stupid as saying highlight dunks would factor into evaluation of players careers, so I'm not going to even acknowledge that, otherwise you'd start talking about all star game blocks as evidence of player dominance.

As for CP3, I agree he over dribbles and makes it easy for good teams with a defensive plan to stop them in the playoffs but you can't use other players under totally different circumstances as evidenced of anything. DWill did it once with jerry Sloan as his coach and went through the rockets and a Cinderella warriors. The mavs would have destroyed them if they didn't choked in the first round.

Kawhi is clearly one of the best players the last few years and the league is incredibly weak other than the top2 or 3 teams in the league, it's easy to make conference finals as LONG as you can avoid those teams. Same with harden.

I think CP3 will never win a championship as the best player of the team, but his style of play is way too ball dominant for him to be a second fiddle player. We will see how he shares the ball with harden this year, I want to see how dantoni can make the two share the ball this year.

[Killakobe81]

I know you are not as stupid as saying highlight dunks would factor into evaluation of players careers, so I'm not going to even acknowledge that, otherwise you'd start talking about all star game blocks as evidence of player dominance.

As for CP3, I agree he over dribbles and makes it easy for good teams with a defensive plan to stop them in the playoffs but you can't use other players under totally different circumstances as evidenced of anything. DWill did it once with jerry Sloan as his coach and went through the rockets and a Cinderella warriors. The mavs would have destroyed them if they didn't choked in the first round.

Kawhi is clearly one of the best players the last few years and the league is incredibly weak other than the top2 or 3 teams in the league, it's easy to make conference finals as LONG as you can avoid those teams. Same with harden.

I think CP3 will never win a championship as the best player of the team, but his style of play is way too ball dominant for him to be a second fiddle player. We will see how he shares the ball with harden this year, I want to see how dantoni can make the two share the ball this year.

the dunks wete ancedotal ...i said comparable careers...and I stand by that ..

[apalisoc_9]

lonzo also said 21savage album better than jayz 4:44
hope plays better than his music choices ...
his girl is fine though...always liked female soccer players the non dyke ones ..

Every basic white girl for a nikka is hot though...:lmao

[ambchang]

the dunks wete ancedotal ...i said comparable careers...and I stand by that ..

MVPau > griffin and it's not even close. Individual accolades and statistics shows as such.

[DMC]

I know you are not as stupid as saying highlight dunks would factor into evaluation of players careers, so I'm not going to even acknowledge that, otherwise you'd start talking about all star game blocks as evidence of player dominance.

As for CP3, I agree he over dribbles and makes it easy for good teams with a defensive plan to stop them in the playoffs but you can't use other players under totally different circumstances as evidenced of anything. DWill did it once with jerry Sloan as his coach and went through the rockets and a Cinderella warriors. The mavs would have destroyed them if they didn't choked in the first round.

Kawhi is clearly one of the best players the last few years and the league is incredibly weak other than the top2 or 3 teams in the league, it's easy to make conference finals as LONG as you can avoid those teams. Same with harden.

I think CP3 will never win a championship as the best player of the team, but his style of play is way too ball dominant for him to be a second fiddle player. We will see how he shares the ball with harden this year, I want to see how dantoni can make the two share the ball this year.
I was following you until you said it's easy to make the conference finals because the league is weak. I could see that if 3 NBA teams won 10+ more games than any other team, but then you'd be saying that, for those three teams it's easy to make the conference finals. So i am not sure what you're saying. Is it easy for the weak teams to make the conference finals? Or are there more non-weak teams who can easily make the conference finals? There should only be 4 teams who can easily make the conference finals. The rest will have to lose.

[ambchang]

I was following you until you said it's easy to make the conference finals because the league is weak. I could see that if 3 NBA teams won 10+ more games than any other team, but then you'd be saying that, for those three teams it's easy to make the conference finals. So i am not sure what you're saying. Is it easy for the weak teams to make the conference finals? Or are there more non-weak teams who can easily make the conference finals? There should only be 4 teams who can easily make the conference finals. The rest will have to lose.
It's easy as in if you are on one of the three teams. The rest of the teams were horrible.

[Killakobe81]

Every basic white girl for a nikka is hot though...:lmao

she looks good to me far from basic and i aint what most would consider a nikka though i do have some african heritage in my blood line ... my grandla was from Honduras my mom speaks fluent Spanish ...i only dated one white girl but she was closer ti basic but her huge breasts and pretty eyes sucked me in.

[Killakobe81]

MVPau > griffin and it's not even close. Individual accolades and statistics shows as such.

individual accolades like what?
both won roty
both are more 2nd team all nba than first team caliber.
blake has the same number of all nba teams made as Pau ...in less seasons.
he averages more pts, assists (surprising Pau considered one of the best passing bigs ever), better FG% more steals same reb average for their careers
Pau has him beat on Fts and 3pt% and blocks
i think blake (2014?) has finished higher in mvp voting than Pau ever has ..

not disagreeing Pau had the better career ...
said they are comparable and at bothpeaks a case can be made Blake is better

[StrengthAndHonor]

Every basic white girl for a nikka is hot though...:lmao
Oh come on man, for a latina, his girl is fucking gorgeous.

[Killakobe81]

Oh come on man, for a latina, his girl is fucking gorgeous.

i didnt know what shec was but she is cute to me ...nice curves, cute face maybe not gorgeous but legit pretty.
dudes on here acting like they can do better when they couldnt even had her plain jane asian friend on the show ...

[DMC]

i didnt know what sheceas but she is cute ro me nice curves cute face maybe not gorgeous but legit pretty.
dudes on here acting lime they can do better when maby couldnt even nad her plain jane asian friend on the show ...

Jesus fuck... use spell check

[ambchang]

individual accolades like what?
both won roty
both are more 2nd team all nba than first team caliber.
blake has the same number of all nba teams made as Pau ...in less seasons.
he averages more pts, assists (surprising Pau considered one of the best passing bigs ever), better FG% more steals same reb average for their careers
Pau has him beat on Fts and 3pt% and blocks
i think blake (2014?) has finished higher in mvp voting than Pau ever has ..

not disagreeing Pau had the better career ...
said they are comparable and at bothpeaks a case can be made Blake is better

Things like all-star games are very similar, but MVPau competed against Garnett, Duncan, Shaq, Webber, Dirk, young Lebron, end of peak Pierce, Yao Ming, and over the hill Shaq for those All-NBA and all-star teams, Griffin was competing against a bunch of over the hill legends.

Blake made all-nba 2nd team the same year Kevin Love and Bynum did. Sure there were greats like James and Durant, or even a peak Howard (underrated at his peak), but it's extremely top heavy. I mean, for Pete's sake, Duncan got on All-NBA 1st team in 2013 when he was like 36 years old.

It is just a different era during the transition of a big dominated to a small dominated league.

The most important thing though, is that MVPau has shown to be able to lead two championship teams in most advanced statistics. Something Griffin will likely never be able to accompslish.

MVPau was the better passer, team defender, low post scorer, and overall leader. Griffin became a better outside shooter eventually, but MVPau is really good at that as well. Griffin is also better off the dribble and clearly a better finisher on the break.

In terms of individual accomplishments, MVPau > Griffin.

[Killakobe81]

Things like all-star games are very similar, but MVPau competed against Garnett, Duncan, Shaq, Webber, Dirk, young Lebron, end of peak Pierce, Yao Ming, and over the hill Shaq for those All-NBA and all-star teams, Griffin was competing against a bunch of over the hill legends.

Blake made all-nba 2nd team the same year Kevin Love and Bynum did. Sure there were greats like James and Durant, or even a peak Howard (underrated at his peak), but it's extremely top heavy. I mean, for Pete's sake, Duncan got on All-NBA 1st team in 2013 when he was like 36 years old.

It is just a different era during the transition of a big dominated to a small dominated league.

The most important thing though, is that MVPau has shown to be able to lead two championship teams in most advanced statistics. Something Griffin will likely never be able to accompslish.

MVPau was the better passer, team defender, low post scorer, and overall leader. Griffin became a better outside shooter eventually, but MVPau is really good at that as well. Griffin is also better off the dribble and clearly a better finisher on the break.

In terms of individual accomplishments, MVPau > Griffin.

You said it was not close. i proved it was ...
we both agree that Pau had the bettter career but also had the better team he had Kobe, Blake had Paul
You in fact, harped on what a versatile front line Lakers had plus he had Kobe so of course pau had more playoff success, duh.
Both played with ball dominant guards ...same career boards similar Fg% ...comparable.
as great as a passer as Pau is Blake averages more assists.

but lets take it back to CP3 ...if you swap Pau and Blake does he make the WCF?
because thay was my point he had help even if Pau is better than Blake or Bynum than deandre ...
he had enough help to make wcf.

in fact you made my case for me ... so since it was easier for Blake to make all nba in his era oppsed to Pau's
Shouldnt a trip to the WCF be easier cp3 with Duncan and Dirk in decline?

[ambchang]

You said it was not close. i proved it was ...
we both agree that Pau had the bettter career but also had the better team he had Kobe, Blake had Paul
You in fact, harped on what a versatile front line Lakers had plus he had Kobe so of course pau had more playoff success, duh.
Both played with ball dominant guards ...same career boards similar Fg% ...comparable.
as great as a passer as Pau is Blake averages more assists.

but lets take it back to CP3 ...if you swap Pau and Blake does he make the WCF?
because thay was my point he had help even if Pau is better than Blake or Bynum than deandre ...
he had enough help to make wcf.

in fact you made my case for me ... so since it was easier for Blake to make all nba in his era oppsed to Pau's
Shouldnt a trip to the WCF be easier cp3 with Duncan and Dirk in decline?

Other than he fact that the wing positions were loaded and the league totally changed the rules to make it a perimeter game.

MVPau was better and it's not close. Leading a team to two championships is something griffin is not likely to ever do.

Swap Blake with MVPau wouldn't do much but the issue isn't the players. I really believe it's Rivera.

[Killakobe81]

Other than he fact that the wing positions were loaded and the league totally changed the rules to make it a perimeter game.

MVPau was better and it's not close. Leading a team to two championships is something griffin is not likely to ever do.

Swap Blake with MVPau wouldn't do much but the issue isn't the players. I really believe it's Rivera.

stop revising history.
Pau didnt lead any championship teams.
So the crux of your argument is based on a fallacy based on selection biased data
only on Spurstalk is Pau raised to such heights. on LG he is underrated.
Really would love to hear an unbiased opinion from a solid poster.
Amb is not that man obviously ...

Pau had great post skills a high bball IQ great passer ...but he is not far better than prime Blake thats bullshit.

[Clipper Nation]

stop revising history. Pau didnt lead any championship teams.:lmao

[Killakobe81]

:lmao

the other Pau acolyte ...
wanna bash Kobe so bad gotta prop Gasol. Whatever Kobe debates are so 2012 ...
but we already know you and Amb are in agreement on that bullshit ...both are delusional but hey enjoy idgaf.

So why not weigh in here CN is Pau so much better than Blake ...that its not even close?!

[ambchang]

stop revising history.
Pau didnt lead any championship teams.
So the crux of your argument is based on a fallacy based on selection biased data
only on Spurstalk is Pau raised to such heights. on LG he is underrated.
Really would love to hear an unbiased opinion from a solid poster.
Amb is not that man obviously ...

Pau had great post skills a high bball IQ great passer ...but he is not far better than prime Blake thats bullshit.

You can go all emo and stuff. But numbers don't lie.

[Killakobe81]

You can go all emo and stuff. But numbers don't lie.

lol pot meet kettle
kobe had the higher per scored more pts ...
plus according to my math 2>0 Finals mvps
those numbets dont lie ...
but you are off topic we talking cp3, blake and Pau are secodary ... your obsession is irrelevant and has been for 5 years

[ambchang]

lol pot meet kettle
kobe had the higher per scored more pts ...
plus according to my math 2>0 Finals mvps
those numbets dont lie ...
but you are off topic we talking cp3, blake and Pau are secodary ... your obsession is irrelevant and has been for 5 years

FMVP are subjective measures as they are voted by people. It really is a shame as Kobe is the only FMVP in 30 years not to lead his own team in WS, and he got it twice! In some ways, I admire his ability to manipulate the narrative to steal credit for some body else's work, it's not unlike how the corporate world works really.

Buddy, you wanted to go down this route. CP3 numbers are great, but his style of play leads to less than expected playoff results, we both agree on that. The thing is that he really never had the team to take him to the promised land (mostly a coach to tell him to actually share the playmaking).

[Clipper Nation]

It's sad that a so-called "Laker fan" can't appreciate a player who led the Lakers to two rings, tbh. MVPau was a legend.

[Killakobe81]

FMVP are subjective measures as they are voted by people. It really is a shame as Kobe is the only FMVP in 30 years not to lead his own team in WS, and he got it twice! In some ways, I admire his ability to manipulate the narrative to steal credit for some body else's work, it's not unlike how the corporate world works really.

Buddy, you wanted to go down this route. CP3 numbers are great, but his style of play leads to less than expected playoff results, we both agree on that. The thing is that he really never had the team to take him to the promised land (mostly a coach to tell him to actually share the playmaking).

You missed the point again.
I never said he needed to lead them to the promised land just the WCF.
Not everyone can rang ...but an all time great PG cant reach a conference Finals?!
Nash made one with Amare in the Blake/Pau role ...
Dwill the same with milsap and or Boozer and he is not a good a PG as either guy.

[Killakobe81]

It's sad that a so-called "Laker fan" can't appreciate a player who led the Lakers to two rings, tbh. MVPau was a legend.

you aint worth half a bar ...

[Killakobe81]

FMVP are subjective measures as they are voted by people. It really is a shame as Kobe is the only FMVP in 30 years not to lead his own team in WS, and he got it twice! In some ways, I admire his ability to manipulate the narrative to steal credit for some body else's work, it's not unlike how the corporate world works really.

Buddy, you wanted to go down this route. CP3 numbers are great, but his style of play leads to less than expected playoff results, we both agree on that. The thing is that he really never had the team to take him to the promised land (mostly a coach to tell him to actually share the playmaking).

you like win shares some prefer PER ...
kobe per was higher in both finals iirc but again off subject
btw Chris paul is 5th all time in per
just behind Shaq and ahead of ducan yet everyone else in the top 10 led title teams ...much less a conference Finals trip ...except he and recent Hofer McGrady ...smh.

[Killakobe81]

My bad barkley hasnt rang either he is also all time top 2
10 in PER but he led a team to wcf and nba finals ...
really only paul and mcgrady have been truly great player who failed to lead a team to the conference Finals in recent memory.
Even Melo led one ...

[ambchang]

You missed the point again.
I never said he needed to lead them to the promised land just the WCF.
Not everyone can rang ...but an all time great PG cant reach a conference Finals?!
Nash made one with Amare in the Blake/Pau role ...
Dwill the same with milsap and or Boozer and he is not a good a PG as either guy.

Dude, you have to be kidding to compare those Nash Suns teams to the CP3 Clippers team. The Suns revolutionized NBA offense from 05 onwards, similar to what Daly did to defenses in the 90s, and the reason wasn't just Nash, it's that they had players who all can shoot, dribble and pass. Those Suns team, and in particular D'antoni, are very underrated, especially here at ST.

Dwill really was just a beneficiary of circumstances, they just had to thank the Warriors for knocking out the Mavs that year (and the Spurs had to thank the Warriors as well).

Players like Nique, TMac, Mullin never had much playoff success either. Even Hakeem, Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, and Garnett didn't get much team success until they got the right team.

[ambchang]

you like win shares some prefer PER ...
kobe per was higher in both finals iirc but again off subject
btw Chris paul is 5th all time in per
just behind Shaq and ahead of ducan yet everyone else in the top 10 led title teams ...much less a conference Finals trip ...except he and recent Hofer McGrady ...smh.

PER is way overrated. I am not even sure why it's an advanced stat. It's a bunch of traditional stats given certain weights to create one single number.

Players like Bowen had horrible PER, but he was most definitely integral to the success of the Spurs in the mid-00s. Westbrook had the 16th best PER season last year (Wilt, Jordan, Lebron, Curry, Davis, Robinson and Shaq were the only players who had better PER seasons), but there is no way Westbrook season last year was better than Bird's 87, Magic 88, Duncan's 03, or even Garnett's 04 seasons. On that note, Anthony Davis? Really?

[Killakobe81]

PER is way overrated. I am not even sure why it's an advanced stat. It's a bunch of traditional stats given certain weights to create one single number.

Players like Bowen had horrible PER, but he was most definitely integral to the success of the Spurs in the mid-00s. Westbrook had the 16th best PER season last year (Wilt, Jordan, Lebron, Curry, Davis, Robinson and Shaq were the only players who had better PER seasons), but there is no way Westbrook season last year was better than Bird's 87, Magic 88, Duncan's 03, or even Garnett's 04 seasons. On that note, Anthony Davis? Really?

its an advanced metric. Winshares is too.
Jordan is #1 lebron is top 3 Duncan hakeem shaq etc are top 10 ...

[Clipper Nation]

The whole "they didn't face the Mavs" card to dismiss D-Will's WCF appearance is played out, tbh. The Mavs back then were huge playoff chokers - that's why they lost to the Warriors in the first place. Even if they had avoided that chokejob, it's not like they were somehow incapable of losing to a Jazz team that had won the season series against them that year.

Put CP0 on that Jazz team instead of D-Will and it's questionable that they even get past the Rockets, let alone make it to the WCF.

[ambchang]

its an advanced metric. Winshares is too.
Jordan is #1 lebron is top 3 Duncan hakeem shaq etc are top 10 ...

PER really is a weighted average of traditional metrics. WS, at least since the late 70s, is based on offensive and defensive ratings, totally different concepts.

[ambchang]

The whole "they didn't face the Mavs" card to dismiss D-Will's WCF appearance is played out, tbh. The Mavs back then were huge playoff chokers - that's why they lost to the Warriors in the first place. Even if they had avoided that chokejob, it's not like they were somehow incapable of losing to a Jazz team that had won the season series against them that year.

Put CP0 on that Jazz team instead of D-Will and it's questionable that they even get past the Rockets, let alone make it to the WCF.

The Mavs actually did very well in 06, up until the last few games in the Finals when DWade couldn't be touched. That is one of the biggest robbery in NBA history. Warriors was a bad matchup for the Mavs, you can't really have one or two instances define an entire team, you have to have a consistent history of chokery like Karl Malone has before you can get that label.

The Jazz making the WCF that year was a joke, the Spurs essentially destroyed them. My recollection is that none of the games were particularly close.

[Killakobe81]

PER really is a weighted average of traditional metrics. WS, at least since the late 70s, is based on offensive and defensive ratings, totally different concepts.

translation: "I like my advanced metrics more than yours ...because it fits my agenda/natrative".

[ambchang]

translation: "I like my advanced metrics more than yours ...because it fits my agenda/natrative".

That isn't the case, I didn't develop those advanced stats, it just shows the general ignorance you have what those stats really mean.

You can create an advanced stat called KKRULZ and it is scoring * 2, but it ultimately just favour scorers. PER is the same way, where it's just an weighted average of traditional stats, or how TS% favours perimeter players.

But that's a moot point, because we are not talking about just WS, we are talking about D-Rating, O-Rating, WS, VORP, BPM, and a whole bunch of other stuff, and guess what? MVPau led a larger number of those stats on those Laker championship teams.

[Killakobe81]

That isn't the case, I didn't develop those advanced stats, it just shows the general ignorance you have what those stats really mean.

You can create an advanced stat called KKRULZ and it is scoring * 2, but it ultimately just favour scorers. PER is the same way, where it's just an weighted average of traditional stats, or how TS% favours perimeter players.

But that's a moot point, because we are not talking about just WS, we are talking about D-Rating, O-Rating, WS, VORP, BPM, and a whole bunch of other stuff, and guess what? MVPau led a larger number of those stats on those Laker championship teams.

He was a key member of those teams ...a high level #2 who you think is a #1 ... because some stats tell you so. Got it. Can we move on?
None of that has anything to do with Chris Paul ...who still has not led a team to the WCF ...and you are making excuses for him ...got that too. Doesnt take a Gasol caliber #2 to make the WCF other lessor players than CP3 have done so ...with less.
Apparently he cannot ...

[Killakobe81]

That isn't the case, I didn't develop those advanced stats, it just shows the general ignorance you have what those stats really mean.

You can create an advanced stat called KKRULZ and it is scoring * 2, but it ultimately just favour scorers. PER is the same way, where it's just an weighted average of traditional stats, or how TS% favours perimeter players.

But that's a moot point, because we are not talking about just WS, we are talking about D-Rating, O-Rating, WS, VORP, BPM, and a whole bunch of other stuff, and guess what? MVPau led a larger number of those stats on those Laker championship teams.

why cant you have an adult conversation without name calling? we were having a good debate but you had to use a loser's move ...shame.

[ambchang]

He was a key member of those teams ...a high level #2 who you think is a #1 ... because some stats tell you so. Got it. Can we move on?
None of that has anything to do with Chris Paul ...who still has not led a team to the WCF ...and you are making excuses for him ...got that too. Doesnt take a Gasol caliber #2 to make the WCF other lessor players than CP3 have done so ...with less.
Apparently he cannot ...

I actually do not think he is the #1, I think Kobe is the #1 in the traditional sense as the face of the franchise, but from a productivity perspective, MVPau was #1. It's just rare for a face of the franchise of a championship winning team not to lead the team in most, if not all, advanced metrics, comical even. MVPau is too laid back and doesn't sought the limelight to be the #1 in LA land, the place all about self-promotion and ego stroking, he can carry a franchise as the statistical leader and as the main catalyst, and he has proven it.

As for CP3, yeah, he didn't make the WCF, and I have said it multiple times, he has to own up to it because he dominates the ball and that makes it easy to stop in the playoffs by good teams with defensive plan. Sure it doesn't take MVPau level player to make the WCF, but like you said, lessor player has done so with less, so you just stated that WCF is no gauge of a player's greatness, because lesser players have done it. So thank you for making my point.



why cant you have an adult conversation without name calling? we were having a good debate but you had to use a loser's move ...shame.

Where is the name calling? Since when did you turn so emo? Need some foundation and dark eye-shadow?

[Killakobe81]

I actually do not think he is the #1, I think Kobe is the #1 in the traditional sense as the face of the franchise, but from a productivity perspective, MVPau was #1. It's just rare for a face of the franchise of a championship winning team not to lead the team in most, if not all, advanced metrics, comical even. MVPau is too laid back and doesn't sought the limelight to be the #1 in LA land, the place all about self-promotion and ego stroking, he can carry a franchise as the statistical leader and as the main catalyst, and he has proven it.

As for CP3, yeah, he didn't make the WCF, and I have said it multiple times, he has to own up to it because he dominates the ball and that makes it easy to stop in the playoffs by good teams with defensive plan. Sure it doesn't take MVPau level player to make the WCF, but like you said, lessor player has done so with less, so you just stated that WCF is no gauge of a player's greatness, because lesser players have done it. So thank you for making my point.




Where is the name calling? Since when did you turn so emo? Need some foundation and dark eye-shadow?

No Im not making your case you making mine ...
I never said it was a standard of greatness ...just saying that for a player of his caliber ...who many consider..the best PG of thisceta some even said he was the best closer since Jordan :lol ti not to do so... as the best or 2nd best player on his team is shameful for a guy that is loved by adanced metrics and not just PER elehich you detest.

Wont address your overating of Pau after this i said ...my piece ...and I dont want to attack a player i actually like.Pau is great. I just dont see the huge gap between he and Blake that you do. Pau is better had the better career but numbers show they are comparable ..but like Cp3 . .he had an even better teammate and he has to own part of the blame for their 2nd round playoff flops.

Calling somone ignorant who disagrees with you is immature and i thought with our history we were past that. I didnt cry i didnt put you on ignore like i have done with a few posters here who bring no redeeming value to a debate name call and deflect but that shit should be beneath you at least when debating with me. Not upset just disappointed...its a common tactic of posters on the losing side You are not a loser just pulled a im losing this argument move...just saying.

[ambchang]

No Im not making your case you making mine ...
I never said it was a standard of greatness ...just saying that for a player of his caliber ...who many consider..the best PG of thisceta some even said he was the best closer since Jordan :lol ti not to do so... as the best or 2nd best player on his team is shameful for a guy that is loved by adanced metrics and not just PER elehich you detest.

If it is that important, why would there ever be a player you view to be lesser than Paul who would make the WCF with lesser teammates? By default, that lesser player would be greater than CP3 by you, which would not be labelled a lesser player in the first place.

I have always expressed my disdain for PER, it is a lazy weighted average stat. It's like saying a person who likes traditional stats not putting equal weights on FG% and REB when evaluating a player is self-contradictory.


Wont address your overating of Pau after this i said ...my piece ...and I dont want to attack a player i actually like.Pau is great. I just dont see the huge gap between he and Blake that you do. Pau is better had the better career but numbers show they are comparable ..but like Cp3 . .he had an even better teammate and he has to own part of the blame for their 2nd round playoff flops.

You mean Blake has to own the 2nd round flops?


Calling somone ignorant who disagrees with you is immature and i thought with our history we were past that. I didnt cry i didnt put you on ignore like i have done with a few posters here who bring no redeeming value to a debate name call and deflect but that shit should be beneath you at least when debating with me. Not upset just disappointed...its a common tactic of posters on the losing side You are not a loser just pulled a im losing this argument move...just saying.

Saying you are ignorant on advanced metrics is not saying you are ignorant. And you have shown your ignorance on the subject on advanced metrics by drawing equivalency on different advanced stats with different levels of complexity just because they are lumped together as advanced stats. It's like giving equal say to a guy who votes based on meticulous research vs. another guy who just liked the name of a candidate. Oh wait, that's what democracy is all about.

[Killakobe81]

If it is that important, why would there ever be a player you view to be lesser than Paul who would make the WCF with lesser teammates? By default, that lesser player would be greater than CP3 by you, which would not be labelled a lesser player in the first place.

I have always expressed my disdain for PER, it is a lazy weighted average stat. It's like saying a person who likes traditional stats not putting equal weights on FG% and REB when evaluating a player is self-contradictory.



You mean Blake has to own the 2nd round flops?



Saying you are ignorant on advanced metrics is not saying you are ignorant. And you have shown your ignorance on the subject on advanced metrics by drawing equivalency on different advanced stats with different levels of complexity just because they are lumped together as advanced stats. It's like giving equal say to a guy who votes based on meticulous research vs. another guy who just liked the name of a candidate. Oh wait, that's what democracy is all about.

what a bad analogy. Wait, because you dont like PER its the equivalent of an uninformed vote? I dont have to be ignorant of stats to to compare them. Are you ignorant of PER because you dismiss its value? Hollinger the chimp and creator of that formula may disagree with your dismissal.You can spin it however you want win shares, VoRP and PER are all advanced metrics.

ignoring the rest of this but of course Blake has to share some blame in the playoff losses for the Clips ...iirc his win share and PER are both down for Blake in the playoffs. But paul is the best player and has enough of a cast to at least make the WCF.

For CP3 making WCF isnt the standard but a minimun expectation ...fir a player of his stature.

[AlexJones]

Literally the 3rd best PG to ever play

[Killakobe81]

Since you want to talk win shares vs PER
Karl Malone is 4th all time in WS ahead of Duncan, LeBron and Jordan ...
in what fucking world is Karl Malone ahead of those guys?!
You are right PER has its faults .. i have no clue who Neil Johnston but he has a top 10 PER ..but despite its laziness it has
1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Shaq
Malone he is 15th behind Duncan & Magic


Truth is both these metrics are flawed in sone ways. my point is you keep pulling out winshares for a stupid argument (Kobe) that no one cares about anymore ... and is off topic.And when career winshares implies malone is better than magic Duncan and Jordan in the first 5 career rankings you lose me.
Fuck win shares and fuck PER too for that matter . by themselves hardly any better than espn rank.

[Killakobe81]

Literally the 3rd best PG to ever play

Bullshit.
magic kidd stockton steph and GP all have cases over Paul ...he is in a top 5 not sure he makes top 3

[Killakobe81]

isiah too should be mentioned.

For the record Paul has had the better career than GP and kidd for example
but no way I would choose Paul over Kidd in both their primes.

[ambchang]

what a bad analogy. Wait, because you dont like PER its the equivalent of an uninformed vote? I dont have to be ignorant of stats to to compare them. Are you ignorant of PER because you dismiss its value? Hollinger the chimp and creator of that formula may disagree with your dismissal.You can spin it however you want win shares, VoRP and PER are all advanced metrics.

Not entirely sure if you understand what ignorance of a subject means. I am dismissing something because I understood it and drew conclusions that it is bad. If person A says Drake sucks because the next person said so, he is ignorant on the subject or rappers and just decide to chime in. If person B went through the lyrics, studied the beats, went through the history of rap, understood Drake's influences, and drew the conclusion that Drake sucks, he is not ignorant of the subject, but just shows that he doesn't like Drake, he is educated on his conclusion. The proclamation of whether Drake sucks has absolutely no bearing on whether the person making that proclamation is ignorant on the subject or not. In fact, person A can have absolutely no opinion no the subject, but because of his general lack of knowledge on rap, be ignorant on the subject.

PER has the highest number of exceptions, is clearly a weighted average of traditional stats (and the rationale of why those weights were used were iffy at best), so I dismiss the importance of it.


ignoring the rest of this but of course Blake has to share some blame in the playoff losses for the Clips ...iirc his win share and PER are both down for Blake in the playoffs. But paul is the best player and has enough of a cast to at least make the WCF.

For CP3 making WCF isnt the standard but a minimun expectation ...fir a player of his stature.

I agree Blake shares some blame as well. But I put CP3 in TMac and Vince's class. TMac couldn't even make it out of the 1st round, and Vince didn't make ECF in Toronto either (or did he made it once in 2001 in the historically bad East). Garnett made it once with a pretty loaded team (though in the brutal west with the Lakers, Spurs and Kings, not to mention the Mavs). Point is, this is not a binary thing where if someone made the WCF, no matter how many times, regardless of circumstances, he is viewed in better light.

[ambchang]

Since you want to talk win shares vs PER
Karl Malone is 4th all time in WS ahead of Duncan, LeBron and Jordan ...
in what fucking world is Karl Malone ahead of those guys?!
You are right PER has its faults .. i have no clue who Neil Johnston but he has a top 10 PER ..but despite its laziness it has
1. Jordan
2. LeBron
3. Shaq
Malone he is 15th behind Duncan & Magic


Truth is both these metrics are flawed in sone ways. my point is you keep pulling out winshares for a stupid argument (Kobe) that no one cares about anymore ... and is off topic.And when career winshares implies malone is better than magic Duncan and Jordan in the first 5 career rankings you lose me.
Fuck win shares and fuck PER too for that matter . by themselves hardly any better than espn rank.

Maybe it would help if you figure out that WS is a cumulative stat, like scoring total.

David Robinson is #4, CP3 #6, Petit #7, Durant #8, Neil Jonston #9, Barkley #10. Jabbar is only #11, Wade is ranked higher than Duncan, Westbrook over Hakeem, Yao Ming is #22 for Pete's sake over Kobe and Dirk, Blake is over Garnett, inconsistencies are all over the place.

If you want to compare careers through WS, you actually look at the top WS seasons of a player as WS is used to compare individual seasons, and even then, you have to take things into perspective, and has to generally ignore pre-1978 numbers because the calculations are totally different in the old days (similar to PER back then).

Using the top WS seasons, we have (ignoring the old timers):
Jordan, Lebron, Robinson, Durant, Shaq, Garnett, CP3, Robinson, Curry, Duncan, etc ....

While there are exceptions, and WS calculations are starting to heavily favour players who play on teams in eras of high disparity (like the GSW now), you have to look at the overall top seasons as well.

Then there are things like BPM (favours lone stars on bad teams) and VORP (favours players with extremely high usage rates), which again are directionally correct, and you form a good view of a player's effectiveness.

The sad thing is, players have learned to game the system, and we are seeing that Westbrook, Harden, and Durant are doing their bestest to get artificially high numbers in those areas.

[ambchang]

Bullshit.
magic kidd stockton steph and GP all have cases over Paul ...he is in a top 5 not sure he makes top 3

My list:
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Zeke
4. Oscar
5. West (unless he's a shooting guard)
6. Kidd
7. Payton
8. Curry
9. CP3
10. Clyde
11. Nash

5-11 are very close, you can pretty much switch them any way you want.

[Killakobe81]

My list:
1. Magic
2. Stockton
3. Zeke
4. Oscar
5. West (unless he's a shooting guard)
6. Kidd
7. Payton
8. Curry
9. CP3
10. Clyde
11. Nash

5-11 are very close, you can pretty much switch them any way you want.

good list never saw Clyde West or Oscar

[lefty]

:lmao at Stockton ahead of Zeke

[Killakobe81]

:lmao at Stockton ahead of Zeke

i also prefer Zeke but csnt fault him for one spot ...

[ambchang]

:lmao at Stockton ahead of Zeke

I always think Zeke is a little overrated due to the b2bs. Daly, Laimbeer and dumars didn't get enough credit. You team zeke with that choker Malone and he wouldn't have won squat either.

[lefty]

I always think Zeke is a little overrated due to the b2bs. Daly, Laimbeer and dumars didn't get enough credit. You team zeke with that choker Malone and he wouldn't have won squat either.
I agree, Zeke did have a better team, there is no debating that.

And Stockton was great, but Isiah was better, no question

[Killakobe81]

I agree, Zeke did have a better team, there is no debating that.

And Stockton was great, but Isiah was better, no question

i think he is too but some of that was he destroyed Stock when they played so much so The faghot ass mailman cheapshotted him and busted his forehead ...not just the back2back and though he had the better team and rang you can argue that none of Zeke's teammates were as good as Malone and he also had a HOF coach in Sloan.

[Killakobe81]

Maybe it would help if you figure out that WS is a cumulative stat, like scoring total.

David Robinson is #4, CP3 #6, Petit #7, Durant #8, Neil Jonston #9, Barkley #10. Jabbar is only #11, Wade is ranked higher than Duncan, Westbrook over Hakeem, Yao Ming is #22 for Pete's sake over Kobe and Dirk, Blake is over Garnett, inconsistencies are all over the place.

If you want to compare careers through WS, you actually look at the top WS seasons of a player as WS is used to compare individual seasons, and even then, you have to take things into perspective, and has to generally ignore pre-1978 numbers because the calculations are totally different in the old days (similar to PER back then).

Using the top WS seasons, we have (ignoring the old timers):
Jordan, Lebron, Robinson, Durant, Shaq, Garnett, CP3, Robinson, Curry, Duncan, etc ....

While there are exceptions, and WS calculations are starting to heavily favour players who play on teams in eras of high disparity (like the GSW now), you have to look at the overall top seasons as well.

Then there are things like BPM (favours lone stars on bad teams) and VORP (favours players with extremely high usage rates), which again are directionally correct, and you form a good view of a player's effectiveness.

The sad thing is, players have learned to game the system, and we are seeing that Westbrook, Harden, and Durant are doing their bestest to get artificially high numbers in those areas.

1. I already realized win shares is cumulative ... when you are discussing someone's career should you not consider cumulative stats? I posted the list of career win shares vs PER because the original post in this thread was discussing Chris Paul's career. (hence the title will Chris Paul go down as an underrated legend?)

2. My point lost in the weeds with your Pau unabashed love is that Chris paul had enough help if he is truly as great as PER, hype, win shares etc. to at LEAST make the Conference finals. Is that the end all be all? No. But I do think at the very least its reasonable minimal bar to expect a player with 3 all star team-mates and a highly decorated (also overrated) coach from Pop's tree with the a multiple 6moty winner should be able to accomplish. They beat the Spurs a few years back and had a 3-1 lead on Rox (iirc) and still could not make conference finals. That doesn't concern you a little?

3. Why should I look at peak win share seasons only? When did the discussion switch to peaks? I repeatedly and consistently have been talking careers. You lauded win shares over PER but when I point out how flawed it was career wise 0 now you are changing the focal point of the discussion. I only brought up peaks to point out that Blake had a year considered by some to be top 3-4 MVP worthy. Pau has never had that. Yes the MVP is bullshit and has been for years but you have mentioned Duncan's MVP's in plenty of other threads including a recent one about undeserving MVPs ...you don't get to pick and choose when MVP votes are meaningful or how i should decipher win shares. Stats are not subjective they are numbers. why should I trust an advanced metric that only is good for peak seasons? Why should I trust WS when it cannot even produce a good top 3 list career wise and vastly overrates Karl Malone?

4. Last I agree one of the major problems with metrics now is that the best players are manipulating them. Durant, lebron and Paul should be lauded for trying to be more efficient players but are also chickenshot too for the times (some of this admittedly) it impacts their game. they wont take those end of clock buzzer beaters, stat whoring assists, seeking triple doubles to protect /boost their metrics.

[Killakobe81]

All of the above and I did not call you ignorant :toast

[ambchang]

1. I already realized win shares is cumulative ... when you are discussing someone's career should you not consider cumulative stats? I posted the list of career win shares vs PER because the original post in this thread was discussing Chris Paul's career. (hence the title will Chris Paul go down as an underrated legend?)

PER isn't cumulative then, so by your own definition, you shouldn't use PER to compare careers. And no, it's a combination of both. Robert Parish having many years of good performances isn't necessarily better than, say, Chris Mullin career-wise.


2. My point lost in the weeds with your Pau unabashed love is that Chris paul had enough help if he is truly as great as PER, hype, win shares etc. to at LEAST make the Conference finals. Is that the end all be all? No. But I do think at the very least its reasonable minimal bar to expect a player with 3 all star team-mates and a highly decorated (also overrated) coach from Pop's tree with the a multiple 6moty winner should be able to accomplish. They beat the Spurs a few years back and had a 3-1 lead on Rox (iirc) and still could not make conference finals. That doesn't concern you a little?

Yeah, it does, that's why he will always be a notch below the Isiah Thomases and John Stocktons, or even the Jason Kidds and Gary Paytons, because his style of play does not translate to playoff success. It's similar to what David Robinson and Dirk Nowitzki were as bigs, they need very specific teams built around them to win, but Robinson and Nowitzki got lucky and got those teams.


3. Why should I look at peak win share seasons only? When did the discussion switch to peaks? I repeatedly and consistently have been talking careers. You lauded win shares over PER but when I point out how flawed it was career wise 0 now you are changing the focal point of the discussion. I only brought up peaks to point out that Blake had a year considered by some to be top 3-4 MVP worthy. Pau has never had that. Yes the MVP is bullshit and has been for years but you have mentioned Duncan's MVP's in plenty of other threads including a recent one about undeserving MVPs ...you don't get to pick and choose when MVP votes are meaningful or how i should decipher win shares. Stats are not subjective they are numbers. why should I trust an advanced metric that only is good for peak seasons? Why should I trust WS when it cannot even produce a good top 3 list career wise and vastly overrates Karl Malone?

It would be a number of peaks, not just one season. I don't believe there is one single metric that is representative of a player's career. Competition, team makeup, era of play all factor into the entire conversation. Some of the more extreme examples: If Chris Mullin, David Robinson, Chris Webber, or even Ken Norman played in today's era, their careers would be viewed much more positively than yester-years, where as if you put Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, or even the Buck Williams and Terry Cummings in today's era, they would be significantly less effective due to all the rule changes and restrictions. Conversely, a player like Cousins would be more effective in the 90s, but Durant and Curry will not be.

As for MVP voting, same idea. If your competition is weak, like the late 70s, then MVP voting isn't that impressive. However, if your competition is fierce, like the early 00s, then it counts as something.


4. Last I agree one of the major problems with metrics now is that the best players are manipulating them. Durant, lebron and Paul should be lauded for trying to be more efficient players but are also chickenshot too for the times (some of this admittedly) it impacts their game. they wont take those end of clock buzzer beaters, stat whoring assists, seeking triple doubles to protect /boost their metrics.

It's our own fault in which we overemphasized a player's career based on stats, and I am definitely on the side of over emphasis, which when there is enough mass, created this environment where players knew how to manipulate the narrative to their own benefit. Wilt did it back in the days by stat-whoring (there is no doubt about it), Karl Malone did it by deemphasizing his checkered past and put on a facade of a nice guy, Kobe created this persona of win-above-all-else and "intensity", Garnett had that intensity down pat, Lebron ring chases, Durant and Westbrook is now the new age of advanced stats whoring.

[Killakobe81]

I'm done ...you can enjoy the last word other wise this will never end. just dont bother me with win shares
in future debates its not any better than most metrics and we are good.

[Killakobe81]

MVPau > griffin and it's not even close. Individual accolades and statistics shows as such.

:lmao
:downspin:

[Killakobe81]

this as I said the best PGs ...dont dominate the ball the way he does. He is gifted and i think he makes players better but he doesnt seem to enjoy it as much if he is not the one creating which is why he and Blake did not mesh as well as they should have outside the lob city stuff. its why Blake thrives when Paul gets hurt ...he never truly figured out how to share playmaking.

bump

[ambchang]

:lmao
:downspin:

So five games trump leading a b2b champ in advanced stats for you now. I guess the lakers really have so many rings that those things don’t mean anything to you anymore.

When it was 5>4, it was rings end of story. The when it sewas 5:5 it was who won first and ppg. But now five games trump two championships and longo is great because he racks up
Assists.

:smh.

[ambchang]

So five games trump leading a b2b champ in advanced stats for you now. I guess the lakers really have so many rings that those things don’t mean anything to you anymore.

When it was 5>4, it was rings end of story. The when it sewas 5:5 it was who won first and ppg. But now five games trump two championships and longo is great because he racks up
Assists.

:smh.

So is griffin > MVPau now? A few more games have been played. Time to make a definitely answer based on a dozen games.

[Killakobe81]

So is griffin > MVPau now? A few more games have been played. Time to make a definitely answer based on a dozen games.

this year, yup.
career wise Pau gets the edge as i said ...
again only issue was the not even close ...which metrics show its quite close and in some areas Griffins numbers are better...which considering Blake played for Del Negro and Doc while pau played for Phil dantoni and Pop ...Blake has held his own in ...the regular season.

[ambchang]

this year, yup.
career wise Pau gets the edge as i said ...
again only issue was the not even close ...which metrics show its quite close and in some areas Griffins numbers are better...which considering Blake played for Del Negro and Doc while pau played for Phil dantoni and Pop ...Blake has held his own in ...the regular season.

So it’s relatively close in the rs but MVPau clearly better in the postseason. How is that not MVPau not blowing griffin out of the water career wise?

[Killakobe81]

So it’s relatively close in the rs but MVPau clearly better in the postseason. How is that not MVPau not blowing griffin out of the water career wise?

because griffin has actually been better in regular season ...playoffs?! pau has a significant advantage but he played with Kobe instead of that loser CP0, tbh, fwiw ...:wakeup

[ambchang]

because grifgin has actually been better in regular season ...playoffs?! pau has a significant advantage but he played with Kobe instead of that loser CP0, tbh, fwiw ...:wakeup

Griffin wasn't better in the regular season, you just said "again only issue was the not even close ...which metrics show its quite close and in some areas Griffins numbers are better", as in they are very close from your perspective. With MVPau being much better in the playoffs, it clinches it.

Which brings up the other point, what's the difference who MVPau played with? We are comparing individual careers.

[Killakobe81]

Griffin wasn't better in the regular season, you just said "again only issue was the not even close ...which metrics show its quite close and in some areas Griffins numbers are better", as in they are very close from your perspective. With MVPau being much better in the playoffs, it clinches it.

Which brings up the other point, what's the difference who MVPau played with? We are comparing individual careers.

bump and yes Griffin has ...by PER ...which was the stat i was using to compare ... but whatever ..either way, Griffin dominated the game last night and more importantly won with both guys missing their best teammate ...and to top it all off ...Paul melts down like the playoffs already started ...priceless.
what a phaggot...Having Capela knock on the lockeroom door while he Leads ariza and harden throuhh the back?!
What great leafership skills ...but he is so competitive though!!! Underrated, my ass which was original my point ...Point Gawd ...smh.

[Killakobe81]

Literally the 3rd best PG to ever play

seriously?!!
ok that mskes his 2nd round flops even worse ...
lets look at the third best center, SG, SF, PF of all time and show me the other one just one ...that has failed to make it out the 2nd round of he playoffs in his prime? :lol
admittedly it's arbitrary but only reason its an issue because numbers say Paul is the greatest player to never reach a NBA Finals ...and he is two steps removed from even doing that ...

[ambchang]

bump and yes Griffin has ...by PER ...which was the stat i was using to compare ... but whatever ..either way, Griffin dominated the game last night and more importantly won with both guys missing their best teammate ...and to top it all off ...Paul melts down like the playoffs already started ...priceless.
what a phaggot...Having Capela knock on the lockeroom door while he Leads ariza and harden throuhh the back?!
What great leafership skills ...but he is so competitive though!!! Underrated, my ass which was original my point ...Point Gawd ...smh.

One game at a time. You go girl.

[Killakobe81]

One game at a time. You go girl.

lol we have a whole career of examples ...Paul melting down.
side note:
apparently me calling you or saying you acting feminine a while back ...sticks in your craw ...cuz you keep takibg shots ...mantoman I apologize. You can continue ...but i wont i have matured.
its just bball opinions ill stick to calling out players when they underperform and praise when they do well ...
Blake was also wrong last night but I applaud him for standing up for himself last night...there are plenty of soft ass PFs that should do the same ...

[ambchang]

lol we have a whole career of examples ...Paul melting down.
side note:
apparently me calling you or saying you acting feminine a while back ...sticks in your craw ...cuz you keep takibg shots ...mantoman I apologize. You can continue ...but i wont i have matured.
its just bball opinions ill stick to calling out players when they underperform and praise when they do well ...
Blake was also wrong last night but I applaud him for standing up for himself last night...there are plenty of soft ass PFs that should do the same ...
No question cop3 is bitchmadw but you were comparing griffin to MVPau.

Don’t care what you call me, you can call me a tranny and it’d still be better than a laker fan nowadays.

[LkrFan]

Fast forward to 2021:
1126574206458781696

H:lolust:loln's payr:lolll